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welcome back to how to be a better d m i'm your host justin lewis

here with my brother in arms tanner wayland and today we are being joined by

a very special guest alex areas i hope i'm pronouncing that but we'll

hm

let him introduce himself a little bit in a second the goal of today's show

is to help you tell better stories as u d m sessions of d and

d and obviously we want to immerse ourselves in story and you

oh

want your players to have an extremely positive effect but to immerse yourself or to

have them immerse them it requires a lot of work and how do you do

that so that's the question we're going to talk about today

oh

with alex so just to get started alex tell the audience a little bit about

yourself

sure like you said i'm alex ares i'm the

yeah

co founder

yah

of game play candles it's a scented

ah

candle company

yeah

with sense designed for dan d tabletop adventures i've been a d m of fifth

edition advent

ah

since twenty fourteen

oh

um and my day job

m

is that of a

oh

manufacturing engineer

oh

so whenever i'm producing widgets to sell i feel right at

oh

home at least as much there as i do around gaming temple

well

that's awesome

yeah

m

that's like

yeah

that's like a perfect match it feels like you know

yeah it's a very natural evolution yep

for sure well like i said our topic today is immersion and so the first

question i have and obviously tanner has you know a full

yeah

load of questions

yeah

on his own if you have any question that you'd

yeah

like to talk about filter and bring up the first question

m

i have

m

is where do you start when trying to create more emersion for your players

gosh yeah i think that you

oh

know there's no single prong in the front as it

oh

were around your gaming table but i do like to design my immersion with

okay

my players in mine and

oh

i think as a good d m you're there to sort of chaperone

yeah

and curate

oh

an experience and in a story

yeah

that everyone can

oh

contribute to but being a d m you have this unique opportunity to bring a

little extra pazz to the table so i look at the players and look at

their interest and their characters and i think that's a great place to start

oh awesome could you this might be a little bit hard off the top of

your head

uh

but do you have any examples to kind of show the audience a little bit

ah obol show i mean i could

well sorry not

yeah

metaphorically show the audience through

oh

our work

yeah

sorry

yeah no problem well you know we have a barbarian in the in one of

my campaigns that i had previously deemed

a

part of their back story involved a very specific description of their their life on

the plains as a nomad with their nomadic tribe and um m i found a

yeah

food recipe that you know might be considered that of nomadic people's you know s

like a flat bread so there's no leavening or anything like that so

great

just sort of i made that i'd like to cook a lot of a bit

of a gormand

m

but i made that and just called it you know terra's

yeah

flat bread or whatever and that was her characters

m

you know so

oh

umyeah'just sort of incorporating her character

yeah

into into the night as a

m

whole

m that's

yeah

really

i

cool

love that

yeah

i love that especially because i think that nowadays i don't know

ah

people

oh

kind of expect

m

snacks at a lot

uh

of the gaming like any

ah

time

uh

they come to the table

hm

for a

oh

session but we always think what's

m

easy you know just some snacks from the store you know

hm

mass produce doritos whatever else

m

it is right

yeah

but it's like hey and some people take

yeah

a step further where they actually make

yeah m

like deserts or snacks and

hm

i love that you didn't just be like hey i baked

yeah

bread

oh

joy

yeah

but

yeah

like you were like hey

ah

here's they're from a nomadic tribe like

yeah

this is what they'd be eating

m

let's

yeah

bring

i mean

you into the world

h

and you can even you know you can even take those deritos and just pour

them

yeah

into a bowl and call it something on brand for your adventure and that

oh

just

exactly

creates an extra memory point that makes the night sort of stand out

m

it's true you know

yeah

like

m

i think that

oh

you could take anything and

ah

it would be funny in fact and i think that would be blest to like

come up with a way the

yeah

each random

yeah

snack that gets brought

yeah

somehow

oh

plays into something you

yeah

know

yeah yeah that'd

yeah

be

yah

that's a great that'd be like a great

ah

little tradition to have at the start of any game m

for sure

i know i totally agree

m hm

so i did have i

oh

had another question about

yeah

immersion

m

uh

m

and this is kind of like a little bit of a question about how you

got started

oh

with you know game play candles before you started it did you use a lot

of candles

m

in your game play like

oh

in your sessions so he sat

um

bane

not in my sessions but i was a big fan of scented

oh

candles in general um

course

and then i discovered

oh

the next layer that being fan

yeah

to see inspired scented candles and there

yes

are there are plethera of companies out there doing doing good stuff in that realm

but none of them

oh

were like specific

yeah

to d

i

and d more specific to you know like the classes or the characters or settings

you might find in a d and d adventure

oh

and

hm

since that was already such a big part of my life

oh

just sort of naturally fell into

yeah

it that and i was spending away too much money on

okay

some really nice ended candles so i thought

yeah

yeah

i thought i could do it cheaper and it was good enough that people

good

wanted

idea

them and were interested

m

that's awesome

yeah

m

uh and

yeah

so now

oh

well i'm just curious how often

oh

are you playing d and d nowadays

we have i have a weekly

oh

session i actually met with the group last night

m

and i d m to one shot so our our d

m

m could so i should say i've been forever d m except in the past

i'd say six weeks i've now been a player

oh

character for the first time in like you know

oh

oh

almost nine years

wow

so

and grat

yeah

that's

we'll

it's

a

tell us

that's a big

oh

thing

yeah

you

i

gotta you got to tell us about your character now like

oh

this is

man

like a big thing you know

well as as an engineer obviously

uh

i went with artificer

h

um and so

oh

i am an armor artificer named arturo iron heart

m

and i'm a fifty five year old

yeah

bitter man who has one leg amputated but you can't tell

yeah

because of my armor

oh

ah

and um

uh

and yeah i

uh

now

oh

it's funny one

right

of the things that really stood out to me as a player character instead of

a d

oh

m is you don't

oh

know everything which sounds like you know readily obvious and appa but i made the

mistake of assuming

yeah oh

assuming details of the perceived bad guys and and just went

uh

in swinging and then afterwards

uh

my d

oh

who bless his heart he's ming for the first time and i'd pull

oh

this

ah

but i just go in and

yeah

it was a full murder hobo rampage and it was

uh

like you didn't even ask what they looked like

h

it was like policeman i killed like the town guards

uh

i thought

yeah

they were bandits but anyway yeah

and one of

it

them

is

that

yeah

fun

was the last day before

ye

they retired

m

well

they were

one

yeah

excited

of them

to go home to their family

one of them was the king's

yeah

one of them was the king's brother so that sort of altered

course

the entire

m

arc of the campaign but you know if it's his first time dim i feel

like it's appropriate to throw a little

yeah

murder hobo is you know

yeah

his way keep him

yeah

on his toes

yeah

exactly exactly

yeah

honestly i feel like certain dams would kind of create that scenario on purpose just

to see what the players would do and you know

yeah yeah that's true although you

oh

know once i get to know a group pretty well i fear to give them

enough rope to hang themselves with

yeah

you know

uh

right right it depends

h

yeah

on if you're a nice d m or or a normal

m

d m

uh

but

uh yeah

being in kind of fortunate situation you

yeah

are you know a forever d m who is now

yeah

being a player how

m

does immersion change with the changing roles so what are kind of in your opinion

in a perfect world what are

hm

the responsibilities for players to create immersion or what can they do versus what

oh

does a d m do

yeah that's a great question you know this sort of goes to my general philosophy

oh

on what makes a successful game night i called the game night try facta there's

there's role play there's combat and discovery and i think you actually your podcast mentioned

this in a

oh

previous episode um one of your friends who as a writer i think described

ye

four things who was like combat role play puzzles and scovery

m

or

oh

something

hm

like that

i

yeah

think

yeah

that was rob maybe

i feel like that

yeah

was rob

my

yeah and

yeah

that just really rang true

yeah

with me although i just keep it down to three

oh

output puzzles in discovery because game night tetrahedron just doesn't have

yeah

the same ring to it you know

uh

ah

but but

h yeah

as a player i think role play really falls

yeah

falls on your shoulders not only yourself like an individual player but all the players

there obviously the d m will touch each one of those things and probably controls

combat and a discovery a bit more but for the players now that's that's

yeah

four to six people around the table who's not the d m and they would

create the bulk of the role play if you asked me so in terms of

immersion you know keeping that role play

oh

consistent and at least you

oh

know making the attempt to make you know those fun memories around the table would

be be something you can still control very easily

oh

yeah i like that a lot

oh

because like i think

oh

if a d m doesn't really encourage their players to participate in the role play

and even like prepare things beforehand

hm

then you're just you're putting all of the immersion on yourself as a d m

and that just doesn't work you know same as how

hm

combats are very boring

m

if you know if players aren't bringing

oh

their own energy to it same

hm

for the role playing like right now and there's this is leading up to a

question for you alex but

hm

um

right now

m

yeah

oh

justin we are we're working with rob in fact on on

m

a home brew and i was and we're like as part of it we're like

including d m tips and everything like that for new d ms to kind of

branch out in their style

hm

and h and i had a tip about flash backs or like kind of mental

visions that only are about one player you know

m

and i think i've seen those done a couple different ways i've seen it where

the d m just kind of descry sit and describes everything you know it's like

oh in the vision you are doing your in a cafe and then suddenly a

stranger comes up to you and they say this and you say

oh

that you know and it like play

hm

out everything

a cut scene

and that's a cut scene essentially

yeah

right but and then i've seen the other way where it's

m

a cut scene however they've either informed the player beforehand and the players like they

essentially scripted it to some extent right ah

hm

ah

and or they just or they make it a kind of cut scene or flash

back revision that's interactive

oh

with that player and those are

hm

always so much better in my opinion

yeah yeah

go ahead

i think i think when you're when you are creating key moments in a story's

development i'd be very hesitant to not include the players even it's a little more

work or a little less convenient no one signed up to be a d m

because it's super easy and

m

convenient you know you know so

exactly

uh yeah

m

that that

oh

reminds me of this one

yeah

this one uh thing actually that happened around my table

yeah

where um the group was heading into the final area of a dungeon that had

a demon

yeah

lord in it and each and before we got into the final antechamber we decided

yeah

to take a break that was all planned because during the break i sent out

pre written slacks from the demon to each individual character and that was how i

had a flash back or in this case it was just like a mental umtelechanetic

ye

conversation just one

that's

on one

awesome

with the players where he

right

tried to tempt them to you know betray or

yeah

or what not and drew elements from their back stories

yeah

and everything to

uh

sort of make

h

make things really

ah

difficult for them to choose but yeah that that break lasted a little longer as

i you know tested out

oh

back and forth

uh

but

yeah

but yeah

so

that was

h

good

if we can i'd like to kind of narrow in on this this thing because

you know

hm

i think this is an excellent moment it actually kind of talk about a specific

tool a specific instance so in this instance i'm and your your deming online uh

you have slack channels at right

yeah at the time we were using slack

gotcha

to communicate

and then did you pre write all of these texts or did they kind of

come in the moment how did how did all that work out

so i pre wrote the first contact from the demon lord to them

oh

you know with spelling out the

oh

prose of

oh

betraying your companions and

oh

receiving whatever tempting you no gift or treasure i was offering them but but over

the course of that

yeah

break they would text back and that was the teleconetically

uh

or

uh

telepathically communicating

h yeah

ah

so so that that was all

yeah

genera era that was all organic it was not prescripted

oh that's excellent so i think

h

i like this one particularly because you know we are all attached

yeah

to our phones by the hip or our computers

m

you know as it were

hm

and you have someone missed doing you real time

yep

there's your response and then there's a weight time it feels

hm

very real you know have you guys seen of course you know you probably have

deal or no dial right

sure yep

yeah

so there's the guy up in the booth who's coming up with whatever offer

oh

you know they have they have a software that

yes

comes up with exactly what he

yeah

needs to say but there's a guy up there as you see

hm

him moving around it's his job to sit up there

ah

look like he's writing stuff down picking up a phone and calling

yeah

but it is very immersive and it adds to the mistake of the game you

hm

know other than our computer spout out this number what do you think

yeah oh

so and i know this is this is very myopic it's very focused in on

one particular instance but i think this is a good kind of use case for

immersion how might you kind of replicate this in an in person setting

oh well i should say that that that that previous example we were all in

person but

oh wow

but

but

okay

you

so

also

you know

have a slack

gotcha

active

gotcha

we have a

okay

yeah we slack to communicate outside the game and what not but in this instance

i used it in the game but

excellent

smart

yeah so so

oh

if i understand your question

yeah

you're asking like in person how would you

well well

add to that

i guess yeah like i guess you answered it so you know and in my

mind i'm thinking okay in a break i don't want everyone looking at me you

know texting them all

hm

but i'm guessing you know everyone was going around eating some food talking for a

second they get a ping answer real quick put

yeah

their phone back right

i mean it was obvious everyone got a ping at once you know when i

sent

okay

out the first the first round but people you know when you have the right

set of players they also play the game um

yeah

and so

good

they weren't like

good

meta

ah

gaming outside

yes

you know but yeah you know it's funny one of the main challenges is actually

getting that imersive feeling when you're not me in person i

oh

much prefer the in person games because it's easier at least as a d from

my

ah

standpoint to to bring emersive

yeah

elements in i always view emersion through the lens of the five senses and

h

it's really

m

difficult to bring

yeah

that when everyone's sitting in you know different

yeah

houses

m

in front of a screen so yeah i don't know it's it's much easier i

think

ah

if you have it in person

yeah i agree and

oh

i think that opens up a

oh

you know an important

oh

question which is like which of the senses can you effect over the internet you

know

yeah

like i think sound and that's that's one that i've always had a hard time

with

hm

because like

oh

that's if you're

yeah

let's say

ah

you're using role twenty not everyone's good at like knowing how to likeupfload

oh yeah

some music

yeah

and things like that so i mean when you are i guess my question is

how often do you find yourself running a session just online and what do you

do in those cases

and well you got the wrong guest

oh

tonight for that because i

ah

don't think i've ever run a session on line because my daughter was born in

february of twenty ten so i already had a reason to drop out of my

weekly

yeah

d d and d

uh

games

yep

but then

yep

of course covid hit and so

ah

like

h

all

m

all the all the aftermath of that still

sure

peter dad so i ve partook in a few online sessions of d and d

but i never

yeah

deemed any

sure

of them

sure i guess maybe one question that can help all of us is you know

emersion really hard to kind of nail down and say like i mean it's easy

when you're oh that that was imersive but maybe the question we should ask is

what is not quote unquote immersion or immersive like what do we

i

constantly

like that

see that people do that doesn't actually move the needle maybe

hm well you know i'm almost a little hesitant to bring

oh

this up because i don't want

oh

to deter anyone from trying

m

to bring immersion in whatever form that that would take but and this can become

part of

m

the joke or the running gag and a game but

m yeah

you know there are many d ms where there's

yeah

one p c voice um and you know whether you're a

oh

dairy farmer or a library is the same voice but

oh

i

it's

mean

phil

like

again

i think yeah i think i think that you know there's

yeah

it's the right campaign for that but

yes

if you're you know if you're a d m and you don't want to do

that then it doesn't take i don't think it takes a whole lot of practice

or f to develop three unique voices and that actually goes a long way for

the investment i think you get the most bang out of your book when

m

you're doing that because as a d m you will be

yeah

voicing

yeah

different care actors and so

oh

you can just count on that as one of the skills you should probably develop

so yeah like that would break character or that would break immersion for some folks

around the table but again i don't want to

h

deter i don't

m

want to deter folks from trying

ye

so

yeah

you know

no

any effort should be appreciated by the party

ah

m

yeah

yeah

i agree yeah

hm

and honestly kind of talking to that point

yeah

justin

yeah

i think

yeah

that i think an

yeah

important aspect of immersion is

yeah

what it called i had the word in my head consistency

yeah

thank

yeah

you

ye

but

m yeah

because like

yeah

well i think it's consistency

oh

but then also occasional spikes of effort that's what i would put it because if

yeah

you're consistently playing

yeah

music at key moments like or at the start of your session those kind of

things

oh

are gonna help if you're consistently

hm

having some type of work like a landscape fantasy landscape or even an image an

artistic depiction of certain npcs then that's going to build in you know that unning

dialogue of like hey this is a real world that we need to pretend that

we're in you know

m

versus like doing that maybe in the first session or every like five sessions or

whatever then it's

hm

like it's going to be easy to get out of that because you're not having

the kind of the themes the art the whole vibe

yeah

yeah really hitting

hm

you you know

at's a that's a great point tanner and it reminds me of you know another

one of the senses you can build themes around is sound around different characters

ah

or different settings using the same

m

fantasy music or what not so that that is another thing that gets associated specifically

with that person

yeah

yeah

yeah

absolutely

m

so

m

naturally um being a d m as hard as tough and you know one of

our missions is to help make it easier so open conversation everyone um what top

of the line tools do you know of that would be just the tops in

immersion and then contrast that with what are some cheap or free tools

oh

that help immersion

m

a ton so

oh

full spectrum there

m

um

oh

m

well i think that so in terms of free

yeah

lots of people can or

yeah

d ms should be able

oh

to look around their house and you

yeah

can find a

ah

prop just

oh

of whatever and bringing a prop to the table and letting

yeah

you know the players actually touch and hold and

oh

everyone seeing the exact same thing i think that goes a long way

yeah

especially around puzzles actually so so well

oh

you know you might consider just like props that are easily found to be

i

one of those free things that hat's oppin about helps with

can

immersion

we can we maybe think of like like a quick example maybe a scenario or

something that actually happened again just kind of make it visual for the audience in

a way

yeah

yeah yeah

well one of my adventures

yeah

recently

oh

they came upon a magically locked box and i happened to have a metal box

that my wife

oh

store some jewelry in or what not and so i just described how it was

magically shimmering and they couldn't open it very easily and so they were passing

ye

around the box and thinking about different ways to get it open but you know

still had a tactile thing hold so i think that was

oh

t was very beneficial

i like that

yeah

hm

in one of the campaigns i was in that my cousin was running

oh

for the big main end boss batty he had it's silly but i

m

member it very well

m yeah

he had a giant not a giant but on the board it was giant it

was a squeezy toy for like a

yeah

child that looked like an octopus

m

and

yeah

and it was like it was like a sea god kind of thing so it

worked perfectly

yeah

and he basically he basically created

yeah

it around this toy

oh

because he's like this is what i got and

m

and it stuck in my head you know until this moment

hm

i was like oh this is sick even if it's a cartoonish

m

thing it didn't look really

oh

threatening at all but just

yeah

the size compared to our little minnie's

yeah

you know i thought it was great

that's awesome

wonderful

like a casoluchtoy

it was like it would basically

yeah

look like the cutest

yeah

little octopus

yeah

but then

yeah

you're like could you

m

imagine

yeah

if the sizes were exactly like that that

m

would be terrifying no matter

yeah

how cute and smily

m

it look

yeah

yeah yeah the best miniatures are

oh

the improvised ones for sure

hm

exactly

yeah

hm

that's

yeah

great

honestly that kind of brings up a whole can of worms about minnie's like whether

or not they are immersive or if they're crutch or escape goat and if they

are imersive how do you do them right

hm

what do you guys think

m

yeah i mean to

good

my to my earlier point about just being consistent i think manis are important for

the consistency aspect

m

you know because because you have

yeah

a space a player or or character rather and being able to see them on

that board or in front of you it's just a constant reminder that it's like

hey it's not me just operating some little lip that happens to have numbers attached

i'm like it's this character that i've built so

m

i think

m

it's i don't think it's as big as some people think because some people are

like oh it's so expensive

yeah

or anything but

yeah

it's like you can get some generic ones

hm

and like various types

yeah

and maybe you end up using the same ones for like various the same different

characters over the years but it's still better than just having like a little pan

or something

oh

you know

m

in my opinion

m yeah you know for years

oh

i was a complete theater of the mind purist

m

and you know i went out of my

m

way to find the right phrases and descriptive language to describe

yah

the most mundane things

h

to you know keep folks entertained since i only

yeah

had my words to paint this

hm

picture for them but the a few years ago we did introduce minnie's in the

form of lagos

yeah alex i think we might have lost

okay

you you're frozen

i wasn't sure if i should

yeah

continued speaking but

okay you're back

i can i

okay

can see you now

yeah

okay all right i'm not

m

sure how much you caught that but

m

i'll just i'll

yeah

start at the beginning of my

perfect

perfect

little so i was a theater of the mind purist for many years and i

looked up the language to paint as clear a picture for the party as possible

and you know just was able

hm

to use my words to describe the battle field in the layout

yeah

and then a few years ago we introduced

yeah

lego miniatures on a very generic

yeah

you know grid map and it was better it

yeah

was

uh

for that consistency

uh

reason

yah

you mentioned it was so much clear to everybody

oh

about the layout of the battle field and you can still use all that descriptive

language and tear the mind descript

ye

and so

m

i am a convert

oh

i do believe i do believe

h

that that minnie's are

yeah

are a good thing for the game yeah oh

yeah and and even what you said there about

ah

you know theater of the mind and making sure your language and your words were

impactful i don't want to discount

ah

that at all because i think

hm

some people rely too much on the props and the mines and things like that

oh

and they don't prepare

oh

their wording and their vocabulary as much as they could

oh

hm

and that is like some good language like a

m

nice paragraph written about a setting or to describe a new character or describe a

key moment that that can

hm

yeah

do so much and now if you tie that in with like an image that

you project on a screen and with their mines being present in stuff you know

that can only build on it but i think

hm

the cheapest and most effective way you can bring them in is just preparing what

you're going to say ahead of time you know

oh yeah yeah that's you know when i'm preparing a session i do i put

the font in italics and and whatever it's an italic is something that i will

read you know animatedly um to the grove

hm

but but it's all pre written and prescripted for those key moments like you said

huge

yeah

impact

yeah

hm

i definitely do the same thing and

oh

it also is nice when you do that you can couple it with those that

music from key moments

hm

kind of like we said i think tenor your you know what you said is

probably that the the underscore of tonight's episode just whatever you do if you do

it consistently and maybe build on it to to what you feel you and do

but again consistency your players are going to come to appreciate that and it will

help them kind of get in that role playing mode i think we're just about

out of time so let's leave the listener with one thing that they can try

each of us so think of one thing that you recommend them trying or doing

this week to work on immersing their players and themselves yeah

i'll go to give alex some time to think

perfect

yeah

but

yeah

oh

what i would say

yeah

is kind of make like right out what your ideal right set up would be

and i'm not saying like ideal like oh

m

matt mercer

yeah

you know or

oh

to mention to any kind of set but i'm saying

yah

like what would your realistic yet ideal

oh

set up and then from there kind of work backwards be like okay what could

i do week to week that isn't too much effort you know but can still

give the punch that i'm lookin for and it's better to do that versus kind

of working from the bottom up because i think

hm

that you'll be able to be more creative that way and look at your resources

more istically but also

oh

creatively

excellent and then

nice

alex i'll go and then you can finish up and then also tell people how

to find you support you and see what you're up to after you respond but

i would

yeah

say d m make sure you put yourself on the sacrificial chopping block if anyone

is going to be embarrassed it better be you because you're going to get your

players buying by doing those funny voices or trying that new thing or putting a

puzzle out there that might not make sense if if you kind of sacrifice yourself

your players won't feel

oh

so self conscious and they'll buy into the collective experience in my in my opinion

m

oh

i dig that

yah

that's good advice i have

oh

i have two for you

perfect

perfect

so so i would say just

oh

this week some time

yeah oh

before your our game night go out and buy a buy a bag of almonds

and some olive oil and some spices and go ahead

love it

and find a recipe for spice nuts and

m

call it something

yeah

pertinent to your game

yeah

and your game

yeah

setting that that week it is very straightforward and will

yeah

create positive memories and immersion

m

at your game table

yeah

the next thing i'd recommend

yeah

would be to go ahead and visit game play candles dot um and purchase

yes

one of our fantastic d and d inspired scented

ye

candles we have five cents at the moments that are specific to different environments

oh

and different lasses

right

that that go along with d and d and we have many many more cents

on the horizon

m

that will be coming out

yeah

in different quarters throughout twenty twenty three so

yeah

yeah if not that then at least check us out at instagram

oh

and tik tok at game play candles and we'd love that support and

ah

by the way all your listeners if they use

oh

better dem all capitals

oh

in those spaces if they use better d m at as a code durin check

out at our website they'll get a fifteen per cent discount

yeah

on all of our products

o golden love

oh

that

yes

also also for you listeners i'm looking at the website right now and

m oh

one the websitesfrsheek

oh

i love the

yeah

fire

oh

kind of

thank you

and the banner that's wonderful

yeah

oh

touch

m

second

yeah

i think that the candles they're very nice

yeah

i think that there's i don't know maybe a few years ago

ye

fantasy in being nerves was seen is kind of gaudy

yeah

in certain ways

m

but

hm

i feel like these are very cheek

oh

hm

and i

yeah

love that

thank you we appreciate that we're going for the sheik

eh

premium look and

ah

you

yes

will make that impact if you light one of these up on

yeah

your game table

exactly

m

hm

thank you so much for being here alex also tanner alex did send us some

samples so you and i got to get together and light some of those up

ye

what

um yes

oh

that's amazing

he sent us the

thanks

five

alex

candle sample so

sure

i think the elvan forest gosh i forget the name of the elvan forest

yeah

one was probably my favorite um

hm

m

but anyways thank you again for joining us i uh in conclusion listener you got

to immerse your planers and to do that you got to try everything we say

listen to our podcasts go to dungeon candles dot com i hope i said that

right

game play candles dot com

game play candles

gave yeah

gosh i should have ritten that

uh

go to game play candles

uh

dot com

uh

either way

h ah

if you try these things you're going to e a better dam we're going to

be back next week with another amazing episode thanks again alex

thank

listener

you

until next week let's go ahead and roll initiative i