Episode Summary

Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he welcomes to the show founder of Ponic Jobs and co-host of the CropTalk Podcast, Kyle Barnett. Kyle is currently serving as Account Manager in the horticulture division at WestRock, focusing on helping growers create superior packaging, labels and merchandising solutions. In this episode, Harry and Kyle discuss the varying facets of ponics, from deep water culture and NFTs to vertical farming and aquaponics. They talk about the vital role distribution plays in the AgTech industry, what inspired Kyle to create the Ponic Jobs website, as well as his collaboration with CropTalk Media. His podcast segment, Kyle Talks AgTech, focuses on CEA, vertical farms, greenhouse technology as well as industry leaders.

Episode Sponsor

Ceres Greenhouse Solutions

Key Takeaways

• 
  
• 03:22 – Harry welcomes to the show Kyle Barnett, who shares his personal journey to AgTech
• 
  
• 
  
• 12:14 – How Kyle’s love of cooking inspired him to pursue a career in agriculture and the importance Kyle places on pivoting
• 
  
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• 20:42 – The work Kyle did with the Farm Tech Society and the inspiration to create the site, Ponic Jobs
• 
  
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• 29:22 – Educating future generations on AgTech and how Kyle got involved in the CropTalk Podcast  
• 
  
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• 38:30 – How Kyle has grown as a podcast host and what excites him the most about the potential and the future of AgTech
• 
  
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• 45:30 – Kyle speaks to the work he is doing at WestRock
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• 52:37 – A little known fact about Kyle that most people don’t know
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• 54:51 – Harry thanks Kyle for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can connect with him
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Tweetable Quotes

“My segment [on the CropTalk Podcast] was ‘Kyle Talks AgTech.’ And it’s been great. I’ve had over thirty-five episodes now and it’s really given me a lot of clarity into what the industry needs. As I said in the beginning, it’s been an eclectic journey but I’ve been so grateful.” (10:41)

“A common theme I’ve seen is the idea that ‘if you grow it, they will come’ is not a reality, unfortunately.  You need to sell your food and then grow it. So, if I had one piece of advice for anyone looking to get into this is know your market and know where your food’s going, because we’re working with a perishable.” (15:23))

“I saw some of the most amazing ingenuity by a lot of these growers. And I saw people prosper that you might not expect because they pivoted.” (17:57)

“I like aquaponics. I fell in love with it because of the idea of it and the closed loop, but it’s a tough one.” (26:51)

“When working with anyone in sales I think it’s really about trust and fostering a relationship. And if you can develop a friendship out of it, more power to ya.” (33:45)

“If I was gonna give any advice to someone starting a podcast it would be to remember who your podcast is about. It’s not about you, it’s about your guest and shedding the spotlight on that guest.” (38:59)

Links Mentioned

Ponic Jobs Website

Kyle’s Podcast

Kyle’s LinkedIn

Farm Tech Society

CropWalk Website

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Thursday, we grow all the food and we harvest it Monday through Thursday.

And then on Friday, we compost all of what we harvested all week long.

And so that, that's a common theme I've seen is, is the idea that if

you grow it, they will come is not a reality. Unfortunately, you need

to sell your food and then grow it and set up your

distribution network. So if I had any, like, Really, just one

piece of advice for anyone looking to get into this is know your market, know

where your food's going, because we're working with a perishable.

Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations with

fascinating CEOs, Founders, and agtech visionaries.

Join us every week as we dive deep into the world of vertical

farming with your host, Harry

Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast, Season 2. Welcome

back. If this is your first time listening, you are in the right place, as

this is the show where we interview fascinating CEOs and founders of the leading

vertical farming companies from around the world. I'm your host,

Harry Duran. In case you missed last week's show, I had a great

conversation with season 2 sponsor Ceres

Greenhouse Solutions founder Mark Plinke. A really

inspiring interview and conversation with Mark that's

generating a lot of great feedback. Mark is the consummate

inventor and passionate about all things supporting this

industry, and it was really fun to hear his

enthusiasm come through on that interview. So make sure you check that out.

Special thanks to our episode sponsor, Ceres Greenhouse Solutions. If

you're looking If you're looking for a greenhouse solution that will suit your specific climate

and growing goals, then talk to an expert from Ceres Greenhouse Solutions.

Ceres combines passive solar concepts, innovative climate control

technologies, and customized grow systems to ensure that their growers

are yielding the highest quality product year-round for the lowest operational cost.

Visit ceresgreenhousesolutions.com, that's spelled

C-E-R-E-S greenhouse solutions dot com, to learn more. Thank you.

This week I have the pleasure of speaking with Kyle Barnett. He's the founder of

Ponik Jobs and a co-host on the Crop Talk podcast.

He's also serving as an account manager in the horticulture division at WestRock,

focusing on helping growers create superior packaging labels and

merchandising solutions, which is something that's top of mind

for me anytime I have these conversations. In this episode, we discuss

the varying facets of ponics, from deep water culture and

NFTs to vertical farming and aquaponics. We talk about

the vital role distribution plays in the agtech industry and what inspired

Kyle to create the Pondic Jobs Well site, as well as his collaboration with

Crop Talk Media. His podcast segment, Kyle Talks Agtech, focuses on

CEA, vertical farms, greenhouse technology, and

other industry leaders. As a reminder, if you enjoyed this episode or past

episodes, I'd love it if you leave a rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

Let's get into this conversation with Kyle. So Kyle Barnett,

co-host of the Crop Talk podcast, specifically the

Kyle Talks AgTech feature, founder of panikjobs.com,

and also part of the WestRock team. Thank you so

much for joining us on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Harry, it's my

pleasure. Thanks for having me. It's a challenge to just put you

into one role with these intros, and I think that's what's going

to make this conversation so much more interesting because all the different

ways that you're interacting with the world of vertical farming,

agtech, and so it'll be a pretty wide-ranging discussion. So I'm

excited and don't know where it's going to end up, but I think it's going

to be a fun conversation. Yeah, absolutely. You know, my background is

eclectic within the industry, and that has really been my goal, is

to just get as much experience in all the different dimensions of controlled

ag as possible. So it's, it's been quite the fun and exciting journey, really

has. So can you talk a little bit about your

personal journey, and, and we'll deep dive into each of these as they come up.

up. But when, you know, if you could think back and trace back

your interest in, you know, controlled ag, where did that stem from?

Sure. So I've always had an interest in food

especially, and I went to the Culinary Institute of

America, and I was on this journey to become a chef.

And, you know, when I really started seeing that

I wanted to look more into farming, it was my senior year.

And, you You know, I just started seeing how a lot of my

influence to why I was cooking had to do with the farming and the growing

of the crops. And, you know, I did a final project where,

you know, I kind of recreated a garden with a dish. And then we were

choosing our final trip for the year. You get to go on this great

trip to explore food with the culinary. You can go to Spain,

you can go to France, you can go to Italy, and then you can go

to California. And let me tell you, Nobody wanted to go to California

compared to these global trips, but it was my first pick. And it was because

that was a very farming, agriculture,

horticulture-themed trip. And, you know, it was more of the

farm-to-table aspects. And so, you know, when I went out there for

3 weeks, it really was kind of as I graduate to become a chef, this

epiphany of, oh man, well, this is where my heart is, is growing the

food. It's so fascinating. So You know, it couldn't be an easy transition.

I, I cooked for a while, was a sous chef,

landed a fantastic job as a personal chef for a man

named Dan Collin, who was a modern artist in New York City. And he had

this farm art studio where I cooked. And when you

reach that fantastic point where you're like, this is it, this is an

amazing job, and I'm still not satisfied, that's when I really knew I

had to go and explore what my

calling seemingly was. So originally, I was, I was all

packed up to go and go to a berry farm, actually,

strawberry and blueberry farm. And I knew I wanted to go into

controlled ag, especially because of the seasonality aspect of

being able to have these great ingredients all throughout the year from a chef

mindset was amazing. So I'm all packed up, ready to

go on this apprenticeship. And Someone I had been

hassling and bothering, a local aquaponics facility, called me

the week before I was supposed to leave to my apprenticeship and said, oh, we

want to have you in, we want to talk to you. And I decided to

go down and I finally had this interview and they said, you can start

cleaning the greenhouse for us and hosting at farmers markets. And

so I canceled the apprenticeship because I knew that's

where my heart was. And I joined this aquaponics facility.

which unfortunately wasn't really well put together. And, uh, it was my

first learning exercise of, of really seeing how it can go wrong

within the industry. So there was a lot of mistakes made

and it didn't go too well. They went bankrupt. They had a lot of funding,

but it didn't end up well. So from there, I moved to an outdoor

organic farm for a few months. And, uh, I had a friend from

Continental Organics, this aquaponic place. I had a friend who

joined Bright Farms, which was this— Oh yeah. One, yeah, one greenhouse at the

time. just this up-and-coming grow facility.

And I called him and said, hey, you know, how can you get me in

there? Can I? And he said, well, you know, I can get you a day

to work here and we can see, you know. And he was, you know, labor

force. And so I— my girlfriend at the time, now

wife, was going to college at Rider University, and I, I stayed with

her for a, uh, a day, and I worked 12-hour

shifts. And they said, hey, we love you, but we have no openings. I said,

okay, call me if anything comes up. And they called a week later

and offered me, you know, an apprenticeship sort of

position, but it was really just a labor job. Yeah. And anyone that

works in more of these commercial grow facilities knows it kind of—

labor is the key word. It's, it's a lot of hard work. And, uh,

yeah, from there I really tried to prove myself to the company.

And, uh, you know, I started working on side projects of

showcasing different ideas and things and ways we could improve and just really tried to

go above and beyond for the team. And, uh, yeah, and a key

account manager position opened up as they started to expand to

Washington, DC, as they were building another greenhouse. So I took that

position and yeah, I started in the corporate circle from there.

And for 2 and a half years, I sold lettuce greens

to grocery stores and different distribution channels and

helped perfect the system. And I love BrightFarms, still have a great

relationship and Another opportunity came up after,

I would say, 3 years or so with Bright Farms for a company called

Hort Americas. And they had a— they were looking

to open up the Northeast to sales of substrates,

fertilizers, LED lighting. And, uh, and I

took the position, and it was a very entrepreneurial open up this

territory. And, uh, you know, it was great. It was a great experience. It

really is where I gained a lot of perspective on all the different

players in the field. I got to visit a whole ton of vertical farms. I've

seen places, you know, grow up. I've seen them crash and

burn. I've helped solve their problems. And, you know, I was able to sell a

lot of LED lighting to some of the bigger growers now

and help develop their full systems. So, uh, great

experience. And just in July, I

joined WestRock as account management

towards, uh, horticulture and really trying to develop out

sustainable packaging solutions for controlled

ag or conventional growers. And

it's been great so far, really trying to uncover all these different

packaging solutions we can find for, let's say, these

big hunks of plastic that are used in produce. So when I left

HortAmericas and I told all my connections where I was going, that's the number one

thing they said. They said, you got to find us, get rid of the plastic,

get rid of the plastic. So during my time at HortAmericas as

well, I joined Crop Talk. A good friend of mine, Charlie McKenzie,

was starting Crop Talk Media. And he wanted to have

a range of hosts, and I was the first host to come on.

And my segment was Kyle Talks AgTech. And it

was— it's been great. I've had over 35 episodes now.

And it's really given me a lot of clarity into,

you know, what the industry needs and some really great ideas. So,

you know, as I said in the beginning, it's been an eclectic journey, but I

am So grateful. So grateful for the whole

process and everything that I've been able to, you know, learn

from it and been able to assist the industry as well. That's a

fantastic story and a long ways from the Coloring

Institute of America, which is in upstate New York. I grew up in

Yonkers. Oh, okay. So we're basically neighbors. I was in,

you know, LaGrangeville, Poughkeepsie area growing up, so. And I

went to high school in White Plains. Okay, yeah. Catholic high school there.

I live in Minneapolis now, so— Oh, wow. But I've just been

here for about a year and a half, but I've lived in New York and

in LA, and now I'm in the Midwest. So it's been interesting to see the

differences in regions. But I did— it's a funny story about

Culinary Institute of America. I had never been, and I've always wanted to go. My

parents love, you know, like going there, and they've had lunch there. Oh, it's

fun. It's fun. And the one time I was there visiting last year, they're like,

let's go. And I'm like, oh, I'm so excited. We didn't bother to check if

it was open, so we drove all the way there. I've made the same mistake,

and I've gone to the school. I really have. I brought my wife, I'm like,

hey, we're gonna go, and, you know, Sundays are off limits, and

that's unheard of in the restaurant industry, you know. But, uh,

yeah, I've been there before. Yes, that's fun. So it's interesting,

like, what was it that drive in you that kept

changing and kept having you pursue, like, you know, first, you know, with the

work you were doing with Bright Farms and then Hoard America, and

even like this idea to work in like a controlled

agriculture environment. If you had to describe what that pull was

about, you know, what was attracting you to work in those types of jobs?

Yeah, I think it was the chef at heart for 2 reasons

especially. One being that the seasonality was always this

issue with, you know, you get a tomato in

December and you want it to be local, it's— no, it's going to

be from Mexico. You're going to cut it, it's going to be tasteless, white in

the inside, no flavor. You know, when I started at

Continental Organics, they had a tomato house up there and the tomatoes were

just out of this world in December. Amazing, you know, and, and

really special flavor. And that's, you know, the

seasonality aspect. But, you know, the second part of that was, you

know, how special the flavors were, you know, not only of tomato but of all

these microgreens and these different crops. When you, you know, and it's— yes,

you can talk about it as controlled ag or just conventional farming. When you pull

something out of the ground and immediately consume it. It's special. And

so much of what we eat, we know like these basic flavors, but then when

you start to try all these different microgreens and,

oh man, this one tastes like wasabi and this one tastes like a Sour

Patch Kid and this one tastes like a blend of Indian spices.

It's, it's so special. It's such an experience. And

that's what, you know, the foodie in me was always interested in was the experience

and, you know, enabling these chefs and these past friends that I've had to

be able to you know, expand their, you know, metaphorical

palette of colors and be able to express

themselves with the, you know, the lemon balm

basil and a new whole new dimension. It was really

special. So that was— pulled me into the space was,

you know, seasonality first and flavor second. And then

as you started to— so that was the— that's really like the chef in you

and then understanding the importance of flavor. And then you move into

Seeing, you know, the actual operations of these

companies and even the couple that you've mentioned that, you know, tried and failed.

Once you were on the inside, for people that don't have that opportunity

to work in some of these companies, if you could place your finger on,

you know, from what you've seen some of these places succeed or why they

don't, like what are they getting right and where sort of are they

going off the rails and not succeeding? Yeah. Yeah, there's

all sorts of different metrics and, you know, things that I

can discuss, but the one that I hold dear to my heart, it also has

to do with, you know, my personal mission is, you know, so I can

go back to my initial experience at Continental

Organics and the issue was, and it's a terrible joke I make, is

Monday through Thursday, or let's say, yeah, Monday through Thursday where

we grow all the food and we harvest it Monday through Thursday and then on

Friday we compost. all of what we harvested all week long. And

so that, that's a common theme I've seen is, is the idea that if you

grow it, they will come. It's not a reality. Unfortunately, you need

to sell your food and then grow it and set up your distribution

network. So if I had any, like, really just one piece of

advice for anyone looking to get into this is know your market, know where your

food's going, because we're working with a perishable. And,

you know, an old boss of mine came in and he said, this place looks

beautiful. Look at all the crops growing, everything. This is

amazing. and everything was ready to harvest at the same time in

like an NFT greenhouse. So that's a— that wasn't necessarily a good thing

because then we didn't have the hands to harvest it all and it— and we

didn't have anywhere for it to go. So it ended up— I have a picture

of a past friend of mine up to his neck in, uh, Bibbhead

lettuce just that was in the compost bin. Oh. So, you know, you

have to really, you know, the art of growing is

one aspect of this, but distribution is a really

big piece of the equation as well. Yes, it reminds me of the

conversation I had with, um, Eddie Badrina. He's Eden Green, about

this idea of product-market fit. And, you know, he comes from a marketing background, so

he thinks about that from day one. And I think when he started working with

the team there, it was— that's where his mind works right away. And I think

a lot of the people who get into it, you know, for some of the

reasons you've talked about, they have a passion for, you know, fresh produce. And, and

then you need to have the business skills as well and

understanding marketing as well and all the different pieces that

are— that make up successful business. And I think a

lot of people that are getting started don't think about that. But I think— I

don't know if you could speak to this, but do you feel like now there

is more of an awareness that all the pieces need to be in place? Because

I think what we saw with COVID is, is in fact examples of

just how unstable this supply chain was, right? And,

and you could have, you know, the stories of these potatoes being buried

and like megaton, you know, whatever the measurement was. But— and this is all over

the world. So highlights the, you know, how

not mature, unstable, whatever word you want to use, the supply chain

was. Because if— what good's having all this produce that we're growing and

not able to get it into the hands and mouths of the people that, that

need it and want it? Yeah, and it was unfortunate. You know, I was still

at Hort Americas when COVID originally hit, and, uh,

you know, I unfortunately watched some of the maybe small to medium vertical farms

that I was working with, they didn't survive because they— 100% of

their business, let's say they're focused on microgreens, was restaurants. But you

know what's funny about it is I also, on the flip

side, saw some of the most amazing ingenuity

by a lot of these growers. And I saw people prosper that you might not

expect because they pivoted. And I think that's such an important thing

to remember when growing and when owning any company, or

if you have the entrepreneurial spirit. You have to be ready to pivot at

the flip of a coin. And you know what they did is they—

okay, well, Restaurants are closed, but people are still eating and people

still want to get these things and maybe they're cooking more. So now all of

a sudden they, they go from more of a restaurant way of

doing things or restaurant distribution to all of a sudden they're residential and they're

delivering their own local boxes. And I've seen some really great

success stories through this. Just, you know, I know Fresh

Impact Farms in Washington, DC, they seem to be doing great now, you know,

and, and Ryan was able to take this business and, you

and pivot it accordingly and make it work. And I think that if

you— if when tough times come with COVID and you

just expect to be, you know, I'm just going to keep doing the same thing

and hope that it gets better, then, you know, not to be

harsh, but maybe entrepreneurial, you know, roles is not—

maybe you shouldn't do that, or you should change and be more ready for that

pivot. So, you know, it's— yes, it's been really tough on our

industry, but the whole thing with COVID is it's also shed a really nice

spotlight on vertical farming as well, where Now people are maybe a bit

more concerned about food security or locality with ingredients

or distribution. And now, you know, I think that it's

also kind of been the spark for the industry, which is exciting to see.

Yeah, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again expecting a

different result, right? Yep. Yeah, and it's, it's, it's— and as

an entrepreneur myself, I can relate to this idea of really

figuring out like Am I going to survive? What do I need to

change? Or what preconceived notions do I have about what I used to do that

are completely out of the window? New industries have been created, new

ways of doing business, people pivoting into something that ended

up being long-term or just something that they had to do short-term just to survive.

And I think it really kicks in this drive, a little bit of the

survival of the fittest, but also just thinking like, I don't want to be out

of business and I need to try something different. Yeah. And being open to trying

things that may or may not work. And I think that speaks to you know,

that entrepreneurial mindset of just, you know, the, the Wayne Gretzky analogy,

uh, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So—

Yep, yep. I have it on my wall over there, actually. It's a

Michael Scott quote by Wayne Gretzky from The Office, so it's an

inside joke. But yeah, no, I, I love that quote. And, uh,

yeah, it's very true. Can you talk a little bit about the work you,

you did with the PharmTech Society? I'm curious. I haven't heard about that

organization, and I'm wondering if there's anything you learned about Just bigger picture,

how the industry works or insights from there? Sure,

yeah. So the FarmTech Society is really trying to bridge together a lot

of, you know, just vertical farming in the industry.

They're in the European market and they're focused on the US as well, but

they've, you know, they're really trying to just

define these systems in place, you know, catalog things

accordingly, organize the industry. Because, you know, right

now there's a lot of moving pieces. And, you know, I think the goal

is to have a central hub, you know, to be able to rely on things

from, you know, certain certifications to HR,

to connections to products to all of these moving pieces.

You know, it's so scattered, unfortunately, but it's because the industry is in such infancy

right now. So, you know, the big goal being that we can kind of

create this hub. A lot of different resources that will,

you know, help vertical farms and the like prosper. And you're still

with that organization? You're still consulting with them, advising? Yeah, I—

there's another— the Center of Excellence for

Indoor Ag is another one in, uh, it's in

Philadelphia. And, uh, you know, it's a way to learn right now and give

back is just these advisory roles as, you know, they, they need any

information And, uh, you know, it's, it's fun. It's a fun industry to

just kind of explore solutions collectively. So I really enjoy the

work I'm doing with the advisory roles. Do you think— is there— there's

probably a whole slew of organizations, associations

that are looking to improve, like, you know, for the betterment of agtech.

And the other thing that's interesting is all the terminology, because there's controlled

ag, there's indoor ag, there's agtech, there's vertical farming.

Yeah. And I'm wondering, in your role as advisor, if you come

across some of these interesting ways of Like people trying to

pigeonhole what it is that you're working on and if there's any confusion sometimes.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, terminology can be tricky because everyone has their own

language. And I've been corrected with things like, don't call

it deep water culture, or don't call it NFT, or don't

call it this. And I've given up personally. I think you

understand what I'm saying and that's the purpose of words. If you

understand what I'm saying, and obviously there will be refinement over time and

that's important, You know, I've separated, okay, vertical farm, vertical

stacked indoors for the most part, indoor farm,

non-vertical, you know, single plane greenhouse is

a greenhouse, you know, and, and I think words can

be dangerous because they can overcomplicate, but at the same time

we need to pay attention so we're not watering ourselves

down, you know? Yeah. And, and, and not becoming clear.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. What's NFT? Nutrient film

technique. Okay. So it's like the Crop King or American

Hydroponic long trays, and there's a very

thin little hose at the end that dribbles in water.

And then deep water culture is floating rafts. And imagine

like an Olympic-sized pool and you have these Styrofoam floating

rafts. And, you know, that's, that's the bulk of my experience was with those

2 systems. But But there's all sorts of systems

out there. Aeroponic. Yeah. And aeroponic just being

that fine mist. And I like aeroponics. I'm always

scared if the security measures, and maybe they've improved that, but if your

system shuts down for an allotment of time,

it's kind of like you have the most security with deep water culture, and then

you have less security with NFT, and then you have even less security

with aeroponics. So I've always joked that, well,

maybe in an environment like space where, hey, if the power goes out, you're in

way bigger trouble than your plants. So aeroponics could be, you

know, really good. You know, it would, and it consumes the less amount of, the

least amount of water as well. So there's all these pros and cons to

every system out there. Some have more cons than others, but

what seems to be a specific niche that's

attracted your attention because you have the, the site you've created called

ponikjobs.com, right? So I'm wondering, can we go

down a little bit of a ponik rabbit hole, if you will, and

describe like, you know, some of the benefits and all the different systems? Because it—

people just initially think of hydroponic and aeroponic, but I'm wondering if there's others that

people may not be as aware of. Yeah, and I'll just quickly—

Ponik Jobs, it's a free recruitment. I just— I've put it out there. I'm working

on, you know, transforming it to

growerrekrute.com and maybe adding other

industries into it. But for now, it's Ponic Jobs. And that was really created

because of my challenges to get into the space. I mean, to

even get that— before they called me at Continental Organics, I

was hanging around their lobby. I filled out a couple resumes, I followed up, followed

up, followed up, and gave up, you know. And it was one of those where

I never want to— don't ever quit, don't ever, you know, give up. But at

this point, I was ready to give up. So I wanted to when I

was looking for jobs in control dag, I couldn't find any type of board. So

I was like, hey, well, if you can't find it, create it. And that that's

really where where that came. And you know, you can list your resume and

and you know there's active jobs on there. And I invite anyone to list

any positions they have just to get that much more exposure for free on there

for the time being. To go through hydroponics, yeah, I mean,

it's the three systems that I know that we talked about: NFT, deep

water culture, vertical farming, which can. integrate, you know, different

ways of each of those systems in vertical farming. You know, there's

aquaponics, which I spoke about before, which is using fishery

and using a lot of the fish waste to be the nutrient base for

what you're growing. It's, it's probably the biggest challenge. It's the hardest, I

think, out of a lot of these different ponics, let's call them.

It's challenging to grow fish and plants you need. It's

perfecting 2 different systems. Yeah, it seems like a lot of moving parts there.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so I

like aquaponics. I fell in love with it because of the idea of it and

the closed loop, but it's a tough one. Very, very

tough. You know, unless you're growing microgreens and really not focused as

much on the fish and it's the fish are just about fuel. I've seen that

being done in New York City successfully, but

that's a challenge. And then the other types? Let's

see. Yeah, I mean, aeroponics, aquaponics,

hydroponics, you know, that You know, I know there's all these

different systems as well. You have, you know, ZipGrow towers, you have tower

gardens, and a lot of them, like, technically, you know, when you look at a,

uh, a lot of these are just kind of the NFT technology

just retrofitted in, you know, it's that nutrient film. So it's a light

film of water, more or less. So, you know, it

seems complicated, but it's not once you can break it down and, and

see that kind of, there's these baseline systems. Mm-hmm.

Maybe You know, Dutch bucket system for more of the vine crops that,

you know, you can actually, you know, use a perlite or a coco

base, you know. And then you really have the other systems I discussed,

and they're kind of tiered down from there into different ways of growing.

Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think, as with every other industry, and you'll

probably see this in the nature of the jobs at some point that get posted,

they'll start to look for specifics. You know, we need someone who has a specialty

in aeroponics, or— I'd never even heard the term Dutch bucket before. So that's—

yeah, always learning something new on this show. Yeah. And, you

know, it's a lot of the postings I see

on the website, unfortunately, the talent's not there yet.

So the industry, if you have like a, a very

experienced hydroponic grower, they're heavily sought after, you

know. And I know certain

growers can fetch, you know, $200,000,

$250,000 salary for, you know, really

running large facilities. And the talent's so spotty

right now that that's what I think the industry also needs so

badly is training and development of

this talent because there's a high demand for it is

the bottom line. There's a high demand for

experienced growers, but I've listened to

your other podcasts, Harry, and everyone touches on the retiring

farmers and it's a real thing. So

I'm excited to see how we can train up and educate and

refine out the future of master growers. Yeah, it's

interesting because it even— not even just in vertical farming, because I hear,

you know, one of the jobs that's high in demand is data scientists, you know.

So, and this is related to some of what some of the bigger companies are

doing in the vertical farming space, but also bigger picture, other industries.

And I think there's, you know, when you think about careers that

kids in school aspire to, or they want to know, it's no longer— it's not

as easy as the astronaut and the fireman and the policeman anymore. Yeah.

And, and I don't think— and I think to your point, there's some value in

educating kids when they're

young and in school that there's a whole

wealth of range of possibilities available in terms of what you can

do and in line with what you did in terms of following your passion. Like,

you like food and so that sort of started you down the chef path, but

nurturing that interest in kids at an early age

and by— Yeah. Opening them up to like what is possible. You can follow your

passion. You can do something related to having that hands-on

connection with, with your food. And I think the more of that we have, I

think the better. Yeah, and I, I completely agree. I'm happy you bring

up like the younger education. You know, I, I didn't really have any

knowledge of this until later in life. And, uh, you

know, I see a lot of, uh, really great organizations are

now really trying to get kids interested in, in

controlled ag or growing in urban environments now, which

is really special. And when I was at Bright Farms, I My

wife was, uh, she was teaching a classroom and, uh,

and she needed to bring in a guest speaker. It's kindergarten class. And, uh,

she said, why don't you come in and talk about hydroponics? You know, it's—

and it was a lot of fun because the kids were— I just remember being

like, with hydroponics, you know, and, and this is, gosh, 6

years ago or so now. So I come into the classroom in a suit that

doesn't fit and I got these big, big, uh, you know,

poster boards of images that I, I took from, uh, Bright

Farms. And, you know, I said, oh, you can grow

anywhere with hydroponics. And they're, anywhere? And then they just

start, in Antarctica, on the moon, and like

just getting so, oh man, you can grow food anywhere. And, you know, kids are

so excitable. And— Yeah. They were, you know, and they did a— we did a

little project where, you know, cut a t-shirt and you put some grass seed

on it and you watered it and they see, oh, wow, all it needed was

the water and the— so, you know,

it's important. It really is to get them when they're young, get them

interested because that's how we're going to, you know,

create the next working professionals in this industry.

Yeah. And it's so funny because when you think about it, you hear the stories

of kids who like— there could very well have been someone in that classroom

who just like remembers that as a pivotal moment to say like, whoa, just like

lights the spark and says— Absolutely. I find this fascinating.

I'm gonna like, you know, their natural curiosity and sometimes feeding that

curiosity at that right moment when they're like fertile minds

or just open to possibilities, I think is really important. So that's— I'm sure you

had an impact that day. I hope at least, you know, maybe one

kid will, you know, look at it later on and, you know, at the

least it was fun. And, you know, we just got to keep doing things like

that, setting up these classroom systems and whatnot.

So along the lines of educating people to the topic of

vertical farming, how did you get connected with the folks at

CropTalk? And were you listening to podcasts already? Were you active listener? Like,

what's the story behind there? Yeah, so Charlie was actually a

customer of mine at Hort Americas. So, you know, we

were selling a system, 30 MHz sensors.

So it was a way that you could, you know, really get

microclimate readings, airflow, humidity,

all these different metrics via these tiny sensors. And he was starting

to do some consulting for CropWalk, which is

a great company I highly recommend if you're looking for integrated pest

management consulting. And he was starting to do

some, you know, work, and he wanted to be able to do these readings remotely.

And so we worked on that, we looked at these things grow

racks that he was looking at that are just, you know, mini

vertical farm units, you know, on like a grow cart.

And, uh, we hit it off, you know. It's just sometimes I, when

working with anyone in sales, you know, I think it's really about trust and fostering

a relationship. And if you can develop a friend out of it, you know, power

to you. So we continued to talk, and,

you know, one day he called me and was like, you know, I was thinking,

Kyle, like, you're You know, you know a lot about this industry. I want to

expand out this segment, like, and I— let's do it. And

we immediately, you know, started rocking and rolling. And,

you know, we didn't have my segment quite lined up. My first guest was a

hemp grower, the Hemp Mine, and really knowledgeable, but I

didn't necessarily have the same education on everything he was talking about. So

we— hey, let's focus on what you're good at and what you know. And,

you know, Kyle Talks AgTech, it feels like such an ego-based name. You

know, now that I, I'm like, okay, it was just because it was like, it

was like Talk Crops and Charlie Talks Crops and then Kyle

Talks Crops and then it was Kyle Talks AgTech. And I almost wish

I chose a name more like Vertical Farming Podcast like

yourself. But, uh, yeah, and it just, I was able to go

after a lot of these people I've worked with at HortAmerica, you know, selling

them substrates, fertilizers, lighting, different tools,

all these different tools. I was able to say, hey, I'm doing this podcast. You

know, I know what you're doing. It's really cool. Why don't you come on? And,

you know, it progressed from there. And once COVID hit, I was doing like 2

a week, just shooting them out, you know, as a way to just

make people keep their sanity, keep myself busy during a

slow time. Yeah. And it's been a lot of

fun, you know. And what's cool, and I think you can probably say you've

experienced this, is you start to see these

these connections with like, oh, wow, everyone seems to touch on this

fact. Mm-hmm. Everyone talks about, hey, you need to get

hands-on experience before you do this, or, hey, make

sure to network within or educate yourself

with all— it's all these different things you start to

see connections with when I was trying to speak to CEA

leaders. And so for me, it was so helpful. To

just see all these different connections of, you know, at the end of the day,

what's the bullet points? What's most important to succeeding

in such a young industry? Yeah, and it's— and you're learning along

the way as well because, you know, they all come in with their different perspectives,

their different history, and their different takes on the industry.

And, you know, I've said this a couple of times on the show, it's almost—

I'm learning along with the listener as well. So I have this natural curiosity,

natural interest in the topic. And bringing on a wide range of

voices is really important for me and people that are covering it from different angles

because I always say you could have 5 people doing the same topic, let's

say 5 people covering vertical farming, 5 different hosts.

After about 3 months, 6 months, you'll have 5

different shows because it's just like everyone is just their own

personal lived experiences and their specific interests will take them

down different rabbit holes. And so you end up, which I think is all great

too. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, we— I know some of the other hosts

have done kind of these crop debates where it's like 2 separate

opinions and, and bringing them together.

You know, one was about bees, I believe, by Robert, and

he did one about bees and, you know, are— is bee

farming good for the environment or bad? And you kind of bring— and he did

that well. And I, I was like, man, I think about doing that with vertical

farming. But some of the opinions are so strong. I'm like, I don't know if

I'll be You have to be able to be a good mediator with, you know,

like it's— there's a lot of passion in the industry

and it's true, you get kind of two sides a lot of times and

people are impassioned in this space, which is, I think it makes it

a lot more fun, is the level of passion here. What's

interesting about having this discussion with you, because this is the first time

I'm having someone who's not directly like a founder

or a CEO of a vertical farming company, but with all the

different roles you've had in the industry, I was really excited to have this conversation.

But the other thing is, and the listener may not be aware of, but I

started this show because I own a podcast production company

called Fullcast and we produce shows for clients. But I also am the host of

another show called Podcast Junkies that I started in 2014.

It's a bit meta. It's a podcast where I interview other podcasters.

I'll have to come on that one after this. That's the

Seinfeld, the Kramer coffee table book about coffee tables.

You know, I always use that example. But it's been fascinating because

I always am interested in the topic of podcasting. So now it's like all these,

like the Venn diagram of the worlds converging on this episode

is really interesting. So I'm curious, was

podcasting, hosting new to you? And what have you learned and

how have you improved as a host? Oh God. That's such a great question because

I've learned a lot. I think I talked too much originally,

you know, I can admit it, you know, I can be vulnerable enough to say,

hey, you know, I think I talked too much when I started and I've

got better at letting the host really take the reins and

not needing to insert my knowledge or what I know or this or that. And

hey, this is, you know, I guess if I was going to give any advice

to someone starting a podcast is remember who who your podcast is about,

and it's not about you. It's about your guests, and it's about shedding

the spotlight on that guest and, you know, really

making it all about them, you know. And obviously you want to have a conversation

and you want to, you know, say, hey, you know, I experienced something similar,

you know. The back and forth is, is very important to, you

know, a natural podcast episode, but you got to let

them speak. You know, I don't think challenging anyone

necessarily, making them uncomfortable. I mean, that's not what it's

about. You know, you can talk about opinions

with specific guests in each of these different, you know, areas, but you

shouldn't necessarily like make someone look bad or something like that. So,

and obviously all the production issues, the

echoes, the knowing, you know,

not to have the cat scratching at the door or the wife vacuuming or anything

like that, you know, just, uh, keep it going. Yeah.

What's funny is, uh, because of COVID it's been the

great equalizer. And some of the best conversations I've had recently

on the show have been with CEOs and founders who, you know, for lack

of a better, you know, situation, everyone's at home. Like, and

so it's, it's, it just shows that we're all human. And, you know,

you can tell that some of these folks are like in their kitchen or in

their kid's bedroom or something like, and looking for a quiet environment.

And it humanizes everyone. And I think— Yeah. especially when, you know, people think if

you're talking to like the CEO of a, you know, multi-billion dollar company,

like that they think differently. But I think they experience some of the same,

you know, challenges that we all do. Yeah. And I think what's

been reassuring is they all have their heart in the right place of wanting

to see this industry grow, get more visibility. And,

you know, there's no shortage of money coming into the industry as we've all seen

as well. So I think it's— I feel like it's that rising tide lifts all

boats. boats metaphor. Yeah, yeah. And even the

CEOs have the dog that barks in the background or the kid that runs

into the room. Yeah. Yeah. What's been

things you've learned as a result of having these discussions? Because you start to bring

in these different viewpoints, and, you know, what are you learning

about the industry that has you excited? Yeah, you know, it's— you definitely

learn how young it is but how much potential it has.

And, you know, it's fun to have on grounded people, and it's fun to

have on dreamers. And I think there's a— like, I'm reminded

often with guests to don't limit

anything, you know. In the '60s, the cell phone that we

have nowadays would have been outrageous.

Not— that's just— Oh yeah. Stop thinking like that, you know. Or,

you know, you can even say the '80s, you know, 40 years ago,

1981, you know, that was, uh, nobody would

have— you're out of your mind with how things are done. So you can't

if you're going to predict the future, it shouldn't be a limited prediction. And that's

something I'm reminded of when I speak to a younger audience. And also,

you know, I think that one of the biggest lessons is we have to continually

try to work together in this industry and not silo ourselves off.

It's a constant theme that I hear from lots of guests on how,

you know, especially in the North American market, we're siloing

ourselves and potentially making the same mistakes. Of course, there's

You have to understand why that's being done and you're protecting your

assets and all of this, but still, we

need to communicate as best we can. I know in the

Netherlands, the Dutch are much better at critiquing

and communicating about

improving the overall system. Mhm. So I think there's a lot

we can learn from how other established markets

at least from a growing side, are doing it. Have you been able

prior, or were you able prior to the pandemic to make it to some of

these conferences and events?

I tried so hard to get to GreenTech,

the big one overseas, and unfortunately, I was potentially gonna

go the year that everything happened, but yeah,

unfortunately it didn't happen. I wish I could

show you, I have this box of tags from all the conferences that I've

gone to. I loved conferences. Conferences, you know, Indoor AgCon,

Cultivate, MANCE, you know, from the old-fashioned to the new

age, you know, these Brooklyn AgTech summits. I really tried to,

you know, attend, you know, as many as I could, a couple a month if

I could, you know, before COVID So it's, it's really been a

transition. I've done a— I did a trade show this week, a

trade show, I'm putting quotes in the air, and it's different, you know,

to do these big conferences. And now it's a Lister And maybe you have a

video. It's the same. It's not the same. I don't

think it's as beneficial, but I think we're continually as an industry going to

find ways to keep the ball rolling, to keep the communication up, the

networking moving. I'm waiting for the VR glasses

that will let me go into a virtual trade show where I

actually can virtually see other people. But I think, I think we're a little

bit ways off from that one. It's so funny because you mentioned that

one thing I do miss is playing poker with my buddies, especially the

ones back in New York. And I've been looking into the Oculus VR

goggles, and the company PokerStars actually

has a virtual reality game. That's cool. So that would be interesting. And

all these industries are going to have— I think they've just mentioned that

the 360-degree treadmill, virtual treadmill, is now

functioning. So you have the goggles on and you could move in

360 degrees. I'm a big fan. I have the PS I have a

Quest VR which is in a box right now. I haven't had the time to

hook it all up and it's like a roller coaster ride. I have to take

a motion sickness pill before I get in that thing. Yeah. But, I

think that the whole VR experience could potentially—

I mean, it's going to affect, in my opinion, all industries, especially

through something like this in good time. But, I think from vertical farming

even, it would be great to put on a headset and go in the treadmill

and walk through someone's greenhouse when they're doing the same thing, you know.

However, but, you know, I think a little bit of ways

away, but I would love to be able to find some way to do something

a bit more, you know, with a little bit more virtual

substance. Immersive experiences. Yeah, there you go.

So I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about the

work you're doing, or that WestRock is doing, for those that may not be aware

what the company is and what they specialize in. Sure. So, you

know, WestRock is especially focused right now on sustainable

packaging solutions, and we're really trying to

develop unique, creative, empowering

solutions for every aspect of every industry.

My particular division is MPS Horticulture,

and, you know, we sell a lot of the labels and

tags and things like that to all the big floriculture growers.

And what I'm excited to start to uncover is

solutions for produce growers. You know, there, the, as I said

early on, like when I spoke and told the friends and connections I had where

I'm going, they said, oh, you gotta get us a, a solution to this. Yeah.

Yeah. Plastic clamshell. And it's, it's, you know,

everyone in our industry or a good percentage are so focused

on sustainability and care for the world and really trying trying

to do the right thing and then we're loading our leafy greens or

our tomatoes into these plastic tubs. Yeah. So if we can

find a more recyclable, you know, system,

something that is, you know, biodegradable within

18 months or breaks down much easier, you know, it's

such a win. So, you know, I joined WestRock to really gain that

experience and hopefully be able to assist in developing these

type of solutions because, you know, a grower might—

it might cost them a nickel to grow a head of lettuce, but their clamshell

might cost 25 cents. So a

big portion of what they're paying goes into the packaging. And so

ideally, we want that to be a really sustainable, you know,

long-term mindset of the health of the

industry and the planet and everything. So, you know, I'm

really proud to be a part of WestRock. They are extremely

socially conscious and really focused. If I had a

word for their attitude towards the future, it's sustainability.

They're looking for, you know, really as many

alternatives to plastic in every industry you can imagine

as possible and finding these really, you know, more caring

approaches. So it's great. Yeah, I think that's what was interesting for

me as I was learning more about this industry is that the

dichotomy between like people who obviously care about the

importance of the environment and having this connection with the

food and local access to food, which then sort

of flies in the face of like what, by virtue of doing that and getting

all this food to people that need it, you are contributing

to the problem of more plastic in the environment. And it's something that I've always

thought about. Yeah. And it's so great to see WestRock having this

as a focus because it feels like if you can crack that nut and come

up with some options and they may not be Yeah, and I think that's going

to be helpful from a price perspective early on, but as with all technologies and

all things, the first versions are not the ones where we're going to end

up at, but I think having some of these bigger farms

look at that as something that's important for them is going to be key.

Yeah, and really when I look at my goal of developing out

these maybe more non-plastic clamshells or

all these Styrofoam containers Styrofoam replacements, you know, for mushrooms or whatever

it is, you know, the new market, the new consumer that's really starting to gain

the buying power, the millennial audience, they're very focused

on this, you know, responsible purchasing power that they

have. And they, they, they don't want to buy the plastic tub. They

don't want to have to throw that into a landfill. They want to—

and I know when I shop, I'm willing to pay a little bit more.

And so You know, I think that, yeah, maybe initially these things

might not be quite as affordable of the— as the established market, but

at the end of the day, you know, they're going to set you apart from

your competition as someone that's more socially aware, you know,

planet conscious, and they're going to be a solution

that, you know, you can feel good about at the end of the day. And,

uh, and I think that comes from growers, as you said too. Not only is

it the end user is going to feel good, the The grower is going to

feel better about, you know, what their inputs and what they're putting

out into the marketplace. Yeah, totally agree. A couple

questions as we wrap up. What's a tough question you've had to ask

yourself recently or ask recently? Gosh. Oh

man, a tough question I had to ask myself.

You know, I would say, how much do I miss

hands-on? You know, I sometimes I miss hands-on and the tough question

is, oh, I'm behind a computer. All day, you know. That's a tough

question sometimes I ask myself. Like man, I'm behind a computer. Is

this where I'm supposed to be? But at the end of the day, you know,

you reflect back and you say, well, you know, I'm still I'm

assisting the people and I'm helping the industry and I'm I'm

doing a lot from this terminal and and I can feel good about

that at the end of the day. So, you know, the chef in me with

the knife or the farmer, you know. in the

greenhouse sometimes misses that. And that's the, the tough question of

like, man, should I be doing that? Should I be more

hands-on? You know, but, but I think at the end of the day, I'm saying,

hey, I'm helping those people. I'm assisting the industry. I'm

developing really great content. And, uh, you know, I feel good

about that at the end of the day. So that's my little, uh, you know,

back and forth I play with myself. I need to get a greenhouse in my

backyard someday. Yeah. to get that out of the system. Well,

I'll give a shout out and a plug to our episode sponsor series,

Greenhouse Solutions. They're creating, you know, personal— they've got the commercial

size, but they're also creating smaller versions that people can just

place in their own backyards. And they're more of a hybrid model that are a

little bit more advanced than a standard greenhouse. So actually, I just

finished an interview with Mark Plinke, the founder, and he talks

about the differences and what they're doing. So I'll make sure I'll let you

know when that episode goes live as well. I've met with the group

at trade shows in the past. It's a great, great

group, great company. Yeah, it's so interesting, this hands-on. And I mean,

I, I don't— always had dreams of being a chef as well. I never

pursued it. And so when you told me you had gone to CIA, I was

like, oh man, that's— and even now I'm like, I remember looking

last year, I'm like, how old is too old to study to be a

chef? That's never too old. That's, that's my attitude. But if you go to

that school, be ready for a handful of Gordon Ramsay I'll say that

much. It's intense.

So that's it. But I think I get my fill by watching Chef's Table on

Netflix. Oh yeah, absolutely. And

my wife's not a foodie, which everyone's like, I can't believe that. But she's—

and I'm making her slowly into a foodie, incorporating ingredients. I've

improved, but she'll watch those shows with me and we have a lot of fun.

So I'm at least happy about that. And then it's like a challenge. Like, can

I make something exotic that she'll enjoy? So I can always refine

the tools that way. I'm always looking for opportunities for the listener to

get to know their— the guests a little bit more. So is there a little-known

fact about you that most people don't know about? I would say I

probably talk too much about my culinary background.

So, gosh, I'm originally from New York. It's all boring

stuff. I'm probably too transparent is my issue, Harry, is I tell

everyone my life story when I meet That's good. Yeah, it's good and it's bad.

Some people like it more than others. What's interesting, Kyle, is I think that that's

how people relate and they find a point of reference which,

which to connect with you. And I think that's what I've been trying to do

on the show is just like let people know there's different ways that people can

make their way into the vertical farming industry. And I love

to hear your story because I've heard, you know, a lot of really good

ones. And I think it was Andrew Carter, and hopefully I've got it right, who

told me the story of— Yes, Mohold. Was he the one who had the

cello and he played it and it was for a wedding

and they asked him if he could play Daft Punk on the cello?

And he's like, that's silly, I'm not gonna do that. And a friend's like, of

course you're gonna do it, just give them a ridiculous price.

And he quoted them like $3,000 or something like that and the people

said yes. Oh man. And so he got the money and with that he bought

his first container farm. And so that, like— That's funny. And

I'll have to look into that and follow up if I've got the right person,

but I've had the interviews start to blur with each other. Oh, yeah. But

it's just one of those examples of just like there's no right way

to find your way into this industry. So I'm glad I was able to hear

your story and share that as well. Yeah. And if you want to get in

the industry, I mean, I'd say, you know, be prepared to get your hands

dirty and maybe do some unfun work for a little while. And you got to

make it fun. You know, you, you learn. And but I know, I, you know,

these long NFT trays, scrubbing them with bleach, and

it wasn't fun. Yeah. But, you know, I did it with a smile. And,

you know, I slowly worked my way up to managing that

greenhouse. And, you know, I think if you show dedication and you really

just hold true, it'll come. And you just got to be patient as well. But

yeah, I invite anyone to give it a shot and come into the industry.

So there's a couple different projects you're working on that we mentioned. So as we

wrap up, what's the best way for folks to, to stay engaged with you if

they want to follow up or just follow what you're doing? Sure. Connect with me

on LinkedIn, I think, is the number one way, because then we can really go

down whatever rabbit hole you want, whether it's, you know, Ponic Jobs,

Grower Recruit, or you want to talk about packaging

solutions via WestRock, or, you know,

advisory roles, or heck, you just want some advice. I talk too much and I

like talking to people. I love talking about this industry and it's

really a pay-it-forward mentality. So you can find me on

LinkedIn. I believe the backslash is BarnettKY, but

just search Kyle Barnett. Yeah, we'll have those. Yeah, we've got— I've got the link

and we'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. Yeah. All the

links you provided as well. And for the benefit of the listener, like that's exactly

how you and I connected and we just started a conversation. And, you know, I've

had some really great intros coming from LinkedIn. It's a

platform that I'm really active in on a daily basis.

So yeah. And so we'll make sure that people can reach you that way.

Yeah, now I'm happy we connected. I saw your podcast, I was like, this guy's

doing so much better than me, what the heck, I gotta connect with him now.

Well, I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks again for taking the time to come on.

All right, all right, thanks so much, Harry. Thanks again to Kyle for

providing such a lively discussion. It's a little different because normally we have a

founder or CEO on the show, and

Kyle has a wide Wide range of interests, and I think that's what made the

conversation all that much more interesting and engaging. So I really

appreciate him sharing his story and giving us some new insights

into the world of vertical farming. Special thanks to our episode sponsor, Ceres

Greenhouse Solutions. Ceres is creating sustainable growing

environments by combining smart design, innovative technology, and

dynamic partnerships. Learn more at

ceresgs.com. That's C-E-R-E-S-G-S.com.

If you enjoyed this episode or past episodes, I'd love it if you leave a

rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

We'll be sure to read them out on future episodes. Until we meet again

next week, here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To

read the full show notes for this episode, which includes any links

mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There you

can sign up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are

published.

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