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The Power Of Possibility For DEI Communicators With Rev D.
Episode 9 • 1st August 2023 • Communicate Like You Give A Damn • Kim Clark
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Organizer, Facilitator, Speaker and professional mentor to Kim Clark, Deborah L. Johnson, also known as "Rev D," is back again for another powerful episode of the Communicate Like You Give a Damn podcast. Not only does Rev D expound on her extensive experience with landmark cases in California supporting the DEI agenda, she also discusses the importance of what makes a good communicator in order for companies to see all that's possible when placing DEI at the forefront of their priorities. She also carefully proposes communicators to self-reflect and understand for themselves what their DEI journey is when attempting to depolarize and truly step into a company's vision.  

About The Guest:

Rev Deborah L Johnson (Rev D) is a dynamic organizer, strategist, facilitator, public speaker, and spoken word artist, known for her ability to bring clarity to complex and emotionally charged issues. As an organizational consultant specializing in cultural diversity, she serves the public, private, non-profit, and military sectors. She is a successful co-litigant in two landmark California civil rights cases, including one setting precedent for the inclusion of sexual orientation in California’s Civil Rights Bill. For her social justice work, she has received numerous lifetime achievement awards.

Author of The Sacred Yes and Your Deepest Intent, Rev Deborah holds a BA from USC in Economics, an MBA from UCLA in Urban Land Economics/Real Estate Finance, a ministerial degree from the Holmes Institute, and an Honorary Doctor of Divinity from Agape University of Leadership and Transpersonal Studies. Her passion is building “The Beloved Community” and healing socio-political/cultural divides. Wherever she goes, including on the 3 shows of her RevDnow podcast channel, Rev Deborah’s message is one of transformation, inclusion, empowerment, and possibility.

A founding member of the Agape International Spiritual Center, Rev Deborah serves with Rev Michael Bernard Beckwith on the Leadership Council of the Association for Global New Thought.

Find Rev D Here:

Dinner Time Convo

Website

Instagram

Facebook

About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

Communicate Like You Give A Damn Podcast

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Transcripts

Kim Clark:

Rev D, thank you so much for returning to

Kim Clark:

communicate like you give a damn. The podcast that is trying

Kim Clark:

to get communicators and all those who do content and

Kim Clark:

communications in an interpersonal setting to

Kim Clark:

understand our role and responsibility in diversity,

Kim Clark:

equity and inclusion and and really applying it to our daily

Kim Clark:

work. And you and I did a podcast already. And something

Kim Clark:

you said to me, after we recorded made it really clear

Kim Clark:

that there you're going to be a reoccurring, like CNN

Kim Clark:

correspondent, as part of our podcast.

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So thank you for coming back. And not everyone's going

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to listen to the episodes, obviously, in order. So I would

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love for you to introduce yourself, and then we'll get

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into this new round of content I think people are gonna really

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get a lot from so Reverend Deborah Johnson, also known as

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Rev. D now, and also affectionately known as Rev. D.

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Please introduce yourself. Rev.

Rev. Deborah Johnson:

Well, thank you, Kim. It's a pleasure

Rev. Deborah Johnson:

to be back. I appreciate the work that you're doing in the

Rev. Deborah Johnson:

field as well.

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Yes, I have been in the field of diversity for over four

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decades, professionally. And my passion is really about killing

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divides. I've been all kinds of clients from corporate, from

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the fortune 500 corporate clients, to nonprofit

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organizations, public sector, military. And I find that

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although the environments are different, there are certain

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fundamentals that are going to be true everywhere. And I've

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been in the trenches with two landmark court cases in the

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state of California.

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Oh, please, you can't leave us hang in there.

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Tell us more.

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Well, the first is a case that was won in 1984. That set

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precedent for the inclusion of sexual orientation in the

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California Civil Rights Bill. It was actually the first to happen

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anywhere in the nation, which set the precedent to be able to

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have things such as marriage equality. And then later in

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2005, I was also a successful co defendant, this time, in a case

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against the governor, our former governor in California, Gray

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Davis, who signed into law on the way out of his recall, the

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domestic partnerships bill, and there was a challenge to that.

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And I was able to be part of the successful keeping it in place,

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which once again, helped to set the precedent for marriage

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equality. So what I'm hearing is that for Black History Month, or

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pride month, people should be telling your story, you should

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be a part of the did you know, and you know about LGBTQ plus

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history and the intersectionality as well of

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your identities, you have a variety of identities that

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really inform your work. And you just gave us just a little tiny

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sample size of that shows up in actual manifestation of not only

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advancing visibility, but like you said, logbooks, precedents,

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that has led to just the right to be out. In general. Yes, sir.

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Some companies actually would do that, particularly when I worked

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with various affinity groups within the same organization.

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Apple, for example, was big with that, were Appalam, the, the

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LGBTQ group and the women's group and their black affinity

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group would all pull their resources, you know, together

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and and bring me in.

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And now companies are investing. With bigger budgets. However, D

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AI is still nowhere close to where it needs to be. Because

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we've seen this recently as we record this in April of 2023,

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mass layoffs, especially within the DEI field. So if companies

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had truly put dei into place and embedded it across the

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organizations, especially since the Great White awakening, from

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the summer of 2020.

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The embedding the practice actually has not truly been

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embraced as of yet because we would not have seen the layoffs

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at the scale that we have most recently. Now I want to get into

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language, specifically because that's definitely what we talk

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about here on this podcast, but there's something that you left

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me feeling and thinking

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bout after, when we were done recording the first episode that

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I've got to dive into here. You said, di doesn't have five

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years.

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And I went, just hold that thought, I'm going to schedule

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you for more time because I, we've got to share what you're

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thinking about. When you say that statement when you say D

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doesn't have five years. Tell us more. What are you talking about

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there? What do you mean?

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What I mean is that d AI happens within a broader cultural

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context.

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And the very legitimacy of the EI and what it stands for, is,

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in fact, under attack,

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the work of dei really follows and mirrors the work that we do

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in the broader society, around democracy and inclusion.

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We don't have another five years to sit around in the United

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States in particular, and just see what happens in terms of

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democracy.

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There is an eroding that's taking place at the very

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infrastructures. And part of the danger here in us talking about

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language, is that there is such a big move out right now, to do

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misinformation, disinformation, to rewrite history, to not allow

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the facts and the truth to come out whether it's in the banning

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of the books or what it is that we're allowed to say, in in

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schools, the wanting to erase race, as an issue that can even

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be discussed, let alone defined or measured.

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I could go on and on. But the culmination of these factors, is

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leading to such a situation where the legitimacy of doing

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this kind of work is very fragile right now.

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And what do we have to do to and who do we need to be? I know

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that's a big part of your work, is who do we need to be? And

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what do we need to do to manage through this fragility, and come

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through to help people see that this work benefits them to the

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ones who may be hesitant about it or trying to steer focus and

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investment away from embedding dei in organizations?

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Well,

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I think that there's a step that has to happen before that.

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And the step that I think that has to happen before that is

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that there needs to be

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a real, honest, honest conversation within the d i

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communities itself.

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I keep saying that there are these parallels, because there

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are, the DEI doesn't just spring out of nowhere. It is a reaction

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and a response to what's happening in the broader

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society. Our corporations or companies are a microcosm of the

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whole. And what we're attempting to do in our businesses, is to

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do things a little bit differently than how they're

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being done in the broader society so that we can be more

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inclusive so that we can be competitive, so that we can, in

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fact, have work environments where everybody can flourish.

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There is a way in which we want to tell our stories, merely

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within the context of the corporate environment

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without locating ourselves within the context of a broader

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societal environment.

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And taking a look at what's going on in that broader

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societal environment.

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How are those issues playing out in our corporate environments?

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And what's our contribution to it? Not just what is our

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contribution to

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making things better. But how Wait, how may we inadvertently

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been doing things that are at cross purposes? When we talk

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about language, this is no different than political

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polling. Where, if you're trying to sell a message, you have to

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stop for a moment and ask, what message? Are people hearing from

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you? Not just, what do you think you're saying? What is it that

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they are hearing?

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And? And are we picking the issues that really matter to

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them? You know, are we languaging it in the ways that

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they can understand and perhaps buy in and, and support us?

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And I'm saying this very firmly, because I find in the DEI field,

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we're operating almost like, we're right.

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We're right, we have the right message, we know what we're

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doing. There's just something wrong with all of them that they

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don't get it.

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And what do I need to do to help them see the light and see

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through my eyes.

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But a good communicator

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is going to learn how to see through the eyes of the ones

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that they're talking to.

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They're going to be taking that into consideration, and looking

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to see where is there the common ground? Where might we have

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divergent opinions,

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but paying particular attention to ways in which we may be at

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cross purposes with ourselves? And just as in the social

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political environment, those cracks, those weaknesses get

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exploited?

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So for those who have the agenda of eradicating,

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undermining, or at least

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neutralizing

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the work of Dei, because it serves their larger social

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political agendas. Okay.

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The pushback is not just about the company, pushback is a

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reflection of what's happening in the broader society. Just

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like the advocacy isn't just about the company, the advocacy

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is about what's happening in the broader society.

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And if we don't kind of wake up and smell the coffee,

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and locate ourselves within this larger context,

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I'm really concerned that we're going to look up in a few years

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and find that the fundings Not there.

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Not only is the funding not going to be there, but the

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environment would have flipped so that we won't even be allowed

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to have the conversations anymore.

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And that's all because D I didn't work.

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So they didn't feel the need to continue with the investment.

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Not because it didn't work necessarily.

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You know, that's like saying

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the voter registration laws or the voting stuff didn't work.

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No, it worked. It worked well.

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We did not have a stolen election. In fact, the last

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presidential election was the safest that we've ever had.

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But just because you're doing well, doesn't mean you're going

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to be supported.

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Just because you're doing well doesn't mean you're going to be

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liked.

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If you're doing well flies in the face of a broader agenda

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that actually doesn't want you to be successful.

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And I feel like we're not

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coming to grips with that.

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That there's this assumption that any kind of pushback is

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just out of ignorance,

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as opposed to strict

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eject dismantling

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How can communicators step up?

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In this space? I look at the experiment that I did with Chad

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GPT, where I just basically typed in, right a company

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diversity statement, and in less than 30 seconds, it spit out a

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diverse commitment statement, a diversity statement that I could

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apply to any company, because Chachi Beatty just pulls from

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what's out there. So what's out there is what I see in the

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results in that search. It says Insert company name in the chat

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GBT

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version in less than 30 seconds.

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putting together something that I see a lot of companies have

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spent, you know, many rewrites and many months in order to get

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approved. And it's not meaningful in any way, shape or

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form. There's not a and we touched on this. And the first

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time that we talked where there isn't a compelling vision, there

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isn't a story of, of Dei, that's been very well articulated. So

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many of us are kind of rudderless. And why we are doing

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d i and it's the communicators that can really tell that story

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in a compelling way. And in a specific way, that shift from

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vague to specificity is something I work with, with

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clients all the time because they don't see it. So many

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communicators, the vast majority, I can't remember the

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statistics lately, I know I've seen them as high as 83% of the

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roles of communications within organizations are taken by

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people who look like me. And we don't necessarily understand

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what the eye is, we don't actually know what that work is.

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There's there's a great education, ramp and learning

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curve for us to actually know what that work is, in order for

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us to go, Oh, now I get it, or at least I get it better than I

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did yesterday, and two weeks before that, and three years

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ago. So now the way I'm showing up in how I'm telling the story

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and wanting to revamp and seeing that the commitment statement is

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too vague. It's a list of activities. It's like camp, if

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you if you read, if you read like a diversity report by most

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companies, it's a list of activities that we want merit

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badges for, rather than meaningful impact, to shift the

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organization in a meaningful way where it benefits everybody. So

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this storytelling, the language that we use the picture that we

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can create the visit that compelling vision, but also

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reporting on what we do what a communicators need to shift, and

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truly understand in our power of that language and storytelling

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in order to step up in this work, and not end up.

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Like you have warned us that we can because of this strategic

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dismantling that's going on in the larger societal realm

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there's a saying there's a reason why God gave us two ears

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and only one mouth.

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Because we're supposed to listen

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twice as much as we speak.

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The

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the

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word I'm looking for.

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The encouragement that I'm saying here

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is not so much that we haven't been saying enough in the eye.

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We haven't been listening

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enough in Dei.

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We have to be listening

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is the point that I'm making,

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that

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there's a tendency to want to write off

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those who are not in agreement or those who are not in

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alignment,

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to marginalize them in the same way that dei people are there to

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stop other people from being marginalized. So we're just kind

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of playing tic for tat, in whose turn it is to be marginalize is

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what I'm saying

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and

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The D I work is not going to be successful unless you are in

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partnership,

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like real partnership.

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Otherwise, it's not going to work.

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And

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the uplifting of the marginalized populations

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should be a means to an ends, and not an end in and of itself.

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And I think too often we have positioned dei as though that is

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the end, like uplift these people

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give them some opportunity, the end, like we've, we've, we've

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done our work.

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But the uplifting

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is for the purpose of us all being together, and all being

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included, which involves every one.

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And I'm not so sure that the vision of all D I really

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includes every one,

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we have gotten to the point, unfortunately, where the word

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diversity, as a communicator quite often becomes a code word

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for non white.

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Or, you know, anything other than white male, or anything

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other than straight white male.

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So this pushback, particularly when you are in an environment,

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where

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white, straight men are not perceiving themselves as

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advantage,

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not perceiving themselves as privileged. Whether it's true or

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not. But I'm saying is that the self perception is not that. And

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there's no real conversations going on anywhere

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about that.

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So we're doing this.

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We're doing this, I believe, in our last conversation, I gave

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the analogy of a family that is expanding.

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And if you have

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a new baby that comes into the family, of course, the new baby

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is going to get a lot of attention. But the 12 year old,

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the 13 year old is going to be wondering, well, what about me.

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And then when they get 16 and 17, it's not that they don't

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love their five year old brother or sister or or care about them.

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But in their minds, they're feeling as though somehow or

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another, the parents attention has gotten siphoned off, and

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that the younger brother or sister is favored.

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So a lot of what I see labeled sometimes as racism.

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I'm not saying that there isn't some of that in there.

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But it could equally be described as sibling rivalry.

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It's sibling rivalry,

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kind of this, who's favored?

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Who's valued?

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And has that been our message

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in fact that

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everybody's valued.

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And that no one is actually more important than another.

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This is why I say that.

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I think there have to be these conversations within ourselves.

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About what are we doing?

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You know, what is our message?

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What do people think that we stand for?

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And have we created a vision

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that's big enough

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to involve everyone

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It's often a lack of imagination.

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And I was, you know that I'm in the process of moving my dad out

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of state, he, he's been in the same place for 34 years, and

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it's it his age, almost 77, this is a big huge change. So

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we were driving 14 hours, and I was watching a lot of traffic

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coming on and off the freeway. And I had this thought of these

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two cars that we were making room for the car that was coming

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on. And then there was somebody, another car, who didn't lose

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their space, I didn't lose my space, I needed to move slow

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down a little bit, in order to safely have the person come in

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front of me, the other person, you know, stayed at their speed,

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there was just room. So when you have an abundance mindset, di is

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possible. Right? And then whatever we can systematize we

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can put in structures and institutions and stuff, it

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becomes probable.

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But first, we start with the possible it's possible. And I

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know you're a big, you know, one of your one of the things that

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you really teach is about this, the power of possibility. And

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being that place of possibility. In our, in our conversation

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today as communicators really being that place of possibility

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for us to make room for anybody who's entering and exiting. But

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everybody still has their role. Everybody is still there, maybe

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we have to adjust our speed a little bit. However, we're all

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there in order to get to where we want to go. And there's an

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alignment there. You know, there's a story that you've told

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me

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a few times when you were doing a corporate diversity training

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at a very large company. And you got into this discussion, I

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believe you were the trainer, and there's someone in the

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audience that was kind of challenging you around the

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marriage equality, conversation. Do you remember the story? Okay,

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can you can you recite the story for folks, and it's that that

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ending, aha, and how you

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named the interaction, and the motivation of the audience

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member, that you kind of, you put a name to it. And I think

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it's incredibly profound and something that I think

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communicators would benefit from an understanding that hesitancy,

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even the pushback, etc, that they may be experiencing

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specifically from leaders?

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Well, it's interesting that you should ask me about this. Um, I

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just included it in one of my podcasts. Within the last month

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or two.

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I did the podcast with Dr. Anita Sanchez, one of my colleagues,

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and it was kind of a trip down memory lane asking her did she

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remember that moment? Because I was doing this work under her

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banner, okay, or with her husband. Their firm is called

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scientists tennis. And I was one of their associates for many,

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many years. So we're at this large tech company, this

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particular event happened in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken,

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everybody know, it was Colorado, in particular, because this was

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when Colorado was the first state to really get knee deep

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into the marriage equality issue.

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This particular training was with only management. So they

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were coming in from all over the place. At the time, my role

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within the training was to discuss issues in regards to the

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LGBTQ community. As far as employment goes, there was the

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company was coming out supportive of domestic

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partnerships, and they were coming out to be supportive of

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whatever it was that needed to happen within the broader

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society to have the relationships between same sex

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couples legitimize this was making one particular manager

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very, very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. And I noticed I

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pick pardon, while he was a straight white male, middle

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aged.

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Yes

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professed

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Christian,

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devout Christian by his own, you know, definition, and his

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frustration was frustrating me

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So I knew enough to just stop for a moment. And I did when I'm

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suggesting I listened. So I just stepped back.

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And I gave him the floor.

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And I said,

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what you just said was, you don't have anything personally

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against gay people, you would never do anything to hurt or

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harm, discriminate against them, hold them back, give them lesser

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assignments on your teams, or anything like that.

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You believe that people should be able to be in whatever kind

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of relationships that they want to be in. But you cannot get

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behind the company

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endorsing domestic partnerships, because you feel that isn't an

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encroachment upon your understanding of marriage, which

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is in the domain of a male and a female, according to your

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religious beliefs, that this policy goes up against your

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religious belief. For that reason, you'll cooperate with it

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if you have to, but you can't really wholeheartedly support

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it. And because you don't support it, you don't want to be

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considered anti diversity.

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And he just,

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it was like, somebody took the, the weight right off his

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shoulders, and he to sit? Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. And

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I said, you know, I get it.

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At this particular point in time, we were just in shock. And

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all in Iraq, wasn't too long after 911.

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Supposedly, they had these weapons of mass destruction that

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nobody could find, right?

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So I said to him, I get it.

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I said, because there is no amount of training in the world,

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to convince me that shot in all is okay. I am not against the

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military. I don't want to do anything that's gonna hurt the

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military. I'm fine with the military. But just because I

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don't support all of my nation's foreign policy. And I don't want

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to be considered unpatriotic, for doing that.

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And at this moment,

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we both were standing. And we just looked at each other, and

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we migrated to each other, we hug and we both actually started

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to cry.

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Amazing, something broke, he didn't change his mind. I didn't

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change my mind. But the conflict stopped, because the conflicts

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are never about differences. It's the polarization around the

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differences.

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And when we depolarize,

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we could step into that vision that we had of what the company

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could be.

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You saw him, you heard him, you valued him. And you found that

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connection with him.

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And it's that listening, like you were talking about the two

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years, one mouth, that's the main thing that I'm trying to

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say is that everybody has to be valued. And even just in your

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analogy that you were making about on the road, and can we

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make room for the new people who were like coming in?

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But can we also make sure that the ones that were already on

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the road

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are also feeling seen and valued, like their journeys are

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just as important?

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As want everyone to take a breath for a second year,

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because this is really big.

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This is something that's going to take some time to process. I

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mean, every time I heard you hear you share that example, I

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met another level of process with that. Is it that example or

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a different example of a time where you talk about making

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space for fighting for their right to believe what they

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believe in? Oh, yeah.

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You're speaking of a debate that I was in at the

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San Francisco club. This was also around the issue of

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marriage equality.

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This particular guy was a Muslim guy with seven children, a

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Muslim leader. And let me be more specific, we were clergy.

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And he was very, very anti.

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Same sex marriage, marriage equality.

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So at the end of the whole thing I said to him, you know, I think

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you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong. I said, this is clear. I

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said, but that's not the real difference between us. Our

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stance on marriage equality, that's not our difference. I

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said, Let me tell you what our real difference is. I said, our

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real difference is that I will forever fight

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for your right to say I'm wrong.

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You just want to silence me.

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That's what I told him.

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I think this is another podcast episode, talking about this. And

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you were talking, you're alluding into it earlier of just

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kind of this

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power dynamic, the power struggle, you are putting your

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fists together and having them pushed against each other. And

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that it's it's a, it's a, it's a shifting of the power struggle

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and the power dynamic, which we see played out in corporations

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at all levels. And I think what those two examples that you just

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shared, are things that us as communicators really need to

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take some time to really process and see where we are. Not making

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space, not valuing

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where we just want to power forward, rather than bring

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people with us is not part of the definition of leadership is

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like, you know, turning around and looking to see if anyone's

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behind you. Anything you want to speak to that and your closing

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thoughts.

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I have a series out called Letters from the infinite.

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They're just these divine downloads that I get in the form

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of letters it's published by sounds true. And there is a

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definition that's given of a religion. And what religious

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edicts if there are any, like what those should be principles,

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and I think it applies to Dei.

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It said that any kind of religious laws should should be

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like traffic laws.

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They don't tell you where to go.

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They just ensure that everybody can arrive safely at their own

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destination without interfering with each other's journeys. Oh,

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damn, this is good, keep going.

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I'll say it again.

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That I believe that dei should be like this definition that was

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given about religious laws, said religious laws should be like

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traffic laws.

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And this is what I think di needs to be. It doesn't tell you

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where to go.

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It just ensures that each and every person can arrived safely

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at their destination

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without interfering with each other's journeys

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take a breath with me listeners.

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People are going to have some feelings about we just what we

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just talked about. And I encourage folks to process them

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to

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you know, find support. You've got rev DS podcasts that you can

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listen to. And her books. Tell us about those Rev.

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Yes, so my podcast you can find on any podcast channel, under

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REV D. Now I have a rev D now channel that has three podcasts

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shows on it.

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And by books you can find online. The sacred Yes, and your

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deepest intent, both in the letters from the infinite

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series. And those are the kinds of books that you don't like,

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right, you know, go from the beginning. It's one of those

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that you just kind of open up and just just see see where

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you're led to see what needs to be spoken to you in

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In that moment, for sure, and I do coaching,

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you know, and as well as you know, continual continual,

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you know, consulting, as well as ongoing training, because, you

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know, when one time training doesn't work, so you have to do

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it on a regular basis, but also embedding it within our

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communication policies and processes, our editorial

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workflow, all of the things, one of the other sayings that rev D

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has is that,

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and I've, you know, and to put communicators spin on it, it's

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that, you know, whatever you want is, the result has to be a

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part of the process, which I believe you shared in our first

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podcast. So if you want di communications as a result, and

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di Communications has to be a part of the process doesn't

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magically happen without it intentionally built into our

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systems and processes. So we're gonna keep talking, we're gonna

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have you back as our our correspondent, to, to di

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communications, thank you for your generous sharing, please

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support Rev. D. And all that she does follow her, engage with

Unknown:

her. But don't, don't brush this away what you heard in this

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podcast episode, specifically, or any, any, any, anytime that

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you hear rev D speak, let it sit with you, you get mad at it,

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punch in the air about it. Because another one of her

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sayings is, maybe we'll talk about this in a future podcast,

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but the whole idea of feel DL, he'll

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and famous musicians have even put that on a slide while they

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are on concert and in tour. And so this is something and Oprah,

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you know, talked about it because of a young love and that

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quoting you, during one of her major shows that she's done. So

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it's out there in the world, but you need to know that it's rev D

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that talks about these things. And they're profound. And just

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imagine I've been mentoring, I've been mentoring under her

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for 20 years. We're recording this in April and 2023. And

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we've known each other for 19 years, it was April 2004. When

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we first met, and I knew what I was getting into then, and I've

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changed my life, you've changed 1000s of lives. And then because

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of that ripple effect, it has improved millions of lives. So

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thank you for your work and your legacy.

Unknown:

Well, thank you, Kim. And

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you know, I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm not saying that

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any one person has the answer. What I'm saying is that we need

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to engage in the conversation.

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I love the way that Lynne twist puts it. Another one of my

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colleagues who also has endorsed my work. She says the problem is

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not our on answered questions. It's our unquestioned answers.

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So much that I have to process through just this conversation.

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On ongoing Oh, Rev. D, thank you so much. Thank you for being

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back and for gifting your knowledge. We have a transcribed

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dinner conversation that I turned into an article, and we

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will put it in the show notes. It's talking about understanding

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the DEI backlash. And so y'all need to go a little deeper on

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this work. So we're going to include a link to that article

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for you to learn more. And I have done trainings and speaking

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engagements based on that article, people are like, talk

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to us more about what that looks like and feels like and I bring

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that article and reference it throughout and turn it into a

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real you know, in real life kind of experience for people to work

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through because we have to have these conversations. We have to

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talk about this. The fastest way is through, not under not

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running away, not blocking

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the facet and it's only forward from here. Thank you rev D for

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leading this work and for the last several decades of leading

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this work and all the different ways that you have my pleasure.

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