Shownotes
Episode Summary
President and CEO of Unfold, Dr. John Purcell returns to the show to discuss the progress he’s made helping improve efficiencies within the indoor agriculture community. John speaks to his desire to branch out beyond leafy greens, tomatoes and cucumbers to other crops and talks about the recent launch of their Innovation Partner Program.
John discusses the various challenges facing the vertical farming industry, how he approaches strategically growing a team, and what the next year holds for Unfold.
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Key Takeaways
03:41 – Harry welcomes back to the show CEO of Unfold, John Purcell, to discuss ongoing Vertical Farming conferences, supply chain and growing a team strategically
14:33 – The product mix at Unfold
18:29 – Identifying the ideal strategic partner
22:12 – The evolution of breeding programs in vertical farming
24:26 – Overcoming challenges of supply chain, food deserts, and access to local, fresh food
34:12 – Innovations that are happening in the vertical farming industry
44:10 – Exciting plans for Unfold
45:48 – A tough question John has asked himself recently and an ask he has for the audience
51:11 – Harry thanks John for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can learn more about the work he’s doing at Unfold
Tweetable Quotes
“I think for Vertical Farming to really realize its full potential , we have to be seen as part of the supply chain. We have to be seen as part of where produce is heading, an important part rather than just this island out there that has really cool tech.” (10:19) (John)
“What we’re most interested in is companies that can generate data, do the testing and trialing, and then provide that on the performance of our specific genetic packages that we’re providing.” (20:23) (John)
“It doesn’t matter where you are in the world, whether it’s urban areas or mega cities, people want fresh, local, great quality produce. And they want it produced near to where they’re consuming it. So that’s holding now everywhere in the world.” (25:25) (John)
“One of the things I was taught early on when I went into the vegetable side of the business was don’t talk about taste, talk about sensory experience. Because the fact is, the way that we perceive an eating experience goes well beyond taste. It’s how it feels in your mouth. It’s even the sound. Is the crunch, right? It’s the color. It’s the appearance.” (32:04) (John)
Resources Mentioned
Vertical Farming Show – https://verticalfarmingshow.com/
Unfold Website – https://unfold.ag/
Unfold Twitter – https://twitter.com/unfold_ag
Unfold LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/unfold-ag/
John’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jppurcell/
Sponsor Info
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
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Speaker:that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. And maybe it's because, you know, a
Speaker:lot of the funding obviously came out of kind of a venture capital world, and
Speaker:they were very protective on how they do it, how they grow it, what they're
Speaker:after, because that's sort of their, you know, it's their secret sauce, right? And so
Speaker:they don't want to be too open about what that is, which I get because
Speaker:they're trying to protect that investment. But I think in a lot of agriculture, There
Speaker:is more collaboration. In a lot of forms, you see a more open kind of
Speaker:feeling of contributing and getting the kinds of interactions that allow
Speaker:you to advance your own business, but also advance the sector as a
Speaker:whole.
Speaker:Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast. Weekly conversations with
Speaker:fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech visionaries.
Speaker:Join us every week as we dive deep into the world of vertical
Speaker:farming with your host, Harry Duran.
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast, Season 5. Welcome back. If this is your first time listening, you
Speaker:are in the right place. This is the show where I interview fascinating
Speaker:CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from around the
Speaker:world, and folks doing interesting work in the space
Speaker:as well. I'm your host, Harry Duran. In case you missed last
Speaker:week's episode, we kicked off season 5 with Juan Gabriel Succar.
Speaker:He's the CEO and director of Verde Compacto. They're doing some fascinating
Speaker:first mover things in the world of vertical farming in
Speaker:Mexico, and I was really happy to kick the season off with
Speaker:him. We had a really great conversation. Make sure you check that out. This week,
Speaker:round 2 with John Purcell, CEO of Unfold. John is a friend of the
Speaker:show. I'm really grateful that we got to connect at Indoor AgCon
Speaker:in Vegas, what seems now like a month ago.
Speaker:Time is flying in 2022, but it's really interesting
Speaker:and really inspiring to see how active Jon is in the space.
Speaker:And he comes back to the show to discuss the progress they've made helping improve
Speaker:efficiencies within the community, his desire to
Speaker:branch out beyond leafy greens, tomatoes, and cucumbers to other crops, And he talks
Speaker:about the recent launch of their Innovation Partner Program. With the various challenges
Speaker:facing this industry, he discusses how he's approaching
Speaker:strategically growing a team and what the next year holds for Unfold.
Speaker:Really exciting to hear about the updates, and always grateful to have another
Speaker:hour with, uh, return guests. I'm sure you'll enjoy this one.
Speaker:This episode is also brought to you by the Vertical Farming Weekly Newsletter. Each week,
Speaker:our team member Noah brings you the latest and greatest in the world of vertical
Speaker:farming. If you are not subscribed, what are you waiting for? It's
Speaker:very easy, just go to verticalfarmingweekly.com. If you
Speaker:enjoyed this episode or past episodes and you have not left us
Speaker:a rating and a review, I'm speaking to you specifically. Head on over to
Speaker:ratethispodcast.com/vfp. I'd love to read yours out
Speaker:next. Okay, let's jump into this conversation with John. So,
Speaker:John Purcell, CEO of Unfold, thank you so much for round 2 on
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast. No problem. Good to see you, Harry. So we
Speaker:managed to bump into each other at Indoor AgCon a little
Speaker:bit. It was my first conference since COVID
Speaker:I hadn't been into anything in 2 years. I don't know if it was the
Speaker:same case as for you. No, I'd actually done Indoor AgCon
Speaker:in Orlando. Okay. In the fall. This one
Speaker:felt more natural. I think the Orlando one, I was really
Speaker:glad they did it 'cause everybody was like, really wanted to get together in
Speaker:person. But this one had a, I think a better flow. I think people were
Speaker:more comfortable, but the organizers did a great job, frankly, because they had
Speaker:such a quick turnaround. Yeah, between the fall and then in Las Vegas. But,
Speaker:uh, great job. And, uh, it was good to see you. Sorry we didn't get
Speaker:a chance to chat more, but it was crazy, man. It was so— there were
Speaker:so many people to talk to. It was fun. It was— it went by so—
Speaker:like, like we always say this after the fact, like, it went by so fast.
Speaker:And for me, it was a lot to take in because it was my first
Speaker:vertical farming conference. And so it was exciting for me to, you
Speaker:know, put faces to names, to shake hands, to, to You know, see
Speaker:you even, even briefly. I saw Nico from
Speaker:NetLed and a couple of other folks, the folks from IGS, and it was just
Speaker:nice. You know, it's— I think we take for granted how much we
Speaker:value like human-to-human connection because of everything that's happened the
Speaker:past 2 years. And I think being out there, and for you being
Speaker:out there with your peers and colleagues, and for me just, you know, connecting with
Speaker:folks that had just up until then been on the other side of a camera,
Speaker:it feels really good. And I think you don't realize how much you need that
Speaker:human connection until you don't have it for an extended period of time. No, it's
Speaker:true. And yeah, in, in many ways, business always
Speaker:boils down to relationships. You know, even as
Speaker:digital as we are now and as virtual as we are now, I think if
Speaker:anything, COVID made people realize, yeah, there's a lot we can do virtually,
Speaker:but man, nothing replaces just seeing people and just chatting, you know?
Speaker:And so, no, it was great. I think you could feel almost that pent-up
Speaker:energy. Everybody wanted to talk to everybody, which was insane,
Speaker:but it was kind of cool. It was like you're unleashing this, Oh my God,
Speaker:they're all tucked together and talk. So, but yeah, it was good. How important are
Speaker:these types of events for you, either, you know, for the business or
Speaker:just for you to continue to maintain those connections in the
Speaker:industry? Well, I think for us, and again, for any kind of solutions
Speaker:provider, it's critical because one of the things that always has struck
Speaker:me with vertical, and it's true with a lot of agriculture, but it really
Speaker:is the collaborations that make the difference. And, you know, it's not just, we're a
Speaker:seed company, obviously trying to, you know, get a chance to talk with
Speaker:our direct customers, i.e., the, you know, the But, you know,
Speaker:everybody's in the equation, whether it be the robotics companies, the lighting
Speaker:companies that, you know, I think because there's so much of a
Speaker:technology play in this, it's even more important in an industry like
Speaker:vertical, in a sector like vertical, because you have to have all
Speaker:the pieces come together. And that's what we try to get outta these meetings. You
Speaker:know, we had, you know, it's the formal presentations, which are
Speaker:great, but actually it's all the break times, it's the dinner, it's the lunches,
Speaker:because that's when you really can talk about where you're heading and try to get
Speaker:you know, those real deeper collaborations that I think are so important for this
Speaker:sector as well as everybody in food and ag. Did you have— I mean, I
Speaker:know people, and I usually do this from the podcasting side because I've attended
Speaker:multiple podcast conferences, and you have this plan maybe for like, oh,
Speaker:these handful of folks that I want to see, that I want to connect with.
Speaker:Are you going to be there? You start getting pinged from all your colleagues. Let's
Speaker:grab lunch. And, you know, you know what they say about best laid plans.
Speaker:And then you get there and everything just kind of falls apart. But did you
Speaker:have a little bit of a plan, you know, given that you had so
Speaker:many, you were gonna be in front of so many folks that you hadn't had
Speaker:the chance to connect with in a while? And were there conversations that you were
Speaker:looking to have that you were able to have? Yeah, actually we did. And I
Speaker:think one thing that helps too, and a lot of companies do this, we actually
Speaker:had 4 attendees. Okay. And so we did kind of divide and conquer in some
Speaker:ways. But also I knew because I was on a panel, that
Speaker:always spurs a lot of great interactions after, 'cause people hear you say something or
Speaker:they may have known a little bit about you, but then they get a, you
Speaker:know, much better sense of what you're about. So I actually have
Speaker:more open time going in than my 3 colleagues, 'cause for
Speaker:them, they knew there were certain people they wanted to hit depending upon, you know,
Speaker:what angle they were coming at. But for me, I knew I had to keep
Speaker:more open time just 'cause whenever you're on stage, it gives you a great opportunity
Speaker:to kind of tell your story. And then there's always follow-ups after 'cause people see
Speaker:you and say, oh, can we talk? That's always, for me, that's always important to
Speaker:make sure you keep enough flexibility in these schedules too. What were some of the
Speaker:takeaways from you? I know I got to catch, you know, a lot of folks
Speaker:giving their talks about the state of the industry, where we're headed, you know, some
Speaker:of the challenges that the industry is facing. And I, what I
Speaker:appreciated was seeing you in the audience when some of your colleagues were there,
Speaker:you know, who could arguably be said as competitors in the space or partners in
Speaker:the space. But is it important for you to sort of have a finger on
Speaker:the pulse and hear firsthand from, you know, your
Speaker:colleagues what's happening, what their perspectives are on where we're headed?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely. And I do think almost every one of these indoor ag cons— I've
Speaker:been going for several years now— have gotten better. And I think
Speaker:particularly in one respect, you probably remember when we talked
Speaker:before, the hype drives me crazy. I mean, I just, you know, I think it's
Speaker:just you don't need it. I mean, we got a great story to tell. It's
Speaker:an amazing industry, an amazing sector. But I do think we're making good
Speaker:progress where you're not just like giving a spiel for
Speaker:investors, but you're really talking about the business. And you're really talking about what
Speaker:we need to do to move the industry forward. There's
Speaker:individual stories, of course, individual companies, but I do think it was
Speaker:less hype, which was great, and more reality. I think the other thing
Speaker:I've seen over the last couple of these is you're seeing, I guess what I'd
Speaker:call kind of the produce pros, more of them in there, you know, not just
Speaker:from— I mean, as you know, I came from the ag industry, been in
Speaker:veggies for 12, 13 years now, but people who came in through
Speaker:were the produce side, whether it be from seeds or produce buyers
Speaker:or retailers. There was a heavier dose of those folks, which
Speaker:is great, 'cause it's telling you that it's being recognized now as
Speaker:an important part of the supply chain. It's not just kind of this techie thing
Speaker:out here that everybody's excited about, but it really is seen as part of a
Speaker:multi-trillion-dollar industry. And so I think for me, that was
Speaker:really good to see. And of course, I knew a lot of those folks from
Speaker:my previous time, but I do think that was real. So to me, the biggest
Speaker:message was, I think there was more dose reality, which was great. The
Speaker:hype was lower. And I do think it benefited from having, as I say,
Speaker:some of the real produce pros on the panels, in the conversation,
Speaker:because I think for vertical to really realize its full potential, we
Speaker:have to be, you know, seen as part of the supply chain, seen as
Speaker:part of where produce is heading, an important part, rather than just
Speaker:this kind of island out there that's really cool tech, you know, without
Speaker:necessarily having the impact we all wanted to have. One of the
Speaker:stats that constantly gets talked about is the cost
Speaker:to produce, you know, and how people glamorize vertical farming
Speaker:because it's sexy. And I think it might have been you that
Speaker:told me, or someone in an earlier conversation, that like when you told— I think
Speaker:it was your daughter— that you were in vertical farming, now you're cool again because
Speaker:you're in the vertical farming niche. It was her,
Speaker:actually. No, no. And I do think
Speaker:it benefits from that because it does have the cool factor. But also, I think
Speaker:it suffers a bit from that too, because in the end, you're still producing
Speaker:crop, you know, you're still having to provide not just great quality, but
Speaker:something that people can afford. You have to compete for, you know, for
Speaker:market share, for shelf space, just like every other producer does.
Speaker:And so yeah, the, you know, the kind of the glamour of it gets you
Speaker:to a certain point. But in the end, it has to meet all the other
Speaker:standards, both from a quality perspective, price perspective, you know,
Speaker:consistency for the supply chain, etc., that every producer has
Speaker:to meet. Yeah, it's crazy to think about how far back our
Speaker:conversation goes because you were episode 17 and we just wrapped
Speaker:up episode— season 4, episode 52. So, wow, it's
Speaker:wild. But a lot has happened with Unfold as well in terms of how you've
Speaker:grown the team. You announced David as your new CEO. Can you talk a
Speaker:little bit about your thought about where you're looking
Speaker:to strategically grow the team and why that was an important
Speaker:hire for you. Yeah, yeah. So, and I think it is. I think what we've
Speaker:done, so to get you caught up, so we've got our R&D site now in
Speaker:progress, state-of-the-art, gonna be really, really cool in Davis, California. We've
Speaker:got great collaborations on the technology side. We've got
Speaker:about 20 employees now, which is really cool. You know, as you know, I went
Speaker:from heading an 800-person R&D organization to 6 hours
Speaker:later being the only employee of Unfold, which is a heck of a transition. I
Speaker:think we talked about it last time, but now we're up to 20. It's really
Speaker:nice mix of folks. We've got— made some really— got to attract some
Speaker:great people from Silicon Valley, like companies like Facebook,
Speaker:etc., though they want to contribute in a different way and contribute to
Speaker:FoodNAG. So that's been great. And then adding people coming in more from my
Speaker:world, the FoodNAG sector, getting folks from great companies like, like
Speaker:Bayer and BASF, etc. So it's a nice team. And then
Speaker:David Knopfman came on as our COO, as you mentioned, and I think
Speaker:that's really the next phase for us is We've kind of built the R&D engine
Speaker:and we did get our— we have R&D up and running because we're leasing facilities
Speaker:at Bayer actually to get our R&D up and running, which we've been doing for
Speaker:a while, greenhouses, chambers, et cetera, while we're building our site. But the
Speaker:commercial is kind of the next play for us because now that we have the
Speaker:engine up and going, we're getting to a point where we need to really
Speaker:develop what is our business model. And we're looking at
Speaker:developing seed for vertical, but also the digital
Speaker:package, i.e., the crop model, the, you know, basically the the
Speaker:recipe on how to grow it too and combine those 2 for, I think, be
Speaker:a really impactful product portfolio. So bringing David on, he's building his
Speaker:commercial team now, which is cool. We've got our first customer relations being
Speaker:established, which is great. I'm gonna talk a little bit about that, this innovation partner
Speaker:program, if I could. And then we got our first revenue, knock on
Speaker:wood, for, you know, not even 2 years in though. It's modest, Terry. I'm not
Speaker:gonna tell you it's many more than that, but it's nice to have some sales
Speaker:because I think if nothing else, for some, you know, for companies just getting
Speaker:started to be able to have that validation that, yeah, what we have And
Speaker:now what we're offering is actually in the ultimate, somebody has to wanna buy
Speaker:something, right? And then they do, which is cool. But yeah, and I do think,
Speaker:I like our positioning. I like where we are. The board seems happy, which makes
Speaker:me happy. But no, it's been a wild ride for,
Speaker:gosh, 20, 21 months, I guess now. But it's been fun. And I do think
Speaker:we're, the response from the industry's been great too. I think, you know, having
Speaker:a company that's 100% focused on indoor ag, from the seed
Speaker:perspective. I just know the challenges I had when I was at Bayer trying to
Speaker:carve that out within a big R&D organization. So having that
Speaker:focus, we've gotten really good receptivity from a lot of growers on, you know, wanting
Speaker:to work with us. Can you talk a little about the product mix in
Speaker:terms of, you know, you mentioned your first sale, so anything specifically you want to
Speaker:go into deeper on that so that people who are new to
Speaker:Unfold or maybe hearing about you for the first time, and I definitely encourage them
Speaker:to go back to hear the backstory on episode 7, But like, you know,
Speaker:maybe a little bit of an overview of where you're strategically
Speaker:positioned and who is a best fit for you in terms of partners
Speaker:and customers. Sure, absolutely. So we are, uh,
Speaker:you know, Unfold came out of, um, just to recap a little bit, came out
Speaker:of, uh, obviously, uh, funding, which was important. We had $30 million startup, which
Speaker:was great, between Temasek and Leaps by Bayer. But the other part
Speaker:of the, the launch of Unfold was license agreement with Bayer.
Speaker:And Bayer is a major supplier of vegetable seeds. The group I used to head
Speaker:R&D for Bayer Vegetables. But the— so we have 5 crops to begin
Speaker:with in our portfolio: lettuce, spinach, tomato, pepper, cucumber. Lettuce
Speaker:and spinach are sort of existing markets that growers are already participating
Speaker:in. We want to provide and bring new innovations there. Tomato, pepper, and
Speaker:cucumber, I think, is a really important next step, I think, for the industry
Speaker:and the sector to really grow. We got to make the leap to fruiting crops.
Speaker:Berries is another one. Bayer is not into berries, but, you know, we were looking
Speaker:for other opportunities for that germplasm. But I think we started off with a really
Speaker:nice foundation. The money's great, obviously, but I think the ability
Speaker:now to mine— even Bayer's competitors would say world-class
Speaker:germplasm, but we have the license specifically for vertical,
Speaker:which is great. So we're taking full advantage of that. So that's our portfolio at
Speaker:this point. I think we're focusing on the leafies for the short term, but we're
Speaker:really trying to make great progress on bringing the other crops online, tomato
Speaker:being our biggest effort right now, but pepper and cucumber down the
Speaker:road. And then from the customer base, I think the other thing is what we
Speaker:launched at Indoor AgCon was a program we call the Innovation Partner Program.
Speaker:But what it's about is I really believe that this sector needs deeper
Speaker:relationships between— I mean, there's some great relationships, I think, on the sort of the
Speaker:mechanics of growing, you know, the lighting, the robotics and all that. And that's really
Speaker:where a lot of these farms started. But I do think in some ways
Speaker:it's been much underserved from the seed side, from the
Speaker:genetic side. So that's what really was the genesis of the Innovation Partner
Speaker:Program. We, you know, we want to take it beyond a transactional
Speaker:relationship. I mean, we're fine if people want to try some seed and buy it.
Speaker:I'm not going to turn down sales, but make it a more collaborative approach, you
Speaker:know, share learning, share data, you know, within limits, and then share the success
Speaker:of that. But I do think that kind of deeper relationship What we're
Speaker:finding is there are definitely companies open to that and recognizing
Speaker:that if you have a great partnership with your supplier, in our case with the
Speaker:seeds, we can really make a lot of advances and help drive
Speaker:innovation. You know, it'll help them as a producer, but also I think it'll
Speaker:benefit the whole sector because we're gonna be learning a lot. We're gonna be, you
Speaker:know, actually developing varieties specifically for vertical
Speaker:farming and just help advance the state of the art, if you will, as far
Speaker:as genetics go for vertical. And that's really the, with the Innovation
Speaker:Partner Program, came about. And we've got partners now in North America,
Speaker:Europe, and Asia. I can't tell you because we're gonna be announcing soon, Harry, but
Speaker:we're not quite there yet who they are. But you'll be first on our list
Speaker:to get those when they come out. Thank you. You'll recognize some of the names,
Speaker:but it's really exciting for us to be able to, uh, to be able to
Speaker:participate that way. And, you know, there's some companies that frankly aren't in a
Speaker:position to do that. You know, as you look at this sector, there are some
Speaker:that are much smaller, don't necessarily have— producers, I mean— much
Speaker:smaller, may not have the R&D kind of capabilities or data capabilities. And we're fine.
Speaker:We'd love to be able to work with them on seeing if our seed works.
Speaker:But these are deeper relationships with companies that have, you know, more
Speaker:significant kind of R&D capabilities, testing capabilities, data
Speaker:capabilities. That's where we've had some really good traction with some
Speaker:major players now that we'll be announcing. And like I say, on 3 different continents
Speaker:who are part of this program, and we're excited about it because I think it'll
Speaker:help the whole industry. John, when you talk about the importance of developing
Speaker:deeper relationships with these partners through the Innovation Partner Program, I'm
Speaker:curious, like, what do you look for? Like, what is— what obviously we're going to
Speaker:hear more when you make the announcement, but when you think about who makes for
Speaker:a strategic partner, who makes for a good partner, who do you want to work
Speaker:with? Who is open to work with you? What are some of the criteria that
Speaker:you're looking for? The first is your last point, openness. It's people that
Speaker:understand that because, you know, I think one of the things that's interesting about this
Speaker:sector especially, and maybe it's because, you know, a lot of the funding
Speaker:obviously came out of kind of a venture capital world and they were very
Speaker:protective on how they do it, how they grow it, what they're after, because that's
Speaker:sort of their, you know, their secret sauce, right? And so they don't want to
Speaker:be too open about what that is, which I get because they're trying to protect
Speaker:that investment. But I think in a lot of agriculture, there is more
Speaker:collaboration. In a lot of forms, you see a more open kind of feeling of
Speaker:contributing and getting the kinds of interactions that allow you to
Speaker:advance your own business, but also advance the sector as a whole. So one
Speaker:of the things we look for is just that openness, you know, people that understand
Speaker:that you know, they're going to give some, but they're going to get a lot.
Speaker:And then the second is, it's just basic capacity. For a lot of
Speaker:companies, you know, smaller growers, they're not necessarily able to build—
Speaker:in some key— in some cases, companies are building separate R&D facilities or building a
Speaker:significant piece of— they take out of production to just to do
Speaker:testing and trialing. You know, for smaller growers, that's not in the cards. They
Speaker:just, you know, they don't have the capacities. So the capacity is the second one.
Speaker:And then the third one is just the data side of things, having the kind
Speaker:of data capabilities and data both on the environmental
Speaker:data, so you understand how you're growing the crop, but also
Speaker:the assessment data on the performance of varieties. Because
Speaker:what we're interested in is the latter. We want to know, you know, how does
Speaker:our genetics perform in their environments? But of course, they have to have the ability
Speaker:to understand what it is and how they're controlling that environment to
Speaker:share what they can of that. We recognize that's in some cases very proprietary.
Speaker:And we're not, you know, we're obviously not asking to do anything more than they're
Speaker:comfortable with. But really what we're most interested in is companies that can generate
Speaker:data, do the testing and trialing, and then provide that on the performance of
Speaker:our specific genetic packages that we're providing. And is it
Speaker:still early days? Are you seeing some of the output of that, or
Speaker:you're still sort of like laying the groundwork for that right now? No, we are.
Speaker:And I think it's cool is we, you know, it's with some of these companies
Speaker:that we'll be talking about in the coming weeks, they've already gone through multiple phases
Speaker:of trialing. They've already selected varieties that are basically the last phases before
Speaker:commercialization. Because any pipeline, Harry, always starts with the big funnel, right? You've got
Speaker:lots of materials flowing in. What you have to do is what works for them.
Speaker:But we're at the phase, the stage now where they've made— they've turned multiple turns,
Speaker:they've seen performance, they've then reassessed at a larger scale, and they're advancing
Speaker:it to basically right before commercial or pre-commercial launches, which is great for us.
Speaker:So we are seeing, you know, some progress and some We're hitting some milestones
Speaker:here, which is very satisfying on materials because, you know, I think we may
Speaker:have talked about this before, but it's really kind of a biphasic approach. This
Speaker:first phase is just taking all the materials that we can access from Bayer and
Speaker:just testing it because a lot of this stuff has never been tried under vertical.
Speaker:It does a couple of things. One is you can identify varieties that actually will
Speaker:work, and that's— we're seeing some of that, which is great. But the second thing
Speaker:it does for us here is it's then informing us as Okay, if this
Speaker:is the variety that works, let's look at the parents of that. Let's look at
Speaker:the grandparents of that. Let's look at the genetics, order your pedigrees, and then
Speaker:that helps you get your breeding programs in place. So then you can bring the
Speaker:next generation of products in a year or 2 or 3 that's even better
Speaker:based on what you already see having some success in their
Speaker:operation. So, but no, the good news is, yeah, we are seeing some successes just
Speaker:in that screening part of the process. But certainly it's helping us to get our
Speaker:organization together as far as How do we conduct our breeding program?
Speaker:What are the genetic elements that are most important? And then how do we do
Speaker:our breeding program from there? Do you find that those skill sets, like people
Speaker:who've had historical experience in traditional agriculture with
Speaker:breeding and genetics and testing, does that translate
Speaker:well when they come to work in a vertical farming environment?
Speaker:Yeah, only because, you know, I mean, I'm old, but, you know, 30-some years in
Speaker:the business, breeding has changed a lot. I mean, it's basically become And every
Speaker:breeding program, it doesn't matter whether your end customer is open field,
Speaker:greenhouse, glasshouse, modern breeding programs are incredibly digitized. I mean, they're just,
Speaker:they're high data intensity. They're really trying to use,
Speaker:we try to do as many selections in silico as we do in the field
Speaker:or in the greenhouse, right? It's really about predictive breeding approaches. So
Speaker:the good news is breeding has evolved that anyway. The
Speaker:coolest part about vertical, why I made the leap from Bayer, frankly, is this
Speaker:is our best opportunity to really take advantage of all the data.
Speaker:Because the challenge you have with predictive breeding approaches, let's say you're going out to
Speaker:open fields, what you can do is all this great analysis on
Speaker:this is the varieties that should work, skew it toward those selections, et cetera.
Speaker:But then you go out in the field and it's wetter than it's been in
Speaker:50 years, or it's hotter than it's been. Whereas in vertical, you
Speaker:can do those same predictive approaches, but because you're controlling the
Speaker:environment so exquisitely, It's awesome that you have a much better,
Speaker:really a much better guarantee that genetics is going to perform to its
Speaker:potential because you've been testing under those conditions throughout
Speaker:versus the wild card. And there's a basic equation of breeding:
Speaker:G by E by M. Genetics or genotype by environment
Speaker:by management. You know, you manage what you can when you're outdoors
Speaker:or when you're in a greenhouse, but greenhouse is better than outdoors, but the G
Speaker:then has to be optimized for that. Whereas in the case of vertical,
Speaker:you're using those management tools of the environment to basically control the
Speaker:environment. And then you can really optimize your genetics because
Speaker:the abiotic stresses of, you know, temperature, humidity, and then the
Speaker:biotic stresses, pests, diseases are much reduced. So you
Speaker:really can optimize your genetics and have a much better guarantee it's going to
Speaker:work on the operator scale because you've been testing it all through
Speaker:those same conditions, which is like really the same. I
Speaker:think ag's best chance to really take advantage of all the great things that have
Speaker:happened from the digitization, from a predictive approach, et cetera. How much
Speaker:of what's happened over the past 2 years has colored
Speaker:your approach to what you're focused on at Unfold?
Speaker:Has it changed at all? There's obviously been much more awareness. We talked a little
Speaker:bit about this in the first interview, people's awareness of supply chain,
Speaker:food deserts, access to local fresh food. Does that color
Speaker:or help you think about the varieties that you're working on? You did mention
Speaker:expanding beyond leafy greens, tomatoes, cucumbers. And
Speaker:do you think about those things in the context of where
Speaker:the world is headed and the challenges we're facing as well worldwide? No,
Speaker:absolutely. And I think that's, you know, that's why having partners now in North
Speaker:America, Asia, and Europe is great because then you
Speaker:get that broader context. And the way I think about it is, This first
Speaker:wave, if you will, is— it doesn't matter where you are in the world, it's
Speaker:basically urban areas, megacities, whatever you want to call them.
Speaker:People want fresh, local, they want great quality produce, and they want it
Speaker:produced near to where they're consuming it. So that's holding out
Speaker:everywhere in the world. We're seeing that. The other piece, which is really even
Speaker:bigger than I was anticipating going into this, is just how important this
Speaker:is from a domestic food production perspective in certain nations.
Speaker:I mean, you think about Singapore, You know, you have a very capital-rich
Speaker:country, a lot of investment there, very sophisticated electronics industry.
Speaker:They don't have arable land though, right? So for them, having vertical
Speaker:farms to— they have a program called 30 by 30 where right now
Speaker:less than 10% of the food they consume is produced in Singapore.
Speaker:Wow. They want to increase that to 30% by 2030. Pretty
Speaker:ambitious, but that country, when they make up their mind, then they can do it.
Speaker:And so they're really And then the other places we're seeing that same kind of
Speaker:mindset is the Middle East. Again, capital-rich, a lot of
Speaker:resources, very sophisticated kinds of economies, but it's
Speaker:desert, right? And so vertical farms, again, makes sense. And another one, Harry, you
Speaker:may not think about immediately that we had a lot of conversations about is the
Speaker:UK. And thinking UK, wow, with Brexit, it's kind of
Speaker:changed the game for them. I mean, they do vegetable production, especially brassica and crops
Speaker:like that. Yeah. But a lot of their produce flows from the Netherlands,
Speaker:greenhouses, glasshouses from the Spanish greenhouses, the open fields
Speaker:in Italy and Spain, et cetera. So, with Brexit, that's kind of changed a lot
Speaker:of their thinking on, well, actually, we need to increase our domestic food because
Speaker:of the tariffs and other things that are happening with Brexit. And so, there's been
Speaker:a lot, and they have, of course, a great history on the food and ag
Speaker:and science. So, vertical makes sense for them as well. But
Speaker:that's sort of the second tier of this thing, I think, is countries that are
Speaker:just making a really concerted effort and putting in place public
Speaker:policies to support vertical farming. And it's, you know, and it's— and really
Speaker:a lot of the farms being built are being built by European and US
Speaker:entities who then have operations in these countries as well. So it's
Speaker:really a global landscape. And then the third area, which hasn't developed
Speaker:yet, but as I've gotten a lot more, I think, sort of
Speaker:perspective on, is how can the
Speaker:existing food supply chain leverage
Speaker:vertical farming to a much greater extent? This is— you're having conversations now where
Speaker:retailers are saying, well, What if we had a vertical farm at our distribution center?
Speaker:Or what if we had a vertical farm— if you're an e-retailer, what if we
Speaker:had a vertical farm at a fulfillment center? That's a pretty cool world, you know,
Speaker:where you're literally— your supply chain is driving across a parking lot. There's an operation
Speaker:in China where they literally built it connected to their
Speaker:packaging and distribution center, and the food is produced, packaged, and
Speaker:sent right out. Harry, you can't get a better supply chain. Yeah. You
Speaker:take a lot of risk, and, you know, for a lot of retail, Taking risk
Speaker:out of your supply chain is huge. So I do think that's a play that's
Speaker:going to develop over time. Right now, of course, they're accessing produce
Speaker:from different vertical farms, but a more hands-on kind of approach or a
Speaker:more very well-connected supply chain, whether it be—
Speaker:although there's really no traditional retailers left, everybody's e-retail as well. But I mean,
Speaker:either e-retail or conventional retail, having that more intimately
Speaker:tied into their supply chain is going to be a big thing. You're not going
Speaker:to replace Salinas Valley or the greenhouses in Canada, but you can supplement it. You
Speaker:can de-risk your supply chain. And I think vertical could play a huge role in
Speaker:that. I was able to have a brief chat with Michael Yates from Walmart
Speaker:when I was at the conference. And when you think about companies
Speaker:that can have an impact and move the, you know, just move a
Speaker:lever and just really make a really big push and an awareness in
Speaker:terms of a shift, because I got the feeling a lot of folks were
Speaker:clamoring to have a conversation with Michael. Yeah,
Speaker:I've been to Benton, Arkansas, so don't worry. Everybody wants
Speaker:to— Arkansas has more visitors you could possibly imagine. But no, they're
Speaker:huge, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting when you— as you, you
Speaker:know, you know, brought up those examples and what's happening in China, and
Speaker:I think it's an awareness, and people don't realize what's happening behind the scenes, but
Speaker:a company like Walmart can shed light as to the importance of
Speaker:vertical farming, having that close connection and having that, you know, just people thinking
Speaker:about how fresh is your produce. And it's not a question most people
Speaker:ask because they're just so used to just walking to the supermarket and just seeing
Speaker:it on the shelves. But it's, it's something that I'm more conscious of. Like, I
Speaker:see the brands and I'm— I walk more slowly past the,
Speaker:the leafy greens section in supermarkets now than I used to because I'm like, oh,
Speaker:I know that company, I've spoken to that person. And I think it's Part
Speaker:of it is education as well, don't you think? Oh, it absolutely is. It absolutely
Speaker:is. And I think when you think about it, doesn't matter, be the Walmarts or
Speaker:other retailers, they're looking at this much more broadly than leafies. You know, I
Speaker:think leafies is a great place for vertical to start because, you know, low light
Speaker:intensity, you can produce a lot of it, and it's a rapid cycle time, and
Speaker:you're harvesting in 25, 30 days. So you can get a lot of produce through
Speaker:quickly. But, you know, I think for us to really realize the full potential of
Speaker:this, this is where back to the fruiting crops. You think about what's
Speaker:happened in tomatoes over the last 10-plus years, moving to much more
Speaker:snacking types, moving to smaller, moving to, you know, really the more
Speaker:flavor-intense, the consumer experience really driving tomatoes.
Speaker:There's still the big commodity tomatoes, but, you know, what most people buy are basically
Speaker:smaller, good-tasting snacking, right? And that's what the glasshouses produce.
Speaker:And peppers, you're seeing the same kind of thing. And, you know, I think all
Speaker:the crops are really looking at that convenience factor And that, you
Speaker:know, the direct consumption side of things. And that's where,
Speaker:you know, and berries have always been there. But I think for vertical to
Speaker:really, really succeed at the level we all want it to, we gotta make this
Speaker:leap. And we gotta be able to deliver not just leafies and microgreens, et
Speaker:cetera, but really deliver on the potential of fruiting crops. Because
Speaker:we've all had the experience where you get a pack of berries and they're great
Speaker:one week, and a week later maybe they're not so great. Or tomatoes. And I
Speaker:was in the tomato business for a long time, and it's tough. Yeah. Because conditions
Speaker:can change things. And as great as the growers are, you just have challenges there.
Speaker:So having that absolute consistency every day of the year,
Speaker:my gosh, at the consumer level, that would play very big. Has there
Speaker:been a transition, John, in terms of breeding where
Speaker:I imagine the focus in early days was about presentation
Speaker:and color and making sure stuff looked good and the dirty little secret
Speaker:of all the
Speaker:All the deformed tomatoes get thrown away.
Speaker:And I'm wondering now, you know, if readers think, you know, all bets are off,
Speaker:like, because there's limits obviously with what you can do in, in the
Speaker:contained environment. But in terms of like shapes that we're
Speaker:not accustomed to, you know, colors we're not accustomed to, just
Speaker:part of the education is also to the consumer to saying, hey,
Speaker:your perceived notion of what a cucumber looks and tastes
Speaker:like, or, you know, a tomato, or a tomato plant, What a, a tomato looks
Speaker:and tastes like can be different. And that's part of the challenge as well.
Speaker:No, it, it absolutely is. Because, you know, one of the things that I was
Speaker:taught early on when I went into the vegetable side of the business is, you
Speaker:know, it's not, don't talk about taste, talk about sensory experience.
Speaker:Because the fact is the way that we perceive an eating
Speaker:experience actually goes well beyond what it actually tastes. It's how it
Speaker:feels in your mouth. It's even the sound. Does it actually, do the crunch, is
Speaker:the crunch right? It's the color, it's the appearance, And one of the things
Speaker:that one of our sensory scientists taught me a great lesson, they did an
Speaker:experiment just to prove it, but he knew the answer was they actually left the
Speaker:green material, the calyx on some tomatoes, and then the other tomatoes didn't have it.
Speaker:Every time they, anyone, any of the tomatoes that had the green on there,
Speaker:people perceived as better, even though they knew the Brix were, you know,
Speaker:the sugar wasn't as good. And that just shows you the cues you have
Speaker:with your eyes or your, you know, or your, or your smell. There's a lot
Speaker:of cues that contribute to how we perceive the
Speaker:pleasing nature of what we eat. And so it is truly
Speaker:a sensory experience. But ugly fruits and things like that, yeah, they have a role
Speaker:and they're getting more part, but it's hard because there are those
Speaker:perceptions. This is what a tomato should look like, or this is what a pepper
Speaker:looks like. And then if it does, it's more likely you're going to say, well,
Speaker:that's going to taste good. And then you pick it up, well, it feels right.
Speaker:Put it in your mouth, it feels right in your mouth, and then the taste
Speaker:kind of goes along with it. But it's Very— that science, it is a
Speaker:real science. It's pretty darn complex, but it's pretty cool. But, you know,
Speaker:changing consumer attitudes or consumer perceptions on things,
Speaker:it's different, you know. But I do think vertical again is a unique position
Speaker:because you think about what they even do with leafies. It's a lot of medleys,
Speaker:it's a lot of combinations of things that people like to get. And before, you
Speaker:could only get that when you went to a restaurant, whereas now you walk into
Speaker:grocery stores, you get a really cool mix of things, right? Spring mix. Yeah. Very,
Speaker:very good. But you didn't ever, you know, years ago you didn't see that kind
Speaker:of stuff. You bought a head of iceberg and chopped it up, right? That's the—
Speaker:we're spoiled now, right? We want to have that mix. We want to have those
Speaker:things. And I'd say tomatoes going toward much smaller
Speaker:snacking types, good flavor, and the colors too. There's some really cool colors
Speaker:now. And again, it adds to a really cool— from the time you buy it,
Speaker:you're already excited. Oh, look at that neat mix I bought. So different types of
Speaker:different shapes, colors, sizes, etc. So it's been interesting because you've been,
Speaker:you have a unique perspective having been in the industry and involved in
Speaker:genetics and breeding for such a long period of time. Over the course
Speaker:of the years or even decades, what are you seeing or
Speaker:what is in, what are innovations that are happening in this space?
Speaker:Yeah, I think the, the first one is, is certainly there's been a big
Speaker:shift and then it had to happen. It kind of came with, I think, consumer
Speaker:demand for this. For a long time it was about kilograms and,
Speaker:and Shipping and, you know, getting product from point X
Speaker:to point Y at a certain price point. And then, you know, let the consumer—
Speaker:here you go, buy it, right? And so, whereas now— Take it or leave it.
Speaker:You know, sort of like, we're going to produce as much as we can at
Speaker:this price, get it to consumers, that's what they're looking for. But I think it
Speaker:doesn't matter whether it be berries or tomatoes or melons, etc. People are
Speaker:looking for a different experience and they're willing to pay a little more. They're willing
Speaker:to have— there's cost ceilings in this thing, but for good
Speaker:quality, people are willing to pay it. The other thing that's been really interesting to
Speaker:me, and so what's happened is it's driven the innovation. So you
Speaker:can't have either or. It's not going to be yield or flavor or sensory
Speaker:experience. You got to have both. And so, and from day one in any kind
Speaker:of vegetable breeding program, fruit breeding program, you've got to focus on both. How does
Speaker:it perform agronomically, but how is it going to be perceived at the consumer level?
Speaker:So that's been one of the big innovations. And the good news is, as we've
Speaker:learned more about the genetics, how to take out some of the negative attributes, how
Speaker:to still have decent yields, but then build in
Speaker:the sensory experience. And that's really come with a lot of the power of modern
Speaker:biology, which is understanding at the genetic level what's happening. But the other thing at
Speaker:the consumer level, which has been interesting to me, is that it used to
Speaker:be, it was about how does it taste and how much does it cost, kind
Speaker:of the standard intrinsic qualities of that. But now the questions
Speaker:people ask is, Where was it grown? How was it grown?
Speaker:Who grew it? Which gets you to a whole different kind of
Speaker:what is the information you need to provide to consumers? How do you tell the
Speaker:story of this? But that's pretty cool, actually. You know, I think it's a
Speaker:maturing of it, but also it gives you an opportunity to really use
Speaker:all the power of the way you can give people information
Speaker:now to tell the story of your fruit and veggies. And that's a really cool
Speaker:thing to do. It's very different, the kinds of questions consumers
Speaker:ask now, well beyond kind of the intrinsic qualities of the fruit and
Speaker:veggie. That's interesting because it brings up the question of how well— because
Speaker:my marketing brain then just kicks in. Like, when people like, you know, I
Speaker:like going into restaurants where you see the back of the menu and it's the
Speaker:story of like the owners and like, you know, how they started. And we
Speaker:started in like this small little place and now it's grown. And
Speaker:by the time you're like ready to order, you feel like a connection to the
Speaker:place where you're enjoying your meal. And I'm wondering, as you were saying that,
Speaker:I was thinking if there's opportunities with everyone in the space
Speaker:to, through the tagging, what's the journey of this tomato
Speaker:and how did it end up on your plate? And what part can
Speaker:maybe Unfold help in terms of either the tracking or telling the
Speaker:story or telling the genetic history, the family tree
Speaker:of this? Did you know what the lineage of this tomato is? Because you're talking,
Speaker:Going back previous in terms of the breeding, like when you do the,
Speaker:you talked about how you go back different up the tree in
Speaker:terms of like telling that story. And I imagine there might be a story there
Speaker:if you think back like the history of tomato and
Speaker:genetically like where they came from. No, there absolutely is. And then get
Speaker:people out that are willing to tell that story, you know, and actually personalize it.
Speaker:Talk to, have the breeder there talking about, here's what I did and here's where
Speaker:this drill's come from. But no, you're absolutely right. And it's interesting because I was
Speaker:on the Science Technology Committee of Produce Marketing, PMA. It's now
Speaker:part of IFPA. But it was interesting because we did a whole
Speaker:session, actually we did a whole initiative around how do you use
Speaker:blockchain and other ways to communicate where a product
Speaker:comes from. But it started out very much an exercise around food safety.
Speaker:It's like, okay, we got to trace all this because we want to be
Speaker:able to assure consumers the safety. If something happens, we can trace back where they're
Speaker:at and where the incident happened, etc. But it evolved pretty quickly. And
Speaker:we, you know, a lot of us espouse that, you know, we could talk— the
Speaker:defensive piece is great. You have to have food safety. Nobody's arguing that. That's your
Speaker:table stakes to get in the game. But there's a whole nother opportunity to
Speaker:use this ability, this traceability, this transparency in the supply
Speaker:chain to do exactly as your marketing brain is telling you, Harry, to tell the
Speaker:story. You know, tell this. Some restaurants do it great. I think some producers do
Speaker:it great actually too. You know, they're really talking about Here's what we're about, here's
Speaker:where we're from. And it comes down to, it's not just about the
Speaker:product, it's about the people behind the product. And we do blogs on our website
Speaker:too, and there's some great stories. One of our folks that came
Speaker:out of the dot-com world, it's really cool to hear his story, why he wants
Speaker:to use all his software engineering skills as, you know, it's
Speaker:great to help people meet each other and whatever you want to do on sharing
Speaker:photos of your vacation, but he actually wants to contribute to producing food in a
Speaker:better way. And that's a great story, right? So get him out there talking about
Speaker:that. And that's exactly what he did. So it does come down to the story
Speaker:of the product, but it's also the story of the people behind the product, which
Speaker:is a really powerful way to communicate with your consumers. Yeah, especially
Speaker:to this idea of everyone going into a supermarket and
Speaker:seeing produce as a commodity. There's really no connection.
Speaker:You go into the other aisles and you see the brands and you see the
Speaker:packaging and you see the labeling. And they spend probably more
Speaker:on the marketing sometimes than they do on the actual product. But it gives them
Speaker:a leg up because there's an association. Like, you know, if I
Speaker:asked you, like, what's your childhood memory of, like, your— what's your
Speaker:first smell, like, as a child? Like, you know, does anything come to mind?
Speaker:First smell? Is it— yeah, yeah, myself is by my
Speaker:guess, but I don't know. Someone asked me once and
Speaker:I thought of Play-Doh for some reason. Like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or
Speaker:Crayola crayons or something like that. But even like— No, but it's funny though, because
Speaker:one of the most— and it's growing up where I grew up on in Washington,
Speaker:DC, but we did our, all our vacations. I spent time, a lot of time,
Speaker:my aunt's corn and soybean farm on the Chesapeake Bay. But one of
Speaker:the— and I was just back on, back on the Eastern Shore this, uh, this
Speaker:past weekend. And one thing that just over— this
Speaker:is gonna sound weird— the smell of crabs. I mean, just,
Speaker:just, you know, that there's just a very earthy kind
Speaker:of ocean, you know, the bay. It just, it all comes together and
Speaker:it's like vivid, you know. It's like, yeah, this is This is what I remember.
Speaker:It's, it's just— sounds kind of weird, but it was such
Speaker:a big, you know, setting out your crab nets, cooking the
Speaker:crab, sitting on the beach doing it. And it's just a whole
Speaker:sensory experience, and memories just flood back every time.
Speaker:But it is the smell that actually triggers it. This is a very distinct way
Speaker:that crabs have a smell that if you're from the area, it's like, yeah, this
Speaker:is what it's about, man. It's like, I'm sure if you ever— you've probably
Speaker:in passing have caught the smell of a crab and it's almost like a time
Speaker:machine. It is. No, that's exactly
Speaker:right. Unfortunately, there's a— yeah, I bought this
Speaker:seasoning called Old Bay seasoning. I tend to put on everything, which kind of
Speaker:overwhelms people. That's like, how do you— yeah. But I think it's part of it
Speaker:is that it's linked to your history, right? And to your own personal side of
Speaker:things. So yeah. Yes. I think there's an opportunity, you know, as
Speaker:the industry matures, to bring more of that in,
Speaker:to tell those stories, and to remind people that there is an
Speaker:association with— it's one of those universal things,
Speaker:like a meal at home, like time you associate it with time with
Speaker:family, and then everyone's earliest memories of some type of gathering and
Speaker:the ability to bring people together. And I think there
Speaker:is opportunities for that. Yeah, one of the good news is,
Speaker:frankly, that about 1% of the US population produces
Speaker:food, but, you know, the other 99% are putting pictures on Instagram and
Speaker:Facebook of food, right? And talking about it. So no, but it does, it's
Speaker:a great, but it's a great opportunity, frankly, because people are into it now, right?
Speaker:People are really into it. And so they're open to wanting to know more
Speaker:about it, where their food comes from, how it's produced and all that. So I
Speaker:think in the fruit and vegetables, it's a great opportunity, whether you use QR codes,
Speaker:other ways to do it, you know, to tell that story of individual products. So
Speaker:yeah. Yeah. You mentioned the blockchain and I I did fall down
Speaker:the crypto NFT rabbit hole in December. So
Speaker:I, you know, but it was interesting, this idea of like
Speaker:sourcing and like the, this eternal
Speaker:record, the ledger, like there's just tracking and how it can be applied. And
Speaker:right now it's for like, you know, the JPEGs and the artwork. And now
Speaker:musicians are learning this. But, you know, to your point, there's no reason why, you
Speaker:know, for people who are curious and concerned about where their food comes
Speaker:from, like the technology now is exists, and some of it is in
Speaker:its infancy. But there are opportunities to really give
Speaker:people that confidence that they know, because, you know, in early days, you know,
Speaker:growing up in the '70s and '80s, like, you just ate what was on
Speaker:the table and probably way too much sugar and Lucky
Speaker:Charms and Frosted Flakes and just stuff that, you know,
Speaker:you know. That's a balanced diet though, Harry. Lucky Charms and Frosted Flakes. So yeah,
Speaker:no, exactly. But, you know, my mom, I mean, I was one of 7 kids,
Speaker:right? And she was there. It was about, it was about calories. How do I,
Speaker:how do I feed 9 people? Right? And so, and, but, you know, but there
Speaker:also, the expectation wasn't there. You knew certain times of year you had certain
Speaker:things, whether it be peaches or tomatoes, whatever. You just didn't expect it other times.
Speaker:Whereas now, I mean, I tell my kids, they're spoiled. They will walk in, they
Speaker:will get whatever they want. They want it every day, which is, you know— Where's
Speaker:my kiwi? Where's my mango? Right, right. You're out of kiwi? What the heck? Right?
Speaker:But yeah, that's 40, 50, you would never even think in those terms because it
Speaker:was just a foreign concept. You just, you know, you ate what was seasonal and
Speaker:you did that. But people are looking for that same quality that they remember, but
Speaker:they want it every day of the year, which again gets you back to indoor,
Speaker:right? Yeah. How do we use indoor? And naturally what drove a lot of
Speaker:the high-quality stuff in tomato peppers, for example, going into greenhouse, a
Speaker:glasshouse, because it gives you a longer season, it gets you higher quality, and
Speaker:then vertical It's gonna— it's flowing, it's following the same route. So
Speaker:getting close to wrapping up here, I just want to bring it back full circle.
Speaker:And as you look, you know, anything 3 to 5 years is just way too
Speaker:far out now given, you know, the world we just experienced. So just next 12
Speaker:months, like, what's on the roadmap? What has you excited about what
Speaker:you have planned to unfold? Yeah, for us, I think the short term, most short
Speaker:term, is getting our site up and running. We're all really excited. It's been wonderful
Speaker:to have leased the space from Bayer to get our R&D up and going. turn
Speaker:in that key and open the door, and you will get an invitation. Don't worry,
Speaker:we're gonna open the doors. That's great, I'd love it. Oh, it'd be fun. And
Speaker:I think when you see just the different technology partners we put together
Speaker:to build this thing, it's gonna be fun to see. And I think for our
Speaker:customers, they're excited too, you know, just to see our vision for how we're gonna
Speaker:provide them the solution. So that's certainly short-term. I think the other one we're looking
Speaker:for is continue to make progress on the Innovation Partner Program, get more partners
Speaker:involved, get products flowing out to them, or get data flowing between us.
Speaker:them, which is great. But I do want to make some real progress too in
Speaker:the next 12 months on the other crops, whether it be tomato. We're looking for
Speaker:some germplasm deals to bring in some other crops because I think the industry needs
Speaker:it. I think the sector needs it. And I do think it's going to take
Speaker:a pretty concerted effort because unlike the leafies where it's
Speaker:more, I'd say, refining products and getting them to
Speaker:be successful for tomatoes, I don't think the solution's there yet. I
Speaker:just think what we want is basically the flavor you have out of a greenhouse
Speaker:or glasshouse, But in an architecture that's much more amenable toward
Speaker:producing in a vertical farm. And I think, you know, there's going to be some,
Speaker:I think, great progress. And we're looking at some collaborations to help us realize that,
Speaker:you know, that vision for where we're heading in those. So I think for those
Speaker:crops as well. So for us, it's going to be the site, customers, and then
Speaker:portfolio. I mean, that's what we want to look for for the next 12 months.
Speaker:I asked you this last time, so see if you have a different answer, but
Speaker:what's a tough question you've asked yourself recently? What could I
Speaker:have done to accelerate things more? Okay. And I think I really challenged myself
Speaker:and the board is wonderful. But we did a great exercise end of year saying,
Speaker:okay, let's really look back and say, okay, let's look forward to
Speaker:what could we have done to accelerate things? Because one of the great things, and
Speaker:I don't want to sound like we're patting ourselves on the back, but it's, we're,
Speaker:we're really, I think, a pretty unique entity. And I think
Speaker:we're serving a sector and a group of customers that really are looking for this.
Speaker:They really want the attention of a company that's going to provide them solutions
Speaker:and be 100% dedicated to that. So anything we can do to
Speaker:accelerate, heck, Harry, we've had conversations with over 35 vertical farms
Speaker:now. Wow. Everybody wants to talk, which is fun. As a startup, it's like,
Speaker:this is great, but you feel like, oh my gosh, we're gonna— you know, you
Speaker:just feel— so focusing on, you know, a subset of those in
Speaker:the short term anyway has been good. But I do think we need to
Speaker:do this. And it's not just dedicated companies like Unfold.
Speaker:I'm really— you know, people say, you really are happiest? Yeah, I am actually really
Speaker:happy to see some of the traditional seed companies taking this more seriously
Speaker:too. Yeah, because I'll be honest, I think it's been underserved, and I think there's
Speaker:been incredible advances. If you look at these farms and you
Speaker:look at the, the HVAC systems, you look at the robotic systems, you look at
Speaker:the imaging system, all the things they built into that— oh my gosh. And
Speaker:then they're just growing stuff that was developed for other purposes. Here, try it, throw
Speaker:it over the fence. It's kind of crazy. You'd never walk into a glasshouse in
Speaker:Netherlands and say, oh, here's something we developed for open field, give it a try.
Speaker:They'd say, here's the door, right? There's no way in heck. Vertical farms, I tell
Speaker:you, you have to have the same standards. You should demand that this is
Speaker:stuff that's being developed for you. So there's no question the demand is
Speaker:there. We're going to do it, I think, as a 100% entity. I think
Speaker:the traditional seed companies you're seeing adapting as well, and that's really cool
Speaker:too because they're actually now putting together programs, taking this, you
Speaker:know, with the serious nature it deserves, frankly. Yeah, it's interesting
Speaker:because they're probably watching from the sidelines for a while, just seeing where the industry
Speaker:was headed and then realizing like that they do have something to
Speaker:contribute. They do have a lot of R&D, historical R&D and work
Speaker:that they've put in the space and then just deciding that it's important for them
Speaker:to play a role in the future of vertical farming and with their experience as
Speaker:well. What's an ask you have of my audience? Oh, I just, you know, for
Speaker:me, it's just keep the conversation going, you know, because I think what's cool about
Speaker:your audience, it's you're drawing people from all over, not just people in the industry,
Speaker:but people that are interested in the industry. I'd say, give us a chance, but
Speaker:also keep us— hold our feet to the fire on
Speaker:not veering into the hype and the hyperbole and being real about
Speaker:it. When I hear— I don't want— not to be smart, but I heard somebody
Speaker:at one of these conferences, they asked him what crops would be potential, and they
Speaker:said corn and soybean. I said, no, don't go there.
Speaker:Yeah. We're not putting 200 million acres of corn and soybean
Speaker:in a warehouse, right? And don't go there. And so I
Speaker:think one of the things that I'd ask anybody to be discriminating about is, Cut
Speaker:through the hype, ask real questions about, and hold us to the
Speaker:standards you hold for any other producer. You know, whether it be the greenhouses
Speaker:in Canada, the glasshouses in Netherlands, the open field growers
Speaker:in Salinas Valley, you should expect just as high quality and
Speaker:making real efforts to get the price point, the cost of goods to a
Speaker:point where it's accessible. Because that's the other thing, you have great stuff, but
Speaker:if it's not accessible to people, what are you doing, right? So Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, becomes something that like folks with disposable
Speaker:income or, you know, fancy meal folks like are
Speaker:the ones that can enjoy this. And that actually is,
Speaker:you know, doesn't speak to the potential of what vertical farming
Speaker:can be in terms of democratizing access to
Speaker:fresh food. And I think driving down that price point without sacrificing
Speaker:quality, I think is going to be like the The crucial
Speaker:juncture for folks to get right as we move forward. No, and I agree. And
Speaker:I do think this is where actually the genetics can help too. We have
Speaker:conversations about where are your costs, right? A lot of times it's energy.
Speaker:Okay, can we get you a crop that has more yield? Can we get you
Speaker:a crop that develops faster? Let's say you harvest in 25 days
Speaker:and 27, well, that's 2 days you're shaving off. Can we get you a crop
Speaker:that uses less light or converts biomass to light more efficiently?
Speaker:Those are all things going to help you, the grower, on your COGS. And so
Speaker:those are very real conversations while also focusing on the kind of top line, the
Speaker:differentiated product, the newer stuff that helps them, uh, you know,
Speaker:provide a great product for consumers. But you got to address the COGS
Speaker:piece because, you know, who wants to be— you know, there are lots of
Speaker:elitist industries. I'm not an elitist kind of guy. It's just
Speaker:like, you know, for me, let's make this a significant piece of where people get
Speaker:their food. And that's a victory for us all. Yeah, we can have a separate
Speaker:conversation of the folks developing the vertical farming for the space station.
Speaker:You know what, I just gave a talk to, uh, there's a joint group between
Speaker:NASA and USDA, and I gave a talk to great interactions. And
Speaker:you see NASA people actually at some of the vertical farm conferences. It's really cool.
Speaker:But, you know, a lot— there's a lot of things technologies developed for space play
Speaker:on Earth too. And so there's a great opportunity
Speaker:though, because If we're gonna, you know, hopefully we won't screw up this planet so
Speaker:bad we have to do it, but if we're gonna head out to space anyway,
Speaker:you know, let's, uh, they're gonna need ways to produce food and vertical fits beautifully
Speaker:in that. Totally. Great group at USDA and NASA working on this. Great
Speaker:scientists. I had a ball having interaction with them. So yeah, very
Speaker:cool. Well, John, always a pleasure to get caught up with you and, uh, just
Speaker:hear, it's really exciting to have these conversations, to hear the potential, just, you
Speaker:know, it's as the industry matures, as our audience learns more, as I learn more
Speaker:as more developments happen in that space. I think it's really exciting, and there's
Speaker:no shortage of channels that we need to get this message out, to
Speaker:educate people that are new to industry, that are veterans from other
Speaker:industries that come in with preconceived notions of, of what, you know, they
Speaker:can or can't contribute to this industry. And I think just having that open conversation,
Speaker:what you're doing with the partner program, I think is an important first step. And
Speaker:it's almost like this idea of like R&D as a service, where you're allowing people
Speaker:to share. And, and there is an opportunity to have part of this
Speaker:research that's available for the benefit to grow the industry, which I, which
Speaker:I think is admirable, and I really applaud you for doing that. Oh, thank you,
Speaker:sir. Harry, always great seeing you. I really appreciate what you're doing too, because getting
Speaker:the word out and having the right conversations, it's a critical piece for the success
Speaker:of the industry. So thanks for all you do. Yeah, so unfold.ag for
Speaker:folks to learn more. Any other place you want to direct folks, or is that
Speaker:the best? Oh, you can always hit me on LinkedIn. Okay, we do a lot
Speaker:on LinkedIn. It's a place to— everybody's connected there, so it's awesome. Okay, I
Speaker:appreciate your time again, John. Thank you, Harry. Appreciate it too. Thanks to John for
Speaker:coming on the show and sharing his stories. As always, full show notes are available
Speaker:at verticalfarmingpodcast.com. You'll find a recap of the episode,
Speaker:timestamps, any resources mentioned, and some quotes from the
Speaker:episode that you can share on social media, because I'm sure that's what you do
Speaker:every time you listen to one of these episodes, isn't it? If it isn't, you
Speaker:should probably do that. Special thanks to our season 5 title sponsor,
Speaker:Cultivatd. If you are looking for a vertical farm and don't know where to start
Speaker:or which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today. Best of all,
Speaker:their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners. Learn more at
Speaker:cultivatd.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.
Speaker:Just leave out that last E. Podcast production and marketing provided by
Speaker:Fullcast. If you're interested in learning how a podcast would be
Speaker:beneficial for you or You can learn more at
Speaker:fullcast.co. As a reminder, if you are enjoying this
Speaker:show, leave us a rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp, and
Speaker:we'll be sure to read these out on future episodes.
Speaker:Tune in next week for a conversation with another fascinating
Speaker:leader in the world of vertical farming. This time it's someone who's been in the
Speaker:space for a while supporting the fresh produce
Speaker:industry, Bonnie Estes. Hi, Bonnie. It's going to be a really great conversation.
Speaker:Make sure you check that out. Until we meet again next episode, here's
Speaker:to your health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show
Speaker:notes for this episode, which includes any links mentioned in the
Speaker:episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit
Speaker:verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign
Speaker:up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.
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