In this episode of Stories on Facilitating Software Design and Architecture, we are joined by Paul Rayner, a seasoned consultant and expert in Domain-Driven Design and EventStorming. Paul shares a candid "war story" from his time as a tech lead that completely changed how he views leadership and influence. He recounts a well-intentioned refactoring session where he publicly critiqued a team member's code, aiming to teach better practices. The result was unexpected and severe: the developer felt shamed by the experience and quit shortly after.

This experience served as a harsh wake-up call about the "unseen authority" leaders wield and how easily the "blast radius" of our actions can damage team psychological safety, even when our motives are pure. Paul opens up about the "dominant blindness" that often affects technical leaders—where we fail to see how our rank amplifies our words, turning a simple suggestion into a crushing directive.

We dive deep into the power dynamics of technical leadership, exploring why simply having the "right" technical solution isn't enough. The conversation covers how to move from "fixing" people's work to facilitating their growth, why resistance should be treated as a valuable resource rather than an obstacle, and how methods like EventStorming can help externalize conflict.

Key Learning Points:

1. The Gap Between Intent and Impact: Why "I meant well" is never a sufficient excuse when a team member feels alienated or embarrassed by your actions.
2. Dominant Blindness: How leaders often underestimate the heavy weight of their rank and the pressure it puts on colleagues, especially when navigating contractor-employee dynamics.
3. Resistance is a Resource: Instead of pushing harder against pushback, view it as a signal to understand the underlying fears, threats, or misunderstandings driving the resistance.
4. Challenging Mental Models: Recognizing that when you criticize code, you are often challenging the deep-seated mental models and hard work of the person who wrote it.
5. Externalizing the Problem: How using visual tools like sticky notes (e.g., in EventStorming) can shift the focus from "me vs. you" to a collaborative discussion about the problem on the wall.

Hello and welcome to Stories on facilitating

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Software Design and Architecture.

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today we're here with our

guest, Paul, who will introduce

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himself in a, in a, in a minute.

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We're also here with, uh, the normal,

our normal crew, uh, which is of course,

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Kenny, Andrew, and myself, Andrea.

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So Paul, how about a little, a little

intro about who you are and what you do.

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Paul Rayner: Sure.

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Uh, I've been.

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Developer most of my career and consultant

more recently, over the last decade and

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a half, mostly specializing in domain

driven design and event storming.

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So I do training and

facilitation in those things.

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And then also probably more known

in the United States for starting

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the Explore DDD conference,

which runs in Denver every year.

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And uh, I'd give talks at conferences

and we're here in Melbourne.

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Just having wound up and taught an event

storming workshop together yesterday.

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Andrea Magnorsky: So,

which was really fun.

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It was really nice to work with

you in running this workshop.

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Thank you for, you know, working together.

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Um, so today, uh, Paul is

gonna share a story with us.

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so Paul is, what's, what's your story?

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Paul Rayner: Yeah, well, yeah.

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I was talking about this a bit

with Kenny and I think a good war

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story is maybe one that we could s.

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Lead off with.

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So, I was a kind of architect, architect,

tech lead on a project that, um.

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This was, I guess, late two thousands.

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Um, and I'd been working with a team.

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We had, uh, I was based in Colorado

where I am now, and we had developers in

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Chicago and also in, uh, Buenos Aires.

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And we were working on a

very complicated system.

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It was the first.

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System where I'd actually tried to

apply to domain driven design and test

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develop, test driven development and

a lot of these kinds of techniques.

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And, uh, I thought it would be a good

idea to get all the development team

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on a call and pick some code and, and

kind of talk through how to refactor

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code and how to improve it and make it

more expressive at the domain concepts.

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So we did that.

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I got, we got everyone on a

call and me as the tech lead.

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Um.

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You know, walk through, I'd pick

some code and, and just sort

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of started doing extract method

refactorings and showing how to do

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a bit of test driven development.

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And that, not long after that call,

one of the developers quit, and

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uh.

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I didn't know what I'd done, but

it, it should be pretty obvious.

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What I'd actually done is, um, one of

the contractors in our team in Chicago

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was actually the code that he'd written

and he felt very embarrassed and

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shamed by what I'd done because it of

implied to the rest of the team that

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the code that he'd been involved in

was not up to par and, and, uh, and so.

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I reached out to him and

apologized and, and then

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apologized to the rest of the team.

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And, uh, and fortunately he uncut came

back and, and, you know, was a, he had

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been a, a key team member and continued

to be a, a core team member and.

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And I remember at the time thinking

I was doing everything with the right

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intentions and you know, the right

motives, but I just had a complete lack

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of understanding, I think, of how that

would be perceived by the person that,

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that had done that and, and how my.

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Misuse of my power and authority actually

cause someone a lot of embarrassment and

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shame, even though it was unintentional.

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So, know, it, it was a real wake up call

for me about and, and, you know, being

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aware of other people and the power that I

wield and, and, and also how to go about.

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Cha changing hearts and minds and, and,

and, you know, coming alongside people

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to, uh, try to show different ways

of doing things instead of, you know.

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Taking an approach like I did, which

was clearly not a good way to go.

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So that's my war story.

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and I learned a lot that.

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And it doesn't mean I haven't

made mistakes since, but yeah,

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that was one of my bigger ones.

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Andrea Magnorsky: I, I think it's,

it's also that you're, you're

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talking about, um, not just.

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The practice and you know, we, I think

it's clear to see for us here, the, not

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just like the, the intention, but also,

uh, the, the, you're like, oh, the, the,

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you're, you're bringing to the force.

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Something that I think, uh, it's

a lot to do with decentralization,

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which is understanding power, uh,

and power dynamics in an organization

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and, and how important they are.

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How impactful they are when,

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When, you know, when you have

more, especially the more authority

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you have, the, the more careful

you need to be about Yeah.

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That effect.

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And, and also why it's good to

decentralize that so that these things are

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have, less damaging to, to certain degree.

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Um, so I guess, I guess

that's the question.

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Do you think in a, in a more

autonomous teams, like in teams

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that work in a more autonomous

way, do you think this would've.

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Been different if, if they had

more, kinda not just to do what they

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need to do, but also responsibility

for the actions that they take.

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Paul & Andrea: That's a good question.

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It's hard to say.

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I, I mean, I haven't really

thought through an answer to that.

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I haven't been asked that question before.

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In terms of decentralization

and autonomy, uh.

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I look back over it, I mean,

I had a lack of empathy.

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I did not take the time to think, how

would I feel if somebody did this to me?

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And I don't know that if the

team had been, I mean, the team

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was fairly autonomous and, and

power was fairly decentralized.

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And I, I thought of myself as,

as like one of the peers, There's

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other dynamics as that were in play.

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Like I was an employee,

he was a contractor.

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Mm.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And, and that adds another,

uh, complication to that.

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then, uh.

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don't know.

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I've been in situations that,

that were decentralized, where

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there was still a lack of empathy

and, and people said things that

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they didn't really think through.

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uh, maybe the blast radius is less.

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Mm.

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Yes.

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Uh, but I don't, I I, yeah.

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I wish I had a better answer.

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And I think it's, it's good's a question.

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We're exploring.

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We're exploring this theory.

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This is.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler:

I, I have a thought there.

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So you say lack of empathy and I think

I, I struggle a little bit in that.

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I, I agree with the, the.

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With that, but you can

never have enough empathy.

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So it's very hard if you, you work with

different cultures, if you work with

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different people, like you say, I, I

wasn't aware of it, but if you look

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back at their experience, was there

any point that you, that that person

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signaled in a way they didn't agree?

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Right, because it's two way on one hand

I hear you were dominant blind, right?

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You were blind to your, to your rank.

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On the other hand, I always ask myself a

question when that happens to me, is that

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what, what are some signs or something

that you can think back of like that

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that person didn't agree, could act on?

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Paul Rayner: Yeah, ahead of time.

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I think I was just to.

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The, the dynamics in terms of

employee and contractor and, and,

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you know, I, I wasn't really his boss

necessarily, but, but you know, kind

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of a certain seniority on the team.

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And, and then think related to

that, just a lack of understanding

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of how to people to change.

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you know, I, I at least was trying to show

rather than tell, but it wasn't done in a.

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way that would actually have led to that.

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I mean, it came up in today's

hands-on session this afternoon

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of I'm, I'm teaching the same

techniques today that I, I was trying

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to get across all those years ago.

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And the same questions come up from people

like how, you know, my team is reluctant.

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They, they, they wouldn't

understand the value of this.

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How do I convince them?

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And, and I told the same story.

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I'm like, well, don't do this.

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Right.

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Um,

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Andrea Magnorsky: well listen,

at least there's a, a, a story.

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You got a lot out of.

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As in, it would be sad if that

had happened and you would've

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not learned anything from it.

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Right.

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So I think the fact that not only

you learn from it, but you're willing

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to share it shows like, uh, sure.

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It's like a good thing.

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Multiple, not just learning and

sharing the, so other people learn it.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: I

think about the empathy.

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That's why I'm saying it, even though

you learned, I, I had that many times

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happening to me and it, it still happens.

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Right.

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And I think the important part, what I

hear from you is that you didn't step

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into to your cognitive dissonance of

Yeah, but I had the right intention.

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And I think that, that, that was a

big learning point for me as well.

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I'm not sure for you as well, but, but

being that, being in, in that way, right?

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I try to have the right intention

because that's what usually happens when

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people step up to the, to the plate.

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They're also propagated then in a way,

and you'll make mistakes, but then.

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You can do two things, right?

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You can say, well, but

you wanted this, right?

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So you can, you can go that

route or you can go to the root

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of, okay, how can we improve?

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This is a very tri tricky slope

from, let's say you are in a team

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coding and it's rather exact, right?

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Coding is rather exact.

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There, there's a, a solutions, and,

and then you step up to that plate

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of technical leading something,

and then there's all this flakiness

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going on there because people.

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Yeah.

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Paul Rayner: I,

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yeah, I'm, I'm really not, not sure.

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I, I think that, I mean, this was

a while ago, so I don't remember my

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initial reaction, but, but certainly.

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I, I expect that my initial reaction

would've been, well, I had the

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right intentions, but then at the

end of the day, the other person

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responded the way they did, and now

I need to, and whether or not they

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overreacted is, is another question.

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But I think certainly got my attention

and, and, and then, you know, I, I

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was working hard to make it right.

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And, and I think that's,

that's a pattern that I.

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I try to do, it's like, okay,

I'm going to make mistakes.

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And if you are in leadership,

you're going to make mistakes.

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Yeah.

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You're going, you know, you're

going to do things that people

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are going to misinterpret or, uh,

you might do the wrong, the wrong

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thing with the right intentions.

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I mean, these, these things happen

and I think part of it then is,

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well, what is, how, how do we fix

things when we, we do make mistakes

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and how do we, uh, prioritize those

relationships and, and go about.

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reconciling and, and, and so, you

know, actually giving a proper apology

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instead of just, I'm sorry, you feel

bad, but actually like, no, I was wrong.

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I did the wrong thing.

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No, I'm sorry.

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You feel the way.

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Right.

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And, and then, uh, actually.

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Thinking about, okay, well how wide

is the blast radius of this socially?

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And it, well, it's the whole team,

so I need to apologize to the whole

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team, not just to this one person.

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Andrea Magnorsky: Right.

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Yeah.

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'cause obviously this person quit,

but other people might have also.

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Paul Rayner: Everyone else was there.

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Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah.

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Paul Rayner: So they

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Yeah.

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Andrea Magnorsky: might have left

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some of them

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: It's

always when someone has a

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feeling, someone else in a group.

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But what, what I'm mostly curious

about is you, you went in, get

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into a solution mode, right?

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So you say, well, let's do this.

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So that got that person embarrassed.

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You solved that on

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emotional

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level, but was it solved on,

because it can still form

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tension if that person still

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didn't agree

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with the approach you took.

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Was, was it that they also didn't

agree on the approach you took?

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Because that can be an another level of.

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Messiness.

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Right?

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Because if, if now you reconcile,

but you still go your way, that can

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end up with sort of like, even though

your your way might be the least

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worst solution, I always say, right.

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It it, it can, it can.

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How, how did you cope with that?

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Did, did you, did you his ideas in,

or, or how did you get him to go along

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Paul Rayner: You know,

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: see?

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Paul Rayner: so honestly

it was so long ago.

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I can't remember now.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: do it

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Paul Rayner: I'd like to,

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: how would you

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Paul Rayner: like to think I

said, so what do you think?

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And all of that, but I

really, I, I don't remember.

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That would be more my

preferred approach now is to.

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solicit advice and, and you really

want people to change, you have to meet

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them where they're at and, and kind of,

and, and really hear their concerns.

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And so I would try to

do that more these days.

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If someone's pushing back, then I.

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Why are they pushing back?

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And there's a, there's a

great article by Dale Emery.

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Uh, resistance is a resource where he,

uh, elaborates why people resist change.

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And, and so being able to

what is the resistance?

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Is it somebody who's feeling threatened?

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Is it somebody doesn't understand?

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Is it, you know, any one of these

number of reasons that, that somebody

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might be, be pushing back that.

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That article does a great job of

explaining that that's actually

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a signal that you should,

uh, understand and mm-hmm.

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And, and explore as a way of moving

forward, rather than just detecting the

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pushback and then pushing back harder.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: I've, I've heard

a Dutch anthropologist say resistance

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is just someone else's opinion.

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Paul Rayner: Yeah.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Yeah.

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Paul Rayner: Yeah, I think so.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: That's it.

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Someone's just propagating, wanted

to propagate their opinion usually.

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That, that was really learned for as well.

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This concept that you, that you're

saying was really learned for me as well.

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Yeah.

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Andrew Harmel-Law: I think there's

one thing I was wondering about, um,

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Paul, the, because this, so this,

one of the things that interest

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me a lot about software is I.

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Fundamentally, like we're all, we, we

have all these mental models and then we,

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we are understanding of what the problem

is, and then we turn that into code.

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And at an architectural level that's

kind of easier because there's less in

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the current ways of doing architecture,

there are less people at the top

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who are doing architecture, right?

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And then they kind of do their

work and they pass it down to.

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Pass it down, like with the stress and the

word down to like the development teams.

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And they kind of just do it,

but they don't just do it.

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Right.

291

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They have their mental models.

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They have like, you know, this

person had their ideas of this

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code that, that they'd created.

294

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Right?

295

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And they obviously, what they

had in their head probably

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largely reflected what they did.

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And there were probably other

people who did other bits.

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I think it's 'cause one of the parts

of architecture is kind of trying

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to come to the shared mental model.

300

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But as, as you've been saying, right, the.

301

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Trying.

302

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Challenging people's code is one thing,

but challenging their mental models that

303

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turned into the code is another thing.

304

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And then kind of trying

to facilitate that thing.

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That's a big, especially if you're

emotionally related to your code, right?

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Like, I thought really hard about this and

this is my best solution to this problem.

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And then you're like,

here's a different way.

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Or even maybe not a different way, maybe

even a worse way, but a way that we more

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all commonly understand in which DDD is a

great way for getting to that kinda stuff.

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Do you think.

311

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How much do you think you are

challenging this person's?

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Again, maybe it was quite a long

time ago, but like when you see this,

313

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'cause I've seen this in the past.

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How much do you think you're fundamentally

challenging this person's, maybe not

315

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worldview, but their understanding of

the problem and all of the work that

316

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they've done to try and get to this?

317

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'cause I feel I see this a lot, right?

318

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It's very easy to do architectures.

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And the less you engage with

the people who are gonna build

320

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it, the better, because they're

not gonna push back on you.

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But what you really wanna do is

collaborate with them and get all of

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that pushback, and then get it into the

code and get that pushback and stuff.

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Paul Rayner: Yeah, I agree.

324

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Andrew Harmel-Law: What's the.

325

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Paul Rayner: uh.

326

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think of the five dysfunctions

of a team and the idea that just

327

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going for consensus really people

are saying yes when they may no.

328

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Mm.

329

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Andrea Magnorsky: Or silence

when they may like, oh my god.

330

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Paul Rayner: Right.

331

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And I think that's part of

what you're describing and I.

332

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I, I think it's much better

now to hear people's concerns,

333

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to validate their concerns.

334

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To the real collaborative aspect of

modeling is, uh, Eric Evans would

335

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always talk about, like, model it three

different ways, that's something I try

336

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and emphasize in when I teach domain

driven design is, okay, you come up

337

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with an idea, so try to look at it.

338

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Three different ways, or if you have

disagreement between two people, over

339

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two different approaches, then at least,

at least come up with three different

340

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options on the table, because then it's

not, you know, me versus Kenny, right?

341

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In terms of his approach or my

approach, or me versus you Now.

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Now we've got options on the table that

we can consider, I've actually found that

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to be a really good diffuser of these

types of things because It's, and, and

344

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event storming is like that as well.

345

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Like we were talking yesterday, there's

something about externalizing those

346

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internal mental models sticky notes and

then being able to stand up together.

347

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Yeah.

348

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At a wall and, and, and a con looking at

a very concrete, looking at something and

349

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pointing at something and saying, well,

what about this and what about that?

350

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And what if we rearranged it this way

351

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Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah,

352

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Paul Rayner: this doesn't make

353

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Andrew Harmel-Law: but this is it, right?

354

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Like it is, like Andrea said, it is

like, this is, I think, the genius

355

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of events or one of the geniuses.

356

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It is concrete 'cause it's on a

sticky note on a wall, but it's

357

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written in someone's handwriting

and you might have three things that

358

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are similar and different types of

handwriting and it's sticky notes

359

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so you can like move them around.

360

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And I think it, like, it

confronts that head on right.

361

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Well, there's

362

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Andrew Harmel-Law: This is what we

think, oh, we, we all think different

363

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things and like, oh, like that's.

364

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: also

a meta to event storming, so

365

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with which I've seen, right.

366

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Because event storming also propagates

that you're doing it in one way, which

367

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maybe someone doesn't, isn't, isn't

able to express it in an event storming,

368

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but with, with a storytelling, right.

369

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So I, I once was at a conference

with three facilitators in one group,

370

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and we all each used our own tool,

but it worked in the end because.

371

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What you're saying, Paul, it

wasn't about the approach, it's

372

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about, oh, we can interact with

the model with each other's models

373

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Front.

374

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their way.

375

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And, uh, I've seen that happen often

on the meta level as well, that

376

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we say, no, we, you really need to

do this in an event storming way.

377

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Well, but I want to do, okay, let's on.

378

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As long as you visualize it was, uh, yeah.

379

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Paul Rayner: Yeah.

380

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One of the best things I ever heard

was, I, I remember years ago teaching

381

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a DDD class in Paris, around the

time of DDD Europe, and one of the

382

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attendees said, you know, this event

storming thing, I mean, it's good,

383

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but I much prefer domain storytelling.

384

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And uh, you know, and I'm

like, great, well at least now,

385

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you know, post I don't care.

386

00:19:16,125 --> 00:19:17,025

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler:

You're collaborating.

387

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Paul Rayner: Right.

388

00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:18,910

Like,

389

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Yeah.

390

00:19:19,365 --> 00:19:19,445

Paul Rayner: know.

391

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Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah.

392

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But I think that there's a, that's

a really valid thing, but at the

393

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same time it's like knowing both.

394

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And at some point maybe they prefer

that and at some point they might

395

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go, you know what, I prefer them

domain storytelling, but for this

396

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group when coming is gonna work.

397

00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:35,140

Yeah.

398

00:19:35,170 --> 00:19:35,440

Really?

399

00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,310

'cause I, I also have

referenc them swap over time.

400

00:19:39,310 --> 00:19:39,550

Right.

401

00:19:39,795 --> 00:19:43,815

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: So, so my, my, my

wife, uh, has a background in anthropology

402

00:19:43,820 --> 00:19:50,505

and, and about this, uh, thing right where

you meet someone of where they are and she

403

00:19:50,505 --> 00:19:54,345

said, told me from a culture perspective,

and that really settled with me, right?

404

00:19:54,405 --> 00:19:58,905

You, you can, people are okay with

changing as long as it's a different

405

00:19:59,115 --> 00:20:02,685

differentiator of themself or a

differentiator of their model.

406

00:20:03,014 --> 00:20:06,075

But if you like, really change the model.

407

00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,450

Like there, that's not acceptable.

408

00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:12,990

So you want to meet them here

instead of what, what you are saying.

409

00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:15,690

And, and that really by me, right?

410

00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:20,220

People can, if they are really doing

something with UML, okay, let's start

411

00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:23,970

doing UML, but then collaboratively in

another way because, well, that's what

412

00:20:24,055 --> 00:20:24,295

Right.

413

00:20:24,450 --> 00:20:27,450

doing, so let's do more of it than, uh,

414

00:20:27,535 --> 00:20:30,025

Andrea Magnorsky: I think, I think

actually I have, have a slightly

415

00:20:30,025 --> 00:20:33,835

different mental model when it comes

to that and that mental model is that

416

00:20:34,315 --> 00:20:38,785

people will, uh, will be okay with

certain level of change as long as

417

00:20:38,965 --> 00:20:40,945

you don't attack their core beliefs.

418

00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:44,960

Obviously nobody has their core

beliefs printed on a nice, handy,

419

00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:49,580

you know, list on their forehead

or, or their arm, unfortunately.

420

00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,710

But person might have been, my core

belief is that I hate testing or not.

421

00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:55,280

Who knows?

422

00:20:55,310 --> 00:20:58,250

Or the, I love this

pattern and this language.

423

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And by doing that, you, you touched

on, or you said something that

424

00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,175

touched on their core beliefs.

425

00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,160

And I think, I think I like to

think of Thomas Coon and the

426

00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,860

structure of scientific revolution

and you know, this is the person

427

00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:13,570

that thought of paradigm shifts.

428

00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:21,070

You talked about how people

changing and, and someone to change.

429

00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:24,940

They need to change their core,

some aspect of their core beliefs.

430

00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,450

Some, some, some of them are like

really close to like being alive

431

00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:31,780

and other ones are like professional

life, emotional life, and they have

432

00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,790

less or more levels of, of depth.

433

00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,770

But I think when you talk on one of those,

you, they need to do the, the work of

434

00:21:39,070 --> 00:21:41,860

wanting to want that belief to change.

435

00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:46,210

and, and they do that, that movement from.

436

00:21:47,005 --> 00:21:50,395

don't like Let's say this

person didn't like testing.

437

00:21:50,515 --> 00:21:51,895

I'm completely making it up.

438

00:21:52,135 --> 00:21:53,425

So let's say they were like testing.

439

00:21:53,425 --> 00:21:59,065

I don't like it because reason, they,

they saw it and this really annoys them,

440

00:21:59,065 --> 00:22:01,015

and in fact, really being annoyed by it.

441

00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,660

have been the reason why it was okay and

they learned about testing, et cetera.

442

00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:10,040

So this might have been a tipping point on

being ready to change their core belief.

443

00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,100

Or maybe it was like, I think everyone

that does testing is horrible and

444

00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:16,100

turns out that you were really

nice to them, and that is like, oh,

445

00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:17,690

actually that's not true anymore.

446

00:22:17,690 --> 00:22:20,090

So I need to reevaluate that

core belief and move it.

447

00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:25,430

So this core belief idea is kind of what

helped me this behavior in some ways.

448

00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:29,090

Like, well, if I was really attached to

this idea and it was part of who I am.

449

00:22:30,025 --> 00:22:31,825

Which is similar to what

you're saying, isn't it, Kenny?

450

00:22:32,425 --> 00:22:37,465

Um, thing of how do you move forward

on something that is something that

451

00:22:37,465 --> 00:22:39,505

is nearly your identity, right?

452

00:22:39,855 --> 00:22:41,805

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: It's

a different model, a different

453

00:22:41,935 --> 00:22:42,145

Andrea Magnorsky: Yep.

454

00:22:42,495 --> 00:22:43,095

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: which I agree

455

00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:43,460

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah.

456

00:22:44,385 --> 00:22:44,985

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Going back to

457

00:22:45,025 --> 00:22:45,235

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah.

458

00:22:46,435 --> 00:22:48,625

It might be useful to, to other people to.

459

00:22:50,293 --> 00:22:52,393

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah, that's, and

that actually reminds me there's a talk.

460

00:22:53,638 --> 00:22:57,388

I think it's not my, my most famous

blue sky skeet, I think that's what

461

00:22:57,388 --> 00:23:00,238

they're called, which isn't very famous,

but it's been like retweeted a lot.

462

00:23:00,238 --> 00:23:03,388

It's just me quoting Gien

I'm gonna say that wrong.

463

00:23:03,418 --> 00:23:03,808

Apologies.

464

00:23:03,808 --> 00:23:06,658

Heen, but Heen at for quite good, right?

465

00:23:06,928 --> 00:23:11,248

Heen at, um, did a talk about

decision making at, uh, new Craft

466

00:23:11,248 --> 00:23:12,658

in Paris last week, I think.

467

00:23:13,138 --> 00:23:14,818

And it was basically like

the thing we should spend the

468

00:23:14,818 --> 00:23:16,198

most time on is the context.

469

00:23:16,198 --> 00:23:17,788

It's not the solution,

it's not the options.

470

00:23:17,788 --> 00:23:20,488

It's like where do we all start

and where does the problem start?

471

00:23:21,628 --> 00:23:23,218

We don't, 'cause we're like, let's fix it.

472

00:23:23,368 --> 00:23:24,898

And like, but spending time.

473

00:23:25,798 --> 00:23:30,028

Um, and like just judging by the number

of people who've reshared that people

474

00:23:30,028 --> 00:23:31,648

are like, yeah, that's, and it's true.

475

00:23:31,648 --> 00:23:32,818

Like, we don't, I don't do it.

476

00:23:32,818 --> 00:23:36,208

I'm like, let's get past this

boring context piece where

477

00:23:36,208 --> 00:23:37,168

we actually are right now.

478

00:23:37,168 --> 00:23:40,138

And like the actual, like, let's

forget understanding the problem

479

00:23:40,138 --> 00:23:41,398

because that's probably less exciting.

480

00:23:41,398 --> 00:23:42,628

Let's figure out how to solve it.

481

00:23:43,215 --> 00:23:43,815

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: I think that's it

482

00:23:44,368 --> 00:23:45,183

Andrew Harmel-Law: And, and, yeah.

483

00:23:45,478 --> 00:23:45,718

Yeah.

484

00:23:48,550 --> 00:23:50,950

Andrea Magnorsky: Think that, do

you have any closing thoughts or

485

00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:52,120

something you wanna share with us?

486

00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:53,710

We, without them to kind of take it away.

487

00:23:54,370 --> 00:23:58,030

Paul Rayner: Well, just grateful to be

here, uh, grateful to do the workshop

488

00:23:58,030 --> 00:24:05,110

with you and thanks to, uh, both of

you for, uh, the time to talk today.

489

00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:06,310

This is, this is really great.

490

00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:09,640

Andrea Magnorsky: Well, thank you

so much for coming and well, super

491

00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:10,900

good to do the workshop together.

492

00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,430

Great to see you too as well.

493

00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:13,750

And see you next time.

494

00:24:19,675 --> 00:24:19,765

I.