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In this episode...

Understanding Soul Care with Greg Woodard

https://faithfulontheclock.com/understanding-soul-care-with-greg-woodard

Wellness has become a trillion-dollar industry, but are you caring for your soul? Episode 147 of Faithful on the Clock welcomes guest Greg Woodard to help you understand soul care and how to approach it.

Timestamps:

[00:04] - Intro

[00:43] - Greg’s background

[04:10] - Definition of soul care and differentiation from self care

[08:14] - The four main elements of soul care

[11:05] - Why soul care is critical for leaders

[13:02] - Jesus practicing soul care in Scripture

[15:25] - How practicing soul care changes the way we hear God’s voice

[18:30] - Advice for those who feel too busy for soul care

[25:51] - How Greg takes help when he needs it; how start taking help and the value of having many people who can contribute

[31:17] - Options to get started with soul care

[35:36] - Surprising elements Greg encountered when writing his book

[40:27] - Our identity as God’s beloved versus being valued for doing tasks

[47:05] - The importance of soul care for reconnecting to God; the gap between knowing what’s right and doing what’s right and why it’s normal for the doing to lag behind the knowing

[51:09] - How to learn more about and connect with Greg

[52:02] - Prayer

[53:18] - Outro/What’s coming up next

Key takeaways:

1. Soul care is a holistic practice where the soul, body, mind, and emotions are all interconnected. It involves caring for multiple parts of ourselves at once to achieve ideal wellness.
2. Soul care requires acknowledging and embracing who God really made you to be — that is what you protect in your practice. Because everyone is unique, their soul care practice also must be unique, built on distinct, personal rhythms or structures. What works for one person will not necessarily work for another.
3. Soul care is especially important for leaders because they tend to be so busy and have heavy responsibility. It’s a reiteration of the advice to fill your cup first so you can pour out.
4. Scripture demonstrates Jesus practicing soul care, particularly in the way He retreated from the crowds for private time with God.
5. Soul care encourages us to slow down in a way that makes it easier to hear God’s voice. Greg’s view thus is that if you can’t take time for soul care, you’re too busy! Our calendars reveal what our priorities really are, meaning that time for soul care and God should be there. Community is essential in ensuring we can carve out time for soul care and don’t have to be responsible for everything alone. Many people can fill many small needs we have — we don’t necessarily have to depend on one person.
6. Soul care can include a plethora of different activities. Be willing to try a bunch of options to find what works for you, rather than assuming it doesn’t work because the first one or two things you experimented with weren’t successful.
7. While writing his book, Greg was surprised at how important it was to look at his emotions and respectfully say no to others. He found it helpful to have others check on how he was doing — developing a personal board of directors of people who truly care about you and not your accolades helps this consistently happen.
8. Leaders often focus on what they do and take their identity from it. But Greg focuses on the fact he’s simply God’s beloved — we all are. We are precious to Him just because we are His children who give Him joy. The story of the Prodigal Son exemplifies that.
9. In preparing for his book launch, Greg struggled with overwhelm. He recognized that he wasn’t living a lot of what he preached. Many of us are in a similar position, whether in everyday life or our faith — it’s normal for there to be a gap between what we know is right to do and actually completing the practice. Scripture reflects even the early disciples understanding Jesus’ teaching but still struggling with sin. But we can be self-forgiving and recommit to growth within our practice, and we don’t have to wait for perfection before we share the good things that we know.

• Leading Without Burning Out — Gregory Woodard
• Leadership from Within | Discover Your Leadership Potential — Gregory Woodard
• Gregory Woodard | Transform Your Life Now

CTAs:

1. Self assess your current soul care practice. Identify which areas are strong or weak.
2. Select one activity to try for soul care this week.

What’s coming up next:

We all want to grow ourselves and our businesses. But Episode 148 of Faithful on the Clock looks at a paradox — our ability to connect deeply in a way that builds trust can diminish the bigger or more popular we get.

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Thibodeaux

Hello, all you listeners out there. It’s time for a podcast, and this podcast is Faithful on the Clock, the show for Christian professionals where every dog retrieves a pheasant to get your faith and work aligned. Now, we all know it’s important to take care of yourself. That message is everywhere with burnout being as common as it is, right? But how are you doing really taking care of your inner self, your soul? My guest today is Greg Woodard, and we’re chatting all about soul care to give you some support. Here we go.

Thibodeaux

Well, thank you, everyone for listening to Faithful on the Clock. Today, I am chatting with veteran spiritual director and life and leadership coach Greg Woodard. Greg has literally written the book on soul care. He's the author of “Leadership from Within, Navigating the Path Towards Soul-Driven Success.” So, I've brought him on the show today to make sure that we all understand exactly what soul care is and how it can help us in both our careers and personal lives. So, Greg, welcome to Faithful on the Clock.

Woodard

Thank you. It's very nice to be here, Wanda. I appreciate the invite.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, of course. So, I — just to get started, why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself and your background?

Woodard

I'll give you the short version. I could go on and on, on and on and on. So, I basically divide my life up into three parts. The part one is before marriage. I spent a normal childhood, and then after high school, decided it was either — I decided college wasn't for me, or college decided it wasn't for me. But I did three semesters in college and did not do well, so I decided the next best thing was to join the Marine Corps. So, I spent my young adult life in the service of our country, in the Marines, did a tour in Okinawa, and then did the rest of my time in California, six years, and then I left the service. And then when — I joined the National Guard for a few months, just to kind of see if I wanted to go back in the military, and ultimately decided that I didn't. Fast forward, during that season, I completed my college degree. Packed four years of college into 10 years of my life. So, I graduated from a small school in Minneapolis. Along that journey, I met — I started on staff at a — at a large local church, and then met my wife and then left that staff. After a short time there, again, another probably more me than them, but it was not the right fit, so, my wife and I married, I left the staff. Then fast forward through we had two children. I have a lovely daughter and a wonderful son, both adults living their lives. My daughter lives here, close in — nearby with our — with her husband and our grandson. And then my son is in — serves with Youth With A Mission in Kona, Hawaii. So, that's the, like, the before and then right after marriage. And then during that latter season of after marriage, about 10 years in, I felt like God was calling me back to military service. I ended up in the Navy chaplaincy through a variety of sequences of events. My dad died during that season. Before that, that was sort of like the — kind of the push towards something different, looking at my legacy. So, I ended up back in the military. And then the third phase is the phase I'm in now, and it's — I'm retired from the military. I retired from Naval chaplaincy, and now I am an author and a spiritual director in training, and a proud grandfather and a proud parent and a husband to a lovely wife. My wife and I have been married for 27 years.

Thibodeaux

Okay. So, as you are going through all of that, this kind of, as you said, you are an author now, and I understand that your latest book, which you mentioned at the top of the show, really focuses on soul care. So, just in layman's terms, can you describe, what is soul care? And you know, how is it different from the popular idea of self care that we talk about all the time?

Woodard

Yeah, I would — I would love to read a definition of soul care, if that's okay.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

I — I found a book to be very helpful in my journey. It was sort of after I left the military. I wouldn't say I was burned out, but I needed — I needed a reset. I read a book called From Burned Out to Beloved by a lady named Bethany Dearborn Heiser. She's a trauma-informed social worker. And in the book, she tells the story of her own burnout in the — in the Type A personality and the kind of environment that might — it included a lot of work with a lot of really, really people that really need a lot of help, sexual assault victims and a variety of other things she did as a social worker. And she burned out during that season. And she writes this. This is how she defines — and I found this to be the best — best definition of soul care. “Soul care doesn't just mean spiritual care. It means tending to our inner cycle, spiritual self, which affects our whole self. The Hebrew understanding of self is holistic, with body, soul, and spirit being interdependent. We are complex, intertwined beings with our soul, body, mind, and emotions all amazingly interconnected.” Now, that may not have been a lay definition of soul care, but for me, the bottom line of that definition is holistic. Body — soul, body, mind, and emotions are all interconnected, and we have to take care of all of them to have a holistic sense of self. Now, how does it differ, then, from self care? Maybe it includes, I — I — I think it's important to understand that soul care isn't just spiritual. It includes the spiritual. And maybe when we think of secular definitions of soul care, we don't think of the spiritual as much. Maybe we're thinking more of — of getting rest, replenishing our energy. Soul care, as I define it, as I — as I think Heiser defines it, is — is holistic. And that's — to me, self care can certainly be holistic in a certain sense. But I think that the big — the big takeaway for me is it includes that spiritual component and really taking a deep look at our inner self. That's how I define soul care.

Thibodeaux

Sure. I know when I hear self care, I always think of things that we can do for ourselves. You know, you take the bubble bath, or you meditate or do those things. But if you take the holistic view of that, that can be so many things, you know, and it's not even necessarily doing, it can just be laying on the floor, giving yourself whatever you need to feel like who you are. And maybe — maybe that's kind of how I would define soul care, is like, who God made you to be, are you taking care of that, like, and really get in touch with the real person you are, whatever that you know, whatever you need to be that.

Woodard

Yeah, I agree. I think one of the foundational elements of soul care is really knowing who you are. I really believe in knowing yourself, knowing your personality, knowing who God created you to be. I think when you're informed about your — yourself, you can do better self-leadership. You can take care of the things…my — my version of soul care is a — is a bit different than what my wife would do, for example. She has a different personality. Practices that work for me don't always work for her. Now, there's some commonalities. I think there's some structural things that are part of — of the — of the best definition. I mean, I'm a little biased, and I just wrote a book on it —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

But I think the structural definition of soul care goes across the spectrum of — of people, but the practices within are going to be very personal.

[8:14]

Thibodeaux

Sure. So, can you tell me a little bit more — and you had mentioned them just briefly, but there are the four main elements that you really focus on in soul care.

Woodard

Sure. So, I think of relational, spiritual, emotional, and physical. Relational is meaningful — meaningful connection with other people, personally, professionally, your friend network. You know, extroverts and introverts are going to have a lot of friends or fewer friends, but it's — the point is this meaningful connection. Spiritual is this idea of listening to God. We're — we're attuning ourselves to — to, in the Christian tradition, to our — to God, to Jesus. We're allowing the Holy Spirit to be part of our journey. Emotions, that's where we're engaging our feelings, with discernment. Sometimes — I'll speak for me as a man. Sometimes, I have to be pushed to understand what I'm feeling about certain things. I can maybe express the generality of emotion, but it's really getting attuned, being attuned to your feelings, how [you’re] feeling about something. And the physical is wellness, this idea of taking care of our — our physical self, getting plenty of rest, eating well, exercising, getting outside for a nice walk, whatever that looks like. So, relational, spiritual, emotional, and physical.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, I wanted to make sure that we covered all of those, again, because we had said that this is kind of a holistic thing, but also to help us recognize that there are multiple areas that we need to look at when we talk about this. And I think some of us have — are — we're really good at taking care of ourselves in one of those areas.

Thibodeaux

Like, maybe —

Woodard

Sure.

Thibodeaux

— we always meditate in the morning, or maybe —

Woodard

Right. Right.

Thibodeaux

— we always do our jogging and we eat right. But to look at them all and to say, are we really — are we really making sure that we are doing this more in a more holistic, comprehensive way, so that we recognize everything that God, you know, made us to be and that we need within that, I think that's really important, because otherwise we will miss things. And if we miss things, we will not be well, right? So, I think it's really important that you, you mentioned all of those.

Woodard

Yeah, and that's — I think that's why the structure of it helps. I mean, I think if we can build practices, and — and — I call them rhythms — we build practices within each of these rhythms, then we have a holistic way, and we have to plan. Maybe along the way, I'll tell you some of the — the genesis of this framework. But we have to plan before when life gets really busy. We both talked about it, but before we started recording that things are busy, and you have to plan for building in these kinds of practices in your life before — before you get into the place where you're getting overwhelmed and — and knowing how you structure your life to allow for some of that busyness to be abated when we when we pull back a little bit.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, well, I wanted to really make sure that we had a good understanding of what soul care is. Because now I would like to ask you, once we know what it is, why is this so critical, not just, you know, in general, but like, specifically for leaders?

Woodard

Wow, that's a big question. You know, I know leaders are busy. They, generality, tend to be driven. They have some sense of there's a great deal of responsibility that's placed on them. And my background is — is in the clergy world. So, I think in — in the church setting, or in my own prior career, how many people were always asking me for things. They wanted something from me, or they — I — I — I should say that they needed something from me. And I was honored to be able to offer them whatever it was that they needed. But one of the things that I knew they needed when they came in to see me is, they needed my presence. And if I wasn't taking care of myself in a holistic way, if I wasn't getting rest, if I wasn't connecting with my family, if I wasn't checking in on my emotions, if I wasn't devoting myself relationally to God, then I had a harder time being present, especially when I was tired. When I was tired, it was like, I don't want to talk to you.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

I wanna get this conversation done, and you can move on with your day.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, I have to admit, I relate. I — I — I do.

Woodard

Yeah. So, you know, we — I had to make sure that I — it was my responsibility to make sure that I was taking care of myself so I could be available for the people that the organization was paying me, and also my calling was calling on me to — to provide for them. I was caring for them, and by caring for myself, I was caring for them.

Thibodeaux

Sure, I think it said —

Woodard

That's why it's important. Sorry, I didn't mean to over talk you.

Thibodeaux

No, that's okay. All I was going to say is that I think it's kind of a reiteration of this idea that you need to fill your cup first before you can pour out. But when you mentioned presence, I wanna go back to that for just a little second, because it automatically brings to my head, God being present with us. And so, I'm kind of wondering, well, if we were to talk to Jesus, what — how would He have practiced this soul care? Or did He? Like, if we — if we look at the Bible, how do we see Him doing that through Scripture?

Woodard

Well, look in the — in the gospels, and see how many times it talks about Jesus pulling away. And you know, He spent the first 40 days of His ministry being alone, alone with God in this — in a — in a — in a fasting posture, in a listening posture. And it says at the end that the angels came to take care of Him. So, I think you know if we are — if — if — if — if Jesus — so, the answer to — my answer to your question is, yes, Jesus practiced soul care, and He did it faithfully. He never — He — He — He was available for people, but He also took time away from people. There were times where He said — I suppose He probably pulled His disciples aside and said, “Hey, I — I need to take a break.” Because we — we have to remember, Jesus was God, but Jesus lived as a human being when He was amongst us. So, Jesus needed rest. He was hungry. He needed time of separation from people, because people were always asking Him for things. And so, Jesus did — I — probably is the greatest example of taking care of Himself. Now, doing soul care. Now, it looked differently back then. I mean, they didn't he — he — they — they walked everywhere. So, he was getting an exercise. He was outside. He was with people. He was — He was connected in a — in a unique — in a unique way spiritually. I'm sure He had a strong sense of — we see it in the Garden of — of Gethsemane, this deep connection with His own inner turmoil, his own inner — inner emotions. So, yes, I think Jesus practiced soul care.

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

Is probably the perfect example of somebody who practiced soul care.

Thibodeaux

So, if we think of soul care and how Jesus kind of did it, in your experience, how does practicing soul care maybe change the way we hear God's voice, if at all?

Woodard

Well, Dallas Willard, famous author of — of — he died 10 or 15 years ago. He was a spiritual — a leader in the spiritual formation world, especially in the evangelical part of the Christian faith. He taught at University of Southern California as a philosophy professor, but he's probably most famous for all of his spiritual writings. And there's a story told by John Ortberg. John Ortberg was a disciple of — of — of Willard, and Ortberg tells a story of one day — one day — and at this time he was pastoring. He tells a story of going to see Dallas, probably a regular meeting that they had. And he said, “Well, what do you recommend for me in this season of my life?” And — or, “How can — how can I get better?” And Dallas was always known to be very considered in his responses. And he was very calm and took a while to respond. And he said, “You need to ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your life.” And John was like, “Okay, that's good. What else?” Dallas stopped, again considered and looked at him and said, “There is nothing else.” Dallas' point was that hurry is a barrier. When we're in a hurry, we don't connect as well. We don't hear God's voice as well. When I'm in a hurry — I mean, I can think of it as a — as a married man, 27 years with my wife. If she needs my attention and I'm in too much of a hurry, I'm not going to hear her. This happened just a couple nights ago. I was doing something that seemed important to me, and she was saying something, and then she’s like, “Did you even hear me?”

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And I hadn't, because I was in too much of a hurry, not consciously, but —

Thibodeaux

Right.

Woodard

— something that I was working on or doing or reading or whatever it was. The point is, we can't let anything be more important than our relationship with God. And so, I think if we can slow ourselves down, and we are — and we are whole people, and we're living a holistic life, we're — we're going to be better able to hear God's voice. It says, you know, we — God speaks in the — in the, you know, I know God can speak in bold ways.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

But I — I think that it's — it's more common that God speaks in a still, small, quiet way, and we really have to be listening for Him to be able to speak to us.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, I know that there would be many, many professionals out there who would agree with you, but then they would say, “Oh, well, you know — you know, you just don't know what my calendar is like. I have all these responsibilities. How in the world can I possibly slow down?” So, what would you say to those people knowing the value of soul care but maybe they're — they're just — they don't see a logistical way, like, how could — and they eliminate that drive from the outside that can get in the way.

Woodard

Yeah, well, I'd like to just offer a challenge. I don't — I don't think there's any excuse for not taking care of your soul. If you're a Christian leader, whether you're in the business world or in a clergy setting or a nonprofit, you know, we can talk about self care for people that aren't in the Christian space, but if we're talking about Christians, there's no — there's no — I — I have a hard time finding reasons why a leader can't carve out space. It might be small. It might have to be planned in advance, and you might have to begin to change some rhythms, but if you don't have time for soul care, then you're too busy. And I know that's very simplistic for me to say, because I'm in a different season of my life, and I don't want that to come off as — as — as terribly simplistic. But what needs to change if you don't have time for soul care.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, I had a previous guest, Lissa Figgins, she was on the show, and one of the things that she calls herself is — she calls her — a time steward, because her whole idea is that time is something that God has given us. It is a gift, and we can choose how we direct that time. And so, that kind of really struck with me, — or stuck with me. So, it strikes me here that it — when we look at our time, and — I mean, the business world is all about stealing that away from us, right? And if we put it in the context of soul care, and we kind of honor ourselves, and if we say, there is nothing that God makes that's not valuable. And if you say we are the most valuable thing God made, why wouldn't we want to kind of honor Him by honoring ourselves and taking care of ourselves as that masterpiece that He has made? That's kind of the way that I see it. So, if you are not prioritizing our — we — if we're not prioritizing ourselves and other people, like, that's kind of missing the point. I mean, it's — it becomes worldly at that point —

Woodard

Yeah.

Thibodeaux

— to do anything else. Does that make sense?

Woodard

Yeah, it makes total sense. Because I'll tell you, if — if that — we don't use this — in this society, everything's digital, so we don't use checkbooks anymore, as — as — as often. My wife still writes checks once in a while. But typically, we don't write too many checks. But it used to be that when I heard people talk about money, they could say — they would — they'd say, you know, if you're — you're telling me that your priorities with your money is — is to give to the things of God, or to be — be a steward, to be a wise steward of the income that God has given to you. Well, hand me your checkbook and let me see what has been recorded there, and I'll tell you what your priorities are.

Thibodeaux

Right.

Woodard

And we might say the same thing about our calendars. It's not easy to carve space out, and I know some leaders are — are incredibly busy and have a lot of responsibility. But we do have to be stewards. It's just like with our bodies, with our minds, with our hearts, with our spirits, we have to be good stewards of us, of ourselves as people. It's the same with our calendar. If it's not reflecting on our calendar, then it's really not a priority.

Thibodeaux

Right. One thing that I am thinking, too, is that, when we think about how we handle our time, I think some of the reason why we get so caught up, and not — the idea that we don't have enough time, is because we try to do it all of — all on our own. And so, that's kind of where I get back to the idea of community. And I think Scripture would support that, you know, that we are — especially, like, Galatians 6:2, like, we are supposed to help each other and carry each other's burdens. And I think at least in our culture, my view is that we've kind of forgotten that, and we've kind of forgotten the idea that other people can be our safety net. And of course, God can be too, you know. But we are supposed to look to other people to help us. And so, I think some of the reason why soul care is so difficult, or it might be for some people, is — you know, they just have so many legitimate things, like, you know, like, they're caring for parents. They're caring for kids at the same time. Maybe they have to work two jobs just to pay the bills. There's so many things that are legitimate. But if we could take away a little bit of that pressure by helping each other a little bit more, maybe it would get a little bit easier to say, very directly, “Hey, I need this help. Can you help?” You know, and see what everybody can give. You know, it's kind of like that old story of Stone Soup, where every — there wasn't enough for everybody, but when everybody gave just a little bit, it was sufficient. So, that's kind of, you know, where my mind goes with this, is that if we help each other, maybe — maybe it's doable, more doable than we think.

Woodard

Yeah, I think that's where the body of Christ comes in. You know, we also live in a culture where — where we are a bit disconnected. Sometimes, our personalities — I’m — I don't like to ask for help.

Thibodeaux

Me, either, just so you know.

Woodard

I have somebody close to me that has a hard time asking for help —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— because this person is a helper of others. That's what I've done for my career. But I — I — I — I've acknowledged over time, and had to learn over time, that there are times where I need to ask for help. I try to encourage people to share that. Because part of — part of being a member of the — of the Body of Christ is that we help each other, and it's not as common in many ways in our culture.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

I think you're — I think you're really on to something.

Thibodeaux

Well, I think, too, especially in the leadership space, I think that is one of the biggest reasons why it's an issue. Because leaders, they are, as you I think mentioned earlier in the show, like, they are used to doing things for other people, solving the problems, being the helper. And so —

Woodard

Right.

Thibodeaux

— they get used to that role. And so, to take help, I think can start to feel very foreign for them after a while. So, then it becomes harder and harder for them to say, “You know, I can't do this on my own. I need somebody to do something, whether it's watching —

Woodard

Right.

Thibodeaux

— my kids for a night or something, and they just get in the habit of it, essentially,

Woodard

Yeah. I — I am right there. That's exactly the way that I have lived part of my professional life.

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

I'm the one that's providing the care and concern for others, and I need to just tough it out when I don't feel like helping somebody else.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And certainly, there's some — a little bit of legitimacy to that.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

But at the end of the day, we have to be — being willing to ask for help from somebody else. And when we do, we do better. When we don't, that's when we have start to have some problems in our life.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, can you just tell us, you know, as we're talking about, you know, being willing to take help, how do you personally take help when you need it? Like, what are some ways that you could go to people you know that are maybe easier for you? Or what are some ways that, if people struggle with this, that they could maybe get a start on that, maybe, if they're not used to it?

Woodard

Yeah, well, I think of — of a particular time in my life, we were going through some challenges in — in a personal part of our life, and I also had to professionally be a caregiver. And it was — it was — there — there were some traumas during that time that were difficult to navigate, and I had to proactively find somebody. The — the people that were surrounding me in my professional environment weren't — weren't available for a variety of reasons. So, I had to — I had to proactively find somebody. I think it's important to, you know, I — I'm an introvert. It's easy for me to stay closed up. This is my home office. I close up here and just stay and just ride it out. It's just me.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And then my wife gets home, it's me and her. But I have to find ways to bring other people into my life. So, you know, finding that — might be just a few, a handful of people that you can spend time with on a regular basis. I've had — I've — I've — I needed to reengage with a — with the men's group, an infinity group that is not — again, part of my life, just something that — that gives me some — some space to be able to share with people that are peers. I always think, you know, when I was serving on active duty, I — I — it was very easy for me to get stuck in my — this is when I was on board a ship. It was very easy for me to get stuck in my stateroom. So, where I did my professional work. I did my counseling —

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

— there, as well, with people, and I had to make sure that I wasn't always just being the chaplain.

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

I had to make sure that I had peer connections, you know, so I would — I — I found a few friends, and I could go to their office and just hang out, you know, just as — just as Greg. You know, so, that's — those are, I mean, I think, you know, identifying those two or three or a handful, maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's a counselor, maybe it's just a friend, maybe it's a coach, who — whoever it is, maybe it's your spouse, just finding regular opportunities to stay connected with people that don't really — it's probably the wrong way to say it — that — that aren't as concerned about who you are professionally, but are more concerned about

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— who you are personally.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. I understand. One thing that I have had to really learn as I have reached out to people is that — I mean, I think we always kind of hope that we will find the person, right, who will just, like, be with us through thick and thin, and hopefully, some of us will find that person, whether it's a spouse or anybody else. But I have kind of learned myself that it's very rare for one person to be everything to you, like, I can't talk about my husband to my husband, you know what I mean?

Woodard

Exactly.

Thibodeaux

Like, and just complain and lament about him. Like, I need somebody else for that. And so if — if — you know what I'm talking about.

Woodard

No, I know what you said. I know what you’re saying.

Thibodeaux

And same back for him. You know, he can't — he needs somebody to, you know, lament about me, too. So, but the idea there is that, if nobody can be everything to everybody, it's okay to have a lot of people who fill very small needs for us. Like, one person does not have to be everything. We just have to be open to looking to what that person can give and what we can give back and see if there's a match somewhere. Because maybe — maybe they're really good at — it — you know, when we think about spiritual gifts, maybe they're really good at encouraging us, and somebody else is — hey they’re — they'll whip up a meal for us or something. But we don't have to get all of it in one place. We can — we can dabble everywhere to meet the needs that we've got, and vice versa, to give.

Woodard

Yeah, I agree. It's a little bit of a different context, but I call that a personal board of directors —

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

— a group of people that you've identified that — and that's not original with me, but it's a people — it's a group of people that you identify as meeting specific needs that you have for some accountability, maybe for some relationship, maybe for some therapy, maybe for some coaching. And you know what? I also find my dog to be very cathartic.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

He and I have conversations, and — they're usually one way.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

He doesn't usually respond, but I can emote to him in a unique way.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. I —

Woodard

And he wags his tail every time I walk in the door.

Thibodeaux

I relate very much. I've got a little Yorkshire Terrier, and he's my buddy, you know. So, when I'm upset, yeah, I'll cuddle him. So, anybody who's got a fur baby out there, yeah, you can go to those too. It feels a need. It certainly does.

Woodard

I agree. I'm not ashamed to admit it —

Thibodeaux

Yep.

Woodard

— and I’m a guy.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. You know, God made those for a reason, too. And I think that's part of it, for sure.

Woodard

I agree.

Thibodeaux

Well, if somebody is listening, and you know, you said, I believe earlier, you know, that — you know, like, what you do for soul care might not match what your wife does or somebody else. So, if they're listening to you and they say, “Okay, well, he does this,” what would be some kind of, I don't want to say universal starting points, but what are some things that people could try that are just kind of, maybe a little bit of smorgasbord to just say, here are some options to — just to get you started, try something?

Woodard

Okay, so let's see. Let's just take them one at a time. So, in the physical realm, maybe we — maybe we commit to getting outside for 10 minutes a day, taking a short walk.

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

I think most people could go outside for a walk at some point during the day, and maybe it's — maybe you need to go with somebody that you can relate to, that you can have a relational connection with. I tend to walk alone, or excuse me, me and my dog. But I like to — and with my wife, but I don't — I'm not a social exerciser. My wife is much different. She likes to have sociability while she's exercising. So, that — that kind of hits two points, maybe. We have — we schedule a time for coffee with a friend. Maybe someone you haven't seen for a while, or maybe it's somebody that you've had some close relationship with but you haven't met with for a while. And — and then maybe in the emotional realm, writing down — starting your day off by writing down three things that you're grateful for and that maybe provides you with an opportunity to avoid some of the negative thoughts that might be encroaching upon you. And then maybe in the — in the spiritual realm, carving out a few minutes for silence and solitude. Silence and solitude can hit a lot of different areas. When you're silent and quiet and have some solitude, it could open up some space in a lot of areas. It's a way to look at yourself from the emotional aspect, but it's also a time where we are stopping. Remember the earlier part about Willard's comment about avoiding hurry. When we when we stop, that's where God's going to be able to speak to us. So, taking five minutes, start off with five minutes, maybe read a passage of scripture, and then just sit silently for — for a few minutes. So, those are four, four or five, just real simple practices that that maybe people could try and don't require a lot of bandwidth —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— a lot of time.

Thibodeaux

Well, I asked that because, you know, again, just to recognize that everybody is very unique, very individual, but also to just give us a sense that, hey, you know, this is doable. You know, when you hear soul care, you might think of maybe something more elevated, but it can be very grounded and become a nice practice that you do with things that feel comfortable for you, or that, you know maybe over time, can get you out of boxes a little bit so that you feel more ease, maybe if you've got anxiety or something, so that you are becoming more of yourself, more authentic, more of who you got to be. So, I think that there are many angles to it, and I don't think we should necessarily say, “Oh, well, that one didn't work for me, therefore, soul care just doesn't work,” right? I think we got to give it —

Woodard

No. Right.

Thibodeaux

Right?

Woodard

You might have to try — you might have to try different things.

Thibodeaux

Right.

Woodard

You may not find that — that journaling, for example, I like to journal. Not everybody's a journaler. I think people — I think people can benefit from journaling, and I have a bias towards it. But that isn't necessarily the case for everybody. But there has to be some way of — of putting some thoughts somewhere where they're not — where they can get out of your head. But yeah. So, there's all kinds of examples. Not everybody's going to enjoy, you know, running or whatever it is, you know, biking. They have their own form of exercise that's important to them. But the commonality is, try to do it outside, at least a little bit of it, and that can meet a lot of — a lot of —

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

— your emotional and physical and — and — it's interesting for me how God connects — I connect with God in nature. So, getting into a place where I have a natural environment around me —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— is always helpful.

Thibodeaux

So —

Woodard

Yes, it's very personal. Very personal.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Yeah. So, when you were working on this book and kind of developing these concepts around soul care, you know, and — and figuring out what worked for you, was there anything that kind of surprised you? You know, that kind of said, “Hey, I didn't realize that would come out.”

Woodard

You know, this came out of my experience as a chaplain onboard a ship being deployed. And I — I think maybe I didn't recognize enough how important it was to — to — to really look at my emotions and not just like — it's like, really thinking about, how am I feeling? What are — what's really going on behind this sense of whatever it was that I was experiencing emotionally. So, I think that's maybe the one that — and you know, that was one that was really — that was really key. And I think, too, I recognized — when I — when I — sometimes, I did have to shut my door and have some alone time, and I had to say no. It's hard to say no on a deployment, because you're —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— expected, as the professional caregiver, to give and to — and to be available. And I didn't — I don't — I didn't begrudge that. But sometimes, I had to tell my assistant, like, “I just need a little space.” And it was also helpful for me to have him to say, you know, observe me, “How are you doing?” And maybe he was asking me. So, I had — I had a handful of people that I asked them to, you know, check in on me periodically to make sure I wasn't over — overextending myself and exceeding my bandwidth. Because I think even caregivers, maybe even mostly — most of the time, all the time, caregivers need to make sure that they have somebody checking on them and really helping them to dial in who they are as people and — and checking on what kind of stuff are you carrying from all the different things that you're having to take in from people.

Thibodeaux

Well —

Woodard

Those are just a handful of things that surprise me.

Thibodeaux

Okay. Well, I know for myself, you know, as you're talking there, I know in my own experience, I do have a tendency to kind of take on a lot, and I think that that is very common in leadership. You know, that you — you don't say no a lot, and you get used to having the responsibility and handling things. And people get used to seeing you handle all of that and taking on the responsibility, and they think that you are fine. And then they do not ask if you are fine. So this —

Woodard

No, it’s true.

Thibodeaux

— idea of — you know, that you — you do check up on other people, I think, is so important, because when we are performing well, I talk about this all the time, that sometimes, when we are performing the best is when we're the worst off. Because we can send this message that, you know, “I'm fine.” Oh, I have — but in our heads, it's like, “Well, I have to do it.” So, we're totally stressed out, and we don't know how to ask for help. We don't know how to ask, “Hey, would you check on me because I'm not doing so great.” Like, and that — we have that conflict all the time of why I've got to do these things. People will look down on me if I don't do these things, but we don't know how to, like, say I need some support through it. Just let me know that you're there. Does that make sense?

Woodard

No, that makes total sense. And I think that's where that idea of a board of directors comes in. People that don't care — this is, like, a really bold way to say this — they don't care about your professional accolades. They don't care about the book you wrote. They don't care about if you're in, like in the — you know, they don't care about the bottom line of the financials. They don't care about — about the last sermon you preached.

Thibodeaux

Right.

Woodard

What they care about is who you are as a person, and how are the most important people in your life. So, if you're — if you're — if you're a family person, a person that's married, that has children, reminding the leader that they're more important than any of your professional aspirations or accomplishments. And if they're not doing okay, well, there's a question about whether you're doing okay as a leader.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, I always ask myself to based on my own experience, would other people know that I care about them without the things that they're doing. Like, no task, like, just like, just them as a person. Have I let them know that I value them just for that? Not for anything that they are accomplishing. Because to me, if I'm not doing that, then I'm not recognizing them the way God meant them to be. I'm just recognizing the stuff they're getting done. And those are two very, very different things, and I think we definitely need to understand that we are accepted just for being human being, not for what we do. I mean, that's the message of the culture, right? You have to do to

Woodard

Right.

Thibodeaux

— earn your worth, right?

Woodard

Do to earn your worth. Yep.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

I have a prompt in my journal that I fill in every morning, and the question is, who does God say that you are? And my opening — my — my — my first response is, I am God's beloved. I write that every morning, and it's — I am God's beloved. And there's a period after beloved and there's nothing else.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

Because that reminds me that it's not about what I do. I am — I'm a task oriented person, and I like to accomplish. I like to check the next task off my list.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, me too.

Woodard

Yeah. And most leaders are. And most leaders have to be at some level. But that can't be the definition of who you are. At the end of your career, who's going to be sitting on the front row? So, in the military, we have — we always have a big ceremony that's part of — of a retirement. And I remember saying this at my ceremony, like, who's going to be on the front row at your retirement? I was looking out at the sea of chaplains and other military members. And if your family's not on the front row, then — might have had all the success professionally in the world, but are you really a success?

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

I don't know that's fair. I don't mean that to be judgmental. That's not my intent. But I really think that when we can look at the future and think about what do I want in the future, and how that could inform the way we live today, and it might — it might or might not change our daily — our daily habits.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, one thing that I have, especially over this last year, come to really think about is, like, you know, you use that word beloved, which is a great word. But then I always have, and we — I think we hear it in church a lot, too. Oh, well, God loves you. Jesus loves you. Well, that's certainly true. But then I cannot stop myself from asking, okay, well, why? And most people that I have talked to don't answer that. Not really. Why does God love you? I don't know. Like, He just does. And they don't go any deeper. And for me, the answer has been, because we give God joy. God is a God of joy. We are made in His image. And so, our only job, our only purpose, is to reflect that back to Him. That's why we are beloved — to me, anyway. You can certainly have your own opinion.

Woodard

No, I agree with you. I think, you know, if we make it — we can't, we need to not overcomplicate it. God did create us because He desired a relationship outside of the unity that He had in His — in His own self, in His — in the Godhead. He created us because He wanted a creature to love and to and for us to love Him. But he loves us irregardless. And the fact is, He loves us whether we love Him or not. So, I think it's important to remember that it's not about what we do, it's about who we are, and we're God's creature, and we're God's creation, and we're God's son or daughter, and that's the why of God's love for us.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, well, I bring that — I bring it up, because I think when we talk about soul care, I think, to be honest, you know, when those responsibilities rack up and there's pressure at work, it's so easy to say, “Well, what does it matter? What do I matter?” Right? And we just get so buried in the responsibility and life kind of starts looking pretty dark, right? And if we can keep our focus on the fact that we give the creator of the universe joy, like, that kind of resets our perspective on things, that we are — we are not here for the doing. There's more to it than that. We do have purpose beyond all the things. Even if everything goes wrong with the things that we're doing, we still give God joy. We are here for that purpose. And I think that can really be an encouragement to a lot of people when — when — you know, the you-know-what hits the fan and we've got all the things to do, right? Just kind of refocus us a little bit. And it, I think it kind of motivates us to say, “You know what, I kind of do need to keep taking care of myself, because I got a job to do for God. I gotta give Him some joy here. You know what I mean?

Woodard

Yeah. Yeah.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

Yeah. I just had another funny thought.

Thibodeaux

Sure.

Woodard

My — I can get frustrated with my little dog sometimes. He — he does some things I don't want him to do. And I might use a louder voice to correct him, and he kind of, like, reacts. And then —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— in a couple hours, I'll come back in from when I'm gone. And what's he doing? He's excited to see me.

Thibodeaux

Yeah

Woodard

Not because of anything that I did right or wrong. It was because he just wants to be with me.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And that's a really bad analogy for relating that to God. But God wants to be with us, not because of anything that we do, but because he loves to be with us.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

There's a — there's a famous speaker from a long time ago that — that described God as that — that grandpa who pulls out his wallet and flips it open, “Let me show you my grandchild.”

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And that's the most precious thing to that — that grandfather. And all of those grandchildren are the most precious.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. I think a lot about the story of the Prodigal Son. You know, and we — it's preached a lot as a story of forgiveness, and it certainly is. I don't want to take away from that at all. But I always focus on that happiness that the father had that the son was home. Like again, you know, again, for that joy idea, He — He could have been saying, you know, “Hey, I told you so. I knew you'd be back. Now I've got another hands — helping hands here. Good for you to be back.” Right? But he was just happy to have his son. Wasn't about the fact that his son was back at home to work, you know, do his job. It wasn't about any of that. He was just like, “Let's go — let's go have a party. I would throw a party for you. That is God —

Woodard

Right.

Thibodeaux

— to me.

Woodard

Yeah, yeah. And — and the story, as Jesus tells it, is the father was sitting on the porch day after day, looking off in the distance, hoping that his son would show up.

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And when he did, in that culture, the fathers didn't run. He hiked up his — his — his — his — his robe, and he ran to greet his son and threw his arms around him.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, yeah.

Woodard

And put a ring on his finger, sandals on his feet, and yes, and threw a party for him

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, I think this — this is one of the reasons why we need to kind of focus on the soul care. Because if you take care of yourself, you are reconnecting to God. I mean, that it helps you kind of appreciate who you are, but also who He is as well. So, I can, I can express a gratitude to you for writing this book and kind of introducing these ideas to us. I think it'll be very grounding for people.

Woodard

I hope so. It was grounding for me. You know, in the writing process, there's always things that come up that you hadn't thought of, or there's things that are convicting. I was having a conversation recently with somebody. I was overwhelmed. I'm in the — I'm getting close to launching — this book’ll launch in January of —

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

— next year, early January of next year. And there's a lot of things I think you just, you just launched a book, and it's a lot of things you have to do to prepare for that. And I still — I was just like, “Ah, I'm just so tired of all of it.”

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

And they asked me to remember my why. And then, you know, my — my wife also said, “You know, you wrote this for a reason.” And I said to her, I said, “But I can't even practice the things that I wrote about.” Like, I'm — I'm — I'm in this busy season, and I'm having a hard time with the very things that I wrote about. I'm telling the other — everybody else, you got to do all these things. And I'm having a hard time building these in my own life and living out these practices in my own life. So, that's — maybe, that's a — maybe that's a — something I shouldn't say as somebody who's getting ready to launch a book, I'm having a hard time.

Thibodeaux

No, it’s honest, though. It’s honest.

Woodard

It's a reminder of the book is — is that, you know, you have to — you have to build these things into your life. And you have to — even if you don't feel like that — like doing them, they're important to do and — and they — they — they just build something that's — that's better in your life. If you really consistently —

Thibodeaux

Yeah.

Woodard

— they help you to find a sustainable place in your life.

Thibodeaux

Well, I can say something that might — might hopefully encourage you just a little bit. I don't know any of the disciples, or anybody who is a faithful follower of Christ who says, “I know what I should do and I do it right all the time.”

Woodard

Well, yeah, that’s true.

Thibodeaux

We certainly don't — so, I mean, like this, I'm — I’m — of course, you know, none of us want to be a hypocrite. We can know —

Woodard

Right.

Thibodeaux

— and — but we're still going to get things wrong, and there's still gonna be growth that we know and — knowing and actually getting the practice right, they’re two different things, and that doesn't mean your heart is not in the right place. You know, you can — you can have the right idea and be correct and just have the practice, that's where the growth has to happen. But sh — doesn't mean you're wrong. Know what I mean?

Woodard

No. I mean, no, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, you know, no leader is perfect.

Thibodeaux

Correct.

Woodard

And no — nobody who — who has ideas and that are structures for way to — ways to live, always lives out those structures. So, you're right.

Thibodeaux

Yeah, well, I point that out too, because I think there are other leaders who might say, you know, “Well, I need to keep quiet until I get it right.” And I don't necessarily think that's true, because the practice, I think, frequently lags behind the mental capability to know what you need to do. I think that's — it — I would almost say that that's almost a rule, that it takes longer for the practice to come in after you know it. I think that's — that's what we see in our spirituality all the time. You know, but you don't do, right?

Woodard

I don't think anybody would have ever put anything on paper if they would have waited until they had it perfect.

Thibodeaux

Right.

Woodard

There's not a book — I mean, you can see there's a lot of books around me. No — none of these — none of these authors had all of it perfect, or they're telling a story like I told you at the beginning. The “Burned Out to Beloved” book, she wrote it out of a sense of failure in her life.

Thibodeaux

Yeah

Woodard

And — and a restoring of practices that build a sustainable rhythm. So, it's often that an author is writing out of brokenness, and — and, yes, they don't have it mastered, but they're trying to — maybe they're teaching themselves some things, and hopefully, along the way, teaching somebody else.

Thibodeaux

Yeah. Well, if people want to start on this journey with you to get better and grow and get your book, where can they go to do that or learn more about you?

Woodard

Best place to go is the — my main website is gregwoodard.com and all the — there's a variety of links across the top. They can connect with different services. They can connect with my book at that site. To go directly to a book page, just go to book.gregwoodard.com, and that's going to take them right to the page that's devoted to the book. And then I have a page — I'm giving you a lot of URLs — page — but they're really simple. So, book for book, and page dot Greg woodard.com, they can go and they can find — I don't remember what I titled it. It's a — it's a — how to avoid burnout — how leaders can avoid burnout action guide. That's a fillable guide

Thibodeaux

Okay.

Woodard

And that's available.

Thibodeaux

Perfect. I will make sure that all of the show notes have those links ready so that it — listeners, if you want to go and check those out, you certainly can do that. But as we're wrapping up here, do you mind if I say a quick prayer for you?

Woodard

I would love for you to say a quick prayer for me, Wanda.

Thibodeaux

Okay, thanks.

God, you know that Greg is doing a lot of work to reconnect people with you through soul care. It's super important that we take care of who we are, the way that you made us to be, so that we can serve you. And hopefully, you know, through this book, this will be a path that people can do that. So, God, I ask You to bless the release of his book. Help people connect with it in a very deep way. And honestly, God, just let it change people's lives. Let them direct — or, let it direct people in the direction that you need them to go. In Jesus name, I pray.

Woodard

Amen.

Thibodeaux

Amen. Well, Greg, this has been a fantastic talk. I really appreciate your time, and thank you once again for being a guest on the show.

Woodard

Well again, thank you, Wanda for inviting me. I had a great time, great conversation.

Thibodeaux

Thank you.

Thibodeaux

Listeners, as we wrap up, I just want to encourage you to remember, again, your soul, your inner self, it is so, so worth taking care of. God put thought and love and joy into making you, and one of the deepest ways you can honor Him is to stay aware and respond to what your soul needs to be well. I highly recommend you check out Greg’s book as you journey through all that. Next episode, we’re gonna be talking about the paradox of growth — the more successful you are, the harder it gets to be truly close enough to others to build trust. Check out our full library of content at faithfulontheclock.com as you wait for that to land in two weeks, and be blessed.