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Building Refine Labs: An Operational Perspective - Megan Bowen
Episode 31 • 6th May 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:45:59

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Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing.

Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo.

Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees.

Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms.

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About Today's Guest

Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz.

In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.

Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:32] - Megan’s background
  • [07:06] - Building Refine Labs
  • [14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role
  • [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team
  • [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels
  • [23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design
  • [25:46] - Transparency in the sales process
  • [27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team
  • [31:21] - Onboarding process
  • [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing
  • [35:23] - Transparency around layoffs
  • [37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology
  • [40:36] - Partnership with Aspireship

Resource Links

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

If you had to pick one agency that's had the biggest impact

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:

on B2B marketing over the past five

years, the decision would be easy.

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:

Whether you agree with their approach

or not, you'd have to say RefineLabs.

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:

Refined Labs has set the agenda.

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:

They've defined the terms of the debate.

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:

They've introduced ideas and methodologies

that have come to be widely acknowledged

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as aspirational best practices, even if

they're not universally practiced yet.

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And of course the face, most of us

associate with refine is former CEO,

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Chris Walker, today's guest was a partner

with Chris nearly from the beginning of

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that journey, helping grow refined labs

from just a few people to nearly 100

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Megan Bowen was COO at refine for three

and a half years before taking over from

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Chris as CEO at the beginning of 2024.

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And we all know that the

impact of operations often

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happens below the surface.

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It's a lot less visible from the outside.

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You don't see it on LinkedIn,

but it keeps everything going.

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It makes the magic happen.

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So we're gonna pull back the curtain today

and take a look at the Refine Lab story.

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From an operational perspective, dig

into some lessons learned about agency

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ops and talk to Megan about where she's

steering Refine next as CEO, Megan, it's

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such a pleasure to have you here today.

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Megan Bowen: What an intro.

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I love that.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm excited to be here and excited

to chat about all of the things and

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so thanks again for having me on.

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Justin Norris: little bit about

you first, looking at your CV, you

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have had roles in sales, account

management, customer success, ops.

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You've kind of really done a full

circuit and now you're a CEO.

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I'm curious about the stack of skills

you've built up through these different

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roles and is there one of these functions

that you feel most rooted in or how have

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they contributed to who you are today?

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Megan Bowen: I'll give you my quick

career arc because I think that it is

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a really interesting evolution from

where I started to where I am now.

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Actually right out of high school before

I went to college, I got sucked into

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Probably an MLM scheme, Cutco cutlery.

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And that was a really formative

experience for me because I really

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learned the hard skills of sales.

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I actually sold over 10,

000 worth of these knives.

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I actually had some success and

that was when I first, started to.

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Realize the importance of sales and move

away from a lot of my childhood dreams

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about being a filmmaker and looking at

the bigger picture and thinking Hmm,

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maybe I have a path in the business

world, and maybe that's where I'm headed.

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Let me make my millions and then I'll

retire and make movies, until I die.

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My first job out of college

was at educational technology

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company called eChalk.

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My core foundational skills that I

learned there was account management,

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customer success, and customer service.

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I was there for seven years.

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I got some promotions, but

I was doing the same job.

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For seven years, and that allowed me

to really master the discipline of

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account management and customer success.

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And this was actually before like

customer success was even really a thing.

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Ready for my next challenge

after that really great run.

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I went to ZocDoc.

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2012.

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I took a huge step back in my career.

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Became a customer support agent

over a 50 percent pay cut.

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But I said, this is a place where

I will be able to grow my career.

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They're offering something that

people are definitely going to use.

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After nine months on the phone,

emails, headset, sitting on a

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stability ball, answering calls

and emails for 14 hours a day.

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I was able to synthesize that the

core problem in the business was a

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complete lack of a post sale function.

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at the time the business's

only solution was let's just

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keep hiring more support reps.

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I was like, Hey guys, if you

have a post sale team, you

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properly onboard your doctors.

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You don't need, 60 support reps dealing

with all of the problems that exist.

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It took me a while, but I put

a business case together, and

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they gave me the opportunity.

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That was my first time building

out a team from scratch.

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So in 18 months, I built a team from

zero to 24, designed the entire post sale

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function That was an amazing experience.

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And I realized I love leading

a team, building a team.

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This is what I really love to do.

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I got recruited from Grubhub Seamless.

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They said, we need someone to build out

our B2B account management function.

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I was like, I can do that.

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I want to do it again.

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Let's go.

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So I left SockDoc, went

to Grubhub Seamless.

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It's post merger, pre IPO, built that

function from scratch there on the

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B2B side, was there for the IPO, they

acquired a bunch of companies and I

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learned, I basically had to like fold

in a lot of their acquired companies

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into the broader brand, that was

another really formative experience.

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Grubhub got really big.

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I was there for four years and I was like,

I need to go back to building something.

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Small company Managed by Q reached out.

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We need you to build our

account management function.

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I'm like, I got this.

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Went to Managed by Q.

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Managed by Q was when I broke out

of the account management lane.

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I started as the director

of account management.

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I ended as the COO at managed by Q.

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First I took over sales.

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I had a lot of experience there.

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Then I took over marketing.

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Didn't have as much.

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Then I took over operations.

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Then I became the COO.

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We eventually exited to

WeWork via acquisition.

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That's another story for another day.

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Maybe over a glass of wine.

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I then went back into the food tech space.

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I got recruited to go to

this company, Platters.

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I was like, ah, I know this space.

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It's very crowded.

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A lot of M& A activity.

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I can probably, Get my next exit this way.

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Let's go.

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A pandemic happened though, and

then that negatively affected that

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business and I decided to walk away.

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I was actually going to start my own kind

of COO, consulting, customer success,

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sales, like go to market consulting.

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And Chris found me and ultimately

convinced me to team up with

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him and build refine labs.

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My first question to him was like,

out of all the things that I do, I'm

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decent at marketing, but you want me

to help you build a marketing agency,

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that's not really my core competency.

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And he said, no, you have all

the the skills I don't have.

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I think we're going to

make a really good team.

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Obviously I said, yes, here we are today.

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And we were building the agency

side by side ever since, and then

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as things evolved you see how

things have sort of transpired

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over the last three to four months.

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Justin Norris: The theme I've

took from there is building, that

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seems to be your happy place.

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But you hadn't done a like a

service based business before.

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I guess Grubhub to an extent was had

a lot of a service component to it.

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Megan Bowen: All the companies

I worked at were really tech

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enabled services.

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If you think about it,

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ZocDoc, you book the appointment online,

but all my support calls were about what

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happened in the doctor's

office, or an issue with, you

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know, the appointment, etc.

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Grubhub, you order online,

you get the food in real life.

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The food has to be good.

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Manage by Q, you order office

services online, someone's coming

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to clean or paint your office.

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So all my roles, it was about both

technology adoption and management

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of the In real life experience and

how do you manage expectations and

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deliver on your promises to customers

with that amount of complexity?

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Justin Norris: And so having partnered

with Chris really early on in that

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journey, and I've, you know, heard him

talk a fair bit about that arc from

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his point of view, and there's actually

an episode of Dimension Live where the

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two of you discussed Refine Labs, which

really stuck with me, where I got a bit

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of your perspective, but I'm just curious

to like, just replay that movie, through

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your eyes and what it was like going

on that journey, building Refine Labs.

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Megan Bowen: so I joined, it

was the summer of:

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there was five employees, maybe

about six customers at the time.

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And all six customers were using really

a random assortment of services, right?

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This is the beginning of the agency.

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So like the core offering hadn't

really fully been fleshed out.

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It was really an amalgamation of

people that, thought Chris was smart

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and wanted to hire him and his team

to help with a variety of things.

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It was interesting in my first 90 days.

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Like, all of the customers

ended up cancelling, and we

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had to quickly replace them.

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I remember making my first sale in week

three of joining the company with Chris.

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So I would say the first six months

you know, I kind of came in and I

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was like, every customer is sort

of getting something different.

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Everyone's paying a different amount.

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We're grossly undercharging for

the value that we're providing.

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And really, I would say the first

thing that I was trying to focus on

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in coming in and using my experience

and expertise and working with Chris

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was like, who is our real customer?

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And what is really the

core set of services that.

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Really are our core competency and

what are like, sure, we can do these

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other things, but are those things

the things that we're really good at.

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So I'd say in the first six

months of working together,

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we really were able to craft.

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I would say what is still

probably the core of our business

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strategy, Which was leaning into

demand strategy, media execution.

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I built out the creative team from

scratch in the beginning of:

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We added that once we realized that

was a key need of our customers and

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really started playing around with

pricing and increasing those prices.

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we then had the COVID boom.

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So 2021 was our hyper growth

year, And sure me and Chris would

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probably like we're so smart.

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We grew this amazing agency.

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It's just because of us

because we were so smart.

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We're so good.

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And it's not to diminish either

of our skill sets, but I think

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it was predominantly a function

of the market conditions.

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If I'm being honest, we had

all of this VC money coming in.

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high pressure to grow as well as a ton

of money to inject into that growth and

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a total lack of consideration for any,

customer acquisition costs or any other

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unit economics that mattered, right?

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So that was perfect for us.

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And honestly, in that period, I remember

when I joined, think we were charging

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our clients like around 8k per month.

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And we rode that COVID boom, I think at

the peak, we were charging between like

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35 and 45k per month for our services.

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With some gradual price

increases up until that point.

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Obviously, the market has corrected.

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We're around now 20 to 27k a month.

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But that's when we had hyper growth.

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So it was, how do we hire people?

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How do we build a repeatable

process for service delivery?

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How do we design the delivery

process so that it's repeatable?

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How do we find the right talent?

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How do we train them?

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In an agency, the team is the product.

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the people that you get, how you enable

them, how they feel about being at

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the job is crucial to be successful.

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That's when I started leveraging

the core marketing principles for

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talent acquisition, I basically

recruited probably the first 60

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people at the company personally

and started posting on LinkedIn.

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We later started a podcast

called Talent Destination.

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Was really intentional about why

working at our agency would be different

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from working at other agencies.

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The reputation isn't great, Burnout too

many customers, Not caring about the

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individual, Unable to take vacation,

Difficult customers that you have to

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deal with without any Support from the

leadership team, so everything that I was

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doing was like, how do we not be that?

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How do we be the opposite of the

negative connotations of what

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it's like to work at an agency?

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How do we assemble all the

marketing Avengers all in one place?

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So people wanna come work with us because

of the caliber of talent that we have.

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So recruiting, I would say like

offers, pricing, packaging.

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That was like a big thing I focused on.

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Then it was talent, and then it was

identifying the people on the team

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that were really strong operationally

and giving them clarity on where we

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needed to focus to, to actually scale.

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That said, We grew so fast

that things started to break.

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That's what happened and it's funny

because both Chris and I really hate the

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growth at all costs mentality, but we fell

into growth at all costs because of all

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of those factors that I just explained

and dealt with the same, consequences.

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And repercussions, 2022, 2023,

we're challenging, The B2B SaaS

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ecosystem started to erode collapse.

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If I'm being dramatic and we had

to pivot, we had to lower pricing.

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We had a delivery model

for those higher pricing.

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So that cut into our operating margins.

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We had clients that were just going out

of business or running out of money.

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that impacted retention greatly.

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People wanted to keep working with us,

but were like, I literally can't pay you

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because we're in survival mode right now.

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And then we had to test and pivot.

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We started unbundling services.

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Chris, the forever visionary, forever

innovator, was trying to rethink our

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category positioning or our offering.

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So we tried lots of different things

over the course of that time period.

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Which I think was needed.

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Another by product of that though,

was creating a lot of confusion in the

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market about who we were, what we did.

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I've taken sales calls at

Refine Labs the whole time.

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Sometimes we've had help.

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Sometimes it's only been me.

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That period was when I'd start

a sales call and this is how

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most of them would start.

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I love Refine Labs.

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I love you guys.

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I love the podcast.

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I love Chris, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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So what do you guys do?

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What do you actually do?

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I was like, Oh, okay, here we go.

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So taking over this was a very

intentional decision to let Chris

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effectively start a new venture

focused on some of the new patterns

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that he was seeing in go to market.

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So that's really what

posetto is all about, right?

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Let's get really clear and focused

about what refined labs is.

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Let's split off a new venture that can

be focused on what Chris does best, which

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is identifying new patterns, innovating

off of that, continuing to, explore

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new concepts and further define them.

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And let's treat RefineLabs for what it is.

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A demand generation agency.

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And so as I've taken over, I've

really focused on clarity, on

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continuing to adjust pricing and

packaging to meet our customers needs.

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Justin Norris: I'm curious, stepping

into the CEO role, has it been a

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shock to the system in any way?

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Has it been surprising at all?

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differences from what you would

expect or is it just felt like a

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natural extension of a lot of the

work that you were doing already?

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Megan Bowen: So I think some additional

context on this, Chris and I had a

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unique leadership style in running

the business when I first joined.

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I would say from 2020 to 2022,

we very much were acting like

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co leaders of the company.

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And we were also leveraging

each other's strengths.

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So, for example, I always managed

the senior leadership team directly.

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And Chris and I, although it would

evolve and change, we effectively

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Divided and conquered on all of the

key responsibilities that a typical

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CEO and maybe a COO would have and

so from an internal perspective.

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I don't think that was the

perception externally, but from

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an internal perspective, we

were always acting in that way.

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And then in the beginning of 2023.

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And when things were particularly

difficult, we had a big layoff in

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December of 2022, which was difficult.

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I would say beginning of that 2023

period, I started to take on a lot more

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CEO like responsibilities internally.

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Chris was really guiding me.

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Going down this path of experimenting

with what has now become posetto at that

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time and over the course of 2023 him and I

were discussing about how we were going to

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play this out and what it would look like.

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And so I would say for the

majority of last year, I was

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doing the role in many ways.

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From an internal perspective, and so

when the external announcement went

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out in January, it was exciting and

fun, and I had a lot of, really kind

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messages of congratulations, et cetera.

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But for me in January, it

didn't feel that different.

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It felt like over the course of 2023 when

I personally was undergoing some of those

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adjustments and that adjustment period,

including trying to really figure out.

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Who can I identify on the team that

can start to take on the COO and the

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operational stuff that I'm doing so I can

create more space for focusing on some

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other things that are also important.

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think

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Justin Norris: And so diving in

a little bit into the, I'm going

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to call it agency operations.

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I don't even know if that's a real

term, but I'll use it to describe

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The thing that you have been doing and.

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This is something that I learned as well.

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And it was on the agency

side for seven years.

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And you start out, you're like, I'm good

at this, I think X, and I'm going to go

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and be a consultant for that, skill set.

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in the beginning, that's okay.

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And then as you start to add and add

like, Oh, I built this really complex

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thing and actually is a business of

itself to run and make sure that we

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are delivering a quality service in

a repeatable way and that it scales

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and you've really touched already.

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On a lot of those points.

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But I don't think there's

a lot of playbooks.

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I think there are few books and

things out there about running

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service based businesses, but I think

people just sort of discover it.

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They're like, Oh, I got to run this thing.

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What was that learning

process like for you?

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Kind of figuring that out.

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It

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Megan Bowen: It's really hard.

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Running a

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service business is hard.

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People should think carefully

before they sign up for it.

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So, there are a couple,

I think key challenges.

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I'll talk a little bit about I

of:

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We had, so at the tail end of the

COVID boom year of:

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acquisition was out of control, I

literally couldn't hire fast enough

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to meet the demand that we had.

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It was insane.

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At one point we were signing

contracts that didn't have

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start dates until 90 days away.

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Because I just didn't have a team

available to assign to them and people

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were still signing up and waiting

basically for their turn to work with us.

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And we were bumping up our prices.

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We were assigning all sorts of

companies, big and small, relatively

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straightforward, very complex

businesses with massive budgets.

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We had this initial hypothesis on

capacity planning, which is every

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team should manage four to five

customers and that would allow

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us to achieve our target margins,

target revenue efficiency metrics.

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started getting a lot of feedback

of:

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that everyone was feeling burnt out.

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The workload was unsustainable.

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they weren't sure what changes they

could make to make it sustainable.

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:

And that was when I raised the red flag

to Chris and I was like, we are headed for

354

:

the iceberg if we do not make a change.

355

:

everyone on the team is feeling this.

356

:

This is not one or two people.

357

:

This is the broad sentiment.

358

:

We have to address this and

we have to make a change.

359

:

And so, we did an

exploration of the problem.

360

:

We effectively came to realize

that we were treating all of our

361

:

customers the same when they were not.

362

:

And that was the first time we

actually segmented our customers.

363

:

Across tiers and assigned a different

set of resources to them and we could

364

:

no longer rely on just like, well,

every team gets four to five customers.

365

:

It was like, no, that doesn't work.

366

:

We need to reflect the nuances

of the different segments.

367

:

We need to realize that maybe, you

know, in the tier one segment, sure,

368

:

they can have four to five customers.

369

:

If they have a tier three

client, they can only manage two.

370

:

And that also forced us to rethink.

371

:

our pricing and packaging.

372

:

We had to charge those tier three clients

more than the tier one, So that was

373

:

a defining moment in our operations.

374

:

we segmented the customer base and

we made a plan and presented it back

375

:

to the team of how over a two month

period, we were going to reassign

376

:

accounts to load balance everybody's

book of business appropriately.

377

:

That was challenging because we had to

continue to delay net new revenue in order

378

:

to, Prioritize not burning out the team.

379

:

And we still haven't figured this out

completely because the market drove

380

:

our prices down and in many ways we

still have an expensive delivery model.

381

:

And so it has been an ongoing constant

effort of how are we and pricing,

382

:

how are we designing, What the

delivery experience is like, how many

383

:

people are on every type of account.

384

:

But I think that story kind of

illustrates the challenge that we had.

385

:

What I'm proud of us, what we

did though, is we prioritize the

386

:

health of the team ahead of net new

revenue acquisition, which I don't

387

:

think happens in every context.

388

:

So we were willing to delay revenue

growth because we realized that

389

:

this was so important to solve.

390

:

And I think for any agency owner, you

have to put your team before the customer.

391

:

Because your team is the product.

392

:

It is the customer experience.

393

:

If they're burnt out, if they're not

set up for success, if they're not

394

:

equipped, your customer will know.

395

:

They will feel it.

396

:

And that's the prevalent theme

that I see in agencies that

397

:

have an opportunity to improve.

398

:

They consistently prioritize the customer

and are not making that connection.

399

:

Justin Norris: that's what leads to that

negative reputation you alluded to about

400

:

agencies that they're meat grinders,

that they don't care about their people.

401

:

That was my trepidation

in joining an agency.

402

:

And I mean, I was lucky I ended up

somewhere great that also took that

403

:

approach and I think more and more

are starting to figure that out.

404

:

But yeah,

405

:

it's a scary thing to, work 50,

60 billable hours a week and,

406

:

be burnt out and, Not have a

management that has your back.

407

:

It isn't sustainable.

408

:

curious the axis of segmentation

for the client base was just based

409

:

on company size Like was that the

defining thing between the different

410

:

tiers or were there other factors that

influenced how much support they needed?

411

:

Megan Bowen: It's a good question.

412

:

I think there was a correlation with

company size, but it really came down

413

:

to a few factors and more about the

dynamic of the actual, product mix

414

:

and the total ad budget we managed.

415

:

So I think where we distinctly saw an

account taking significantly more hours

416

:

to serve was You know, significantly

higher managing, 50 K per month is very

417

:

different than a million per month just

in terms of tasks to be completed jobs to

418

:

be done hours needed to dedicate to it.

419

:

And then the additional layer is,

there are some companies that have

420

:

one target market, one customer

segment and one product offering.

421

:

So, I need to market this one

product to this one segment, and

422

:

I need to get that exactly right.

423

:

There's another type of company

that actually has a suite of

424

:

products, 3, different solutions.

425

:

And maybe they sell into SMB

and mid market and enterprise.

426

:

That's actually like five

companies in one company.

427

:

Even if their ad budget is

relatively small, right?

428

:

Even if that ad budget is a hundred

K and not a million, there's

429

:

a lot more complexity in that.

430

:

And it's not like we just take

the one strategy and use that

431

:

strategy for all your product lines

and all your customer segments.

432

:

It doesn't work that way.

433

:

So I would say those were

the two biggest factors that.

434

:

effectively classified a customer

as like a tier one versus a tier

435

:

three, thinking tier one more

simple, tier three more complex.

436

:

There was a general correlation with

tier three customers being overall

437

:

larger companies, more employees,

higher revenue, but not always

438

:

the case, interestingly enough.

439

:

Justin Norris: I mean, my background

was more of a, hourly billing model.

440

:

It just made sense for the type of work

that we did, which was primarily, you

441

:

know, systems configuration, it like

products for your pricing and packaging.

442

:

It was more of like a

monthly retainer model.

443

:

generally is preferred.

444

:

People don't like, the idea of just

trading hours for dollars because,

445

:

there's a limit to how far you can scale.

446

:

But the flip side, I guess, like you

talked about is you may end up in a

447

:

package with a client that starts just

sucking you dry in terms of hours.

448

:

Megan Bowen: Yes.

449

:

Justin Norris: do you set limits on that?

450

:

how do you put boundaries to

make sure that doesn't happen?

451

:

Megan Bowen: I mean, we considered hourly

or usage based pricing multiple times

452

:

over the course of the last few years.

453

:

we challenged our business model at

many junctures and we've You know,

454

:

it thought should we go in this

direction like it would, be easier,

455

:

you know, I'm using air quotes to

charge that way so that we're not

456

:

underwater with certain clients, right?

457

:

What we kept coming back to though

was we didn't want to be hired

458

:

for the hours that we spent.

459

:

We wanted to be hired for the

impact that we would have.

460

:

So we kept coming back to our flat

pricing, although there are some

461

:

tiers, like You know, the 27k a

month package is for a 50k ad budget.

462

:

If you're spending a million

bucks a month, you're going

463

:

to pay us more than 27k.

464

:

But we'll put that custom

pricing together for you.

465

:

What it came down to then was in order

to ensure that we don't over deliver

466

:

or erode our margins, We need to be

really intentional with the service

467

:

design, as well as the sales process,

and how we are communicating what to

468

:

expect, what they're going to get, how

you actually draft your scopes of work,

469

:

so that if you run into an issue, you

have sort of agreed upon documentation

470

:

to come back to, to reset expectations.

471

:

But the most important thing is

aligning in the sales process,

472

:

so there's no confusion.

473

:

Right?

474

:

I like to tell people I'm like,

I'm not a great sales rep.

475

:

I open my sales calls being like, I'm

not here to convince you to hire us.

476

:

The purpose of this call is for us to have

an initial conversation and evaluate if

477

:

we think there's a potential fit for a

partnership and then we'll keep talking.

478

:

And I actually will bring things up to

almost talk people out of hiring us.

479

:

If I see a potential,

yellow flag or a red flag.

480

:

people with low ACVs.

481

:

Oh, our product costs 4, 000 a month.

482

:

I'm like, yo, I can get you more

customers to pay you 4, 000 a month,

483

:

but if you're paying us our retainer.

484

:

And you know 50 K per month ad

budget, your customer acquisition

485

:

cost is going to be unsustainable?

486

:

Is that something you wanna sign up for?

487

:

Do you have a ton of VCPE money

that you're willing to just spend

488

:

for a period of time to grow and

figure out how to right size later?

489

:

Like if so, cool, we'll help you.

490

:

If not, I'm not sure where the right.

491

:

partner,

492

:

Justin Norris: When you're on the hook

for delivering those, Bad projects or

493

:

projects with bad fit clients and you

experience the pain of that You get way

494

:

more motivated to filter people out up

front versus just selling like a sas

495

:

product That's like air like whatever if

you don't succeed with it, maybe you don't

496

:

care if you're the salesperson, but when

you're Also having to deliver and fulfill

497

:

that you feel it way closer to home

498

:

Megan Bowen: absolutely.

499

:

And then, but honestly, that

approach serves me well.

500

:

I create trust pretty quickly.

501

:

People don't think I'm trying

to oversell or convince them.

502

:

And then for those where it does

make sense, we're able to go through

503

:

effectively like a due diligence process.

504

:

I don't need, it's like not

even a sales process, right?

505

:

It's like, okay, let's take each

of these steps that I've defined.

506

:

That'll help us both evaluate that

this is going to be a good fit

507

:

for both

508

:

Justin Norris: I found I found the

same it's way better it's consultative

509

:

you're not pitching anybody on anything

and You People really want to work

510

:

with you, coming out the other end.

511

:

you've mentioned a few times and I

agree with it so much that in a service

512

:

business that people are the product

and the challenge that I've seen, you

513

:

know, you start an agency and maybe you

have a few, Rock stars like a Sidney

514

:

or a Sam or an Ashley, or I'm just

naming some people I know And then

515

:

it becomes hard to like clone them.

516

:

no matter what process you put in place,

there's an unevenness sometimes, or

517

:

Not everybody has the same methodology.

518

:

And so then you have this unevenness

in the service delivery, you know, not

519

:

everyone gets the identical experience.

520

:

You how did you tackle that?

521

:

Or did you figure out a way to, clone

people and really keep that consistent?

522

:

Megan Bowen: Yeah,

that's a great question.

523

:

2021 in Q1 of 2022 was when we had

our hiring spree, probably like over

524

:

that period of time hired 100 people.

525

:

One of the consistent things that came

up in the interview process was this

526

:

sense of imposter syndrome from highly

skilled, experienced demand marketers,

527

:

just like I see Sam, I see Sydney,

Ashley, I see these people on LinkedIn.

528

:

I don't know if I'm

good enough to be here.

529

:

Like, am I going to be able

to succeed in this job?

530

:

Right?

531

:

Now, yes, you need a baseline

of hard skills and experience to

532

:

be effective in this job, right?

533

:

And we very intentionally qualify

for that in our recruiting process.

534

:

And then we had a pretty strong process

whereby we would have obviously like

535

:

conversation interviews, technical

interviews, and presentation interviews

536

:

to be able to Check off all of

the boxes again for both sides and

537

:

also to make sure that we always

recruited people that had in house

538

:

experience, not agency experience.

539

:

So I always was so intentional of

like, this is going to be really

540

:

different from what you're used to.

541

:

Here's how it's going to be different.

542

:

These demand marketers in many cases.

543

:

never had to think about developing

things like, you know, account management

544

:

skills or executive communication skills.

545

:

But for all the ones that we've

hired and many others, they

546

:

were excited to develop those.

547

:

And a lot of people viewed coming

to RefineLabs as, this is how I'm

548

:

going to get my marketing MBA, I'm

going to come in here, I'm going

549

:

to work here for a few years.

550

:

I'm going to work with a

bunch of different companies.

551

:

I'm going to figure out for myself

what works and what doesn't work.

552

:

And so, we weren't perfect on

hiring, but we really had a

553

:

process to bring in awesome people.

554

:

That's been my favorite thing

about building this company is

555

:

the talent density that we had and

continue to have is unmatched from

556

:

any company that I've been at.

557

:

Onboarding enablement is crucial.

558

:

And then I think leadership.

559

:

So Judy Sheriff, Evan Hughes on our

team have been here since the beginning

560

:

and they've always led and managed.

561

:

Our team of directors of demand gen.

562

:

So I would say onboarding enablement

and like consistent leadership

563

:

and a good recruiting process is

how you mitigate the risk there.

564

:

But what I'll say is all of our

directors go through this beautiful

565

:

professional development arc, and

it's so awesome to see, right?

566

:

Like I'm okay if you join us and.

567

:

I know that in two years,

you're going to be so much

568

:

better than where you are today.

569

:

But that's actually something I personally

get a lot of satisfaction about.

570

:

How do you create the conditions

for people to be in a professional

571

:

setting and truly accelerate their

career growth in a meaningful way?

572

:

Mistakes get made.

573

:

Customers might be let down

or upset here and there.

574

:

That's okay.

575

:

There are solutions to those things.

576

:

Justin Norris: with that onboarding

process, did you have like a formal

577

:

playbook or learning path, like something

documented that you put people through

578

:

to have them come out with a sort of

consistent service delivery model, or

579

:

was it learning through osmosis, buddy

system, shadowing, how did that work?

580

:

Megan Bowen: All of those things.

581

:

We have robust documentation,

which effectively also kind

582

:

of became the vault in many

583

:

ways.

584

:

We always paired people up for

mentorship and buddy programs.

585

:

We would have new hires sit in on

active client meetings because like to

586

:

see it is to know it and to learn it.

587

:

So we did all of those things.

588

:

Justin Norris: And one of the biggest

challenges with the service based

589

:

business is it's almost impossible

to stand on that tightrope of being

590

:

perfectly staffed and like having

supply and demand meet each other.

591

:

Like you're almost never there.

592

:

too few people, and then you're

disappointing clients or you have too

593

:

many people and all of a sudden your

margins are underwater and when I was

594

:

on the agency side, we had a furloughs

at a period of time where people

595

:

would voluntarily reduce their hours.

596

:

So we didn't have to lay

people off was okay.

597

:

But it's like, it's just

such a thin razor's edge that

598

:

you're walking all the time.

599

:

How did you manage that?

600

:

Megan Bowen: Yeah, it's so hard.

601

:

the first exposure was not enough people.

602

:

So that was our first problem in 2021

when the demand exceeded the supply.

603

:

It was a race to recruit and onboard.

604

:

At the time, we had enough leverage.

605

:

I couldn't believe it when I'd be on

a sales call and I'd be like, our next

606

:

available start date is in 90 days,

but we're first come, first served.

607

:

Send me the contract.

608

:

I want to start in 90 days.

609

:

Okay.

610

:

Almost couldn't believe

it, but it happened a lot.

611

:

So I think when we didn't have enough

supply, it was like, okay, how are we

612

:

managing the expectations of customers?

613

:

How are we staggering start dates?

614

:

Okay.

615

:

I also came up with what I

called, I said, you know, you're

616

:

going to start in 90 days.

617

:

However, we have a pre onboarding

process that I'm going to enroll you in.

618

:

Because I needed to keep

them warm for 90 days, right?

619

:

So we would send them information,

we would have them start to do

620

:

some of the setup, we You know,

engage them with the vault.

621

:

We had all these different things that

we did in an effort to kind of keep

622

:

them engaged over that period of time.

623

:

Then coming into 2022, probably like

Q2 22 is when we started seeing churn

624

:

spike because of the impact of the

kind of macroeconomic conditions.

625

:

And then that's when my

supply exceeded the demand.

626

:

And that sucks.

627

:

And we're bootstrapped.

628

:

We don't have Lots of money

in the bank, and so we would

629

:

hold off as long as we could.

630

:

We did two layoffs in 2022, though

one in July and one in December.

631

:

And coming into 2023, we did our

best to cut what we thought was

632

:

needed in 22, but we knew that

it might not have been enough.

633

:

So in 2023, I just took a very different

approach because of, The damage to the

634

:

culture that those two layoffs created

we are always transparent, but I was the

635

:

most transparent we had ever been with,

like, literally telling people, like,

636

:

here's the road map, here's the runway.

637

:

If we don't hit X, Y, and Z, we're

going to have, you know, Too many

638

:

designers or too many X and we're

gonna have to make a change, right?

639

:

And so although we had different folks

either leave voluntarily or if we had

640

:

to kind of manage people out we were

doing it in a very different way of like

641

:

boom you come into work and like you're

shocked with a layoff and it was like

642

:

Hey, I can pay you until the end of May,

but I don't think I can pay you after.

643

:

So you should probably start

to look for other work, right?

644

:

The other thing that we did in

:

645

:

bring revenue into the business.

646

:

So we did a lot of experiments

and sold a lot of random things to

647

:

generate revenue in the short term

as to try to like buy us more time,

648

:

So there are no easy answers to this.

649

:

I would always rather operate

with more demand than supply

650

:

Justin Norris: did you find that operating

with that kind of radical transparency?

651

:

Did that at least, help, you know,

that people felt that they were aware,

652

:

and mitigate a bit of that anxiety.

653

:

I

654

:

Megan Bowen: I think it helped,

but I think it also hurt.

655

:

I think it helped because people knew

where they stood, but then it hurt

656

:

because then there was this sort of

perpetual state of anxiety that is

657

:

very typical for companies to kind

of keep at the leadership level.

658

:

And Only expose the broader company to,

and those kind of like shock layoff days.

659

:

So I, don't know, to be honest I

was personally really drawn to

660

:

saying we just can't do a third

layoff and blindside the team.

661

:

So I'm gonna take this approach

and I know that it has downsides.

662

:

I know that it's not the perfect approach,

but I think that this approach will

663

:

help us rebuild trust over the long run.

664

:

I would say the culture from

summer 22 towards I would say

665

:

like Q3 23, like a year and a few

months was really challenging.

666

:

But we persevered and I think

the benefit of that approach

667

:

anyway is reestablished trust.

668

:

With the team and leadership that we

were going to do everything that we

669

:

could to prevent what happened in 2022.

670

:

Even though maybe it makes people

feel a little uncomfortable.

671

:

Justin Norris: mean, speaking

as someone who's been an agency

672

:

employee, I've never been an agency

owner, but I would rather know, the,

673

:

Megan Bowen: We're all adults here, right?

674

:

Justin Norris: I think you can plan.

675

:

And I don't know, I think the

trust part, even if everything

676

:

isn't rosy all the time.

677

:

If you feel that, you know,

where you stand and you know,

678

:

where the company stands,

679

:

Megan Bowen: Clear is

680

:

kind,

681

:

at the end of the day,

even if it's disappointing.

682

:

Justin Norris: just thinking a little

bit about, as you alluded to, you

683

:

know, Chris, being the kind of visionary

and the innovator and, and always

684

:

thinking of new things, has the core

philosophy, the core approach, Changed

685

:

at all over the past four or five years

686

:

Megan Bowen: the core of the strategy

and the philosophy has remained the same.

687

:

The ways that it has evolved

has been additive, right?

688

:

Additive strategies, additive tactics

additive measurement approaches,

689

:

but the core of it hasn't changed.

690

:

I get this question a lot from people

because they're like, the LinkedIn,

691

:

you know, echo chamber, like everybody

says demand creation, demand capture,

692

:

like these are like old concepts, like

this isn't new, everybody's talking

693

:

about this, but I'm like, okay.

694

:

I'm like, I literally talk to seven

to ten companies a week, and I can

695

:

tell you confidently that 80 percent

of the B2B companies out there

696

:

are not doing any of it at all.

697

:

And so I'm like, I get it.

698

:

I get it.

699

:

We're in this echo chamber.

700

:

I get it.

701

:

We've been saying the same

thing for four to five years.

702

:

The problem is still there.

703

:

The market opportunity is still there.

704

:

Just because it's been discussed a lot

doesn't mean it's been adopted widely.

705

:

And so this is what I

like to remind people of.

706

:

I'm like, you know that you're doing your

job well in branding and positioning your

707

:

company and telling your story when you

start to get sick of telling your story.

708

:

And that actually means

you're not quite done yet.

709

:

You need to keep telling it.

710

:

And this is where I think Chris

and I take a different approach.

711

:

You know, one of the things that kind

of I was drawn to Chris was his like

712

:

visionary spirit, his innovative spirit,

his desire to create new things,

713

:

develop new language for concepts.

714

:

And I love that.

715

:

It's exciting.

716

:

It's cool.

717

:

Like it's fun.

718

:

It's inspiring.

719

:

I lean more on the Direct, blunt,

clear, like let's just be clear, let's

720

:

be specific, let's explain things,

let's not get too caught up on some of

721

:

the language or this and that, right?

722

:

And I'm not saying my approach

is right or better, I'm just

723

:

saying it's how I operate, right?

724

:

It's how I see the world,

it's how I communicate.

725

:

And so, relative to where

Refine Labs is in its journey.

726

:

It is an established business

now, and what's most important is

727

:

actually operational excellence.

728

:

Actually making a huge dent in the

number, the percentage of B2B companies

729

:

that are actually shifting their

strategies and their execution tactics.

730

:

That's the game now for RefineLabs.

731

:

So, now, if you look at Pacetto,

Chris's new venture, he's back in the

732

:

exploration, innovation, and innovation.

733

:

Seeing things, describing patterns,

coming to new conclusions,

734

:

that's his happy place, right?

735

:

That's his zone of genius.

736

:

But Posetto is a three person startup, has

a desire to be a software company, right?

737

:

And sort of they're focusing on

tech enabled services right now.

738

:

So just like the early days of

RefineLabs, when that was true for

739

:

the category that we're in now,

It's just a different approach is

740

:

needed given the stage that we're at.

741

:

Right.

742

:

So it's recognizing that and I think it's

just and that was I think where Chris and

743

:

I find it finally came to the conclusion

that this was the right decision

744

:

and that we could divide and

conquer in this way to make

745

:

both companies successful.

746

:

Justin Norris: makes perfect sense.

747

:

And I think that's also a good lead

into probably the last question we'll

748

:

have time for around making a dent.

749

:

In the market and actually, shifting

people to these new practices.

750

:

And the vault, which is sort of the

way I think of it as kind of like

751

:

your productized IP library, where

you have all your best practices.

752

:

I've had an account there.

753

:

to kind of broaden the access

to that, which I think is a

754

:

really exciting opportunity.

755

:

Maybe you can just tell us

a little bit about that.

756

:

I'm really gotten a lot of value

out of the resources there.

757

:

And you recently announced a partnership

with Aspireship, to kind of broaden

758

:

the access to that, which I think

is a really exciting opportunity.

759

:

Maybe you can just tell us

a little bit about that.

760

:

Megan Bowen: Yeah, I'm

really excited about this.

761

:

So we've known Corey at

Aspireship for a long time.

762

:

He used to be a Refine Labs customer.

763

:

He hired us back in, in early 2021 to

grow their business and have really

764

:

developed a great friendship with him.

765

:

Their platform is awesome.

766

:

And they were initially anchoring on

sales and customer success courses.

767

:

I actually filmed the customer

success course with Corey, given my

768

:

background and experience and their

whole, mission is so noble, right?

769

:

They're here to like upskill

and reskill the workforce.

770

:

So people that maybe came from education

or manufacturing or other industries

771

:

could kind of break into B2B SaaS

if that was what they wanted to do.

772

:

And this was a vehicle with

which they could build their

773

:

skills and get their first job.

774

:

So Corey approached me in the beginning

of this year and said I've been

775

:

wanting to build a marketing course

and I can't think of a better partner.

776

:

To do it with and refine labs, and

I think this is an opportunity.

777

:

You know, he's like, what's

your plan for the vault?

778

:

I think there's an opportunity here for

us to create another Avenue where we

779

:

can leverage all this amazing content

you've created in a different context

780

:

to broaden and extend the impact, And

they were clear financial incentives

781

:

for everybody for a spireship for refine

labs, and it's actually totally free.

782

:

To be marketers.

783

:

If they go through this application

process and get approved.

784

:

And so it was a no brainer to me.

785

:

I think that the vault started as

a content and information product.

786

:

At one point last year, we thought maybe

the vault would be the foundational for

787

:

this go to market software analytics

that Chris has visions for it.

788

:

Pacetto.

789

:

And so when we decided he was going

to separate that entity, it was

790

:

an opportunity to be like, what is

the long term plan for the vault

791

:

then, if that's not it anymore?

792

:

And really lean into content,

education, and community.

793

:

And so, my goal is, you can still

buy an account to the vault, right?

794

:

And we'll still monetize it in

that way, although I actually,

795

:

significantly lowered pricing to

make it more accessible to people.

796

:

But this is how we'll actually be

able to extend our impact, right?

797

:

I know that if we can get thousands of

B2B marketers to go through this course,

798

:

that we're effectively educating and

training like the next generation of

799

:

CMOs on how to think about marketing,

And that's honestly, that was one of

800

:

the main reasons I teamed up with Chris

to begin with was we had both been

801

:

personally burned by growth at all

costs, by mismanagement of go to market

802

:

strategies at companies, and we wanted

to be a part of that change, right?

803

:

So I think what I'm most excited about

is Aspireship and this partnership gives

804

:

us the ability to, broaden the impact

in a way beyond just hiring us as your

805

:

agency, not everybody's going to hire

us as their agency, and that's fine.

806

:

Additionally, to the point we were talking

about earlier, if we can really generate a

807

:

high margin revenue stream for the vault.

808

:

It allows us to weather some of those

inevitable bad quarters or storms

809

:

that come and keep our team intact.

810

:

Justin Norris: Well,

that's super exciting.

811

:

And again, you know, have firsthand

experience with the resources.

812

:

They're just super valuable.

813

:

being able to access that for free

Hope people take advantage of it.

814

:

Best way to access that if people

are interested, they just go

815

:

through the refined labs website,

816

:

Megan Bowen: Just go to

the Refine Labs website.

817

:

You'll actually see a banner on the

website for the next couple months.

818

:

Click here to learn more

about the Aspire ship.

819

:

You can fill out a quick form to

request information, and then we'll

820

:

send you all the details to get started.

821

:

Super easy.

822

:

Just go to refine

823

:

labs.com.

824

:

Justin Norris: Amazing.

825

:

Well, that's very exciting.

826

:

And yeah, Megan, such a pleasure

again, sitting down with you.

827

:

Super interesting conversation.

828

:

Thank you for coming on the show.

829

:

Megan Bowen: Thank you for having me.

830

:

I really appreciate it.

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