In today’s episode, I’m sitting down with the one and only Jen Hamilton - labor and delivery nurse, viral content creator, and now author of Birth Vibes. She’s the recipient of the 2026 President’s Award from the American Nurses Association, and continues to use her platform to educate, uplift, and humanize the realities of nursing, patient care, and mental health. With over a decade of bedside experience and a massive online community, Jen is known for blending clinical expertise with real-life honesty, humor, and so much heart. And truly, that’s exactly what you’re getting in this conversation. We talk about her unexpected journey from ER nurse to L&D, how she built a platform that resonates with millions, and what it’s been like stepping into the world of writing and storytelling through her new book.

From there, we dive into some of the most important conversations happening in birth right now - things like informed consent, patient autonomy, and what it actually looks like to feel supported (not just “checked off”) during your birth experience. Jen shares how she advocates for her patients in real-time, how to navigate decision-making in labor without fear, and why understanding your “birth vibes” matters just as much - if not more - than having a perfectly written birth plan. We also get into practical scenarios, pain management, and how to approach your birth feeling informed, empowered, and truly seen.

More from Jen Hamilton:

Pre-order her book: Birth Vibes

Follow Jen on Instagram, TikTok, & YouTube @_jen_hamilton_

Helpful Timestamps:

• 00:00 Welcome Jen Hamilton
• 06:59 From ER to Labor and Delivery
• 16:23 Autonomy and Informed Choice
• 19:54 Advocacy With Providers
• 28:55 Why Refusing Care Triggers Pushback
• 36:32 Promises and Transparency
• 38:39 Birth Plan Values
• 46:04 Saving Coping Batons
• 49:26 AWHONN Staffing Advocacy
• 53:27 Birth Vibes Framework

About your host:

🩺🤰🏻Lo Mansfield, MSN, RNC-OB, CLC is a registered nurse, mama of 4, and a birth, baby, and motherhood enthusiast. She is both the host of the Lo & Behold podcast and the founder of The Labor Mama.

For more education, support and “me too” from Lo, please visit her website and check out her online courses and digital guides for birth, breastfeeding, and postpartum/newborns. You can also follow @thelabormama and @loandbehold_thepodcast on Instagram and join her email list here.

For more pregnancy, birth, postpartum and motherhood conversation each week, be sure to subscribe to The Lo & Behold podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you prefer to listen!

👉🏼 A request: If this episode meant something to you, would you consider a 5 star rating and leaving us a review? Yes, we read them, and yes, they help keep L & B going! ♥️

Connect with Lo more on: INSTAGRAM | TIK TOK | PINTEREST | FACEBOOK

Disclaimer

Opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of The Labor Mama platform. Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice. Please see our full disclaimer here.

Additionally, we may make a small commission from some of the links shared with you. Please know, this comes at no additional cost to you, supports our small biz, and is a way for us to share brands and products with you that we genuinely love.

Produced and Edited by Vaden Podcast Services

Mentioned in this episode:

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What kind of things bring you comfort?

What can I do to help make sure that you feel safe today?

Knowing those things so that I can both not aggravate you and also bring you comfort is all about what I consider birth vibes, so that even if things go different than you thought, that you still can leave that experience feeling informed, empowered, and supported

Motherhood is all consuming.

Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much.

Then there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.

It's a privilege of being your child's safest space, and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.

The truth is, I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.

I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast.

Mama of four littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.

If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside, and then having, and now raising, those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.

And we're leaning into that truth here.

With a mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert insights and practical applications, each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.

This is the Lo and Behold podcast.

I feel like I have started off a ton of episodes saying the same things, right?

I'm so excited for today's guest.

I can't wait to put them in front of you.

So-and-so is a labor and delivery or a birth queen.

I've even probably said this before, right, that I keep repeating myself.

But today's guest is another one of all those things.

I have Jen Hamilton with me today.

I would honestly be a little surprised if you haven't heard her name.

I'm guessing you might already follow along, but if you don't, I would assume after today's combo that you will be interested in doing so.

Jen is a labor and delivery nurse with more than a decade of bedside experience helping mothers and families navigate one of the most impactful experiences of their lives, which is, of course, the birth of your babies.

Jen is a viral TikTok creator.

She has a social media following of, of more than six million people, which is so mind-blowing sometimes to think about, across all of the different platforms.

She is known for, and I can affirm this as well from my own years of following along with her, blending clinical expertise with frank humor, empathy, and real-world insight into healthcare.

She really does an amazing job of just sharing a little bit of all of it, and you don't always know what you're gonna get, but you are always here for it, if that makes sense.

Jen was the recipient of the 2026 President's Award from the American Nurses Association, which is very, very cool.

She continues to use her platform to educate, uplift, and humanize the reality of nursing, patient care, and mental health, and I would say also the reality of the patient experience, almost like getting into your shoes and kind of talking about what it is to be you, particularly when you are having these babes.

Jen has a new book coming out, Birth Vibes: Stories and Strategies for an Empowered Birth, and it comes out on May 5th.

So if you are listening to this in the present moment, you can pre-order now, and it is available to you tomorrow.

And you will hear me mention this when Jen and I chat, but I would highly recommend the audio version as well.

All right.

Let's get into this conversation.

Jen Hamilton.

Hi,

friend.

What a sweet treat for me- ... to finally meet you, truly, and virtually, anyway.

I think that I am probably one of millions who have loved that you share so much about all aspects of your life.

So first of all, I just wanna say thank you for that 'cause I think it's really fun to see the real person behind the healthcare provider or, I don't know, the wellness influencer, whoever.

Everyone has these things that they stand behind, but also, I think you do a really good job of sharing the real you you as well, which is why so many people seem to love you.

So I know I already kind of introed and said what you do, but what would you say to the like, "Hey, Jen, who are you?" question?

Yeah.

So I am... Oh, okay, there's a cat.

Sorry.

She's a cat lady.

A

chicken lady.

If anyone is just listening and not looking.

I have a, I have a very large cat.

Her name is Potato.

And if you think that- She is large.

You guys

can't see it ... Evelyn is going to appreciate, like, she's, she's a big girl She's

massive.

She's a huge girl, but she likes to get in, into what I'm doing.

So- I feel

like that was planned

... Jen: mm-hmm, it, yeah.

Okay,

who are you?

, Jen: My name is Jen Hamilton, and I am a labor and delivery nurse.

I'm a mom.

I have, chickens.

I, like to be, online.

I like to educate, talk about things that are happening in the world.

And, yeah, I'm very, I'm very blessed to have many, many friends on the internet, and, I like to, I like to try to sprinkle good in the world.

And so, yeah, that's about, that's about it.

A while ago, I saw you ask about, "Hey, why are you here?" And I was curious, what did you, what'd you get in those, you know, Instagram poll- Yeah, it was so wild ... results?

What did you get?

So on TikTok, it w- the split was, like, 13% of people follow me because I'm a labor and delivery nurse, and 87% follow me for something else, which I thought was crazy- Yeah

'cause I, I mean, that question came from, like, my publisher because, you know, I've just written a book on birth, and for my, allegedly, if there is a n- next book- ... I would love to kind of broaden it past birth and talk about, like, you know, being a human.

And I think that they were worried about, kind of like, well, who would, who would read that?

And so they wanted to know, like, the, the split.

I was like, "I bet you that most people don't follow me because I'm a labor and delivery nurse." I bet that's the case.

It's,

who would read that?

And it's, like, turns out 85% of the people- Yeah ... who follow you would read it.

Yeah.

Which is great.

So I was, I was wanting to...

All right, can you get down?

So I was wanting to know, like, what the split was.

So it was eye-opening to me 'cause I would've thought, like, 40/60.

I thought that would be the split, but, no, it was much, much larger of a split than I thought.

Yeah, I know I mentioned when we started too, I think that's, it's something I have loved, following along with you, and I know it is something other people love too, is that you don't really know what you're gonna get.

And, and someone could say, "Oh, that's chaotic," or, I don't know.

Think about, like, business-minded people who say- Oh, yeah ... "People need to know-" Right ... "what they're gonna get when they come to you." Yeah.

And I'm like, "Ah, I just think-" The niche ... "a lot of people wanna just get you," which means- Yeah ... whatever that is about whoever it is- Yeah

that you're paying attention to.

Yeah.

So that doesn't really surprise me, but it is funny to think a publisher could be worried, and allegedly, another book could maybe even do even better than hopefully this one does, 'cause look at that audience.

I hope so,

yeah.

Okay.

So kinda on that note actually, I know you were an ER nurse before.

Mm-hmm.

So I have two kind of questions around that is, like, one, not necessarily the kind of- I would say a little bit boring.

Like, how'd you land in L&D?

But were you the ER nurse chasing down the pregnant ladies when typically all the ER nurses are like, "I don't wanna touch them"?

And then, like, what is kind of most surprising about where you are right now, that you're in L&D, you're writing books, you're sharing- Yeah

everything about your life online?

I wanted absolutely nothing to do with anyone who might even have the, the appearance of being pregnant.

I'm shocked.

'Cause in labor and... Not, not in labor and delivery.

In the emergency department, we are so afraid that you're gonna birth in front of us, and we're gonna have to h- deal with that-

that we want you to go anywhere else but here, right?

Like, we wanna do, to send you to, send you to labor and delivery.

Even if it was like, "Oh, my toe hurts," your toe can hurt over there.

Because if something happens, you know.

It's

so true.

I didn't like- It is so true.

Yeah.

I didn't... Having a patient that I couldn't see or talk to or assess really in any way.

So I was deathly afraid of pregnant people.

And so when I... I kind of had, like, a crisis of, like, a, I don't wanna say a mental health crisis, but your girl could not do emergency anymore.

Like, it got to the, to the point where I was like, " I just can't." I'm... It was, it was too much.

And so I had, like, a really, really bad night one night working, and I got on the jobs page for my hospital, and I was looking for, I just put in the schedule that I was hoping for.

Like, two to three days a week.

'Cause at, at that point, I was the assistant director of the department where I was working.

And, so I put in, like, two to three days a week, and I found a position for labor and delivery weekend option, which is just Saturdays and Sundays and, like, one day during the week every other week.

And I was like, "That sounds nice." But during nursing school, I also did not like labor and delivery because it was very wet, you know?

It was a very wet place, and I did not know what all that was.

And I was, was like, "I don't want-"

It

is a wet place.

But I, I was willing to try out the wetness to see if I could tolerate it for the schedule.

For the schedule.

Yeah.

And then I went... So that was on a Friday night.

I shadowed on Sunday, like two days later, and was done with emergency medicine at that day.

Like, I walked in.

First of all, there were hella nurses for not a hella lot of patients.

I was like, " What do you mean there's 15 nurses and, like, 12 patient?

What is happening here?" And because in the emergency department, you, you just get stacked up with whatever, whatever you get.

So I, I couldn't believe that the, like, the nurse to r- patient ratio was, like, one to one most of the time.

It's like what kind of dream place is this?

And then I noticed that people were, like, happy to be there.

I was like, "This is weird." So, and then I got to watch, the fellow nurses in action and see how they got to connect with their patients, which I really didn't get to do very much in the ER.

It was just kind of like bada bing, bada boom.

So I was like, "Hell yeah, I'm a labor and delivery nurse now."

And, by the next week, I had fully accepted the position and kind of went from there.

But, it was almost like a love at first sight kind of thing once I was on the floor.

Like in, I think in nursing school, like, I was kind of like, eh, about it, but whenever I had accepted the position, I'm like, this is it.

This is what I wanna do.

So as far as something that surprised me, I'm surprised at how much I, I fell in love with it, I guess.

Like, my whole identity was wrapped in being an emergency department nurse before, and I'd never thought that I could be as good of a labor and delivery nurse as I was an ER nurse.

'Cause in the ER, like, by the time you've been there for several years, you know, you can basically handle whatever comes in, you know?

And I felt very confident in the ER.

And then whenever I became a labor and delivery nurse, it's kind of like going back to school, you know?

Like, I felt like I knew nothing, and, I'm surprised that I, I guess, took to it so well, that, like, once you get passionate about something, it's easy to learn, you know?

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

I feel the opposite, only in that I've only worked in L&D, and I can't imagine... Well, I feel maybe what you felt as an ER nurse of like, I could never be this good at something else or love something else this much 'cause that-

Right

... Lo: I don't know if you feel like you loved ER nursing, but certainly it seems like you were good at it.

But it's the same, like, I can't go do something else.

There's no way-

Yeah

... Lo: that I would... Yeah, it's just hard to imagine having that breadth of knowledge again, skill level, passion, like, all of it line up.

So it makes sense.

It surprises me that you said you were the one, like, no way.

I guess I just assumed you'd be like, "Oh yeah, I was the one, like, let me at 'em."

I had-

No

... Tina, Tina on from Mom Nurse Tina, and she was that, right?

And so she's like- Yeah ... "I was the ER nurse, and when everyone ran away, I was running in the opposite direction." Yeah.

And so to me, that made such perfect sense that I just assumed you would say the same.

But also- Yeah, it was

just a comfort level thing.

Like, I, I didn't do it enough to feel comfortable with it, so I was like, "You, somebody else can handle this."

Yeah.

Well, and I think all, most ER- Nurses do feel that way.

It was the exact same- Yeah ... you know, for me, like, like you said.

If they stub their toe, it was like, "Please go up to OB. We're not-" Yeah

"taking care of you." Mm-hmm.

As soon as there's a baby on board-

Right

... they, they don't want it.

So it makes perfect sense.

Interesting.

What about the idea of you also, okay, you've changed nursing specialties.

That's surprising.

What about this idea, you are all over online sharing all this stuff.

You are a book writer now.

Was that a, maybe I'll write a book sitting in the back of your head someday?

What about that step?

Never.

Never, never.

And, like, I had publishers that had reached out to me previously.

Whenever I was kinda sharing a lot of, like, labor and delivery knowledge and stuff and was kinda gaining momentum online, I had publishers reach out to me, and my initial thought and my initial email back to those people was like, "I'm good.

No, thanks," because I don't consider myself a writer.

I'm not even a journaler, you know?

But I do know a thing about writing some nursing papers.

That's all that I knew.

So- Care, care plans ... I didn't know that that would translate really well to something that people would want to read.

I could write a patho on some diabetes, but-

you know, as far as, like, narrative storytelling, that kind of stuff, I didn't know if I'd be good at it.

So my initial, response to them was, "No, I'm good." And then I had other friends who had written books who were like, "No, you should.

Like, it really just comes from, you know, your experience in life and just talking about things that have happened, and, you can try it out."

So I wrote a sample, and it got sent around, and people liked it, and, ended up with, you know, different offers and stuff.

And I was like, "I guess we'll try this." ' Cause whenever- Yeah ... you're writing a book through a publisher and stuff, a lot of times you... it's not like you've written the book yet.

You're just writing a sample, you know?

Right.

And then they're kind of putting their faith in you that you're gonna do okay- Deliver

... Lo: in terms

of writing.

Yeah.

So yeah, that was nothing that I ever had in my, you know, five-year plan or even my life plan.

It wasn't on my radar at all, but I'm so grateful the opportunity to, be able- You're

so grateful you're getting choked up.

Ugh.

It's so sweet.

I know.

Had to have a hay ball.

Grateful for the opportunity to not just, you know, hopefully help people with the, with the stories in the book, but also to, like, process my own things that I've been through, you know?

'Cause, one thing about being online is that it's very hard to find a therapist.

Like, I have had a few, and, the second they cross over from like, "Oh yeah, you know, I, I know you online," or like, "I follow you," I was like I just wanna be anonymous for a minute.

So-

That is so interesting to think about-

Yeah.

Yeah

... Lo: and a whole other conversation.

So

I really don't- But that must

be tough

yeah, I don't have that outlet to be able to process things that I, that I deal with at work.

And you know this is a very, It's heavy.

Like, the stuff that we do is very heavy, and it's not like you can just talk about it with anybody.

So to be able to write about those things in a way where I could, like, what's the word, anonymize.

Like, all the stories are, like, I've changed things in order to make them anonymous or, like, merged two or three patients together so that, you know, nobody can, like, pick it out and be like, "Oh, that's me." But they're all still very real to me 'cause they're all things that I've been through, just things that I haven't been able to talk about.

So, that was super cathartic to me to be able to write about, so I'm very grateful to have the opportunity.

That's cool.

I cannot wait to read it.

I'm excited to hear the audio as well, 'cause I know you do audio versions- Oh, yeah.

No, it's fun ... which

I feel like,

yeah, people obviously love your voice, and you have a very, a very you voice, so I'm sure that it-

you can feel it all over the audiobook.

Okay, I wanted to talk about some birth stuff with you obviously.

We can circle back on the book a little bit at the end, 'cause I want you to share a tiny bit more.

But you talk so much about protecting your patients, supporting.

I just love your vocabulary, and I'm sure it's threaded throughout your books as well about some of that.

So I actually wanted to read a quote to you really quick, and then thought we could just chat about it a little bit as it pertains to all these families having babies right now.

So the quote, and I don't know where it came from, says, "The fear of accepting every intervention is the same as the fear that refuses every intervention.

True autonomy is the ability to pause, understand, and choose." And I saw that a while ago, floating around on social media, and I just loved it, because I feel like we have this issue now where people are scared to say yes to anything but also scared to say no to anything.

Mm-hmm.

And so z- they're left with this kind of hands up, like, "I don't know what to do about any of this."

So when it comes to that, like, idea of autonomy and what that actually looks like for your patients, or maybe what you laid out inside of your book as well, what does that mean for you when you say, "Hey, this is how I protect my patients," or, "I protect your right to choose"?

What does that kind of protection vocabulary mean for you?

Yeah.

So every single patient comes in with their own story, right?

The, and all of their background kind of paints the way that they interact with the world.

And when you have someone who comes in- afraid of intervention, because they know that, like, cascade of interventions can lead to things that we don't want, or if you have someone who is just terrified to go against anything that you say, I mean, I think that both of those feelings are so valid, right?

One is, you know, in trying to protect autonomy and, and protect themselves from unnecessary things that could cause them harm, and then the other is just so fearful of any harm, you know?

So, in making the wrong decision.

So what I always say is that I will protect your right to make your, whatever your decision you wanna make, even if it's not something that I would do.

So I consider my job as a labor and delivery nurse just a communicator.

I'm here to communicate, changes.

I'm here to communicate your risks and benefits of each decision, and past that, whatever you decide is what I will support, even if, like I said, I wouldn't do the same.

So I, I think that risks and benefits mean different things to different patients, and someone's individual risk for something may be different than, you know, standard risk, and only the patient can take a look at those things and decide whether that risk is something that they want to take.

The cat is back, you guys.

Potato, you just really wanna be in here.

She's, like, 20 pounds.

I'm not even-

When you just dropped her on the floor, I could hear the thunk.

On

the floor, yeah.

Or you guys

It sounded funnier

than

it

was ... heard

her.

Yeah.

Anyway, back to our patients.

It's the, what you were saying, too, I love, is the support versus protect, Mm-hmm

dichotomy.

Like, I feel like people get hung up there of, like, if you say, "I support you," there's this idea of what you're choosing, I would choose it, too.

I support that.

And I feel like what you're saying is, "No, I don't have to want to do the same things, but I will protect your, like, privilege and right to choose something."

Yeah.

And they're not the same.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So what does that look like when you are in a room and a provider who is, let's say, above you, like a doctor or midwife, is not practicing in the same way?

Like, practically speaking, how does that look like for a nurse when they're like, "I don't know.

I'm gonna go ahead and check your cervix and strip your membranes.

Sound good?" Like that type of conversation.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

What's that look like for you as a nurse?

I think that's the hardest for, especially new nurses, to find this... I call it finding your balls.

Yeah.

That's

true.

So, yeah.

The way that it looks like for me is that I communicate with the patient what I wish that person had just said So for instance, we've got a, let's say that we've got a doc who, comes in...

Oh, let me back up.

I will pre-game with the patient these conversations also, right?

So I'm gonna give you an example.

Let's say, and this has actually happened in real life.

Have a patient who comes in, her cervical exam downstairs was like four and a half, her water just broke maybe like 30 minutes before.

She's having painful, consistent contractions every two to three minutes.

She's rocking and rolling, okay?

I will tell, and if I look and see who's on, that's really gonna be able to tell me what, what's about to happen.

So,

I'm just gonna clarify.

You mean by looking and seeing who's on, you're talking about- Yeah

which doctor is gonna come in- Yeah ... and like be-

Yeah

... Lo: in charge-

Yeah

... Lo: of, of how this all might go.

Yeah.

So I, if I see someone who I know ha- tends to practice in a certain way, we'll talk about that, whether that's high intervention, low intervention.

We'll talk about what kinds of things I can anticipate for her so that we can talk about what she feels about those things so that if anything starts to turn in one direction, I know how to best advocate for her.

So I know that this particular doc wants every single person on pit, whether they need it or not, and, this was somebody who definitely, there was no medical need.

I'll say that.

So I said, "In just a minute," we'll call this Dr. Pitocin Patty, okay?

"In just a minute, Pitocin Patty's gonna come in here, and she's gonna say, 'I'm gonna check your cervix.'

What she means by that is, she would like your, your permission and your consent to check your cervix.

You have the right to, to accept or decline, her cervical exam." I said, "And regardless of what your cervix is, she's going to look at me, and she's going to say, 'Start pit two by two.' And what she means by that when she says that, is she is asking your permission to put you on a medication that is going to make your contractions stronger and closer together.

My nursing assessment for you is that you are having strong, consistent contractions every two to three minutes.

So you get to make your own big girl decision about whether that's something that you would like to have or not.

And if you say no, if you..." I s- I give them language, okay? I say, "If that's something you would like, you can say, 'Sure.

Let's do it.' If that is not something that you would like, you can say, 'No thank you.

I'll let you know if I change my mind.'" "If you do say no thank you, I want you to know what she's going to say, and that is, she's going to tell you that you are now at risk for infection, and without the Pitocin, that risk is increasing."

So I kind of give them language to either accept or decline whatever, because I d- I don't think that people understand that you don't have to accept every single thing, you know?

And sometimes there are situations in which providers, doctors, midwives, whoever, just kind of get in this rhythm of what they normally do, and that's just how they do stuff.

So this particular patient, every single thing that I said was gonna happen, happened.

And so she looked at me after the doctor left the room and she's like, "How did you know?" I was, I was like, "I..." You know, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.

But if I have, if I don't have the opportunity to pre-game that conversation and I have a provider that just comes in and starts doing stuff, then I will kind of intervene and translate for the patient what I wish they would've said.

Hey friend, quick pause for just a second.

If you are listening to this podcast because you wanna feel more prepared, more confident, and less freaked out about birth, that is exactly why I created the Your Body Your Birth course.

This birth course will not tell you what kind of birth you should want, and nobody has the right to do that.

It is about helping you understand what's happening in your body, what your options actually are, and how to walk into your birth feeling grounded, excited, ready, instead of overwhelmed and scared.

When you have education like this, everything changes, your mindset, your conversations with your care team, and the birth experience itself.

No more relying on random opinions, okay?

Stop scrolling.

Take intentional action with me and start trusting your body, your voice, and your decisions today.

Head over to www.thelabormama.com/birth, also linked in your show notes, and be sure to use the code podcast at checkout to save 20% and start working towards this better birth for you right now.

Okay, let's get you back to the episode

So doc comes in, we do a a cervical exam with the patient's permission, and, there was one time that I had a doctor say, "Hook," to me, and you and I will know what that means.

That doctor was wanting me to give him the amni hook so that he could break this patient's water.

There was zero conversation about doing that prior to the cervical exam.

So I'm in charge of the hook, right?

He doesn't have the hook.

So we pause and I say, "What this doctor is saying right now to me, is that he believes that this is a safe time for us to break your water.

What this means is, you know, sticking this hook inside of you, rupturing this bag-" Fluid would come out.

And then kinda give, like, real quick rundown of, you know, risk, risk-benefit situation.

The doctor was pissed at me.

So angry.

But I feel like everyone deserves informed consent, everyone, and I'm not gonna let somebody do something to you because that's what they think that they should do, you know?

So he was asking... He said to me, like, while I'm doing that, he's like, "Are you asking me if it's okay?" Like, just being snarky.

And you're like, "No, I'm not, actually. I don't care." Yeah,

I don't care.

So I try my best to, in those situations, I just consider myself a translator, 'cause I also want to manage people up and I, you know, I don't want there to be, like, a confrontation between the two of us in front of the patient.

I think that's inappropriate.

So I try to just consider myself a translator of what I wish they would've said.

I think it's so valuable.

Like, there's these little terms sometimes that, like, if you're pregnant right now, you're listening to this, just have these be this little, I don't know, little red flag sometimes.

And they're not always a bad thing, but just these providers who kind of just use comments and statements like, "Does that sound good?" Like, where they've kind of, where y- where they're not necessarily giving you choice.

Like, "We're gonna go ahead and do this. Sound good?" Like, those statements- Mm ... typically aren't a full informed conversation.

And so there's these little times where I think, I don't even know that there's this inherent desire to take away this choice from the patient, but I think in healthcare sometimes the way that we s- say things, be that a pr- a doctor or a nurse or whoever, like, we almost make the patient feel like they don't really get to say no- Right

if that's what they wanna say, 'cause it's kind of like, "You wanna roll with what we just laid out for you?

Cool." And it's like, "Ugh, wait, like, can you give me the yes and the no side of it?" And so think that ability to pre-game with the provider, like, what a gift if you can have a nurse who can do that.

And then just as the patient to be able to say, like, "Okay, you just gave me actually options.

Like, let's make sure I know what both of them are." Like, if you weren't there for that specific patient at the time, if they'd been able to say, "Okay, you wanna break my water," like, I know what hook means.

And then be able to say, "Wait, let's talk pros and cons," and just... And that puts a lot of responsibility on the patient sometime, right?

Right.

To almost have to decipher vocabulary being used, and that's not fair.

So I, I don't want someone to think, "Hey, this is your job to know these little isms that are being said." But also, also say, also I guess I am telling you guys, like, yeah, like, know that you can pause a conversation and stop and, and be clear about what you're agreeing to or what you're saying no to as well, 'cause I think the ball just gets rolling sometimes, and it doesn't feel malicious, nor is it, I mean, most of the time.

Right.

But it's like the ball's rolling down the hill, and as a patient, then you're like, "I don't even really know how to stop this or where I stopped being heard- Right ... or something like that.

Yeah.

So when it comes to kind of like, to stem off this conversation a little bit, why do you think... I feel like online there's this pushback from, oh, I don't know, some providers at that idea of a nurse or, or whoever, actually, anyone saying online, "Hey, you have the right to refuse anything."

And that like really gets hackles up from some providers.

This- I'm not trying to like toot my own horn.

To me, I'm like, yeah, that's true.

Like, you do- Mm-hmm ... have the right to refuse anything.

Why do you think that can make people feel so spicy?

So I think that providers hearing or getting upset about hearing someone say you can decline anything, I think that it comes from the worry that patients will decline anything and everything because they can, and throw all caution to the wind just in order to decline something.

Like, that's all... Like, that they can't wait to say no to stuff.

And I think that we need to give patients more credit than that, and that we don't need to infantilize them to think that we have to make decisions for them.

But I think that the message in knowing that you can decline anything is that there is choice, and often, most of the time, there are many or a few paths to the same destination, and it doesn't mean that it's one size fits all, and every single patient needs to follow every single protocol and policy.

Different people are gonna have different risk-benefit profiles of stuff and, like- You know, it's easy for a, a hospital to say like, "Oh, you know, we don't want you to eat or drink anything in labor." Well, you're, you're putting that over so many people that would be just fine to eat and drink with n- with very, very little risk at all.

And so when you're, when you're putting that blanket over everyone, you're harming a lot of people by putting policies in place that are not, taking individual risk into account, right?

Like for instance, if I went and had a baby, would I have an IV?

Sure.

Right?

But there are so many patients with a very low risk profile that come in and don't want one, and that's their own risk to take, you know?

I think that, we need to do a better job of just, you know, educating people on risks and benefits, and then documenting their response and how we are supporting them in that response.

I think that, since OB is so litigious, people are so worried that if a patient makes a choice, that it will end badly, and then it'll come back on us.

And I can absolutely empathize with that because I... Nobody wants a bad outcome, and we feel like if we're following policy and procedure, then we're gonna be protected.

But the pa- we're the ones that have to follow policy and procedures.

The patients don't, you know?

So as long as I'm, informing you of your choices, I think that you should be able to make that decision.

One thing I feel like providers can do better at too is not pigeonholing a patient because they've said no, like let's say to the IV, right?

Yeah.

'Cause, you know, an IV is typically part of admitting them or whatever, and that's part of the process.

And so I feel like there can be this tendency, again, nurse or doctor or midwife or whoever's around, depending on what they think about all this stuff, is to think, "Oh, she refused the IV.

She's one of those," right?

And we get almost in our heads right away or someone on the team does about like, "Oh, they're just gonna refuse everything." And then it can lead to this, And this is on our, it's on our part, right?

We're screwing up here if we get into this thing of like, " It's just one of those patients who's gonna say no to everything and won't listen to anything."

And I just think that that can kind of creep up too soon or too often when sometimes it's just a patient who has this well-thought-out plan.

They know their risks.

They know all the things, and so they've said, "Hey, I don't want an IV right now, but I'll let you know if that changes or if I feel like I'm not hydrated."

Like, that's such a practical way for them to make the decision or approach the decision, and I think sometimes then we pigeonhole them.

Yeah.

And so then patients, rightly so, if this is happening, have this fear of like, "Well, I don't want them to just-" Put me in this box, right?

That I'm like the obstinate one who's refusing everything.

And so like providers need to do a lot better job of recognizing that each individual choice is being made, right?

And they get the privilege to make the next one, and the next one, and the next one.

Mm-hmm.

And patients also, like, hold onto that too, of like, "I can say no to this, and then say yes to this.

I don't have to be on the no track for every single thing, or on the yes track every single thing you say I'll do." Like, they're allowed to kinda dance around for what feels good and right to them with what they know and what's going on, and all of that.

So.

And if I do have a patient that declines, you know, something that is deemed medically necessary by a doctor or midwife, what I'll do is let them know that I will let them know if anything changes in their circumstances that might, have them reconsider, right?

So like, hey, this has happened to me a few times, you know, I have somebody without an IV, and we're doing intermittent monitoring.

Okay, well, during my intermittent monitoring I'm hearing something suspishy, so we switch to continuous and I'm seeing, like, something weird.

"Hey, something has changed, and one way that I can help you is by doing an IV, giving some fluids," that kind of stuff.

So letting them know if things have changed in the, in the course of their care.

And also talking about, okay, if things do change, what are our options?

So let's say that they don't have an IV, and we're about, we're gonna deliver at some point.

" Okay, well, if we begin to see, like, really, heavy bleeding, like, this might be something to think about if we're, you know, in order for us to give you, different medications," or something like that.

I think also talking about contingency plans to make sure that the patient is well-informed so that if something does change, that we're not just saying... 'Cause sometimes I think we think that they're just gonna say no, and we don't tell them, like, "Hey, this, this new thing has happened," 'cause we just assume they're going to say no to stuff.

So I think that it's all about having more conversation, more communication, and not just, like you said, pigeonholing people into, being the person that's just gonna say no to everything.

Yeah.

That, like, con- constant communication and updating, my brain's just thinking of some of these big topics that you hear about online, like do you have to have an IV?

Do you need continuous monitoring?

Can you eat during labor?

Like, how all of those necessities can change based on- Mm-hmm ... what is or isn't going on, but how often is it communicated or taught like that?

Like, right now, perfectly practical for you to say no to X, Y, Z.

Mm-hmm.

But four hours later, if something's going on, is someone communicating, "Hey, this is how things have changed."

Like- Would you like to consider the IV right now because this is the pro or the con?

'Cause it feels weird, but pros and cons can actually kind of change depending on what's going on- Mm ... in the labor.

They're not so absolute, right?

Some of them might be, but a pro, I feel like particularly a pro sometimes in some of these bigger kind of decisions people are making when they're, like, making a birth plan and stuff, a pro can change, right?

Like, if your baby's having D cells and they weren't, well, the IV m- for me, then a pro might be like, "Hey, we could hydrate you. We could utilize this." Like, whereas that isn't necessarily going to be an absolute pro when everything looks great and you've come in six hours prior and baby's looking great on the monitor.

Like, that, that things do kind of change like that, but if the patient hasn't been given that information, then they, they might feel like, "Well, no, I'm just not doing that." Mm-hmm.

And it's like, "Well, let's talk about how the decision may have, may be changing for you," and then give you the chance- Exactly

yeah,

to

make a new one.

One thing that I, the one thing that I tell people when I first meet them is I, I give them promises that I promise to do for them.

One of those things, is that I promise to never keep secrets from you.

So if there's something that I can see on the horizon as a possibility, I wanna talk to you about it early and often so that I know how best to advocate for you in that, in that situation.

And I think that that really comes into play if you have someone who has made a decision, that may, based on circumstances might need to be reconsidered, and it doesn't mean that they'll change their mind, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm going to make sure that you just have the information that you need that's accurate and up to date in order to make that decision.

And then I'm gonna support whatever you say, and I will not bring it back up unless something has changed.

Yeah.

And I think that that kind of goes back to the idea you were talking about of, like, infantilizing them or thinking they don't have the capacity to, to take in knowledge or understand how things have changed because there's this idea of, like, "I don't wanna scare you and point out that your baby's-" Right

having lates or some- you know, whatever it is.

But actually, how sweet it is for a parent to just say, "Hey, like, you see this monitor? Here's some stuff I'm paying attention to. Like, this could mean this, could mean that." Like, just giving them that.

Like, why are we not trusting them with that?

They're about to take that human home.

Mm-hmm.

And they get to raise it.

Like, I think that in labor we can trust them with that stuff as well.

Yeah.

But we feel scared to.

Like, "Oh, we don't wanna scare you," or we certainly don't wanna be making them make a fear-based choice like, "I'm gonna scare you so bad about X, Y, Z with your baby that you're gonna do-" Yeah

"what I want." 'Cause that can be manipulated, I think.

Exactly.

But I just think as a nurse especially, 'cause you're with them so much and you're watching all the things, to feel comfortable.

Like, maybe new nurse, if you're listening to this, to feel comfortable, like, giving them that education and trusting them To not panic and to not freak out, and to take it in and make choices as parents, 'cause that's what they are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, I wanna throw a couple little... I know we kinda talked about some birth scenarios, just a couple at you just for fun.

Yeah.

Like, what would your response be and/or what would you suggest to a patient in this situation?

First one's kind of basic, but do I need a birth plan and/or how do you clarify what they do need coming into the birth?

So I think it's amazing and awesome when people investigate things prior to, right?

It helps me so much as your nurse to be able to understand not just the kind of things you want or don't want, but why.

I think that that's what's missing from a lot of birth plans is like, what about this part of your birth plan protects your values?

Like, what value is it that you're wanting, to protect with this birth plan item?

So that I can protect whatever that is, even if things go differently.

So for instance, if somebody comes in, with intermittent fetal monitoring on their birth plan, but they came in because they're not feeling their baby move.

If continuous fetal monitoring is something that they, you know, agree to once we have identified that there might be an issue, knowing that it was because you didn't wanna be tied to the bed, that was why you wanted it intermittent, that helps me so much because, girl, we're gonna be moving and grooving.

And I will make sure that even with continuous fetal monitoring, that you feel mobile and, vertical or however you wanna be.

So I think that knowing why you want things is important, but more than anything, more than any line on a birth plan, I want to know who you are as a human and how I can best communicate with you.

Do you need visuals?

Do you nee- How do you learn best?

Like, what kind of information do you need to be able to make a decision and feel good about it, and feel confident about it?

What do you want your environment to feel like?

What-- How can I make this environment feel less scary?

How can I, protect you if there's things that you've been through in your life that make today extra scary?

Or if there's anything that I might not think about that I can unintentionally trigger for you, based on things that you've been through?

Or what kind of things bring you comfort?

Like, what can I do to help make sure that you feel safe today?

You know, for instance, like I hate it when people touch my hair, but I love a backrub.

Yeah.

You know?

So, like knowing those things so that I can- Both not aggravate you and also bring you comfort, is all about what I consider birth vibes, so that even if things go different than you thought, that you still can leave that experience feeling informed, empowered, and supported.

Yeah.

I'm laughing 'cause I'm just picturing probably the number of times a nurse, including myself, has, like, maybe, like, touched their hair or something- Oh, yeah

and they never said they didn't like it, and then probably later they're like,

" Jen: Ugh, that nurse kept touching

my hair."

Yes.

Right.

You're like, "Please tell us," 'cause we actually can stop- Yeah ... doing that.

We just wanna- Right ... comfort you.

We can pivot.

We can find

something else.

Yeah, we can find another way to, like- Right

love you well.

I was also laughing thinking about visual learners, and if someone was saying, "Hey, I'm a visual learner," the idea of you or any nurse being like, "I'm gonna act this stuff out," like, just what that can look like- Oh, yeah ... to try and, try and meet some education needs.

But I'm sure you are, you are talented at that if they need it.

Okay, that's funny.

One of my questions was this idea of a friend saying, "I literally do not want anyone to touch me. How do I make that happen?" Would you have more- Yeah ... to say to that, actually?

Telling

them- That

that... Yeah

... Jen: you gotta be straight up with us because we get on autopilot, and guess what autopilot means?

We gonna touch you.

And it, and it doesn't mean... I always ask people before I touch them for the very first time, like, "Is it okay if I touch you?" You know?

And I try to be cognizant of that throughout.

But, you know, so much of our job is comforting people and touching them.

And so if you don't wanna be touched, I need to know that, like, right up front.

Please tell me and remind me if ever I mess up,

You just gotta tell us and remind us if we mess up, 'cause that is something that we could mess up on.

Yeah.

No, I, I think it definitely is, and I know from having babies, like, that specific one almost stems from my own thing.

I did not want anyone to touch me at all, and they're comforting, and they wanna be there, and I'm like, "I wanna be alone in a, in a hole." I mean, I really just, like, didn't want-

Yeah

... any of the stuff that I thought I maybe would.

But if you don't tell them, they're probably gonna... Yeah, the default for most people supporting anyone in birth is gonna be to be really near and, and probably to touch, so.

And I think also- And

it's a good thing to think through

Yeah, and talking about times that or emergencies that maybe touch would need to happen, is important.

Because, like, if I'm pushing out a baby, I don't want anybody to touch me.

You know?

Like, that's, that's a time that I don't wanna be touched.

But, like, let's say that we're pushing out a baby and we have a shoulder dystocia, right?

Like, that's a time when touch is very, very important, and talking about, like, if you don't wanna be touched, your nurse talking about, "Well, in these scenarios, touch may be required in order to keep you and your baby safe. Can we talk about those in advance so that we are all on the same page and you don't feel like I'm trying to assault you?"

You know?

If that happened.

Yeah.

Yeah, we don't want that, do we?

Yeah.

Okay, let's see.

Let's say it's husband, birth partner, she's asking for an epidural, but she told me she doesn't want one or to stop her, what do we do?

What's going on in that room when they're like, "Help us, Jen. What should we do?"

So let me, let me make sure I'm understanding correctly.

So the patient told the, their husband ahead of time that they don't

want- And you ... and me ... "I'm not doing epidural."

" Jen: Don't, don't let me get

an epidural." And now, now she wants one, and so- Yeah ... they're looking at you, wanting one.

Birth partner's saying,

" Jen: She said we should stop." Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you do

as a nurse?

So what I, what I do is I try t- I tell them that labor is like a baton race of coping, and I can give them more batons.

' Cause, like, I remind them, like, "Okay, we, we talked about this, and I'm just doing what you asked me to do. I can give you more batons to cope with." So, like, I think that it's really hard to decide things in labor.

And so if you give them, like, an entire Chili's menu of like, "Okay, we could try this or this or this or this or this," it becomes overwhelming, and it's hard to, to cope.

So what I do is I give them two choices.

"Okay, we can either," I don't know, fill in whatever you wanna do.

"We can get in the shower, or we can try nitrous.

And then, you know, epidural is always an option, but we can try these things first.

I'm just trying to

support what you said with a clearer mind.

I try to, I will always, always, always ultimately

do what the patient is telling me that they want to do.

If they truly decide in that moment they do not, they're not interested in any of my options, for sure, absolutely.

But I'm also trying to honor what the patient wanted, before.

So I will honor both, but I want to, I want to help you achieve your goals in whatever way that makes sense to you.

So I'll try to offer two options that are non-epidural options that we can try, and then try to ride that baton race farther than we were before.

And also, by the time someone tells me, "I can't do this anymore," they're usually almost there

So you could, remind them of that too.

Yeah.

I mean, that's usually, yeah, it usually means transition, right?

And so then you're more like, " Hey, this is actually a great thing." Yeah.

Yeah.

That's definitely true.

Okay.

On that, I, I wanted you to keep going a tiny bit because I heard you talk on another podcast, I think with Dr. Lincoln, about the idea of, blowing your load too early, I believe was your vocabulary.

So since we're talking about that and that idea of someone saying, "Hey, I don't want an epidural," or, you know, maybe things change, will you, elaborate on that for anyone thinking about pain manage o- pain- Yeah

managing options and what that, what that means?

People get so excited during pregnancy to learn about coping techniques in labor, right?

So they learn about, you know, either, like, the, the labor comb or, like, the spiky fidget thing.

They learn about breathing.

They learn about hypnobirthing.

They learn about, affirmations, like, all these different things.

And I'm gonna use the example of an induction, okay?

So let's say, or you come in in super early labor.

I feel like sometimes when people come to the hospital, they feel like this is the time to use those coping strategies.

But what I see people do that really messes them up if, if they're wanting an unmedicated labor, is that they blow their load early, and they don't hold each baton as long as they can before going to the next one.

So by saying blow your load early, I mean they fly through every single coping strategy that they learned before they... I don't wanna say needed it, like, they probably did need some kind of stuff, but before they were desperate for it.

Like, before you go to the next coping strategy, I want you to be desperate for it.

Because the longer that you go on one coping strategy before reaching for the next, the longer you'll go in your labor before reaching for an epidural if you do it all.

So don't be getting in the water at one centimeter.

Don't do it.

That's, that's, that's transition stuff right there.

Like, we need to save that for the last.

Use, use those low-level coping strategies early on, and ride that sucker till the wheels fall off, before you reach for the next one, and that can help you reach your unmedicated goals.

Yeah.

No, that's perfect.

One of my friends is a doula and shares online, and they had shared a, a reel on TikTok first, and it went viral, and, you know, the comment sections always get a little spicy typically if something is viral.

And it was basically a doula telling a patient, "No, you can't get in the water yet." And it w- Mm-hmm ... but it was essentially that premise of a good doula or say a good provider is like, "Don't blow your load early.

Don't get-" Mm-hmm ... "in the water if you're only five centimeters-" and you want to do this whole thing unmedicated."

Like, that that's part of their work is, is this idea of batons is perfect.

But, like, I don't want you to jump to the best final baton you want- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it's probably not gonna last you-

Then

you're just- ... for five more centimeters

... Jen: hurting and wet.

That's what you don't want.

Yeah.

Well, I also have never wanted to be in the water.

It's funny when you said labor's so wet, 'cause I'm like- Yeah ... "I don't wanna be in the water." Yeah.

Wanted to try and have the kids unmedicated, but don't come near me with a pool or a shower because the- Yeah ... idea of being hurting and wet is, ugh, horrible to me.

Yeah.

But God bless everyone who loves it, 'cause it seems like water is incredible- It works, it works so well-

but it is not for me

... Jen: for some people, and I, and I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

More power to you.

Just wait to get in if you're trying to go unmedicated.

Right.

That, that's the lesson.

Okay, I wanna ask you about the AWHONN staffing thing that you've talked a lot about- Yeah ... on social media.

This can be the last quick thing, but I've seen people say, " Oh, that's cool.

You're saying call hospitals, ask if they follow AWHONN staffing standards, and figure that out about their unit." But what do you say to someone who says, "Jen, I called them, and they didn't give me a good answer.

They told me no.

They didn't wanna answer the question." Then what is a patient or a friend, whoever's talking in this situation, then what would you tell them in response to that?

I think that when you go in to have your baby, if you feel like you're not being paid attention to or you're not getting good care, a question that's very valid is to ask your nurse how many patients they're caring for.

And if you're, if you find yourself in that situation where your nurse is caring for, you know, three laboring patients, that's completely unacceptable.

So that's when you can escalate.

And I think that it's important to kind of lean on your support people for this also, to escalate that to, the house supervisor or whoever to draw attention to the fact that we have unsafe staffing on this unit.

And listen, AWHONN supports turning off pit on everybody on the unit until you have safe staffing.

It needs to be that big of a deal, because we cannot provide our patients with safe care if we're caring for too many patients in order to do that.

And can you imagine a private physician finding out that a nurse turned off pit on their patient- No ... just no

pit?

As soon as you said that, I was like, the unit I worked in- You want to get some-

had like 28 beds ... yeah I'm like, can you imagine turning off pit- Right ... in 17 different rooms all at the same time?

Yeah.

I

mean,

no, I cannot.

You wanna get something done, though, you start doing that, and I bet you that they're gonna find some, some nurses, you know?

Yeah.

So I think that- That is a quest-, like, knowing how many, how many patients your nurse is caring for is a valid question, and escalating it if it's an unacceptable answer is also valid.

Yeah.

To me, I hear, like, "Hey, an awareness," right?

Call your unit and get some details and information, just something to carry in.

And then if you were to be in labor and feel like, "This feels like there's no one here for me," then you can go ahead and escalate it.

'Cause I think, I think it's not like everyone's gonna get the perfect answer if they call- Right

all the OB units.

In my mind, I picture, we try to as much as we can.

Mm-hmm.

The patient's census changes, so we'll br- we'll call a new nurse.

Like, you're probably gonna get something like that.

Which is essentially saying, "We're doing the best we can. Sometimes it's not the way it's supposed to be," right?

Like, I, I feel like that's probably the answer a lot of patients would get.

Yeah.

Maybe someone saying, like, "We don't have to answer that question," which would be a little bit of a red flag.

But really it's that, to me, the idea for, you know, those listening who are about to be this patient of, like, "Well, what do I do in the moment?"

Which is great, and I think that idea of escalating can sound so dramatic, right?

Mm-hmm.

But it's the same thing for if you're not meshing with your nurse and you feel like you gotta maybe fire them or see if someone else- Yeah ... is available, you're gonna have to escalate that and maybe speak to the charge nurse instead and see if that's a possibility for you, too.

So, and maybe not to think that escalating or asking to speak to the charge nurse is a bad thing, right?

They're available.

That's why they're there.

I know that you're a charge nurse.

Like, that's your job, is to, to keep an eye on all the things going on in all the rooms, so.

Yeah.

We can call it elevating, you know?

I like it.

We're, we're, we're not-

Elevating the issue.

We're elevating the issue.

We're,

we're making- Sounds a little more glorious, though.

Right.

Like, like, I like it, though.

Escalation just sounds bad, like you're being confrontational.

No.

And I think when people hear some of this vocab, even intervention, I talk about this a lot, and we don't have to go down this road, but it seems so negative, right?

But interventions are like interruptions, right?

Sometimes these interruptions are good.

They're exactly what you need.

Sometimes they're not, right?

Yeah.

So to not necessarily hear these words sometimes and instantly be like, "Ugh, I need to be freaked out right now," that-

Right

... Lo: yeah, that sometimes it's actually on the way to something better.

So yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, you've mentioned the word birth vibes when you were answering some of these questions.

I know that's the name of your book.

Mm-hmm.

My one follow-up question on that, and then let us know when it releases, 'cause I know it's coming up, is What's that difference for you between, like, birth vibes and birth plan?

Just say that one more time for us so we get- Sure ... why did Jen think she needed to write a book, 'cause there's a lot of birth books out there.

So what is it so important about birth vibes, I'm air quoting here, versus- Yeah ... yeah, something

else.

So I noticed, that there were a lot of people coming into the hospital with very specific birth plans, but it didn't Like, things could go perfect on a birth plan.

Check, check, check, check, check, check, check.

Everything exactly what you said you wanted could go, could happen that way, but you could still leave that experience feeling unheard, disrespected, unsupported.

But on the the flip side of that, you could have a birth plan that goes completely off the rails, but leave feeling communicated with, supported, and feel positive about that experience if the other things around your experience held true.

So it's like building a cocoon of safety around you so that even if things go different on your birth plan than you thought, that you still can have a positive experience.

So things like how do you need to be communicated with in order to feel that you have been communicated with, empathetically, compassionately, and accurately with all the information you need?

How do you adapt when things, go different than you, than you thought?

What kind of environment, do you want to have?

Like, what do you want the vibes of your room to feel like?

Do you want it to be, like, joyous and happy and light?

Do you want it to be somber and quiet and peaceful?

Like, the vibes of the room are important.

Who are you bringing with you, and what are they going to do for you?

Because I think preparing those people for helping you is super important, and choosing those people carefully because sometimes the person who makes the most sense on the outside, like relationally to you, may not be who you need by your side, and that's okay to figure out, and it's okay to choose somebody that may not make the most sense.

And then other things like closure and, you know, even if your birth goes awesome, having all the questions about what happened answered before you leave 'cause I know that you and I both know that sometimes you can hear a birth story that to us is, like, super normal, like very normal things that happen during labor and birth, but it gets instilled and imprinted on the memory so traumatically because the questions that they had were not answered.

So, you know, like, transition can be super traumatic if you don't know what to expect.

Getting an epidural can be super traumatic if you didn't know what to expect.

So I think that having those questions answered before you leave is all part of the birth, birth vibes experience.

But, it's like a cocoon of safety birth plan, right?

So it's planning for the things that are plan-able, that you can really, bank on so that even if things go awesome, even if things go weird, that you still have this cocoon of safety around you- Yeah ... so that you can feel that, you can leave that experience feeling positive about it.

Yeah.

No, it makes perfect sense, and I think we jump right to the birth plan with, like, "I don't wanna push on my back, and I don't wanna..."

You know, and it, it's very, like, very scenario specific.

Yeah.

And we forget, like, how do I feel in that moment of birth, or how do I wanna feel in whatever- Yeah ... that moment is.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

No, I love it.

When are you officially releasing?

I know you did that special pre-release for those who are already pregnant, but- Yeah

when is it available?

It comes out May 5th.

You can pre-order right now so that whenever it comes out on May 5th, it should be at your door.

Okay.

Sounds good.

Last question that I ask everyone, well, kind of two, but people probably already mostly know.

Where can they find you online?

I know your handle's the same on all the places.

And then what is one thing in your life right now that's bringing you a ton of joy?

Oh, that's a, such a, such a sweet question.

You can find me anywhere at Jen Ha- you can just look up Jen Hamilton and you'll find me.

What's bringing me joy is my chickens.

I have, I have, I call them my biological children because I'm now hatching, like, eggs that my own baby chickens have- Chickens

made

made.

Like you're a grandmother.

A

grandmother- Yeah, you are

... Lo: of

chickens.

And so we have this coop outside, and I go out there, just sit out there, and I just watch them.

I just look at them being cute.

They look like softballs with fur on them right now.

They're so cute.

They're

cute.

Yeah.

Well, as someone who follows you on the platforms, I know that we get a peek at your chickens sometimes.

Yeah.

So you guys, if you want chicken content, follow her.

I got

it.

Come

along.

She's got it for you.

All right.

Well, good luck with all the book stuff.

I'm excited to read and to listen.

Thank you.

It's available on audio as well, you guys.

I can't remember if I mentioned that here or with her before, but I feel like the audio version's gonna be pretty great too.

It's lovely.

It's fun.

So just so you know.

Thanks, Jen, it was such a pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.

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