Join is as we explore the multifaceted world of Salesforce & Mulesoft implementations with the invaluable insights of my good friend and former colleague, Mark Baker. With a remarkable 16-year track record in the Salesforce ecosystem, Mark sheds light on the strategies that can pivot challenging projects to success. Listen in as he discusses the crucial role of effective discovery and the importance of early issue identification to keep your projects in the 'green'. We also delve into his journey from Model Metrics to his current focus on MuleSoft at Salesforce, underlining the critical role of data integration in technological triumphs.

Shifting gears, the conversation then turns to the universal principles of effective implementation across industries. I highlight the indispensable need for organizations to have a thorough understanding of their own processes and rules before embarking on new strategic partnerships. Emotional intelligence emerges as a cornerstone for fostering fruitful relationships, while mutual accountability and forward-thinking project management are touted as disciplines necessary to keep business objectives on track. Discover the power of oppositional kung fu, competent data handling, and the collaborative approach to steering clear of project pitfalls.

After the interview in our Quick Takes segment, we discuss the recent social media platform outages, emphasizing the need for a robust disaster recovery plan, and probe the compliance conundrums faced by financial institutions in the age of AI. Plus, I offer a rallying cry for professionals to embrace AI for career longevity and share a slice of insight into the transformative power of AI on content creation.

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(04:33) - Effective Technology Implementation Strategies

(14:29) - Discussion on Effective Project Implementation

(29:13) - Improving Business Success Through Data Management

(34:11) - Integration Strategy in the AI World

(39:11) - Navigating Salesforce Integration and Career Development

(49:26) - Social Media Disaster Recovery Planning

(56:49) - Compliance and Business Risks With AI

(01:05:04) - Discussion on Software Updates and Plugins

(01:08:08) - AI and Leadership in Technology

(01:17:46) - Embracing AI for Career Advancement

(01:28:58) - AI Podcast and Content Creation Insights

00:03 - Mark Baker (Guest)

However, like you said, in any kind of a complex environment, in my experience a very small integration team, very small compared to the size of what we call the core side, can turn the integration work stream from the riskiest, most difficult, most problem-laden part of the program to the least risk, the most successful, the greenest part of the program. It can happen for you, but you got to do it.

00:45 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Hello listeners and welcome back to Banking on Disruption. I'm Fred Cadena. We have another incredible episode in store for you. First up we have my good friend, Mark Baker. Mark is currently a leader at Salesforce in professional services, where he leads teams that are working on some of the most complex enterprise MuleSoft engagements. Mark's been working with Salesforce and the Salesforce ecosystem for more than 16 years. I worked with Mark during my time at Silverline, where he was one of our senior delivery leaders, who would refer to him as the project whisperer, because anytime a project had a hint of turning south, we would ask Mark to dig in and before we knew it, he would have identified key issues and gotten it back on the path to green. Mark is going to drop some nuggets. He's picked up as a consultant and a consulting leader and, trust me, if you're in the midst of or embarking on an implementation or major enhancement project, you are going to want to pay attention. The fun continues after the interview. I'm excited we have a full two segment episode bringing back our quick takes roundtable for the first time in a month. Josh, eric and I talk a little bit about Trailhead DX and a lot about AI, with a lot of real time observations about the impact we're each seeing on AI and the workforce, as well as tips and suggestions to help banks get comfortable with beginning to adopt generative AI. While you're listening to this podcast, why not take a moment to follow us on LinkedIn at the banking on disruption podcast, and on Instagram at at banking on disruption? Now sit back and strap in, because our show is coming to you. Welcome back this episode.

02:30

I am super excited to welcome my friend and former colleague, mark Baker. Mark has had an exceptional career in the Salesforce ecosystem spanning the last 16 years, basically leading professional services organizations and helping clients deliver success from small businesses all the way up to gigantic enterprises. He started that at Model Metrics. For those of you that have not been in the Salesforce ecosystem for a long time, you've maybe never heard that name, or if you have been in the Salesforce ecosystem for a long time, you haven't heard it in a while. But Model Metrics eventually became Salesforce Professional Services, where Mark worked for a long time that he and I had the pleasure of working together I say pleasure, he might disagree. It's so fine for a few years. And then he left Silverlight and went back to Salesforce Professional Services, this time focusing in on on mulesoft and data integration implementations, which are critical to overall technology success. So, mark, excited to welcome you to the program. How's it going today?

03:32 - Mark Baker (Guest)

I'm super excited to be here. Fred, Thank you for having me. It's going great. If I was any better, I'd be twins.

03:38 - Fred Cadena (Host)

So I love it. Well, I wanted to let a lot to dig into here. In your career, you've obviously helped a lot of clients deliver success and sometimes call you the turnaround king. I know in the time we worked together at Silverline there were a lot of times that we had projects that that were going south starting to head. That way we'd bring you in to turn them around. But you've also had a lot of success just making sure things got right from the get go. So my question is you know, when you're talking to a client, or for clients that are that are listening to this podcast, how can you, how can you help ensure, like, what are some of the key considerations when you're implementing Salesforce? You know, especially in financial services, which is highly regulated, how can you navigate? You know the things that will come up when you're starting a project to deliver?

04:32 - Mark Baker (Guest)

it successfully? I think that's a great question and I'm going to give I'm going to give a really kind of a kind of a Zen strategic answer to that.

04:42 - Fred Cadena (Host)

I have been doing this a long time.

04:45 - Mark Baker (Guest)

You, like Zen, I have been doing this for a long time. I've known a lot of customers over the years, a lot of different, all different sizes, all different industries, a lot of financial services customers, a lot of HLS, a lot of tech and RCG and all over the place. And my perspective has always been this is kind of my personality I'm always trying to find the unified theory across all customers, so to not see the individuation in an industry but to see what's true across industries. And ultimately I find a couple things are true. Number one some businesses go into an implementation and it is at that point that they discover themselves. And those are some of the bigger challenges.

05:31

Whether you want to change out a process, you want to add a feature, you want to transform an entire line of businesses way of doing an entire function, whatever it is, it starts with you knowing yourself. What do we do, how do we do it, who's involved, what are the rules, what are the timings, what are our success metrics? How do we measure ourselves? Now? And if you, if you can put effort as a customer, if you can go into any kind of an implementation with as much knowledge of that knowledge as possible, you're going to. You're going to start kind of ahead of all of the other customers who are using the discovery process and using the time on the clock, which is cost money right, they're using that time on the clock to discover themselves. Some customers need help to discover themselves and that's totally okay. But know that that's what you're going to be doing and it's not necessarily building its discovery. So the quicker and more complete you can make the discovery process for your consultant, the easier it's going to be for them to build.

06:40

The second thing, I think, is understanding that primarily, everything we do is, for the most part, at some level, about people, and it's about about how the people align and how we talk to each other and how we communicate. You know there are, there are rules and there are some regulations that you know we can look up and we can get the full regulation, we can understand what those are and we don't know. That's not so much the people part of it, but the people part of it is that when we're, when we're implementing for a customer, the most important part is, I think, emotional intelligence, that we need to be able to talk, we need to be able to communicate, we need to be able to say difficult things to each other. We need to be able to hold each other accountable, and that's going to make for a successful relationship, and if you have a successful, if you have a good relationship with your partner boy, it sounds like we're on a very different podcast. I'm married.

07:37 - Fred Cadena (Host)

But it's true with.

07:38 - Mark Baker (Guest)

Mark Baker, that's right, but it's true. Then you're going to, you're going to be able to, you know, get through the rocks that every project is going to come across. Every project goes through difficulties and it's and it's not. You know, how do you? How do you avoid some things, but how do you get through the difficulties, which really makes a difference? And then I think the last thing is and this is I've I've come to this kind of most recently in my career, over the, let's say, over the last five years it's really about the discipline of how do we execute a lot of the basics.

08:13

How are we reporting status? How are we reporting risks? How are we writing risks? Are the risks we're writing clear, do you? You know, this is kind of how I look at a project manager, because I have a pretty distributed team right now and I don't I don't have the luxury of being able to be in every conversation that they're in, but by any means, I kind of know their work by their artifacts, so I read their risks. Do I understand what the risk is not being involved in the project? If I don't understand what the risk is, how is an exec going to understand what the risk is, if they're not involved in the day to day. If I don't feel, if I don't feel that it's actually something at risk, if I don't feel the urgency, if I don't feel the understanding, the appropriate level of concern, then how is the customer going to understand those things? Are we managing finances properly? Are we managing things proactively? Are we trying to? I'm going to say the name Dan Callahan. You remember Dan Callahan?

09:10 - Fred Cadena (Host)

he's my mentor. How could you forget Dan?

09:13 - Mark Baker (Guest)

Callahan Might as well. He used to say let's manage to the windscreen, not the rear view mirror. All those basics are we. Are we managing that way? If you as a customer don't see that happening proactively, on you know for your own that's. You want to escalate that proactively. You don't want to wait and just trust that things should have been happening right. And then we've spent, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars and months and months, and months and we haven't gotten to where we want to be. So are we executing proactively and the discipline of kind of like project management, or if we're executing an agile or we're writing good stories, that sort of thing Makes sense.

09:52 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, that's perfect. It's lovely. I love it. I love the starting off with the Zen and then getting to some like brass tags things. At the end, I want to go to the first thing, because the first thing you said, I think is super critical, which is you have to know where you want to go and you have to know where you are today. Otherwise, you're just going to spin your wheels. You're going to spend a lot of money and time building something that doesn't meet your ultimate business objectives.

10:20

The challenge, like what I want to ask you, is this so I imagine you know I'm thinking you know any business, but especially larger businesses. Right, there's a buying committee, there's a lot of people, but there's usually one key stakeholder, one key executive that's kind of put their neck out and said this is what we need, and then you get all the agreement, you sign the contract. You sign the contract, you know the SaaS contract, you sign the consultant contract, and then you take a step back and you say, well, we haven't defined these things. How do you then, if you're that executive, or if you're the person you know in the PMO, or you're the product owner that's been handed this, how do you then, like have that conversation with your organization of you know what, like to your point, the clock's running right, the money's being spent. How do you really like have that conversation and convince the organization like if we don't take a step back and really do this part meaningfully, we're going to be in trouble? Like that's a hard conversation to have.

11:21 - Mark Baker (Guest)

That's a really hard conversation to have and the answers there are.

11:27

So there's so many components to it. There's, you know, executive level coaching. How do you literally, how do you communicate? There's, when I was in Salesforce services the first time, I used to teach a class with Dan Cowhan on communication skills for consultants and we would everyone that got hired it was through new employee boot camp. Everyone that got hired internationally for Salesforce services would fly into San Francisco for a week and Dan and I would get them for an hour or an hour and a half and we would teach them two communication tools. One was called I'm okay, the bull is dead, and the other one is called the SIPAB, s-c-i-p-a-b. Yeah, and you can look those up. So you know that's a very, very brass text. How do I actually communicate? What's this framework? How do I order the things that I need to communicate and what elements do I include in it so that I'm telling the right story, I'm saying the right things, I'm leading people through a thought process and cluing them into everything that they need to know. Those are very brass text parts of how you do that that you can look up. You can get coached on. The other part of it is I'm going to go back to the emotional intelligence stuff and a lot of it is having the courage to say what needs to be said, understanding that there's some other tools. One of my favorite tools I call this, you know, in my Kung Fu my consultant Kung Fu One of the greatest tools I have is to take your greatest fear and the first thing you do is you go into a conversation and you think it's going to be difficult.

13:09

It's a crucial conversation. We call them crucial conversations in the biz. It's going to be a hard conversation. You're afraid of how people are going to react. Spend time getting in touch with what your biggest fear is. What's my biggest fear for this conversation? They're going to think I'm an idiot. They're going to think I didn't know what I was talking about. They're going to think I reacted too fast. Whatever it is, whatever it is, and then in that conversation you take that fear and you put it on the table in front of you.

13:35

First thing. Look, I got to say some things. I think it's going to be difficult conversation and I'm afraid that you're going to think that we started rash or we started too quickly, or I'm afraid you're going to think that I, whatever it is, and it does two things. First of all, it puts a. It pops the balloon of the power this thing has over you in your own mind. So, whatever your, you know your fear is what? If you're walking into this conversation with fears, they're going to keep you from operating at your highest level. And so if you can kind of pop that loon and take the air out of those fears, you're going to have a better performance. And so that's what the first thing is going to do it's going to take the air out of that balloon. Nobody's going to be able to use it against you because you've put it on the table in front of you and it's kind of been said and it's been brought into the real world, and so it'll. It'll dissipate some of that fear.

14:29

The second thing is there's an element of human nature where people want to be a little bit oppositional sometimes, and if you say to them, I'm afraid you're going to blah, blah, blah, a lot of people are going to be like, no, I'm not going to blah, blah, blah. That's wrong and it's, it's a. It's a subtle bit of kung fu. It doesn't always work and sometimes, when it doesn't work, it's. It's a it's a difficult situation to be in. However, I'm telling you, it works most of the time and you just the conversation stays off that track and and usually, if you're not an idiot and you have good data and you're not, you know go all over the place. It's a conversation that you need to have. It's a discussion that needs to be had. You, decisions need to be made and you can get out of the rocks and onto. Let's all collaborate and and figure out the right way to move forward.

15:25 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I love that. I think those are phenomenal techniques. They definitely Use those and can also vouch for their efficacy. I mean, at the end of the day, you still have to be competent, you still have to come with good data, you still have to have a plan, you know, to move forward. But those are, those are great techniques, like to both like remove your own internal anxiety and also to like frame the conversation and hopefully get it to a productive place More quickly.

15:53

I would also pivot now a little bit to some of the like more brass tax, of getting to the implementation, and I think one of the things I have found the most challenging in Some of the upfront like less the less the business process discovery and more like some of the initial like design.

16:13

You know, solution design is Aligning the the business processes, is aligning what the business wants to try to do on a platform with the capabilities of the system be it Salesforce or something else right, without Overengineering, without like starting to make the system work in ways that it wasn't designed to work right. People have a vision, you know. They show up in a room with a vision of this is how I you know we've done it this way for years, or this is how I want to do it, or I've always dreamed about doing it this way, and Frequently that meets the reality of a platform, and that's not always the right thing to do, especially if it's not secret sauce right, like sometimes it's secret sauce and you've got to build something custom. But if it's not, like, how do you? Number one, make sure that you're not Designing things that way. And, number two, again, you know, navigate that with your product owner and with your, with your business stakeholders.

17:07 - Mark Baker (Guest)

That is. That is such a. It's such an art. There's definitely science to it and an experienced solution architect or functional architect. Right, you, you develop, you develop your process for for walking through all this stuff. And how do I understand what they do now and how do I capture it in a way that we can all look at it and how do you write it down? I I it's been a long time since I interacted at that level like to find solutions myself. I've been in more leadership for a while, but I'm a I'm a big fan of visual. I'm a I'm a big fan of using color and I'm a big fan of things like story maps to kind of flush all that stuff out.

17:52

Another Callaghanism is go wide before you go deep. Right when you're trying to start, you capture all the categories Before you start to drill down into things. And understanding that kind of discipline and being able to control the conversation so that you know we don't want to rabbit hole here. We want to stay at the top level. We want to stay at this level. What level are we talking at? Making sure that you have the right people in the room that need to be in the room. This is definitely when I would over index on having people listening in that maybe don't need to listen in. I would rather have them there and then say, oh, we didn't need them, then need them and not have them in the conversation.

18:34

Again, back to the theme of businesses knowing themselves. Most businesses, in every industry I've worked in, have Certain employees who are kind of like the SMEs, who just know how things happen. They know how things get done and you got to make sure you know who all those people are. Are they here and Under the consultant? You need to understand how they fit together. And then you get it all documented and we all look at it and we do our best to make sure that We've captured everything that we can possibly capture.

19:09

And then I'm a huge fan of prototyping. I'm a huge fan of prototyping because there's something that happens when you get Something in your hands that you start to use as a, as a user. It changes the way that you think about it. It gets it out of the realm of Theory and into the, into the real world, the literal world, and that's when you'll capture. Oh my god, I forgot about this. How well, how, how is that supposed to happen? Well, you didn't talk about that. That's an entire thing we didn't talk about. Well, I'm glad we did it now and, and it's always, always the thing that you, you got to think about as a consultant and really as a buyer is let's do, let's do as much as we can to capture this stuff before we start spending real money to you know, to build and test and quality assurance and change management and all this other stuff before we really start spending the money. Let's measure twice, cut once, measure thrice, cut once, that sort of thing.

20:16 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I think I love that.

20:17

I love, I love prototyping.

20:20

I think even even you know, with with my length of experience and understanding the Salesforce platform, somebody will describe something to me to be built and I'm gonna envision it differently.

20:31

You know, then, they are right and and and you, especially when working with people that the Business stakeholders and others that are new to the platform you can stand a room, you can talk about a process, you can look at a process map until they see it, you know, on the screen and they, I would even say like they touch it themselves and like go through and click through and and realize like this is the actual thing that I'm gonna be doing. I'm gonna ask my people to do every day, for hours a day, like it really doesn't become real. I love that and I love, you know, in the agile process, you know the, the frequent feedback that you get in during, during every sprint, and and just, you know you don't want to go into a hole and and come back out in six months and say, ta-da, this is what we built right, because I can right, I can guarantee you it's gonna be wrong.

21:18 - Mark Baker (Guest)

You know, speaking of agile, I want to put a plug in for this. I'm a huge proponent of the retro process as being the key, a great retro process, as being the key Towards a successful project and the re and. The reason I say that is because you, you have to ask the right questions. We often ask what went well, and I don't care about what went well in a retro process. We also ask what could have gone better, and I hate that question.

21:46

What I want to ask in my retro process is I want to ask two questions how can we go faster and how can we get more right the first time? Those are the two fundamental questions I want to ask, and the only answers that I accept in the retro process are Concrete, positive steps, things we can do. How do we do it? Not know? We ought to Know. Someone should know that every user story will be marked with the stakeholders name for analysis when it is created, and, and and. John is going to enforce that going forward, whatever it is, this is how we're gonna. It's how we're gonna get more done. This is how we're gonna go faster. A really great retro process applies to the whole Project, not just the build and it. It's how you just get better and better and better and better at executing together.

22:44 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, I love that and I I'm with you. I it's not because I don't like positive things, but, as you went, well, I mean other other than potentially contributing to team around saying like, hey, you know, this was great, it's not gonna help you get better, and and I love the, the idea of making concrete, you know concrete steps and like Putting somebody's name behind it and and just making sure it happens, moving forward, right, I'm curious as well, like in in in the whole process. What are the things that frequently gets left behind or gets left to the side or neglected? Is Change management? I'm a huge advocate of change management. I think you are too. Tell me a little bit about like change management and it's role and and when it should start and how it should work the.

23:34 - Mark Baker (Guest)

23:57

Kim was working for blue blue shield of California at the time and I was, you know, a very green, very new solution architect and Kim drew a figure on the board. We were talking about change management. I think I think Kim was ex-PWC, I think correct. Forgive me, kim, if I got that wrong and she said let me tell you what change management is, mark. And I said okay, tell me please. And she drew this. She drew a quadra, a four quadrant. You know the, the huge plus on the board, and it's four quadrants and and it was, it was almost like an upside down Normal distribution, so a big you with the tails on either end.

24:36

And she said this is, this is the user's experience of change. And you start, you're on the left and you're really high and you feel really good and, because you don't know any better. You're just, you don't know, to feel bad, and then you, you go down and you go down and that's when you really start to to grapple with the change. And then the very, very bottom is when you feel the worst and it's you cross over from quadrant I don't know what quadrant is from the very two quadrants on the bottom, and and then you slowly start to come back up and Eventually, long after you, your experience of using the new system Europe, you're it's about the same as it was using the old system.

25:18

This is the change management curve. Every user goes through it. Some go to different levels of depth, I mean, it's not exactly the same. However, for the most part, this is what happens. It, this is what happens and you cannot avoid it.

25:34

There is one way, she said, and and to avoid it, to shallow out the curve, to avoid the depth, and that is to create a positive vision of the future in the user's mind. What's in it from you when you get to this new world? What's it going to look like as you go through the, the difficulty of Understanding how you're going to do your job on this new, unfamiliar system? The thing that feeds your family, the thing that sends your kids to school, that's going to help you retire on this new system that you're unfamiliar with.

26:11

Having that positive vision for the future created and for you this is what it's going to look like when you're on the other side of it is the only thing that we know of that she that she said that we know of that will help you really shallow at that curve, and so you know that's a lot of what, for me, change management comes back to is we need to create that vision, we need to communicate that vision, we need to make sure that people understand and and I also need to make sure that my customer understands People are going to go through that journey and you you not only can't stop them, you shouldn't try. They are going to have feelings about, about the new system that you're giving them. Let them feel their feelings. I always say don't try and make people feel things. Let them feel their feelings, but give them the tools they need to go through that journey as quickly as possible.

27:01 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I love that and I have. I definitely experienced that firsthand. I think the only thing I might add is like, on that end of the bell curve, I'm always shooting for that, that second point, to be higher than where we started. Right, I don't want to get them back to where they were. I want, yeah, my goal is to always stand up a system that that makes your life better.

27:23

I your story reminded me of a client I worked with a long, a long while ago it's probably, I don't know, seven, eight years ago is a mutual fund distribution company and we were, we were implementing sales force and one of the, the key groups we were, we were implementing poor, was internal wholesalers, and you know they're, they're sitting, you know, in in an office somewhere you know supporting you know two, three, sometimes four external wholesalers and a lot of what they did was basically, you know Processing requests, right, information requests, whatever, and they had one thing that they probably had to do half a dozen times a day, like to, you know, take a request from an external and you know select information and get that information out to the advisors, right, it's. It's a pretty common thing in in mutual fund distribution, asset management, and in the old system that would Literally take eight minutes and in the new system it took like 30 seconds. And we were they were having a sales kickoff meeting, the, the, the. The system wasn't gonna be released for another three or four months, but we wanted to, like, have some sizzle and we did a lot of things. One of the things we did for the internal wholesaler Breakout session, we made a video side by side here's the old process, here's the new process and, like 30 seconds into the, into the new process, the.

28:45

It's done that this old eight-minute process is still running and we just had, like the internal wholesaler, like up, you know making coffee, you know getting getting coffee, like talking to their neighbor, like picking up the phone and talking to you Know, like there's all these other things you can do because you're not clicking these buttons for eight minutes. And it really kind of gave this like, very like real and almost you know they didn't have hands-on, but very tactical like Realization of this is coming and it's really gonna make my life better. And then, of course, you have to, you have to deliver on the promise, right, you can't? You can't then have it come out and and not work that way, but I think that's extremely powerful.

29:23 - Mark Baker (Guest)

You just said a thing which I want to go back, and I want to. I want to retroactively apply to all the questions You've asked me before so far, which is, and mainly starting with how can customers go into implementations With a better chance of success? The one thing that very few customers do is baseline their KPIs. Boy, that was a lot of jargon, but you're doing your. Your spending money to do a thing let's take it out of. Well, I just want to do it better. Be specific what do you want to do better and how do you know it's better? Measure it before you start to spend, but before you get the even start to hire your consultant, measure it. Your. Your example is so great. We want this process. It takes eight minutes. Now, I wanted to take less time. This is how we're gonna know we're successful. Give your consultant a target to shoot for and they have a chance of hitting it. You.

30:21 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, this is this is gonna be a broad question, but for for big institutions, you know, when you have Multiple lines of business, you know multiple stakeholders. You know, and and let's assume that the decision has been made that everybody belongs in In one sandbox, right? Not not a development sandbox, but it belongs in one pool, right, we're also being in one pool. We don't need seven pools for seven lines of business. How do you manage that Complexity? How do you navigate? You know differing demands from differing stakeholders.

30:55 - Mark Baker (Guest)

It's a that.

30:55

That's. That's kind of where the art and the science meet. You know, there's there's a lot of tools we can use. There's a lot of seven different business units. How do you design your orgs? There's there's a lot of architects who could probably spend an entire podcast Talking about how to design your orgs and where your, where does your data live and where's your data get mastered?

31:17

The mule soft approach we would. We would want to create an API layer so that it you know it, you define when is the system of record and then every downstream system. We're going to the API to move data around. This gives us some advantages. So putting this API layer in the middle, instead of making it pure system to system of communication is it gives us a level of abstraction so that as Systems change, maybe systems get ripped out and replaced all this other stuff All you have to do is you have to replace the API in the middle or Adjust the API in the middle, which is a lot easier than going to every downstream system and changing a point-to-point integration. Those are some of the brass tacks Methods for for doing that sort of thing.

32:05

How do you I, how do you as a business, make decisions. That's that can be very difficult. I know the the Salesforce would probably want me to talk about data cloud at some point. That data cloud is the place to put all of your data and you can then decide how to roll it up and how to how to master it and and make decisions. And where are you going to be making your analysis? And, and Lord knows, ai is coming and we need all of our data in one place. We can train our various LLMs on our own data and go data cloud, but that's it.

32:37

It only gets more important to think about this stuff. Where is my data? What is my data? What are my? What is my data? Both, you know, in in repose and in transit? Where does it live? How do I bring it all together? There's. It's not necessarily something that you can tell a business To do the same as any other business, but every business needs to think about it and you need to think about it with a strategic mindset.

33:06

The you know I'm going to speak from the mule soft point of view again. You need to think about the way that you're moving data around your organization and your connections, and you want it to be flexible. You want it to not be brittle. A lot of these point-to-point connections are very brittle and they create a lot of tech debt, so that if I'm, you know, integrating SAP with see it with Salesforce directly and I have all these other systems, then if something changes, I have all this tech debt that I need to that I incur in order to make changes, to keep all of my data correct, whereas with, you know, an API-led approach, it's very flexible and it's easy to make changes and actually there's a concept of reusability.

33:48

If I've got like to get customer API that works for all these other sorts of systems, not just one connection one. You know the source and target Connection so I'm able to reuse those API's in lots of different places. Get customer as something that developers for all stripes. They understand how to use API's without being too product specific. Every customer it's. It's something that you're going to need as a strategy. You're going to need it in the AI world. What's coming is your own companies AI, your AI trained on your data, and In order for that to work, you need your data to be right, you need it to be in one place and you need it to be, you know, accessible. You're gonna have to put some strategy into something that I think a lot of business have not been Putting strategy into for a long time. They just kind of kicked again down the road and that's not gonna cut it.

34:43 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I think it's a great point and I'll say I've seen a number of times I know you've seen a number of times system implementations fail, not not even so much because the, the, the data isn't there, but because the data isn't trustworthy.

35:00

There's there's latency issues, there's accuracy issues, there's mapping issues and and you roll it out to users and and it's very hard to like rebuild that trust.

35:11

Like the first time a user Sees a customer record and they're on the phone and they give that customer incorrect information. It's very hard then to rebuild that trust. I'm curious, like you know, would it be in the early stages, whether it's you know there's not a lot of net, net new stuff out there, but you know whether it's a net new or whether it's, you know, a major enhancement or you're bringing a new Division or team or new, you know, maybe external application on to to a system. Like when do you fit that integration strategy in in the upfront planning process, right, like we think about the business objectives and the business outcomes. You know you start thinking about solution and like then do you think about the data, do you think about the data Before the solution? Like how do you really kind of navigate that to make sure you're both Thinking about it in a meaningful way and also like not forgetting anything that that might be needed.

36:12 - Mark Baker (Guest)

38:06

What I would encourage people to do is to think about data and integration not as a Matter of moving data from a to b, but get you know. An integration architect is gonna think about, kind of like what are, what are entities and when? Where do they exist and where do we want them to be, where are they kept and where are they mastered and what's the sort, what is the real source of truth and how does the Organization need to define these things? And a good integration architect you definitely want them in the room when you are beginning to talk about things, but they don't. They don't need to be involved. It's, it's a, it's a real art to know how much to put them in and how much they need to be there. They don't need to let you know, they don't need to be involved in the UI for the most part. Sometimes they can't oh wait, you forgot about this. Where's this in the UI? But not for the most part. They don't get involved in process, but it's very helpful for them to think about these things. And Then, if you're working with a sales force architect, the thing that they're gonna have to come to grips with is we want to move some Logic out of the sales force system and into the integration layer.

39:24

We, we talk and the integration, we talk about orchestration. So what is the order? If I've got a you know, get order, get order status. If I need to get an order status, maybe I need to go to two systems to get that status, maybe I need to go to three systems. I need to go to my ERP and then I need to go to you you know, ups to get a shipping status. You know a whole bunch of stuff. The integration architect is gonna say well, let's put that in the orchestration layer and here's how we expose it, so that my user experience layer is only making one call and Anyone else that needs this around the organization. We can architect it in such a way so that it's as Reusable as possible. And if somebody else comes along and says, wait, it's missing a couple things that I need, well then it's just a matter of then. We just kind of can tack it on, as opposed to having to rearchitect. Does it make sense?

40:22 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense, right? So you know you need this for, let's say, somebody the contact center to answer a customer request is coming in and Then down the road, maybe you roll out a mobile app and you want people to just look it up themselves. You can use the same API for both and makes them that's exactly right.

40:41 - Mark Baker (Guest)

Have you been educated on API led before? Did you did this? Did you get that in this conversation?

40:46 - Fred Cadena (Host)

No, I mean, I, I've been a big fan of API led design. I think I agree with you. I mean, I don't know that I would say it's an opinion or a fact, but I agree with you in that it is especially for more complex enterprises, places where you're dealing with. You know a number of source systems and and a number of Consumer systems. It is really kind of the only way to do integrations in a scalable manner, right? I mean, if you're doing everything point-to-point, you know, you're, you're, you're constantly, you know building the next thing, you're, you're redoing a lot of your work and and, quite frankly, it's, it's just not, it's not scale, it's not tenable. You can't, you can't support that. Hey, you're gonna have so many developers working on Integrations like it's just, it's, it's too difficult to manage. And I'm also a fan and I think, again, it's one of those things that you know when you're, I think, when I think architects are all you know, whatever system they're in, they're all artists and they, they all love their, their platform and their tool set.

41:48

And I agree with you that it can be a challenge sometime to get somebody who's a sales force. I would take to think about. Well, maybe sales force is not the best. If sales force can do it, great. Maybe it's not the right place to do this right. Maybe the right place to make this, this decision To bring these data points together, is somewhere else, so that it's consumable by by more people and you're not, you know, rebuilding the thing on three different applications. But but again to your point, it is one of those things that you, you can't decide halfway through To. To make that approach, you have to be very thoughtful about it up front, or you've got a lot, of, a lot of rip and replace and it and it carries with it.

42:30 - Mark Baker (Guest)

I don't know consequences is the right word, but there are some consequences to it. It's. It's a technical approach, right? The sales force value proposition has always been sales people can do it themselves. You know, if you can write an Excel formula, you can write a sales force workflow, and that's true to some extent, like you still need admins and you have security and all this other Stuff. But it was very much a self-service or a citizen developer kind of a platform API let is not citizen developer, no, it's. It doesn't work that way.

42:59

You need, you need Serious people, probably with CS degrees. You need people who understand Architect, system architecture and environmental architecture. They understand clouds, they understand all this kind of stuff, how to move data securely over HTTP, all that kind of stuff. However, like you said, in any kind of a complex environment, in my experience a very small integration team very small compared to the size of the what we call the core side can turn the integration work stream from the riskiest, most difficult, most you know, problem-laden part of the of the program to the least risk, the most successful, the greenest part of the program. It can, it can happen for you, but you got to do it.

43:47 - Fred Cadena (Host)

You. That is true, you've got it. You've got to do it. Well, this has been fantastic. I'll ask one more question before we wrap up. This episode is dropping during trailhead DX. It should drop Thursday, whatever. That is. Thursday, the seventh, I think, is the Thursday of trailhead DX.

44:04

We have a broad, you know, listener group that includes, you know, you know financial professionals and business-sized stakeholders, as well as you know more Salesforce practitioners and Hands-on people.

44:18

And one of the things that I get asked a lot when I met, you know, dreaming conferences or dream force, or I've actually never been to trailhead DX. I'm kind of excited to go for the first time and see what that's like. But one of the questions I get a lot is like how do I Make the transition from you know, being an accidental admin or from being somebody that's that's you know interested in Salesforce or got thrown into Salesforce because they sit in marketing or what have you, into a Salesforce professional? And frequently, because of my background, people want to know how do I get into consulting? And I know one of your passions is Coaching and developing people. So you know, if you think about, like how you navigate that conversation, like what would your advice be to someone. That is like I got exposed to Salesforce and maybe I didn't choose it, but I really like it now. How do I make that transition?

45:11 - Mark Baker (Guest)

It is one of my passions. I have worked with mentoring veterans for a long time who are making the transition from the military to the non-military professional workforce, and so talked through a lot of them through how do I get into Salesforce. The environment is changing over the years. It's not like it was 10 years ago. There's a lot of people. Also, the product is changing. The product is becoming a little bit more technical. It's a very big product. There's a lot to know. That said, my advice is still the same. First of all, there's an immense amount of self-tutoring options that are available certification, etc. Avail yourself of all of that. Find what interests you and then I typically tell people, find ways to do it.

46:09

47:25

That's when I found out I had all of a sudden gotten Salesforce skills. I kind of knew what I was talking about. I got hired by Model Metrics and I was off to the races. I would say same thing If you want to learn, go, do, figure out. I tell people there's probably a lot of businesses in town who are trying to use it, maybe some nonprofits Just pro bono. Hey, do you use Salesforce? I can help you out. Do you have a friend who uses Salesforce? Write reports, write workflows, write flows, that sort of thing. Then eventually you'll have skills and you'll develop a portfolio of stuff you can show people. That'll take you further than anything else. You can say, well, I've been doing it and here's proof that's going to help you get a job or anything.

48:10 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I love that. I think Salesforce is a platform that absolutely lends itself to learning by application. Certainly you need to grad yourself in the fundamentals and learn some of the theory of how things are designed and when to use what, but then the practical application. I love the direction Salesforce has gone. With Trailhead and more hands-on, they get incredibly easy to get a developer org and go do stuff. I think that makes a ton of sense. Mark, I really appreciate it. Thank you for the time that you've been joining the podcast. Hopefully we can get together when I'm in San Francisco next week. Either way, it's good to catch up. Thanks.

48:52 - Mark Baker (Guest)

Fred for having me. It's so good to be here. Hope we can do this again sometime. Sounds good, Take care.

49:01 - Fred Cadena (Host)

All right and we're back with Quick Takes. I'm super excited. This is the first complete two-part episode we're doing in about a month Schedules, I think finally calm down at least a little bit. But I'm joined again this week with Eric and Josh. How are you guys doing?

49:15 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

Hello, I'm pretty pumped, I got to admit I'm pretty excited.

49:20 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

Yeah, doing great man. Good to see you guys, Nice to be back.

49:23 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Good to see you guys as well. So sitting here March 6th, the day before the episode drops, and first thing I wanted to talk about was just yesterday. I didn't notice it, quite frankly, because I was on a plane most of the day, but Metta, Facebook Instagram went down all day and I think, eric, you were just saying in our little pre-conversation that LinkedIn went down for an hour today. Yeah social networks. What is up with that?

49:49 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

I don't know when. Maybe we're being attacked by aliens. I'm not sure what's going on. Yeah, it's probably not a huge deal, because I participated in a Slack community with a bunch of awesome bank marketers called the Social Bankers and there was some jokes about how the quiet is just kind of overwhelming when social media goes down. You don't have to respond to comments or any of that and the birds chirp and the sun comes out and just world tends to go a little bit normal. But it got me thinking about the flip side of that.

50:23

I know that there's a lot of businesses out there that really leverage on social media for building a brand and connecting and engaging, which is awesome and you should. But don't do it at the peril of ignoring your own house, and I often refer to as building social media channels as building a house on Least Land where the landlord can do whatever they want to do when they buy it Insert Twitter ex-joke here, probably but don't ignore the content creation part of it, of making sure that your website's got great info, that you're producing articles, that you're blogging and that can be great ammunition to put out into the social media world. But collecting email addresses, providing value through newsletters. And I know, josh, you made mention of a practice that you do on a regular basis on LinkedIn just to encase that goes poof into a big hole and Microsoft decides you know what LinkedIn's not worth it anymore. What happens to all the connections that you've made there? So maybe you can share a little bit of your disaster recovery plan from a LinkedIn perspective.

51:32 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

Yeah, so for LinkedIn. Just to jump back on that topic real quick, First of all, I don't think anyone's going to scrap LinkedIn at all anytime soon. I worry a lot less about business interfering with your records and information that you have online and on social media, In other words, all your post content, articles that you've written, things like that. I worry a lot more about satellites being taken out, like that kind of thing natural disaster.

52:00 - Fred Cadena (Host)

This internet cable and the Red Sea that's at risk right now.

52:04 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

Yeah, all that stuff. So that's more my concern than just maybe a bad business decision. So what I do is I have a reminder. It's a monthly reminder, and once a month I go in and I download all my contacts. You can download so much stuff from LinkedIn and I can't remember exactly where you go. But just Google, download contacts from LinkedIn and you'll get a little two minute tutorial, I'm sure, but it works great. And then you've got all your records. So, god forbid, something happened. You'll know who you were. You know you'll have all your first connections. You can even download all the conversations that you've had with these people too, right? So I just do contact information only and what will happen is you'll click it. It has to think for a while. It depends on how many people you've got. If you've got 15, 20,000 contacts, it's going to take a little longer. Then you'll get an email.

52:56 - Fred Cadena (Host)

A little flex there. A little flex there on Josh's part.

52:59 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

There you go. Well, yeah, there you go. Okay, so I got to know some people I know zoom to 20,000, like two years. I was one of the first LinkedIn guys, literally like I think I was the millionth user of LinkedIn and now there's 700 million, so I definitely did not take advantage of the thing as much as I could have in the first 12 years, or whatever it was. Anyway, you download it, it'll send you a message, your downloads ready, and then you just capture it and save it in a file, right, and back it up on a hard drive and then print it out on papyrus I don't know, I know what that font is.

53:38 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

I might skip that last.

53:38 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

Yeah.

53:40

I think about how many files you've got a lot of good posts and stuff, then you're going to want to keep that. So if you don't have it saved in an Evernote or G drive or something like that and you're just writing really smart stuff and posting it all the time and it could be an article someday, or it is an article now but you don't have it saved anywhere except for the social media platform, well, you're doing yourself a disservice because you may find that you get kicked out for some reason. I mean, that happens to YouTubers and Instagrammers all the time, right, all the time. So just make sure that you are backing up your stuff. That's all I'll say. Yep, good point.

54:16 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. I love that. So I don't have a solution for the second part, which is the other half of it is your audience. Like you know years ago when I first started, I still have a personal website with blog. It gets some traffic. I'm not good at it, but I do. Occasionally when I post something long form on a LinkedIn or something else, I'll put it there too. But I don't have a good answer. I don't know if I have.

54:43

You guys have given me thought to if, if something were to go down, you know get bought, get, you know de-platformed or whatever. You know rebuilding that, that audience. And rather than, yeah, I guess you can send everybody an email if you have their email address, one at a time, and say, hey, come find me over here. I guess that's what Blue Sky was trying to solve with their kind of open platform and I have a Blue Sky and me and the other seven guys that are on Blue Sky. I guess we're set. But but I don't, I don't know. I don't know if you guys have given me thought to like, how do you rebuild an audience, like if, if you've gone through this whole effort to build an audience on Instagram and Instagram, for whatever reason. You know it's unrecoverable, like somebody just deletes the source code and it's gone. You know how do you, how do you rebuild that?

55:32 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

I think cross pollination is what's key, right. You want to have one beyond more than one platform that's not necessarily owned by the same parent company, right? So, being on Facebook and you know whatever, I don't even know how many platforms meta has, right?

55:49 - Fred Cadena (Host)

So you know Threads, instagram, facebook.

55:53 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

Yeah, exactly, so okay I find it interesting to start with threads, but I'm just going to leave that one out there.

56:00 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

I think it's important to be on more than one platform for that very reason. Right, just cross pollinate, right? You direct people from your whatever it is I'm, I'm I'm barely on Facebook, but you know, if you take, get your Facebook followers to follow you on your LinkedIn, get your LinkedIn people to follow you on Facebook or on Instagram, instagram people to follow your podcast on Buzzsprout, it's just cross pollinate. It's not going to be perfect, but it's at least socializing that amongst everyone hopefully helps kind of build in a little bit of stability.

56:34 - Fred Cadena (Host)

So great, great time to remind everybody to follow the Banking on Description podcast on Instagram and on LinkedIn, and we're downloading podcasts and download the transcripts and print them on Papyrus.

56:49

Hello, gentlemen. Well, you know we can't really have another episode and not talk about AI. You know there was some some discussion in our prep this week about how FIs can say yes to AI and say compliant. It's very prescient for me being out at Trailhead DX it is, you know, ai central over here but I'd love to hear the thoughts about. You know, what is it that financial services companies are going to have to do to get everybody, you know, compliance and business and everybody, kind of sit around and say yes, this is a risk that we're willing to take.

57:24 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

Who wants to jump?

57:24 - Josh Matthews (Co-host)

in first. Well, you guys are the financial guys. So yeah, you jump on.

57:29 - Eric Cook (Co-host)

Yeah, I'm having to talk about AI and TDX and things like that, but this is your bag well it and it kind of Dovetails with a lot of what I just got done sitting through today, as Fred mentioned, today's March 6th, and I sat in on the marketing AI institutes AI for writers summit and there was a lot of discussion, not just from a general marketing perspective, but they talked a lot about compliance. They had an attorney on that, was very well versed in copyright and other sorts of nuances as it relates to artificial intelligence and what is and is not copyrightable in the eyes of the legal system. But a lot of what they said, which I think rings true in the article that that we've been talking about, is starting with a business case or a use case identify what the risks and threats and opportunities are and then guide your employees and empower them not necessarily restricting them through the utilization of well-written and clear policies and making sure that, whether it's a bank or any type of an organization for that matter, that you are very clear in what your employees can and cannot do, what is and is not required to be disclosed, what information you can and cannot put into Any of these platforms, and whether it's the banking industry or the medical industry or the legal industry or the service or manufacturing. There's likely confidential, sensitive, personally identifiable information. Banking nerds, pii, you don't want in those engines. You need to review those things and, just like when I think all of us are old enough to remember the days of social media arriving, I remember having conversations with banks early on that I said well, what are you gonna do about this Facebook thing?

59:26

Oh, we're not allowing it into our network so we don't have to worry about it. But I know sure that their employees were jumping on Facebook on their phones in the bathroom and after hours and out in the parking lot Talking about stuff and sharing things. Having a solution of you. We're not gonna put AI into the bank because we're locking it at the, at the firewall. It doesn't mean that your employees aren't going home and using chat, gpt to help them craft policies and blog posts and procedures and meetings and do all sorts of other cool analysis stuff that they think they can do because they don't have any rules that tell them that they can't.

59:58 - Fred Cadena (Host)

Sorry, good, no no, I think you're exactly right. I was gonna say you know, I know a lot of lenders, right? You're not telling me lenders that are out there hungry to go Under, right, more lows. You're not gonna be leveraging their personal network on Facebook assume that something like that exists and, quite frankly, if they're really good at their jobs, you're not gonna tell me that that the people they know and have done business with aren't gonna reach out to them there Just because it's more convenient back where people were on. We're on Facebook.

So I think I think the answer is to you know, quite frankly, for banks to be proactive and and other institutions and put out AI in a way that has Guard reels around it, certainly like the, the low-cost, low-budget way of doing it is, you know, kind of Eric, your suggestion of you know, give some guidelines. You know, this is what you can put in. This is what you can't put in. You know, I think, with, with a little bit more investment and this has gotten significantly cheaper in like the last six months, like when I was giving a talk at Midwest Dreaming in the summer and I talked about some of this stuff, I had a slide that talked about like Dollar signs associated with some of these solutions. It used to be much, much more expensive than it is now, but we were just talking, you know, about. You know, out here at Trailhead DX, sales force has a way that you can expose your, your data in sales force, which, if you're a bank or another institution that's leveraging sales versus CRM, you've got all your customer data in there in a way that you can, like you know, generate the props for the bankers and other employees. You can generate the API calls on back. You can make sure everything that's flagged as PII is masked and then you can Governe, you know which, which model they go to. Like that I mean, obviously, if we're on sales force, that's one solution.

There's other ways of doing that, other platforms where you can kind of put some of those guardrails around it. You know I've talked to banks out there in the last you know a few months that are building, you know, on their own, you know technology, basically their own chatter face that's using, you know, kind of their own internal chat. Gpt that, you know, has some of that pre-processing in there that's like okay, that that looks like an account number. I'm not gonna let that go out. Oh, that looks like you know other PII. I'm not gonna let that go out. You know it kind of. You know it masks it and it sends a message back to the employee. But I think you know if it's kind of like prohibition right, like if you make it illegal and you make it hard to do, you're just gonna encourage people to go around and do it. You know, outside, outside the bounds of the institution.

I mean really good example, way to get in front of it.

Yeah, that's a great Josh, that's a. That's a great example. I mean, anyone who's watched Boardwalk Empire knows what happens there. Right, it's like it's not that good. Right, because criminals are creative, even if they're low-level criminals or accidental criminals, they're very creative and if you haven't thought about it yet, they will, right, yeah, they absolutely will. And, by the way, how hard it, how hard would it be for some nefarious Russian organization to quickly identify all bank employees, right, access their IP and then start looking at all their stuff from bank records? So, yeah, if account numbers are whatever 16 digits and you see 16 digits in a row, that AI should know like oh, this is, we need to alert my tea, not just one locket, but alert IT, like this person misusing that, yeah, yeah absolutely.

Eric. Yep, no, I'm in total agreement. I think the there's a grid based approach that one of the presenters today talked about, and I think it might even been mentioned in the article. But think of your use cases and then think about and I think this is one, and I know I fall victim to it as well, because I'm always one chasing the shiny object insert conversation about the rabbit R1 in the future at some point, right, gentlemen, but think about do you have any tools that you already own that are doing some of this?

And you know, with Microsoft co-pilot now rolling out to the masses and being available for 30 or so bucks a month, you know you don't have to go out and find. You know we got to use platforms like Jasper and we got to give a subscription to chat, gpt and we got to have an image generator and all this. You can turn that on in an ecosystem that you've already vetted, you already approve. You already have sensitive customer data inside of Excel sheets in office 365 that likely are in the cloud. That you're probably comfortable with, or, if not, you need to revisit where your files are at.

But you may. You may have Tools already at your disposal that can fill the need that you're already familiar with, and then it's a matter of just taking that little extra Step to determine what happens when we enable AI and where does that information go, just to confirm, and how can we provide some learning and some training on that, because few of these platforms provide any sort of instruction manual. When you get them, they just turn it on. Claude released version three just this week, but they're other than a press release and hey, we're now GPT for a level. There's really nothing, a lot you know, nothing detailed as far as instructions. You just get in and bump around and figure it out.

There's gonna be plugins for this stuff, though. Right, like, we've all used extensions on on chat, gpt or other platforms by now I, or systems by now, I would assume. If not, you're missing out on half the fun, because it's basically like if you're doing WordPress and all you do is PHP code, right, like, okay, get some extensions, make your life a lot easier a lot easier and I think that this is not gonna be any different.

There's going to be some modules or plugins, and maybe even I mean I don't know how much I would trust Open source code. You know, if you're not paying for it, it's like someone might be able to get in and mess with it, because I worry about the security features and how much it's talking and are you getting updates and what's that look like. So, but, but there should be a plug-in if someone hasn't developed it already. They're developing it right now. I promise you that's going to be the easy plug. I like this one's for community banking. Right, you need these four sets of features, these different permissions, and off we go, right.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean again, I think if, if you're an institution on Sales force, you absolutely should be looking at sales force because you know if you're using it the way that it's designed. You know all your customer data is in there. They've done a lot to build those protections around that and you can. You know they haven't bring your own model, so you can. You can opt into open AI or anthropic or there's several others, so they, you can even build your own model and On Amazon or something else and plug that in if you're, if you're really ambitious.

How hard would it be said I'm sorry, I didn't mean go ahead, I'm sorry.

Oh no, I was gonna say, if you're, if you're not on sales force, I'd be asking, like I'd be asking my, my vendors, whether it's it's core, whether it's, you know, a Marketing vendor, a CRM vendor, wherever I am kind of mastering my customer data, like what? Where are you on this? You know AI adoption curve. You know I want to start bringing these tools in. I would love to do it, josh, to your point, with a plug-in that plugs into the system when my data already is in a way that you know is is monitoring and making it compliant.

Yep, yep, I'm kind of curious. Do you think some of these when we get these plugins? Do you think some of these plugins will allow us to potentially? You know, maybe we're trying to do an image creation and maybe we could create an image with white Nazis instead of just Multicultural Nazis. What do you think about that? Of course I'm making a joke here in reference to Gemini. Did you guys hear about this?

Oh yeah, they hear about it.

And their and their response was sorry, we'll do better are bad. Yeah, yeah I.

Whoops. I really would love to know what has been happening at Google, the last I don't know, 15 years? I mean, I don't know for sure for sure, but if they weren't the very first investing in AI, they were pretty darn early, early on, and just every time they come out with something public it's a flop, like the first Bard. We talked about it. It was not great and it was half. I don't want to say fake, but I think what we talked about in the time was it was half edited and engineered. This was obviously a huge flop. I mean, and I get, I am all for AI's removing bias, but if you ask for generate a picture of a Nazi or generate a picture of a founding father, we all know that was just the historical truth of what those people and who those people were you don't. That's not removing bias, that's just being factually incorrect.

Yeah, it's like, oh God, what's that guy's name? Luis Manuel, who did Hamilton? Lin-muel Miranda, Lin-Muel Miranda. I'm so bad with names. That's a perfect example of a complicated one for me. Yeah, if you type in founding father, it shouldn't be his photo that comes up, right, right.

Like it's absolutely.

It's silly and I am with you. Google has been bonking hard for like a year and a half. They've been bonking pretty hard. I mean, they're calling for the CEO's head. Morale, supposedly, is at an all time low right now in the organization. I don't know how much of that is the leadership or just the sign of the times and layoffs or the woke stuff, woke backlash or what's going on. But it's like the right hand's not talking to the left hand and it takes nothing. Think of Anheuser-Busch. It takes nothing to wreck your brand. It really takes nothing, and it's mostly when people aren't talking to one another.

Yeah, I think it's got to come from the top right, like I mean, whether or not, I mean, obviously Sundar is not there making every decision in every division, but like the leadership of the guidance has to come, and it seems clear to me more and more that he is the Steve Ballmer leader of Google, and they just need somebody different. They need new leadership. I don't know who that leadership would be I'm certainly not a Google insider but I just think they need somebody that's going to be a little more visionary, a little bit more, be able to bring people together and really drive to a result, and it's clear that it's not been him.

Yeah, and I think it's a pressure thing, right, like? People are feeling this pressure to get out in front with everything. Like every business idea, everybody wants to be first. Right, of course, we all know first isn't always the most successful, but this rush to be the dominant leader in AI is pushing them to create these wonderful videos that can't be replicated in real life. Right? Meta did that with their whole Meta did it. Google's done it.

These big companies can't wait to look awesome, but their actual product is not yet ready. It's not up to snuff, it hasn't cooked. Stick it in the oven, buy some time. And in the meantime, why don't you? Like? People are willing to leave something OK for something great if it's great enough and easy enough to use. So I would encourage these leaders, since they regularly listen to this program, I would encourage them. I would encourage them just take a frickin' breath, man. Like, settle down, do it right. It's not like they released iPhones and you couldn't make a call on them. They worked. When you got it. The first time you got it, it worked. And when they show you a video of how the iPhone worked, it did the thing in real life. Right, that's why we had it Like do you remember what was it? It was one of their presentations and they got the screen of death on there. Like it happens, it happens.

Well and to your point with this, and if you remember back, but when the iPhone came out, it wasn't the first smartphone to market. There were already smartphones on the market that did everything that iPhone did and more. And Android. People will still remind you to this day that Android is usually, from a feature perspective, ahead of where the iPhone's released. But why did the iPhone succeed? Because it just worked, and it worked well. It was intuitive, it was seamless. They weren't first to market, but they were the first to really make it available and accessible to the masses to adopt without having to be super technical.

That's right, and they built a platform. I mean, apple has always been a fairly closed off platform and that's why it feels a little bit like Star Trek I always talk about. Always. I often talk about sort of that Star Trek feel Like you just have this one system and that's it Like why VHS and beta and CD and MP4, like what are you talking about? It's just this one thing and that's how it is on. Star Trek and Apple was that it was a full ecosystem and it didn't break. I mean sometimes, but it wasn't complicated. I went with an Android for a while. I thought it was a better phone, it looked nicer, better camera this is probably 2012 or something like that and I hated it because it didn't work with any of my stuff, because I'm Mac all the way and I hated it. It just did not work for me. I had to program this stuff. It's like what do you mean? I have to program this stuff in. I don't like those choices. Yeah.

You look like you're trying to get with something there.

I was going to throw a little pixel love, because I do miss my pixel. I've had a couple of pixel devices. I really enjoyed that ecosystem, but it did not play nice. And I'm talking to you on a MacBook Pro with a Mac Mini sitting next to me and an iPad behind me and it was like, ok, how am I going to get my text messages on my device?

Yeah, and it's not a RODE microphone that you're on.

No, it's just a little handheld Joby-Doo. I used it when I was in Arizona Doing a morning show and it had really good sound quality, so I'm giving it another shot.

I'd like to see you on a morning show with a big steaming hot cup of coffee, absolutely Just welcoming everyone to the day.

It's Eric here on Morning Drive.

And we're taking it off the chopper.

How's the traffic?

look up there, trapper John. It was a very chilly porch in Tucson, arizona, when we recorded one of these that I had to find a quiet spot.

So there you go, hey guys since we're talking about AI.

Can I jump in about? I didn't share this article or anything, but there was a study done recently by MIT that found that, for the most part, ai is still way too expensive to replace humans in most jobs. And look, I read this article. It made a lot of sense. I mean, mit is full of a lot of smart people. They too, just like Harvard, can have an agenda sometimes. So take it with a grain of salt and, to be fair, they were citing jobs like being a teacher or like being a physical therapist, like, yeah, ai is not going to put out a house fire. Can we agree on that? So I don't know about the example, can it?

replace the burners on my grill, because I'm only getting one out of the three firing and I got to do some chicken this evening. Oh my god, yeah, that's called going to AI.

That's called going to Amazon ordering a new grill. So there's an app for that, for sure, there is an app for that. But I'll tell you this whole thing with the jobs I mean, where people are getting hit. It's in that sort of white collar professional right Thought workers, people with brains, and we may have touched on this a couple of weeks ago. I feel like we either talked about it here or we talked about it on my other show. I can't quite remember, but it is a real thing and I've been having these conversations. I probably met with 10 people so far this week and another six to 10 to go through the rest of this week. So I'm talking to people hiring managers, top performers, candidates and bad performers, like all sorts of different people. And what we're noticing in at least the Salesforce ecosystem, as in general with jobs, is comp is down 20%, I'm guessing. If you're making 220 as an architect, it's 180. If you were making 120 as a consultant, you're making 80 to 90 now, right, so there's been a massive adjustment there.

But I think some of this is also going to be about AI and what I've been trying to impress. I'm glad to have just a second here to talk about this because I had a conversation with two people this week. Both are women who are not working, both very competent, 10 plus years each in the ecosystem, super smart, very capable, and neither's worked Well. One of them hasn't worked in six months and the other one four or five months, and when asked what they're doing with their time, it was a little bit all over the map but no one said I'm getting really good at AI, josh, that's what I'm doing to stay competitive. Because, hey, you're 55 or 52 years old or 48 years old and you're going up against a really smart 32-year-old. 32-year-olds can do pretty much everything you can do, except faster. Maybe they don't make the best judgments, they've got less time in the seat, that kind of thing, so fair enough, but you can always remember we've had presidents who are 40 years old. You can be a smart, capable person.

So that's what I'm trying to tell people, especially if you're over 40 years old, if you're not already invested in this stuff, if you're not taking an hour a week to mess around, to mess with plugins, to try stuff out, to teach it something, you are and you're not working. You're doing the wrong thing with your time, clearly the wrong thing. You must get on it, and I can't tell you what a snowball effect this AI is feeling right now, because you referenced your Midwest dream in and I got to see the same presentation at Florida just a month, six weeks later or whatever it was, and it was fantastic. And, yeah, by the next Florida dream in, I'm sure it's all going to be like hey, you don't need to know any of this. These are your three options. Click the button and you're done right.

You're spot on. This is where I think it's actually happening. If you're at a company I'll just take a BA role You're at a company that's big enough to have a BA role and there's one of you, you're probably not going anywhere. Your bosses are probably going to start saying like you need to pick up the pace. If they're out talking to their colleagues somewhere else, like hey, I don't see the same throughput as I see. I hear from so-and-so over there that they have a BA that's using AI. But if you're at a company that has three BIs or five BAs, three BAs or five BAs or 10 BAs, you might look to the left and the right and there might be one or two less. And it's not that you can eliminate the BA, but you can eliminate a lot of the work. And so today I keep saying this it's a Trailhead DX and I'll plug them because I was really impressed with what I saw. One of the sessions I went to was a theater session. It was put on I can't remember the gentleman's name, but he was one of the leaders at Elements Cloud and they built an AI tool for them to use with their clients. That basically does a lot of the BA work and I was intrigued to go because the title of the presentation was BA 73% faster, or 73 times faster with artificial intelligence.

And I think about some of the big enterprise projects I've led, or some of the big enterprise projects I've sold and staffed and had two, three onshore BAs, a couple of offshore BAs doing things like making process diagrams. We have all these interviews. Somebody still has to have the stakeholder interview, somebody still has to talk to the business about how the business process works, and then somebody goes back and makes all those charts. You can dump all of that into this tool and in 30 seconds out come these business process charts. And are they perfect? No, they're not perfect, but are they good enough that you can have one BA go in there and fix stuff?

Yeah, and then, once you run the next workshop where you confirm here's our future state outcome and you document all that on the tool, you press one button and out comes hundreds of user stories. Are they perfect? Yeah, perfect, but are they good enough that one or two BAs can go in there and tweak them and make them right? Absolutely. So now I don't need five BAs on that project. Maybe I need two. Yeah, and that's what I think is, at least in the near term. That's coming faster than I think people see.

Yep, it's definitely coming, and I'll tell you what the next iteration of the BA movement is going to be something along the lines of video interviewing with stakeholders and power users and this sort of thing. Here's the questions. Record it. When you're ready, I'll come back with some follow ups and stuff, or the AI will know. Wait, that wasn't quite clear. How do you need you to show me? And they've got a camera that's recording their screen while they're doing the download with them. I mean it's all coming. Yeah, it is all coming.

I mean already five years ago, before AI, like with some projects that just didn't have the budget to invest heavy in a lot of discovery up front, I would do a lot of discovery with questionnaires. You cover 80% up front with questionnaires and then you go back and have the 20% you can't cover and with a BA and ask the clarifying questions. There's no reason why they couldn't be done with a video AI. I agree, and that's just one role, right? I mean, I could say the same thing with developers, with other roles as well.

What about this? Imagine you've got something, basically the intelligence of, say, rabbit 1 that's coming out soon. Right, you get that, but you don't need the device, you don't need a camera, because it's just a screen capture, and you just say great, we're gonna pick five hours or 10 hours and we're gonna record a thousand of our users operating in these variety of tasks. Now, you'll see everything that's done right, and then let's analyze it. Where are we putting the buttons wrong? I mean, ui, ux is gonna go that way. It's not just like watching a video and seeing how someone's eye movements go and where the cursor goes. This stuff is gonna change a ton of things, ton of things to get ahead of the curve.

Now, for real, Well, and back to your original point. I mean, even if you are employed now, you should be sharpening your acts to make sure that you're familiar because, as Fred said, if you're in a pool of five or 10 or 15 BAs or credit analysts or customer service representatives whatever the case might be at some point technology is going to be able to streamline that and the organization is gonna have the option to say we can either ramp up our service level and over deliver to our customers because the technology gives us the ability to do that and not have to add staff for the foreseeable future, or we're cool doing what we're doing now. We don't need as many people. Let's figure out who the strongest swimmers are and everybody else. Sorry. You get back on the beach, and we've already mentioned LinkedIn and when it is up and operational, but for 20 bucks you can get access to I don't know how many hundreds, if not thousands, of videos inside of LinkedIn Learning that are all taught by experts, and whether it's AI or business process or financial statement analysis or managerial tactics and skills leadership, there's no reason not to be doing that.

The world is evolving at such a pace. Without having a sharp axe, you're gonna be just banging on the side of the tree with a baseball bat and that thing's never gonna come down. It's gonna be really, really hard to make an impact, and especially if you're not currently doing anything now, how do you upskill? There's the Graduate School of Banking working a little plug here, but they do a human resource management school, and I've been asked to be the closing speaker for Friday on the skill sets and kind of what staffing needs to do, how HR managers need to prepare for this generative AI technology driven world and in any industry that's got a little bit of history and heritage behind it. That also means institutional memory and that's not the way we've done it, and so being able to step outside of the box and get your organization thinking about those things, I think is critically important.

Yeah, like doing a writing test for someone right, like I can feel that coming on just in my own company Like the next person I hire. It's like I don't wanna see samples of your writing and your emails or your campaigns or a blog that you've written. I want you've got 30 minutes. I wanna see what you can produce without grammar, without AI, without Grammarly, without the, just because, let's face it, I kind of view.

AI a little bit the way Steve Martin talked about, or was it Steve Martin? It was either Steve Martin or it might have been Robin Williams, who's like cocaine just makes you more of what you are. That was Robin Williams.

That was Robin.

Williams. Okay, but it's that idea right. So if you start smart, if you write smart, if you start smart, if you write smart prompts, if you put in smart information, if you do things the right way, if you're intelligent writer to begin with, then sorry, I've got a little funny thing there. So then think how much better it's gonna be when you process it using DPD or something like that. So testing people's actual competency, not just how well can they school the system.

Yeah, well, and even to take that concept to the next level and I can't remember, fred, if this was touched on when I did my social media marketing world episode but one of the things that the closing keynote Paul Rates are from Marketing AI Institute mentioned when he closed the session on Tuesday, was he is starting now, instead of asking for writing samples. He's giving somebody a problem and he's saying write me a prompt that would address this particular business challenge. Because it's how do you analytically break down this challenge in what is going to be a forever AI age where we're always gonna have these tools because, let's face it, everybody's gonna go? I don't know how to do that. I'm gonna go to chat GPT and figure it out. So who's writing the prompt? And then to your point, josh. It goes back to how good are you at understanding the problem, the process, the output, the structure, the scenario and making sure that you can draft instead of, oh well, draft me a marketing brief. That's not a prompt.

It's towards your paragraph. You have no idea what a marketing brief is, by the way, so how are you gonna know what comes out is the right thing Exactly?

And so it's just rethinking that, that there's all sorts of different things that are shifting, so but yeah, well, I think that makes a lot of sense.

I also think I know, eric. You mentioned earlier today you attended AI for Writers Summit. Yeah, so I feel like I know a lot, I know yeah, go ahead.

I was gonna say this feels like a paid endorsement for the folks at the Marketing AI Institute.

I just gotta ask how come Eric has more hours in the day than everyone else. I don't get it. The rest of the stuff is for a living.

I got AI doing all my work for me. Now this. So the Marketing AI Institute up in Cleveland is an organization I would encourage everybody out there listening to pay attention to. They've got an AI show podcast with Mike and Paul or Paul and Mike, I guess, in order of the org chart there but it was a full afternoon, started at noon, went till about five o'clock talking all about ways to use AI from a writing perspective and started off with you know why do you write?

You write for your audience or you write for yourself, and if you're writing for your audience, you're producing information that educates them, that explains things, that tries to sell stuff, and the threat as it relates to AI is a lot of that is going to ultimately be able to be replaced Because AI can generate that product marketing, promotional content, explanatory information. If you write for yourself, you create for yourself, you create videos, you do podcasts, whatever you're doing, but if you create for yourself, it leans on the human side. You do it to engage, you do it to interact. I love doing these podcasts, not because I want to be on Apple podcasts and have people. I enjoy these conversations with the both of you and the hope is that other people get some good ideas out of the conversation.

But even if this were just 1700 and counting.

Oh, my goodness, we're crushing it. A couple of those are probably the Google executives that are going to take Josh's advice and start doing it.

They told me they love any episode where I can mention cocaine and Nazis in the same episode that they're going to share it with their friends on their own socials. So that's why I did that today, just so you know, nice, I'm sure they love that.

So, but that is how everything basically started and it really got me thinking about the events. You know, you're Fred, you're you're at an event right now. You're in person. These are very unscripted. Yeah, we've got some things we want to talk about, but this is not something where we can jump into hey Jen, or fire up an 11 labs and have it do this conversation. I have no idea Josh is going to mention Nazis or cocaine or any of that stuff, and nobody has any idea what Josh is going to say yeah, exactly, but but that gets to that second point of why do you create?

And that is where I think the value certainly they say that was the value when I, when you know a lot of the overwhelming themes, but that's where the value is going to be created, as humans is carbon based life forms that exist on this marble of ours called Earth, is, you know, all the stuff that AI can create needs to be that tool associated with helping us to that point.

But the in person events and activities and all that other stuff, the why are you creating the human side of it that that was a really big overriding theme and all of that. And they walk through a bunch of the tools that are out there. The Institute walked through their actual process of how do we do research, preparing for a podcast, how do we do the podcast, how do we post, edit, how do we slice and dice and how do we turn that into content such as a blog and a newsletter, and then how do we distribute that and build visibility. And I sometimes refer to that process as like the Thanksgiving turkey. You know, you bake the turkey, you bring it out of Thanksgiving, everybody nibbles on it. It's the podcast. It's the YouTube video, but how do you turn that turkey into turkey soup and pot pie and turkey turnovers and it lives?

on if you've never made them. Turkey tamales are phenomenal turkey tamales yeah.

But you take the podcast, you take your primary element and they and they revealed their process of how they do it with descript and Jasper and perplexity and man it was, it was just. It was awesome to see.

So I'll propose, man. I literally my last meeting of the day, which was at four o'clock this afternoon, was with a firm pitching me to do all of that stuff for the Salesforce career show podcast. So I'll let you, fred, know how that goes and whether it's even affordable or makes sense, but it looked pretty interesting. A lot of legwork.

Yeah, it is. Well, here's the thing, right, like we all have like. Obviously, you guys are on this show now, but Josh, you've got a show. Eric is not exactly a show, but you've got the link to Manker that you've talked about making post content, for it sounds like we all, we all should have attended this thing today. Eric's the only one that made time to go. So if any of our listeners I know a lot of our listeners work in in marketing and content creation, it banks and other institutions, like is there a replay link? I'm happy to put it up on the show notes if there is, or how.

Yeah, I'll get the. I'll get the link. There's the. The session was available for free. You could attend it at no cost. It was sponsored by Jasper AI, but there is an option if you want to buy the actual recordings. It's only $99. And I'll get the link and we can put it in the show notes and I'm sure they'd appreciate the love. So highly recommend it. Really good sessions Use a really cool platform. There was interactivity and chat going on the entire time, so the audience was engaging with one another. It just so really really good. They had over 80 different countries represented and 4500 registrants. It was it was ginormous.

That's awesome man A lot of fun, yeah, yeah it was really cool, well, phenomenal, gentlemen, I think this might be a first that we read out of these talk about.

Oh no, we're just a good time to pause. We can keep going the three I was going to say.

I just looked at the clock and there's probably several other items. I will tease this for a future episode. I do have, in addition to the R one, which we are all actually waiting, the arrival of that orange little magical device that hopefully will not ghost us and we'll get our $199 worth. I did plunk down some additional money on another AI gadget, so I might maybe text you and send you a little teaser, but we can maybe leave that for the audience to keep coming back.

So, unfortunately, it's not really scheduled to deliver until August of later this year, so I'm rolling the dice significantly.

By that time, rabbit's going to be. You know, dad who?

knows.

It'll be displaced by something else. I love it and I'm going to pride you guys a little bit on the air. I would love to do a video session, the three of us unboxing our rabbits at the same time and kind of going through like what, what is it like to set it up and use it? That might be an interesting, an interesting forward. Special, special edition.

I'd love to do that Now. I accidentally put my mom's address in there, so I can't tell you exactly when I'm trying to get them to change the address before delivery. So far they've been non responsive. So big thumbs down from customer support over at Rabbit for now. Let's see if that changes. But I might be two or three days behind you guys on getting my delivery.

They have been very quiet on customer support. That seems to be the trend they're. I don't know if it's stealth mode or if they're just heads down trying to get these rabbits done, but I've sent a couple of messages and some DMs on Twitter, which, by the way, social media marketing world. I didn't really hear one person on stage willingly refer to it as X. Everybody said screw it, it's always been Twitter and it's always going to be Twitter. I don't care what anybody says.

So yeah yeah, well, let's, let's hope. Rabbits busy just boxing up all those units, and so I think they said what leader this month? Right?

Yep, that's what I'm hoping. I'm excited to see how you guys use it, especially you, fred. I want you to say, like, can it get to the point like today? I booked up my hotel for Dreamforce today, right, yeah, what could I be like? Hey, I'm going to Dreamforce, make sure that you schedule me tickets and I need this much of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And here's my bank account. Bye and see what. Just see what happens. You know, I'm kind of excited for that.

I'd love that. I'd love to see that I've kind of figured out my first test and I've actually done it. I got here yesterday. Obviously, you know, dad does everything, so I'm not running a car. But also sometimes they don't want to just like walk everywhere I'm going. So you know it's a habit. I pull up lift and I'll pull up Uber and I'm looking back and forth Like I'd like to spill the rabbit. I need a ride right, and I've hooked up my Uber, I've hooked up my lift, Now you get the car. You know that I, like you, know this level of service of car and this is no pocket, exactly, cold water, exactly.

And then, and then, like you know, I just have to, you know, say, okay, your car is coming and, oh, this time it's a lift and next time it's an Uber. That, because you know, I spent a lot of time flipping between the apps. Look, oh well, this one says it's coming in seven minutes, but it's 20% more than this one. You know, I'm like you know, I don't want to deal with that, right, like that's. That's my use case. If you can solve that, it's worth the 200 bucks I got time for that.

All right, gentlemen.

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Any any last plugs anybody wants to make before we wrap up.

Look, I'll just share. On the 13th, on the Salesforce career show, we have a terrific guest who's going to be joining us. She's going to be just talking about Salesforce flows and not the technical side of things. But how can you gain experience? How should you be articulating your knowledge and your experience? How do you express the depth of your experience on your resumes or on your LinkedIn profile, that kind of thing? So we're looking forward to that and, with luck, fred might even make it to this show next Wednesday. I'm not sure he's been doing a lot of travel, but I hope he can make it. It is.

I'm actually home next week and it's on my calendar, so I will be excited to be there, that's right, and a month after that we have Fred, and another guest are going to be joining us to talk about all things FinServe and Salesforce so I'm really looking forward to that too.

That should be awesome, Eric. Any points?

Yeah, March is pretty nuts for me. We're doing the Graduate School Banking's Digital Banking School, so every Tuesday and Thursday we've got almost 30 banks with multiple bankers within the organization going through three hours every morning on all things digital banking, transformation, evolution whichever buzzword you want to put in there but that's been really good. We've got our second session tomorrow, on Thursday, when this episode drops. If you are interested in joining me for our linked banker happy hour live audio chat over on LinkedIn assuming it is up and operational that takes place on Thursday, the 14th. Those are always the second Thursdays of the month at 5pm Eastern time.

And then for our closed community on the link banker, we've got the one and only Jill Castile, the president and CEO from Citizens Bank of Edmund, who's been influential woman banker, fintech leader, community banker of the year. They just launched a new bank called Roger that's dedicated to serving the needs of the military. She hooked up that's probably a bad way of saying it. She joined forces with Mark Cuban when PPP and all the assistance was needed for small businesses. So she is an amazing, amazing person and a CEO that's not afraid to get out there and represent herself and her brand on social media, and I'm really excited for that. So if you're interested and you are a banker and want to learn how to be part of that cool conversation, hit me up and join our linked banker community of mentor and mastermind Maestro's. So there you go.

That'll be awesome. I'm a big fan of Joe. I love following around LinkedIn, had the pleasure of talking to her once. She is full of insight and I'm sure this could be a great conversation.

She called out Jeff Bezos on Twitter one time when they made an announcement years ago that they were going to partner with Chase for some checking account initiatives, and gave her personal cell phone and Twitter and said hey, Jeff Bezos, maybe you should consider partnering with a community bank that really cares about their customers. Call me, let's talk. It said how many bank CEOs are throwing their Twitter, throwing their cell phone number out on Twitter, and I've yet to have another bank raise their hand to say that their CEO would do that. So she's going to be awesome and I'm really looking forward to that conversation.

Phenomenal. Well, gentlemen, thank you and until next time. We'll chat then.

See you. Bye, everybody, bye, bye.

Well, everyone, we hope you enjoyed episode 24 of Banking on Disruption. Don't forget you can find show notes and a full transcript of the show on our website, bankingondisruption.com. New episodes drop every other Thursday, so we'll see you in two weeks and in the meantime, don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram at at Banking on Disruption. Until next time, this is Fred Cadena, wishing you success in your digital pursuits.