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Episode 411 - More of Our Biased Commentary on Various Issues
12th December 2023 • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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In this episode we discuss:

(00:00) 411

(00:42) Intro

(05:16) Annastacia Palaszczuk

(11:54) Federal Labor Failing

(17:46) Patrons

(19:50) Terry Young

(25:36) Subs and AI

(31:35) Generational Divide

(33:01) Immigration

(35:23) Kissinger

(42:11) Covid Data

(47:38) Identity Trap Feedback

(54:57) New Zealand Rejects Race Laws

(01:10:34) Conclusion

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We have a website. www.ironfistvelvetglove.com.au

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcripts

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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

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But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that

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gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the

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current events of their city, their country, and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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We're back, episode 411, the last episode for 2023.

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We'll get this one done and then we'll have a little break.

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I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.

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Coming in loud and clear from regional Queensland, Scott the Velvet Glove.

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G'day Trevor, g'day Joe, g'day listeners.

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It's a little bit wet up here because of the cyclone that

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is bearing down on Cairns.

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They're expecting it to cross the coast tomorrow at 1pm.

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In which case the rain will continue probably through

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until the end of Thursday.

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And Joe's in the UK, so you'd know all about rain, Joe.

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Oh yeah, it's barely stopped since I've been here.

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Hmm.

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Tell the listener about sewerage system you were talking about earlier.

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Yeah, so as far as I know, they don't generally have storm drains

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here, so the water just goes straight into the sewerage system.

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And it just isn't built for the volume of rain that they're getting these days.

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And so they're getting more and more floods, flash flooding.

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Yep.

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Also the amount of building, which means less soil to soak up the rain.

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Yep.

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More runoff into the drains.

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Yep.

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More runoff, modern farming practices, tractors compact the soil.

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Basically, they're getting more and more runoff in places of

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flooding that never used to flood.

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And the sewage system would be failing because it's full of stormwater.

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Yeah, the sewage system backs up and there are sewage releases.

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Crazy.

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And of course it's all, it's all privatised.

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So of course they've got no incentive to improve it.

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Yeah, sounds awful and smelly.

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So anyway, here in Brisbane, it's lovely and sunny.

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So anyway, if you're in the chat room, say hello.

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Landon is in the chat room.

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Coming in loud and clear from China, was Landon in China?

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Beijing, okay.

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He's in Beijing, but he's also, I think he's heading down

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to Thailand for his holiday.

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So I couldn't tell you I understand he's still in Beijing right now, but he could

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be down in Chiang Mai, I don't know.

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No doubt he'll tell us in the chat.

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And Watley, coming in loud and clear from, I think, is it Tenterfield?

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I think, Watley.

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Might be your area, or I think that's it.

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Anyway, if you're in the chat room or you come into the chat room,

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say hello and make some comments.

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We'll try to incorporate them if we can.

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Often that's difficult, but hey, just make some jokes amongst yourself there.

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Armadale is Swatly, that's right.

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He's the international man of mystery.

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Armadale o.

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Given this is the last episode of the year, we can be a

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little indulgent on this one.

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Did I ever tell you about the coldest night of my life,

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which was spent in Armadale?

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Did I ever tell you that story?

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No.

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So, my wife and I were driving to Sydney, and her brother in law said,

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Oh, you can stop at Armadale on the way.

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His mother had moved into a nursing home and her home in Armidale was vacant, so

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on the way down we could just call in, sleep overnight and then keep going.

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Free accommodation.

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We said, beauty!

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Anyway, we got into Armidale and it was bitterly cold.

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It was freezing and this house had been unoccupied for months, so it

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hadn't had any heating and it was as cold inside as it was outside.

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And anyway, it's late, it's dark, we get a quick look in the bedroom and

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there's an electric blanket on the bed.

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I said to my wife, fantastic, fire that up and we'll be fine.

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Anyway, that night, I'm tossing and turning and couldn't sleep

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because I was just still cold.

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And in the morning eventually, you know, the sun rises and my wife wakes up and

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I said, oh, that was a terrible night.

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Like, that was awful.

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It was so cold.

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And she said, it was perfectly fine.

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I lean over and put my arm around her.

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She's as warm as toast.

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And it struck me.

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It was one of those electric blankets that had a dual So she only heated up her

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side of the bed with the electric blanket.

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She was as warm as toast and I froze my butt off and we were in the same bed.

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See Trevor, you should have snuggled more.

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That's the point.

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That is the point.

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So there's a lesson for you, dear listener.

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The coldest night of my life was in Armidale in a bed

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with an electric blanket.

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Here we go.

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It does seem very cold.

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Yeah.

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All right, that was a diversion.

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Scott, we've got a new premier in Queensland all of a

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sudden, Anastasia Palaszczuk.

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Resigned, Stephen Myles has got the gig, and what are your thoughts on that?

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Well, I'm pleased she finally stepped down rather than actually

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howling out to the very bitter end.

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It clearly has boosted Labor's chances in the state poll.

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Mm.

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It's one of those things, I don't fully understand why the public turns on leaders

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after a number of years, because she has been in that job since 2012, hasn't she?

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Yeah, 2012.

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You know, it's been a long time.

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And she was just the, she was always referred to as the accidental premier

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who, got the gig after the Labor Party was reduced to seven or eight or something

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rather MPs, was an incredibly low number and she only got the gig because there was

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no one else left standing, so she got it.

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It's one of those things, now she has been quite a good Premier though, she

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has got a number of things up that were Very divisive for a number of years.

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She got abortion law reform through.

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She got voluntarists dying through.

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She got everything You know, she got through a couple of good things

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that you can really point to in that type of thing, you know She

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did okay during COVID pandemic.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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She did.

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She's picked up a boyfriend in recent times Yeah.

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And that's the better half is Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The better half reckons that she's gone off the boil because of the

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boyfriend, so I have to wait.

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I reckon there'd be something in that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Because she was enjoying her time, I think.

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Yeah.

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Whereas previously it was just work, work, work, work.

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Yeah.

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I actually know him.

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I used to play frisbee.

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Yeah, I used to play ultimate disc frisbee in this pickup game in the park,

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and he was one of the players there.

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So, there we go.

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Small world, Brisbane, dear listener.

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It is, yeah.

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Anyway, I'm not sure Stephen Myles is the right man for the job, but you

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know, it's one of those things, it appears to be a factional deal because

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they're both from the same faction, so.

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I remember speaking to somebody who has some connections in

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the Labour Party, I won't say.

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Her name, but I said, you know, Stephen Miles appears really stiff and, um,

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almost robotic in his speeches in front of the camera, but apparently in real

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life, in person, he's quite charming and personable and, and it, the strange sort

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of robotic delivery comes in when he's in front of the camera, but when he's

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not, he's quite a charming, intelligent.

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Sort of character.

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So there you go.

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I'm sure he'll get used to it.

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Yeah.

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Well, he's used to it I think it's just a sort of a training or a mode he goes

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into Right, but I was hopeful that this might lead to a change in the religious

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instruction laws Because apparently when he is asked about religious instruction,

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he kind of rolls his eyes indicating That he thinks it's a heap of rubbish.

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And so You've given the game away here.

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So Have you now, have you now opened him up as a target for the

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Australian theocratic fascist lobby?

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Maybe I have.

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So I certainly wanted him rather than Cameron Dick, who I think is

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quite right wing and religious.

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The other one, Shannon Fentonham, Fentaman, would have

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been okay as well, I think.

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But anyway, the problem is, that it turns out that Well, those three were

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all from the left faction, but Cameron Dick was from the right faction, so Yeah.

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The problem is that one of the big players in this, in assisting

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him getting in, was Grace Grace.

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And so he's going to, he's going to owe her.

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And I don't know if it's Grace Grace who was hanging on to Ri or

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whether it was Anastasia Palaszczuk.

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So, it's hard to know.

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One of those two women were, one of those two women were behind that.

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Yes.

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So, if it was one you knew, you began to know.

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Given Grace Grace's comments, I would suggest that she was certainly for it.

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You'd think so.

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Because you not remember with the Satanist thing.

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Yeah, she went overboard, didn't she?

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She did.

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It was beyond what was necessary to defend a policy.

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It wasn't, I've been versed into this position by my leadership.

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Yeah.

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No.

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Yeah.

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True.

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It really wouldn't surprise me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, initially when I heard Stephen Miles, I thought, great.

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R.

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I.

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might be in the firing line, and then when I heard Grace Grace was one of

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the key players that got him in, I was like, whoops, maybe not so good, so,

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we'll see what happens with that one.

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We'll just have to wait and see about that, because which

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faction is Grace Grace from?

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Is she from the right or left faction?

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She's from the Old Guard, and she helped Miles, who's in the left faction, so

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she rounded up the Old Guard faction and got them to swing behind Miles.

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So, so yeah, that's how that worked, I believe.

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Yeah, it's one of those things, you just gotta wonder how long those

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loyalties and everything last.

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If he, if he, if he gets a solid election victory under his belt and that sort of

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thing, if he actually improves the Labor Party position in the next parliament,

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which under Palaszczuk wasn't looking all that possible, now it could be possible.

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If he gets, if he gets a reasonable election victory and that sort of

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stuff under his belt, then he might be able to turn around and say, well, R.

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I.

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's got to go.

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In which case, if Grace Grace was actually saying, well, I'll pull

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the backing from them, then the rest of the rest of them might actually

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turn around and say, no, fuck you.

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He's done a good job for us.

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Promote her in some different ministry.

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She could probably have a pick of what she wants to do.

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So, that might, if it gets her out of education and somebody else in, they

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could approach it with a fresh set of eyes and do whatever they want to, maybe.

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So, yeah.

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We'll see how that all pans out.

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Who knows?

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You know, none of this has anything to do with The merits of the case and

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whether it's a good idea to get rid of R.

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I.

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It's all to do with power plays and factional dealings.

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It's factional politics.

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Yeah.

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All the good arguments in the world are meaningless.

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It's just who owes who a favour and who happens to be in a certain

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position at a certain time.

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Yeah.

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Quickly on to Federal Labor.

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There was an article in Crikey, By Guy Rundle, just sort of suggesting that

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Labor's deserted the working man and looking at things that Federal Labor has

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done which is good, um, comprehensive Labor law reform, there's a lot of laws

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passed in relation to Like gig workers, treating them the same as normal workers

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and some other good stuff there, which we haven't really got into detail about.

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Because I haven't really come across any articles that explain it quite well.

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So, I'll try and hunt some down.

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The Americans weren't like that.

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The Americans Treating gig workers as human beings.

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Yes.

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They weren't like that.

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So that's one thing this government's done.

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And they did provide some housing assistance, but it took the Greens

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to beef that up into something more meaningful in the short term.

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And, and they supported the minimum wage wise in the Fair Work Commission.

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That's about it.

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On the negative side Still haven't done anything about it at all.

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They keep going with Stage 3 tax cuts.

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Commitment to AUKUS.

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Don't seem to be doing much on the environment.

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And seem to be supporting Israel rather than, in preference to the

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Palestinians, rather than saying there's a lot of fault on both sides here.

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So I think that that was probably just a little bit overdone because Penny Wong

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did actually say Israel has the right to defend themselves, but it's the way

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in which they defend themselves that they've actually got to be careful of.

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So I think she was actually saying you can, you know, you've got to actually

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watch what you do and that sort of thing.

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You've got to be careful that you're not killing as many civilians as you

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are, but she didn't actually say it.

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Yeah.

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She could have said, this is wrong, this genocidal campaign

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you've got going on here.

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You're just going too far.

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It's just terrible.

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What's going on there?

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Yeah, I suppose you're right there.

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It's just you know, Israel's not an ally or anything like that of Australia.

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It's, they are just basically on the same Israel is not an ally of anybody.

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No, I know that.

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They're in Israel for Israel's sake.

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But even if they were

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Yeah, I know.

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You should be able to be critical of your friends.

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And it looks like they are not as critical as Trevor wants them to be.

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And I also think to myself they probably could be a little more

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critical than what they have been.

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Well, Anthony Albanese, the younger 20 year old version, would have been far more

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critical than the 60 year old version.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah.

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He would have been.

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It's just one of those things you've, you've got to accept with

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the sweet passage of time you do mellow somewhat in your thinking

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and People become more conservative.

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Yeah, they do.

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Absolutely, they do.

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I know some Jews who have been saying how much that they feel

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that Israel has lost its way.

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The Israel of the 1960s, the 1970s is not the Israel of the 2000s.

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Oh, I agree wholeheartedly with that.

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You know, it's just one of those things.

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Israel, you know, used to be, it used to be quite a good

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country, that sort of thing.

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It stood the rule of law and all that type of thing.

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It did actually stand up for itself and it did actually put them Well

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and truly back in their place.

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But, with this recent Netanyahu government, you've actually got to be

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really concerned about them because, you know, it wasn't all that long

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ago that the streets of Tel Aviv were packed with people that are out there

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protesting against their government.

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Mm.

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Yeah.

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Mm.

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Where is the Israeli power?

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Is that in Tel Aviv or is that in Jerusalem?

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I would assume Tel Aviv.

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Yeah.

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Don't know.

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Here's another test for Labor.

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So there's a Productivity Commission report and it's come out and has

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made a recommendation to remove financial reporting exemptions given

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to thousands of religious charities.

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So most charities are required to provide financial information and

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basically the bigger you are, the more information you have to give.

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And of course, religions have a certain type of privilege where

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they're exempted from a lot of this.

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So, basic religious charities is a term that's there and They have

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lower reporting requirements, and there's Productivity Commission has

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come out and said nope, should get rid of that religious exemption.

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There's a test of secularism for the federal Labor government to see whether

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they can come through with that.

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You reckon they will, Scott or Joe?

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Do you think they'll actually follow the recommendation?

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One would hope they're going to use that as cover for themselves and say, well, the

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Productivity Commission has required this, so we're going to go ahead and do it.

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whAt I would have thought would be a bigger test of Labor's commitment

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to secularism would be the religious persecution legislation, which they have

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actually talked about bringing back.

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Yes.

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But allowing the religious people to persecute others.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, because they wouldn't be able to throw rocks at people like me and

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call me a D and everything else, but they don't want anyone to throw rocks

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at them for being kitty fiddlers.

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Hmm.

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Hmm.

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We'll see.

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Anyway, that would be an easy one, I would have thought, to follow the

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productivity Commission's recommendation, but I don't hold out a lot of hope.

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We'll see what happens.

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Look, end of year, haven't mentioned them for a while.

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Before I forget, a big thank you to the patrons of this podcast.

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Recently, Yam Yam Blue upgraded.

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Thank you, Yam Yam.

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So if you are a patron, you can always upgrade.

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And I'll just quickly run through from the newest to the oldest

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big thanks our 2023 new Patrons, Paige and Damien Van Schneidle.

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From 2022 we've still got Danny, Obrad, Anti US Sentiment and Mark Lavelle.

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From 2021, we've still got Tom, Rico, Greg P, and Shannon.

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From 2020, we've still got Matt, Dwyer, Sue Cripp, James, who's in the chat

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room, hello James Branwyn, Wayne, Virgil, Craig Bull, Shane, Ingram, YamYamBlue.

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You started with us on the 5th of March, yam yam, 2020.

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Zambuck, Lloydberg, and David Copley.

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From 2019, we've still got John from Die Straights, who is in the chat room.

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That's John Sammons.

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Camille, Tom Doolan, Paul Waper, Alexander, Alan, Matthew, Craig S,

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Glenn Bell, Professor, Dr Dentist, Murray Waper, and Andy Dowling.

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From Still With Us, from 2018, Peter Gillespie, Gavin Ess, Daniel Curtin,

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Liam McMahon, Dominic DeMasi, Maddock Mann, Cain Birch, Jimmy Spuds back

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with us, Tony Wall and Steve Shinners.

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From 2017, still with us is Alison, Ayame and Craig Gillespie and The oldest and

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only survivor from 2016, Janelle Louise.

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Some people choose to do it by PayPal, which is Mr T and Anne Reid and Dave

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S from Cairns and Noel Hamilton.

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If your name was missed and you think it shouldn't be, it would be because your

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credit card's probably expired, hop back on and renew it, that'd be good, but

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thank you to everybody who helps out, much appreciated, some of you have been with

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us a long, long time, so, that's great.

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Alright I think we are coming up to Christmas.

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I thought I'd give you a Christmas message.

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This one is from one of our federal politicians.

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Terry Young, Liberal National Party, and he's got a lovely message for

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us, with a bit of luck, here it is.

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As this is the last full sitting week before we break for Christmas, I

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thought it appropriate that I take the opportunity to deliver a Merry Christmas

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message to my electorate of Longman.

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As I have stated, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.

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Why does the birth of one baby in a small town in the Middle East, in a

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town called Bethlehem, warrant such a celebration over 2, 000 years later?

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Jesus existence and life is, of course, well documented, not just by Jews

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and Christians, but by historians, whether they hold a faith or not.

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But again, I ask the question, why all the controversy?

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Of course, this is because of who Jesus claimed to be, which according

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to those of the Christian faith, It has never been, and never should be, any

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government's mandate to tell citizens what they should believe in, especially

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when it comes to matters of faith.

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However, for many years, Australia was a nation based

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on Judeo Christian principles.

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As many have said, whether you have a faith or not, the

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Christian principles work.

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Christian values such as keeping your word, paying your taxes,

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being generous with your fellow man, not judging others, helping

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those less fortunate than yourself.

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Paying workers a fair wage for a fair day's work, and environmental

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stewardship, just to name a few.

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But with the slide of the Christian faith in our society, as evidenced in

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the recent census, where for the first time there are less people who say they

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are of the Christian faith than are not.

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We have seen the effects of a society that doesn't have A common value

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set and people are left to make up their own individual values.

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We can directly correlate the decline of the Christian faith in our country

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to increases in domestic violence, the breakdown of the family unit, drug

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use, crime rates, basically anarchy.

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But probably the most negative effect of this change, which is the

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underlying cause of the increases in the issues I just mentioned before,

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which is a society would become more inward looking than outward looking.

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In other words, all self absorbed.

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Perhaps this Christmas, we could ponder and reflect on this, and

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consider others before ourselves, and consider this man Jesus, who he

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claimed to be and what he taught.

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A man after whom even our history's timeline is measured.

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There you go, that's in our Federal Parliament, that's

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the calibre of discussion.

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It all started to fall apart at the point where he said, Jesus is well documented.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And everything from that point on just fell over.

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Yeah, that was the one.

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That was, strangely enough, one of the things that got me the most as well.

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Yeah.

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I cannot believe that someone would actually say Australia Judeo Christian.

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It's one of those things, it's not a, it's not even a real term, as I understand it.

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I think you did actually expose on that, didn't you, at some stage, Trevor?

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There was some discussion of a Judeo Christian not being a real term.

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It's one of those things, it's that it's clear that the Right wing Christian

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nutters have overtaken the LNP, but then their talking points seem to be

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coming direct from Fox News in the U.

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S.

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Mm, the term, the expression Judeo Christian we did, it like, it doesn't

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appear in Hansard until around 1980 or something like that and then just

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gradually, I think Howard, well Howard's probably before 1980 was, anyway,

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during the Howard era, he was big on pushing this idea of Judeo Christian

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and it, It came to be accepted as a common sort of expression but it never

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existed prior to 1970 in Hansard.

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It hadn't been mentioned at all.

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It's an American idea because the Jewish lobby is powerful in America.

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Yes.

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And so it was an acceptance of Judaism rather than the pogroms that they'd

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done for the last 2, 000 years.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And I think it was to sort of also avoid claims of anti

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Semitism at the time as well, so.

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Probably.

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Yeah, so, just what a load of Imagine, you've got a chance

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to speak in Parliament, and that's the best you can do.

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For goodness sake.

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Yeah, that was a load of shit, wasn't it?

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Mmm.

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Hey, can you imagine If an atheist stood up and said, of course, all

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that's wrong with society is the religious nutters, and, you know,

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society has proved ever since less and less people believe in religion.

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Ah.

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One of the things I found most disturbing that he listed amongst the

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whole evidence of sly and that sort of stuff was marriage breakdowns.

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And I thought to myself, yeah, okay, so you want everything

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back in the 1960s, do you?

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You have to prove that someone did something wrong to you so you can go out

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there and actually attack them and that sort of stuff and get an at fault divorce.

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You know, it's just all garbage, wasn't it?

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And then have the social stigma to deal with.

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Even when it was legal, you still didn't want to get divorced.

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I know that.

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Anyway, that's some of the fine minds we've got operating in our

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federal government at the moment.

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Same group of people.

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Well, thankfully, they're in a federal position, but anyway.

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Same group of people responsible for our submarine disaster.

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And yes, dear listener, we've got a little submarine article here.

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This one have a listen to this.

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Artificial intelligence, AI, drones, and deep space radar are among the

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technologies that will be used by Australia and its AUKUS allies.

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To counter China's aggression in the Pacific, Australia's Defence

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Minister, Richard Marles, met with his counterparts from the United

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States and the UK to announce the second pillar of the AUKUS deal.

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First pillar being subs themselves.

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And it goes on, While Australia's planned acquisition of nuclear powered submarines

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has been the main focus, the second pillar focuses on advanced technologies.

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AI technology will be used on systems.

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including on the Poseidon aircraft, to process information from

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sonoboys which detect and transmit underwater data, to improve our

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anti submarine warfare capabilities, according to a joint statement.

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I don't know about you, but when Our Defence Minister starts announcing that

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AI is going to have the capacity to really improve our, our anti submarine capacity,

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anti submarine warfare capabilities.

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Do you think to yourself, gee, I wonder if the Chinese will be any good at

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developing AI and to do exactly the same to 368 billion worth of AI Submarines?

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Oh, exactly.

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It'll be like the chatbot.

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It'll give you false indications of activity with a high

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probability of assurance.

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I'm quite sceptical of the capacity of AI, but, you know,

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I'm open to being Persuaded.

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But if you accept that it's true, then you have to accept that the other

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side will be doing the same thing, and perhaps you shouldn't be putting

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all the eggs in the mud basket.

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Exactly, and they will be developing countermeasures and all that sort of stuff

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to defend their own fleet against it.

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Indeed.

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So I just think it's a load of nonsense.

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What do you think of AI generally?

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Sorry, Scott, go on.

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The whole Sabre rattling over China is getting out of hand.

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Because you once used to say it was just on the Coalition side.

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Now it's getting out of there and to the Labor side.

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You know, it's One of those things that is getting out of hand and I think to myself,

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you know, I know you and I disagree over Taiwan, but it's one of those things I

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think we should use our position as a good friend of China and a good friend of the

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United States to get them to talk about Taiwan and actually get into the Taiwanese

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ears and actually say, well, if you agree to give up If you agree to give up your

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claims out of the South China Sea, you agree to give up any historic claims to

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any part of China, then we might be able to get you moving towards some sort of

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diplomatic recognition on the other side.

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Because it's, it's one of those things, it's is for all intents

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and purposes its own country.

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Now I know it's, I know it's still technically part of China and that sort

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of stuff, but It doesn't look like that.

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It's got its own currency.

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It's got its own way of doing things.

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It is basically its own country now, and it has developed.

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It has evolved from a military dictatorship under the Kuomintang,

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which was headed by Chiang Kai shek.

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That was a military dictatorship there.

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It was a dictatorship for a very long time, and it wasn't only until the

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old timers and that sort of stuff voted them out in their parliament.

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But they have evolved into a democracy now.

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And I honestly don't believe that they would be particularly happy with having

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to live under Chinese rule because they don't want the facial recognition

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cameras and all that sort of stuff set up exactly the way have to in China.

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Anyway, democracy's over democracy's overrated Scott.

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But, but anyway.

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Joe, Joe AI as our resident tech guy.

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What are your thoughts of artificial intelligence?

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Because it's sort of the flavour of the month in the sort of podcasting

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world that I listen to, which is all about how to make and promote and do

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podcasting and I keep saying AI is going to change all of these things.

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You got any thoughts on AI?

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It's, it's a wooly term.

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It's been around for a long time.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. And it's always been just around the corner.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. The, the current flavor is large language models, which effectively use

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past history to predict the future.

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Mm-Hmm.

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, and, and it's quite good at doing certain things.

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So if you want to generate a wall of text that sounds reasonable.

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It's great if you want factual information.

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Yeah.

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It's fairly hit and miss.

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Mm.

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And again, with the, the painting, it takes previous paintings and is able

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to predict what a painting that you ask it to look like would look like.

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Mm-Hmm.

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And then it adds and subtracts or subtracts from random noise, actually.

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Mm-Hmm.

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until it gets the painting that it, it envisages.

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Yep.

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It, it's a tool unlike any other tool.

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It will have some advantages, but I don't think it's the panacea

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that everyone keeps growing about.

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Right.

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So reading between the lines, it's being a bit oversold at the moment.

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Oh absolutely, as is most new technology.

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Good to know, Joe the tech guy.

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All right we've often spoken about, uh, the generational divide in our

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voting and that, well, you mentioned earlier just now, Scott, how people get

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more conservative as they get older.

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And, but it's becoming really pronounced here in Australia, but in the UK, I

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came across this article talking about a YouGov opinion poll data from 2018, and

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what they were looking at was how people voted if you're over the age of if only

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people over 65 were allowed to vote, the Labor Party would be all but wiped out.

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This is based on 2018 data, whereas if only Britain's under 25s MPs whatsoever.

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So, let me just show you on the screen what it would look like in terms of the

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difference under 25s versus Over 65s.

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And it's such a dramatic voting pattern based on age.

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So, that's happening all over the world, and that was just a representation

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of what's happening in the UK.

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I haven't seen anything similar for Australia.

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I'd be interested to see if there's data like that for Australia.

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Hmm.

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Hmm.

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There we go.

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That's that one.

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Not a lot to say, except hmm.

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And another one here, just, we've been talking about

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immigration and housing lately.

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And there's lots of talk about the increase in immigration numbers.

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And there's a chart on the screen that is showing you the immigration

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numbers, um, produced by the Guardian, sources the Australian

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Bureau of Statistics, and obviously negative during the COVID pandemic,

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and largely a big increase since.

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Effectively, the argument in the article is that despite the huge

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boom in recent years in immigration, you've got to remember there was

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a huge decrease during COVID.

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So our current immigration level is pretty much what was expected say back in 2018,

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looking forward where we would have had in terms of immigration over the next,

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I'm curious as to what happened in COVID, did people actually leave, or was this

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citizens who couldn't get back, or?

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Well, people did leave, like all those foreign students left.

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Back to China?

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But were, yeah, but they weren't citizens, were they?

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No, but that's part of our immigration on temporary visas.

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Yeah, it's one of those things, you've actually got to look at it as a whole lot.

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And the immigrants were a total group in the, in the, as part of

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our population, and a number of them did leave during COVID, because they

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wanted to be back home and that type of thing, where they've I don't know,

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they probably possibly felt safer and that sort of stuff being at home.

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Well, they weren't getting any assistance here.

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We were just leaving people in the lurch and saying, if you can't

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get back to your own country, well, we're not going to help you.

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So people had to make it back.

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Anyway, so, so yeah, that was that one.

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And, and sort of blaming high immigration for our current housing crisis.

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is ignoring that fact that we're pretty much at the immigration level we

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should have been, um, or what we were expecting it to be prior to the pandemic.

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And so it's complicated.

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There's all sorts of factors going in there.

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Right.

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Henry Kissinger.

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He died.

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Any thoughts on Henry Kissinger?

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Is it rest in peace or good riddance, Scott or Jane?

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I think it's a bit of good riddance, you know, because if you look at what

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he actually was involved in and that sort of stuff, Southeast Asia is a Hell

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of a, has got a hell of a lot fewer citizens because of Kissinger's behavior.

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Mm-Hmm.

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You know, he was the one behind the bombing campaign.

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It in Cambodia.

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He really did fuck that country up very badly.

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Mm-Hmm.

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You know, it, it's one of those things like, you know, they reckon

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that the Kah Rous was a, a direct result of the US bombing campaign.

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Well, that wouldn't surprise me.

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Mm-Hmm.

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And then, you know, the assistance for Cambodia or.

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Kampuchea, as it was called then, was from Vietnam, and because they got their,

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because they got their help from the wrong side of the Cold War, the Yanks turned

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around and said, no, you can't have that.

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So they poured military aid and that sort of stuff into

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the hands of the Khmer Rouge.

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Well, Jesus Christ, you know, that was ridiculous.

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And clearly Kissinger's fingerprints were all over that.

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And years afterwards, when the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge were well known.

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America was still recognising the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate

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government in Cambridgeshire.

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Yeah.

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So, so he was secretary of state and national security advisor to

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both President Nixon and President Ford from 69 to 77, but he was this

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informal advisor to lots of presidents, including Reagan and Clinton.

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The two bushes and Donald Trump, a notable exception to Kissinger's influence in

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Washington was the Carter administration.

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And you know, not, not only was it filthy foreigners that got killed by him.

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mm-Hmm.

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It was alleged that during the Paris Peace Talks where a piece was on the cards.

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Apparently he said, no, no if, if you don't sign up to this peace accord, you'll

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get a bit better deal in the future so that he could win the election or rather

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his president could win the election.

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Correct.

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This is in terms of the Vietnam War.

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Yes.

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And extending the Vietnam War.

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Yes.

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Quite clear evidence that he was Costing thousands of American lives.

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Yes.

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According to this article from the Young Menagerie blog, I think

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it was, kissinger's record as a warmonger is bloody indeed,

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includes encouraging Indonesia's President Suharto to kill up to 1.

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2 million alleged communists in purges he advocated the illegal carpet bombing in

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Cambodia, um, advised Pakistan's President to crush an aspiring political movement.

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Seeking autonomy for East Pakistan, he encouraged Cejado to invade East

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Timor, giving the green light to a neo fascist military junta to overthrow

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Argentina's Isabel Perón, and schemed with a cabal of Latin American neo

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fascist dictators to assassinate their political foes in Operation Condor.

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Famously said about Chile, you know, there's no way the United States are going

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to put up with a bunch of communists.

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I'm going to do something about it.

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So, got rid of TND.

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TND.

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He openly called for the invasion of Iraq, supported the invasion of Afghanistan,

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and on the good side, Kissinger wanted to normalise relations with China.

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So if you wanted to say something positive about him.

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He was involved in the normalization of relations with China.

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I think that was inevitable because China was such a large country that

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it was, it was going to, it was going to throw off the shackles of poverty

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and that sort of stuff eventually.

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Something that was that big, you couldn't keep down forever.

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It was going to grow, and with growth comes economic growth, and then they were

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going to end up being what they are today.

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So I honestly believe that it would have been very foolish for the Yanks not to

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get on board with that, because that would have just, it would have made them

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look ridiculous if they were, if they were trying to ignore the legitimate

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government of the People's Republic of China, and saying, well, you're not really

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the legitimate government, the legitimate government is the Republic of China.

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You know, it's one of those things I just think Funnily enough,

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China was kind of like the buggy man it is today, in a sense.

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But, Yeah, it was, it was.

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Because, you know, they got involved, they got involved in that war between

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the North and the South of North and South Korea and that sort of stuff.

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And they took the Yanks to the brink of defeat.

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But the Yanks actually held their line and that sort of stuff.

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And they ended up settling over the 38th parallel.

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Anyway, Gough Whitlam.

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Independently reopened relations between Australia and China and would it have

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been Billy McMahon was the liberal leader at the time basically accused Whitlam of

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being a foolish commie sympathiser and then unbeknownst to them Kissinger was

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smoothing the way for Nixon to appear and go over there and smooth relations and

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the Liberal Party looked like a bunch of idiots because they were criticising Goff.

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And then, within 12 months, there was the US doing exactly what Goff had been

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doing, so, So that was, um, Kissinger, Goff Whitlam, China, in that story.

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Paul Keating came out and made some favourable remarks

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about Kissinger, so Did he?

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Yes, yep so, again, it was to do with China, because Keating worked with

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Kissinger in the China Development Bank, which underwrote new Chinese

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city plans, so, possibly because it was on the topic of China that he

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felt favourably to him, but towards him, but yeah, Keating came out with

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some positive words for Kissinger.

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Yeah, and the other thing, if you're looking for something positive as well,

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is that according to former Australian diplomat Tony Kevin, Kissinger was

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sympathetic towards Russia's perspective on Ukraine, that becoming a member of

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NATO would compromise Russia's security, and he virtually predicted the Russian

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invasion if things did not improve.

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There you go.

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Right, COVID.

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You still get people today talking about, ah, it's at a function on Sunday, and

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maybe it was because Palaszczuk, at that point, had announced her resignation and

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just, again, it was an older crowd who were just really ready to bag, uh, what

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had happened in terms of quarantining and, and our response to COVID in Australia.

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And I didn't, I held back because I was a good guest.

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I don't always have to rant.

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Sometimes I do bite my tongue and held back, but I wanted to say.

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What the fuck do you think happened in other countries?

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Like, there were, the excess death rates in other countries was huge, and they

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had huge problems, and particularly if you're in Queensland, it wasn't

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the most unpleasant experience.

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And the whole point was, we waited until a vaccine came, and we got one, and

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then we could reopen, and, you know.

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Yeah, because it would have less of an impact.

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Yeah, so, even with hindsight looking at it, All perfectly made sense to do what

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was done and these people want to go, Oh, what a big, what a big hullabaloo

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they have enough than that was, you know, why did we go through all that?

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And, and we wouldn't do that again.

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And I'm thinking, well, if, if thousands, tens of thousands of people

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are dying and you might have to wait 18 months or two years for a vaccine.

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Well, yeah, we would do the same again, so anyway, I've got a chart to show

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you, which is a comparison of the OECD countries health system spending during

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the, uh, two years from 2020 to 2022.

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So really the, the main first two years of the COVID pandemic.

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I'll put that up and here it is.

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So this is spending on health care, hmm, maybe can I make that bigger?

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Joe's disappeared, hasn't he?

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Yes.

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Yeah, okay.

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Let me just look at my version.

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Australia increased spending by 1.

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7 percent above what we would normally have spent, and the average was 9%.

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So in terms of spending.

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On extra on health, on health care marginal 1.

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7 percent more than we normally would have.

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The average was 9 percent more.

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So, in terms of spending, but then going to the excess deaths and in

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terms of Australia, the red one down the bottom there, excess deaths of 4.

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4%, whereas the average was 14%.

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And so we got a really good, um, result compared to other countries in the OECD.

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And just, you know, don't want to give us enough credit for,

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for the way that was handled.

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and, you know, it didn't always relate to the, the The measures that were

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taken, or the money that was spent.

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So, Mexico had the lowest health system spending, and the

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highest excess mortality rate.

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JaPan Spent less than expected on health care, but had a great

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low excess mortality rate.

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But that's to do with cultural issues in Japan, so an already healthy population,

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mask wearing before the pandemic.

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It's fairly normal and all that sort of stuff in Japan.

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Extensive vaccination uptake, free medical care, and just social

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compliance with public health measures.

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So, there were You know cultural issues that were at play there.

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So, so yeah, do you guys come across?

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Have you ever seen the Tim Minchin Beat Poem Storm, talking about

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being a good guest at your party?

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No, what is he saying?

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So he's at a dinner party, and there's a hippie there who's making all sorts of

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assertions, and he has a bit of a rant.

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Okay.

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And I can just see you doing the same thing, so And he, and he's

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doing it at a dinner party, is he?

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At a dinner party, yeah.

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Well, you see, I, I, I think I can read the room and decide whether it Okay.

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Now's the time or not, so, you know.

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And it's whether it's the host who's making the outrageous allegation

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or whether it's Another guest.

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That's one of the factors to take into account.

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So, oh yeah there we go.

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Landon in the chat room says, I got COVID in December 2020.

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16 days in bed with fever and feeling like death.

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I couldn't go to a doctor because they'd have carted me off to a fever hospital.

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Okay, well, that's in China where you were compulsorily sent to a fever hospital.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Okay, and I think they're mentioning that Kissinger went out with

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Candice Bergman at one stage.

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Really?

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Mm.

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Quite an age difference there, wasn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Last week, I did a thing on the Identity Trap by Sasha Monk.

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Sorry about the editing on that.

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I was using Descript.

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And it was a little bit harsh and a few things got chopped out.

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And I did it on a device down the Gold Coast, so when I'm back on the Gold Coast,

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if I've got time, I'll just go back to the original file and only just edit it

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a bit lighter, because I noticed that some words got chopped off, but anyway.

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Got some feedback.

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One writer wrote, Hi Trevor, I've started listening to your episode on

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identity, and I'm afraid you really seem to be seeking out Just the information

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which reaffirms your own beliefs.

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Well, couple of thoughts on that.

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I never have that criticism when I bag religion, submarines, boomer

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friendly taxes, the LNP, Trump, etc.

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But I've had it a few times when it comes to the voice.

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And so, if you feel that way with the voice, where we disagree, but not

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on issues where we agree, Then that says something about you, not me.

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So, I think what happens with The Voice is people don't like my argument, they

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disagree with it and then start looking at things like whether I'm grabbing

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information that just reaffirms my own beliefs and complaining about

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it, yet they won't complain when I do that on every other topic,

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where they happen to agree with it.

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So Consistency, ladies and gentlemen is important.

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And and this wasn't one where I actually was seeking out the information.

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This actually just fell in my lap because Yasha Monk was interviewed

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on Late Night Live with Philip Adams.

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So if you want to hear more from him go on to Late Night Live with Philip Adams.

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And even later in this episode, I'm going to be talking about articles

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by Ross Stitt and Chris Trotter.

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Looking at the Maori situation in New Zealand, and you know, I didn't, I'm not

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here, that came from the John Menendee blog, so I don't sit at their computer

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and Google find me left wingers who have turned against identity politics or

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something like that, it's just whether they come across my newsfeed or not,

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but of course I'd be filtering the newsfeed and I might well see things

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that, are contrary to the argument I want to perhaps persuade you.

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I don't really actually want to persuade people about The Voice.

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I just want to say that there is an alternative thought process there.

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I don't really care whether people agree or not.

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I'm not trying to persuade, but the point is this is a podcast.

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This is not a court of law or a commission of inquiry.

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And provided I'm not misrepresenting the other side, I don't have to preach for the

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other side and give you the full nuts and bolts of what the other side is saying.

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I can simply summarise briefly what their position is and then go as

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long as I like in encountering it.

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It's a goddamn personal podcast for God's sake.

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Sorry, Joe.

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But I, I, I, I think with the voice and with a lot of other things.

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Where identity politics are in play, it's been very much a misrepresentation

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of the other side as racist.

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It's been lazy argumentation, it hasn't been a good, these are the

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real reasons you need the voice.

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It's been a, if you don't vote for the voice, you must be a racist.

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And that's just lazy argumentation.

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Yeah.

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Like my motivations, my motivations.

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are irrelevant, so what does it matter if I'm seeking out information which affirms

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my beliefs, if in fact the information is correct and the arguments are sound?

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You know, that's the important point.

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Is it actually a sound argument?

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Deal with those issues, dear listener.

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If you feel compelled to write in and criticise, Then don't waste time

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questioning my motives or my biases, because sure, I've got a bias on

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issues, and sure, I've got motivations, but what's it matter if I'm right?

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So, deal with the substantive issues.

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Nobody has, except Liam, who came on the podcast and gave a good account of, uh, Of

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himself and his you know, we ran through issues and that was genuinely the only

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time where somebody has attempted to deal with the issues rather than deal with,

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um, aspersions on character or motivations so yeah but if you are going to send your

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criticisms, a quick warning is I'm losing patience, I'm, I'm going to be abrupt and

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less gentle than I used to be, you know.

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It's kind of like where I got to with The Twelfth Man, where I just

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got less gentle with The Twelfth Man after a while, and he got, he sort of

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felt that, I think, and I've kind of reached that point where I'm going to

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be more abrupt and less gentle, so.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's one of those things, I don't think you're abrupt with me,

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you know, even though you and I both disagree in the voice and that type

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of thing, it's just that I could see where you were coming from.

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I could understand your arguments and that sort of stuff, but

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I didn't agree with them.

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Perfectly fine.

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Yeah, that was, and that was principally because I was looking at

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it from a different point of view.

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I was looking at it from a more emotional point of view, I think,

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more so than anything else.

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Yeah.

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You had a different priority.

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Oops.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I didn't think you were racist or anything else.

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It's just and that is what I found very disappointing about the yes side

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because Joe was bang on the money there.

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That you said that the arguments from the yes case was, well, if you're not

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voting no, if you're voting no, you're obviously racist, which is nonsense.

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You know, it's, if it was all racist and that sort of stuff that we're voting

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that way, then you'd have to look at

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you'd have to look at some, you'd have to conclude that around about 60 70

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percent of the population is racist.

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Which is the really sad thing is that people are prepared to conclude that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Which I don't think that we are.

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Mm hmm.

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You know, we do have some issues around race in this country.

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There's no point denying that, but I do not believe that you would be that racist

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to say this is you could actually say that we are racist based on that vote.

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Maybe New Zealand is full of racists.

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We're going to talk about New Zealand now.

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It's quite interesting what's been going on over there.

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So, the country's new coalition government was sworn in and said that it's going

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to review the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, which upholds Maori

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rights, including the right to autonomy.

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So the government has announced at least a dozen policies that provide

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for Maori will be repealed or reviewed.

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Bunch of racists over there.

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Must be.

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They voted for a government that went into an election willing to remove race

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based policies that favoured the Maori.

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Have you heard anybody Have you heard anybody complaining about what a

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black mark this was on New Zealand's character that they elected these guys?

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No.

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But who knows of any famous Kiwis?

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Well, all famous Kiwis eventually become famous Australians.

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Don't they?

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Well, there is that.

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We co opt them.

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Yep.

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So, announcing the changes on Friday, Luxon, the Prime Minister, said voters

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wanted services provided on the basis of need, not race, and he was strengthening

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democracy for all New Zealanders.

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Bunch of racists must have voted for a guy who'd say that.

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So the Treaty of Waitangi is an agreement reached in 1840

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between the British and the Maori.

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While it is not a legal document, it forms New Zealand's

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constitution and its principles.

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Which include the right of Maori for self determination and the protection of Maori

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interests are woven into legislation.

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This began in the 1970s with the establishment of the Waitangi Tribunal,

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a commission of inquiry that investigates treaty breaches by the Crown.

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Now, I'm not sure where I got that statement from.

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I think this was from the Guardian.

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As to what the Treaty of Waitangi says, I'm going to be quoting

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from a guy called Chris Trotter Who is a lefty in New Zealand.

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I think he's kind of like a Guy Rundle New Zealand's version of a Guy Rundle

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and he Argues it seems to me that the Treaty of Waitangi did not talk about

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cooperative government Can you possibly imagine a bunch of white fellows

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who thought the Maori were savages?

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can you possibly contemplate that they would have signed a treaty that

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allowed for cooperative governance?

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He says it doesn't do that, but anyway, no doubt there are lots

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of different opinions on that one.

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New Zealand let me just go into, so, from the John Menardew blog, I came

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across this article by Ross Stitt.

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Just came across my news feed, didn't actively seek it out, but of course when

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I saw it I thought that's interesting and that's relevant to our discussion here.

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So, he said that, You know, The Voice was a disaster for the Labor

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government, Anthony Albanese.

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But events in the Middle East, the interest rate hikes, the High

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Court decision on immigration detention, cost of living crisis.

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Basically provided a distraction from that loss.

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Scott, would you agree with that?

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Like, does it seem, other than on this podcast, where I'm just out beating

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the drum still, occasionally, sort of, it's done and dusted as an issue,

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largely, and people have moved on and there has been a series of sort of

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biggish news items that have pushed it.

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Into the far reaches of people's memories?

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Yeah, I think it is.

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I think it has been basically forgotten by the public and that sort of thing.

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It's just one of those things, clearly the government has been

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bruised by it, so they've got to get on, dust themselves off and move on.

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Mm.

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So when asked about his commitment to the Uluru Statement from the Heart on the 15th

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of October, Um, Albanese expressed his respect for the outcome of the referendum.

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There was no mention of treaty or truth telling and no doubt the a LP strategists

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are currently considering their, considering their political options.

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It would be surprising if they weren't also analysing New

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Zealand's latest election.

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The rights of the Maori population featured in the campaign and the

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subsequent negotiations led to the country's new coalition comprising

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the National Party, Libertarian ACT Party and the NZ First Party, uh,

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according to this article by Ross Stitt.

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The previous Labor government, which was Jacinda Ardern before she

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resigned and then her replacement, took many steps aimed at improving the

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lives of Indigenous New Zealanders.

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This included establishing a separate Maori Health Authority

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commissioning a report on meeting the goals of the UN Declaration on

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the Rights of Indigenous People and promoting the use of Maori language.

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And pursuing co governance, the sharing of certain governance arrangements

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between Maori and non Maori.

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So, according to Ross Stitt, many of these steps proved controversial

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and were opposed during the election by the parties that ultimately won.

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And the support for the Jacinda Ardern Labor government, I can't remember the

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name of her Its support crashed from 50% in 2020 to 27 percent in that election.

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That's a huge crash, Scott.

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50 down to 27 percent is a lot.

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There are many explanations for the wipeout, but significant sections

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of the Kiwi electorate rejected Labor's progressive agenda on Maori

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issues, and this was articulated by Chris Trotter, one of New Zealand's

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leading left wing political analysts.

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In an article titled, Losing the Working Class.

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And Trotter argues that the co governance initiative was a crucial

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catalyst for electoral defeat.

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And You didn't see my message?

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We can hear you there.

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Hang on a second, Joe.

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I'm going to mute Joe, because he's Yeah, probably half an hour or so.

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Now I've muted Joe, he's having a private conversation.

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Where was I?

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What happened was Trotter contends that as a result, when the Labor government

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of Jacinda Ardern moved forward with Indigenous co governance, the sovereignty

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grenade finally exploded, and Labor discovered what it would take to make

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the working class stop voting for it.

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And what else did he say here?

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Significantly, the leaders of both ACT, A C T, and New Zealand First, so these

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are the two of the parties in this new coalition in New Zealand, the leaders

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of two of those parties, guess what?

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They're Maori.

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Hmm.

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Interesting.

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I guess people would treat them like a Jacinta, Nampy, Jimba, Pryce.

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They're obviously, yeah, they're obviously coconuts.

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Just they're not, not the right type of Maori.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Given the voice referendum and the Kiwi election, ALB strategists might worry that

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pursuing too progressive an Indigenous agenda in Australia could alienate many

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of the traditional working class voters.

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So basically saying, based on what's happened in New Zealand, Labor would

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have to tread carefully in Australia if it pursues things like Treaty Your.

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Self determination.

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Yeah, which I agree wholeheartedly with them on, because it's just that if they

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were to actually pursue that line Then they would potentially be wiped out

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because the coalition would actually say, no, we're not going to go that far.

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Yeah, it's probably why Palaszczuk decided to abandon the whole treaty

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negotiations up here because the coalition had politicized its response to the

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voice, which let the opposition leader, Christopher Foley, the option that he

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could actually attack the Labour Party over the negotiations on a treaty.

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Yes.

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She cleverly said.

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Well, unless you get bipartisan support for these things,

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there's no point pursuing it.

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And the LNP is not going to come to the party, so we're not even going to bother.

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Which is a very clever political move.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Which is precisely what Albanese should have done with the voice.

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He should have actually said, look, we can't proceed with it because the

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coalition's going to say no, you guys work on the coalition, get them to

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over the line and that sort of stuff to say, yes, then we'll pursue it then.

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Maybe people wouldn't have believed him.

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I think, you remember the opinion polls were 60 40 in the

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beginning, so it probably needed that defeat to convince people.

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He could say it now, when it comes to treaty, or other sorts

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of self determination things.

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He could run the argument and people would believe him, but I don't, maybe

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they wouldn't have believed him before.

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So, one final thing on the Maori is that atheism is on the rise.

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This is an article from The Conversation.

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And the study was a particularly small sample size, so it was more about

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qualitative rather than quantitative.

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The authors wrote that religious belief amongst the Maori

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has shifted significantly.

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And, um, actually this figure's okay.

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The number of Maori identifying as having no religion in the census Between

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2006 and 2018, increased from 36.

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5 percent to 53.

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5%.

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So that was the increase in the number of Maori having no religion.

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And Christianity affiliation for Maori fell from 46 to 29.

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Now that's in a 12 year period.

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Now, are the Maori simply rejecting Christianity?

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Or are they rejecting all supernatural, all supernatural phenomena,

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including traditional Maori beliefs?

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And these academics argue, our research examined the

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apparent rise of Maori atheism.

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We found the colonial history of religion was a driving force for

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Maori who identified as atheists.

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So they found people were Rejecting Christianity because they saw it as

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a colonial sort of cultural feature that wasn't suitable to the Maori.

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Scott and Joe?

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I've often been bemused by our Indigenous brothers and sisters.

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Attachment to Christianity and not, and not saying that as a

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dilution of indigenous culture here.

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Was it not a Native American who said, when the first white men came, they

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had the Bibles and we had the land?

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We closed our eyes to pray, and when we opened them again, we had

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the Bibles and they had the land.

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That's a good line.

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Hmm.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Here's another one from the same research.

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We also found Maori atheists said they experienced discrimination for their

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lack of religion and their Maori ness was questioned within their community or work.

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Black people in America have said the same thing.

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About Native Americans?

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No, no, no.

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Black people.

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So, African Americans.

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Yes.

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Have said that effectively, Christianity is part of the

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identity of being black in America.

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And if you are an atheist, your very identity is being

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questioned by your community.

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So, it finishes off here, our research highlights the diversity of non

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religion amongst Maori, which is neither reflected in representation

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for Maori, nor considered in Maori Crown relations, and it's complex.

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Anyway, link in the show notes, relevant sections, but yeah I wonder if that sort

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of discussion will find its way into, uh, Australian Indigenous arguments

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about whether Australian Indigenous people will drop Christianity, seeing

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it as a sort of a colonial and cultural imposition, and whether being non

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spiritual Will call into question your legitimate aspiration of being Indigenous.

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See if those arguments make their way across the Tasman.

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Certainly, certainly in the RI figures for Queensland.

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Unadmittedly, I've not seen them for several years.

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But the number of native beliefs or whatever the class is called, um, was

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considerably lower than the Christian.

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And I, I wonder how many Aboriginals still hold to traditional beliefs, as

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opposed to some form of Christianity blended, possibly, with the surviving I

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predict there, if you really questioned, there would be a surprisingly high

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number of people who have a confusing mix of traditional spiritual, um, belief.

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With Christian belief in some, in some, I mean, the Holy Trinity is inexplicable

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in itself, but adding Yes traditional spiritual beliefs into that mix would be

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something else again, and I think there would be a number of, a high number of

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people who somehow would adhere to both in some complex mix that sounds impossible.

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But when forced, say, uh, with one period of religious instruction

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at school to choose between them, which one would they choose?

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Yeah, well, whoever offers the best lollies and the most entertainment.

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Well, possibly, yes.

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Yeah.

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Right, well, that's enough, I think.

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There we go.

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Trip around the world, New Zealand, will that transfer to Australia?

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We'll find out in the Next year.

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This is going to be the last episode for this year.

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Take a bit of a break, come back in the new year, unless

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something extraordinary happens.

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Any other thoughts, gentlemen?

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Any other closing comments you'd like to make, or just see you later?

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You know, not in a Christian terms, but Merry Christmas to all our listeners, and,

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Nadori Claren to you, my love, Sharon.

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There we go.

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Happy holidays.

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Yeah.

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Indeed, or even happy holiday, which is the Pastafarian greeting.

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Oh, is it?

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Yeah, I know that.

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Singular.

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There we go.

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Singular, yes.

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Yep.

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There we go.

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Okay.

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Alright.

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Well, we're done for this episode.

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We're done for the year.

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Keep an eye you should be following us on Facebook because you'll get

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notifications when our episode's coming out, so keep an eye on that to find

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out when the next one's going to be.

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It'll be a Tuesday night sometime in the new year.

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Talk to you then.

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Bye for now.

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Yeah, that's a good night from me.

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And it's a good night from him.

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Good night.

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