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Hydrocool: Boosting a Hydrogen-Powered Future in Ontario
Episode 17 • 23rd May 2025 • Making it in Ontario • Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing
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This episode features Will Harney, the CEO of Hydrocool and a former Magna executive. After a career in automotive operations and R&D at Magna—playing a role in its 1987 Vehma Torrero concept car—he co-founded Hydrocool, a startup that’s building hydrogen-powered refrigeration units for transport trailers. Will shares his perspective on automotive R&D and on the possibility of a Canadian-owned car company, the exciting applications of hydrogen fuel cells, and why he thinks hydrogen could replace diesel sooner than you think.

  • 04:17 Will Harney's Experience at Magna
  • 09:20 Lessons from the Vehma Torrero for Building a Canadian Car Company
  • 12:50 Does Canada Already Have an OEM?
  • 18:50 The Process and Value of Automotive R&D
  • 23:09 How NGen’s EV Manufacturing Value Chain Program Led To Hydrocool
  • 30:19 How Hydrogen Works and Why It Could Be Everywhere Soon
  • 38:31 Hydrocool’s R&D Foundation
  • 41:11 Collaborations and Partnerships

Find Out More about Hydrocool and Other Mentioned Projects

Find Out More About Trillium

About the Making it in Ontario Podcast

Making it in Ontario is your window into what's next in manufacturing. Ontario’s economy depends on manufacturing, but the latest research reveals concerning trends that could undermine the sector’s strength—if we don’t address them. Join us as we talk to CEOs and other leaders at the forefront of the sector about productivity, strategy, talent markets and career opportunities, and the role of manufacturing in a prosperous and sustainable future.

This podcast is an initiative of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. It is produced by Storied Places Media.

Transcripts

Michelle Samson:

Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in

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Ontario's manufacturing sector from the

data driven researchers at the Trillium

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Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

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I'm Michelle Samson.

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Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.

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Michelle Samson: Okay, Brendan, we have

got a, we say this every time, but we've

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got a really interesting guest this week.

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Who do we have up today?

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Brendan Sweeney: We have Will Harney, who

is the CEO and Co-founder of Hydrocoolol.

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So Hydrocoolol, that's

what he's doing now.

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In a past life he was Magna executive.

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He played a lead role in Magna's

R&D operations in Canada and beyond,

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and I got to know him and Trillium

got to know him when we worked on

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a project a while back with NGen,

Porsche Consulting and the APMA.

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This is 2021, 2022.

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Links in the show notes.

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Michelle Samson: So we're gonna

be drawing from both hats.

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He's got all this knowledge from

all of these different areas.

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So we start this interview with

some insights into the automotive

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industry in Canada and really

particularly automotive R&D,

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, and we talk a bit

about the possibility of a Canadian owned

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car company or vehicle manufacturer.

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We also talk about Will's role many moons

ago in developing the Vehma Torrero,

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which was Magna's well ahead of its time

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Again, links in the show notes.

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Look at this thing and to

think that it was made in:

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that's almost unthinkable.

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It was way ahead of its time and

a really interesting and exciting

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display of Magna's capabilities at

the time, as Magna was ascending.

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Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

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I'd never heard of that project.

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And yeah, when you flipped me

the image, I was truly surprised.

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Like it does not look like a

car that was designed in:

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It could roll out today and

wouldn't look so outta place.

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So, really wild that Magna was doing that.

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Obviously, we're also going to

talk to Will about hydrogen, which

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I just found really fascinating.

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He's moved on from Magna into his own

company, which is called Hydrocool.

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Brendan Sweeney: Hydrocool is

itself a pretty cool company.

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They do a lot of work at Ontario

Tech University in Durham Region.

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Will is really insistent in us telling

this story not just about Hydrocool,

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but about this really well developed

hydrogen ecosystem that exists in Ontario.

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Next Hydrogen, Accelera, and Hydrogen

Optimized are all producing electrolyzers.

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There are a number of hydrogen fueling

stations that are either online or

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coming online, including Carlsun's at

Pearson Airport, and Enbridge behind

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the fence, quote unquote, behind the

fence facility in Markham, and at ITD at

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Innovative Trailer Design in Etobicoke.

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Atura Power's Niagara Hydrogen Center

is scheduled to come online next year.

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And Elemental Trucks, maybe a target

for this podcast, is developing hydrogen

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fuel cell powered vehicles in Ontario.

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And all this is supported by

the Government of Ontario's

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Hydrogen Innovation Fund,

which was recently re-upped.

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Michelle Samson: Yeah.

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Will successfully convinced me

that hydrogen, is gonna be huge.

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It has so many benefits and applications.

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This is gonna be a great opportunity

to learn more about hydrogen, about

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Hydrocool, and about the automotive

industry right here in Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Mm-hmm.

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From a really interesting character,

and we're glad we got him on.

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Michelle Samson: Will Harney.

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Right here on Making it in Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Will, hope you

had a great Victoria Day weekend.

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Nice to have you.

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Will Harney: Thanks for having me.

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And, And yeah, we did have a fantastic

Victoria Day holiday weekend, sailing and

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enjoying all that Ontario has to offer.

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A little bit of rest, hopefully

enough for this, interview.

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Really excited to talk

about Making it in Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: We're gonna talk

about Hydrocool, your new company.

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We're gonna talk about,

hydrogen and that industry.

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But give us a bit of

background about yourself.

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We came to know each other working

on a project together a few years

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ago, and you have some experience in

the automotive industry in Ontario.

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So, as much as you want to tell

us about that, tell us about it.

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Will Harney: Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah, so I studied mechanical

engineering technology at Ryerson, and

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my dream was always to get involved

in designing and building cars.

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So I was super fortunate to get to work

at Magna International pretty early in

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my career at a time when Magna was really

going through an incredible growth.

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Frank Stronach had brought together

a really, really strong team.

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A lot of engineers and leaders, operators

from Europe, and that really provided

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a number of ingredients that allowed

for entrepreneurship, and frankly, a

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little bit of audacity that made Magna

an extremely exciting place to work in

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the eighties and nineties and beyond.

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That was how I started.

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And ended up working in R&D after working

in a number of operating divisions.

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But my passion was always

product development.

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And research and development.

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Along the way to working in setting up

the Magna R&D facility up in Aurora,

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Ontario, I was fortunate to work in

a company called Vehma, which was a

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company that Manfred Gingl, president

at the time, had set up to develop

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vehicle technology, and it was based in

Ontario with an incredible crew, talent

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from Steyr-Daimler-Puch in Austria.

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These are teams of engineers

who had designed and built cars,

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including the beloved, G-Wagen.

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In that timeframe, Magna was pursuing

full vehicle development programs, and

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I was the new guy, so I got what was

originally thought to be a bit of an

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ugly Betty program and it was a fully

homologated battery electric vehicle

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developed for the Electric Power Research

Institute in Palo Alto, California.

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So, interesting ride developing

Magna was a manufacturer of record.

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we built almost 200 vehicles

distributed throughout North America.

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So a really great opportunity

to learn about EV tech and

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vehicle development back then.

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So Magna was full of those

kinds of opportunities.

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I spent time working in the US in

the seating R&D area for Magna.

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So I got a really good chance to

work in Detroit, so super fun.

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So yeah, Magna gave me enormous

opportunities to learn and to

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meet a ton of great people and

work in operations and R&D.

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Brendan Sweeney: We forget sometimes

that Magna, well, one, they do make cars

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in Graz, Austria for other customers.

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They did have interest, however many years

ago in making a car from tip to tail.

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And were you involved in,

there's a car that's still on

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display in Brampton, right?

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Will Harney: There sure is a car

that's still on display in Brampton.

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Brendan Sweeney: And what's

the name of that car?

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Will Harney: Torrero.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, yeah,

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Will Harney: Yeah.

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Back to Fred again.

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Fred Gingl was, still is,

an incredible visionary.

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He really could see the potential for

Magna developing and building vehicles.

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Like, we're talking about Magna

:

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So Torrero was really a great example

of Fred's vision and leadership,

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and it really got people stoked.

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It was a super exciting program

and it provided a sense that

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everything is possible if you are

prepared to do the hard work and

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bring the right people together.

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Brendan Sweeney: I'm gonna see if

I can actually pop this in the chat

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for Michelle because for 1987, this

is a pretty futuristic looking, like

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this vehicle was ahead of its time.

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Yeah.

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Michelle Samson: This is

not what I was expecting.

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Will Harney: It was

pretty, pretty incredible.

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And so that's the team that was brought to

Magna from Steyr-Daimler-Puch, originally

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to go after a Canadian military vehicle

contract competing against Bombardier

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and whatnot Those guys stuck around

and led to the kernel of what became an

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incredibly powerful story within Magna.

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Vehma still lives to this

day, it's in Michigan.

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They build cars and design cars.

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But magna acquired Steyr in 1996.

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And then, yeah, to your point, became a

vehicle builder, a contract manufacturer.

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And Don, Don Walker, led the company's

growth through that phase of time until

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he retired just a little while ago.

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Knew the value of having access

to full vehicle technology.

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It gave Magna engineers and operators

a sense of what good looks like and

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what the whole thing looks like,

which is really a rare, rare skillset.

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Don was pretty clear that we should

never necessarily put the Magna name on a

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vehicle but Magna inside sure made sense.

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And, yeah, really exciting

company to work for.

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Brendan Sweeney: Mm-hmm.

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With all the Project Arrow going on

now and all the talk, and I think right

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now it is just talk, about, well, maybe

we should have a Canadian car company.

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Will Harney: Right.

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Brendan Sweeney: Probably

easier said than done.

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What lessons from doing that

work with Magna from the Torrero

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could we pull out of this?

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Compare and contrast what Magna was trying

to do with the Torrero in:

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what's happening with Project Arrow today.

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Will Harney: Super interesting idea to

compare and contrast 'cause I think what

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Magna ended up doing was acquiring a

company that was a tiny, perfect Austrian

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OEM that built under their own name, but

also built in a contract manufacturer

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for Mercedes and Saab and whoever

else they could find as a customer.

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So having the capability to build a car,

that's something I believe is absolutely

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in the Canadian automotive DNA, like

in the supply chain and expat OEM

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assets that are interested in doing so.

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So our ability to build a

car in Canada, absolutely.

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Our ability to stand up a

brand, bit more of a challenge.

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To do an end-to-end development

from ground up is a multi tens of

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billions of dollars proposal, right?

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Steyr in Austria was started

by being given old tooling from

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a I think a Fiat, post-war.

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Same as Toyota got GM tooling post-war.

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Volvo, same thing.

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You need to have a huge headstart.

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You need to have a huge headstart

of body engineering, stamping dies.

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Like just to build a body shop and

have the tooling is a, a big deal.

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It's tens of billions of dollars.

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So probably not something you could

jump on in isolation without having a

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partnership with an OEM that would share

product knowledge, frankly, and tooling.

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I think there's a different path, and I

think this is something that we can get

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to a bit later when we talk a bit more

about Hydrocool, but there seems to be

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an opportunity, I believe, not to go

after a passenger car or a light truck,

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which is a $30 billion proposition to

stand up, but maybe take a different

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look at building capacity in a more

possible way, which is to go after

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the medium/heavy duty truck business.

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I mean, that's a different kind of animal.

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It's important from an

economic perspective.

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We use extensively in Canada medium/heavy

and heavy duty trucks to move food,

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move goods, coast to coast to coast.

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So we're a big, big consumer

and not really a producer.

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You have examples of us being, you

know, pretty good at building heavy

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duty complex vehicles like that.

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If you look at New Flyer Industries

in Manitoba, we're a significantly

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important manufacturer of urban transit

buses in Canada, and then beyond.

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We have plants around North America.

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If you take that model, it's complicated,

there's a lot of value in it, so it's

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great for jobs and prosperity, but

it's got a really, really low bar

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relative to regulatory restrictions.

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And I think that's the difference,

is if you look at medium/heavy truck,

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there are standards for sure, but

nowhere near the standards that are

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required for passenger vehicles.

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And that's the distinction.

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So I believe there's a way to a vehicle

production Canadian OEM for sure.

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But don't start with a passenger car.

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Don't jump into the most fiercely

competitive complex product,

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you know, on the road today.

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Brendan Sweeney: That's also an oligopoly.

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Will Harney: Exactly.

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Brendan Sweeney: And I guess,

yeah, I was having a conversation

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with someone this morning about

do we have a Canadian OEM or not?

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And I guess New Flyer Industries

would be our Canadian vehicle

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OEM, on-road vehicle OEM.

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Although most of the transit buses

are made in the United States, but the

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coach buses are made in Winnipeg because

they bought Motor Coach Industries.

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Will Harney: Right.

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Brendan Sweeney: Nova Bus, which

is a Volvo division in Montreal,

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is making almost exclusively

for the Canadian market now.

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Will Harney: Mm-hmm.

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Brendan Sweeney: And Prevost is making

coach buses, which is also a Volvo Group,

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not Volvo Cars but Volvo Group, is a

Swedish company, not a Chinese company,

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is making buses for Canada and the United

States, and Prevost makes the bus shells

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that they ship to a company in Tennessee

who then makes super high security

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buses that Taylor Swift would use on her

tour or that there's Ground Force One,

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there's a bus that the president rolls

around in that has a Canadian made shell.

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Will Harney: Was that a

gift or was that acquired?

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Brendan Sweeney: I think it was

acquired and maybe it was, maybe

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it was a gift from the company in

Tennessee that made the bus, but

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they paid for the shell from Canada.

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Will Harney: As far as the number of

vehicle manufacturers, even in off-road

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equipment and so on, that get rolled

up into large multinationals like

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Volvo Truck, which is a spectacular

organization, Prevost Car, it's a half

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a million dollars to get the bus shell.

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Then off it goes to get turned into

a Taylor Swift Ground Force Two

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or whatever, multimillion dollar

industry, to do the upfitting.

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There's a lot of value

added in those vehicles.

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There really is a lot of value added

and although the numbers aren't big,

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like even in heavy duty trucking or

medium duty trucking, it's tens of

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thousands of units maybe just over a

hundred thousand units in North America.

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They're expensive.

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And If you look at alt tech,

like the dearly departed Nikola

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Motors fuel cell Class 8 tractor.

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They were apparently in the market at, at

approximately, $650,000 Canadian per copy.

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And that was a bit low.

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So now the next guys that are coming

in to fill in the vacuum will be

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Hyundai, which is they build a great

fuel cell powered Class 8 truck.

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It's gonna really move in

quickly to take over the market.

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'cause there's no one

currently in that space.

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And they'll do well.

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But in Ontario we have Elemental Truck.

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Elemental is trying to stand up a fuel

cell based Class 8 truck in Ontario.

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Right?

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And they're smart.

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Like Jamie Ally, the CEO

and founder is smart.

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He's going after an industry he knows the

degree of difficulty from a regulatory

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perspective is manageable relative to body

chassis and sort of the truck components.

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Also supported by a very, very

well-established supply chain around

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the world that can give you all the

bits for it, generally speaking,

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and he's using fuel cell technology.

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Which, again, we have a fair

bit of in Canada, like, we're

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we're pioneers in a sense.

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And of course they have a motor

that drives an axle and so on.

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So interestingly, I think that's

an interesting idea that you can go

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after a different kind of segment,

go after medium and heavy duty, like

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the New Flyer Industries success

story, with alt fuel in the bus world.

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Like they're early adopters of

CNG, hydrogen, battery electric.

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That's New Flyer, they made

their mark through going after

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non-conventional powertrain applications.

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We can do it too.

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The biggest barrier to entry to anyone

starting a car company or any country

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starting a car company is powertrain.

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I mean, a powertrain has a product

lifecycle, of two to three,

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possibly four, in the case of the

small block Chevy V8 probably like

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10 vehicle program lifecycles.

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It's a multi-decade investment, like

the Ford Eco Boost system and so on.

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Like it's tens of billions of dollars.

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A long time.

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Then you have to have a transmission

to connect it to, and then you have

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to have all the other powertrain bits.

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It's a super expensive

and complex process.

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So how do we build a car or a medium or

heavy duty truck story in Canada with a

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Canadian brand, an OEM where you can hang

on to all the talent and hang on to all

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the income that'll flow from having an

actual corporate leadership team based in

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Canada, 'cause that's where ultimately the

money comes from, for taxation anyways?

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You need to have a powertrain.

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But, there was an article recently,

in the Trucking News, which I read

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with great interest these days, a

company called Fontaine Modification,

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it's a great company in the Carolinas

that does a lot of upfitting of

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large trucks for many customers.

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Just announced a program where

they're building a medium duty truck

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using a Ballard fuel cell engine,

which apparently works pretty well.

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It's connected electrically

to a Linamar eAxle.

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So now you have two Canadian

companies who essentially provide

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the powertrain, which is the barrier

to entry that's existed, since auto

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developed the auto cycle, right?

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So it's a whole new day.

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You have a chance to move into a new

segment with a transportation fuel,

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hydrogen, and it changes the game.

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So now, you can have a hydrogen

powered truck or a hydrogen

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powered light truck in the future.

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Or hydrogen powered passenger cars

in the future, if it makes sense.

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But you can start right now 'cause you

have the technology in Canada, based

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in Canadian automotive supply chain.

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With companies like Linamar who have

an eAxle that's wholly capable of

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driving a truck or a pickup truck.

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All they need is electricity.

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Oh, they happen to have battery

modules with which Linamar

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develops and produces today.

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They've also developed a flex form which

is a super innovative and clever high

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pressure hydrogen storage tank solution,

which can be bolted into the same vehicle.

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So, and then you just go across the

Rockies, go to Ballard, pick up a fuel

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cell engine, or Unilia or the other

fuel cell developers in BC and you

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have a solution to power a vehicle.

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That's the gateway opportunity.

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Brendan Sweeney: So, just backing up in

the conversation, opening a black box for

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us around R&D and automotive R&D, and for

the past 10 or 15 years, since we started

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producing fewer vehicles in Canada, we

were at 3 million, then we were at 2.5

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million, then at 2 million, 1.5

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million.

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There's been more and more talk about,

okay, well let's try to do more R&D.

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It's an interesting proposition

because we're trying to say, well,

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this industry's getting smaller.

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Let's try to do more of the thing

that tends to accompany it when

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we're doing a lot more of it anyway.

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Tell us a bit about your life in R&D.

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What do you actually do?

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Why is it valuable and why is it

important to be doing automotive R&D

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Ontario if we want to be building more

cars or making more parts in Ontario?

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Will Harney: That's a couple interviews.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

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Will Harney: But we will try and

take a stab at a chunk of it right?.

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So R and D, right?

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So research and development.

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Some people call it research

and innovation, like Ford Motor

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Company, their thing's called

RNI, Research and Innovation.

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I think, going back to Magna, Don

Walker once said, probably more than

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once, research is the conversion of

money into knowledge and you want,

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some more money to generate more

knowledge through your research efforts.

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And he goes, well, the good

news is that innovation is the

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conversion of knowledge into money.

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So as long as you're prepared to

do both and live with a project

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or live with the concepts from

conceptualization straight to launch,

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you got something to talk about.

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But you need to have both and you need

to a clear grasp of what areas you

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should be researching and that's where

the, going back to the idea of having

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Terrero, like something that gets

in front of an audience that you can

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learn about functional gaps, talk to

consumer, understand why a minivan in

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1986, although working quite nicely not

necessarily what everyone wants to drive.

348

:

And maybe there's this idea of a

different type of vehicle that has

349

:

utility and beauty performance, so

that's a product innovation idea.

350

:

So then how do you develop

technology to support doing that?

351

:

And that's really been the

story of the automotive research

352

:

and development industry.

353

:

I mean in Europe and North

America and Asia as well.

354

:

Clearly over the last number of decades.

355

:

It's really trying I think, when we

talked to Toyota Canada, to Scott on

356

:

one of your previous podcasts, he talks

about the number of vehicle segments that

357

:

they have, within Toyota globally and

built within Ontario for that matter,

358

:

and he said, at one point he corrected

himself and he mentioned like car.

359

:

He said, not really car, it's really SUV.

360

:

Like, we're really an SUV company.

361

:

And that's really where the ball's

gone the last number of decades.

362

:

And I think he touched on comments

around productivity and why ostensibly

363

:

we're selling more stuff, there's

more GDP, but fewer folks driving

364

:

rivets into cars or what have you.

365

:

Well, It's 'cause there's far more

product in the unit, like there's just

366

:

that much more density of stuff, right?

367

:

And so, and they have to be lighter,

they have to do more things.

368

:

And that's where the

product research comes in.

369

:

And so trying to densify and through

integration and functional integration,

370

:

that's what the research piece is.

371

:

And once you get the aha moment, you

can capture it and then validate it

372

:

through experimental development.

373

:

Get some patents around it,

which is always a good idea.

374

:

You can sell it.

375

:

And the innovation piece

is taking it into market.

376

:

The point is you need to

have a problem to solve.

377

:

And it's very difficult to identify

a problem to solve as a researcher

378

:

if you don't have clear insight into

consumer behavior needs and wants.

379

:

That's something we, I think when we first

met, we talked about what we could do in

380

:

Canada for the automotive supply chain,

the value chain, and my position always

381

:

was it's the consumer first, you have to

have a consumer-centric innovation policy.

382

:

You have to have a consumer-centric

industrialization policy.

383

:

If you don't, what are you building?

384

:

Right?

385

:

And it's like, Dennis DesRosiers says, oh,

say it's like product, product, product,

386

:

kinda like the rip off of the real estate

agent's location, location, location.

387

:

Dennis would say it's

product, product, product.

388

:

If you don't have product,

you have nothing to research,

389

:

you have nothing to build.

390

:

And you need to get that insight.

391

:

and that's why you need to have

access to consumer knowledge.

392

:

Have to have access to problems to solve.

393

:

Brendan Sweeney: So, why don't we tell

the world our origin story, which is

394

:

probably about four years ago today.

395

:

Like, maybe not today, today, but

it was about, it would've been April

396

:

or May of 2021 that we embarked

on a bit of a journey together.

397

:

Will Harney: Yeah, we did.

398

:

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

399

:

And it was a, it was an interesting

journey and it led somehow to

400

:

Hydrocool, so let's talk about it..

401

:

Will Harney: Yeah, so I think when

we met, I'd been doing some work

402

:

with John Laughlin at the NGen.

403

:

I think it was a super cluster back then.

404

:

Brendan Sweeney: It's still super.

405

:

Will Harney: It's still super.

406

:

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

407

:

Will Harney: It's very super, yeah.

408

:

So John, who I think sort of had

recently jumped into the fray to

409

:

be the chief technology officer

at the NGen, working for Jay.

410

:

ISED, Industry Canada, had decided to

take a look at all this movement happening

411

:

in electrification, you know, Model 3

had been launched, Model Y was coming.

412

:

It was like a lot of stuff was

happening relative to electrification.

413

:

The question was, what does Canada do?

414

:

And what's gonna happen to the Canadian

automotive supply chain or the value

415

:

chain in the face of that electrification?

416

:

John brought together a really interesting

team of folks to work on that project.

417

:

Trillium, yours truly, we had Warren

Ali from the APMA on every call, I

418

:

believe, providing that voice and

fresh off the back of scrambling

419

:

together the Arrow project, he had a

really good grasp of the supply chain.

420

:

Good, good network.

421

:

And then Porsche Engineering.

422

:

And Porsche Engineering was in the

project 'cause they'd recently gone

423

:

through a really interesting project

to try and get Volkswagen outta

424

:

the penalty box for the Dieselgate.

425

:

And they essentially retooled their entire

product line and their entire supply chain

426

:

globally to pivot Audi group to electric

so they had some fresh, fresh knowledge.

427

:

And yeah, that was a really great project.

428

:

Yeah.

429

:

We talked a lot about where you

should look first and I think we had

430

:

a lot of discussion around consumer

centric product focus versus sort of

431

:

material centric and mining focus.

432

:

And, in the end, think the report

did a good job of balancing

433

:

a lot of different interests.

434

:

But yeah, that's what we started.That

435

:

was it.

436

:

Brendan Sweeney: Mm-hmm.

437

:

Will Harney: Met some great people, got

some great insights, and because ISED

438

:

had decided to lean into understanding

this challenge, a lot came out of it.

439

:

Then, I think the legacy of

that is a number of investments

440

:

in gigaplants for batteries.

441

:

Definitely greater focus on trying

to get to the Ring of Fire, and start

442

:

working on a critical mineral strategy.

443

:

Then it's a little small piece of

it, which is to do with the product

444

:

and why should you pursue critical

minerals in the first place?

445

:

Well, because people need to be mobile

and they do it through a number of

446

:

different ways, and personal transport

is still a big, big chunk of that, right?

447

:

So I think I'd like to see the chapter

two of that rolling forward now.

448

:

And I think that's the opportunity

we have today because of the climate,

449

:

because of a focus on our resilience

and our independence in terms of

450

:

these key commodities like vehicles.

451

:

Yeah, there's a big opportunity for that.

452

:

So, the link to hydrogen was the project,

the NGen project, where we identified

453

:

that in terms of electrification versus

liquid fuels, diesel and gasoline and

454

:

natural gas, compressed natural gas, that

hydrogen would be a:

455

:

for passenger cars and light trucks.

456

:

I took away, amongst many things from

the report, but I took away the question,

457

:

so why do you have to wait till 2037

for hydrogen to make it into mobility?

458

:

This didn't seem right when it's

such a great energy transport medium.

459

:

I started brainstorming with my

co-founder, Pierre-Xavier Roy, who

460

:

worked with at Magna, he worked in

automotive for also a number of years.

461

:

Worked also for Faurecia,

or Forvia now, in France.

462

:

And, so between the two of us, we

had a pretty good grasp of product

463

:

development and we attacked that problem.

464

:

The question was, how can you get

hydrogen into mobility before:

465

:

And we stumbled upon an application

to get hydrogen into mobile

466

:

refrigeration, which is essentially

the way that food and pharmaceuticals

467

:

are moved around the planet on land.

468

:

And that's in large

trailers, like semi-trailers.

469

:

And today, and back in 2022

when we started working at it

470

:

in earnest, almost all, 99.9%,

471

:

of all those trailers are

powered by diesel engines.

472

:

Little 2.1

473

:

liter, four cylinder diesel engines that

evolved from:

474

:

In fact, one of the biggest

suppliers of diesel engines into

475

:

the refrigerator transport business

is a company called Yanmar.

476

:

Yanmar is a fantastic

Japanese small engine company.

477

:

Mar for marine, they're

involved in marine and whatnot.

478

:

In fact, I've got a Yanmar in my sailboat.

479

:

Great engine.

480

:

But the Yanmar origin story, which

is, I'll keep it as short as possible.

481

:

So after World War II, along with various

countries getting tooling from countries

482

:

to build cars, Yanmar got the blueprints,

patterns, and all machine tools to

483

:

build a two cylinder diesel engine.

484

:

It was designed for D-Day landing craft,

so it was a horizontally not opposed

485

:

two cylinder, super low to allow the

landing craft floor to be low, to

486

:

allow for our troops to get safely

onto the beach as quickly as possible.

487

:

That whole kit and caboodle was sent

to Japan to help re-industrialize

488

:

Japan after the Second World War.

489

:

And Japan being Japan said, oh

two cylinder diesel, way too big.

490

:

So they cut it in half and

made a single cylinder diesel.

491

:

That engine was built until

the nineties for like boats

492

:

and whatnot, or small tractors.

493

:

That's how Yanmar started.

494

:

I remember taking mine apart and

there's a little mechanical fuel

495

:

injection pump that makes it work.

496

:

Genius, simple.

497

:

Developed in England in 1936 in Coventry.

498

:

It's essentially what's in a refrigerator

trailer today, just four cylinder.

499

:

Same thing.

500

:

Mechanical fuel injection, no

regulation, no emissions control,

501

:

no real efficiency control.

502

:

And they're everywhere.

503

:

So they're little mini emitters, they're

below regulation, there's no EPA or

504

:

environment candidate regulation.

505

:

So they dump out 30 metric tons

a year of CO2 per trailer, and

506

:

there are a million trailers in

North America, so figure it out.

507

:

And they're also, they dump tons of pm 2.5

508

:

fine particular emissions.

509

:

NOx and SOx are not regulated.

510

:

And the trailers are autonomously fueled.

511

:

They have their own fuel up

to 400 liters or 420 liters

512

:

of diesel per trailer, right.

513

:

And so it's obviously a ton of energy

required and the question is why?

514

:

It's because they run by themselves for

days on end nowhere near a semi tractor.

515

:

So they get dropped off at a

depot or distribution center

516

:

and they run for literally days.

517

:

So they're huge power consumers or energy

consumers, low power energy consumers.

518

:

That's how we started it.

519

:

That was the moment was, it was like,

wow, this is a way better solution

520

:

if we can use hydrogen than diesel.

521

:

Brendan Sweeney: So hydrogen, for

those who are not in the know, tell

522

:

us in a nutshell how this works,

why it's valuable, how it's not just

523

:

a clean tech, but it can translate

into profits, jobs, prosperity.

524

:

And generally, we know Toyota is keen

on hydrogen and on fuel cell vehicles.

525

:

Other companies are less keen.

526

:

Why isn't hydrogen everywhere?

527

:

Will Harney: Well, it will be, it

just it's not everywhere right now.

528

:

and I think the reason it's

important, it hydrogen, is that it

529

:

does a number of things for a number

of people, it's a crowd pleaser.

530

:

And so utilities like in

Ontario love hydrogen.

531

:

'Cause you can use it to store energy.

532

:

It's a great energy storage solution.

533

:

So it can manage what in the utility

world is called intermittency.

534

:

So especially when you look at renewables,

wind power, solar power, when you have

535

:

intermittency, just because of time

of day or weather conditions trying to

536

:

have this sort of mind of its own power

generation solution and trying to match it

537

:

to a regular daily cycle of peak demands.

538

:

In the context of nuclear power

plants, and thermal power plants,

539

:

the ones that are left, they're

looking to supply the base load.

540

:

So hydrogen's a great

solution for utilities.

541

:

That's why the Ontario government had the

vision to launch the Hydrogen Innovation

542

:

Fund in 2023, I believe, that spent

money on establishing hydrogen capability

543

:

within Ontario's power generation world

and gave Atura, one of the OPG kind of

544

:

suppliers, if you will, a chance to build

a hydrogen I'll use the word production

545

:

facility loosely but an electrolyzing

solution in Niagara taking clean surplus

546

:

Niagara electric power and flipping

it into hydrogen for use in Ontario.

547

:

And that'll come online in 2026,

with between five and 8,000

548

:

kilograms per day capacity of fuel

cell grade hydrogen, which is key

549

:

to support mobility applications.

550

:

So Hydrogen is great for utilities.

551

:

It's also really, really good if

you have an area that has limited

552

:

access to the electricity grid.

553

:

If you live in a city, you have access

to significant amounts of electricity

554

:

as much as you need, pretty well.

555

:

And I think you touched on that with

your discussion with Toyota or regarding

556

:

EV charging, you mentioned the idea

of digging out snowbanks to try and

557

:

find a spot to park and the difficulty

of getting connected to a charger.

558

:

Well, that's a problem that

can be solved with hydrogen.

559

:

Hydrogen's super portable.

560

:

You can store a lot of it on

a car or a truck, so you don't

561

:

need to charge it as often.

562

:

And if you do charge it or

fill it, it fills fast, like

563

:

in minutes, like liquid fuel.

564

:

It's really good for electricity deserts.

565

:

Ports for instance, which are trapped

with cities that are growing up around

566

:

them, they can't run new electric

power transmission into the Port

567

:

of Los Angeles through Palo Verde.

568

:

People will get upset.

569

:

So ports are basically

electric energy deserts.

570

:

And so are virtually every truck

stop on every interstate or every 400

571

:

series highway or major highway in

North America and around the world.

572

:

So if you want to electrify

transportation, it's a good idea

573

:

if you have access to electricity,

it's a terrible idea if you

574

:

don't have access to electricity.

575

:

Hydrogen solves that problem

'cause it's portable and has

576

:

super high energy density.

577

:

So that's why it's being looked at so

extensively for heavy duty transport.

578

:

So back to what we're doing.

579

:

We're not trying to power a,

like Elemental is trying to

580

:

power a Class 8 semi tractor,

hundreds of kilowatts of power.

581

:

Little transport refrigeration units or

reefers need around 20 kilowatts of power.

582

:

It's like relatively low power, but

high energy 'Cause it runs all the time.

583

:

So for us, the challenge was

how do we convert to hydrogen.

584

:

Well, you need hydrogen first of all.

585

:

So you have to have a tank to store

pressurized hydrogen, which we're

586

:

fortunate to have access to, 'cause

there's many, many companies around

587

:

the world, including Linamar as I

mentioned earlier, who build high

588

:

pressure hydrogen storage tanks.

589

:

So, do other auto

suppliers like OPmobility.

590

:

So it's a thing within the,

in the auto supply sector.

591

:

Magna built and can build liquid

hydrogen fuel tanks, they've done

592

:

it for BMW and other customers.

593

:

So the supply chain has none

of these building blocks.

594

:

Like hydrogen storage.

595

:

Once you have the storage onboard the

vehicle, in this case a trailer you

596

:

don't need very much like, seven or eight

kilograms is enough to run for over a day.

597

:

Then you have to convert

it to something useful.

598

:

And that's where the fuel cell comes in.

599

:

So the fuel cell converts hydrogen

with air into electricity, and

600

:

heat at about 50% efficient.

601

:

Versus a diesel engine, which converts

fuel and air into power and heat

602

:

but at around 25 to 26% efficiency.

603

:

So fundamentally it's a more

efficient energy conversion process.

604

:

And now you have electricity, which

is great 'cause if you design a

605

:

refrigeration system that's natively

electric, it's gonna have all the

606

:

benefits of electrification, efficient,

reliable, durable, et cetera.

607

:

So I mean, it is really an electrification

play, but you're sort of using a

608

:

battery to do the heavy lifting

on energy storage using hydrogen.

609

:

Michelle Samson: I don't know how

brief you can be on this, but I'm

610

:

just really curious about your

vision for the future of hydrogen.

611

:

Like how widespread do you think

it will be, or could be or, what's

612

:

standing in the way and what do you

think needs to be done to be able

613

:

to roll it out to more applications?

614

:

Will Harney: Yeah, I think what needs

to be done is to do the work to support

615

:

hydrogen's development, in terms of

how can you make it like in Ontario.

616

:

Ontario government with the

Hydrogen Innovation Fund too

617

:

is doing a great job with that.

618

:

They're also spending, bringing

I think $15 million to the

619

:

table to develop applications.

620

:

So you have to have both, you have

to have production or hydrogen

621

:

conversion to have some way to

have an offtake or an application.

622

:

The vision is that you're gonna

start in cities, large centers.

623

:

So looking at Toronto, Greater

Toronto area, the Golden Horseshoe

624

:

is a huge transportation hub.

625

:

Canadians buy 50% more refrigerated

trailers than they would normally based

626

:

on a 10 to one market ratio with the US

'cause we have great distances to travel.

627

:

We have a lot of food to move.

628

:

So it's gonna start in these

hubs like around the airport.

629

:

The first commercial station for

hydrogen refueling in Ontario is

630

:

at the Greater Toronto Airport

Authority, right on Conveyor Drive.

631

:

So you can go fill up a vehicle there now.

632

:

ITD Nikola down in Etobicoke

has a fueling station as well.

633

:

So it's starting, it takes one and based

on one refueling point you can then have

634

:

a hub and spoke solution where you start

pushing it out into different extremities.

635

:

The other thing about hydrogen and

Hydrocool so we're a hydrogen powered

636

:

refrigeration system for trailers.

637

:

Fortunately the biggest single vehicle

type on the planet that is hydrogen

638

:

powered is the humble forklift.

639

:

So there are over 70,000 hydrogen

fuel cell powered forklifts running

640

:

around indoors at warehouses throughout

America and some in Canada with leading

641

:

companies like Canadian Tire that are

running hydrogen powered forklifts.

642

:

So those, the Walmarts, the Amazons,

the Wegmans, or Martin Brower in

643

:

their operations in Chicago that have

hydrogen in their distribution centers,

644

:

in their warehouses, can fuel hydrogen

vehicles 'cause they have their little

645

:

mini infrastructure play, if you will.

646

:

Right?

647

:

So that's how it starts, and it's

gonna go from there into En Routes

648

:

or truck stops, cardlocks throughout

Ontario 401 corridor, 400 corridor,

649

:

and keep on expanding that way.

650

:

That's they way it's building

today, and that's what's

651

:

happening in the US big time.

652

:

As I mentioned, Hyundai's coming

into the market with a great

653

:

product, the Class 8 truck.

654

:

They're buying shares and infrastructure

companies to be able to support ahead of

655

:

themselves the distribution of hydrogen.

656

:

Companies like OneH2 are doing it today.

657

:

So there's, it's already happening.

658

:

It's just not on the

radar for some reason.

659

:

It's not visible to

folks, but it's coming.

660

:

And I think supporting companies like

Hydrocool that will provide meaningful

661

:

offtake, provide a domestic capacity ffor

a crucial technology, which is the way to

662

:

refrigerate food and pharmaceuticals and

transport, or companies like Elemental

663

:

Truck, for instance, that are trying

to do the same thing for mobility.

664

:

That's how it's gonna start.

665

:

That's where it's gonna grow.

666

:

: Brendan Sweeney: So Will, Hydrocool,

there's a production focus,

667

:

but it has a foundation in R&D.

668

:

Tell us a bit more about that.

669

:

Will Harney: Absolutely.

670

:

So as we went to look more deeply into the

mobile refrigeration market, so they're

671

:

called transport refrigeration units,

the things that bolt onto a trailer.

672

:

In the vernacular throughout in North

America, they're called reefers.

673

:

So, as we started looking at reefers

more closely, we realized it wasn't just

674

:

simply a huge upside to bring hydrogen

into powering them and converting to

675

:

be fully electric, so electrification

play with hydrogen as the energy

676

:

storage device, there were huge, huge

opportunities to combine the requirements.

677

:

So one thing we learned and we learned

so much from our advisors, we're

678

:

super fortunate to have guys like

Bob Richardson, who founded GS Group,

679

:

who's an advisor and a shareholder.

680

:

So we have a good network of advisors that

have really helped school us in transport

681

:

and refrigerated transport specifically.

682

:

But one of the challenges that the

industry faces is that anywhere in North

683

:

America, above the 46th parallel kind of

thing, there's about three or four months

684

:

of the year where almost everything that's

shipped has to be protected from freezing.

685

:

So they're actually running as heaters

for like three or four months of the year.

686

:

And that's for every fresh fruit,

vegetable, most proteins, anything

687

:

pharmaceutical, including liquids that

are shipped by Canadian Tire to stores.

688

:

So they have to be protected from freezer.

689

:

So they actually run as heaters

for a big chunk of the time.

690

:

And it became clear to Pierre-Xavier

and I that the synergy between the fuel

691

:

cell and this heating function would

be enormously valuable from a overall

692

:

total cost of operation perspective.

693

:

So there were a number of

layers of innovation came

694

:

through the research process.

695

:

And and we have applied for a

patent in:

696

:

issued a couple months ago so

we're super stoked to have patent.

697

:

The other piece on the R&D side

was, we realized also very quickly

698

:

that the way to optimize and control

the system became way, way more

699

:

complicated than my co-founder and

I could figure out mathematically.

700

:

So we brought Yevhenii Zotkin into

our team and he is a machine learning

701

:

engineer expert and he helped co-author

our patent and wrote all the components.

702

:

So it's a huge AI component around

prediction using aPI calls to look at

703

:

weather and traffic conditions ahead,

looking ahead, and the system then makes

704

:

decisions regarding optimization of the

fuel cell and the refrigeration unit.

705

:

So it's a big complex ball of

mechanical synergies, mechanical

706

:

solutions, electro mechanical

solutions, and then AI to run it.

707

:

Brendan Sweeney: And there's a

partnership with Ontario Tech?

708

:

Will Harney: Yeah.

709

:

So back to the NGen

project and Warren Ali.

710

:

We heard a lot about the Arrow Project

when we were on that working together.

711

:

When we needed to look at a development

site to take our project forward just

712

:

from ideation into our prototype phase,

we met with the folks at Ontario Tech

713

:

because they'd been working on the Arrow

One development for APMA, of course,

714

:

and through meeting with Les Jacobs,

a VP of research and innovation and his

715

:

team, he got us connected with a number

of leaders in his academic side like Dr.

716

:

Martin Agelin-Chaab, and also

the ACE facility, which is our

717

:

incredibly highly aligned to

Hydrocool climatic test facility.

718

:

Which is a, again, best in class probably

unique in the world with its combined

719

:

scale, climatic test capabilities, and

hydrogen vehicle testing capabilities.

720

:

So it's a fantastic fit.

721

:

So, John Komar, who just recently

retired from the ACE facility at OTU

722

:

and his team, put together a project

with Les that allowed us to link our

723

:

needs from an R&D perspective to the

practical build and test facility

724

:

at OTU called ACE and work towards

developing our prototype, which we did.

725

:

So it's fantastic.

726

:

We're now in a phase where

we're fundraising to build our

727

:

first production release which

we hope to launch in early '26.

728

:

Along that way we'll be back at

ACE to do testing of the V 1.5

729

:

for sure.

730

:

They were great.

731

:

Also, really, really strong

relationship with the Brookfield

732

:

Sustainability Institute.

733

:

That's based out of George

Brown College in Toronto.

734

:

So Krista Holmes and her team in the R&I,

field did a ton of work for us developing

735

:

models they'll be using in our AI model.

736

:

Did a ton of work on our user

interface or journey mapping through

737

:

meeting customers and consumers.

738

:

Yeah, really great

support from BSI as well.

739

:

We're also working with Centennial

College with Jonathan Hack and

740

:

the team on the research front.

741

:

We're part of the OVIN SmartTO RTDS.

742

:

And the Centennial team, and I don't

know if you know Centennial College,

743

:

but they graduate more EV techs for

passenger cars and transport applications

744

:

than any other college in Canada.

745

:

They have the skill sets to understand

the EV parts 'cause our technology is an

746

:

EV, it's got a 400 volt DC EV platform as

well as a low voltage control platform.

747

:

So they get it and they're working to

develop microcredentials and a curriculum

748

:

for Hydrocool specific to work with our

partners like Pro Reefer who repair and

749

:

preventatively maintain refrigerated

transfer systems throughout Canada.

750

:

So there's a really interesting ecosystem

around the colleges and universities in

751

:

the Greater Toronto and Ontario area.

752

:

We're also lucky to have Aiden Lehal

and his team, they just recently

753

:

graduated from Waterloo, Mac.

754

:

And they worked on drilling into a

specific thermal synergy challenge we had

755

:

within our system, a Hydrocool system.

756

:

And they took it forward as a capstone

project, and ended up winning the

757

:

Bombardier Recreational Product

Sustainability Award for:

758

:

like, I can't even tell you how much Kraft

Dinner they got, but it was enormous.

759

:

And they then they won the overall

best capstone project of the year too.

760

:

So we have a lot of support at different

levels within academe and application.

761

:

Those guys will probably end up

working on our next patent application

762

:

'cause of the depth of work they did.

763

:

Brendan Sweeney: So this moment of time

we're in where the trade agreement that

764

:

has supported Canada's automotive industry

for decades is, its future is uncertain.

765

:

So why is it so important to have

companies like Hydrocool or other

766

:

companies doing R&D developing new

technologies in Canada at this moment?

767

:

Will Harney: Well, I think it's

so important because fundamentally

768

:

our technology goes into

something that we use every day.

769

:

Like every year in Canada, there

are probably between seven and 9,000

770

:

refrigerator trailers bought, and that's

$150,000 item from a CapEx standpoint.

771

:

Not as much as a Prevost Car bus, but

it's a significant chunk of change.

772

:

A lot of direct labor, a lot

of indirect labor supporting

773

:

production, production level.

774

:

So it's basically a $1.5

775

:

to 2 billion spend every year

or you know, GDP output, if you

776

:

look at it that way, every year.

777

:

We don't need to necessarily go

to an export market right away.

778

:

It's a massive enough piece of

business so you can stand up a company

779

:

like a Hydrocool or, a Manac who

builds trailers in Quebec and ITD in

780

:

Toronto can build trailers, they're

now upgrading to be able to build

781

:

world class best in class solutions.

782

:

And frankly, because of Canada's axis

of relationship laterally as opposed

783

:

to north-south only, you know, it's

likely that with our connections with

784

:

Europe under CETA, we have a fantastic

opportunity to share import and export

785

:

solutions with the European community.

786

:

European community, by the way, being

Europe, they've adopted the UN ATP,

787

:

which is a regulatory framework for

refrigerated transport, which goes to

788

:

efficiency, kinda like LEED building,

or C:

789

:

So you, know, our axis not just

north-south, it's super important.

790

:

It's always gonna be there it'll evolve,

and it'll change, but we can start and

791

:

build an enterprise and a sector that

will prosper within Canada and with our

792

:

currently friendly trading partners.

793

:

It's enough to start and build like two to

:

794

:

it be retaining or recruitment, it's a

huge opportunity to grow the company, give

795

:

us resilience and give us independence

and autonomy for such critical inputs.

796

:

And then in my view, the Hydrocool

system is a small, like a tiny,

797

:

perfect hydrogen fuel cell vehicle

without wheels or steering wheel.

798

:

But it's the precursor, it's the

kernel of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

799

:

So working with companies like Elemental

in Toronto, you start looking at pushing

800

:

the technology into Class 8 trucks

and then next medium duty trucks.

801

:

And way before 2035, you're gonna

see heavy duty variance of full

802

:

size pickup trucks, the F250 heavy

duties, the GMC:

803

:

Those vehicles, I think as a market has

shown, with amazing vehicles like the F150

804

:

lightning, not a really, really fantastic

application for battery electric.

805

:

Those vehicles, heavy duty versions will

benefit from being hydrogen vehicles.

806

:

So I think Canada can look ahead and say,

well, when that day of reckoning comes,

807

:

if we have a strong supply chain built

on our automotive network and the heavy

808

:

medium duty vehicle talent base we have

in Quebec, and then you have the whole

809

:

BC axis and Alberta axis for hydrogen,

you know, we have this opportunity to

810

:

build a really significantly important

mobility enterprise with hydrogen as

811

:

a precursor solution, and be ready.

812

:

So when the penny drops on the F250 heavy

duty, we'll be there with a supply chain

813

:

that can supply those critical powertrains

and possibly build our own trucks.

814

:

Brendan Sweeney: Cool.

815

:

So Will, thank you so much for

your time and your insight.

816

:

Any parting words for us?

817

:

Or the audience?

818

:

Will Harney: No,I I love

the name of your podcast.

819

:

Brendan Sweeney: It means two things

820

:

Will Harney: Does it,

is it a double entendre?

821

:

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

822

:

Will Harney: I'll tell you what, after,

you know, getting the entrepreneurship

823

:

bug working for Magna and wanting

to get involved in developing things

824

:

and when you do entrepreneurship

on your own, you wonder sometimes

825

:

if you're gonna make it in Ontario.

826

:

And we've been pulled a lot into San

Francisco, the Bay Area for money.

827

:

And, yeah, it's so much easier,

but we're gonna make it in Ontario.

828

:

We will.

829

:

Brendan Sweeney: I like it.

830

:

Will Harney: Between IPON for IP support,

the Hydrogen Innovation Fund, OVIN, IRAP

831

:

federally now, and possibly the new IRAP

Cleantech, which is the new version of

832

:

STDC, the conditions are fantastic here.

833

:

We just need to focus on building our own

brands, creating an a Canadian solution

834

:

that doesn't see money drain away, profit

drain away to other tax collectors.

835

:

And, yeah, we'll make it,

we'll make it in Ontario.

836

:

It's gonna be a made in

Ontario hydrogen future.

837

:

Brendan Sweeney: This is

great for our branding.

838

:

Will, thank you so much for your time.

839

:

Will Harney: You are so welcome.

840

:

Michelle Samson: New episodes of Making

it in Ontario are published weekly.

841

:

Follow us now on Apple Podcasts or

Spotify to make sure you don't miss any.

842

:

Making it in Ontario is an

initiative of the Trillium Network

843

:

for Advanced Manufacturing.

844

:

It is produced by Storied Places Media.

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