Men and women have different challenges and experiences in relationships.

Here we spoke about some of the big challenges for a man in navigating relationships and how women perceive these.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the past, helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Today, we have the male journey, male relationship journey, and we're missing most of the men. So well done, Stephen Colbert and Stewart, for being here.

Okay, so while people are still joining, Will, can you open up the breakout range? So the question for the breakout room is. What do you see as men's main relationship challenges? Casey, what do you think of the main relationship challenges that man faces? So I think what we're going to do for this one is to break up agendas so we'll have a men's and women's room. So what we've got is the reality of men's experience and a perception of men's experience from a woman's perspective, and then hopefully we can make sense of that from this Saami.

We go to break. Let's see how many men we got. One. All right.

I didn't get like you. You're going to put all men together and women separate. It was like just to hear the men experience from the male point of view. And like, we'll be like we've got some female. We have, like, mixed with top female Johnny.

Yeah, well, actually, what we're looking for here is two things we're looking for for men's experience, but we're also looking for women's perceptions of men's experience. Because what the what the to the idea of these two journeys needs to meet ups is that what I see is. Men treat women as men, women treat men as women, and there is a big difference in perception and orientation whenever wherever that difference comes from, whether it's genetic or whether it's conditioning.

But what I see is a different orientation. And so if we were able to get. The real real experience of men, how they perceive their journey, and then it's more of a perception of seeing men. And how women perceive the Jenny. So no sense. No, true, but let's try if it makes sense, we want the men to to to speak for themselves and we are to speak from our perspective about that. Yes, so yes, yes.

So the women's group is to try to understand from their view and the men's used to talk about their experience. Welcome back, everyone. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to put in a chat. I I've got a document. And in that document, anyone can go there and write what they think some of the challenges are for men. And then we'll look at. So in the chat, you'll see that document, if you click the link, you'll be able to put what you think are some of the challenges.

OK, so let's start with the women. So we had two groups. Who would like to summarize? Well, one of the groups said, I know there was a battle, so who could who could who could give who could give their comments in one of the groups and the other group seemed to be going along. So who's going to go to the first group? I want speaking for my group, people have an influence. I think things that came across were trust and monogamy being an issue from guys.

So as in men trusting women, um, I think it was more.

We. May not be so trustworthy within monogamy, which they possibly by members, have no communication and conflict result in and be vulnerable, I think is what I told, especially about any issues that they might have to face within themselves.

OK, OK. Can I just go a little bit more into the communication? In the communication, what was the problem? Yeah, difficulty communicating with partners and conflict resolve, and so often people don't want to be honest, I don't want to say or they find it difficult to open up or basically stonewalling them and just don't want refusing anyone, anyone else want to jump in before we move on? I believe it was obvious when the fight sorry, no one does.

So Agnes would not give in.

She would not allow me to stay quiet this week. So here goes fear of commitment and emotional connection and yeah, opening up and connecting, afraid of being vulnerable and of course, holding on to their emotions. That's all in what we put that all together in one. Not telling you how you felt emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. And even if you can see it and it's clear that that's what's happening, it's very difficult for them to acknowledge it. It's like, oh, I've got it.

I've got a grain of sand in my eye. That's why I'm crying. OK, getting them to understand and this comes back to communication that not every problem needs them to fix it. Sometimes it's just to listen. It's very difficult to get them just to listen. And it's hard for them and we think that maybe it's hard for them to listen to the tedious listing of issues that women had to go for. There you go. The details so that you don't at these these details are important to us because it creates the story.

It gives the context that you have to understand all of that. There you go. Right.

Can you say all that again?

There you go. I will fall asleep and you fall off. Yeah.

OK, the fear of appearing weak is an important thing for them. The next one is adhering to the stereotypical macho persona, we think that that's kind of changing in the younger generation, in some countries, in some places. So hopefully I don't want to use the word metrosexual, but a man who is in tune with his softer side may be more forthcoming.

We had a discussion on this on a little bit when men meet you first. They are so keen on impressing you. But then there's a slump from the beginning to becoming more of a couch potato slob, kind of inattentive. All of those you can choose, not all of them, but, you know, versions of and degrees off. I think the inattentiveness ties in quite nicely there. It's more about the football and the mates than sometimes anyway, that's on the table.

And we this is interest in telling her it's horrible when you ask a man what's the matter? And it's clear that they're they're visibly angry and they say nothing. Because you can't go any further with them. OK, yes, the kind of stuff, yeah. OK, and also trying to, uh, what you call it now, Azzedine Genyornis, how genuine are oftentimes how do I know how they're doing and if it's genuine, what initially or in a relationship?

In a relationship sometimes. If they genuinely mean what they say. Yeah, well do. OK, so they may do something, but why would they not? Sometimes sometimes it's a game, sometimes it's it's it's. It's to put you off guard sometimes it's just to teach, I suppose some people try to teach you a lesson, Strangeways, so whatever. So they do something which is not what you would expect somebody to do if they're in tune with you.

If you know what I mean, they are really in tune with their emotions and they are really caring, then their behavior would not be. What they are exhibiting to you, what anyone else from that group?

The noisy group. OK, boys. Your turn. So what what we find so far is perception, and so now we're going to get experience and after that, the more Choying dig beneath the experiences of the perception's to get to the reality. So from the men's group wants to start off.

So I stop you and I made a few notes. And one thing is living up to expectations of the male role model as a challenge and also confusion of changing expectations. What a male role model might be over time and vulnerability was something that was mentioned. But I think that this inability to be vulnerable, this is I think is perhaps based on the fear of rejection or perhaps a fear of emotional support or a lack of a lack of trust that the woman could actually handle the issue and.

And not overloading that. Those are the boats, I think are the key things that we discussed, communication may be a little bit. In terms of when perhaps expecting them to get to know things or to be mind readers. I think there is a fear of rejection, just maybe an underlying real pressure of financial expectation to be the main provider. And. I think maybe it's an isolated case, but but melodrama, I think, is perhaps sometimes an issue where where things are blown out of proportion or worse situations are created in order to create unnecessary conflict.

So that perhaps is an avoidance of that rather than resolution of issues. And the other thing that we've got in terms of dating was to do with competition and feeling that women had all the choices that the men had pressure them dating and building relationships, and that they were competing with all the other expectations and opportunities that women might perceive. I think this is the key thing.

We've got quite a list. Is there anything else before we before we go, anyone else got anything to add? Just going to quickly say. I think what we're seeing here is that actually a lot of these things or many of them actually particular agenda or the actually male and female can be capable of certain behaviors. And mom might say, oh, it's fine. Or a woman might say, oh, it's fine. But so, yeah, I think some of the things perhaps are less gender orientated.

I don't I don't I didn't catch I didn't catch while I was called before call Steve.

So I'm trying to multitask, I'm afraid of I think one thing is I'm not saying who everybody is in the group, but I don't I don't think we've got anybody who's going early 20s. I don't know. But I'm just trying to decide. I guess everybody's got a probably a history of at least one bad relationship or maybe even bad dating, which might be just, you know, two or three days late. So not really long term relationships are pretty much in both women and men feeding off what colleges said.

We've all had at least one bad experience. Both men are women. Yeah, that's very true. That could be a barrier. Yeah, I think that's significant as well.

Just coming back through that because we all want to run before we even know how to walk. We should a little bit slow down. We shouldn't expect it. That quickly defeats. And quite often men start forcing themselves into the nation rather than just to beat themselves. We don't need competitions, but it's not competitions if you are unique. It shouldn't be up to the standards to go out and be yourself. I don't like to be like others called the real football players real football players by having a fun game, not about money they're enjoying.

They're not forcing themselves any more. And that's a pleasure. It's a little bit both side, I think that's what we must be to see. That's why I am I can give you a D d, d, d. But when you do that, you actually read it yourself because you do your best to show. But now today you take the very best and it begins. And later on it's kind of got the saltiness. You should celebrate in the beginning of the night with the back up.

What I have to say, I totally get it. And I never feel competition. I feel competition. I'm not being my to self just to have just the heart of a connection with somebody. At the end of the day, maybe it becomes a relationship, maybe it doesn't. And for me, it's about trying to be fooled into thinking is gender specific, actually. And it's I think it's a story I have in my mind. And the person says they want to be born when I have those kinds of conversations and the type of believe and this is my story in my head mostly I think they can meet the person and it can be a male or female kind.

Feel anxious, but we get to. And it's something I could have talked about, different kinds of vulnerability, so I'm talking about natural vulnerability where Dilshad and. Change in attitudes about how we feel about everyday events and about the relationship, I don't generally feel with gender specific about I feel like I'm kind of you know, I was going to add something. I don't know if there's any truth to this or if anyone agrees. I'm not saying that I necessarily think this is a phenomenon that I've observed.

Is that definitely in terms of gender, is it is it fair to say that men feel more comfortable being intimate after sex, whereas women would prefer more intimacy in order to have sex? I don't know if that's true or if anyone's observed that, but. Could that be said or is anybody talked about that in psychological books? No, I think most men and women probably the same. In this regard. I don't think so. I think men could be more emotional after 6:00 in the morning.

Sorry if they're not falling asleep, men can be more emotional after sex, so you can speak about more emotional stuff, but before it there. So you agree then, yeah. I also agree with Carl, I will say it relates to how two people see this particular interaction if they're not intimate before a bit of oxytocin after sex won't make them more intimate. That's my point of view. If they are sort of more in love before then, probably they will become more intimate after.

But if there was nothing like no connection because there is no like because the man isn't sort of serious and they don't want to connect, they just have sex and that's it, things like that. So nothing correlated. Hi, everyone. Thank you. I just wanted to respond to someone talked about, I think, as you said, that so it's a different topic, but it's said that we just need to be ourselves. And and I totally agree with that.

And I think what I'm struggling with probably is that is. I want to be myself, but at the same time. I am the victim of some pattern, some family pattern, so I'm talking about my family like my mom and my dad and. I think it's for me, it's difficult to let say. I'm a bit lost in what is right and what's wrong, and I don't have a parent parental model that I can refer to when I have doubt about something in my relationship.

I never had an uncle to talk to and never had a grandpa, a grandmother. So in terms of being yourself, it's like, what does that mean being use of does that mean being you self? Regardless of. What you saw in your own family, or does that mean. And being yourself, but being yourself is also what you are coming from, so that's that's a difficult one, I think. Thank you.

So in terms of being yourself. If you're just being yourself. Do you need someone to talk to you about that or do you need. And I just wanted to share what I'm going through. So there is something I wanted to say and I'll pass over to Jonathan, but there was something I just wanted to say that I probably should said upfront in framing this is that I think that we have to look at and I think most of what we talked about is problems of judgment, problems of shame.

And I think the big issue that we all have is that we feel what we've been told, that we shouldn't be whatever is natural to us. We've been told that we should do something else. And so. There is, I think, from some people of some discomfort in feeling like they're judging men and perhaps a defensiveness from men in terms of feeling judged. But what we have to look at in relationships, I think, and in life is no.

Is it good or bad, but where does it come from? Everything every behavior has there's a lineage. So everything that we do and everything that we feel comes from what we believe comes from what we think from our frame of reference and. So. What what we think is basically determining what we do and how we feel, and so we have to look at whether whether those beliefs come from. So I do think that we do have to be ourselves.

OK, so so I think most of it is that we have to unlearn what everyone else is telling us. So I'm going to say in a little while where I see the key challenges and a little bit about where they come from, because I think what we need to do is I think what was clear is we do have a problem with communication. We do have a problem with vulnerability. I think the issue of trust is huge rejection and all of these things.

But what's going to be more important than looking at superficial judgments is where did these come from? And if they're widespread, it's not an individual judgment issue, but a fact of where they come from. So I think when we look at relationships, fifty five percent of relationships are most committed relationships. Marriages fail, and you can't look at that as being an individual problem. And yeah, I think there is a pressure from us social pressure, peer pressure, societal pressure that we felt when our relationship felt, but how can you win more of them than don't?

So I think we have to look at what's the systemic problem. And it's the systemic problem which causes a problem in all relationships. So what we're looking at is what are we looking at? What are the superficial problems that we experience or perceive? And then the next is where does it come from? It's not about this. Men should do this. Men shouldn't do this. It's about, okay, this is what happens. But where does that behavior come from?

Janice. Yet, thank you. It's actually very interesting what you say, but also last time you say something and that's really hit me, you know, when you say the friends only say what they want to hear, so similar to our caution mind and some caution, mind working what we want. It's not exactly what we need. Because we all want muscles, but you need to work for that, nobody really wants us to do that. It's seen in everything.

What we really want, that's not what we really need sometimes. So that's why we got a title. But our portion, our solution might be not listening to our source. So that's why we are not ourselves, because we suppress their emotions. They just get that feeling after. And about the frame of reference, it's actually a program. It's coming from our past, as you say. Ninety five percent of your knowledge to date comes from yesterday by thirty five years old.

Ninety five percent of our behavior. It's a program. So you just automatically acting. You're not even experienced. And that could be the underlying issue, Aswath. Thank you. The. Yeah, well, I just need some opinion from the group is my question is that why do men then to pull away when there is a conflict in a relationship? OK, before before we get into that, I want to set out now, having looked at those, I think that's one of the key areas.

But I think what we want to do is frame now where are we going to devote the next hour and a half, two hours to let's set some frames up and then we will explore that conflict is going to be a huge one. OK, so so when I looked through, I think really there's about six key key problems. I think rejection, so I think rejection, I think there's a lot of pressure on men that. Men have to sort to see women, whereas a woman can be really shy and she'll still get approached.

A man can be very shy and not be approached. And so men don't learn to overcome the fear of rejection, tend not to get into relationships or they stumble into a relationship. So there are lots of men, mid to late 20s who never had a relationship, still virgins. And then, like, there's a lot of pressure of I don't know what to do. I'd never been in a relationship. And I think that's the pressure that women typically don't face as much.

Of course, there are examples, but a lot of women still get approached, however shy they are. I think the humiliation, as in there is people have talked about there's pressure to pay paper, there's a pressure for men to impress that there's a pressure to perform. So as in. Men, typically, from the story they've been given, feel that they need to impress a woman to be good enough and. Then there's then so they need to impress you and satisfy, and so then there's a pressure for them to be good enough in terms of status, charisma, paying for things, humor to be attractive enough to have the right moves, to have the right words and to essentially to satisfy a woman.

And if a man falls in any, there's a fear of humiliation, of not being a man.

So then there's a fear of betrayal, as in if a man is going to journey through the relationship journey, then he's going to have to commit to not the commit to one. And that is the age-Old. Like, if we look at we're looking at reproducing our genes and if we look at that's the motivation, one of the core like core drives is to eat, sleep, eat, sleep, reproduced. So. Every woman knows that as a child she bears is hers.

A man always has a. And so I think this is where there's a. An issue of trust, and it's just an age old dilemma that means that so a man has to deal with the fear of betrayal. Obviously, women have the same fear, but in a different way. So then I think there is one of shine, which is where we can communicate, because if a man is vulnerable and does reveal he's I think there is a lot of pressure on men like man up, a man can't ever be seen to be weak, can't ever seem to be unmanly and to be vulnerable.

And that can be used then as a source of shame. And I think the whole patriarchal figure of a man needs to be in control, needs to know where he's going, needs to be in charge of his household. I think failure is a one failure, as in the sense of can't make the woman happy. Talking about typical heterosexual relationships, a fear of not feeling respected is seen as a failure. And then the other one is not specific to relationships.

But it's men typically have low social support. Most men don't have friends that they would rely on in the same way that women they will. They don't have as many as they don't have that same social pressure, social support. And then I think also men are dealing with a huge issue in terms of changing roles, which has been mentioned of the expectations that we have of us.

OK, so now what I'm trying to do is from looking at what what we've covered, picking free three or four key topics. That we feel that the most pressing and that we can cover in our time together tonight. I think those changing those things is quite important to understand.

Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, I think they're definitely changing. I don't think I think he's still moving. I don't think he's settled. I don't think anyone really knows. It's just going to mention something about the social blueprint, but even more than that, it's a sea apperception. So I don't know if anybody saw this video years ago of a typical California blonde just of all by herself. And the amount of sort of musclebound guys that walk past didn't say anything, didn't go up to her.

And in the end, it was rather unremarkable men that would come up and start speaking to and didn't have any kind of physical presence or flashiness. So does that come from some sort of insecurity or mental hierarchy? I don't know, because if the guys who in perception don't really look anything in particular, then what does that speak of? What does that say? Well, I think if you but if you are a man who is, I suppose, not the best local and you are charming enough to get a local as a girlfriend, then you move to the top of the pecking order.

And if you are a very attractive man, you don't feel that to chase after attractive women, they should be chasing after you. So maybe that's why they walk past her. Whereas the other ones see her as a catch because that gives them status. I've seen the video come, and I remember it was like a skinny old man that finally comes up to and I think the point is that all the government's rejection, but he had nothing to lose, so he went upset.

That was the point. But I think, as Sandra said, something point to it. I think there's a vulnerability to relying on looks or something like that, because there's always someone prettier. There's always someone richer. There's always and whenever there's anything like that, your you can never be there's always going to be someone better. So there's always a fragility to like if you confidence in yourself, in who you are and there's always a fragility because there's always going to be someone better know you look at Usain Bolt was the fastest man for the decade or more, and eventually his time passed.

Lionel Messi, best footballer ever. And now was he 34? For how much longer? But we have to understand, too, that we are conditioned from we are very young to be the best at school, you are the best in your family. Who is the brightest, who is not right, who is pretty is not pretty. I mean, you've got these wretched Miss World. Miss and Mr. Lee, what was it that Schwarzenegger used to Mr.

Limpus or whatever it was, the bodybuilding thing, so it's this competition in every field. So we we feel that we need to measure up to these standards that why we need to compete them, why we need to worry the world is so stupid. If you're just worried about how the others will come along and maybe they are more beautiful, more smart, more aggressive, don't no more sexual. How do you want to live your life like that?

You cannot live like that. So you cannot live like your your life like always worry about something. What you do not have any say that. Any any in my brain just goes and I speak in Hungarian, so, yeah, and then the. So you do not have any effect on that. So you kind of worry about it is just stupid. And if and I do have a question about the men, they are. Worried about the infidelity is they are worrying about because they are most of the time who is keeping score or because and this is the reason why everybody thinks what the others do, because we are just to think about.

I, I would I would go and have sex with every woman. So, yeah, probably my girlfriend will cheat on me because maybe they have more opportunity than I have. Maybe, maybe sometimes we either a. I'm trying to think outside the. So he was asking before whether would. Competing with the opposite sex. We must be this, we must be that, so it could be the wrong person. Or we might be to ourselves, judging ourselves, thinking, oh, we must be brave, we must be, you know, we must be to a higher standard of ourselves and maybe it's communication with the sides.

But somebody else is saying, oh, you must pay for more or you must be free or you must be physically better looking. Maybe that you need to go. Well, this person isn't for me because they want to be before you.

I can I can I can I can I have to say in twenty five years I would if I want to compete with all the other women, I cannot do that. So I cannot worried about that. Am I funny? Yes. Do you like my sense of humor or not. So is that of course so many other people are more funnier, more and more smarter than me. But do you really need to write about it all the time?

Oh, I don't think it's a case of worry. Dr. Jordan Peterson is a psychologist. He actually talks about the all the way down to marine life that we have, you know, levels and order and structure and these these hierarchies, these things and competitiveness goes all the way to lobsters, up to a human being. So I don't know, sit there neurologically worrying about it, but it is fundamentally entwined into the animal kingdom. I think. So we did one of the meeting was about the free rebellion, meaning thinking free of dog non-thinking, free of drama and thinking free of ignorance.

So our model that we give him is. The model of the past is the patriarchal model. It's a model that our economy works on. So all of the messages that we get from the media. Tell us that we look for women, that we need to buy the skin cream to be loved for man, we need to have this call. And so all all of the media, all of the fairy stories, all of these things basically tell us the story.

So so I think if you look at patriarchy, so patriarchy has been around about ten thousand years and which is really come from an agricultural basis. So in patriarchy, men get to control the story. Men get in positions of power.

So. The man gets to a woman, becomes an object that is owned by the man, so the father will sort of sell her on in terms of a dowry and then it becomes she becomes in most Western constitutions, she was a legal property until fairly recently. So in the UK was it was in the late 19th century or early 20th century before a woman was allowed to keep her own money. So she inherited money from her family. It became the husband's money.

She didn't own it. She couldn't own anything. So what happens is there is this this I think there is this jealousy. So whenever we talking about being propagated or whether there's something else, there's a whole history of women, chastity belts and all these things because men are going off to fight wars and women are left at home. So men are jealous and then take measures. So there's like Eunuch's, there's a chastity belt. There's all of these ways.

And one of the ways is. Oh. What can things popping up on my screen? I'm one of the ways that we the culture dealt with that is by making like the whole like say when you look at how church has dealt with it, it's been like that the woman as a mother, as virgin. And so there's kind of an idealization of women. And. The idealisation says that women are not sexual, that women have sex to procreate and women have sex to make their husband happy.

Sorry, what? Where did that come from? That model.

But I. Well, I mean, it's basically the story we've been told, and I would look at that as being. Partly religious and partly social. So there's this idea. So, like when you look at the Virgin Mary. It symbolizes purity, it symbolizes like the Virgin Mary is is the idealization of the woman. And so. The story when the story becomes a good woman. Isn't interested in sex. But she'll do it as part of a relationship.

So that means that a lot of men have grown up. And I know this was true of me who grow up and I think, well, what a women want. They don't want the same as me. So I've got to prove that. And I think that's where there's a pressure to impress a woman. And you feel like, what do I have to do? I have to be funny. You have to have status. I have to have something that they and I think they like.

There's this whole nice guy phenomenon on dating sites like, oh, I'm a nice guy, why don't you why don't you like me instead of those bad boys and I'll be nice to you. And then when a woman is not interested, I like you fucking bitch. And I wasn't interested in you anyway. You're ugly. And it's like that pretense that so that there's something in that that men feel that they need to impress. They need to be the funniest.

They need to be have the status or they need to pretend to be nice or they need to pretend to be interested in a relationship even if they're not. Know something, you said the female can be sexually impressive or something. So what about the girls? They are OK, but is the rape? There's yes, hookers. Who is the you know, somebody who is going through working my working girls?

Yes. I didn't catch that. You said the women cannot be interested in sex, so they can just lay down like a log and doing nothing. Yeah, this is what they are. So what's happening when they are going to the brothers to to having sex meet the same woman who is getting paid for having sex with them and they have to enjoy the sex. So how is coming to so OK, they are not going to marry the working girls from the night but still.

They have they have to enjoy the sex, but sleep. So I was going to say, you said every woman should be death and do not know that somebody's not enjoying sex because.

Yeah, so then there's a demonization of women, isn't it? Because if a woman like sex, if a woman is sexual, that she's a slut. And so there's this whole view that there's a pressure from women to not be sexual, to not look like a slut. And then there's a. View of men that. They have to impress a woman and show a woman like have the woman's like to feel that it's a relationship before it's going to get sexual.

So I'm not saying that this is true, but I'm saying this is the story, you know, when you look at Victorian stories and beyond, this is the story that creates. This gap where men don't know what women want, women aren't able to be open about what they want because then there's judgment. And so in that gap is where there's a problem of so man feels like, what do I have to do? How do how do I attract a woman?

And this is why I think so many, many, so many men all feel that they need to know the lines they need to. This is why men look for what's to chat up line. I need to know how to why how do I attract a woman? And this is where there's like a lack of honesty. And so then when you look into the picture a little bit more, the model of patriarchy is man's head of the house. The man has to now be leader of the House.

He can't be questioned. So a woman's got no influence. A woman's got no power. So how does a woman get influence? She has to quiet. She can't it would men would lose face if she says, like, now, that's ridiculous. We're going to do this. So she has to be a little bit more just to use influence and be a little bit more manipulative in leading the men to the right way. Or like the better, the better powerful ever.

Does that make sense? So some men can't show weakness or not know what to do. Women can't tell a man what to do. So there's two levels of communication, which then creates a problem of communication. Does that make sense?

Yeah, but we are talking about this is the past now is changing so bad in this scenario is not changing anywhere. So it is the same. The men doesn't say what they want. The woman can say something. Or if they say something, maybe it's going to be an argument. So then we are going to level up for. In this scenario, it all boils down to fear from both sects. So, yes, so where this thing is, this is everything we've been told.

So, yes, it's not true now. But Janosz was talking about. Ninety five percent have it from from the past. So before the age of seven, 70 percent of everything we ever going to do on your neural pathways is connected up. So the understanding you had is pretty much what we run. So habits develop based on what we do. So the problems of communication aren't because we can't come in and everything we've learned, which is from the past, we can't then just override what you have to consciously develop a new habit, develop a better way of doing it.

And so the way that we communicate is the way that we've been taught to communicate. And Lena talked about no role models. I just there's a show of hands and we've done this before, who has had a good role model of who can you see that they've had a relationship that you would want to emulate? But, you know, one, two, three couples. Of like that, yeah, I'd love to have a relationship that you'd like to have with like them.

Yeah. Assister, so so some of us have it and some of us who has more relationships that are you wouldn't want than you would want. So I see more relationships, I wouldn't want to have so much relationship, so there are cases, there are people who've worked out, but this is why it takes work and that's what the work is on, is on communication, is on vulnerability. And so. Right, so that some background or a perspective on where some of these come from.

Does anyone else? So let's talk about I think communication is the big one that would be we agreed. OK, so does anyone have a different perspective? What do you think is number one? So we've got to talk about communication, so I think the main problem, the way that we've built up is. If we look at our past, we can see so patriarchy gave us a man had to be strong. So anything that's unmanly is shameful.

So someone who talked about a couple of people talked about stonewalling, where someone just shuts up and just doesn't say anything, which is predominantly 80 percent of stonewalling is done by men. And it appears that they don't care. It just looks like I can say anything. They just don't care. Well, I actually went and got them did research on this, and I saw people stonewalling what they saw because they had the more up that the man's stress level was off the roof.

A woman stress level was much lower in the same conflict. Twenty minutes later, a woman was back to normal. A man was still up there. And when you look at a man's always been hunter. Or warrior. So a man deals with conflict like traditionally, so we're looking that he went to war, it's always been men or mostly most of all history, and most of our culture has been men who go to war. So when you go to war, it means you're ready to kill someone or it means you're ready to be killed.

So for a man, conflict is about death. You know, even 100, 200 years ago, how did men sell being shamed and lack of honor by Jews? So a duel was fought to the death you died or they died. So for man. And when we were looking at genetically, genetically, like biologically, we don't change, we haven't changed in like one hundred thousand years, it likes to evolve. So we're not going to evolve.

So a hundred thousand years ago. We look at cavemen civilization. Very primitive culture, very primitive speech. Now look at the technology that we have, the technological knowledge that we have the like the size of our brain.

Has of all animals, we have the longest gestation period, we have the longest period of helplessness because our heads have evolved to be too big for us to be born ready to, like most animals, to get up and walk within a few months. So we have years of just cycle of preparing from being helpless. No animal with as helpless as we are when the bone. So even like we are suffering from disorders of like breathing and sinuses, because because of the growth of our brain has squashed our sinuses so that we can't breathe.

And naturally we would be able to show our intellect has grown massively so that we're able to create a nuclear bomb that can destroy the world that we can we can explore of the planets. But, yeah, our physiology. It's still reptilian. So when you look at the triune brain theory that we have the reptilian brain, we have a limbic brain which is more like animals, and we have a cerebral cortex, which is where we think. So we're here talking.

We're all rational. We're all like very intellectual women running around with our partner. We're more animalistic. We're more it comes from fear. So whenever you feel fear overrides all your intellect. So this is why what what's happened in the past affects us now, because that is what's laid down on neural pathways. So, you know, like people who have an accent and they've grown up and they changed the accent. And yet when they're angry, their action comes down.

Anyone seen that it's because it's more primal or primitive. So they when we're dealing with conflict, it's emotion and it overrides everything. And so for a man, that means death. And so that level of fear is it underpins domestic abuse because a man ever becomes violent or he shuts down. And so the shutting down is a way of coping with the intensity of emotions that he has without hurting his partner. So channel. Yeah, basically what I see now, you say the subtle things I can see, we are focusing too much in the communication, whether I don't get sort of the communication, the issue, because the words are just assumptions we don't really understand.

We all just see the way we wanted to see in and of update. Still so much listicle times, so many times. If you look at the animals deliberately by communicating, they actually using their body language, the pheromones and everything, and that's how they communicating only to feed somebody gets to their. But least like two dogs, they start barking for each other. That's my place. That's my place. Do you want to live like that? No, I'm just saying I'm just saying I'm just sick and sick and expediency and the humans we forget to experience because we try to think about what the person means.

And actually we are not in the presence at the same time. So we are creating already some knowledge that the person still talking. Yeah, but if you if it if you I remember right. Is you or somebody from the men group, the woman, most of the time they are expecting the men. They are mind reading. So do we need to communicate or not? Do need to know what I want from a relationship if I am not telling you, it's not just like come on around, if my one friends have sex because you have them or something.

So it's not enough. Come on. Yeah. Books or guest or I need just waiting in the bar checking two guys fighting for me. And who is the stronger. Maybe that's not my type but yeah he won. I'm going to have sex in the future but we don't like what we do. easyJet, we like what we actually we got the mystery behind and that's including the men and women suspects, whatever our. Traditional press the button and you get it and everybody expecting simulating the relationship.

This doesn't work this way. You'll have to create it. You have to work and you have to have a kind of little assumption behind the mystique otherwise would not last long.

Rob, you mentioned that the man shuts down because of the level of emotion that he's experiencing. But I feel that level of emotion to. I'm just as angry. I'm OK. So I think that would be right as to the two things are there. First is that perception. So maybe, maybe you do, but so when the governments were doing at. The level of stress shown in the woman's body was raised by the level of stress in the man's body was sky high.

So judging from the readings. And everyone's individual, of course, but this is a generalization, the woman stressed the woman's emotional levels there and a man was right out there and half an hour later, the woman's was back to normal. The man was still up there. So and I think maybe there's a and possibly possibly you feeling the same, but without measuring it, we don't know. But the second or agree with you, when you say that the level goes down quicker for the woman, I think that's actually agree with that without knowing the fact, knowing knowing the measurements.

But I think I know for myself, yes, I explode and angry and then I it's over and it's done. And I think the second the second part of that is that women are typically. More letterer and more able to express and express their emotions, whereas men typically. Are less aware of their emotions and less and less able to deal with the. Or is it afraid that they are going to seem vulnerable if you break? Yeah, well, OK, so I think yes, I think there's that I think one that men are typically I think when you look at studies, men are typically less emotional emotionally and able to deal with that.

But secondly, like you point out, men, men like for men to say, I'm sad for men to say I'm jealous for men to say I'm envious of men say I'm full of pride. All of those things show weakness. And so, like, not how modern these men can be angry or they can be grumpy. Because it's okay to be angry because it doesn't work, because you go to war with anger. And so when you look at going to war, it was a way of channeling anger.

So men went to war facing the fear that they could die. And it's by anger. And you can see that in sport like. I remember reading something from Roy King and Roy King is a football player and known as being angry and aggressive. And I remember him saying that he was terrified and that's why he was so aggressive, because he was always terrified that he was going to be shown up. He was wasn't going to be good enough. He wasn't strong enough.

He wasn't whatever enough. And so, like, even now, he's known for his tirades, but it all stems from fear. And so anger, fear is the fuel that sustains anger. So I think it's limited. I think that's a really good point. There's limited emotion or it's okay for a woman to cry. It's okay for a woman to say to feel a range of emotion that typically and this isn't isn't now, but is far from historically, that we can't screw with someone going to someone joining in.

And if someone was OK, so yes, I think women have access to a wide range of emotions. Yes, access to a wide range of emotions and have better social emotional, so. Okay, so a quick poll from women. What how would you how do you cope when you're really angry? How do you cope? How do you let go of that? I am aggressive if I'm angry because you're aggressive right here to fight. And how do you calm down?

I need to get off my steam if I'm shouting, if I can maybe heat something up. Yeah, something. So yeah, it's up a half an hour. Yeah I'm fine, but I need to. Let's let out the steam. OK, so you're in the middle of a while, you'll get really angry, really aggressive. How do you.

OK, maybe I'm getting older and I'm getting more calm, but. Yeah, so it's it's if I'm getting I'm just being more and more louder and after one point I'm just give it up. OK, thank you. And I know when I see that point when I can't control myself anymore, maybe I'm just leaving the place because it's better before I say something. What I do. That's fun to say really. So, yes, so you can keep your anger verbal.

Yeah, and so one of the things that men have less have less say I'm even struggling for the words less communicative, less less verbally able. And so if you don't have the words and you're stumbling like me, what do you do? So for many, regardless, but for many men, if you don't have if you don't have the if you're not very, very good at communicating, it's the ability to articulate your anger and your fears, which which you say, anyway, I can understand what to say, because for me, if I am angry and I have to communicate in English, it's more harder for me because I, I don't know the right words.

And it's more easier to say something really hurtful in Hungarian because I know the right words. But still I am able to define somehow describe what I feel and it's a different language. So come on, you can do that if it's not a good excuse. WOMAN Oh, I can't find the right words. Why is your language so it's in your brain.

OK, so what you've done is you've taken your experience and made a judgment. So when you do that, what you said to a man is you should be able to get enough. Because I think what we have to look at, I didn't say you are not enough, you are not good enough, you have to find a way to tell me what why you are angry. If you can't, you are just me. Do you need to read a little bit more book so you have a vocabulary that's equivalent to saying we are not good enough?

I know that you didn't say that. But in the way that in the end, what you said, if you said, OK, look, I could do and I can do it from a different language and I think this is what we do. So I'm not picking on you because we all do it. We all go, yeah, but you should do it because Iraq is hard for me not to. But what we're not doing there is we're not respecting someone else's experience that someone else said.

And this is why I said I don't judge but understand because this is what we do in relationships, in relationships. We judge people by our experiences. And it's and there's also like the fundamental attribution error means that we judge other people differently from ourselves because we see ourselves into we experience ourselves internally. We see other people externally. So we don't understand. They make up what's driving them. So when we say, look, I can do it and it's hard for me, but I can still do it, and to a man that can often seem you're not good enough.

Look, I can do it. Why can't you?

Because a man who maybe maybe has a different makeup, but they are not saying, you know, if somebody is crying and they feel they are do achieve what they want to find because, OK, at least they pride. OK, so why aren't they trying to.

You are mentally nonsensical, though, because, you know, if you're having an argument with a wall compared to a pit bull, it's going to be completely different. So you can't say it's what you are in relation to somebody else and their responses. And if as an individual you're finding that you're in the same dynamic with multiple individuals, then that's you. That isn't about the other person. If it's continual like. Yeah. And that's a yeah. There's a couple of key things that.

But that is exactly what happens and. Yeah. We have this whole protective figure, all of us, that we have this protective thing that we don't want to feel bad. And so what we do, we say it's not it's not us, it's them. And this is where I was talking about the friends. Friends will say, oh, yeah, that's don't you. There's nothing wrong with you. But yet we will then blame the partner, our partners.

It was them. It was them. Is this situation into them? Because we don't want to change. And really what you've pointed out is it's our relationship journey is always us. And so it becomes this whole thing of you shouldn't blame like it. Yeah, there is this thing that is a bit rude to blame someone. And yet we can only be sure of relationship success if we take responsibility for it. And if we feel that we don't have responsibilities because they won't communicate, because they won't do this, they won't do that, then we're never in control.

And so we want so we want we keep moving to different people having the same things but never resolving them, because fundamentally, deep down, it's all of us. And before I go back to Janice, though, just to point out something that you mentioned and you said communication and I agree. I agree. The presenting problem is communication. But we can all communicate work. We can you have a level of communication, as Agnes says, we all have the ability to do it verbally.

We all know how to say that the issue is a vulnerability, that we scared of saying the wrong thing. We're scared of being judged for who we are. So, Stephen, I see your hand up, but Janosz was in first, so gentlemen, Stephen. So basically, I think we are looking a slightly different view. We should never look at gendercide. It's a little bit more like left brain, right brain one, it's more emotionally working, another one more working logically.

And that's why we can see so many people who are. If you see men, they are acting as the female and opposite, so we all capable, they'll have both emotions and acting a slightly different way. Why? Sometimes you see a woman who cannot handle themself in the way because they actually start somewhere, somehow make it active, the other side of brain, which cannot handle it. And the opposite demands when they get emotion because they never really thought how to handle that.

So they can not capable to work on happens or conflict to match open. And it looks like a crying baby or as you say, shut down. Because I don't know what's that, that's the enemy, let's shut down, we're being done, that's how it's working out. God. OK, so, yes, I think what we're moving to is masculine and feminine femininity or like if you talk about logic and emotion, right side, left side.

But I think because of the past. And I think where we were at the point of confusion, because what we've had is we've had strongly defended so if you want to go back 50 years, you couldn't like if you were if you look at how many homosexual people were never able to come out in public. Because of the pressure, because of the shame and what was it, 1960s that we were looking at where it was homosexuality was decriminalised. So now you've got you can choose gender and you can choose pronouns and all of those things.

So this is the point of confusion. So we are the generation of confusion. But what we've got to look at is we we're 30, 40, 50 years old. So what we learned has come from our parents, which we're looking at 50 to 70 years ago. So there's a. Because we're not just working intellectually, there's this whole baggage that we have to look at that came from the past, so. I think it is, I think.

As we as we progress and as we evolve and we work through this confusion to the future, I think there is going to be more of a masculinity femininity. But I think for people of our generation, where I think most of us kind of live in about a 20 year period we're looking at. I think there is a lot of agenda that we have of what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman. But don't you think that it is a meeting in the middle, so to speak, of both parties in that it's very difficult and maybe that's why we need therapists so, so much that we need a neutral umpire to allow us the space to actually put our difficulties on the table without recrimination, incrimination and and sort of work through how we can actually come to a compromise in our behaviors.

In other words, sometimes things get to us that we that we haven't even articulated to the other person. They don't even know that what they're doing aggravates us. Because we are unable to see we find it very difficult to say to the other party and they do it, it makes us angry, they keep on doing it, we get angry, but we never see this really affects me negatively or whatever. So we are. Back to communication in a way, again, but also we need the language to be able to see these things without denigrating the other person is very true.

Yeah. OK, so Steve, Steven, an uncle, OK, you focused on anger. And there are a couple of things I would like to say. One of the things is that there is this kind of this kind of expectation that men and women are the same and yet biologically they are different. And the key components, these hormonal with anger, and that's to do with adrenaline and testosterone. And that's a natural response. So it's naturally understandable that a male would become more angry than perhaps female because because the male role in.

In the animal kingdom, if you like, is to go and find that all they need to have the hormones to enable them to to to deal with that. So it's understandable that men might be more. More aggressive and more angry when put into those situations, and I think there's another factor which is true with expression, expression of emotion, and if your expressions are trained to be repressed, I think that there is some additional anger if you are not able to get your point across or to win your case.

And that that's kind of resentment, anger, if you like, and that kind of you to go together. So if your emotional battle is that you're angry, you're not intellectually capable of not thinking capably because the anger and the emotions are overwhelmed. So it is understandable that to avoid that overwhelming emotion then might shut down and not communicate until the point in which they have rational argument that they want to to make in order to make their case. And there's another point, which is to do with programming, which is what you talked about in that you said that of the 70 percent, I think, of all of our responses on that phone and the hate is generated by the time we are seven.

And I would say that the children up to the age of seven, the biggest component in their life is you've got your father and your mother. Those are the two biggest components, but predominantly it's the mother because she is with the child the majority of the time or more of the time. And so. A lot of the programming that we have in terms of relationships comes from that relationship. And I saw at one point, but I didn't see all the way through a very brief study where they were examining this and they found that women treated male children, even babies, differently than they treated female ones.

And they have different and perhaps unreasonable expectations of them. And so perhaps that's where our gender let's listen to gender issues there. That's the hormonal gender differences, which we can't ignore because they are real and not natural. And there is also learned behavioral differences to gender sort of upbringing. I think that it's the two things that I wanted to bring in here, which I think are quite important.

Yeah, definitely a good point about hormones, which is something that we have skipped over. But yeah, it's yeah, there are biological differences as well, which and hormones are huge. It's like anyone who's going through hormone treatment or had any kind of hormonal change, you can see the impact it has on everything and mood every month. Thank you, Carl. I found this a lot of this conversation quite frustrating and unnerving. I have been joking in the text a little bit, but so this is my train of thought that when we look at the animal kingdom, many animals cannot distinguish their own reflection.

So what makes this different is that we have self-awareness. Now, I appreciate we can't uncover and discover parts of our behaviors unless we examine them. But Sandra was talking about therapy, which I think is great for some people. But my feeling is that you don't solve the problem with the problem. So if you're thinking and behavior is the problem, then that's not necessarily the way that I would go about things. So for me. There has to be some level of debt to realize who you really are, not who you identify with, not your attachment to your status or your appearance or your your physical abilities in the world.

But actually, what's at your core? And it's my experience I'm not saying this for anybody else, but then when you build a relationship in words, then you do develop vulnerability. But just naturally, you do develop the capacity to have honest communication because you've done that with yourself. So, yeah, I hope I'm not ranting and rambling, but I'll close just by saying that I find this sort of talk of all the monkey mind behavior primitive. And thank you for sharing it with us.

I'm not saying what you shared is frustrating, but the actual that we're still stuck in these modalities that yeah, if if we start a bit closer to home, then this chance to move forward in life. Think I think you brilliantly summed up that really I think they start in this year. So I'm just going to I think there's some background. So Janosz started by talking about it wasn't really communication, but it's really well, it wasn't really communication, but it's really what's underneath and married on that is it's the ability to be vulnerable, which really is about.

And so everything we've talked about, which can seem negative and it can seem like we did, but really that's just what we're looking at, is the superficial of what works, of what works naturally if you do nothing. And so, yes, I think the key is mastery. And Janice also talked about that. You talked about like we expect everything to come from an app. And I think that's the fairy tale model. And the economic model which sells to us is that if you use this aftershave or you use this makeup, everyone's going to be off the links.

And the policy is like if you use this, all the women are going to it's like if you look at all the adverts, one of the primitive things that we respond to is sex is you're going to be attractive if you have this. And so this is what our economy runs on. And so that perpetuates. And what that all says is there's easy solutions when when really the only solution is, like you say, develop emotional mastery of understand yourself, be able to express yourself, because the whole thing of of shame and what shame does is it's like the emperor's new clothes that nobody said, you know, he was naked.

Everyone could see it because they were all afraid of shame and shame shuts down people from talking. And so for men, this is why men particularly tend not to communicate. And and I think someone sort of alluded to it. But I think there is a problem. If men opened up tomorrow and all men spoke, there'd be a problem with women, with communication, because equally you like women at the moment, can go with men. They won't talk.

Yeah, I might talk soon as men open up and start talking. Let's see how honest women want to be.

So definitive self acceptance. Oh, yes. Because when we when we feel ashamed, it's because we taking someone else's standards. Because we're taking this is what it means to be a man, I'm not a man, I'm ashamed. I'm not a real man. Don't let anyone say that. It's because we're judging ourselves by someone else. If we're someone that like Karl says and we figure out, OK, what's my life about? What what do I what do I choose to be judged by?

What is what is my standard of good? What's my standard that where do I look? Where's the line that I need to be above? And when we do that, we stop, we develop. Well, first of all, there's then a pressure of are we right? Or we think that. But does everyone else agree? But if we can get to that place, we're comfortable with that, then we don't feel that shame and then we're able to to be vulnerable.

Stephen? We were we were talking about problems and differences, and then we sort of jump through to solutions and solutions being it was down to individuals, to themselves. But I would like to propose the idea that the problems within relationships should and perhaps could be resolved within the relationship. So if we're talking about anger, which was what we were talking about, what I would suggest as a possibility is that as children, we learn how to push buttons in order to get what we want.

So we push emotional buttons to get what we want. And if we find that by making the other person angry, to the extent that they can't cope with the emotion that's overwhelming, then that gets us what we want. The other person shuts down and enables us to achieve an outcome that we're looking for. Whatever that might be, that may be the trigger is something that could be approached. If that was a problem within a relationship, from a personal point of view, I don't have a I don't have that experience of the relationship, I can resolve conflict in that way.

So I'm talking about intellectually, but I do get angry about things where I can't where somebody does something dangerous and you come you can't respond to at the time. So I do get that kind of retrospective anger, if you like, but I don't get angry, angry with people because I prefer to resolve conflict differences. But that's that's the thing I think be whether issues in relationships that can be resolved within relationships and maybe that needs help because obviously we don't have all the answers.

But we shouldn't necessarily be looking at lying or individual responsibility and saying, well, it's just down to one person solely because it could be that it's a mutual problem or a relationship problem, because that's what we're talking about. So that maybe the answer is within the relationship. Maybe it's a two way thing. One person is provoking an angry response and both to get what they want and maybe that be the situation. It was turned back to a. To a lesser conflict level would be better resolved without the anger.

That's my point. Yeah, I think I think that's a good point. And there is some research. I remember reading some research about domestic abuse. And one, sometimes they found that it was kind of under the radar. They were shameful comments. There was comments that were that led to shame, which led to then the violent intervention. I think when you're looking at a relationship, I think there's the you you partner and the relationship. And so I think I think you're right.

I think there are some relationship wounds that can only be healed in relationship. There's some relationship dynamics that can only be in relationship. But I think all all of these, they sort of interact. And so having awareness like the first real foundation of a relationship is knowing what you need from the relationship, just knowing that your life, like your life journey, transcends that relationship because that relationship is part of your life. And in order for that, you need to know what you like or you dislike what works, what's the context that works for you?

What's the context that doesn't want the people that you're you you thrive around and what other people that you struggle around and understand those triggers and then. Yeah, and so I think we need to know that and also the relationship dynamics. Yes, Sandra. So I think what we'll do if we have time is after we've gone from Sandra is maybe we'll look at in smaller groups of what are possible solutions or possible strategies for the Melonie. Sandra, sorry, going back to something that Karl said, this notion of self and.

Looking at yourself. I am not sure that that is as easy as it sounds in the sense that I know a few men who they cannot be by themselves, they cannot stay at home by themselves. They don't like their own company. So to think of them trying to understand why they do what they do and actually look at themselves. And one in particular, I know he would never, ever accept any responsibility for any of his behaviors. And some of the things that trigger his behavior are quite clear to those who know him very well.

But he does not acknowledge he does not he does not ever accept that these things influence him. And so if you are not capable of of looking at yourself and looking into yourself, understanding yourself, accepting the things that influence and have created you made you who you are at this point, then that master that you are speaking about will never be realized for that person, which means that in the relationship, which is why I mentioned therapy, because sometimes and also sometimes you are not well equipped to actually analyze some of these influences on your life and what they have triggered.

So sometimes you do need somebody with training or some kind of understanding to help to guide you and to give you the vocabulary to understand what it is. That's all I was thinking of in that respect. I don't think that, as Stephen quite rightly pointed out, many of the things are internal to the relationship and need both parties to resolve those things. But nonetheless, I think there is room for those who are equipped with the vocab. And the way of linking things to sometimes make us see what we can't see, isn't it the human woman's blood because the mother is making these guys in this way?

I think because sometimes I know my sister, she's horrible with her son because it's oh, he can do this because he's my little boy. He's 21 years old. So he's not a little boy anymore, but still is. He can do this and, you know, go you you're teaching your son how he can behave. So I think somewhere the mother who is making this and that a really good man in a relationship agreed afterwards.

I know I, I think so. So. So, yeah. I mean, I think yes. Because if we're living in the age of confusion. Then we don't know any better and we're all working out. And if you look and started to take your point is that I think we are in this time of confusion and so many relationships. I think most relationships are going to struggle. And so what were you looking at? There is you're looking at a Band-Aid.

You're looking at how do you just stop the bleeding and I think what we're looking at is any change starts with let you have the period of the pioneers, you have the early adopters. And I've had about 10. It takes about 10 percent of people to adopt something before it becomes a mainstream change. And so then so I think what we're looking at is it's only going to be 10 percent, but then that's going to permeate and that's going to change the culture.

So we're looking at. I remember saying I think there's life on Mars, which is like a police drama in the 70s and 80s. And we let that the way that they spoke. It was racist. They were smoking in the office. They was sexist. It was all these kind of things. And this was we grew up like I grew up in that time. And I remember that car. Remember when people used to just smoke in front of people, you know, like they used to be some of the British comedies.

They were I mean, they were racist. Like, you would never I think they've all been taken off now, but that was mainstream. That was acceptable then. And now people say, oh, God, like, I think my daughters are like, oh, you like you know, how were people allowed to be like that? And so if you look at 30 years and now. You know, like homophobia, sexism, racism and all of these things, have they most people won't say them now.

And so that's and it's not because everyone's changed is just because the leading percent change the culture.

You know, when you spoke of emotional mastery, how do we do that? When. Well, it isn't an easy path, and I think it's just really for me it's. You little you strip away. Okay, so first of all, we strip away all of the things you've been conditioned that, aren't you? And but like I'm kind of learning this, there's only so far you can go with intellect and it has to you have to develop the emotional capacity.

So how do you develop emotional capacities? It's understanding. So first of all, it's awareness of. Who are you how do you react, and I think for me, I know definitely and I suspect many men is that is hard. I don't know what information is, what you know, you just react. And so for me, it's you learn you have to learn what emotion feels like and then you have to get in touch with what you know.

How do you feel? How does that move? How does that change? And so then it's acceptance. And this is why I think there's so many, like the natural responses to this, to judge if if instead of judging, we understand and if we understand where it came from, we then have the ability to change something. Whereas if we don't know where it came from when we started judging good and bad, well, that's what shuts down communication, because that's what people are hiding from being bad.

So it's really about finding a way. And I think there is a wealth of different ways that people are changing their emotions in terms of mindfulness, in terms of meditation, in terms of breathing exercises. So all of these ways, and I think to some extent is individual, but it's really about awareness, acceptance and an evolution of. So first of all, accepting where you are, not blaming it, not judging it, but this is where I am.

And then it's evolution of where do I want to be what. So typically running on the economic model, it's been. So David Brooks, so David Brooks and favorite role I talked about this David Brooks have written a book called The Second Mountain. And this is where lots of men are. He's noticed are struggling because they're climbing the first mountain. They've got success. They've got family, but they're not happy. So all the measures in the world told them that they needed work hard to get good jobs and good money.

Have a family bring them up that's left them empty, and so the second mountain he's talking about is a sense, a sense of a search for sense of meaning spirituality. And so Father Richard Rule is talked about men and women having different. Different journeys, and he says a lot of women now talk about now have the same journey and he said men's journey is one of the sense of which is in the sense of climbing that mountain, of being something of doing something of.

And he talks about, like in a lot of spiritual and religious is, oh, look at look how devoutly I prayed. Look how well I attended every sermon. Look look at how spiritual I am, how I've done this. And this is still about a sense of achievement and where he says typically women have never needed that. Women have been like he said, men are seen in the settlements. And again, you've got to be more devout, more accepting of this.

And he said the men who they like once this over and the women are like, yeah, I've got to give more. I've got to do more for the family. I've got to think less of myself. But he said they already kind of understood that. He talks about some of the symbology of religion, of how the women are represented by surrender and so that kind of thing, whereas men are like all the status, they're the people who need to be some.

So but women are told to be quiet, to keep quiet, to submit those are the words that are used to describe how women should behave. We should submit to the man. We should be quiet. We should be seen, not heard. We should be modest in our dress, whatever that means, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, and, yeah, I, I think there's so much okay, so I think I've spoken a lot and there are a few of us here and everyone's getting the chance to talk.

So I think what we do is have one quick breakout room for what do you see? As the solutions or the way forward, like for a man in this day and age, what would be the solutions that you see without any blame, without any judgment, but what would be productive and effective? Four men in relationships. But just say one thing really quickly, that's Betty Rob gave you a really good answer, but I would say quite simply, just to be still and quiet and alone and see what comes up and go with that.

Yeah, that yeah. That's that's a good. There is that the world is all about. Busy, busy, busy, busy. And it's, it's really that stillness is really stopping the world and shaping everything based on you. Okay.

So if I may say I would agree with Carl because we are human beings. So as we develop self-awareness and they become like men and sort of like consciousness and still far from just being men and woman conditioned by hormones and physiological buzzwords that might be sufficient to make. OK, thank you. So I'm just going to open up the breakout rooms, um, my solution to people is to be super blunt with them, to make them aware of the. Themselves, they may not be aware that they are blind.

Themselves get out, but always face tremendous resistance. People hate me for that, for being super blunt and direct. OK, so you say yes, I mean, I agree with honesty, but not everyone responds quietly to the penthouse site, isn't it? Because that's how I wish to be treated. Others that are very rarely people treat me that way.

Is anyone ever critical of the. Yes, there was one and that was under that person helped me the most. How did you feel when they. When they were critical, I was humbled. And then I stop started to my humility journey, so to speak. It's still ongoing, but it's been going on for years now.

OK, that's a very that's a very mature and was a very mature and long response. But not everyone would respond in that way. Unfortunately, people don't treat me the way I wish to be treated, which is to be super blunt with me because I have many, many one spots and I know what I know is only accounts for maybe zero point zero zero zero zero one percent of reality. I need people to tell me. But they don't. Well, the other day last week, veteran told me I got to ferret out syndrome, that was helpful, that was direct.

So I wanted to tell you that the abuse here is. The blonde hair. Yes, and I appreciate that kind of bluntness. I think I think we definitely need honesty and but it takes bravery. And I think that he was really brave, braver than I would have been and. It's also about not everyone is able to cope with with honesty, but, yeah, it's definitely, definitely important. And I think this is also about making it safe, to be honest, and making it so.

What what are the ways when I started this research sort, not with framing it as. Understanding rather than judging, because if people understand and they've been that we're looking for a solution and looking for the causes are not typically societally we blame to judge people good and bad. And that's what people fear and react to. But, yeah, I definitely agree. Honesty, anything else? When we were talking just there, I, I, I think that is perhaps rather than blunt maybe.

But certainly it is this group that is expressing how you feel and what you want and. In an honest way, so I think the British thing or perhaps the typically used to be nice. So you don't tell somebody bluntly because that's not nice, but being assertive is about being able to express how you feel. And I think that that's that's something that's very difficult to do. It's quite a skill. And I don't think guys are perhaps too fat or even expected.

But in terms of the that we had things. But then this is a way of solution long term, perhaps, to be parental education, trying to bring up children. And perhaps that could be based on psychology of gender and role models. So we have a current system which has led us to where we are, which is based on history we mentioned. So we bring up our children based on our talk to us, and that's all we have.

We don't have anything else. And that seems to me that we go to school to buy academic things that benefit whatsoever. But we don't learn about life skills and maybe that's a life skill that we could all benefit from. Maybe children ought to be able to learn how to interact and maybe do some meditation and mindfulness. And another good idea that came up with the idea of being able to have a relationship. Kind of it was talked about as far as leveling so that, you know, whether you were a beginner or.

Or somewhere in between, so you knew where you were. So there was some sort of relationship skills monitoring or even schooling. So as you got into a relationship that you could check in with mentors or some sort of system which would enable you to keep it on a good path rather than allowing it to kind of spiral into a destructive one. That's not something that I think the only thing I can think where you can get that, because usually you only get support in relationships.

Are they keeping them straight? Is this true? Because when they fail and then you can go through to life and then you can go and get relationship advice at that stage, but surely it makes more sense to avoid that stage. And the time is it's not true. You can get maybe spiritual support so you can check in because people like priests and things like that can give a kind of moral guidance, if you like, towards a relationship. So you could go and say, well, I think this thing, whereas in that way they can give me some sort of independence.

And I think maybe that's something that. The people that can, I think, especially thinking, man, where we don't have that. We don't have that network, so women will have that network where they find out their friends and they tell their friends. This guy did this man awful and their friends go, yeah, yeah, are awful. But maybe that's not the best advice. But that's the network they have. At least they have something for men that certainly have anything to do.

So it should be it's just an idea, really. It is a solution. Maybe there won't be some way that you can checking maybe some online, but maybe you could just do a kind of fill that form and go, hey, you know what? Each of you could fill out some questionnaire and that might be done really well. You might say, hey, you need to learn some communication skills and try and improve or get some help from somebody that can actually do that.

But that was what we were we were thinking, OK, so how can parents bring up children and supporting relationships and monitoring?

They say the women are more luckier because we have a network and we have a friendship where we can see and talk about everything. Why you do not have stuff that you know is that you cannot have a male friend who can express their feelings or something. It is just how do you like gossiping? And the man likes listening as well. So I don't understand what is the problem, which is typically men typically struggle when I've had men's groups. What I really look for is relationship advice, it's just the friends, it's just men have typically you have friends like my friends, they go down the pub, they might have friends, they play football with my friends.

They cycle with or run with. But they don't have friends that do everything. They just they do stuff with. And it's interesting what you said, Stephen, because I'm not in a relationship kind of relationships program with that kind of a place for couples to work, like associate with other couples and then interact and have that kind of tracking and. I don't think women are less thrilled here because most women don't tell the truth anyways when they communicate. For example, in the case I talked about years ago, a friend who tells some truths about me that I didn't know I had to provoke and provoked her in the end to she she told me something about myself and I lost the friend because she she she only told me out of anger.

I can tell you with the age, maybe we're kind of better friends because I know my friends, if I do something stupid, they give. So it's like just. How you're choosing your friends in. When you are more mature, it's getting better and you will get some honest response from your friends. I don't know about the inside still, so I was waiting for that, but when I think when you agree that friends are not honest, I tell them I really don't agree at all.

My best friend that I have known since I was 18. We talk about that. We talk about most everything and we are honest. And can I just ask that you just right from 18 to now, how has the friendship evolved? Because I like to say there is a bit of like when you go to school kids, there's so much jealousy and bingo stuff and then. Yeah. So can you talk you speak about a little bit about that place.

OK, well, we met first week in a university at the University Freshers Week. You know, when you're getting attracted by the seniors and all the rest of it and as luck would have it, there was a strike. So we had three weeks of doing nothing, waiting for them to start classes. And so we had ragging every morning. And then there was this ceremony at the end to give, you know, the most outspoken freshet and all the rest of it and what have you.

And we developed a friendship because we were in the two rooms together and we were deemed to be the two desirable friendships that the seniors are going to try to get a date with, OK? And so when they would come to me, I would tell her and then they come to her. We I would she would tell me so we could warn each other, all of these men who didn't mean anyone any good. And so we were each other's ally against the seniors.

And we used and we just developed a friendship of trust. And it and it continued throughout, I mean, you were talking her boyfriend and the two of us, we would be going everywhere, we'd go parties, we would sleep in the same bed. He's in the middle between the two of us. Nothing there. Nothing is happening. And that's the kind of trust. And now it's we are like sisters. We are we are like sisters.

She has a sister and I am closer to her than her blood sister. Her mother calls me her daughter. That's how close we are. And actually, if I have a serious problem where I have to bare my soul, I can tell her and she tells me, as a matter of fact, last week we had a conversation and she says, well, Betty's gone because I'm known as Betty to everybody else except this audience. And she said to me, Betty, I don't know what I would do without you.

And I said the same to her. I said, I can't see my life without you. That's how we are, and so I think even if you've got somebody in your life that's like that, that's I don't think you get very many of them. But when you have them, you can show them your warts because they you trust that they won't take it and hurt you and they will help you to resolve an issue if you have it. She's the same one that I told you I went through when her husband was dying.

The three of us went, Yeah, so we have been through everything. Together. Yeah, that's so strange, quite often the friends are saying, like, oh, yeah, you look so. Two of you together so violent that suddenly one day did backing up what you should defensing. I told you, she's not good. She's not good. So those people can really see they just only see what you want to hear. No, no, no.

We get angry at each other. Don't worry. When we don't agree on something and it's not it's not all hunky dory and or. I love you. I love you. I love you. No, you're not doing the right thing. Listen to me. You know, that kind of stuff. And we go through those those things and we have those discussions and you say, OK, you're going to do it. And once you say that, you are going to do it.

If I say I'm going to do it, I don't care what you think she will say. And I will say to her to I don't agree with you, but I support you. I understand why you are doing it. And I, I change moods, we change moods. But we have said our peace. We see I mean, she like this fellow. And I said, no, man, you can't do that typically, you know.

And you can't do that. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not for you. No way. No I do not add up. But that he is so and so and he said all of that is just not good enough. And then eventually it's like, OK, fine, if you really want to go ahead with BIID, ok, I'll be on their best behavior for you and vice versa.

And if it doesn't work out and there or she's there and be ball on each other and we go with each other, but that's the direction and see it still existing, but it's really hard to beat.

I love her and I love her without any any boundaries, I tell you, because I know that if I have a problem, I can call her. And I said, this is it, and it's it's. It is nothing I can describe it to her without feeling embarrassed and ashamed or, you know, or any of those things. And I know she's not going to go out into the town square and tell my business to everybody. Or the other way around, because I'm a very private person.

And so you see and I respect our bond is. And I think that is what we are trying to get in a relationship, actually, if cygwin from my friendship with me, with my best friend, in a sense that what we are looking for in a relationship of trust.

And not that kind of judgment that makes you feel small or less than. And and no fear that you are going to be taken to outside interests and denigrated. And I think that's a serious matter wherein some people do not keep things inside of the relationship and see if feel very vulnerable because you feel exposed to the community at large or whoever external to the and you have no recourse if it's something that's it's your fault or you are the party who needs to resolve this particular issue, you feel as though you are on trial.

Because the outside environment has been brought in by a partner. So the solutions lies then? I mean, one thing, I suppose there was a TV series about it, wasn't it, that they could find the perfect algorithm for you, that somehow higher intelligence, so to speak, or an advanced intelligence could help us? So we've gone from perhaps a level of chaos to order. Hundred years or so ago, what looked like order to now chaos with higher divorce rates.

So maybe it's going to be the computers that bring us back together. Or now they're also making sex dolls, aren't they? Like human. Yeah. Type things. That doesn't sound very good to me.

I don't know. But I agree with that. I love men who take the dolls to the hotels for the weekends and dress them up. Those are all right, Rob, you don't know about that.

Yeah, I can imagine they have retreated from physics, from real relationships, because real women give too much trouble, buy a doll and you buy outfits because we answer back and it is the most emotional problem. So they have the dolls and they take them to the hotel silicon's and they dress them and they take them out and they. Whatever, then they have their weekends and then they go back home with their dogs and they go shopping and they buy outfits and they dress them the way they want them to be dressed because, hey, who is going to tell me how to dress that work?

But the doll, you can dress her exactly how you want and you put her there and she stays there and so and don't speak and do anything. I think to be to be honest, it's the same dynamic why people get pets all the time because. Not not all the time, obviously, but a lot of the time people put their love into children or into cats and dogs because you can almost guarantee unconditional love for them. And what it really is, is to retreat from these cats work.

I'm asking because they are not the unconditional love. The cats are more like a woman. The cats are more like when the dogs are not.

Well, that's simply another human, isn't it? And I think what we do under stress is we like fight, flight freeze or fight ferociously and. Yes, I think what we're seeing in lots of different ways is people flying from relationships because they can't cope with the honesty, because they can't cope with its demands of them. So I do think it's I think we are on the leading edge because most people are still on having conversations like this place. People still aren't thinking about this.

And so for every every one. Every person more who joins in this debate and consideration makes it easy for the next person. And as we impact the people we're in relationships with, that then has gives people a different experience. So so I think I think this is just generally an age of confusion. And as we work out, there's going to be a few people that work out and then that's going to spread to. Make relationships, you know, eventually catch on in the media like meditation and mindfulness.

Now, of course, think companies are there and it's quite acceptable where it is quite a weird thing to do. Spiritual development is becoming easier. I think people are used to looking for advice. People still quite often feel they shouldn't need relationship advice. They feel that it should just come naturally. But there are those people who are on the leading edge and they're going to be the role models for the next generation. But as Stephen said, going back to our education, going back to our youth, when you very young, the very things that you're talking about should be brought into the curriculum somehow so that people can look at how to develop the best.

You not about relationships, but about you, the person, and that I should some which you build. And they should if our schools were really about making sure they wouldn't, they wouldn't work on right when we have Google, why are we memorizing? Why are we still doing the same things? From one hundred and fifty years ago, the curriculums hardly changed. So what we're looking at there is political and if you're looking for a political solution is not going to happen because the school is not about you being at your best, because politically a country doesn't care about you individually.

It'll only reach the point when the levels of suicide and depression become prohibitively cost. Cost cost becomes cost effective to help people do better. But until then, Boris and whoever's in he's going to do what gets the votes and that doesn't in the mainstream. Carl.

Yeah, I mean, I really don't have any solutions. I did say earlier about having some kind of standard where people interact with each other based on dating experience. So it might be easier or well, depending on what level you are at, perhaps, but that's perhaps a bit too simple. The only model I know that's in place apparently is in Denmark and in Denmark. They have a sort of, I suppose in some ways sophisticated system, insomuch as people go to a ball, they ask three to five questions and then they go and have sex.

Obviously, that they don't have sex. And there's no mention of relationships or anything like that. Afterwards, they go for coffee. And if they want to stay together, they do. And if they don't, they separate ways. Now, obviously, they may not have as many STDs as we do in the United Kingdom, but which would be quite dangerous to do something like that. But in a way, it kind of circumnavigates that whole dance, doesn't it?

Gets to the core of vulnerability. And then, you know, if you connect to somebody I'm not saying five questions.

I'm really happy. Where are the answers? Can I see your covid certificate? New. Yes.

I said this to, you know, to say, no, it's true.

But if someone doesn't take a shower in a week, look at it. No, I think that's how you start a relationship.

But first question and the sex first thing, it just came down to that vulnerability and straight away and see if there's a connection. There's got to be a question after was I any good after something afterwards? There's nothing.

Is there like a trust phone for review is just the way forward. And I know I can I can believe that because Scandinavian countries are so much more advanced in in their schools, in their in their emotional development. And I think they've had a different.

You have like the Vikings and now they have a different story and they've had a different cultural experience, and so they're yeah, that's maybe where we where we end up with the like five question by wonder which gender it was the club.

Does it mean that we have gone back to the club in over the head and grabbed by the hair and all that? We are going full circle back back to? I don't necessarily think so because I think it's more a model of equality. It's it's where women can be more open without play. The whole game of the Virginia. I'm sorry to call you. Oh, it's cool, I'm going to get thank you. Oh, OK. Yes, but that's interesting, but, yeah, it's going to be interesting.

I mean, it's a bit like George Orwell 1984 and nothing turned out like that because we're not very good at predicting what's going to happen. But I think it's going to be Russia is still on.

Russia is more about worth fighting. Because and I do remember Hungary was a place in the 80s, so and the 50s from the 50s, the 80s. So but what's interesting is that model. Broke down. It didn't work. And I know it's it is there that I can say, OK. I'm just gonna read this, so before we close up with this. Yes, yes. And we expect that there is some research that you guys in someone else's eyes for 40 seconds could enhance you fall in love because that's vulnerability.

There's also the first six questions to fall in love, two, which are a series of questions that are increasingly vulnerable. So it's basically about. It's it's structured questions that make you more open you up to more vulnerability, so it's not necessarily like a magic solution, but. It provokes. Vulnerability and calm. OK, so is it was actually through a kind of a guy who was into awareness, I'm not bisexual or gay, but he used to he used to travel around the world.

And it's funny because he lost his popularity and status because he had a wife and then slept with two twins. So I think it does where people can fall in love with you. Also, I did this for a work thing, oddly enough, and then they tried it with somebody else and they fell in love with that person. And so it does work. But I'm rambling now and I'm not getting my point across. The point is, is that you do become vulnerable.

You do open up by will warn you that it's not actually love the person. It's just that you're opening up inside to love. And actually it's really not the person it's dealt with. No. Love with love, the possibility of love, you feel love. Yeah, great love. Yeah, I think it's I think it's also when you look at where most relationships are formed from, it's usually been proximity. It's been in the past the US college students who ever was lived close to you because that proximity gives you the interactions that can lead to opening up.

So and then so then the other thing on that is like the whole tonsure model with the tonsure model is that you you fall in love with one person and that person connects you to a state of love, which you then expand to everything. I wasn't sure if you're going to see it this very quickly, something I had forgotten say is that may be a lot of what we've done tonight is, is negativity focused, looking at problems and challenges, and that perhaps something that we lacked for something useful is positive role models.

I think that a lot of things in TV is very negative because relationship has displayed are dramatic and they lead to conflict. We lack the positive role models and also. We get role models in terms of romantic comedies, and there's the philosopher Alan told you, I stumbled across at some point and he's very good at analyzing our culture, Western culture and critiquing it. And he very much critiqued the romantic role model because it leads to unrealistic expectations. It was sort of set up by Victorian aristocracy that didn't actually have relationships.

They they just kind of relationship. They died quickly or something along those lines. And it's quite interesting. He's got some things on YouTube. So it might be something that's worth looking at. But I think relationships are different because people are individuals to that point conveying to individuals. But there might be a benefit in sort of defining what? Maybe gold standard relationships look like, which I think is perhaps we the other way of looking at the common cold, but that seemed to be quite interesting.

So. Yeah, good point. She was like. And I think when you look at cultural representations, like in stories and films and things, it has to be like and it has to be dramatic or it's not interesting and happy, people tend not to be interesting. And so they don't get as much cultural attention. Yes. So the government's so that was the communist model. And they talk about the masters and disasters of relationships. And I think each relationship is individual.

As it has to be created for the individuals that are in it. But yes, I think we do need a more positive role models to be able to. To have enough to show the universal characteristics as opposed to just like the couple three doors down who seem to have a good relationship. And what tends to be anecdotal at the moment? But it's difficult for us in that the very thing that we desire is the thing that entertainment and all the other outlets find boring, but is what we crave.

Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, when you look at social media, it is the most outrageous stuff in sport ever, polarizes people. That gets attention. And media is much the same amount of post traumatic elements of the formula. So we just use Michelle and Barack Obama. They are really good, positive, positive role models of the. Oh, Michelle Obama, yeah, OK, they are they are they look like a perfect couple because they are supporting each other and they they have just it seems like, you know, outside they have a really good relationship.

I think that is a positive role model.

I think one I feel sorry, sorry, sorry. Go ahead. No, she's affected by very well aware and well developed and emotionally mature as individuals.

So I think what I take from them is that they are two discrete individuals in the first instance. And as a result of that, they are sure of themselves in in terms of who they are and what they are looking for in their relationship. I think. And as a result of that, when they come together, it works.

Whereas if you have one very strong person and the other one who is not as strong, then maybe it wouldn't work as well. But he respects her and she respects him. It's Claire. OK, so that was mentioning or mentioning and. Next week, even in, the journalists are going to sit in judgment of all the female failings, we do not have any, darling.

Perfect. So next week I would be interested in a man I understand a little bit more about the man's experience. So I only have perception of females. So I would be interested in any women who want to share their views and opinions in like background for. Where we go with next week, so if you have any thoughts, you can email me or a message of what you see as the challenges. OK, you will get some. Thank you.

Phone from the woman's perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, because all I have I can only have a perspective like for example, we went women's perspective, men's experience. I've got experience and I think the female side.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I can talk to women and but as much as I can understand how they can never experience it. So here I we're going to have to look at it differently.

Is she like she maybe will yeah, maybe we'll look at our message, you know, maybe you need to you need to share this this request in the group because, OK, Sandra can write something.

I can write something to Betty. Betty would be great. So and so others maybe can provide some information, but at the end of the day to think about how to structure it. So it's more your experiences than my perceptions. Oh, dear. Cause we're used to it and Stephen, the journalists are going to sit in judgment and that's the basis of what you do, is you don't know how glad I am to have you, because before this, I think I was just the model.

And you think I was saying I am mad as well.

Oh, well, it's good, but I think I think it is madwoman woman from the Caribbean this year.

But maybe I do have some blood in my body, but it's all fun.

Yeah, it is. Thank you, Rob. You know, I think you are doing a very good job. Thank you, everyone, for for sharing an. Being vulnerable the next week is memorability knows you're up for it, what's going to be a vulnerability, not yours?

What is it that you're going to say about this, that you want us to modify change, to be not do is going to say one face just to be yourself?

I don't like humans who just want to impress me.

Just to get me you know what I mean, be yourself, get it in the beginning of the book, you know, because after all, how you can improve, don't be in the beginning to be like, oh, I'm the best one. I like Instagram shedding care bodies. And after going to my bedroom, can you switch off the lights? Do you know the joke about the woman who the man he thought he picked her up and when they went home and she started to strip off and of course, the eyelashes came off and then the wig came off and the false teeth and the fox goes came up.

So what is what I'm saying?

Be yourself. Don't need to be breasts, you know, like Egyptian and everything. I see woman woman's what the that leaps and all that kind of stuff really.

You do that like the duck lips. Yeah. Twice or three times using an order. And I'm like really just to be yourself.

You mean you don't like the Botox. Look where the face is frozen.

And this is my five old girl. Yeah. Is that five years.

That is just a few months and after the holiday to stay with me. Not even close to that. That's but we know what it must not have on it next next week then.

So I don't go for Botox.

No, listen, don't you see the grey hairs. I love my salt and pepper hair. I am a rebel without a cause.

This is the reason why I am blonde.

Now, I agree that you either like me the way I am or later for you.

Exactly. They have to be and we have to be a swell. That's actually what it's open up to the person. Not when you try your best and you know all the time you try to, you know or I want you. I want you. You don't know who I am fighting and just want everybody as humans. I had a woman was get so drunk and she was vomiting that she was so embarrassed. I was like, no, we are humans happens.

Yeah. Why she drank so much.

So that was good. But, you know, it's Janosz. We can have a drink. Mike, visalo, do you know about it anyway?

I'll see you next week. If I'm back from Sweden looking at the five questions, I'm going to them now.

Right.