Kevin Dieny: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Close the Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:02

I'm your host, Kevin Dieny and today we're gonna be talking about finding

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:06

the ROI of marketing and practical ways to be able to prove that marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:11

is effective for your business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:13

With us today, I have a special guest, someone that I met at a conference,

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:17

someone that I met and we just hit it off at one of those networking activities.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:20

And his name is Glenn Schmelzle.

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And Glenn is someone whose focus is always about helping businesses, B2B

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:30

organizations get their marketing to the point where it's profitable, his agency

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:35

marketing what's new leverages digital channels to generate leads with technology

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:39

to track funnels in dollars and cents.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:41

Cause it's really difficult to track it, but we're gonna be talking about

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that his funnel reboot podcast, which I had the honor being on

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not too long ago, uh, has served.

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As an educational platform where over a hundred fellow plus marketers have

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shared their digital marketing ideas.

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Glenn has a BA from the university of Toronto and an MBA from Clarkson

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:00

university and lives with his wife and three sons in Ottawa, Canada.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:04

So welcome, Glenn.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:05

Thank you so much for having me on Kevin.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:07

So, we're gonna dive right in.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:09

We're talking about, you know, finding the ROI marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:12

We're talking about the practical ways to measure marketing and be able to

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prove its effectiveness to the business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:18

Just to kick it off.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:19

Why should a business take the measurement of marketing seriously?

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:24

Why does that impact the success of marketing?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:27

Yeah, I'm happy to kick that one on.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:29

And I'm speaking both as a business owner, as well as a.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:34

Guy who wears a marketing hat.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:36

So for people who run a business, it doesn't matter if you're

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:40

talking HR, marketing, how you get your coffee supplies.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:46

A business is built around having to make a profit.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:50

And so there is no reason why marketing should.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:54

Let itself be held to a different standard than the rest of

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:01:57

a company is being held to.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:00

We're gonna get into some of the quirks that make it not easy to do, but I want

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:07

us to remember that end of the day, we're trying to make something profitable.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:12

That means that it has future potential for growth, that there

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:16

is perhaps an opportunity to reinvest and make more of this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:21

Marketing is something that we are doing in the here and now

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:25

that if done properly, should be able to move us in that direction.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:30

So I say, let marketing be held to measurement standards.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:02:35

Don't just let marketing happen on its own without any accountability.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:39

Yeah, I think accountability is really important and also the reason

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:44

I like accountability is if you think about it, marketing is taking the, some

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:48

of the business' cash or taking some of the business' capital and it's using it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:53

It's putting it to a use.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:54

Now business is like, well, I could be using that to hire more people.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:58

I could be taking that and creating a new product or doing anything with the money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:02

So at the end of the day, it's like, well, why should the

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:06

business decide that marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:10

Powerful and proper avenue for spending money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:14

And why should it put it into marketing?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:16

Yeah, absolutely.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:18

We all to also have to remember that marketing is one of those fields.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:21

It's not like, you know, ultra sonography or some other field where.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:25

All of the work happens behind the scenes.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:28

We walk through a world full of marketing.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:30

We are, you know, both, sometimes the people behind it, but we're always

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:35

the people in front of it, right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:37

That it is reaching.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:38

So.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:40

I think we have to contend with some things that can

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:43

distort our vision with this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:45

And, you know, you were talking about how a business needs to take money away

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:51

from profits and put it into marketing, or they can put it into other things.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:55

Why should they have to put it into marketing?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:03:58

Well, if you have anything more than something that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:03

I can click on Amazon and immediately order, or it's within arms reach

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:09

when I'm at the grocery store.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:11

If you have something like that, then you are having to reach someone at a time.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:18

That's a little different from the time that they're deciding to buy it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:23

And.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:24

That's good because actually you now have some breathing space to influence

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:29

their decision of who they're gonna buy from, but here's the challenge you

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:33

have to part with those dollars now.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:36

And you have to wait until the revenue comes back and that dollar is recouped.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:42

So that lag time, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:44

That's sort of the function.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:45

That's sort of a.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:45

Oh, it's a killer.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:04:46

It's a, it's a byproduct of it's it's excruciatingly long.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:51

It's sort of like, uh, well, we, you know, we need to buy this

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:54

part for our product or we need to have.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:56

A piece of our service requires us to have, you know, steps in it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:00

That's just part of the steps.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:01

The way I look at it is, okay, there's invested money day one.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:04

At some point, you know, it, hopefully it gets delivered.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:08

Sometimes you invest money in things and they just never come to fruition.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:11

They never even get to the market.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:12

So let's look at it from the other side too, which is so

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:16

why we decided to spend money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:18

Let's say a business is like, well, I get marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:20

I get what it's trying to do.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:21

I get that when we're spending money, it's gonna have a lag time toward the impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:25

The problem is for a lot of businesses, which is where like we're really wanting

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:29

to narrow for this episode is why is it so difficult to measure marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:05:35

and measure the success of marketing as it aligns with the business' goals?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:05:39

It's difficult because you're normally involving others, right?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:05:42

So if you are a manager or perhaps an owner of a business, you're probably not

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:05:49

doing all of the creative or all of the.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:05:54

Add platform implementation or the emails, you know, that fall into, uh, the realm

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:00

of marketing, but you are the person who has to judge its effectiveness.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:07

And you're a pretty good judge because you have gotten this far offensively

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:12

because you've made good judgements in the past on similar kinds of decisions.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:18

So it requires some letting go.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:22

And I think that that's, that has a lot to do with the difficulty.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:26

It's not something that you can necessarily do.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:27

If, if you are, for example, a person who's moved from, let's

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:32

say you were a good technician or consultant, but now you have a small

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:39

army of people who do that job.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:43

They are good at understanding how, how long it takes to do a certain job.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:47

And.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:49

You know, multiply that by a rate.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:50

They're probably good at understanding, you know, how much revenue that

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:55

job's gonna be worth, but it's a different thing altogether.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:06:58

When you try to swing over to the cost side and you say, all right, I need

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:02

to now gauge how cost beneficial it's going to be to get in front of people.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:10

And yet you're gonna have to tie it back to that revenue at some point.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:13

So I think that that's jogging back and forth between those two.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:16

That's a really big part of why it is difficult.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:19

And then I'll slide my own industry.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:21

We have made it unbelievably jargon filled and technically complex, uh,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:07:29

and that doesn't do anyone any favors.

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:32

So I had a guest on one time, say you have to look

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:36

at marketing like an investment.

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:38

Yes, it does all investments have the time lag also all investments have risk, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:43

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:43

So what is it that, you know, a business in terms of, well, they're not

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:51

confident about marketing, let's say because maybe marketing hasn't worked

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:56

before, maybe they don't think it will work for their type of business, their

Kevin Dieny: 00:07:58

type of industry, whatever it is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:00

So, to that I would normally say, well, what is success for you?

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:06

What does success for marketing look like?

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:08

Because it's possible that marketing, in some ways doesn't

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:12

always lift revenue per se.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:14

It doesn't always lift sales per se.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:16

Sometimes targeted marketing is done for other purposes.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:18

So it's like if marketing was to be successful for your business,

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:22

what would that look like?

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:23

What does that have to look like?

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:25

And so, you know, for you, you run your agency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:28

So.

Kevin Dieny: 00:08:30

Are usually the ways that we look at marketing being successful.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:35

Yeah, so glad you asked.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:37

Uh, and it is different by companies in a conversation.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:41

I had a long time ago that kind of showed me the foolishness of thinking

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:46

that marketing should just, uh, serve, you know, all my needs all at once.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:51

I was sitting down with a person and they were just beginning, uh,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:56

for a maybe dozen person company.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:08:58

And they.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:00

Kind of carved out some marketing budget and I said, well,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:02

what do you wanna do with it?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:03

And they said, I just wanna make some noise.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:07

Frankly, that was, uh, the conversation didn't last much longer after that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:11

The truth is that you may see big companies doing that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:16

And this is part of where I said, even though you're walking through a

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:19

world where you see marketing, please try not to take some of what you

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:24

see out there and imagine that it is appropriate for your own business's goal.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:30

It's probably not.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:31

You're probably better to start with a blank sheet of paper.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:34

And you, you would ask things like.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:37

Do I have an existing customer base that I feel I could make more revenue out of.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:46

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:47

If just, if the same people engage with me, either buying more things

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:51

or there's a higher dollar value per.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:54

Order.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:09:56

This is a way that you would absolutely want a telemarketer and

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:00

say, I want that to be my objective.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:05

At least for now another one could be brand new business.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:10

Another one could be, I don't even want to go for end clients.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:14

I want to reach partners who will become a channel.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:21

And resell or refer people my way.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:27

Each of those is marketing objectives, but they stem from

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:30

what you want your business to do.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:33

And a marketer worth their salt should be able to make that translation.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:39

But I'm gonna complete the thought by saying there's one thing in

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:42

this bargain that you've gotta be ready to, you know, come back

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:45

towards you with when that marketer.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:49

Does what you asked for that business objective, they're going

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:53

to probably show you some metrics.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:10:57

Those metrics don't look immediately like your business goals, but I'm

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:01

gonna ask you to let that high blood pressure that you're feeling surge up.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:05

Just let it pass and hear them out because what's likely if a good marketing KPI

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:15

can be found that serves as a lever.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:18

That by focusing on that marketing KPI, the byproduct is that your business'

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:25

key performance indicator and what you had as the original objective

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:30

that that's gonna move, but it's not a direct, it's only as an indirect and

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:36

marketing is what brings the cause to it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:11:40

And the effect is found on your bottom line.

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:43

Right, something like you are describing there to me is like, I

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:47

look at it like there's top line, like maybe, uh, lagging metrics and leading

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:52

metrics where there are data points that are telling us if the marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:57

is effective within the channel.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:00

And then there's metrics that are telling us if the marketing is effective at

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:03

generating and aligning with business goals, which might be revenue, sales,

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:06

brand awareness, um, things like that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:09

And.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:10

To me, the more limited your budget is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:14

And I I've faced some very limited budgets.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:16

The more I feel like I have to get closer to those metrics that are

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:21

describing how they're affecting sales or revenues or profits or gross profits.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:26

And the reason is is that if I start there and I'm like, okay, I can prove.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:32

Give me a dollar and it's equating a dollar in a certain amount of time

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:36

period and paying it back and how much that's gonna drive business, you know,

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:39

continually then it's like, okay, I can get more budget, but at some point you're

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:44

gonna need to fill the middle and the top of the funnel in a marketing funnel way.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:47

And a lot of doing those things, isn't gonna directly lead to sales.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:52

There's too far of a distance.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:54

Helping people get educated.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:56

Let's say on like the types of cars will help them figure out eventually what car

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:00

they want to buy, but it might be very difficult to be like, oh yeah, the guy

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:05

we showed like a brochure two, three years ago, ended up buying the car.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:09

Like, there's, there's certain things.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:11

So in marketing, there's extremely accurate data points.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:15

I'd say they're probably closer to the end, probably closer

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:17

to the sale a lot of times.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:19

And then there's stuff in the middle and the top.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:20

That's just so hard.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:22

So a lot of times I've heard, man, measuring marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:24

just seems so inaccurate.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:26

So how do you deal with that, Glenn?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:29

You break it down and, and you did a beautiful job just there of,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:33

you know, describing it by funnel stage.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:36

If there are people who.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:39

Maybe already have awareness of you, maybe there's even, you know, out of home brand

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:46

touchpoints that cause them to see and know about, but maybe your website is not

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:52

structured for that activation, right?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:13:56

Maybe there's something that you could be doing to at the time

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:01

when they are ready, which we call bottom a funnel, then you have a.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:08

Very intuitive means of letting them take that action.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:14

This is something that a marketer, you know, back to what we were saying

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:18

about a marketing metric, their KPI could be how well are we converting

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:26

people from one stage to another?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:30

And it's maybe, you know, as you say, it could be very close to the

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:35

point where a cash register ring.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:38

And yet the nature of something inbound is that you are reaching

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:44

people when they're interested and their interest is going to work.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:49

Just like the way that we always make decisions.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:52

I'm thinking about something it's in the future.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:14:55

There are times where I just want to know enough to satisfy my

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:00

current haziness about it, but that doesn't mean that I'm ready to buy.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:06

And so the marketer has to reverse engineer that and say, what are

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:11

the things that could help me just get them to consider me.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:17

Maybe put me in the short list or make some association.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:20

So they say, yeah, when I have that problem, that's who I'm going to,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:25

this is different from the activation, you know, or decision making at one.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:30

And as you said at the very top there's awareness so a marketer has to make

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:36

decisions and budget allocations that try to serve all of those needs.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:43

And I'm not gonna disagree with you.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:46

It has some difficulties in it, but there are ways to at least get a directional

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:15:52

sense of whether or not it's working.

Kevin Dieny: 00:15:55

Yeah, so I think like in terms of like the business leader, I

Kevin Dieny: 00:15:59

have seen ads come across in front of me who are targeting me that say, Hey.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:07

Look, we got a 15 X ROI on this ad for this company.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:13

We can do the same for you, or Hey, check out our email click rate.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:18

It's over 50%.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:20

We could do that for you.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:22

And I've been like, wow, well, how did they do that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:25

Everything you wanna compare everything, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:27

Wow.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:27

They're doing so well.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:28

Yeah, they're doing so many things, but just like you're saying, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:31

Like if I send an email.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:33

To current people in pipeline who are really close to buying that says like, you

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:39

know, Hey, would you like 20% off more?

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:42

And you're already at the finish line.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:43

They might be, they might be interested in opening that email.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:46

So I could say, Hey, look at this email, got like a hundred percent open rate

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:50

and like a hundred percent click rate.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:52

And so it could be very misleading.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:53

So.

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:54

If you're the business owner, a business leader out there, marketer

Kevin Dieny: 00:16:57

of any type you're seeing these ads, you're seeing the marketing done by

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:02

agencies, by businesses, by freelancers.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:04

That's going out there and saying business owners, look what we can do.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:08

And so.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:09

What we're talking about with these metrics is like having a really good

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:13

understanding in their business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:16

What kind of marketing is going out and what expectations to have, cuz if you,

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:20

like you said, inbound and outbound, if you email people cold, outbound,

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:23

you're not expecting the greatest open rate or the most engaged rate or

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:26

the most connected rate or whatever it is, inbound, it's gotta be higher.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:30

So, all of those things, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:33

Change the expectation of how marketing is performing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:38

So you run the agency, Glen.

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:40

So how do you help business owners or how do, how do business owners get around?

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:45

What are expected, proper successes, ways of what, what are the most

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:50

important types of things they should be looking at in their business?

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:53

They can put the blinders on and be like, okay, that's, that's, everything

Kevin Dieny: 00:17:57

I'm seeing is not necessarily reality or wouldn't be reality for my business.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:00

I don't wanna sound like I'm hedging it, but let, let me approach

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:04

the first, how it should be approached.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:08

And then we'll get into the, the dots and bolts of, uh, what should be

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:11

measured, how it should be approached.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:14

Let's remember that you are working in a world full of people and humans don't

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:20

make particularly good lab test subjects.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:23

Anyone in the social sciences.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:25

You know, if we remember back to maybe college courses, we

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:29

are very hard to pin down.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:32

We are not necessarily as predictable as you know, two plus two equals

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:37

four is so we have that difficulty.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:41

And I guess I have to also say that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:43

There are now reasons why data is being either removed from what a marketer

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:49

can see by privacy regulations, or some of the tech giants are obscuring

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:56

it because serves their needs.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:18:59

And so, you know, there, there is less information that we have here and, and

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:03

those are just sober realities, but I don't want someone to lose heart.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:08

You asked about the agency thing.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:11

It starts off with something as woo woo.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:13

As your philosophy and your culture.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:17

So what you don't want to do is you don't want to create a pressure cooker

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:22

environment where sales, but, you know, to include marketing where they feel that

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:29

they just have to make a bell ring, you know, like a lab, subject wood Pavlos

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:36

dogs, because what's gonna happen.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:38

They're gonna do things like.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:40

The landscape is strew with examples of, for example, people who are

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:44

searching for a product and they can go straight to the website.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:48

And it's the sort of thing.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:50

Like they can book an appoint.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:52

So that's the, the action and they could, if they've already thought

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:56

of that company's name, they're just going to Google and typing

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:19:58

it in and Google's just gonna show them in the organic search results.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:02

Yeah.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:03

This is what you're looking for.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:04

Here you go.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:05

And they will a marketer who is feeling pressured and who doesn't

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:09

have the ethical scruples can make a paper click ad with your company's

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:15

brand name and it appears up top.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:19

So.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:20

The person who types that and is just about to go to your website anyway, cause

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:24

they already remember your name is seeing an ad and they click on the ad and then

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:29

they go through and make their, you know, purchase or their appointment to purchase.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:35

The marketer comes away and says, look at me, I've done this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:40

pat on the back for me and the business owner.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:43

If they find out about this, uh, I'm sure aren't none too happy.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:48

So, you know, but really is it entirely the marketer's fault?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:53

They were given this, you have this quota to make you must

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:57

by any and all means possible.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:20:58

Failure is not an option.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:01

and that's what you're gonna get.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:02

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:03

So I, I think we need to clear the air there, Kevin on maybe

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:06

what shouldn't be set instead.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:10

It's going to be a mindset for experimentation and a mindset

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:15

for let's track what we can.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:17

And let's be a little bit scientific about it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:21

If I do these things, it ought to lead to those things, but I may be wrong.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:21:26

So I'm gonna give it a shot.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:29

Yeah, so that's a really important aspect of marketing that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:34

For me has come more as like something that it's come over time that I've

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:39

learned because in the beginning, it, to me, it was like, well, it's all

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:42

about the straight up performance in the here and now, and as quickly as

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:45

possible, which is absolutely what a business has to be able to recover.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:48

You know, it's it's expenses, especially the smaller it is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:51

It's like, my budget is very limited.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:52

Yeah, no doubt.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:54

But I've come to realize like at least 80% of the budget, you know, at max

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:00

is in performance to me and 20% of.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:03

Is sort of like research.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:05

And by that, I mean, when I spend a dollar 80 cents of that is gonna be dedicated

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:11

probably to the performance of that ad.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:12

But in addition, 20 cents is gonna be wasted on learning from the mistake

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:18

on figuring out, oh, there's had the wrong keywords, or this was

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:22

the wrong audience or this, this page there's something off or.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:26

Because a marketer is not really after quantity as much as they are

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:30

after quality, but there's a balance there because if you go too much in

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:35

either direction, you're super high quantity, like you said, the bell

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:39

ringing, getting people to just, you know, get an appointment, but

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:43

then you find out none of them are.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:45

None of them are a fit is a total waste on the other end.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:48

You trust is bad.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:48

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:48

You have one only one person that came in your whole budget pulled just one person.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:53

It may not be able to float the thing, even though it's okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:55

This person's a really good fit.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:58

it's just one person.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:59

So what can we let go of on the quality side to increase the quality

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:03

to me, marketing is always that scale.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:06

So I've got a suggestion for you there, and I'm gonna end up at

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:08

scale, but I wanna absolutely underline what you said about, uh, experimenting.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:13

Let us not forget back to human beings.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:17

You know, those Shamira creatures that, you know, uh, are always doing new

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:22

things and you know, when a new piece of tech shows up there on it, They are

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:27

gravitating or drifting away, depending on your vantage point from platforms,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:33

what we call marketing channels.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:36

So if you thought that Twitter advertising or Facebook, or, you know, name

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:42

your platform, your social platform.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:44

That's just your rock solid.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:46

I'm putting 80 cents of the do the dollar on that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:50

In fact, I'm just gonna put a hundred cents on the dollar on that, because

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:53

it's always going to deliver for me, there's this unending stream of people.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:23:58

What you're gonna find out if you don't parcel away.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:02

A little of that money for experimentation is that human beings

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:05

may drift away and not to get to kind.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:09

Philosophical here, but we have to acknowledge that the data

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:13

that we have is incomplete.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:14

It's a little bit.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:16

Walking through the dark and we have a flashlight turned on

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:19

just a few steps ahead of us.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:21

So what you may not notice while you are so busy walking down that path

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:27

is that many of them are leaving for another platform or there's

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:32

a different kind of a tactic.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:34

And if you don't pay attention to that, if you don't move the flashlight

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:38

around a little bit, Maybe 20% of the time, then you are not gonna notice

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:44

that they've gone elsewhere to learn about solutions to their problems.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:48

The effect of that is that your tried and true workhorse method will no

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:24:55

longer have as much effectiveness and you don't have anything else that

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:25:01

looks like a candidate to replace.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:25:02

So I'll, I'll pause there for a quick second, and then I'll come

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:25:06

to your scale notion so far.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:25:08

So good.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:08

I'm totally on board with that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:10

I was even gonna say it makes sense a lot of times, because a business might be

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:14

like, well, okay, you spent the money, you got the results, but what can you tell me?

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:19

That's a such a great question.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:21

What can you tell me about what you've discovered?

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:24

What have we learned?

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:25

What have we discovered that will help us.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:28

You know, cuz there's sort of like a, not necessarily a forecasting, a trending,

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:32

but there's sort of like, like what you've described there's insights in marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:36

that are signals that are telling you things about the market, telling

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:40

you things about your own business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:42

That may go way beyond just the current marketing campaign.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:44

You've run there's insights in there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:46

And if you have a relationship with the agency or with the marketer in house

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:50

or whoever it's doing your marketing, they should be able to deliver.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:54

a, here's the results of what you've spent, you know, budget in

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:57

and some measurable success out, but also here's what we've learned.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:02

And I think that was, that's something you've mentioned and

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:04

touched on there that I think is really important before you move on.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:09

Yeah, I completely agree.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:11

And if we were, let's say doing everything in a business ourselves, especially

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:17

the sales, uh, this is something that, you know, we would just intuitively do.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:21

We would understand.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:22

We would get some of those insights in those conversations,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:25

marketing, sadly doesn't have as many opportunities like that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:31

Maybe things like chat bot.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:32

Kind of come close.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:34

Maybe analytics kind of tells us, but we have to be on platforms

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:40

that are really unfamiliar.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:42

If anybody is unsure that they are unfamiliar.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:45

Uh, I'll ask you and I want anybody listening to take a moment.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:50

Now we're in middle of 2022.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:52

Please go and get your website or instruct someone to get your

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:55

website on Google analytics four.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:58

And.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:26:59

You need to have it, but I don't want you to be under the illusion

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:03

that if you just put it on there and you open it, these insights are just

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:07

gonna spring out, like, you know, old faithful at, uh, at a national

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:11

park, but what can we do for that?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:14

And here's how I think we can do it and get scale.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:18

If you have, uh, this kind of purchase where there is a customer

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:23

journey and you think that they are.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:26

If you look over several of the last successful sales that you had and you

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:32

come up with a hypothesis that well, gee, every single one of them first

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:37

wanted to kind of know about this broad problem question, and then they want,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:42

they moved kind of into a more narrow.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:45

All right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:46

But I could solve this several ways.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:48

Now.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:49

I have questions on why and how much I would solve it for.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:53

And then they come into, well, why would you.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:27:56

be the right solution out of the ones that are very similar to you.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:00

And then to a decision, if they're going along into things like that or

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:04

whatever it is in your business, the way you can look at scaling it is to work

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:11

with the marketer and to try to come up with cues for those conversations.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:18

But not at an individual level.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:20

These are at a group level.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:22

So this is what for example, might be in a series of drip emails.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:28

This may take the form of maybe a message that a marketer, if they tell you they've

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:33

used retargeting, this might be that retargeting message that is saying you.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:40

Come along and, and try this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:42

These are almost like breadcrumbs that are left at various times

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:46

along the customer journey.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:48

And if the marketing is actually getting traction, these are things that

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:53

should move the person from whatever stage they're at to the next one.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:28:58

But I'm gonna repeat if I have to nauseum, this is done at a group level, we have to,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:29:04

as marketers make this so that it handles.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:29:08

As many conversations and we're going to write it once we're gonna

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:29:13

set it up once and we have to then measure to see whether or not the

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:29:20

customer is picking up the trail.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:22

Yeah, so I would say, I agree with everything there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:27

In fact, I would say if you're a business starting out and you're thinking,

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:31

okay, I want to get marketing tracked.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:35

I wanna have a, I wanna feel more confident about it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:37

I want to have more information about how it's working, what's going

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:42

on, where maybe there's a drop off.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:43

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:43

I think sometimes I've come in and been like, well, here's a drop off.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:47

And the business has been like, If the drop off's there, let's fix it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:51

And then it's not necessarily about fixing marketing budget

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:54

or having that conversation.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:55

It's like, wow.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:56

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:57

Marketing's creating leads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:58

The leads are dropped off because there's some hole, some black holes somewhere in

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:02

the past, in the process for the business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:05

So I usually go, I start like this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:08

So you start at the end, you have a sale.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:10

Cause that's something good happened there and go back.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:13

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:14

How did you get the sale?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:15

You go one step back.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:16

Well, We sold him a contract.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:19

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:19

How did you sell him?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:19

The contract go a step back beyond that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:21

Well, we had to tell 'em about it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:22

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:23

How did you tell 'em about it?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:24

Well, they call, was that a yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:26

Phone conversation?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:27

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:27

You, you just go back, back, back, and then as far as you can, or if you hit a

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:31

point where you're like, you know what.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:32

I don't know exactly how this came in or what happened then for there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:37

It's like, okay, that's the missing tracking point.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:40

Once you can get back to a certain degree now, I'm not saying you're gonna be able

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:43

to go, oh yeah, that's the moment on the couch when the guy decided, you know,

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:47

I don't think it's gonna be like, go back that far, the farther you go back.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:50

No, you know, it's gonna be harder and harder to get gray and gray

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:52

to the point where, you know, you're just making guesses, but

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:55

stop at the point where you're.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:57

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:57

I would say I'm below a confident point for myself of whether

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:03

what really happened here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:04

And is it really important that you need to track this point?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:07

You might just be like, well, look, I got the last eight steps.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:10

That might be a lot and just focus there for now.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:12

But if you have, at some point, you're gonna have the end.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:16

All tracked and measured.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:17

And if you do, you can see how many people are in each successful point

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:21

in that progression to being a sale.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:24

And if you see, okay, the numbers drop off significantly

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:27

between one step and another.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:29

For me as I'm marketing analyst at heart, it's like, okay, that's narrow there

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:34

because if we can get that up, Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:37

the whole pipeline radically changes.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:40

And is to me, is a, is that spending money on ads?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:42

No, that's just, being able to track the process and seeing what's going on

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:47

in the business and narrowing it down.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:48

That's sort of operational work, but marketing is so tied to

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:53

the operations of a business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:54

That's why we're talking about tracking, measuring marketing's effectiveness.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:58

You don't do marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:59

I would say.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:00

Until you're confident you're putting a lead into a process that's properly

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:05

tracked this is my 2 cents there.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:07

Yeah.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:08

You, if you can't go in a room and write it all out.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:11

Yes.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:11

Uh, then you're right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:13

Mar marketing is more back to the guy I talked about.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:16

Let's make some noise so right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:20

Uh, so a caution here, uh, and that is.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:25

Let's say it is all written out and now we're at the point of

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:29

saying, okay, I think that some parts of this would be aided by

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:35

specifically spending money on media.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:38

Right?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:38

So for anybody listing, if you're putting something out, like you put up a webpage,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:43

Google's gonna see it organically.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:44

You didn't have to pay for that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:46

If you're putting it on a social network, anybody who is following your page.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:51

And the algorithm smiles on them.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:53

They'll see it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:54

So we're not talking that we're talking about where you, this is sometimes

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:32:57

called boosting, but you know, I think the more appropriate term is

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:02

that there is targeted advertising.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:05

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:06

So where does it make sense to do that?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:08

And how long does it make sense to do that?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:10

For first thing, I'm going to caution people on is to.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:17

Use the accountants ROI measure as their be all and end all for how this works.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:26

Why?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:27

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:28

Let's be clear.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:29

I'm going back to my own, you know, days when they taught me this, but in

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:33

school, I remember them saying that ROI is it's the difference from your

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:39

revenue after cost has been taken out.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:42

Divided by the cost.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:43

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:44

So revenue minus cost divided by cost, right?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:47

What did I get for what I gave, you know, by taking out, uh, what I gave,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:54

I am only, you know, I'm only looking at what the difference is here and

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:33:57

I'm comparing that difference over my original couple of cautions for that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:01

But the main one I have is this could be used to defend.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:07

Ideas that don't make sense in real life.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:11

What do I mean if I let's take ROI of me as a person and let's

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:17

think of me spending money on food.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:19

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:20

So I could say to myself, I want to have, um, I don't want to have any,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:25

um, outbound cost because that's on the, you know, bottom of that equation.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:30

I don't really want to, uh, you know, I, I wanna venture very little here

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:35

because I want to keep, you know, my calorie count low so I can starve myself.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:39

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:39

But I didn't spend any money on food.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:41

So I kind of gained the formula and by the formula, I'm looking pretty good.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:46

But in reality, my body is now in real trouble.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:52

ROI by its own self is just an efficiency metric.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:56

And I could say, yes, I'm, I'm so efficient.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:34:58

I didn't even have to buy any food, but don't ask me to get up and do

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:02

anything because I I'm basically exhausted just lying on the couch.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:06

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:07

So let's not fall into that trap of saying, I must have

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:12

this kind of a high ROI.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:14

It just means you were efficient at doing nothing.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:16

So what I'd like to think about is instead is effectiveness.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:21

And effectiveness.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:23

This is back to that, you know, lever, you know, Emma is marketing,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:27

actually moving a lever that in some part of that big process, that you've

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:33

operationalized, that we can see a different number, you know, moving and

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:39

it's moving down pipeline towards revenue.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:42

That's a really important point.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:35:44

I wanna, uh, leave with the listener here, yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:47

That's really important because.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:50

You know, in my head there's marketing budget, it's never zero, but in

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:55

some businesses it is, you know, especially a business starting out.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:57

It starts at zero, but it's really also important when it's like, well, okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:02

The spending 5,000 versus spending 50,000, that's a 10, 10 X difference.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:06

There that's a lot.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:07

So what you're getting at is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:09

It's gonna be, let's say a business is spending money on marketing and it

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:12

could think, well, we could just cut that budget slash it and something,

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:15

we have that recuperation we make.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:17

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:17

We make that efficiency look really good.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:19

Um, sometimes the business does have to slash budgets across

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:22

the board or let people go.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:23

It happens because they, they are beholden to shareholders, but.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:28

And they'd need to stay alive.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:29

I mean, a business that dies because it, you know, it pushed out all its budget and

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:33

ads that didn't work is also problematic.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:36

What you're really getting to, which is something that I really like to focus on

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:39

too, is like the health of a business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:41

So a business should have a goal.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:44

We need to grow to this point or this number.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:46

This is what we want to get to, or this is how we wanna grow our company.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:49

You know, we're gonna grow in sales, but we're gonna grow in staff.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:52

We're gonna grow in product.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:53

We're gonna grow in services or whatever it is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:56

And so.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:36:57

Or, or in these specific markets, like, as you say, it's, it's

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:37:01

got something that a, uh, a strategy that the company as a whole is embracing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:06

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:06

And, and achieving that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:09

Does that require growth in something?

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:11

Yes.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:12

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:12

How are we gonna grow it?

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:14

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:14

Well, marketing is probably one way it could grow, but

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:17

other alternatives yes or no.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:19

So marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:21

I think at its best when it can deliver you the information about how marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:25

could work, what you get from using it, it's gonna give you efficiency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:29

It's gonna give you effectiveness.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:31

It's gonna tell you how effective it was.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:33

And you could take that and be like, well, okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:35

If I market in this channel versus that channel, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:39

This is how it's kind of, this is kind of what I might expect.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:42

If I do both.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:43

You know, I might expect, you know, different result too.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:46

And that at the end of the day is the information, businesses need to decide,

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:52

you know, how it's gonna grow, how it wants to grow and what budget to allocate,

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:57

because there's some risk in everything.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:59

So if it decides it's gonna have slash all of marketing, I'd be like, well, what is

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:04

it gonna do to still achieve its growth?

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:06

You know?

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:06

And is the amount budgeted realistic?

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:10

To get and obtain that goal.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:12

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:12

So, yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:14

So anyway.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:15

Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more and yet I see this is

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:20

not something that companies, um, Gets to this epiphany all at once.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:25

Um, it, it takes weeks and months and sometimes years, but there is

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:30

one common pattern that I've seen.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:31

And, and I'm so glad you raised the, the notion of, you know,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:35

how the budget should be looked.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:37

I'm used to seeing that a company goes from that $0 to,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:42

uh, a limited time campaign.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:45

So they're kind of thinking, you know, like the work campaign

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:48

comes from the military, right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:50

So we're gonna go, you, storm that beach.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:53

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:53

But you know, after we've done, you know, taken that one beach,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:38:58

then we're gonna take a rest.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:00

That's an okay stage.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:01

I think in terms of metrics, it would probably be, did we see some

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:06

number, like, I don't know, raw leads.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:10

Go up, did something happen?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:12

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:13

And if it did, you know, maybe that BOS our confidence to get to the next

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:17

stage for me, the next stage is that we are seeing marketing cost return

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:26

or lend some help to closed revenue.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:32

And we see that enough to the point where the company says, this is a regular line.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:37

It.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:38

This is now not a, do we turn it off?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:41

You know, because of the change of seasons, we can see a regular

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:45

stream of people and we expect there to be more like them.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:49

So that's kind of the next one, uh, where I think you spoke about at the end there,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:39:54

it takes a different kind of thinking, uh, to me, instead of thinking about, we put.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:01

This many thousand on our marketing budget, instead it becomes, you're asking

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:08

how healthy was that, you know, marketing applied in the acquiring of one customer.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:16

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:17

Uh, this is, you know, you may wanna start with averages for this, although

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:20

that's probably not going to be granular enough, you know, as you get on, but,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:24

you know, just take and you take an average order and you kind of break down

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:28

the unit economics into, alright, I'm getting this much revenue out of it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:32

And I have a certain amount set aside, my fixed costs.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:36

And then I have my marketing acquisition costs and.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:40

What's left over her profit.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:42

Oh, in this last month, it doesn't look like any was left over.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:46

Okay.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:47

Bummer.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:48

But we've said it's kind of a, now a regular part of our spending.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:40:54

So what can we do to make that acquisition cost on a per customer

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:00

basis effective enough so that we do.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:04

Our target margins.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:06

What is it that we need to do?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:08

That's the kind of inquiry that takes companies to tremendous scale.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:15

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:16

And if you think about it, if a company found that they spend a

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:20

dollar and they get $10 out of it, why wouldn't they be doing it all day?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:24

They wouldn't they would just put it right back in the top.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:27

Exactly.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:27

Right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:28

But I, I don't want people to, you know, cuz people might be

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:31

a little depressed thinking.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:32

All right.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:32

I'm so far away from that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:35

, you're not as many steps as you think, but, but you, and, and even those

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:39

companies that are at the top and, and just plowing it back in, they now have

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:44

like this institutional discipline of measuring things like maniacs.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:49

So you're gonna have to build up that muscle.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:52

At some point along, I would encourage you to do it at the early stages

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:56

cuz you know, you're gonna need it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:41:57

Right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:57

Yeah, so I want to there's one last thing I wanted to get to.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:02

I know, uh, we've been on, uh, there's some time, but you know,

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:05

this is just something I thought was really important and that is

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:08

I, it is my belief that marketing has to be something that's managed.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:12

It's not something you turn on and sort of.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:15

Turn it on and forget type of a situation.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:18

Marketing does have the, even if it's performing well today does have

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:22

the requirement of managing that marketing campaign, effectiveness

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:26

budget, making sure even if it's all set to just do what it's been doing,

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:31

everything has entropy into case.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:33

That's been my experience.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:34

It's, that's shown me to be true across every channel, every marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:38

thing I've ever done, it starts to decay people see the same message

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:41

and they start to ignore it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:42

So.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:43

It leads me to.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:45

Okay, well then that means it needs to be managed.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:48

That needs to be managed at some frequency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:50

If it's, you know, someone from an agency, a freelance, in-house

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:53

a manager, just taking a look at it once a week or once a month.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:56

So some frequency of it has to be on a always recurring basis

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:59

when there's marketing happening, spend going out the door.

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:02

So.

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:04

If that's happening.

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:05

If marketing spend, if you're a business where marketing spend is a regular part of

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:08

your day, regular part of your business, what are the practical tips or practical

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:15

strategies for measuring the effectiveness of marketing that you would have?

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:20

Maybe just like a few tips or anything you'd have for businesses

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:22

who are doing that today?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:24

Definitely, I think the key is to, um, uh, unless I, you know,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:32

reread the same ground that you have, um, an area where open conversations

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:38

can happen and where that marketer who may start to see a tapering off

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:44

of results, be saying to themselves, I wanna do something about this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:48

There has to be enough freedom and admission of.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:43:53

What's not working so that they will say I'm okay to tell the person managing

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:01

me that we have to try something new.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:04

I have to switch it up, uh, or I maybe have to kill a program

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:08

that we worked really hard on.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:09

And that it's it's time beyond that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:15

The, I think the real gems come out of asking.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:21

Within each one of these channels that we're using within each one of

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:25

the different types of headlines and messages that we're giving to our

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:31

prospects, it takes a willingness, particularly by the non marketer to

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:37

listen and probe how well those things are doing, because that's usually an

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:43

early warning sign of a need for a change.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:47

How does that get measured?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:49

The most practical thing that I wanna leave people with is if they are using

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:44:55

any marketing that is happening off of the website, but that is bringing someone

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:00

to the website, then they need to check out something called UTM parameters.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:06

And we can include some information in the show notes on what those

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:10

are and how to build them.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:12

Very simply though, they will.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:16

Quietly ride along with that person as they make their way to your website.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:21

But your analytics will now tell you so much about what

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:26

you were doing to bring them.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:27

Were you talking about something that is seasonal in a post?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:32

Were you talking about something that is a story of, you know, each one of

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:37

the frontline service people that you have and had a human interest angle?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:41

Was it something that.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:43

Raised a new regulation and, you know, had that, you know,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:46

kind of spoke to people's heads.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:48

There are so many of these things.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:50

If you start to track them more than just at the level, that would come

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:45:54

outta the box, by adding these little snippets, you can start to understand

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:02

what is really doing the heavy lifting it'll help you perhaps lighten your load

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:08

and get away from things that aren't.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:11

Working for you, no matter how emotionally attached to you are to the creative,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:16

but more importantly, it's going to give you that sense of I am managing this.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:21

I, I absolutely know.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:23

I've been listening out in the field and the stuff that I'm

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:26

hearing in the last couple of weeks is different than the marketing

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:30

that we designed three months ago.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:32

We need to start plowing that into what we're doing in our marketing.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:46:36

And we need to see if we can detect a change.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:40

Yeah, that's really good.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:41

I think what you're describing is like the feedback, uh, cycle

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:45

for marketing, which is deploy.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:48

See how it went test.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:49

If you can improve and then redeploy or deploy multiple and see how they're doing

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:55

and how they help each other, there, it, it can become a very complicated web of

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:58

attribution and, and also incre mentality of what's going on with marketing and

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:02

its effectiveness, but at its very basic, very basic core, I would say, I

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:07

mean just a kind of quick summarize here too for listeners is ask this question

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:12

yourself, do you know the effectiveness of your marketing in your business?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:16

Do you know how effective it's being and, and when I say effective, what's

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:20

the first thing that pops in your head?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:21

Is it sales?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:22

Is it leads?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:23

Uh, is it, is it a true prospect, someone who's a qualified fit for your business?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:28

You know, is it just ringing the bell that's leads?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:29

Is it a qualified lead, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:31

That's a little different.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:32

Is it, you know, the size of the sale, the average order value?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:36

Is it the frequency, how often they're coming in?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:38

Is it a specific product you're trying to move?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:41

Is it a new area or territory you're trying to expand?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:43

Is it, uh, The interactions engagements on the website and emails and social

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:49

there's so many things it could be.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:51

Maybe it's all these things.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:53

How well do you understand the effectiveness of your marketing today?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:56

Great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:56

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:57

So how often are you updating it then?

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:00

Okay, great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:00

It's effective today.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:02

It may not be effective three months from now.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:03

So what does that take to have an engine, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:07

A marketing department in your business or an agency or whatever

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:10

that is that is generating a frequent.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:14

Set of campaigns that either needs to be refreshed or parts of it that need to be

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:18

refreshed so that it's always gonna be delivering, improving, and, and guiding

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:23

your business and delivering back to you, insights, performance, results.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:27

I think that all needs to be considered when you're looking at what's the

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:30

ROI of marketing and also that it aligns with your business goals.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:33

I think marketing that just rings a bell, but that has night and to do with

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:36

the way the business wants to grow.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:37

Is a, is sort of a waste because it's gotta align now.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:40

Obviously things nobody's perfect ever, like Glenn said, human beings

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:44

are wildly unpredictable, so you'd need to just have feelers out there

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:50

and testing and feeling it out.

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:52

Was there anything else Glenn that we didn't say, or we didn't

Kevin Dieny: 00:48:54

mention before we close out here?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:48:56

I love how you're, you know, committed to the process.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:48:58

Maybe the one takeaway here is the answer to, you know, does it work?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:03

Does it not work?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:05

That's not gonna make anybody truly satisfied and we all

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:10

have a profit imperative.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:12

So the sooner that we commit ourselves to learning all the things you said,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:21

and watching this loop happen, the better off we're gonna be for it.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:25

And, you know, I really do believe that marketing serves a business.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:28

It's not the other way.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:30

And so, you know, if you are either a principal or have been

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:36

entrusted as a manager in a business and you know that it is meant to

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:40

grow, then it'll just go better.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:43

If you decide to take in what marketing can do and follow along on.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:51

Process of inquiry that will eventually help your company.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:54

I wholeheartedly believe it will, but I want you to see it, you know,

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:49:59

in proof in your actual numbers and in staff that can be hired and in

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:06

good things that can be done in the community in which the company is, this

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:10

is where it all ultimately should go.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:14

Uh, and marketing is I think, an essential element to get you there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:17

Yeah, I'd like to echo that and also say, marketing is

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:21

something that, yes, it might, there are specialists, but it is a hat that

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:26

anyone can put on and reporting it, measuring it, seeing if it's successful.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:30

It doesn't take a, a tech genius that you could do it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:35

And I, and I would like to echo that too, that what we're talking about

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:38

isn't only for all of the biggest companies or the most complicated

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:41

setups, anyone can do that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:43

So, Glenn, let's say someone wants to reach out to you, contact you and learn

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:47

more about you, your agency, or anything, your abouts, check out your podcast.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:51

How can people find you?

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:54

And thanks for the opportunity, Kevin.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:56

They're welcome to reach out to me.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:50:58

I'm pretty, uh, visible on social media.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:01

If they are into LinkedIn, they can come and look for Glenn Schmelzle.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:06

They can look for, 'Hey GlennS' on other social platforms.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:11

If they want to, go check out a podcast.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:15

They can go on to whichever platform they're listening to this show on

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:19

and listen to Funnel Reboot, where we talk more to the marketer on

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:25

what they can do to get better.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:27

And, uh, They're welcome to use any and all of those.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:30

Well, Glenn, thank you so much for coming on and talking about

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:33

this topic and really, you know, I think putting some polish on marketing and ROI

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:39

on, you know, what it is, marketing's goals are how it fits into a business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:43

What success is we've really tackled and talked about.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:46

A lot of we've been into some rabbit holes too.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:49

So I think it's a really great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:51

Resource for our listeners to that, want to get more out of marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:55

and wanna put marketing into a better position in their company.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:58

So thanks, Glenn.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:51:59

Thank you.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:52:00

And that's what I hope to do.

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:52:01

And if anybody wants to reach out and carry it on farther, even if they want

Glenn Schmelzle: 00:52:05

to just find out more, uh, what's down one of those rabbit holes I'm game.

Kevin Dieny: 00:52:09

Oh, that sounds great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:52:10

All right, Glenn have, have a great day.

Kevin Dieny: 00:52:11

Thank you listeners for chiming into the Close the Loop podcast.