Sue Kurta on Cheesemaking, Changing Careers, and Embracing Life's Passions

Rabiah welcomes Sue Kurta, owner and cheesemaker at Boss Mouse Cheese, to this episode of 'More Than Work'. Sue shares her intriguing journey from working in the music industry, transitioning to a successful administrative career, and eventually finding her passion for cheesemaking. The episode delves into Sue's life on her beautiful, old farm in Kingsley, Michigan, her various pets, and her thoughts on finding joy outside of traditional career paths. Sue discusses the challenges and rewards of turning a hobby into a livelihood, shares the inspiration behind her unique business name, and expresses her admiration for historical cheesemakers. With humor and optimism, Sue offers insightful advice on following one's passions, the importance of self-awareness, and appreciating life's gifts.

00:00 Introduction to More Than Work

00:34 Meet Sue Kurta: Owner and Cheesemaker

01:10 Life on the Farm

03:51 From Music Industry to Cheesemaking

08:16 The Journey to Becoming a Full-Time Cheesemaker

11:12 The Joy and Challenges of Cheesemaking

20:15 The Story Behind Boss Mouse Cheese

24:32 Cheese Making Inspirations

24:52 Challenges in the Cheese Industry

25:27 Pursuing Cheese Education

26:02 Gender Dynamics in Cheese Making

27:15 Perseverance and Passion

28:29 The Fun of Cheese Contests

32:45 Local and Online Cheese Sales

34:54 The Fun Five Questions

42:12 Inspirations and Final Thoughts

46:08 Closing Remarks and Credits

Note from Host:

This episode is painfully overdue, by several months. I won’t get into it but there has been a lot going on. And, as I mention in the episode, sometimes we hear a message at the right time. When I resumed editing and heard Sue talk, I was eagerly listening again and absorbing again. 

Two things to note:

1. At the end of 2024, Sue closed Boss Mouse Cheese but as she posts on Instagram still teaches cheesemaking classes on her farm and she can still be reached via Instagram.
2. This episode was recorded before the 2024 election and we both had hope in our voices. I know my voice has changed but I still have a little bit of hope. It is important to know when it was recorded though because, well, you’ll hear. I don’t know about Sue but my answer to who I admire would include what she said that day.

I met Sue in London and a comedy and writing event. She isn’t a comedian. She makes cheese. I’m cheesy. We got along and it was a joy to get to speak with her. Enjoy the joy and the podcast will be back with another chat soon.

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Find Sue

Website: https://bossmousecheese.com/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bossmousecheese/ 

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More than Work Social Media: @morethanworkpod (Facebook, Instagram) and @rabiahcomedy (TikTok)

Please review and follow anywhere you get podcasts. Thank you for listening. Have feedback? Email morethanworkpod(at)gmail.com!

Rabiah Coon (Host): This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding

you that your self worth is made up of more than your job title.

Each week, I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform stand up comedy, write, and of course, podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go!

Hey, welcome back to More Than Work this week, everybody.

So my guest is Sue Kurta.

She's the owner and cheese maker at Boss Mouse Cheese.

We met at a comedy festival actually, but that she was at with her friend.

And of course she was talking about what she does.

And of course, having a podcast, you have to mention it within the first

five minutes of meeting somebody.

So, we ended up meeting and we're here now.

So Sue, thanks so much for being on More Than Work.

I'm really flattered to be here.

Thank you for wanting to talk about cheese and more than work.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah, of course.

And so where am I talking to you from today?

So I live on a beautiful, old, slightly haunted farm in Kingsley,

Michigan, which is halfway between the Grand Traverse Bay region of Traverse

City, Michigan, and Cadillac, Michigan.

Michiganders call it Northwest Lower Michigan.

That's what our region of Michigan is called, is Northwest Lower

Michigan, so that's where my farm is.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Nice.

Nice.

So how, I guess, how big of a farm is it and what are you farming there?

When I bought the farm, it was, it had 36 acres, which is a lot.

I sold off the bottom 25 acres, which was just woods.

I had problems with, illegal hunting back there, which isn't very nice.

So I now have 11 acres, which is comprised of just beautiful, um,

conifer forest beautiful, big red pines.

And I just leave it.

I never touch it.

And then my big Victorian sort of slightly spooky house.

And then a really big out barn, a big barn, old fashioned barn, it's post

and beam inside, and then a small barn that is my cheese, my cheese plant.

So, it's a, it's a Victorian house, and then a big barn, and a little barn.

And then some beautiful woods, I have a little orchard, and, I, I

built this, I want to tell everybody there's lots of places like this

and they're not even that expensive.

You just have to be willing to move to the country and make it your own.

But there are lots of old farmettes and farms all over the world.

And um, you can live on one too.

Rabiah Coon (Host): That's awesome.

It sounds, I mean, yeah, it sounds beautiful and sounds like a nice at

least nice place to take a break or for you, I mean, to do a lot of hard

work, but, and then I know you have a puppy and you have some animals.

So just before we get into everything, like let's just do your inventory,

So I have a eight month old puppy.

Um, his name is Ziggy and he is chaos and a beautiful little guy, but wow,

puppies are a lot, but we love him.

I have two cats, Chep and Nina.

I have three rabbits, Alice, Sparkle and Sparkle.

I have a enormous potbellied pig named Marshmallow.

She does have her own Instagram account at Marshmallow the pig (@MarshmallowthePig).

That's my animal inventory.

And then I had, I had this summer, I had a bear visitor pass through the farm.

There are bears in the woods and I had a big old black bear a few months

ago, which was really great to see.

If I hadn't looked up, I wouldn't have seen her.

You know, I, I know she's there, but I actually saw her walk through the farm.

So yeah, I live kind of, the farm's sort of in the woods.

This is very Northern Michigan's largely woods.

So I live right at the woods.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Awesome.

That's so cool.

So you have all the animals in the farm and then you have the cheesemaking.

First of all, you weren't always a cheesemaker.

Maybe if you can talk a little bit about kind of what you did and what got you to

go from, well, just, yeah, what got you into it basically from where you were.

have had a couple of careers in my life.

Cheesemaking is my third career.

When I was a young person, uh, I always think we put so much pressure on young

people to say, What do you want to do?

And where do you want to go to school?

What do you want to be?

How do you know when you're 18, you know?

And when I was 18, I only cared about, like, punk rock music and fashion.

So I ended up working in the music industry for about 10 years

at labels, a recording studio, an artist management company.

I love, I super, super love music and rock and roll.

I still do.

And so I worked in that for a while, but I kind of outgrew it.

The rock and roll music business is, is pretty kind of gross in a lot of ways.

And I was getting older and losing my taste for it.

And so I switched into being a secretary.

And I really honed my skills at being a really good secretary and

ended up taking that, to New York city and assisting super, super

senior, bankers and consultants.

And like, you know, I find, excellent administrative support

work is quite valuable and quite necessary for the flow of business.

So I always felt like that job, I still like that work.

So I was doing that, but along the way.

Okay.

I really think it's important for everyone to explore having hobbies.

And so, gosh, I was a fitness teacher at a period in my life.

And I love animals.

I'm a vegetarian for 35 years.

So I'm a big animal advocate and lover, and I love to cook and I love to travel.

And I want everyone in the world just to enrich their lives and get out

there and you know, explore life and eat it up and make it what you want.

And I've always done that.

And then cheese making was, I never, never thought from the bottom of my heart

that that was going to be my livelihood.

It was just one of my hobbies.

I took a wine and cheese making class, or wine and cheese tasting

class, in New York where I live.

I lived in New York in the 80s and then again in the 00s, like

from, uh, 99 to 2010 there.

So two stints in New York and I took this wine and cheese

class with my good friend Amy.

And I thought like, huh, cheese.

I love cooking.

Maybe I can try making cheese at home.

It started as simple as that.

I took a class and then the more I got into, I started making some

cheeses at home, which everyone can do like yogurt or cottage cheese

or simple things you can do in your kitchen sink, but I really liked it.

And I, I, the more I learned about it, I getting into it.

And so living in the U S the artisan cheese scenes, if you will

tend to, we have very strict laws.

around milk and raw milk and pasteurization and milk laws are

very strict in the U. S. where they're much more generous in

the U. K. They are not here.

So you have to follow your state's milk laws.

And so the, , the states with the generous milk, milk laws, like where you can

go into a store and buy unpasteurized milk or pasteurized milk tend to be

the East coast, like the really liberal states, kind of like America, right?

Like on the East coast, there was a cheese scene and here I was living in New York.

So I would, I started going up on the weekends, like taking like

beginner cheese making up in Vermont.

And intermediate cheese making in upstate New York.

I would go away and really explore cheese making at a

little more of an advanced level.

And the more I was spending time on farms, the more I was like, huh, you

know, I really like being on farms.

And is this, I was also really aware that I was just away from my life.

I was really, I'm, I tried to be really self aware.

I want everyone to be self aware.

And I know here I was, in a very high pressure job in New York

City, which is pretty intense.

And then I'd go away.

I'm like, wow, I'm milking goats and I'm in the country and they have a farm

and, oh, this, I'm going to live here.

It's like when you're on vacation and you're like, I'm going to move here.

I'm going to move to Hawaii.

I'm going to move, you know, it's not reality.

You're just away from your life.

And I was really aware that that might've been what was happening.

So I thought, how do I figure this out?

That, you know, I really think I like living on farms, but I also think

I might just be away from my life.

So I thought, I want to do a longer test of what I think I'm feeling here.

So I found an apprenticeship on a farm in rural Maine, which

is not unlike rural Michigan.

And I took a leave of absence from my job.

My boss was totally agreeable to it, a great boss.

And, I went up and spent about six weeks.

At a organic goat farm, the people were traveling and needed a farm sitter.

So I had to hand milk goats, watch their farm by myself, way out in the country.

And it was a real epiphany for me.

It sealed what I thought was happening, which was I really

did want to live on a farm.

It wasn't just a weekend fancy, you know, away from New York.

I really fell in love with the lifestyle and got to live it and work it and

hurt myself and be out there by myself.

And it's scary and all of it.

And it was a giant lightning bolt of this is what I wanna do.

A few years later, I left New York, still only a hobby, cheesemaker.

I didn't, this wasn't my job yet.

This was more than work.

This is the whole point of your podcast.

And found this old farm.

I was living in New York and I had a buyer's agent looking for farms,

and I was like, oh, that's the place.

Like online, i, I saw it and I knew it.

And I bought it.

So I've lived here about 15 years now.

When I moved here, the downside was when you move to a rural

place, there are no jobs.

Just know that.

And I sure wish I had, I thought, who wouldn't hire me?

Here I am from New York with this big fat resume.

Everybody wouldn't hire me.

Nobody would hire me.

Small towns can be not very welcoming to outsiders.

Even though I'm from Michigan, I was not from here and they let you know it.

They do not like, uh, they're not very welcoming to outsiders and in their

defense, they see a lot of people that don't put a root in the community.

They want a second home to look at the water and, and, and I understand it.

I see both sides now that I live here, but couldn't find a job.

Uh, the cheese thing wasn't even happening.

I took some embarrassing jobs because I couldn't find an actual job up

here, but finally got a job, still was doing cheesemaking on the side, but in

Michigan, you can't be a cheesemaker.

You have to get a full dairy license.

And I'm like, but I Alright, I'll get a dairy license.

So I was working, but on the side of this little cheese barn, just with the

intention of making cheese at the Traverse City Farmer's Market on Saturdays.

That certainly would not be enough money to support you.

But I, that's all I wanted from it.

I wasn't trying to be a cheese maker full time, but as it goes

with do what you love and the money follows, I started my cheese company.

Two years in, I was making more money at that than my job.

So I quit my job and then really ramped up my cheesemaking and it's 12 years

later and I'm still a cheesemaker.

So absolutely never saw that coming.

It just happened.

And I'm very proud.

Um, it's intense work.

It's a lot of work.

To those of you that want to be self employed, just know, it's great.

It's also about twice as many hours as you would work at a regular job.

And you're wearing a lot of hats.

It's not for everyone.

But that's how I ended up here.

That's the story.

Rabiah Coon (Host): So that's, yeah, that's awesome.

And there's so much there because I think first of all, I, I agree with

like the points you've made about what, you wish for people and I think

because you know how important it is to have a hobby and to have something

you're passionate about outside of work.

One thing I'm curious about, because I don't get to ask this question very

often, is changing from it being a hobby to being your livelihood, did your

relationship with your hobby change?

Like, and for example, people know I do comedy.

I have loved it and then I've been like kind of resentful of it a little

bit and now I love it again but it hasn't become my livelihood yet but

I just know over time like a hobby that kind of you're trying to grow in

can be a little bit hard so for you with cheese making like how's your

relationship with it changed if it has?

Um, it has, that's a great question.

Quitting your day job, which I actually don't recommend,

uh, until it's like a seesaw.

I always have never understood as somebody who worked in, in the music business and

who did quit her day job when people are, I don't, I think people need to get with

the program if they're like, I can't work.

I just have to write poetry.

I can't have a job.

I just have to do comedy.

Good luck with that, because if you're doing that, someone is paying your

bills or you are financially able to fuck around and not have to pay bills.

So I've always been like, I've known a lot of musicians, a lot in my life

that are like, I can't have a job.

Well, well, lucky you.

I've always said, I don't think your day job has to fill up your soul.

I don't think your day job has to be your passion at all.

I, as an adult you need to pay your bills.

You need to not soak off somebody else.

You can't be married to someone who's like, I'm an artist and they are doing all

the work and you're sitting on your ass, not getting up to 11,, doing your art.

Really?

You know what, they're going to resent you for that.

And they should, because you can't be so self important or

think you're unable to work.

What a privilege, you know, to work and pay your bills.

And if you, if it so happens that's your hobby... I didn't, I didn't do

cheesemaking to be a famous cheesemaker.

I don't give a fuck if I'm a famous cheesemaker.

I don't care.

I like to do it.

I like to do it.

And everybody should do their hobbies and their side thing because they like it.

Can't tell you how many musicians when I was in the music industry, I knew a

lot of guys and bands is how I put it.

And you know, they wanted?

They wanted to be famous really bad, really bad.

And I always say, beware of the want of fame.

Good luck with that because that will, it's probably not going to happen.

And you should still do it because it's fun as hell and funny and

community built, you're around funny people and it's a blast.

And that's why you should do it.

If you want to be famous, what happens is when you don't get famous,

you start to blame everybody else.

I had bad manager.

They didn't promote me.

But what the heck?

Do your stuff you love because it's fun and funny and it enriches you.

And then you might, you know, I used to do fitness.

I was a great business teacher.

I I'm older now.

I don't want to do it.

I want everyone to fill up their lives with fun stuff.

It makes you an interesting person.

If you go to your job and you come home and you look at your phone and you

watch TV, that you are, you're boring.

You are boring.

I'm sorry.

That's a boring life because life is a big, fun amusement park and you can

make it what you want and it makes you, enrich yourself and go out and

dive in and don't be lazy and put your stupid phone down and go out.

That's why I like that you do comedy.

Comedy is hard and it's, you gotta be smart to be funny.

So it's a great group of people.

Um, I do not resent cheese making.

I think if anything, I take it very seriously because it's my money.

It's my money, right?

It's, I used to have a job, but now it's just cheese and that

is scary to quit your day job.

When I worked at American Express, American Express's CEO for many

years, I think he's retired now, was a gentleman named Ken Chennault.

He was the first black CEO of a Fortune 50 in history.

So really great CEO to work under.

He used to say, have a plan B, have a plan C, have a plan D. You, one of you,

and I had to say that to myself, what if I quit my day job and cheese tanks?

I don't make enough money.

Then what?

Have a plan B, have a plan C. You have to look around the corner, don't

have expectations, um, you can't make it, it's just, and I want to

also say this is just what I think and what I did, there's no right and

wrong, it's just how I approach it.

I think people are too self righteous, I'm full of shit, you know what I

mean, like this is just what I did.

It's not right or wrong, it's just what I did myself and how it worked

for me, but people need to make their own choices or whatever.

Small business and working for yourself is really hard, It's not for everyone.

I think everyone thinks I'll be good at it, but it's most, most

small business fails as we know.

So you have to work more.

No, I'm not sick of cheese.

It's a, it's a, it's like winemaking.

It's complicated.

It's so interesting.

I get tired of it.

I love it.

I'll forever love it, but it's, it's hard.

I, the days when I don't have to do it, I'm like, ah, but like,

I think I, no matter what I did for a job, I'd feel a relief.

I'm not going to work that day, having a day off, Also, being self employed,

you don't really ever have a day off.

You gotta be available and your clients and the quality of the cheese.

That's another thing.

Cheese can really be terrible or it's not even your fault.

Sometimes it's like the batch comes out weird the milk was weird.

Um, yeah.

But, but I'm really glad I did it.

I'm, it takes courage to kind of

go like, I'm going to quit my day job and try this thing, but you just

have to have a plan B if it doesn't work out and it's no one's fault.

It's not even your fault.

It's just the game.

It's not, you know, I don't really care.

Like I make fine cheese.

I'm not, I don't want, I've never entered my cheese in contests.

I don't give a shit about that.

I don't, it doesn't do the best cheese or whatever.

I'm not competitive.

No, I don't care if my cheese is the best or whatever at all.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

Well, cheese is something that brings a lot of people joy, I think.

I mean, there's true enjoyment, like people who really like, I know

people who either, you know, I know you're a vegetarian, but "I'm vegan

except for cheese", you know, or they'll, or people just look forward

to it or, you know, there are wine and cheese parties or there's a

cheese tray at a party, whatever.

Trader Joe's has "A Real Crowd Cheeser".

It's one of my favorite names of any product.

I might as well be selling chocolate.

There's people like crazy around cheese.

I meet these customers and it's sort of it's a very delightful

food and it's emotional.

And as a cheesemaker, it's a very historic food as well.

I knew another cheesemaker and we used to talk about why does cheese

make everybody not makes people nuts.

They act crazy.

They'll come to the farmer's market like, Oh my God, this is cheese.

Oh my God.

I love cheese.

Like I really love cheese.

And they act crazy.

I love cheese too.

And my cheese maker friend and I tried to unpack that.

And so we had here's our non scientific but cheese maker experience.

It's a very ancient food, it's a real, it's as old as mankind, people

have been making cheese out of this very perishable product, right?

It's highly nutritious.

This is getting a little more medical, but because it's a fermented food, you

know how they've studied gut biome and like fermented things kind of to your

brain and, we think there's something there about it having a sort of a property

that makes us feel really good if it's made, you know, properly made cheese.

It's an old school slow food and it's obviously delicious, but there's a

mystique to cheese or something, right?

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, it's cool.

It's just, it is funny though, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, like cheese samples, like if you're giving samples, people will go

after that, you know, they'll be on it

Um, I use, I actually don't sample anymore.

I used to, but you end up, people are just hungry.

So they, they have no intention of buying cheese and I find buy it anyway.

And I've been making cheese long enough that people know what my

cheese is, but, um, and then little kids grubby stick in their hands.

I, I just stopped after, well, in COVID, they stopped letting us send my food and

I just never went back to it after that.

Cause people don't want to buy cheese when they eat cheese.

, I'm forever, my real gratitude and wonder is at the cheese makers of

history because we make it all with, you know, pH meters and temperature

gauges and jacket and kettles.

And, you know, we have this modern equipment that historically

they're making it over a fire in a, , I don't know, in a pot.

And then, there's no refrigeration.

It's just, I don't know how they, I mean, I know how they figured it out,

but man, the cheesemakers of history, I really bow down to them cause that's so

complicated, let alone poisoning yourself, you know, I'm sure that happened too.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

Yeah.

no, that's extraordinary.

Well, so the name Boss Mouse Cheese, so how did the name Boss Mouse come about?

I get asked that so much.

The name Boss Mouse Cheese, when you start a business you have to name your company.

And I love humor.

Um, and Boss Mouse doesn't mean too much.

It's, it's funny to me.

The words sound fun together.

It's kind of a mighty little thing.

Mice and cheese are obvious.

That's all there is to it.

I get asked that all the time and I'm like, don't look into it.

It's not a deep meaning.

And furthermore, in the cheese world, most, most companies and most all

cheese companies have these kind of pastoral, like, like golden acres.

You know this company up here called Idol Farms and they have

all these really pretty farmy names and that's so not my style.

I like humor and like kind of punk rock stuff so Boss Mouse sounded really bold.

My father, um, is 90 and he hates the name when I told him I was calling it

that he sat me down and he's like Sue you can't name your company, it's so stupid.

Don't call it that and I'm like dad.

Sorry.

That's the name.

It's a great name and mostly people have loved it.

People like it, but I do get asked about it a lot, and there's nothing behind it.

It's just stupid and funny.

There's, that's it.

It's not, it doesn't mean anything.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Well, speaking of I don't know if stupid and funny is the

right words for this, but your business cards are I think they're awesome.

Like, that's I mean, I held on to it.

I had to take it out of my backpack because it was kind of crazy, but your

business cards look like a piece of cheese, like have holes in it and stuff.

I thought that was awesome.

I don't know.

A business card can be a great opportunity to express yourself,

and for the listeners, my card is a standard business card size, but we

did a letterpress, uh, It's quite a, uh, a firm little yellow card.

And we we strategically poked, uh, holes in like a piece of Swiss

cheese, but it's nicely printed.

It's not like we didn't do it with a hole punch.

It's done.

So it looks like a little piece of Swiss cheese.

It's bright yellow.

It's pretty, it makes quite an impact.

Rabiah Coon (Host): It's great.

It's because, I mean, I remembered you like just because of the card, if

anything, you know, well, plus just meeting you were very nice, but like

also, yeah, this card is awesome.

it's, good to have humor and have fun with, with the name of the business.

And I agree.

There's so many places like that are cheese makers, I guess.

And even over here, like you'll just see the name of the farm or something.

I was in South Africa earlier in the year and just you talking made me remember

that and went, my friend and I went on a wine tour, but we went to this one winery

that had was a goat farm and this cheese was amazing there, like extraordinary.

And I mean, I

I like goat cheese Some people don't like it.

I really loved it, but it just made me think about like, that was a really

extraordinary cheese experience for me.

Can you think of like, I mean, you went to that wine and cheese pairing, but is there

a cheese that is like kind of, um, like

goals cheese for you.

There is, there's a lot.

And you know, in the cheese world, like that story you just told me, Rabiah, I've

I've heard many, many stories over the years of people saying I was in, um, Italy

and I was at this monastery and they had this, it's almost like a lover to me.

And they'll, and they'll describe this cheese experience they had.

The end, the end line is, do you make something like that?

You know?

And I tell them, no one does when you have a delicious food memory.

And we all have.

I think all people have a bag full of really impactful food memories.

I'll tell you my answer, uh, is, is gonna, is gonna circle back to you.

So, I love the UK.

My mom is from Aberdeen.

and I spent a lot of time there.

And my favorite cheese in the whole world is cheddar cheese.

And so England is the motherland that is the cheese of England.

There are probably hundreds of varieties of cheddar.

As a cheesemaker, especially as a small cheesemaker, I feel that

cheddar is kind of hard to make.

Cheddaring is a, is actually a cheese making process.

One the Isle of Mull in Scotland, there's a, there's a creamery there

and they make a cheddar cheese called Isle of Mull, which you can

get widely available in the UK.

And it is my favorite cheese in the whole world.

And it's made on the Isle of Mull.

I actually wrote a fan letter to them.

When I was a new cheese maker, I thought, Oh my God, I want to go to isle of

Mull and learn from them because it's, it's just cheese perfection for me.

There's a lot of perfect cheeses.

, I always say to people, I'm a real new school, kind of American style

cheesemaker in that I love new traditions and cheese making is very old.

There's something I don't like.

I think a good question to ask anybody about their work is what

don't you like about your industry.

Something I don't like about cheese making and cheese makers broadly

speaking, they're a bunch of snobs.

And I don't think cheese is snobby at all.

I think it's fun and I'm super American in my style.

Like I love like rub, rub, you know, rum and cocoa powder all over the

thing and put it under, age it in oil.

And you can just do all kinds of things with cheese, like cooking.

It's just endless.

And, um, I like new school stuff, cheese making.

It's just how, again, just how I do it.

It's not right or wrong, but so Isle of Mull cheddar is my very favorite, but

when I was new, I wanted to, I thought I want to go study with that cheese

maker and watch him, there's not really formal cheese making education to be had.

There's not a cheese making program.

I think it's one of my bucket list things.

Actually, the state of Wisconsin, a really big cheese making state here.

Although it's mostly commercial cheese over there.

The University of Wisconsin has a master cheese maker certificate.

And one of the prerequisites is you have to have been a professional cheesemaker

for 10 years before you can even get, and only two women have done it.

I think 60 men have, and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta go over there and do it.

There's more women now, like, everything, but it's still primarily

male cheesemakers, especially in Europe.

So, um, that's my long answerIsle of Mull cheddare, and cheddar in general.

The cheddars of England, I just, I

love cheddar cheese, British cheddar cheese.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Awesome.

think of it, um, like in a household, the dynamic has been that

women should cook and men don't.

Unless it's grilling, but then in like the restaurant industry and

stuff, it is very male dominated.

I just thought that was an interesting thing how that

happened as a career versus as a in the home.

I don't know.

That's probably another discussion, but I, it reminds me when

I left New York City, uh, I was about to move and my, my dear boss uh, took

me out to dinner Cipriani, a really, really fancy Italian restaurant.

They got in trouble because they only would hire male waiters because and

maybe they think it's the very upper echelon of dining that's a man's world

or whatever I let that's a whole nother

thing,

but

I'm just going to say it's another hierarchy, right?

Like, the highest of anything ends up, you know, not being a very

everyone's not at that table, right?

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

So, um, and again, in your life, whatever you're doing,

if you're trying comedy or you're, you went on a bunch of go sees for

modeling or an acting part and you didn't get it and, uh, whatever the

thing is, you're trying to get a new job and no one's calling you back.

Keep going.

Keep going.

I'm not a religious person, but I do think that it all works out.

It will all work out for all of us.

But you gotta stay out there and don't let it discourage you.

Don't think, boy, when I moved to Michigan, I told you, they

weren't very welcoming to me.

Even though I'm like, hey, I'm from Michigan.

Yeah, yeah, you're not from up north.

So you can get out of here.

And man, I almost left.

Because I'm like, I can't get in this game.

I have so much to offer, but no one seems to want to give me a chance.

Keep going.

Do what you're doing because you love to do it because that's you can't money can't

buy authenticity and you can't fake it and people see it and they will get behind it.

There is some self empowerment to getting up and power through, it sounds

corny, kind of like, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, like, to bump yourself up,

but it works, there's no alternative.

Rabiah Coon (Host): I agree.

Like sometimes my goal is just to have fun because my goal

is just to have fun tonight.

Because especially when you do these contests, I mean, you said you

don't put your cheese in contests.

Like there are all these at my level at this, you know, open micer level,

there's all these contests and there's pressure to like win something so

you can prove that you're funny when it doesn't really do that anyway.

It just proves you won that contest and there could be a lot of factors about it.

I mean, unless it's like BBC or something, but, um, so it's kind of

an interesting thing and then it does take the fun out of it because now

you have like your colleagues, your peers that you're competing against

when, um, If you're just doing a show together, you're not competing.

You want everyone to do well.

If you're, if there's five of you on a bill, you want all of you to do well

I went to a comedy thing last night and Traverse City

is trying to have a comedy scene.

You know, it's, it's small, it's a smallish town, um,

but it was a really fun show.

And there was a, there was a trans person up in one of the, they call them teams.

And it was just like what you described.

They

had four teams.

And I thought of the courage it took for that person to get a room full

of strangers and, and, and do comedy.

And they were funny, you know?

Um, and that's the spirit of just doing anything.

Do it.

Cause you love to do it really.

And if you're mad at it or you're, I mean, like guys in bands, I used to

know that weren't famous enough yet.

Yeah.

Our manager said they were so bitter and I'm like, man, what

are you doing it for then?

Who cares if you're good, do it because you like to do it.

And that takes courage.

And not worrying about what people think of you, which is like

the great human anchor, right?

What are people going to think?

And when you can start, start cutting away at that on your

ankle, man, does it free you?

And it's kind of why we're here.

Like, nobody's thinking, remember, nobody's thinking about you that much.

Rabiah Coon (Host): yeah.

Well, That's very true.

What's that beautiful Dr. Seuss quote?

Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

It's the best Dr. Seuss quote.

It's about being yourself.

Rabiah Coon (Host): No, it is.

No, it's true I mean at some point like you you have to know yourself, you know?

And what's gonna make you happy and not worry about other people.

it's one of the great gifts of getting older.

People in our culture, the world over, particularly Western culture, we,

we get so down on, you know, aging.

And I I think aging is a gift.

It's so great to get older.

It's you're so much wiser.

And I find just more compassionate and maybe not for everyone,

but I quite enjoy aging.

I I like myself better.

And I want everyone to not be like, Oh my God, you know, I'm whatever age.

Um, it's such a. A lot of people don't live to be older.

A lot of people die, die all the time.

So, if you get to be any age, you should open your eyes today, remember gratitude,

because, um, beside you is somebody that didn't get to, and life is, well, I don't

know what the hell life is, what is this?

I don't know what the universe is, what we're doing here, but I know

you can have fun, and hear your own drummer, and make it what you want,

and change your mind, and all of that.

I'm a super big believer in that.

It's not corny, but I mean

everything I'm saying.

Rabiah Coon (Host): No, no, I mean it is a privilege because you're right

people not everyone does Live to be older and you know, we all know,

people in our lives who died, you know, children die or teenagers die or

20 year olds.

And it's always tragic.

So if you got the extra time.

So if you have some wrinkles, like for me, I don't really care.

You know, I just go good.

This is now.

I know how I look when I'm old.

As girls, like, our, you know, the world sadly has cast our main value as

our beauty and sex appeal, and that's just

Rabiah Coon (Host): I know.

So maddening and so sad and and you have to get to a point as a as

a woman, you know of saying just a giant fuck that and I and love yourself so much

if If if you don't please people that are looking at you big so fucking want you to

be just like that's why I like you know middle age and women just get to that

point where it's like, you know what?

Love yourself so much that you understand that aging is a gift

and it just doesn't matter.

It doesn't really matter what you look like.

Try to start for that goal because it's the truth.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah it and it is it's a difficult one.

So I think just one question I have about

your business.

You're the that you're in.

Um, Is you do so you sell locally in

michigan, but then you do have some One product online, right?

So can you talk a little bit about what that is and it's used?

Cause I saw it and I was like, I don't even know

what

So I make my product is pasteurized cow's milk cheese So in the

cheese world the kind of milk you're using, you know, you had that beautiful

goat cheese experience If there's a lot of sheep and kind of aged sheep and

goat milk cheese and I work in cow's milk cheese my favorite so cheddars

are primarily made you can make You You can make any cheese from any milk.

Um, but cheddars are a few varieties of pasteurized cow's milk aged cheeses, but

my father and I, so I like smoked cheese.

I love smoked cheddar, smoked Swiss, smoked cheese, smoked mozzarella.

Um, so my dad and I, and cheese makers do, we built a cold smoker.

And those are kind of uncommon.

You don't really need a cold smoker because most food can take heat,

but Lox cold smokers, smoke is lox when you have smoked salmon.

are cold smoked, tasting smoked salmon, and those are cold smoked,

but otherwise food doesn't need cold smoking because it can take the heat.

But cheesemakers build cold smokers.

My first one, we made it in an aluminum garbage can.

It was just a homemade smoker because I wanted to smoke cheese.

But now, because I had a cold smoker years ago, we threw a stick of

butter in there to smoke butter.

And as a vegetarian, I do not eat bacon fat, but boy does it taste like bacon fat.

Because when you think about it, it's a fat much like bacon when

we smoke it naturally, So we threw a stick of butter in there.

It was so delicious.

I thought I have a dairy license.

I'm going to make this stuff and the rest is history.

We started to produce it and now it's probably my biggest seller at Boss Mouse.

I make good cheese, but that's smoked butter.

We've been on the Rachel Ray cooking show, TV show Chopped.

We mail order it.

I've mail ordered it to every state in the union, including

tastes like a little block of bacon fat, is what it tastes like.

We make it in vegan as well.

So I do mail order that.

And uh, that was just a fluke, but it's

Rabiah Coon (Host): One thing I, I have is a list of questions called the fun five.

I ask every guest these questions, but before that I always ask like, do you

have any advice or mantra you wanna share?

Now you've

shared quite a bit about your ideas on like what makes a full life, but

do you have anything you wanna, like leave people with at this point?

Love yourself, above all.

have faith in people look on the bright side.

Be an optimist over

a pessimist.

Get out there and eat up life, because you're able to.

A lot of people aren't able to for a number of reasons and it's such

a gift It's just a huge beautiful gift make it what you want.

You can change your mind.

Don't stay in something.

If you hate your job, quit.

If you hate your relationship, quit.

Be true.

It's hard.

Life is unfair Don't don't let that kill your beautiful golden heart.

So it's really corny, but I mean every word of that.

Rabiah Coon (Host): It's not though.

I mean, Someone, someone, will hear that who needs to hear it?

For sure.

Even myself right now.

So that was,

I hope so.

I love love people love people

Okay.

Bye.

Rabiah Coon (Host): So next we have the fun five.

So these are supposed to be fun.

So the first one is what's the

oldest t shirt you have and still wear?

Uh when I was living and uh working up on cheese farms

on the east coast, I bought a used REO Speedwagon tour shirt from the early

70s That is so been so worn It was at a second hand shop and the kid that

sold it to me claimed it was her dad's, who was a roadie for REO, which is?

You

I believed her.

Pretty random.

It's such an old shirt.

You can almost see through it.

It's like a it's like a wet piece of kleenex.

It's just a and I don't wear it because it's so delicate It's such a prize to me.

I love logo tees.

I love rock t shirts, and I think they look good on everyone.

And that one is a real prize, but it's so delicate, but it's got kind of

glitter on it and it's got like that old REO thing of the woman with the

guns and it's just a weird old thing.

So that's my kind of like my prize old t shirt

Rabiah Coon (Host): Awesome.

That's cool.

And, um, yeah, you wanted to know a little, we talked before and

a little bit about my answers, but i, mine's, uh,

want you to answer too.

yeah.

I want you to answer too.

Rabiah Coon (Host): yeah.

So it's an old Phil Collins shirt, I think.

I mean, I've kind of, now I feel like I've lied on a previous one, but that's fine.

One of my shirts the one that's the most disaster is this Phil Collins t shirt

from his both sides of the world tour.

like it's got no sleeves.

Now the collars ripped, whatever.

I don't know.

It's crazy.

Sure.

I mean, I really shouldn't wear it at all because I barely wear it.

Um, and then

I have a camp into the opera t shirt that's really old, but it

had a glow in the dark mask on it.

That still glows in the dark.

So it's pretty crazy, but it's like 30 years old or more, probably more,

I mean, it's probably 35,

I have a because I was in the music industry I have a lot of rock

and roll t shirts from my music business days And one of the weirdest ones I have

like you have the glow in the dark phantom shirt

So when you two released that record lemon They need a scratch and sniff

lemon t shirt and I've got it.

I think, I haven't scratched it for a while, but I bet if you

scratch it, it smells like lemon.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

So we can wear it together.

We can,

Rabiah Coon (Host): If it still does, like,

I'll let you know.

Rabiah Coon (Host): if it still smells like lemon, you have to wonder like how

right?

What chemical did I just breathe in?

how some, uh, how I did a line of, uh, the lemon t shirt from the 90s.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

This one, um, you know, it felt during COVID felt like Groundhog's Day,

certainly like in the film, but now it's just a question I still like.

So, um, if every day was really Groundhog's Day, what song

would you have your alarm clock set to play every morning?

I love this question because I think there's about a

zillion answers because I love music.

And the winning answer for me I changed my mind a few times.

It is Rock and Roll All Night by KISS because the opening chords of that song

Rabiah Coon (Host): Nice.

That little piece of that song I could listen to that on repeat.

It's like the soundtrack in my brain.

I love that song and I can't remember if it's on Kiss Alive, where they recorded

it at Cobo Hall in Detroit, and I have friends that were at that show, and so

that's my answer, is I love the band Kiss

anyway, but, uh, Rock and Roll All Night by Kiss.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Awesome.

I, before, I've had different answers different times.

I think what I would do now if I had to pick one, I probably would just

pick the Curb Your Enthusiasm theme.

It's like Frolic or something because it's so funny to me.

Like, I wake up laughing, which would be good.

Um, but I have picked other songs before, like, usually Elton John

or something because I love Elton John, but, I think, yeah, the vibe

would be Curb Your Enthusiasm.

So the next one, coffee or tea or neither?

All.

I love coffee.

I start my day every day with homemade coffee.

I'm not a coffee shop patron, but I make coffee at home, and

I love proper black English tea, and I'm a big herbal tea drinker.

I don't, uh, I've put down alcohol, uh, I used to drink a little too much

alcohol in the past, So I don't drink much anymore, but I love herb tea at

night, so I drink all of the above.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Cool.

All right.

Good.

Yeah.

And I,

I

drink coffee mostly,

but I'll have tea sometimes.

So can you think of something that makes you like either makes you laugh so hard

you cry like before, or can you think of something that in the past has made you

laugh so hard you cried or something that when you think of it just cracks you up?

Yes, and it's, uh, it's, it's a little, um, a little

blue, but it's, I'm gonna tell you.

On Instagram, there is a guy named Jack Vale, V A L E, and he goes around,

he's an American dude, and he's got a little handheld fart noisemaker.

And his entire feed is he goes around Walmart in America, and he

looks at products, but he makes these fake sounds to alarm other

shoppers, and somehow he films it.

I don't know if he's got somebody with him who's got a hidden camera

or what, but it is so funny.

I cry laughing, it's so funny to me, because the reaction, some people laugh,

most people are super alarmed, or they get really mad at him, and think that it's

so insulting, and he handles it beautifully, that's it, as he makes

fart noises in Walmart, so that's what I'm gonna say, I cry laughing, I can't

even, I, I can't ever, it never doesn't, It's It's so funny, so funny to me.

Rabiah Coon (Host): I'll look that up.

I'll look that up.

That's funny.

I remember my brother when we were kids.

So me and my sister shared a room and my brother was next door and his bed

was against the wall that we shared and just one time he like farted against

the wall really loud and it was amazing.

Oh my gosh.

I'm 10 years old and I love arts and I think they're hilarious.

So that's my juvenile answer.

Yeah,

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

And he did this like, woo,

you know?

There's a, I have a, double answer to, there's a

podcast called last podcast on the left, it's out of Los Angeles.

It does some true crime, but they also just make fun of current events.

And there's a comedian named Henry Zebrowski.

Who's so hilarious and talented to me.

It, he makes me just die laughing.

I love that podcast, but particularly Henry Zebrowski is just

a diamond and I think he's so funny, so a lot of stuff.

I laugh a lot at a lot of stuff.

I think things are pretty hilarious.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Awesome.

Well, those were good.

I think those were great answers.

They made me laugh.

So, um, and then the last thing, last question, who inspires you right now?

Kamala Harris, I love her.

So Kamala Harris and I are the same age and I can't imagine being a woman

of color who is so accomplished, so impressive, so cool, being up against

that motherfucker, I'm sorry, Donald Trump and his white nazi cronies.

I just, I admire her so much and her courage and her professionalism.

And I just think she's a star.

And I can't wait for her to be president.

High time America, we catch up with the rest of the world and have a girl, uh,

in a position of authority.

So, yay.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah, I like how her husband, Doug Emhoff calls her a

joyful warrior and that whole idea.

And I

I really like admired that I admire their, I mean, what I know about the

relationship, I very much admire too.

I've definitely have not found a, a person, you know, my person, but I just

look at them and I see like this amazing life and respect and the sacrifice.

Now he's going to make for her and, and that he is making and like.

So many women have sacrificed and and I think it's amazing.

I

think they're amazing.

And the joyful warrior spirit, I really like.

That idea.

love her and admire her.

Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah, I'll just piggyback on that one for

this time, because I mean, she's

Rabiah, I want to thank you because I think even the whole

nature of your podcast is so selfless.

You want to, it's being interested in others, is getting not, and not on

social media, but actually being curious about other people is a real gift.

And I thank you.

I'm super flattered you even remembered me or asked me, but I liked that the

whole, and you've done a hundred of these,

I think, right?

Looks like didn't, how many of these?

So, that's a labor of true love and, curiosity about other people and um, I

admire you for dedicating and putting your personal work and time into a

thing just to talk to other people about their lives, because people

are so interesting, aren't they?

Like, people are so, just talk to everybody and hear their story,

um, that I like that that's what you did with your free time, is

did something to bring others to others, you know, so good for you.

Star on your head.

Rabiah Coon (Host): No, thank you so much.

That's really kind.

And I mean, Yeah.

I just think that, like, it is important.

I think when we share our stories and get the opportunity to, it

encourages other people to do that.

And if it encourages them to do the thing or just share

their story or talk.

Um, about things I think it's important.

So yeah, and I appreciate like you and

you sharing with me and then other guests doing that.

And, um, I've had some different, you know, things have gone meandered like off

the subjects and whatever, but I think it's all just been important, you know?

Yeah, that's cool.

So as far as just where people can find you and what you want them to look

up, like if you want people to follow you on social or go to your website...

what can you just give them the direction on what to do?

I'm not, I'm not on a ton of social media.

There is a boss mouse cheese Instagram account.

And that's where I don't, I'm somewhat private.

I don't, I don't, I'm not on Facebook or Tik TOK or I don't

even have Tik TOK on my phone.

I don't, I don't, I never started and I don't really want to.

Same with Facebook.

I never, there's a Facebook page, but I haven't updated it for, I

don't even have a password anymore.

I don't even, I don't, I, I consciously chose not to do a lot of social media.

I don't know how good for it for us.

It is.

I'm not a young person.

I know they're more hooked into tech.

Boss Mouse Cheese, there's a website.

You can write me through there.

You can contact me there and then the Boss Mouse Cheese Instagram.

Um, and that's it.

That's all I'm out there on, so yeah.

Rabiah Coon (Host): I did find you.

So it's fine.

So that's, that's

good.

And it's a boundary, so you can respect that for sure.

All right.

Well, Sue, thanks so much for being on More than Work.

It was an absolute joy to talk to you.

So thank you.

Thank you too, Rabiah.. Talk soon.

You can learn more about the guest and what was

talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A. Rob Metey does all the

design, for which I am so grateful.

You can find him online by searching for Searching Rob, M-E-T-K-E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work Pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok.

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.