Tom Pepperdine interviews Helen Sheppard about her writing process. Helen discusses how she begins planning her poems, what inspires her, and how she discovered the joy of poetry in her 40s.

You can find all of Helen's information on her website here: https://helensheppard.bigcartel.com/

And you can follow her on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/HelenSheppard7

And listen to her podcast here: https://spoti.fi/331jYEO

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Hello, and welcome to the Real Writing Process.

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.

And this episode, my guest is the poet Helen Sheppard.

Helen is the host of the Health Beat Poets podcast on Spotify.

A show where writers, performers, and spoken word artists share

their take on health and poetry.

Helen is a fantastic writer and performer herself.

She has read her poetry at various events in the UK and America.

Everywhere from small cafes to Harvard medical school.

This interview was recorded at the end of October, 2021.

One month after Helen's debut poetry collection called

Fontanelle, was released.

It was also in the middle of a horrific storm.

So the internet connection is not the best.

And I apologize for any distortion you may hear during the interview.

Hello.

And thank you for joining me this week.

I'm delighted to say my guest is poet, Helen Sheppard.

Hello, Helen.

Hello, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here talking with you, Tom.

I am thrilled that you're here as well.

And my first question as always is what are we drinking?

We are drinking, Old Jamaica Ginger Beer with, I've

got a slice of capsaicin chili.

It knocks a punch, I'm telling you.

I can feel my lips fizzing already.

Okay, here we go.

I'm gonna put my glass down without a clunk.

And oh, that's going to clear out the nasal passages.

Is that a medicinal?

How did you find this beverage?

As a choice that you'd inflict on yourself.

Well, I love chili food anyway.

And Old Jamaica Ginger beer.

It's just got such a beautiful flavor.

It feels tropical.

I can imagine being in Jamaica, even though I've never been, and adding

an extra slice of chili, whoa.

In the winter, it's such a lovely warming drink.

It's certainly a dark and stormy night.

And I think this drink is blowing our taste buds so that we're definitely don't

feel like we're in a cold wet Bristol.

And is this a treat drink for you?

Is this a regular drink for you?

And how long ago was it that you first started drinking it?

Ginger beer.

I think I've been drinking probably for the last 10 years.

When I perform poetry, I can't touch alcohol or else I'm completely useless.

And you wouldn't want to see really.

And ginger beer, it does make you cough.

So it's probably not the ideal drink, but I love one after I perform poetry.

it just cools your throat and picks you up.

And it's a real tonic, I guess.

When you've got that adrenaline rush and you've done a live performance,

it seems to level things out a bit.

Where I'm speaking to you now, is this where you do a lot of your writing?

Is this your writing desk

I would say it's my writing desk.

Whether I write at my desk, that's another story...

So with your poems where, where do you like to write best?

Where do you find creativity happens for you?

Walking.

If I pack a notepad, a pen and I just go for a walk, I can

feel the hornets in my head.

That I want to start writing.

And if I'm at home, , I feel a bit tied down.

And I think the rhythm of walking, whether it's urban, or taking myself

off to a woodland I feel that the rhythm is worked for me, and I just

maybe sit on a bench or I'll lean against a bridge or a tree or wherever

I am and something comes into my head.

I just write it down.

Nice.

And it's a stormy night, so I have to ask, is that an all weathers thing?

Do you find that you can only write when you're outside and

how do you deal with rain?

It's all weathers.

They say this there's such thing as bad weather.

It's just bad clothing, don't they?

So I'll find a place which has got either shelter, so that I can

sit there and watch the storms.

And it is trashing out hail holy hoolie out there at the moment.

I've got a lot places that I go where I know I won't be bothered by people.

Particularly people I know, because I can't hold a conversation when

I'm writing at any level, really.

It's like I just can't remember the words or social niceties or anything.

So I have to go somewhere where I'm, I know I'm going to be alone, I've got the

benefits of sitting in a shelter place.

I often take either some homemade cake or coffee or treats to

have while I'm writing outdoors.

Oh, wow.

That sounds really evocative.

I think you're sort of writing in a sheltered place in a storm.

Taking treats and nourishment to sustain you is a wonderful image.

Uh, so how long do these writing sessions last then?

I mean, if you're taking food with you, it sounds like, it's not a

five minute stroll down the road.

It's mainly for the walk, because I know for my mental wellbeing that going

off for a walk regularly is something that when I can feel one foot in front

of the other and that's, really calming.

And I think then, because I'm calm and in a rhythm of walking,

then my mind can be imaginative.

I don't tell anyone where I'm going either, Tom.

It's my little bubble and igloo, really.

Lovely.

So on these walks, are you writing full poems or is it more snippets of ideas

and just formulating little sections?

I guess it's mind-mapping.

Where I'll just write lots of words down or phrases that come into my head.

I sometimes go with an idea for a poem or sometimes I go

with a completely clear head.

When you have an idea for a poem, what is it that marks

it as something that you think I want to write a poem about this?

W what is it that grabs you?

Is it a memory?

Is it just an emotional feeling?

What turns just a piece of whimsy into, no, I actually want to

write creatively about this?

Sometimes it's a memory, but not fully formed memory.

It's just like a picture.

So I'll get a little picture in my head.

I'm pretty visual, in that I'll see something in my mind and then the

feelings and the emotion join the picture.

So it could be that I might see a tree that I remember seeing either with people.

And then on my end up writing a bit about the tree, but then I'll end up

talking all about the root structure.

And then I'll probably go onto talking about blood vessels and the heart.

I guess I start with something visual.

And if I'm seeing people walking around and they remind me of

something, then I'll write about that.

I absolutely love writing, I guess, narratives.

A lot of my poetry is narratives, so I'll put loads of ideas down

and then I see where it goes.

But often it is like a spidergram and then develops from there.

And when you're mapping out these poems and grouping things together,

how long does that process usually take from a mind map to, okay, this

is the length that is going to be.

Interesting question, Tom.

Because I'll I'll write phrases down, and then I'll join it and then

make it into some body of poetry.

And then what I do, it's like having a rubber.

I'll look at it and then I'll take out everything that I think is superfluous.

And then I realize what I'm writing about and it could be something

completely different to what I wrote, I thought it was about originally.

And then I will add more to it, more detail, and then

I'll start putting back in.

And probably some of the things I took out.

I also, I'm not sure if this is a usual thing, but I always

write in a notebook with a pen.

And I write, if I'm going to write something more formed,

then I'll write from back of my notebook towards the front.

And this could be just my interpretation, but I think I am less bothered with

my critic voice when I write that way.

It's as if I'm going into my subconscious.

And then what happens is I'll put it on the computer.

I'll edit it.

I'll rewrite it.

Some poems will come fairly quickly.

And others, there was one poem that I wrote, took 10 years and 36 edits.

And it's done really well for me.

It's probably my most traveled poem.

So it, it varies a lot really.

I mean, none of them are really finished, are they?

So, I think there's still words that even when they been published I'm,oh yeah.

I'm just going to take that word out or switch up a little bit around.

I mean, that's, that's the key thing about poetry, isn't it?

I always remember my English teacher at school telling me writing is about finding

the right words in the right order.

And poetry is finding the best words and putting them in the best order.

And it's very much the distillation of an idea and a concept.

Because of having been a midwife in the past, and coming

to writing fairly later on.

The writing is very different because I have to hear it.

And I'm still really excited about the process of being creative and the sounds.

It's got to have strong sounds as well, because I came into

poetry through open mic.

Going and hearing spoken word poet.

So that was my introduction into poetry.

And so if it connects with others and it's got a musicality to it, I guess.

But also a good story then I feel like, yeah, okay poem, you've burst.

And I guess, as you said there, you came to poetry through sort of

spoken word and open mic nights.

Do you always have it with every single poem that you write,

that it's to be performed?

I don't go out to perform them, but what happens is I'll write

it and then I'll go for an open mic night and then I'll, I'll perform it.

I'll read it out loud and then I can hear it.

I can hear my own voice and then I can gauge the audience reactions

and I can hear all the hesitations.

That rhythm isn't quite right.

So I guess that's my next order of writing, really.

So part of your drafting process is to actually read it in

front of a room full of strangers?

Yes.

They're not all strangers, but I don't have that hesitation

of sharing my work at all.

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

Because someone said to me the other day, I'm trying really

hard to be a proper poet.

I thought, I have no idea what you're talking about because I

don't know what proper poet is.

Because I have these poems that come out.

They're part of me, then they're released and they're not connected

with any, past experiences of poetry.

I didn't do poetry at school.

The first time I knew that there was such a thing as a poem was in my forties.

Had you tried any other creative outlet before, before poetry?

No.

No I hadn't, but I have since.

So over the last year I've been doing some life drawing.

I've got passion for bodies and skulls and anatomy.

And so drawing the human form, I was surprised how easy I took to it.

I guess, through work, I've seen a lot of naked bodies through nursing,

midwifery, and that's imprinted on me.

I got invited to do poetry for a life drawing class, a celebration,

and then I found myself just sketching while the life models

were posing and writing more poetry.

I was surprised how they both went together so well.

Yeah, that, that sounds um, not something that you would

traditionally pair together.

Is that something that you think you'll continue with in the future?

Yeah, I'll definitely go back to it and we'll probably run some workshops.

I also think I've always collaborated since I've started writing poetry.

And I think that really feeds into my creative process, but

also poetry to me is community.

So I could never even consider writing on my own and keeping it to myself.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people with fear of failure, you know, sort

of want to revise and revise and revise before anyone hears it.

And I think you've probably blown a few minds, our listeners with

the fact that during the drafting process you're sharing work.

Knowing that you're going to go back and revise it again.

And I think it is something that is very liberating, or it sounds like

it's very liberating to do because that feedback is really helping you engage

of whether something's good or not, but not having that fear of, you know,

if it falls flat, it's like it doesn't take away your validity as a poet.

You know, cause I think it's a very brave and courageous thing to take something

that your in the process of revising and distilling down into its final form.

One thing I was gonna ask because you've written poems for anthologies

and other people's collections, like you say collaboration is

a big part of your process.

What was the process like, and which do you have a preference over writing

for yourself and, going for a walk and just seeing what comes versus

the focus of writing to a theme and writing to to someone else's

requirements other than your own?

Um, it does put more pressure on you.

The, and you've got someone else's expectations there.

I mean, you are right.

I have no fear of failure with poetry because I I think a poem to me is

probably something very different to anyone that's done poetry at school.

I did song lyrics, I wasn't stream to do any literature or Shakespeare or anything.

So I think poetry to me feels maybe very different.

There's no pressure for it.

The writing too, with a collaboration you do have to be, none of us

are Nancy on are own, are we?

So I would say that writing, because I've always been influenced

by listening to other's poetry.

And recently I had to write a poem with a historian and two musicians on

the Bedminster coal mining disaster.

So the historian gave me a lot of their facts and I thought this

is facts, but it's not story.

And I had to really think.

I think because of being a midwife, I've got quite a strong, empathetic way

about me, so I can be in the moment.

And I think I could close my eyes after reading lots about coal mining and

families, and imagine myself there and then I can imagine the smells and the

sensory stuff around and the noises.

And I think that really made writing the poem much simpler.

Plus there's a lot of photographic evidence.

So I wrote to six photographs about different aspects of coal mining.

And and then the historian and I shared what we were putting in.

I guess one of the processes is knowing what I'm putting is in as a

poet and what they're putting in as a historian, so that you're not repeating

yourself or sharing the same images.

So that took quite a lot of working.

Closely together and I think I'm probably more used to editing than the historian.

So it's really important to be really sensitive about other

peoples, what they bring.

When the music got added, wow!

It was excellent.

And that wasn't added until we'd done quite a lot of work on putting

our weaving the poetry and the historical aspects of it together.

Blew my mind.

It was fantastic.

So that was open CoLab with Jake and Charlie and Gary

Atherton was the historian.

For anthologies, and writing to a theme.

I mean, there's a lot of anthologies.

I just don't feel engaged with.

I think there was one on the elements, which I could write about elements.

And nature poetry has really taken off and eco poetry.

I'm really early stages of dipping into that.

And um, I think, because I'm more influenced by people rather than nature,

even though I walk in nature and it's really integral to my creative processes.

I think as a creative, you've already thought about a lot of things.

So you're not having to do all the work from the beginning because you

can tap into some of those roots that you've already laid down.

Yeah, and I was just wondering about where you were dealing with the

coal mining disaster and obviously having a historian there giving you

lots of the facts, but did you feel a pressure to do your own research

or once you'd written it to make sure as well as it being an emotional

evocative piece that there was a degree of accuracy or was it just constantly

collaborating with the historian throughout that you felt that you didn't

have to do any additional research?

No, I had to do loads of research because I had some facts that they felt

were really important, but what I didn't have is the poetic language from them.

When there's an explosion and the long whistle blows and then

silence, it's so important to put the silence into your poem.

So I think you can be tempted to fill them up with telling, and

showing and imagery and metaphors.

Actually, sometimes you just have to be silent and it's stripping it back

and sometimes not giving it all away and let in the listener and the reader

do quite a lot of work themselves.

So I guess that's my bit about putting everything in, stripping it right back.

And then adding stuff is about then having I guess, value in the reader.

Because I, oh, this might be interesting to say, but one of my tips would be

not to write for anybody to write for yourself because you're just writing

whatever original thought is in your head.

And we may sometimes think that our thoughts aren't original, but actually

we're the only ones having them.

So all the other, all the pictures that look like that

original thought are valuable.

And I guess lots of different poets could write about the same thing, we

would all write completely different.

But yeah, I definitely feel I have to do lots of research around it.

And even though I wrote a poem about my first delivery and I was obviously there

and knew the processes and the anatomy and everything, I still felt to take myself

out of it I needed to do a lot of reading.

So I guess that's part of it, is reading around a topic is to taking

yourself out of your poem for awhile.

So you have researched or done research for a variety of poems, and

the ones that you've done for just your own ideas as well as ones that you're

doing in collaboration with others?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I probably do quite a lot research and I'm doing one for the working class festival

and I'm reading all sorts of different articles and research articles and essays

on working class writers, even though I've got an idea of what I want to do for it.

It's yeah, writing is all about community and the more voices

I'm listening to and reading and thinking about, the more I'm able to

write in a more fuller way, really.

So I guess from that and your comments earlier about collaboration,

it's rather than having a static author narrative voice, you like to broaden

your approach to poetry and actually almost encompass a variety of voices

in the narratives of your poetry?

Yeah, I guess that's right, actually.

For the coal mining one, although it was my tone.

It had that consistency of me being the writer.

I did want to take people down in the pit and show them what it was like.

And I did want to put them in to people's home family home, and also to share with

them the aftermath of that disaster.

So I guess it's partly about place and people, you know,

what's going on between people.

I mean, I clearly have a fascination for people and people watching.

So I think I can bring elements of that into historically as well, except

written quite a lot of historical poems.

And I think probably you'll get my voice, but you'll get the historical place.

Yeah, I guess that's what I was leading to.

Is that you do have a stylistic voice.

The narratives are not always from your perspective, especially when

you're doing historical poetry.

As part of your research, when doing historical poetry is making sure that

the people you're representing theie voice i s part of it too, I think.

Yeah, it's a big discussion at moment around writing about other people's

lives and not appropriating their stories.

So I can write from my interpretation and what's going on and give a tone.

Given I guess, an indication that I'm a witness, but I'm

not writing from my voice.

So I guess I can, I'm a witness really.

So if I'm writing about.

There's a poem about my great grandparents.

I mean, I never met them, but I know some of the stories, but also I can

give a, a voice that holds the story.

A bit like a narrator, I suppose.

But you don't try and inhabit you know, you don't give a direct voice to

your great grandparents, for example, but like you say, your witness, you

portray your idea of what it would be like to witness certain events.

Going from the third person perspective.

Hold on, I'll just go back to my English teachings.

It's yeah.

It's third person you're outside looking in.

Yeah, but not too outside.

And it's interesting because some of my collection is about birth and

another part of my writing is I'm quite visceral about my descriptions.

So I'm describing what's happening inside bodies and the, I guess the

journey of the baby coming out and even doing internal examinations.

I can describe that I'm painting a picture, which means it's

quite an invasive procedure some of the things I write about.

I guess there is always a risk when you're writing from down to the bones, which

is what I'm fairly known for probably, is that you don't want to retraumatize

anyone or I guess alienate your reader.

But I have I think because of my style, I can take people to quite quite to the

bone in places and they're still held.

And I think also my nurse's sense of humor means it's not, I

don't hold them in a dark place.

They have opportunities for that light and shade.

I think that's something I've probably learned because I started writing

after burnout, and I think I've really had to think about taking care.

I guess it goes from the beginning of our conversation, taking care of myself

in my writing and being vulnerable and taking other people to a vulnerable

place and not being scared of that.

But also we've got responsibility not to protect people, but to be

present, feel a presence while they're reading your poetry or hearing it.

I think with the the visceral nature of some of the birthing poems.

A fantastic portrayal for people who are not familiar with like realistic

childbirth, even when you see childbirth in cinema and on television, it's

just okay, you push for about 10 seconds and then you have a baby.

And seeing it portrayed beautifully viscerally in poetry is a unique angle.

It's not something I'd ever seen before and I think it's a fantastic

thing that you are able to do because it will resonate with people.

It resonates with me.

Who's never had children doesn't want to have children.

It kind of reassures me as a horror fan who doesn't want children.

I think I approach those poems in a different validating way for my lifestyle.

But I think people who've had traumatic childbirth can know they're not alone.

Yeah, there's something absolutely magical about the human body.

Because my collection is birth to death and everything in between really.

And it's interesting because I think about quarter of the people who've

bought it have been men in different stages and experiences in their life.

And I think one of the things that really interests me and certainly, having been

present when people have gone through the most extreme experiences through

illness and trauma, is how the body and the mind want the best for the person.

Because they are that person.

We all going through COVID times as well.

And a lot of people who've been through COVID say they, they can't remember

the most traumatic parts of their care.

And the body does have a huge, and the mind has a huge capacity to

work together to protect that person from remembering and reliving and

retraumatizing themselves each time.

I think that's one of the things that really fascinates me and keeps my

writing visceral, but also respectful of what the body and the mind

will do in collaboration together.

I think that probably comes across quite strongly in my writing, but it's also in

the worst of times, we can, as you say, we can witness horror and we can witness

trauma and it's because we're witnessing the whole thing we're not experiencing it.

So whatever we experienced in life, we experience on a completely different

level to the person that's witnessing it.

And that's quite fascinating one, when you're trying to write something that's

authentic and true to yourself, but also have an impact on people reading it.

Because it is although it's only poetry and there's a tiny amount of people who

are poets in the world, even though we think we're a bigger number than we are.

it all comes down to connecting doesn't it?

Yeah.

And I just want to say that for people who haven't read your poetry, not to

put them off, I think the style, and I think this definitely comes through

with your tone, as we're talking now, is that it's an unflinching portrayal.

It's not a provocative act to shock portrayal.

And it's just, you're not afraid of the darker elements, the more visceral

elements, but it never feels gratuitous.

You're going for accuracy in an emotive portrayal of a very life-changing moment.

Yeah.

And it's a very key part of the human experience for lots of people.

I realize I'm speaking on your behalf there, which is terrible hosting.

I do agree with you.

If you're going to write something, and you're not writing for yourself

or others, who am I writing for?

I'm writing to capture.

Things that have been really important to me by doing that, even if it is, strong

themes do come in through my writing, I can also talk about I think there's one

poem called Stitches, which is where a grandfather has got a pheasant, and be

preparing it for the dinner table and a little girl goes and she has a way

of putting the pheasant back together.

And then you see her later in life using the skills that she's used as a child.

And I guess in some way, 'cause, I didn't do poetry at school or literature.

I guess my route in has been through fairy tales.

Grimm's fairy tales and I do a bit of horror.

I liked to be a bit shocked with what I'm reading.

I also like really awkward and unpredictable characters to read about.

I think maybe all those influences of reading fairy tales, a fairly dark,

and really take you in And I think if you're, if you know, in life we have

so many experiences, it feels sometimes like we're living in a fairy tale,

not with all the fluffy marshmallow.

Like a true Grim fairytale.

You know, life lessons.

And I think life can be very much like that.

And writing is my way of making sense of all that and trying to put different

elements together in a narrative that I feel myself I can make sense of.

And maybe other people will find something in the writing that

I guess connects them as well.

I think your humor and affection uh, for people definitely comes through.

Uh, you know, it was Stiches, especially, I think it has a very sweet ending.

And yes, it's just the interrelationships of people.

Like you were saying before about community.

When you're writing, are you quite conscious about the relationships

that you want to portray.

That this is going to be a grandchild, a granddaughter and a grandfather,

and how that might evolve over time?

No, I don't think like that when I'm writing.

What happens is that something fairly vague and then I'll add a bit of detail

to it, but it isn't necessarily I don't think I understand the relationships

within what I'm writing about until fairly near mid point, I think.

They talk about story arc, don't they?

Well that you've got to have that sort of thing in poetry as well.

And so I guess the story arc comes part the way through the

writing and editing process.

Yeah.

And I guess with the process we've spoken about.

The revision of it, stripping things back, putting things together.

You had that one poem, which took 10 years and 36 rewrites.

How long would you say on average would a rewrite from once you've got

the narrative once going through that mid point and go, okay, I know what

this poems about and where I'd want it to start where I want it to finish.

And it's just from that process to the actual refining.

Is it something that you try and do in a couple of sessions or do you

have lots of poems on the go and it's just, they take, as long as they take?

I put them away for a bit.

So I'll each stage of taking notes.

I'll put it away for a few days, maybe a week.

And then I'll get it out again and I'll think, what am I talking about?

Where am I going with this?

You know, what are my thoughts?

And then I'll write something that maybe goes off at tangents.

I go of quite a lot of tangents when I'm writing.

So the story starts building and I guess a lot of writers

writing novels are the same.

Then as I'm editing I may leave it for a couple of weeks and then I'll take

it out again and I'll read it through.

And I would thought a couple of edits down the line is when I would take

it out and share it with the live audience either online nowadays,

obviously, and occasionally live.

I never share anything with my family and friends, so they haven't seen

my book until it was published.

They may have had some of the poems in open mics, some that I performed, but

actually they didn't have the opportunity to read them until the book was published.

And I guess, because I'm not writing for them and I don't want their influence.

I'm not expecting anyone to say nice things about it because that's

not what I'm writing it for really.

And I would say that maybe two thirds of the poems in Fontanelle

I wrote in the last 18 months.

So some of them, I, I guess it's a time where we've been in, I

was able to immerse myself more than I would have done normally.

But quite a few that I wrote for it.

You have the processes, knowing what you're leaving each time we write.

It's what you leave out isn't it?

Taking things out, some people really struggle with that, as do I.

But it's the piece of writing that tells you what needs to

be in and what needs to be out.

It's almost having another entity you're engaging with when you're writing.

I never felt like I'm on my own.

Even when I go to make a cup of tea, woe betide anyone that comes to talk

to me because that would be three in the conversation and it doesn't work.

Because I think there's my inner thoughts and there's my physical

writing, and they're having this strong dialogue together.

So that's how I know what to leave out.

It's interesting, cause it was only a few weeks ago that

Fontanelle was published, but that a significant part of it was written

and completed in the last 18 months.

I had no idea.

Cause this is your first collection, let's cover that for a moment.

Just how did you uh, work on the theme of Fontanelle?

And do you want to explain it?

Cause I looked up the word Fontanelle cause I had no idea.

I thought it was like, sounds French.

So explain what the word Fontanelle is and how you came to group

these poems for this collection.

Fontanelle is the soft spot on a baby's skull.

I think I've always loved the word Fontanelle, so my first collection

was always going to be called that.

And some people said, oh, no one knows what it is.

I said, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

I mean, it's a whole mystery you don't know what's going on inside, even though

you know the anatomy and everything.

But knowing that the fetal skull changes shape all the way through

the passage, and there's all this power going on at the same time.

And then there's a birth.

And I guess that's a metaphor for how I am in life.

In that you really gotta be keep being open to change.

Some idea what your journey is.

No idea most of the time, but also we're not bringing all the power ourselves.

It's all around us and putting the collection together, I guess the theme of

caring was really big in everyone's minds.

I'm really fascinated by the joys and complexities of caring.

The other thing that I wanted to write about in it, was that I've got

quite a lot of family members who have got links to health and wellbeing.

So I think I've been around health discussions and people being quite

frank about things all my life.

So I think I wanted to bring it together.

And it's interesting because I've been told that a lot of spoken word

poets tend to put their greatest hits in their first collection.

And to me, it was about writing a story.

So it comes across as quite a narrative.

Yeah, that was in important to me and I did have help with editing it

and discussions around sequencing.

I'm really proud of it.

It's got a lot of me in it.

It's got a lot of life in it and it's yeah go out and buy it and read it blah, blah.

As to the next projects, bit of a plug I've I started to write a novel

and I've written 17 chapters, but I haven't touched it for about 10 years.

I've escaped to a writing group and I, they were quite open with me that,

you get a slot to present a chapter and then you get feedback to it.

And I was writing each chapter for the next time my slot was there.

What was happening was that a couple of the people noticed that I was

changing my style of writing on reflection of the feedback I got.

And I guess what was really good learning for me and why I probably don't,

haven't shared much of this collection before, is because they were saying

that partly I was writing for the group, who would give me feedback, but I was

also I wasn't really in touch with what my style was and my own voice.

I was doing poetry and poetry seemed easier to tap into my

voice than writing a longer piece.

And also one of the people in the writing group said, I think you'd need a different

group, Helen, because your novel is quite poetic and you write quite clipped.

And yeah, I guess it came across, so I was not putting much detail.

I'm not one for detail.

I'm one for a different style of writing.

And it was the best thing they did because I don't think I'd have got so far ahead

with my poetry if I hadn't left the group.

Now I feel that I've got my voice and I can protect my own writing better.

I think that's really important as a writer.

I absolutely love getting critique and that constructive feedback

from people, but I've got to have done the writing first.

And I think that's been, I'm part of a couple of writing groups and

and we do write quite spontaneously for that, but I think I had to

learn to know my own voice first.

And that took a long time, I'm far more confident with that.

So I'd love to get back to my novel and also write some more

about medical stuff, really.

I've got a lot of textbooks from the 1940s from my aunt.

And I think that's going to be really interesting, looking

at people and the comparisons.

I'd love to do some more collaborative stuff.

And and I haven't got a theme for another collection, but I know that will grow.

I'm just going to be completely open with myself.

I think just a bask in the success of getting your debut collection out.

But yeah, knowing that you sort of, 17 chapters into a novel is really exciting.

Even if, it's been a long time coming.

I think finishing projects is always a wonderful emotional experience.

And I would love you to finish it.

Even if you don't share it for a long time.

But having the ability to really develop your ideas in long form

versus the punchiness of poetry is that fulfilling on a different level

or is it just quite challenging?

Well, do you know, the timing's interesting because

there's a lot of writers.

There's a lot of novels that are coming out, which are in a more of a poetic form.

Very short chapters.

So I guess A Girl Is A Half-formed Thing was very much streams of

consciousness, but there's also um, quite a lot of the Japanese writers

and it's certainly become very popular.

A lot of people are not having the concentration to read the bigger,

more formal types of novels.

I'll go into short stories and novellas and I guess, yeah, there's th there's many

more books coming out that are short forms

I think probably the long form of writing and doing full in-depth

body of chapters was never my thing.

And so it's really encouraging that there's so many writers nowadays that are

writing to a different process, really.

And I do think the literary scene has changed dramatically.

Certainly the diversity of it is going to be carry on hammering away, but also

you can be experimental and inventive and bring poetry and novels together.

I think that's what's really exciting in literature at the moment.

Yeah.

And obviously with your love of collaboration.

You mentioned before how some of your poems would be put to music and that you

wrote song lyrics when you were younger.

Is that another aspect that you might explore?

No, that's interesting because I didn't write song lyrics.

I was deemed to be not bright enough to do literature at school.

So I had a teacher, Mr.

Monday, who in my class used to play vinyls.

I'm in my sixties now maybe ought to share that with the audience that it was

a while ago that I was at school and all the streaming was fairly strict, so you

got streamed to do, be in certain topics.

So I did language.

And part of the language was that we looked at song lyrics on vinyls.

And I think that's been a really big influence because I never read any

poetry by dead white men, old men poets.

And because I went straight into nursing, I had no reason to think

about poetry and what a poem was.

And it was only when I went to, after I been out, I went to

kickstart your reading class.

I'd forgotten how to read.

And we were looking at short stories and then we chatted about them.

And then one day the tutors said, oh, you might like to write

something and I should do it.

What do you mean, write something?

She said, Helen, you can write whatever's in your head.

And I was like, I can write whatever's in my head, and I put pen on paper,

and this explosion went off in my head and I just been writing since.

And maybe I just needed permission, so I wrote something

and she said, oh, that's a poem.

And I said, whoa, that's interesting, and I think it might be hard for the

listeners to appreciate that because I never did Shakespeare or poetry at school.

It was never on my radar.

And and then my daughter was studying GCSE at school and then she shared with

me, Edgar Allan Poe and Lawker and I was like, oh wow, these are great stories.

So I think I've always seen poems as stories.

Maybe whatever I write in the future, will still be stories.

Maybe quirky and visceral and to the bone with nurse's sense of humor.

But I'm really looking forward to seeing what the next phase is.

Because you're right, I don't have that fear of failure whatever I'm

invited to do or I'm going to be judging poetry of schoolchildren soon.

So whatever I'm, being a poet, what is that really?

It's being a writer, what does that really mean?

It can be so many things.

It's so exciting.

Well, yeah that was something that was formulating in my head was

actually, do you identify as a poet?

How does that feel as Helen Sheppard poet, does that really feel your brand now?

Is that a comfortable title for you to wear?

I think at the moment, I think only it's only about a year ago

that I started to say, I'm a poet.

And I guess that may change as I did more different types of writing too.

I am a writer, but the amount of really established well-known writers

and poets really struggle identifying themselves and owning that word I am a.

So I might have been mine for 20 years, but it's only probably, the

last couple of years I've stepped up.

And it was interesting because when I burned out, friends said

it's happened a couple of times, but about seven, eight years ago,

she said, Helen, chuck your job.

Take your writing seriously.

And and I guess I'm learning to, within the humour of it all, take

myself a little bit more seriously.

And I think that's really hard for the working class writers

to step into that world where it's always seemed unreachable.

But it is so important to, make our mark and tell ourselves that

we are writers and we are poets.

And that part of ourselves has to be really looked after

and respected and applauded.

It's just something that I was thinking about with everything that you've

been saying and how I know that a lot of the times you identify as a nurse and

a midwife, because that was your career for the majority of your working life.

Like you say you know, very established writers and poets who struggle

with the label, a writer or poet.

And I was wondering if part of your fearlessness was because

you don't, you think of yourself as a nurse rather than a poet.

But it's interesting to hear that you have made that transition in the

last year to say, actually, no, I am a poet, and you were saying just then

how your friend was like saying jack in the job and focus on your writing.

Do you feel that's possibly part of your fearlessness might be that for a long

time, it was an enjoyable hobby rather than a any form of career in your head?

Oh, see I don't know that I've ever had it as a hobby.

I think what happened was I was a total daydreamer and some people

would say I was quite other worldly, even though I held down professional,

responsible job, and did it brilliantly.

There was always something else about me, which this is going to sound really weird,

but I think I felt it wasn't wholesome.

And they can be some of the thoughts that we have perpetuating our minds.

And I think I've squashed that part of me and to be in touch with a different

part of your being and let them lose and then learn to reign the back and

understand them and get to know them.

I'm talking like it's another part of another person.

Thing that I want to ask is why um, it not being wholesome.

What, why wholesomeness is important to you?

Is that something that you feel you shouldn't be wholesome?

I think it goes back to working class values.

Working class values are to work, to be a good person and not

really think about the reflective part and also having ambitions.

And also I think there was maybe less opportunity in my

life growing up to be playful.

And I think part of my growing up meant that some feelings and thoughts

got a bit suppressed and I guess we could talk all about, what burnout

and you know, sometimes when you have to explode what comes out.

Burning out to me has been the birth of my self as a writer.

So how can I even think that was a bad thing that happened, even though

it took me many years to recover.

Sometimes when we hit the wall, that's when we discover the most intriguing

parts about ourselves, don't we?

That certainly was the case with me and it's it's been

absolute full of wonderment, so I guess it was always there.

It was always there and I didn't know about it or respect it or value it.

And that's part about valuing ourselves as a complete person.

I'm sort of wandering off talking about that.

Actually it was a tough time, but it's also been really brilliant.

That's great.

And that's really good.

How you're seeing yourself now and how yeah, we, we have to outgrow our

teachings and our learnings as children and discover who we are as adults and

how you had a very fulfilling career.

It fulfilled one of, but like you were saying before, it was almost

like talking about two different people and different parts of you.

I think the other part of it is it can be very draining.

Writing can be exhausting, raw, lonely, isolating, hard work.

It's hard work, writing as well when you're shaping something.

But at the same time, it's really important to look after that.

And it's quite hard to protect and look after and nuture your creative side.

I think there's probably, it's valued more nowadays.

I hope so anyway.

And I hope that from children onwards that, whatever their

creative side are that they're having the encouragement growing up

to nurture that and get to know it.

Yeah, you're right.

It's never too late.

It's never too late.

I do want to ask actually, where you were saying how hard writing can be.

Have you ever felt imposter syndrome with your writing?

Because you're one of the braver people that I know, but it's interesting if

you've still had those experiences at all.

I think it's human nature to doubt ourselves, isn't it?

And it's also human nature to think sometimes we're not

good enough or we haven't.

And you certainly see it on social media where people say,

I'm not going to write any more.

I've had so many rejections, blocks, whatever I'm writing is rubbish.

To me, I just have this fundamental belief that whatever I'm writing is important.

Even if it is a shopping list type poem, or I write in a salt down.

As I said, every thing out of my head feels an original thought and

it is from everybody's it's then when you think, no, someone else

could do this better or someone else.

And yeah, other people may, the writing of it is so over-weighting

any of those imposter type feelings.

Yeah, some of the poems could be better written by some other people,

but actually it's, I've written it.

It's my writing.

And I've got to own that.

And I think we're back to ownership aren't we again, really.

And we just do our best, so I don't know.

It may be that I haven't had any of that.

You've got do better with your writing because I've never

been, oh, that's interesting.

I've never been formally marked on it.

So maybe that takes some of the pressure off.

It's just the fact of doing is success.

Whether it's well-received or not is secondary.

It's just, you wrote the thing and it's the process of creation.

That's really nice.

I have spoken to a couple of people who've had that.

But it's surprising that actually with people who are published

and people who are deemed as successful, not enough, I think.

It's not the majority that just love the creation for creation sake almost.

You want to make it the best it can be, but just the absolute joy of creation,

because I think there's so much out there.

And I think when people are younger and maybe starting in

their twenties, for example.

That they're proving to themselves this is something they can do.

And this is something of merit and they're seeking validation in their writing.

And so there can be a fear, certainly the creative elements that I did in

my twenties had a big fear of failure.

And I think if you're coming to it later in life, you've had life failures and

I think coming after a burnout, which actually I'll ask that as a question.

I won't make any assumptions.

Did you have any feelings of failure when you had burnout?

I crashed and burn, I think as in 2000, because I had a lot going

on and the job was fairly full-on.

I guess my feelings of having to make the decision to stop being a midwife.

So that was in 2000 was possibly the time when I think my fingernails

were still gripping the walls with midwifery because I loved it so much.

And I had to give it up for my own wellbeing and it took

me a few years to recover.

And then I launched myself straight back into it and did all sorts of caring roles.

So was there an element of grief in those years?

Huge.

In fact, I think I've grieved more about giving up midwifery than

I have anything else in my life.

And I guess the writing of Fontanelle is having had that huge distance and

being able to go back into it and explore it with a different hat on, as a poet.

It's been great, really.

I guess partly healing, although it's not that sort of collection.

But there is an element of that for sure.

And then I burnt out again in 2015, I think.

And was very ill but I'd have seven years gap of writing.

So I know for me writing, walking, going back to the beginning of our

conversation is for my wellbeing, really.

Even though I don't tend to write I guess specifically therapeutically.

We're writers, aren't we?

It's part of the big bag of it all, really.

I've always on a personal level thought of writing as a form of therapy.

I think it, some things you read and it's far more explicit there

on the page than it is with others, but it's all about forming ideas

and working through concepts.

And I think that's certainly something that comes across in your writing.

And it can be very therapeutic.

And I think what I was getting at and asking about your burnouts is when

you've had something, which you've had to stop doing that you've had to stop.

And then you grieve that loss, that emotional journey.

You've survived it.

Yeah, midwifery defined you for a period of your life and then it didn't.

And then there was that loss of identity, and it is interesting how

you were saying, you know, you were then looking at caring roles because

you saw yourself as a caregiver.

And now as a creative it's a whole different skillset.

And it's rather than interacting with people there is a lot of isolation

when you're writing, often you can't be around people, which is completely

a different way of working to, to how you are when you're younger.

it's just, I think.

A lot of aspiring writers who listen to podcasts and on line at

the moment perceived as younger.

And there's people starting out, you always think of them as people that

are twenties and they're very aware of mental health and they're very

and they can put a lot of pressure, cause they're still finding out

their defining roles of their life.

And their creative output could be their validation.

But I think when you're coming to it later in life and you've had,

things that are validated you that are no longer validating you.

You've built up those emotional defenses.

And so it's just okay, I've had a traumatic burnout and I survived it.

I had a second traumatic burnout and survived it.

I've got this skill set now.

And I think if anyone's listening to this who has a fear of

failure, don't let it define you.

And I think that's a lesson that from this conversation, I think a lot of people

when doing something creative, want to be a creative and want to be a writer.

But defining yourself as a writer could be very scary.

So don't do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think one of the things is that it's about expectations, isn't it?

Because when people have gone to university to do literature

and then what's the next step, what's the next step?

And oh, I've got to be published, I've got to produce a body of work and that's

a fairly traditional way of going, but it also comes back with massive expectations.

Where do you go when you've either achieved that or not achieve that?

I've been making, um podcasts, Health Beat Poets podcast and just plugging that one

Oh yeah, brilliant.

I started making podcasts because my daughter gave me a link on

podcast training for the over 60s.

with YouTube and radio.

So I did I did a bit of training and then it took me six months to learn

how to um, I did some interviews with poets around their take on poetry and

health and, um, took six months to learn the techie side, but it also

kept me really connected during the last 18 months, two years we've had.

And we talk about all sorts of things like addiction, mental health,

menopause, cancer, all sorts of things.

And one of the poets said to me, Helen, you've just gotta show

up and just keep showing up.

And I thought you are so right.

Whatever else is going on in your life to show up to your writing and scribble

on that blank page, just doodle on it.

Just mess it up.

You know, whenever I'm hesitating, for goodness sake, Helen, just show

up and it's been really helpful.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think I will actually, one of the questions I do like to end on is

if there's one piece of advice that you find yourself returning to when writing.

Do you have something that you consciously have found as advice

that informs your writing?

And would you say that just turning up would be yours,

or is there something else?

I think it's just show up.

And there's no holes barred when you can't sensor yourself, just chuck it down.

Oh, we've all written really dark stuff or joyful stuff or playful things and

traumatic things, there's no holes barred.

Well, it might be interesting to know that a couple of years ago, I just

burnt all my journals and burnt a load of writing that I knew I wasn't

going to go back to and I wasn't going to read, and it was just sat there.

And actually that was quite liberating, getting rid of old

stuff and having a fresh start.

Yeah, those are my three things, I think.

No, that's great.

And I think that's a perfect time to end the interview,

but thank you so much, Helen.

That's been so interesting and yeah, a lot to think about.

Lots to digest on that.

Thank you for being a guest on the show.

It's been a total pleasure chatting with you, Tom.

And thank you.

There was, it was a really interesting questions and take on writing.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And that was a real writing process of Helen Shepherd.

I hope you now love her as much as I do.

And if you're thinking about adding a slice of chili to ginger beer, just don't.

Helen's weird.

I love her, but that is not a drink for mortals.

Anyway, if you'd like to learn more about Helen her podcast

or to buy a copy of her poetry.

You can check out her website, HelenSheppard.bigcartel.com.

I'll also leave a link in the show notes.

I should add the photo on her website isn't her latest official promo portrait.

It's a picture from a few years ago that I took in the pub and she's a bit drunk.

Worth checking out for that alone, in my opinion.

I should also tell you she's on Twitter.

@helensheppard7.

Anyway, that's it.

That's the show.

Season one is finished.

11 guests over 12 weeks.

And I need a holiday.

In fact, when this show goes out, I'll be on holiday.

That's how desperately this holiday is needed.

But don't worry.

I will be back.

Eventually.

I've had some incredible authors agree to be in season two.

So I will need to get on that.

To be honest though.

It's just been great how many of you have downloaded and subscribed to season one.

I have no advertising budget.

. Uh, still literally hundreds of you finally through retweets and word of

mouth, and I'm really chuffed that most of you downloaded more than one episode.

I've also started a subscription site for the Uber fans over on Kofi.

If you subscribe, there'll be trailers for season two.

And the guests that are coming out over the next few months.

So it's worth keeping an eye out.

I'll put a link in the show notes.

Now you can just do a one off donation as a tip of things and very grateful.

Thank you.

Uh, it's just to keep the show cost covered.

Minimum price is a pound and anything you can spare is wonderful.

But if you monthly subscribe, you get every interview as

soon as it's edited and done.

No waiting weeks or months, you're the first in the queue.

And often you'll get the episode before the guest is even

announced, so it's ultra exclusive.

And the price of entry.

One pound a month.

That's it.

I don't want to split my fans across wealth lines.

You can pay more if you want to, support the running costs more.

Everything earned gets plowed into the show.

But if you want to support me, then I want it to be affordable and I want you

to get something that's worth the money.

I have ideas in case I start getting a lot, but at the

moment I'm getting nothing.

So covering web hosting and the license for the music I use would be great.

Uh, speaking of music.

I'm going to give out a shout out to arch tremors who wrote the theme tune.

It's epic and I love it.

It's why I always put the whole song on at the end.

Plus Lollo Gardtman is an incredible singer.

Just awesome talented people.

So, without further ado.

Until next season, my friends.

And say it with me.