Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data | The Plains of Electric Power | Beyond the Program
In this episode our guest host, Jazmin Furtado, speaks with Emma Konet, Co-Founder and CTO of Tierra Climate, to learn more about how data is being harnessed to advance the Electric Power Industry.
They discuss:
About today’s host: Jazmin Furtado has been a part of the software innovation realm for the Department of Defense where she has overseen large-scale Data and Artificial Intelligence programs in the Air Force and Space Force. She has also held various leadership and advisory roles with organizations such as Google, SpaceX, and Massachusetts General Hospital, where she designed and scaled AI, data, and education and training programs.
About today’s guest: Emma Konet is Co-Founder and CTO of Tierra Climate. Tierra Climate's mission is to accelerate grid-scale battery deployment by unlocking and monetizing grid decarbonization services. She is currently pursuing an MBA at Rice University’s Jones Graduate School of Business and previously worked three years at battery developer Key Capture Energy as Director of Market Strategy & Operations. Prior to Key Capture, Emma spent four years at Citibank as a power trader managing risk in East power markets. In addition, Emma graduated Summa Cum Laude from Tulane with a B.S. in Chemistry and Mathematics and was recently selected as a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree for Energy.
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Hey listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program.
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:Enjoy.
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:Emma Konet: Hello
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:Jazmin Furtado: everyone, and welcome to
Frontiers, exploring the world of data.
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:Frontiers dives into how people
are using their data science minds
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:to shape organizations and change
the landscape outside of big tech.
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:In each episode, we explore the far
reaching corners of the world of data.
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:My name is Jazmin, and I'm
your host for this series.
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:I myself am passionate about
empowering people to make data
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:driven decisions, and I'm always
amazed at how others do it every day.
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:Today, we are exploring the general,
the plains of electric power, how
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:data is being leveraged to shake up
the energy industry of the future.
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:And that leads us to introducing our
very special guest today, Emma Konet.
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:Emma is the co founder and CTO of
Tierra Climate, a startup that's
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:leveraging the power of emissions data
to improve battery economics and make
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:the power grid greener and faster.
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:I think a lot of us have been really
surprised to learn about all the serious
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:work that goes into providing us not
just the electricity we consume every
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:day, but how people like Emma are
reimagining how we harness a commodity
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:that we've had for over 100 years.
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:Before co founding Tierra Climate,
Emma spent a few years at Citi and
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:then dove into the electropower
industry at Key Capture Energy,
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:and a common thread throughout her
career has been her use of data to
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:reimagine things and do things better.
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:So thank you so much for
being here today, Emma.
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:I'm really looking forward to hearing your
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:Emma Konet: story.
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:Thanks, Jazmin.
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:Really happy to be here.
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:So as
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:Jazmin Furtado: we start, we will start
with our icebreaker question per usual.
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:So the icebreaker question today related
to the energy industry is, if you were
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:to invent a new type of power source,
what would you use or base it on and why?
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:So I like to start so that I
don't have a tough act to follow.
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:So my energy source, if I can create
a new one, would be dream energy.
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:So bear with me here, dream energy.
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:So if you can generate energy while you
dream, like when you're in a deep sleep,
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:and then you have the ability to save it.
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:And then you can use it on days when you
don't have enough sleep the day before,
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:you can use it then and like tap into
that as a more like natural source of
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:energy instead of like taking stimulants
or like, you know, caffeine and whatnot.
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:It's like your own like
personalized dream energy pill.
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:And so like, there's a state
of the saying of, you know.
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:You can't just recover from a bad
night's sleep by just sleeping
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:more the next day, necessarily.
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:Like, you know, it's, it's not that easy.
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:It's not a tit for tat sort of situation.
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:So I imagine that this dream
energy source would be something
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:a little bit more natural to help.
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:Ease you into the days after a
bad, a bad, a bad night's sleep.
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:So that's my energy source.
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:Emma, we'd love to hear yours.
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:Emma Konet: I love it.
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:I think mine is not nearly as creative,
unfortunately, but, um, I love that.
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:Yeah.
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:So for me, it's probably, I mean, I
can't claim like certainly did not
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:invent this, but I've always been
fascinated by nuclear energy and, you
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:know, historically we've had nuclear.
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:Vision, but nuclear fusion is obviously
what happens in stars and it's kind of
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:like what powers the universe and like,
um, I've always thought of, like, every
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:energy source originating from nuclear
energy, nuclear fusion, uh, because we
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:get, uh, you know, sunshine from from.
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:The sun and it comes down and it,
um, grows plants and then those
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:plants got converted into, uh, fossil
fuels after, you know, thousands of
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:years of compression in the earth.
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:And then we, we release that
energy when we burn them.
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:So even even fossil fuels come from
the sun and then obviously solar
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:energy wind comes from the sun moving.
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:Gas particles in our atmosphere.
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:Um, and so I think that everyone like
the ground truth of energy is fusion.
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:And, um, I think we've we've sustained
a fusion reaction, uh, I think
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:for, like, 17 minutes on earth.
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:But, um, you know, it's kind of
like the, the key to unlocking, I
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:think, the carbon free, um, future.
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:And if we can figure that out,
it's going to be pretty major.
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:Jazmin Furtado: When we chatted a little
bit earlier about this before this
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:recording, um, you said that this was
like an area or you've thought about
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:this question before, or like, maybe
you've thought about this topic before.
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:How long has this, like, can you
give a little bit more context there?
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:Is it like, you know, this, this,
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:Emma Konet: this question particular?
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:Yeah, I mean, probably ever since I
was in like second grade, my dad has
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:been telling me about how nuclear
fusion is going to save the world.
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:So I've been, he has, he had
encouraged me to be an engineer
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:so that I could go figure it out.
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:Um, ended up not being an engineer.
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:I studied mathematics and
chemistry in undergrad, um, but
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:ended up in the energy industry.
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:And, uh, I think where I found
myself is squarely in like.
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:Implementation of technologies that
do exist, uh, rather than working on
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:technologies that might exist in a lab.
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:But I think that things kind of come
full circle because it's always been.
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:Part of my life is thinking about
energy and how we get energy.
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:I think it's like, I, I mean,
I'm very passionate about energy.
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:I think it's like probably one of the
most important things we can think
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:of as, um, like solving a lot of the
world's problems is with, is with
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:clean, abundant and reliable energy.
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:So it's always been
something I've thought about.
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:Yeah.
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:You,
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:Jazmin Furtado: you're segwaying
us right into our main, uh, the
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:main part of our episode here
and just, just chatting about.
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:You know, the electric power industry
and 1st of all, like, learning about it.
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:I think a lot of people don't really know
what it entails and, like, the different
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:things that people do in this space.
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:The energy industry at large I think
covers a lot of ground and so I was
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:just wondering if for this, for our
conversation today, if you could just
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:first like paint a picture of this
industry as you know it, you know,
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:your, your, I guess the lens and
your, your piece of the industry, and
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:then talk us through and you spoke
a little bit to it, maybe go into
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:it more, like how you got into You
know, where you are now, it's your
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:Emma Konet: climate.
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:Sure.
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:Yeah.
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:So energy industry is
like a super broad term.
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:And I live in Houston, Texas.
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:And when you say energy in Houston,
most people think oil and gas and, um,
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:it's, you know, it's been the fossil
fuels reigning supreme for the past
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:century or 2, um, and, you know, it's
really improved the quality of life
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:of a lot of people on the planet.
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:And so, um, that's the
traditional idea of energy.
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:But I think.
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:You know, electricity has been around for
a very long time as well, and historically
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:been generated by fossil fuels as well.
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:But in the last, you know, 30 to
40 years, we're seeing a transition
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:happen and we're starting to see
electricity being produced by other
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:sources of electricity generation.
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:And that includes wind power,
solar power, geothermal power.
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:Um, hydroelectric power, uh, a nuclear
power, like we talked about earlier.
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:Um, and, uh, so, you know, I think we're,
we're probably entering into an age
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:of what I would say is going to be the
biggest energy transition of our lifetime.
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:Um.
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:It's going to be substantial.
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:I mean, we're, we're looking at replacing
basically all fossil fuel generators
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:on the electrical grid with some
other form of dispatchable generation.
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:And when I say dispatchable
generation, I mean, generation
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:that you can turn on and off.
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:Um, that doesn't rely on some weather
phenomenon, like the sun shining
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:or the wind blowing and we, um,
it'll be the combination of, like,
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:what we consider clean dispatchable
resources in many cases, what people.
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:Um, think of as traditionally as like
a battery, but there's lots of forms
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:of energy storage and renewable energy.
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:That'll kind of make up
the grid of the future.
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:And that's going to become even more
important as we start to electrify other
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:things in the world, like transportation.
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:Um, and it's going to become important
when we start to have problems
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:with water scarcity, because we'll
need electricity to desalinate if
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:we have water shortages in places.
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:You know, where we, we can't
get enough clean water.
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:So, ultimately, everything, everything
to me kind of boils into this,
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:like, clean energy world that has
to be powered by, like, a reliable.
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:Sustainable, clean electric grid and, um.
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:That's always been my passion.
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:I answer the 2nd, part of your question
of how, like, how did I get into this?
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:Um, I've cared about climate change.
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:I was a young child.
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:Um, I did my 7th grade science project on.
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:The greenhouse effect, and I always
knew that it was like, I mean, even
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:then it was, I guess, still kind of
controversial that it was, you know,
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:caused by humans and, um, going to
cause a lot of problems in the world.
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:And now I think it's much more accepted.
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:Um, but I, even from back then, I was
like, you know, this seems like a big
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:problem we should probably be working on.
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:Um, and then I, I studied chemistry
and math, as I mentioned, and I
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:ended up getting my 1st job on a
commodities trading floor and I
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:really gravitated towards power.
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:As a commodity, you know, electrons
flowing through transmission
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:lines, how they're generated,
um, fascinating math problem.
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:Um, and once I was there, I started
to see this transition happening.
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:You know, it was, it was like 2016 to
:
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:getting built and I was like, we're going
to have to store this energy somehow.
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:And that's how I landed at an energy
storage developer and owner operator.
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:And then from there, got super interested
in, like, problem space of how we dispatch
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:batteries and, like, really complex.
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:Um, you know, dynamics of the power
grid with respect to, like, energy
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:duration, limited energy sources, and
then started my own company and and
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:left my left my job in April of this
year and started tier climate and tier
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:climate was really born out of the.
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:Um, to solve 2 problems.
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:Uh, 1 is we need to operate energy
storage assets in a way that
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:decarbonizes the grid quickly.
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:And 2, we need them to make enough
money to justify the trillions.
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:Probably trillion dollars worth of
investment that we need to transition
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:the grid to net 0 and Terra Climate
is solving both of those problems.
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:Um, and that's and that's
why I started this company.
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:You know,
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:Jazmin Furtado: no big deal.
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:That's great.
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:You just started your own company.
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:No small task.
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:Uh, when you, when we talk about
the electric grid and like the,
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:you know, the carbon footprint when
it comes to electric grid, can you
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:speak to that a little bit more?
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:Like, what?
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:Because I think of the electric grid, you
know, if you're not familiar and I'm very
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:not familiar with the industry, um, Yeah.
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:You just think of just the network of
how we get our electricity, um, and,
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:you know, is that like underground?
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:Is that like, I guess I'm assuming
it's all like underground or
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:over like wires or whatnot.
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:So can you explain, first of all, what
the electric grid is and then also,
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:you know, what is that, what does
it mean to have a, you know, um, and
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:like have less like a carbon footprint
when it comes to the electric grid?
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:Emma Konet: Sure.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah, sometimes I take for granted,
like, the nuance of, you know, how
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:power works, because it's one of those
things, like, I always compare it to,
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:like, cell phones, like, I have a cell
phone I use every day, and I have no
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:idea how it works, like, I have, I really
don't know the mechanics of, like, when
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:I call someone, like, what is actually
happening, but I use it all the time, and
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:I think power is really similar, right?
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:You turn your light on.
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:And the light turns on and, you
know, there's electrons flowing, but
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:like, oh, where do they come from?
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:I don't know if I never if you
never had to think about it.
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:I mean, you know, it's probably not
something, you know, a bunch about.
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:So, yeah, to answer your
question, I think there's 4 major
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:components of the power grid.
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:Um, there's the generators
that are people that are.
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:Generating electrons from some sort of
fuel source, and that could be by spinning
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:a turbine by, you know, by burning
fossil fuels to spin a turbine to create
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:a current that flows through a line or
to like, an inverter based resource.
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:That's capturing the energy
from the sun from the wind.
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:And those are that's the generating fleet
and they're massive, massive projects.
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:Um, like, You know, can power tens
of thousands of homes, and they're
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:oftentimes far away from where you live.
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:Um, and so then that brings us to the
transmission system, which moves that
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:power from where the power is being
generated and transfers it into the
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:places where people live and use power.
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:Then you have the distribution system,
which takes that power from what we call
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:them high voltage transmission lines.
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:Um, that's like, they're
more efficient at carrying.
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:Like, they're basically like the highways.
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:Like, if you can think about that, the
analogy, it's like the highway for power.
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:And then you have, like, your little
neighborhood streets, which is the
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:distribution system and that steps the
power down in voltage and delivers it to.
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:What is the last component of the
electricity grid, which is the load and
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:that's anyone who's pulling power off the
power grid from the distribution system.
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:So that could be my house.
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:That could be an industrial.
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:Industrial facility that's making widgets.
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:Um, it's really any
anyone that uses power.
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:And so those are kind of like,
what makes up the electricity grid.
255
:Now, the really interesting
thing is that until recently.
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:We haven't really had cost
effective and wide scale storage.
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:So that means that every time, like, this
is a commodity that you cannot, I mean,
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:it's electrons flowing down a line, right?
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:It's not like oil that you can
put in a barrel or natural gas
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:that you can pull on a pipe.
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:And a lot of people say electrons
versus molecules, like, electrons
262
:flow on lines and every other
form of energy is a molecule based
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:form of energy that can be stored.
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:And so, because we haven't had storage
that's been cost effective and wide scale.
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:We've built a system where
electricity is consumed at the
266
:same time that it's produced.
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:So like when you turn your light
on, there is a generator running
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:that is producing that power and
delivering it to you in that moment.
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:And, um, the supply has to meet the
demand at every single point in time,
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:and the grid has to balance that at
a very, very, um, tight band around
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:a frequency band around 60 Hertz.
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:That's what the US power grid operates on.
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:And there are a bunch of resources
that are ramping up and ramping down
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:and ramping up and ramping down to
ensure that we don't violate that 60
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:Hertz constraint and don't get too
far away out of that frequency band.
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:And so that's really just as a
supply and demand matching problem.
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:Now you kind of have like energy
storage enters the chat and like the
278
:game changes a bit because now all of a
sudden we can produce energy at a time.
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:Maybe when we don't need it and we can
store it and then we can use it later.
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:Kind of like your, your dream energy,
um, being able to use valuable
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:energy, um, later at a later time.
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:So, yeah, so energy storage,
you know, um, it's been around.
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:Certainly the concept has been around
for a while, you know, like people
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:have used pumped hydro, you know, As
energy storage, they pump water up in
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:elevation and then it has potential
energy because it's stored up high and
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:then you can flow it through a turbine
when you want to release that energy
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:that spins a turbine and creates power.
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:So that's not a new concept at all.
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:But that's very geographically
constrained to places where you
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:have water and elevation changes.
291
:Um, lithium ion batteries, on the
other hand, have a really high
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:efficiency rate, meaning that they.
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:Okay.
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:Don't lose a lot of power when they, they
go through that process of storing and
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:they can pretty much be placed anywhere.
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:They're very modular.
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:And so there's been in the last couple
of years, a huge change and how we think
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:about transitioning the power grid with
renewable energy, because we can all
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:of a sudden start using that really
valuable, clean energy when the sun goes
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:down and we can use that at 7 PM and,
um, and displace fossil fuel generation.
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:Got
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:Jazmin Furtado: it.
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:Okay.
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:So I'm making the, the whole green aspect
is really being able to maximize the
305
:utilization of, you know, these, these
energy storage, you know, these batteries
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:in order to make the, the energy available
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:Emma Konet: like on demand.
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:Yeah, that's exactly right.
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:It's the classic model, what
they call, they call it energy
310
:arbitrage, where you're arbitraging.
311
:Really, it's the price of
electricity, which correlates to,
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:um, generally correlates to the
carbon content of electricity.
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:Um, and you're buying when prices you,
the battery buys when prices are low
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:and then sells when prices are high.
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:And that time shifting, that's
how a battery gets paid.
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:And that time shifting has the natural
effect of picking excess, you know, just
317
:cause supply and demand when we have
too much of something, the price falls.
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:Right.
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:Um, and we don't, we don't
have enough, the price goes up.
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:And so it.
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:It uses economics and economic
signals to shift energy to
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:times when we really need it.
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:And the idea behind.
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:Using batteries and connecting them to a
grid that has a lot of renewable energy is
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:that that cheap energy that's oversupplied
is coming from a renewable resource.
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:And so you can use that renewable energy.
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:At any time of day, and it
becomes it becomes dispatchable.
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:Got it.
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:Okay.
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:Okay.
331
:Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, thank you
for laying laying laying all that.
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:I know that's it.
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:You're taking a very complex.
334
:Concept and be able to explain it out.
335
:Um, I, it makes complete sense when.
336
:You think about it, the, it seems
so complex when you're talking about
337
:it, you're like, all right, things
move from one place to the next.
338
:And they, you know, it's all like
a big, um, ecosystem basically
339
:to provide you the energy you
need or the electricity you need.
340
:But I imagine that there's a lot of
analysis behind the scenes, a lot of
341
:like optimization behind the scenes.
342
:And I want to pull on that,
like data analysis, sort of like
343
:thread that goes on, cause I
think that's an integral part of.
344
:You know what you're doing.
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:So I what?
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:Where?
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:First of all, what sort of data
are you like capturing or are
348
:you of most interest to you?
349
:And then second of all, like,
how are you using that and
350
:leveraging it to make decisions?
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:Emma Konet: Sure.
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:So batteries are much more of what we
would call like a digital asset than any
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:other type of, um, generator on the grid,
meaning that they participate They can
354
:leverage data in a way to improve their
operations that that not many other, um,
355
:generators can or wouldn't even need to.
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:Um, and I say that meaning like
a battery is very quick to, like.
357
:Respond to a signal, so it can, like, go
from charging to discharging within, like.
358
:Couple of seconds, um, or even shorter.
359
:And, um, it's also duration limited,
meaning that the decisions that a battery
360
:operator is making depend on what you
think is gonna happen in the future.
361
:So I have like, if price is like
$30 now and I think it's gonna be a
362
:hundred dollars in the future, I would
wanna charge at $30 and discharge
363
:at a hundred to make my $70 profit.
364
:So buy at 30, sell at 100, move
the power across those two time
365
:intervals and get that, um, get paid.
366
:But if it's 30 now, and I
think it's going to be 0 in the
367
:future, I don't want to buy.
368
:I actually want to sell.
369
:And I'm constrained by what my
state of charge is on the asset.
370
:Like how much state of charge being how
much, um, power, just like your phone,
371
:how much power is in the Battery that
I have to be able to discharge and
372
:this is all a big optimization problem.
373
:That's like moving forward
in time constantly.
374
:And we think of a battery operating
on what we call opportunity cost.
375
:Meaning like, if I'm not doing
something, what, what is the cost
376
:of doing something else basically?
377
:And how do I optimize across all of
the potential things that I can sell?
378
:Both across time and across products,
because batteries can sell a lot
379
:of different products, which we
don't really need to get into.
380
:There's a lot of products besides just
energy in the power market that, like,
381
:do things that help the grid function.
382
:Um, and so anyway, it just
becomes this big math problem.
383
:That's really interesting and fun.
384
:And the inputs to that are, um,
you know, at the most basic level
385
:power prices and what we think power
price is going to be in the future.
386
:And power pricing of itself is a whole
math problem as a convex optimization,
387
:mixed integer problem that happens
at the level of the grid operator.
388
:Um, and it's doing a bunch of crazy
stuff at, like, these massive servers
389
:that said that tell the grid how
to dispatch in the lowest cost way.
390
:But what Terra Climate is doing is
saying, hey, look, we want to optimize
391
:the battery, not only to do the most.
392
:Optimal dispatch schedule with
respect to price, but also we want
393
:to do the most the most optimal
schedule with respect to emissions.
394
:And that is, um, that's not something
any real other generator can do.
395
:Right?
396
:Like, wind and solar, they
generate when they generate.
397
:They don't have control over
when they're generating.
398
:They generate when the wind is
blowing and the sun is shining.
399
:A natural gas generator is going to have.
400
:Emissions because they have
to burn gas to create power.
401
:And so they don't, they
can't optimize to emissions.
402
:They just produce emissions, but a
battery can optimize to emissions by
403
:buying power that has low carbon content.
404
:And then selling power back to the grid
when the carbon content of the greatest
405
:high, and this is kind of where it's
like, a little harder to understand
406
:and, like, think about it's kind of.
407
:Esoteric, but what you're really doing
is you're displacing a generator.
408
:That would have otherwise
been burning fuel and.
409
:So what we're really trying to
do with data is say, hey, we can
410
:actually estimate what we think the
emissions are going to be on the grid.
411
:In addition to the price, and they're
not perfectly correlated 1 to 1,
412
:and it really depends on location.
413
:Um, and and fundamental aspects of,
like, the physical transmission system
414
:and the wires, you know, connecting
all the generators to the load.
415
:Um, and so it's really it boils down to,
like, a really complicated forecasting
416
:problem that then feeds an optimization.
417
:Engine and so there's a lot of data.
418
:There's like, I mean, batteries spin off a
ton of data and they ingest a ton of data
419
:and they do really cool, complex things.
420
:And that's what.
421
:Terra climate is working on, and
we're actually, we're really the
422
:1st optimization engine that's.
423
:Um, going to be optimizing to carbon
emissions in addition to price and
424
:the way that we're able to accomplish
that is by partnering batteries
425
:with, um, corporate entities that
want to purchase carbon offsets.
426
:To claim those offsets as, um,
against their own emissions and It's
427
:really, really critical to note that,
like, corporates have done played
428
:such a big role in getting energy
infrastructure built in our country.
429
:I don't think people necessarily realize,
like, how much we owe to, like, the big
430
:tech companies that are building wind
farms, like, they're building wind farms.
431
:They're building solar.
432
:I'm not physically building them,
but they're, they're enabling them
433
:financially by investing basically.
434
:And, um, we're essentially
standing up that same mechanism
435
:to support energy storage.
436
:Um, through this contract that allows
batteries to operate in a way that pulls
437
:carbon off the grid and the corporates
are willing to pay batteries to do that.
438
:Jazmin Furtado: These optimization
models are, you know, these
439
:methodologies can very like.
440
:Big and complex.
441
:Like they're really big models where,
but of course these models have to,
442
:you know, you need a lot of data to
feed that every industry, when it comes
443
:to you know, the data that they have
available, the data, the data that
444
:they use every day, it's a little bit
different in terms of how easy it is to
445
:access, where are they getting it from?
446
:How much do they trust it?
447
:What does that data look like for you
in terms of, you know, how easy is it
448
:to pull, where are you pulling it from?
449
:Uh, does it give you the full
picture of what are like?
450
:Some of the constraints or limitations
or biases to the data that you get.
451
:Emma Konet: Yeah, I'm going to
answer this with a little bit
452
:of a longer history of power.
453
:I hope you'll oblige me in the
early nineties, actually in the
454
:early nineties, literally, um, power
markets were deregulated, meaning
455
:that they were converted from like
vertically integrated monopolies into.
456
:Markets where you can have full
participation from players.
457
:Like generators and load in a
transparent deregulated market.
458
:And basically what that means is
that, like, the people it used
459
:to be that utilities owned the
generation transmission lines.
460
:At the customers, and you can see
they're starting to have a lot of market
461
:power, and it was hard to control cost.
462
:And so, in an effort to reduce costs
for rate payers, and I say rate payers,
463
:I'm like, you, me, anyone who pays
an electric bill is a rate payer.
464
:Um.
465
:In order to reduce costs for rate
payers, they said, let's deregulate
466
:this market, make it more competitive.
467
:And when they did that, it
unleashed, like, a massive amount
468
:of transparent data to the market.
469
:So where we get a lot of our data is
actually from the grid operator itself.
470
:They're called independent
system operators or ISOs.
471
:Sometimes called regional
transmission operators, RTOs, um,
472
:and they, they have data sets.
473
:I mean, you can, there's public data.
474
:You can go out and just like pull
very granular, very, um, niche data,
475
:pretty much anything, any question
you have about power, you can answer
476
:through, through like grid data.
477
:So that's one aspect.
478
:Um, and it's, it, it, you know, I think
I could go on on a while about it.
479
:The benefits and the pros and the
cons of power market deregulation,
480
:because I think there are, you
know, both sides of that coin.
481
:Um, but, you know, for better or
worse, this is the system that we
482
:have and pretty much the system
in a lot of places in the world.
483
:And, um, and there's a
lot of data associated.
484
:And the 2nd place we get data from
is from the assets themselves.
485
:So if I'm like an owner operator
of an asset, like a battery asset.
486
:Like a lithium ion battery specifically,
you know, it's made up of little cells,
487
:um, that are like the size of a VHS
tape and they're stacked into bigger
488
:modules, which are then, you know,
hung into like these big racks and
489
:then they go in shipping containers.
490
:So it's very like modular.
491
:Um, it's basically like, you know,
the same battery is in your phone.
492
:Like, it's lithium ion.
493
:Like, they just make it.
494
:Bigger by making many of them
exist in 1 place and, um,
495
:they spin off a ton of data.
496
:Like, every 4 seconds, you get, like,
voltage temperature, um, all like.
497
:Any kind of reading you could, like,
get from a sensor on each of those
498
:cells and then across all the cells.
499
:And across time, and then across
projects, and so you can start to
500
:see data like balloons easily into
terabytes of project level data and, um.
501
:That's another really important feature
of how we optimize energy storage
502
:because it's not 1 massive asset.
503
:It's a bunch of aggregated, smaller
batteries, and there are performance
504
:issues across those, and you have
to, you know, there's a lot of.
505
:Engineering that goes into, they
call performance engineering
506
:that goes into getting optimal
performance of such a digital asset.
507
:Yeah,
508
:Jazmin Furtado: the more you
talk about, I'm just like, wow,
509
:this is I can see how it just.
510
:There's just so much to kind of.
511
:Russell to, like, grab it right around
and I can actually make, like, sense
512
:and make the data like, work for you
when it comes to the, the, the electric
513
:power industry or just in your space.
514
:How I guess is this amount of data?
515
:And the I mean, obviously presents
a lot of opportunities, but.
516
:Are there challenges with the data
aspect of, um, of your work and
517
:being able to grab the data, make
sense of it, you know, the speed at
518
:which you're able to make decisions?
519
:Are there, are there challenges
that make working with data
520
:in this industry in this field
521
:Emma Konet: unique?
522
:Yeah, I think, you know, there
are certainly industries that use
523
:data at a much higher frequency
than, like, the power grid does.
524
:And like, one that I would
think of is like, you know,
525
:high frequency equities trading.
526
:Where you're literally trying to,
like, arm the speed at which, like,
527
:information can travel down a cable.
528
:So, there's like, there's definitely,
like, people out there doing,
529
:like, way heftier problems than,
I mean, this is still, like, a lot
530
:of data that happens very quickly.
531
:You generate a lot of data.
532
:By no means, like, I mean, there are
people out there doing like quantum
533
:computing and certain applications.
534
:And I would say, like, the
energy world, the world of
535
:electric power is not there yet.
536
:Not even close.
537
:Like, uh, are we're basically
making decisions on a level of
538
:like 5 minutes every 5 minutes.
539
:Um, so it is, but it is a lot.
540
:And I think maybe 1 of the more
interesting things is that, like,
541
:these optimization models require,
like, compute power and, you know,
542
:uh, like a naive, simple model that
you could use like an open source.
543
:Thanks.
544
:Um, Python package solver to to solve
sometimes can't solve a problem and
545
:the time constraint that you have.
546
:And so you actually have to, like,
level up to a more heavy duty commercial
547
:solver that has a more elegant, um,
way of coming to an optimal solution.
548
:And that is a constraint
that you could see.
549
:I mean, obviously there are people
out there solving very, very complex
550
:optimization problems quickly.
551
:And so you throw enough compute power
at it and you can, you can get it done.
552
:Um, but you could bump up against
that constraint, um, where you're
553
:just, it's a, it's a difficult mixed
integer problem and it takes time
554
:for a computer to find a solution.
555
:So I think that's kind of one maybe
interesting constraint that specifically
556
:relates to battery optimization.
557
:Are you saying you're running
558
:Jazmin Furtado: these models
and updating, getting updated
559
:information every five minutes?
560
:Yes, that is so fast.
561
:I thought that was so fast
because you're coming.
562
:I think your background, I
think, um, you're, I guess
563
:you've also been on like that.
564
:You've worked at faster speeds
or you've gotten information
565
:at faster speeds, right?
566
:On like a more like every
second sort of basis.
567
:Is that, is that right?
568
:Okay.
569
:Emma Konet: Yeah.
570
:So the fact that you can,
you're getting information
571
:Jazmin Furtado: every five minutes, I
think is with all the information you have
572
:to like, I think that's It's really fast.
573
:Um, I think, you know, when you look
at other industries, they can go,
574
:you know, you'd be, um, you know,
depending on your data source and
575
:how often it's updated, you can get,
you know, every day, every month, you
576
:know, you'll get like new information.
577
:You can like, you know,
crunch new numbers, but that,
578
:that's a really exciting area.
579
:I would think that in the energy industry
at large, you know, it's, you know, it's
580
:such an old industry, obviously, um,
you would think that things, you know.
581
:Go a little slower.
582
:Uh, do you, do you think that there's
just a lot of push for things, you know,
583
:to make, to reimagine things in it?
584
:It's, it's really.
585
:Uh, the, the bar, the barrier
to entry is low on that front
586
:and the energy in the energy
587
:Emma Konet: industry.
588
:Yeah, I think that the
energy industry is okay.
589
:Let me say this.
590
:There's a lot of consequences to
screwing up in the energy industry.
591
:Like, if something goes wrong, you
can, like, fry a transmission line that
592
:costs a million dollars a mile to build
or 5 million dollars a mile to build.
593
:And like, that's a huge
infrastructure risk.
594
:Um, you can cause people to lose power
that need it, like hospitals and places
595
:that can't, you know, like I got my
COVID vaccine because the hospital
596
:lost power during a winter storm in
Texas and they had a freezer full of
597
:vaccines that were going to go bad.
598
:And this was in like February of 2021,
like that's a real critical problem.
599
:Like the power grid failed and
like it had real consequences.
600
:To the hospital that was trying to
administer vaccines in a pandemic.
601
:So, um, I think that because of those
consequences, the industry, by definition,
602
:can't move as fast as like the tech world.
603
:Um, like the, the speed at
which we're seeing, like, large
604
:language models evolve and and.
605
:Enter into the market is like breakneck
compared to the speed at which you see
606
:the electric power industry of all.
607
:Um, and it's probably because, like,
if tells you, you know, the sky is red,
608
:like, there's no real consequences.
609
:You just go.
610
:Oh, yeah, it's not.
611
:I guess it's wrong.
612
:But if the energy industry fails to supply
power to, like, critical infrastructure,
613
:then people's lives are at stake.
614
:So.
615
:So I think that's that's 1 answer to
your question, but the flip side of
616
:that is, like, the power grid has been
dispatching the grid on as on a granular
617
:level of every 5 minutes for a long time.
618
:Like, the, the, the actual.
619
:Dispatch happens, um, from the
independent system operator, like,
620
:what we would consider the grid.
621
:Um, really frequently, and it's and
it's actually sending signals to some
622
:assets on the order of, like, sub 2nd.
623
:With respect to like
maintaining frequency.
624
:Cause it's so important that we maintain
frequency to keep the grid up and running.
625
:So, um, it's kind of crazy to me that
we built this system that is like
626
:mine, surely like ahead of its time.
627
:Like when we think back to like the
bulk power grid and like it's doing
628
:stuff and dispatching all these
assets and moving power and making
629
:sure everyone can pull power and
transmission lines are protected.
630
:Um, at a five minute granularity, like.
631
:That's impressive.
632
:Um, but it's just been that way for a
while and it's hard to say, I don't know.
633
:I mean, it's hard to say.
634
:I think that things will evolve
the way things are moving
635
:in the, in the energy world.
636
:As we make this clean energy transition
is that you no longer have, like,
637
:plants that have to, like, burn coal
and, like, get a turbine spinning and
638
:like, you know, Um, you know, like,
literally, like, physically, like, put
639
:fuel into a place where it can, like,
be lit on fire and generate electrons.
640
:And you're moving more towards, like,
these inverter based resources where, um,
641
:we call them variable renewable energy.
642
:So, um, they're not intermittent
per se, because I'm just
643
:like, turn on and turn off.
644
:Randomly, but they ramp up and
they ramp down according to,
645
:like, weather patterns and then.
646
:That combined with these, like,
dispatchable assets that are so digital
647
:and so flexible and also have a lot
of constraints on them is making the
648
:energy mix, like, a different problem.
649
:And I think the way, like,
markets have been set up.
650
:That has traditionally served the
fossil fuel industry for the past 100
651
:years are going to be forced to evolve.
652
:The question, I guess, is just
how fast does that happen?
653
:And at what point.
654
:Do we get, like, major sweeping
market structure changes.
655
:Um, to accommodate these
different types of resources.
656
:Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, I definitely
want to, uh, move into, um, chat about,
657
:you know, where you see the future.
658
:You touched on it just at the end of
there, um, on where you see the future
659
:of this industry going, but I first
want to go back to some things at the
660
:beginning of your answer around, um,
some of these, you know, situations that
661
:happen that are real life consequences
of like, you know, messing something up
662
:or not having the right infrastructure in
place or does not have the right policies
663
:in place to like deal with things.
664
:Have you experienced or do you
have, you know, if you have
665
:experiences where you, Okay.
666
:Something happens and you're like, you
know, this is why I'm in this industry.
667
:There's like, you know, I'm
doing this in order to prevent
668
:this scenario from happening.
669
:Or like, are you constantly
reminded of why you chose to be
670
:in the power electric industry?
671
:Emma Konet: Yeah, um, 2021 February
of:
672
:I mean, it hit other parts of the
country, but it hit Texas really bad.
673
:Um, and we lost power
in our house for like 2.
674
:5 days.
675
:And I think the temperature outside
is like 18 degrees, which for everyone
676
:who doesn't live in a warm place might
be like, that's not so cold, but in
677
:Texas, that's like an apocalyptic event.
678
:And the inside of my house,
like, obviously no power
679
:and I have electric heat.
680
:So, uh, the inside of my house was like.
681
:35 degrees and I was wearing my
ski gear and you know, my poor
682
:cat is like, what's going on?
683
:Like he's freezing and it's just
like, okay, yeah, this is a failure.
684
:This is a massive failure of
infrastructure and it's it's because
685
:of a event caused by climate change.
686
:Texas has gotten storms before and I will
say there's an element of like man made
687
:devastation like that event was caused
by generators not being winterized and
688
:it was kind of like the Swiss cheese
problem when you get all the holes
689
:line up and then you have a failure.
690
:Um, but certainly like, climate
change is making weather events like
691
:that worse and more catastrophic.
692
:I live in a place where we
get hurricanes regularly.
693
:Hurricanes.
694
:Blood, you know, like Hurricane
Harvey, I think it's:
695
:Um, yeah, I mean, I had friends with
water in their houses up to their
696
:roofs like these are devastating
events and, um, it just points.
697
:It's like the cyclical problem, right?
698
:Like, we keep burning fossil fuels to
build infrastructure, prevent damage
699
:from things that from climate events
that are caused by burning fossil fuels
700
:that are releasing carbon into the air.
701
:So it's like we need to cut that
cycle, that vicious cycle down.
702
:And we need to build
infrastructure that is clean.
703
:And then we also need to build,
you know, resilient buildings and
704
:homes that can withstand those types
of events because, like, they're
705
:not going to not happen anymore.
706
:I mean, we're, we're too deep
in this, like, to say that we're
707
:not going to get extreme weather
events over the next century.
708
:I think we certainly will.
709
:Um, but we, we have to stop
putting carbon into the atmosphere.
710
:Like, we, we just have to stop that.
711
:Um, and I, I think about a lot, like,
what's the consequence of like, you
712
:know, Turning the ship like too hard
in one direction where we like, you
713
:know, put an extreme carbon tax or
something that could like, you know,
714
:destroy the global economy or something.
715
:And like, that's not
the right answer either.
716
:Like it has to be a change over time.
717
:Um, but it absolutely has to be a change.
718
:And I think those are the types of things
that I think about and I'm like, okay,
719
:like what we're doing is really important
because I, I want to be able to have
720
:power in my house and I want to, you
know, like, I want our infrastructure
721
:to be able to like work properly and.
722
:I want other people in the world
that don't have access to power to
723
:have access to clean, affordable,
reliable power because it is so
724
:important for quality of life.
725
:Um, and and I think the way
we get there is not through.
726
:Burning more fossil fuels, I think
it's by by making clean energy
727
:infrastructure more accessible.
728
:Yeah, and I'm looking
729
:Jazmin Furtado: at the future.
730
:And moving towards, you know, we're, we're
trying to make the future greener, um,
731
:and, you know, we have to account for the
fact that we, we may experience these,
732
:you know, climate change situation that
they're just going to get worse over time.
733
:If we don't fix this problem now,
that brings me to the question
734
:of looking towards the future.
735
:Where do you really
see a lot of, you know.
736
:You know, places in your industry
really taking off or like, where,
737
:where people that are really data
minded, I really want to be able to
738
:use data to make better decisions.
739
:Like, where in this field, you see
that really growing and in really
740
:great need in the next few years.
741
:Emma Konet: I think
energy storage is a big 1.
742
:I think transmission infrastructure
is also a big 1 and a lot
743
:of these problems are like.
744
:Data engineering physics problems, right?
745
:Like not just pure data science.
746
:There's, you know, a lot
of other things going on.
747
:Um, but yeah, I think I
think those are kind of 2.
748
:Areas where I think we're going
to have to see a lot of growth.
749
:I mean, I think alternative technology
to we're going to run out of lithium.
750
:Like, that is pretty much for sure.
751
:Like, if we cannot build all the world's
batteries on lithium, um, that's just
752
:going to be a binding constraint.
753
:So we need something else.
754
:We need some other type
of battery technology.
755
:And there's there's other people
working on these types of problems.
756
:Um, you know, like form energy is,
is building an iron oxide battery.
757
:That's very long duration
and iron is very ubiquitous.
758
:So, um, that could be a
solution to the lithium problem.
759
:Um, so, you know, I think different
types of technology is important.
760
:Um, 1 thing I will say about, like,
the future is like, I have a really
761
:hard time imagining what power is
going to look like after, like, my
762
:horizon is kind of like 20 years.
763
:Because, like, after 20 years, when
you start to be, like, mostly renewable
764
:energy and batteries, the breakdown of
how people make money under current, like,
765
:constructs, I was kind of alluding to
this earlier, but, like, current market
766
:constructs, like, no longer make sense.
767
:Because basically, like, the way
power prices are determined is
768
:effectively based on, like, the
operational cost of generating power.
769
:And That usually is a is a derivative
of, like, fuel cost, like, gas prices
770
:and, um, coal prices and stuff.
771
:And, like, once those are no longer,
like, the primary assets on the
772
:grid, I'm like, I don't really
know how that's going to work.
773
:That's going to be an interesting problem.
774
:So I think that there's for me,
it's like, hard to imagine something
775
:where it's so vastly different
than the system we have today.
776
:Um.
777
:I don't know.
778
:I mean, it's gonna have to change.
779
:I have some maybe hunches that would
probably be too too technical to get
780
:into now, but, um, it's gonna be wild.
781
:I mean, the 1 thing I just hope for is
that we don't slow down, you know, like, I
782
:think there was like, a lot of hype about
clean energy, like, before:
783
:We had a global recession and like,
some investment dried up and it just
784
:kind of, it didn't like hold completely.
785
:Obviously, we kept building stuff, but the
like, whole hype cycle around, you know,
786
:startups that are doing like cool energy.
787
:Solving cool energy problems, like,
definitely slowed down and I just hope
788
:that we don't have that happen again.
789
:You know, it needs to be entrenched
enough into like, large corporations
790
:into people, like how people invest
and spend money, um, and their
791
:values that we continue to drive.
792
:This transition, um, forward, you
know, at the pace that that's the
793
:pace we're going now or faster and
794
:Jazmin Furtado: I have a speed
question for you as we wrap up here.
795
:Do if you're, you know, there's someone
who's not really familiar with industry.
796
:That's like, oh, actually,
everything that Emma's talking about.
797
:Really?
798
:It sounds really interesting.
799
:What do you what
800
:Emma Konet: advice do you have
801
:Jazmin Furtado: for people
who are interested in.
802
:The energy industry and want
to get involved, but, you know,
803
:but don't know where to start if
they're like, really into data.
804
:Yeah.
805
:Emma Konet: Yeah, um, there's a
podcast called bolts, um, that I
806
:really like that is, is exclusively
focused on like energy problems.
807
:Um, and, and a lot focused on electricity.
808
:Uh, so I think that's a
great podcast are great.
809
:I mean, I love, I love
listening to podcasts.
810
:I love being on podcasts.
811
:I think it's fun to talk about
things I'm passionate about.
812
:Um, I think that's honestly
the age of podcasts.
813
:You can learn so much, uh, just from
finding people that like, love to
814
:talk about these types of problems.
815
:And then, of course, you know, there's
a ton of academic literature out there.
816
:If you're into more reading, um, we
put a white paper out on our, our.
817
:Problem space on our website, if people
are interested in looking at that, you
818
:know, those are white papers are a good
way to kind of get by more bite size,
819
:less like academic, you know, like
journal article type information and more
820
:like, I don't know, possibly digestible.
821
:I guess.
822
:Um, I think that those are
really good places to start.
823
:And then, you know, I'll plug the my
climate journey is a slack community that.
824
:Has a ton of resources.
825
:Um, I do think you have to pay to join.
826
:It's like 100 bucks a year, but
I have met a lot of cool people
827
:that are working on cool problems.
828
:And my brother's on there, so I
chat with him sometimes on Slack.
829
:He works at a sustainable
aviation fuel company.
830
:Um, anyway, so, yeah, I think that
there's there's just a lot of resources
831
:within the climate community and then
that obviously touch on energy and
832
:specifically on renewable energy.
833
:As well, thank you
834
:Jazmin Furtado: for that.
835
:Um, so I wanted to end our
episode with around a factor
836
:fiction and I know that it.
837
:Wait, I want to wrap
this up in a few minutes.
838
:I know we're a little pressed for time.
839
:So I will, I won't, I won't go
through all 5 5 of them, but I'll,
840
:I'll go through at least 3 to
see if we can get through these.
841
:All right, so 1st question, 1st
statement, there are 4 major renewable
842
:energy sources, solar energy, geothermal
energy, wind energy, and hydropower.
843
:Factor
844
:Emma Konet: fiction.
845
:Yeah, I think that's true.
846
:Jazmin Furtado: Biomass is the fifth.
847
:It's like the largest one of
the renewable energy sources.
848
:Emma Konet: Biomass.
849
:Technically renewable,
but not carbon neutral.
850
:Oh,
851
:Jazmin Furtado: so interesting.
852
:Emma Konet: Yeah, that's interesting.
853
:Okay, so like half, half, half fiction.
854
:It's, yeah, I suppose it is renewable,
but I certainly wouldn't want to burn
855
:biofuels to supply the electric grid.
856
:Okay, fair.
857
:All right, second one.
858
:Jazmin Furtado: Um, let's see.
859
:Wind technicians are the 10th fastest
growing occupation in the United States.
860
:Yeah, that sounds
861
:Emma Konet: true.
862
:Sure.
863
:Jazmin Furtado: Am
864
:Emma Konet: I wrong on all
865
:Jazmin Furtado: of these?
866
:They're the second fastest
growing occupation in the U.
867
:S.
868
:Oh, wow.
869
:Second to
870
:Emma Konet: nurses.
871
:Yeah, right?
872
:Like, you wouldn't know that.
873
:Wow, that's surprising.
874
:I would have thought
it went the other way.
875
:I know wind technicians,
876
:Jazmin Furtado: you know growing industry.
877
:Emma Konet: Hey, that's awesome.
878
:Love to hear it.
879
:All right last one
880
:Jazmin Furtado: Morocco holds the world
record for most consecutive days using
881
:solely renewable energy at 300 days
882
:Emma Konet: Morocco,
883
:you know, I would guess it's Brazil
because I know they have like a
884
:super hydroelectric Power grid, but
I don't know much about Morocco.
885
:I'm gonna say false.
886
:That is correct.
887
:Jazmin Furtado: It is Costa Rica,
which I was like, Oh, Costa Rica.
888
:Yeah.
889
:So there you go.
890
:Learn something, learn something new.
891
:There are a couple other ones, but I
think those ones you would have gotten
892
:right based off of just our conversation.
893
:Emma Konet: I'm one for three,
so, you know, not great.
894
:I'll give you the other two.
895
:I'll say you got three
896
:Jazmin Furtado: for five because
I'm assuming you're going
897
:to get the other ones right.
898
:Okay.
899
:All right.
900
:Thank you, Emma.
901
:Thank you so much for being here.
902
:Allowing, allowing me and all those
that are tuning in the opportunity to
903
:learn so much more about energy and
how people like yourself are using
904
:data to make for like a greener future.
905
:I really look forward to
seeing you're following your.
906
:Electrifying journey as you work to surge
this industry forward, I had to like run
907
:out of time because I would not have come
up with those plans by myself, just on
908
:Emma Konet: the fly.
909
:Um, but
910
:Jazmin Furtado: yeah, I know I learned, I
learned a lot more about the industry than
911
:I did than I knew before we were chatting.
912
:So thank you for breaking all
that down for me and, and for
913
:those that are listening in.
914
:Um, I know that they as well
learn something new just from
915
:listening to this conversation.
916
:Emma Konet: Awesome.
917
:I really appreciate it.
918
:I appreciate you inviting me on here.
919
:Thanks so much.
920
:Of course.
921
:Jazmin Furtado: And lastly, I need
to, of course, thank you, Hatch IT for
922
:sponsoring this episode on the peer
program and allowing me the creative
923
:freedom to host the series and chat with
super interesting people and be introduced
924
:to super interesting people like Emma.
925
:Lastly, as always, I'd like to thank you,
the listener for tuning into this episode
926
:and exploring the world of data with us.
927
:Thank you everyone.
928
:Take care.
929
:Tim Winkler: Calling all
startup technologists.
930
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931
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932
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933
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934
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935
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936
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937
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940
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942
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944
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