In this episode, Creative arts curriculum advisor Jackie King and Aboriginal Education Advisor Dominique Higgins are joined by Barkindji Song Woman Nancy Bates to discuss her song "I Belong: As I Walk on My Country" which is the first song to be studied in the Stage 4 unit Bigger than the song. The discussion reveals the story behind the song, and also the permissions and protocols Nancy would like teachers and students to consider when engaging with her song in the classroom.  

The Bigger than the song unit will be published on the Department’s Music 7-10 website in 2026.  

Note: Throughout this podcast terms such as First Nations or Indigenous are used. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred. 

Bigger than the Song: Nancy Bates - Transcript

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the NSW Department of Education's Creative Arts curriculum team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a creative arts curriculum advisor and music subject matter expert.

Dominique Higgins

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman and in a role of Aboriginal education advisor with the Department of Education. Today, we are lucky enough to be joined by Barkindji Song Woman, Nancy Bates, to discuss her beautiful song 'I Belong as I Walk on My Country'. Nancy is known for touring with renowned song man, Uncle Archie Roach, and is committed to writing music that means something to the world as she collaborates across communities.

Jackie King

Nancy's song, 'I Belong as I Walk On My Country' is the first song to be studied in the Stage 4 unit, ‘Bigger Than The Song’ and today we will discuss the story, permissions and protocols for teachers and students to consider when engaging with this beautiful song.

Dominique Higgins

So Yiradhu marang Nancy, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us today.

Nancy Bates: Thank you for having me. What a wonderful, uh, introduction and what a wonderful thing for us to yarn about today.

Jackie King

We are very excited to talk to you about your song today, but before we get into that, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and the role that music has played in your life?

Nancy Bates

Yeah, I think I can tell you that I'm now a grandmother and a song woman. I found that I could write music in my, early thirties and had this beautiful opportunity, through music to meet Uncle Archie Roach, at a NAIDOC ball here in South Australia where I live, I live on Kaurna Country, so I'm about 500 kilometres away from home. I am Barkindji. The Darling River is my Country. I grew up on my grandmother's Country, Wilyakali Country in Broken Hill, but I've been living on Kaurna Country for about 20 years down here, and this is where I found my inner song and a way to deal with some of the hard things that I'd grown up with and some of the things that I was dealing with in life. And as I was growing and learning, I picked up the guitar and found that music is my healing and a big, largely now part of my identity as a song woman. And has taken me all across the world, across communities, and led me to working with the great song man, Uncle Archie Roach for four years, which was just an extraordinary time in my life.

So that's a little bit about me. A Nanna to one beautiful baby girl, Bailey Faye. I have, listeners won't be able to see this, but I have a very large gap of my teeth, and my granddaughter has the same gap and I'm very proud of that. So that's a family trait, it's a Bates family trait, and she's got it so,

you know, I'm concentrating on intergenerational song work, and this song is an example of, you know, creating music that connects us to our identity and to the Country that we all belong to.

Jackie King

Yeah, that's amazing and thank you for sharing, that's beautiful. We've been working really closely with you to include your song, 'I Belong As I Walk on My Country' in this unit of work, and I was wondering if you could tell us why you're happy for us to use your song and why you're happy for your song to be included in this Stage 4 program that's titled ‘Bigger Than the Song’.

Nancy Bates

Having my song included amongst the other songs that you are sharing and gifting to children, I actually feel very emotional about it because, you know, I didn't imagine myself to become the song woman that I am and to write songs that would travel across communities. And I had a really hard, um, upbringing and it meant that music found me late in life, you know?

So for me, the importance of music is, you know, our kids need access to music. The fact that I'm able to share Barkindji Language in this song, sing about Country, write about Country. It's a very simplistic song, but the purpose behind the song is big. It's huge. It's a spiritual purpose for us to connect, to feel that pride. You know, every child, every young person in this Country, and we talk about our kids first, you know, should be holding their head high and walking this Country proud to be traditional owners and custodians of this land that we've been here for over 2,600 generations, still walking that Country. So, this is like also what's really, important about this sharing is that we know through colonisation that we've lost 90% of our traditional song practice. And so, every time an Indigenous person, a First Nations person creates music, it's important to the revival and the continuance of the songs that we still have and the songs that we've created.

All the songs that have been made post colonisation that really tell our history, all of our song practice is really important. In fact, it's absolutely essential to every young person, and we want all Australian children to grow up and feel that sense of love and connection and belonging to this land. We want to do that in partnership and so this relationship between First Nations people, Indigenous people, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in this country and song – it's an offering and a gift and an invitation, and it's a way that we can all join our hands and our hearts and our minds to think about Country and to see ourselves in the context of Country. And that means that we are interconnected and that we are all related.

Dominique Higgins

That's so beautiful, Nancy and that really resonates. The first time I heard your song, well, I'll start by saying it's one of my favourite songs ever. Truly. Like when I listen to it, immediately, I felt a really deep connection to it, and it's so soothing and calming as well. And so whenever I need a moment, I listen to your song, to this song and it's so powerful and we've played it for our children as well, our two daughters, and they love it and they start singing along with it so I think everything you just shared was so powerful and so beautiful, and it really is. You know it's a really powerful song so thank you. But as we go through it, I was just wondering if you could talk, it was a commissioned piece? Am I correct in saying that? Yep. Could you tell us a little bit about that process? What was that like, and I guess the cultural significance of filming and recording it on Country for you?

Nancy Bates

So, you know, I'm living off Country, so when I'm 500 kilometres away from home, a lot, most of the time, and so the invitation came from the Kaurna community to write a song to accompany a Welcome to Country video resource for the city of Port Adelaide Enfield Council, who do have a really, ambitious and, large reconciliation kind of program and they do a lot of work in that area and have a close connection to the Aboriginal Community down in the Port Adelaide, Enfield area. So, I got this call, and it was just like, ‘Hey, we're doing this resource, we'd really like a song to accompany the resource’. So, I, I was like, well, this is like, what an incredible invitation to be living on somebody else's Country and to be invited in by the Kaurna community to write these songs. There were some elders, in particular who invited me and so then there was the responsibility, because I was like, oh my goodness, I have to write the best song that I've ever written in my life because I really want to honour this Country because Kaurna cCuntry to me is my healing place. It's the place I've grown into to become a grandmother. Not that I don't have, like I go home as regularly as possible, but this place here has given me everything I didn't know I had, I could have, and I've become everything that I never knew I would be on this Country. So I wanted this song, really show my love and respect for Kaurna Miyurna, the Kaurna people, and that means this Kaurna Yarta, this land here and the interconnectedness, so it took a while to start thinking about how, so song starts with picking those two notes that you'll hear. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's the average speed of your heartbeat when you are walking on Country. So I started with that thinking about, you know, what is my body doing? What is my heart saying? To walk on our Country with everything that has happened, to share this land here. It is incredible. We are still here. We are still walking our land. We haven't gone anywhere, you know? So that invitation in and then the beginning, it began with heart, my love, my empathy, my connection to this place as a visitor. I'm a visitor here, I'm a guest. And haven't I been taken care of? I tell you I have. I've raised my daughter here. Now I have a granddaughter here. You know, my daughter found love here. It's a beautiful thing to think about, where does this song begin? And it begins with a heartbeat. And then just the visualisation of walking Country, of being connected that's all it takes, for us to connect is just to be in that place.

To be quiet and silent and present. I think that's what the song brings us is to that groundedness. The heartbeat, the intention to walk Country. What do I need to take in? What do I need to let go? What's the purpose of me walking Country today?

Dominique Higgins

That's so beautiful, and I think that's really evident and has been really conveyed in the production of the song. And can you talk to us about the sound of the waves? Was that a purposeful choice as well as the heartbeat was a purposeful choice, like that idea of, honouring the spirit of place?

Nancy Bates

No, it, it was just, it's just happened. You know, it's, evidence that Country gives us song, not the other way around. So it was just a matter of being on Country, the song coming through Country and you don't even realise that that water is just lapping in the background and you are connecting, you are locked into the rhythm of the water of the land, and you don't even know it.

There's so much going on subconsciously when you practice song through a deep connection with Country and you keep learning in that way so you only realise afterwards when you look back at that, and you hear that and you, you realise that actually the whole time Country was holding that song and that song belongs to Country. It doesn't belong to me or anybody else. It doesn't belong to, it belongs to Country and therefore we belong to it. You know, it's that sort of...it's evidence of song lines, you know the way that Country holds song. Yeah.

Dominique Higgins

That's beautiful. And it kind of leads perfectly into, I guess, what it means to Acknowledge Country as well. What is the significance of Acknowledging Country for you?

Nancy Bates

Well it's very deep to acknowledge Country because you have to sit and think about okay, this place, and this history, and the stories here, and who am I and why am I alive and how am I alive and how do I connect to all these things I can see and feel around me? What is the purpose of my existence? What will I do with this life? All of that begins with an Acknowledgement that you live and breathe and exist, and you exist through the context of Country. You have come from the land, you will return to the land. Taking that moment to Acknowledge. And whose place is this and who are the people that are taking care of this place and what is their name? What is their name in their Language? Whose land am I walking on? I should be proud as an Australian to know wherever I am on this great land that we still know the name of the people who take care of that land, who are the custodians. So, Acknowledgement is simple but profound.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah. Absolutely. It really is. And you mentioned Language there and how important, you know, continuing our Language is, and a section of your song is in Language. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what that process was connecting with your mob, with the community to be able to use that Language and bring it to life?

Nancy Bates

Well, you know when I was saying before that 90% of our song practices that have been, impacted by, negatively by colonisation. We've lost a lot. You know, when we talk about Language, we're also talking about history. So, there was a time when the Australian government had policies, deliberate policies to, it was called assimilation. The thought was by the Australian government and society, largely at that time, because we had the White Australia policy, the government wanted to see Australia that was white and integrated white culture, so that English language and that meant that, and there was no value for First Nation Languages. Not the 500 languages in existence for over 2,600 generations.

It was important at that time in society for everyone to be the same and to hold the same values and to speak the one Language and to all look the same. And so, when you are also at that time getting you know, Aboriginal people who are having children like for myself, but the audience can't see, but I'm a fair-skinned Aboriginal person. Being born with fair-skinned meant that people would say, well, we could just take this child away from their community and put them into white society and then as long as they don't learn their Language or their culture or know who their family is, then they'll just be like white people and eventually we won't have any Aboriginal people at all. And this is really dangerous, right? The impact of that was that our old people were forbidden from using their Language. And so when you look at my, so I'm Nancy Bates, and so I'm almost 50 years of age, but I've grown up without my dad and his generation being able to speak Language, and grown up with, very little Language being spoken by my grandparents and great grandparents. But now, with this resurgence of pride and bringing this back and holding onto this and making it strong again, Language. Now this Language is being taught in schools back home. We have Language nests in New South Wales, we've got our kids, we're getting our kids, our Country, getting all our kids from our communities, and we're bringing that Language back because we still do have Language speakers. We can do this work.

And so, part of that is me being invited back in to learn Language, with Language speakers and with kids now who are learning it. So, you know, now my granddaughter is growing up with Language and being able to bridge that gap in my own family. And so, one of the most powerful things I found about reclaiming Languages, even if you haven't grown up with it, even if I'm now 50 years old and I'm singing in my Language for the first time. When I sing in my Language, it's as if it was never left. It's never gone from me. It was never disconnected from me. When you sing in your Language, your voice changes. Something shifts on a very deep spiritual level in everything you are and everything you are singing about. So with all of that history in mind, when I sing in Language, there are so many layers and there's so much richness and depth in how I feel about that moment and in that song, and when we're singing together and when that song comes to that big, big, big crescendo at the end. What it has taken for me to be here and to be able to sing those words, it's phenomenal.

Dominique Higgins

It really is and it's so beautiful to hear that, you know, you are continuing that revitalisation and the reclamation of Language in your own family as well. It's so powerful to think of what's to come as well. And you've just mentioned a little bit about cultural protocols. So how do they, more broadly guide your work as a Barkindji woman, in your community, and then also when you visit others, how do you ensure that you are respectfully following those protocols?

Nancy Bates

Hmm. Well, the first thing is, listening is the biggest for me in terms of cultural protocol. So first you go, and you're going to listen and to be invited in. I'm really big about not asking questions or as very few questions as possible. Just listen and wait for the information to come. In terms of, cultural protocols around Language, it's checking things with Language speakers for correct pronunciation. I think that's really, really important, and to ensure that you've got that kind of, I guess community giving you the nod and giving permission that this is the right way to do things. And I think the other thing too about cultural protocols is going into work. You always need a sort of whole of community approach to how you connect. So how can I come in and work with children in our community? How can I work intergenerationally in my song practice to ensure that, the Elders are linked in with the young people and everyone in between?

How do you give as much opportunity for the song to be sung by your community or across communities as well? Sharing is a really big part and things are ready to share when everyone's happy with how things are being sung and what is being sung about, and people feel excited about sharing as well. So, this song has been sung so much back home, and you know, across, I know that it's been sung by hundreds of kids in New South Wales as well and continues to just travel and grow. It's been sung so many times now, so the permission often when I get sort of like an email or someone calls me and says, ‘hey, we've heard the song ’I Belong’, and we'd really like to have it for our school or could we do something together?’ or ‘I really love this song’ – there's always, you know, a conversation about how that, how it can be used. So each time the song is used, there's always a conversation about how and another agreement, so, we continue to agree on how the song will be sung and I guess in that way, if things need to change or grow or adapt, we can also do that as we travel through communities. That's also a big part of like Songlines protocol. So these Songlines, which have connected our communities for thousands of years. So, Songlines are big, big long songs that belong to, landscapes and belong to communities. So imagine a big song with verses and choruses and all bits and pieces, but a part belonging to communities and so the songs’ connected when you get together.

Sharing songs across communities takes a conversation about making sure that it's still right and it's good and it's the right time to use it and it's appropriate. You know, and that we're singing it the right time and we're doing it in the right way, and that way when you get it right, those protocols, really do guide the continuance of that song practice. So through that consultation and through that, following those protocols, then you can do more and more work. And often the relationships get stronger between communities.

Jackie King

Thanks so much for that, Nancy, and I guess it extending on that, by including this song in our resource, ‘Bigger Than The Song’, it is going to go across all of New South Wales, and students across New South Wales, will be studying this song within their music classrooms which is really exciting. And a big part of the new music syllabus is around protocols and ethical choices and so, I guess specifically now thinking about your song being used in the classroom, and how it can be used in the classroom, what sort of protocols or ethical choices would you want students and teachers to consider when listening to, performing or even creating music inspired by your work, or the work of other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artists?

Nancy Bates

Yeah, I think protocol one-on-one, the Acknowledgement. So making sure that before the song starts and that there is an, at least an Acknowledgement, or where appropriate, a Welcome to Country, so that it sets the scene for the song itself. And also that you know, that people are listening and paying that respect. Sometimes, like I, you know, I perform in front of large audiences and just getting things to just come down and helping the listeners to be grounded in that space and of course an Acknowledgement is a beautiful way to do that. I also would expect that people performing the song, that there is respect enough for the song to quieten yourself down and be in that space. Sometimes like, you know, when you're having fun with your mates and you know you've got to sing a song and like, we get it on the band. Like bands, we're terrible, bands are terrible for it. We get on stage together and we want to start having a bit of fun. And then there's a moment where we've got to switch and go, well, this is the song now, and when it's song time, we were there as a team, as a band, and I think, I'd like to think students could think of themselves as a large band.

And there are band protocols around when it's time to perform. There is a moment where we just take a breath and we know what we need to do, and we know why we need to do it, and we do it with heart, and we do it to the best of our ability to honour the song and to honour each other. So that's what I would hope that students could also support each other in singing this song and feel, just feel that pride. Also, maybe you are a non-Indigenous person, a non-First Nations, a non-Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander person. Know that this is about you showing respect and supporting the First Nations students. You might have students that you're singing with who are Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, identify as First Nations or Indigenous. Those terms all mean the same thing, but we use them across communities in different ways. You know, by you showing that respect, you're also showing respect to those students as well, and to their culture and acknowledging that this is a really in special, special moment. And if we're paying that respect, if someone's not being respectful, call 'em out. Yeah, that's what I would ask.

Jackie King

Thank you so much for that. And absolutely if someone's not being respectful, call it out. I think that's really important. Like, kids can do that as well as their teachers pulling them into line. So that's fantastic. Specifically then, what permissions are you giving, I guess, if any, to New South Wales teachers and students when it comes to learning and performing your song? For example, can it be performed, outside of the classroom or, arranged, transposed, and could it be sung in Language if using the Language in the song if local protocols are followed?

Nancy Bates

Let's start with that last one because that's already happening. I've been working on, a, an international Indigenous country music showcase called Black Country, and we all sing that song at, the end together and so the last showcase that we had, we had a conversation amongst the First Nations performers that they wanted to take the song and use it as a Welcome to Country or Acknowledgement by incorporating their Language at the end. And so, we had that conversation so, yes, this is how Songlines get reconnected by sharing Language, taking a song, and, you know, weaving our own Language into it – that would just be wonderful and wow. Yes. Can you transpose it? Of course you must! Like, I've got a pretty deep voice when I sing, which is like, which is weird because I'm really short and people, when I sing, people are like, ‘wow she's got a deep voice’. And here's a little, this is a true story. I found my daughter's diary when she was 10, and she wrote in there, everyone says, my mum is a great singer, but I think she just sounds like a man. So, with that in mind, have a laugh about that one. Yes. If you need to take it up higher or lower, or anywhere in between, transpose away, transposing is like my life. I love it. So do I, can you sing it? Yes. It's not mine. It literally, ‘I Belong’ means that we belong to this song. Anybody who wants to just be careful though, because once you sing this song, you do belong. And that comes with a responsibility. Know that there's a responsibility when you share this song. So what comes with it? What's expectation of me is to you, is that.. that you understand that with the knowledge of song and with the responsibility of passing it on, that is a responsibility that you need to take very seriously.

And I don't mean like you have to be all serious about it, but there just has to be a like, I care about this song. I'm passing this song on. Because you know what? If there's children out there that are going to sing this song, and then your grandchildren are singing that song, do you know how happy I will be when I'm an ancestor? I'll just be looking down and going, this is fantastic, and here's how I continue my life and the impact of my life, just the way Uncle Archie Roach has for all of us that this song could travel another seven generations would make me so happy.

Jackie King

I'm a bit lost for words at the moment. I'm just choking back my own emotions. Amazing. Beautiful. Thank you. And wow, teachers, what great permission you've just received to do what you need to do with this song and get it out there.

Nancy Bates

I'm waiting for the punk version. I'm waiting for the metal version. There's going to be a hip hop version, like mix it, like let's go for it. Let's, let's see, let's see what can happen to ‘I Belong’!

Jackie King

That leads really nicely into the next question because we do have a lesson in our unit where students are going to work on writing a third verse for the song from their own voice about the Country that they are on, so having that connection to their own Country. What do you think is important for them to reflect on when they're doing this?

Nancy Bates

I would like to think of themselves at the age of 50 as grandparents and think about when they become a grandparent. What do they want to see for Country between now and the time that they become a grandparent? What does Country need? Because when we see ourselves as part of Country and we ask what Country needs and what do I need to do for Country, you also answer the question of: ‘who am I?’ ‘What is my life and what does my life mean and what do I need?’ So when you think about caring for Country, you think about caring for yourself. And I'm going to say this, right? I'm going to say this straight to you young people listening and to teachers out there, we know our young people are up against it. There's never been a generation that have been up against what they're up against in terms of what's happening to Country, what has happened to Country, and what needs to be done for us all to heal this.

And so, the now this generation, your generation, when I ask you this question around reflecting on yourself as grandparents, the time between now and when you become my age and possibly grandparents at that stage, we need to change so much. There is so much healing that we need to support your young people with. Part of writing this song is me acknowledging what your young people are up against, and I'm going to do everything I can, everything I can, while I'm here to try and make it better for you, to make it better for your grandkids. That's what I want to leave you with. Think about that. Think about being an old person and the life that you need to lead for us to be able to sit there in 30, 40, 50 years' time and say this healing is happening.

Dominique Higgins

That's really powerful messaging and a really good shift in their perspective as well. So thank you for sharing that. We wanted to now kind of have a yarn around, I guess, what was school music like for you growing up? Do you remember learning any songs by any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander artists? And then, I guess, how important is it now that our kids are having that opportunity?

Nancy Bates

Yeah, there wasn't, like, I grew up in the eighties, lots of, um, terrible pop music, no I shouldn't say that. Awesome great! I grew up in the eighties and so, as a kid that I was really interested in music and learnt the recorder. I remember, we had the songbooks that used to come out every year. I don't remember seeing any First Nations music in there. I mean, I grew up around like family members. We had family members. My mum's non-indigenous, but she, was also into music and stuff like that. But no, the visibility was pretty low. And then like mid-eighties though, you've got kind of like the emergence of like ‘Coloured Stone’ and there's, this, you're starting to see some, I remember, you know, towards the end of schooling, you've got ‘Yothu Yindi’ coming out, but there's just like the visibility's like really, really low. In music and having opportunities to just, you just didn't see it up and I mean, of course, in your own communities and your own families, but out in the mainstream, like definitely the access to First Nations music wasn't there. We weren't, you know, we weren't learning it. I do remember once maybe having, we had a Adnyamathanha Song Man come and visit. I remember he was ah, I can't remember his name. No, maybe it was Uncle Buck Mackenzie who came and did, a song. So Adnyamathanha people from the Flinders Rangers in South Australia for those who don't know, beautiful, beautiful people. And singing a song about, catching kangaroo and getting a big, big fat belly because you're so full from this gorgeous wild tucker, wild meat. But that was just like once I remember in my childhood. Yeah, we didn't get a lot at all and which is a big reason why I'm always out and about at school doing, you know, doing music and connecting and doing lots of songwriting with kids and sharing what I can.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Onto the, I mean, I feel like a lot of this conversation's been so powerful and so heavy, like your messaging has been really beautiful, but this is a big question. So what does it mean for you to hold space here and raise your voice for mob, especially for those younger generations?

Nancy Bates

What is it like to hold space? It's the most.. What's the word? Like, it's the deepest responsibility I've ever felt to hold space. To hold space through this song, to hold song space, to bring people into this space, to create a culturally safe space, which is what I try and do everywhere I go with everything that I do. Don't always get it right. I'm still learning. You're always learning, you know, and they always, you're pivoting and adapting. I'm still learning. I'm getting older. It's getting harder. What is it like? It’s hard, but then when you actually get to create that space and young people or other song people, you know, can step into this space and just, we find each other and we share song, and we share stories and we share, like we have big belly aching laughs and we, you know, we write silly songs, we write deep songs and everything in between and we share who we are in that safety is like this sort of Indigenous love and pride that is bigger than anything that you can feel. It's bigger than you. It's so, such an, it's like the ancestors are holding you. I feel like it's like these layers, right? The ancestors hold us and then we've got to create spaces for each other on this planet.

Within that, within that kind of beautiful, you know, that beautiful circle that the ancestors are around us. It means that I try and be wise. I'm trying to lean into wisdom and do things that feel right and wise, and I try and do what is best and what should be done, what is right to be done as well in this space and that means like a lot of listening, deep listening. Again, it comes back to holding spaces it’s just, it's not about people coming in and just sitting down and listening to you. For me, holding space is creating a space where others can be listened to deeply. So that's a big responsibility. And, but it's like, and also it can be really fun, like when we have a space together and we have a really deadly time and we go away and we're overflowing with love and laughter and hope and song. You know, that life's hard, but we're able to help each other out. It's like, it's just the bestest feeling in the whole world.

Dominique Higgins

I love that. Absolutely. And our final question for you today is how do you believe schools or teachers, can best support and amplify the voices of our Aboriginal artists and communities?

Nancy Bates

Yeah, how, how can teachers do that? Teachers have different, you know, like, this is one thing teachers, we need to acknowledge that this is a problem that we know that over 90% of Australians don't have a friendship, a relationship, an experience of that type of depth with, you know, friendship with a First Nations Aboriginal Torres Strait indigenous person. And so the, one of the best ways for us to say like, I think I just want to call this out straight away for teachers like this is anti-racism work. That's what this is. This song, this work, the interrogation of this song, connecting first, why are you doing this? For me, I'm doing this for the combat racism. I'm doing this so that my granddaughter can come to school and not face the same things that my grandfather that her grandfather did. And her grandmother and her great-grandparents. I want to call this out really seriously to you teachers, and I know I'm, you know, I'm a pretty light-hearted person when you get to know me, but when we're talking about the education of our kids and our kids sitting in your classroom. Since the referendum, and the outcome of that, our kids are up against what is an inconceivable amount of racism in our schools and so are your Aboriginal people and staff. Your Aboriginal education workforce, your staff, the leadership. You know, we are, it has got worse. So much worse. It was unbearable before. So every school teacher listening to this, this isn't about a nice song to sing. This is about the life of our children within, that are in your hands on a daily basis. And that school can be the place that harms our kids the most. I cannot breathe thinking about that for my granddaughter. So when you take this song and when you engage First Nations artists and you look at this, know that this is consciously about combating racism in your lifetime with what you have. The privilege and the power that you hold as a teacher over our kids can change their lives. You hold that power.

I want you to know that every time you do this work, leaning into this work, being prepared to listen, being prepared to learn. Be prepared to know that you will make mistakes. Maybe if your hearts can just break. This is what Uncle Archie Roach used to say to audiences night after night. If your heart can break, then you're ready to educate First Nations kids. Then we can walk together. When your heart breaks with ours, we can walk together. Be as empathic. Feel this. Know the history, educate. Make sure when you are walking into that classroom space, that you're continually doing your work, that you know the history, the right history, the factual history.

Those kids are not there to educate the rest of your students in that class either. Don't single them out. Don't put it on them. Educate yourself. Go and find the resources. We have so many teaching resources. Narragunnawali, that site for Reconciliation Australia has so much there. You know, lay the foundations yourself and keep reinforcing them. And take, you know, every opportunity you can to continue your learning and professional development. Prioritise it and yeah, get around cultural safety, get around what that means to bring into the classroom before you tackle anything like this song ‘I Belong’.

Jackie King

Thank you so much, for that very powerful message, Nancy. It is so very important, really important work and, you're right in that teachers might get it wrong along the way, but it's really very important, I think, that they start and start trying. Dominique, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

Dominique Higgins

Just thank you so much. It’s been incredible to sit in this space and listen to you. And everything you say just rings so true. I got very emotional just then because it's true. It's what we're facing. It's what our kids are facing. And to hear it from other mob as well, you know you're not alone, and there's a long way to go, and hopefully this is, steps for our society to get it right. So, thank you for sharing. Truly.

Nancy Bates

Yeah, we have this power. We are at a moment where we just cannot look away. And if right now, if we can just, if we can be strong, stronger than we were before, then I feel like I can hold onto hope, like I can really hold it, not because I'm supposed to have it, or it's a cultural obligation, but that it actually exists.

Jackie King

Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today, Nancy. Thank you for giving us the permissions to sing and have this song in our resources and share it across classrooms across New South Wales and for the story and the thinking that needs to go behind it, it's so very important and we are very grateful for your time today and also, for your sharing.

Nancy Bates

Sing it loud. Sing it proud. I can't wait to see where this goes.

 Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt at Creative Arts 7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. I would like to acknowledge the beautiful Yidiki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by creative arts advisor, Alex Manton.