Toni Shelbourne on Tellington TTouch for Dogs: Calming Anxious & Reactive Dogs Through Touch

What if a few simple circles of your hand could help your anxious dog feel safe again?

In this episode, host Nathan Dunleavy sits down with Toni Shelbourne, a Tellington TTouch practitioner, behaviourist and author with nearly 30 years of experience working with everything from family pets to socialised wolves.

Toni explains how TTouch uses gentle, non-habitual touch to release tension patterns, calm the nervous system, and put dogs into a "thinking" state where real learning and change becomes possible. From helping dogs recover from injury to supporting those with separation anxiety, noise phobias, and chronic pain, this episode shows just how far a little intentional touch can go.

In this episode:

✅ What Tellington TTouch actually is, and how it differs from massage

✅ Why posture affects behaviour, and how tension patterns show up as fear or reactivity

✅ How to read calming signals so you can support your dog before they reach a fear response

✅ Why the right harness and lead setup can transform how your dog walks and feels

✅ Simple techniques anyone can try at home, starting with ear strokes

✅ How TTouch can help dogs eat and learn even when they're too anxious for traditional training

✅ Why TTouch can support recovery alongside physiotherapy and vet care

Key takeaways:

• TTouch works by moving the skin, not the muscles, to access neural pathways and calm the nervous system

• You don't need to be an expert. Simple techniques done with the right intent can create real change

• Recovery time from fear or stress often shortens with regular TTouch, building resilience over time

• Dogs that mask pain often show it first through behaviour change, and TTouch can help guardians notice

• It works best as one piece of the puzzle, alongside training, enrichment, and veterinary support

Toni's website

Toni's Facebook page

🐾 Subscribe to The Yappy Hour for more conversations that help you understand, connect with, and care for your dog.

🐕 Find a Tellington TTouch practitioner in your area on Yappily

📧 Curious whether TTouch could help your dog? Start with a single ear stroke tonight and see what happens.

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who

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want to better understand and connect

with their four-legged companions.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy,

and today we're exploring a gentle,

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powerful method that's helping dogs

feel calmer, safer, and more understood.

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Tellington TTouch.

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Joining me is Toni Shelbourne, a TTouch

expert, behaviourist and author with

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decades of experience supporting animals

from domestic pets to wild wolves.

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Toni's work focuses on

using touch and movement.

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To help dogs regulate their emotions,

build confidence, and strengthen

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their bond with their humans.

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Whether your dog is anxious, reactive,

elderly, or just needs a little extra

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support, this episode will open your

eyes to a whole new way of connecting.

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Se.

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Grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to The Yappy

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Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy.

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I'm so excited to bring you

another episode of The Yappy Hour.

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Today my guest joining me

today is Toni Shelbourne.

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Welcome to the Yappy Hour.

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Toni, how are you doing?

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Toni Shelbourne: Oh,

thank you for inviting me.

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I'm really good.

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Thank you.

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How you

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yes, very well.

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Very, very well.

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It's sunny in Southampton at

the moment, so we're all good.

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Toni Shelbourne: Excellent.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I've

really been looking forward to this

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chat, Toni, so thanks for coming on.

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So for those that might be new to

your work, could you just give us

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a little insight into your journey

with animals and how you came to

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specialize in Tellington TTouch please.

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Toni Shelbourne: Yeah, sure.

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So I grew up in a family that

basically was like a zoo in our house.

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There was always some injured animal or

somebody like bringing an animal home,

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like dad brought kittens home from, you

know, power stations he was working on.

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People gave us dog, you know,

it was just like, it was mad.

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And, and I always loved animals.

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My first memory was leaning over a pram

and playing with my dog's, puppies,

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you know, and, and that was like,

I was so young, you know, for years

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I thought it was, you know, years.

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I thought it was just

a, you know, a dream.

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But my mom said, no, you used to do that.

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And really.

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Yeah.

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And, and then really I sort of, kind of

got hooked on sort of acting and stuff.

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So I did drama and art and dance

at college and, and while I was at

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college, a group of us did this charity

walk and we ended up in Brighton.

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And it was back in the days when there

was like dolphins in a, you know,

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in, down, in a facility down there.

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And I spent the off afternoon watching

them and I was so moved by it because they

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just went round this tiny little pool.

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And every time they got to me, they

just stopped and looked, and then they

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do another circuit of this tiny pool.

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And that evening I was just

sat on the beach going, I

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really wanna work with animals.

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I don't really wanna do theater stuff.

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And I, and that's how it started really.

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I then was really fortunate to get

a job with Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

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Toni Shelbourne: in Kettles, you know,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: half grand a year.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: Working with them.

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Yeah.

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All those years ago, living

in, you know, all that stuff.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

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Toni Shelbourne: And I just had a career,

yeah, a career going through guide dogs.

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And it was near, I got to say to,

I was actually a head office and

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I was actually in charge of the

training programs for, for kennels.

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So I was a technical staff training

officer and a friend of mine started

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telling me about this thing that

she'd started to learn with horses,

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which involved moving the skin around

in this funny way and having like

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an hour long conversation with her.

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And she showed me some of the TTouches,

some of the body work that we do.

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I kind of, kind of really feel a

difference on myself and she was so

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passionate about it that I, I kind

of got really interested and I went

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home that evening and I was sharing a

house with a friend of mine who was,

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got a rotti, who had arthritis in his

elbows and often would settle down.

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You know, we'd often have to give

him a painkiller in the evening.

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And it was one of those nights and I just

started doing this little circle on him

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that I'd had less than an hour's tuition.

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Well then 20 minutes he was fast

asleep, snoring and we didn't

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have to give him a painkiller.

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And the next day he actually

looked more sound than normal.

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And I was like, this stuff really works.

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I need to learn more.

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And I dunno how I managed it, but I

got guide dogs to send me on the very

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first practitioner training course to

run out of the UK for companion animals.

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And that was back in 97.

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So three years later, three

or four of us qualified.

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There was like, you know, a handful of

people in the UK that was doing TTouch.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: kind of, it kind

of coincided with guide dogs going,

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well, can you do another major move?

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And I'd already done three or four moves

for them, and I was like, I've had enough.

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So took redundancy instead and

just started doing my TTouch stuff.

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Just started my business you

know, did it alongside other jobs.

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One on my other job was was

working at the UK Wolf Conservation

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Trust with socialized wolves,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: really helps you to

kind of hone your observation skills.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

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And then that led on to me

writing, and then, yeah, then

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I, I, I upped my qualification

to be a behaviourist as well.

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And

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: so, yeah, so eight

books later and many qualifications, and

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about 38 years of working with animals.

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Here we are,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You don't look old enough, Toni.

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Wow.

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My gosh.

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What's the secret?

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Toni Shelbourne: started very young.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I, I knew you were an author, but

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I didn't know it was eight books.

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'cause you've got the

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Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

books haven't you as well?

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: yeah,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: books.

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Toni Shelbourne: yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: amazing.

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What, what a career so far.

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Absolutely fascinating.

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So thank you so much for sharing that.

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I went on a, a Tell it in TTouch workshop

when I first started my dog training

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career about course six, seven years ago.

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So I learned, I learned about it then.

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But it was just a weekend workshop and

I've got Lin one of Linda's books as well.

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And I, I'd love to learn a bit more

about it 'cause I've got my own

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dog now that's got sa and he's got

chronic back pain, it's all linked.

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Toni Shelbourne: Mm-hmm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: we

have a physiotherapist comes, comes

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to the house and she does some laser

therapy and she does some sort of

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massage and she was talking about T touch

and then was like, oh yeah, t touch.

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And they're saying that I

was gonna be chatting to you.

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So yeah, I'd love to learn a bit

more, but for our listeners then,

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and people watching the tellin t

touch method, what, what is it?

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Let's talk about it.

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What's the basics if we, we can, and can

you just explain how it works at all?

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Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

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So do you want me to go into a

little bit about the history first,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Toni Shelbourne: it comes from?

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

it comes from?

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Toni Shelbourne: So yeah, so T Touch

has been going for like 50 years.

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We've just had our 50 year anniversary.

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It's worldwide.

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It was founded by a lady called Linda

Ellington Jones and her sister Robin,

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who are our kind of senior instructors.

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You know, Linda's now in her

eighties, still teaching, still

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roaming around the world, and she

was always working with horses was

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a very well renowned horse woman.

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And back in the seventies,

she sort of decided there was

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something missing in what she does.

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She always used a very kind

method to help the animals, you

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know, reach their full potential.

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But she was, she asked, you know, she's

very intuitive, Linda, so she went off

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and kind of did some sort of traveling

and, and she met a Moshe Feldenkrais,

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which is an is he's an Israeli

physicist who founded the Feldenkrais

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awareness through Movement Method.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: right.

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Toni Shelbourne: Which is a human

method that works with the, you

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know, with the neural pathways of the

body and the, you know, everything.

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And Linda, like learn to be a,

a practitioner in this method.

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And then of course, started to

play around with it with the

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horses and had amazing results.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: But it was then

people tried to kind of learn off her.

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And the, some of the exercises with

Feldenkrais are so tiny and intricate,

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it's really hard to sort of see

what she's doing and teach that.

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So she just came up with this way of kind

of moving the skin in non habitual ways.

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And we do circles, we do lifts, we

do strokes, we do working with the

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extremities like ears, tails, feet

and develop this whole different

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method and, and from the body

work, which we call the t touches.

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Then came the movement exercises.

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So the confidence course, so moving

that whole body non habitually.

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And then came bits of equipment, you

know, so special types of harnesses

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and leads, et cetera, et cetera.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: like body wraps, you

know, people are more probably familiar

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now with things like Thundershirts where

they will come from body wraps and you

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would be amazed about how many things

people use in every day dog training world

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now that actually have their roots in T

touch, and people just don't realize it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: So I think we were

the first people, I can't completely

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prove it, but for years and years and

years before it became popular, we were

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using a front ring on harnesses and two

double and double ended leads, you know?

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So that's, yeah, that foundation

has come from us as well.

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So yeah, it's a whole system

of work that really, the way to

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explain it really succinctly is

that posture affects behavior.

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So when you are outta balance

physically, you get outta balance

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mentally and emotionally as well.

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So if you think about a time when

you've been sick or injured or

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you're just not in a good place,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Toni Shelbourne: tolerance of the

world kind of diminishes, you know,

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you don't want noisy things around you.

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You get annoyed if someone who like, you

know cuts in front of you in a queue or,

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but other days when you're feeling like

really confident and happy and well,

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you kind of just blow these things off

and go, oh, it doesn't really matter.

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Or you talk down that difficult

customer at work, you know?

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: and it's all because,

you know, everything's linked.

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So, you know, we know that when dogs

have behavioral issues it can get,

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you know, obviously stuck in the brain

quite, you know, you know deeply and

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it's quite difficult to shift that.

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But we also know that you can hold

molecules of emotion in the cells

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of your body so we can access the

brain and access, changing those

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behaviors by doing the body work.

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So it's different from massage.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Toni Shelbourne: We are not

working with the muscles, we're

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literally moving the skin around.

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Taps into neural pathways, has lovely

release releases of things like

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serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin.

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But we also know from experiments

that we can actually help the

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animals come into a more thinking

rational part of their brain.

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And we do, we did that actually the

same experiment 20 years apart, where we

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just read brainwaves from the animals.

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And apparently if you have all of your

brainwaves very active at the same time,

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you are in a very deep state of learning.

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And that's what happens when you do

the body work or you go through the

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confidence course with the animals.

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So

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: how I explain that

to my clients is that it just puts

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them in a thinking rational part of

their brain so they can choose to

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do something different other than.

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Maybe reacting in a survival

way, you know, keeping them out

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of those, those fear responses.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

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Toni Shelbourne: yeah,

so quite a lot going on.

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A lot of people just think it's

that thing that just moves, circles

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around and calms 'em down, but

there's a load more to it than that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: more.

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Toni Shelbourne: I, yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

it's absolutely fascinating.

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And literally, I didn't even

know half of what you've just

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said, so it's so, so interesting.

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Really, really interesting.

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So you describe it more than sort

of touch and inverted commas.

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There's a deeper message

behind the method, isn't there?

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'cause you are obviously doing

stuff with, you are activating

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the nervous system and stuff.

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Is that right?

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Toni Shelbourne: Well, all of the

systems really we're working with

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the prop perceptive system because

of course, posture affects behavior.

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So we can influence them to be able

to use their bodies in the best

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way possible that they, they can.

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And then that will then obviously have

that, that knock on a faint to the

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mental and the emotional state as well.

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So, you know, obviously if you

have an animal that has an issue

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like, arthritis or hip displays or

something, we're not gonna change that.

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But what we can also do is just

help the whole body to work, you

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know, as efficiently as possible.

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You know, you get referred pain

and tension and you know, if you've

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injured yourself, other bits of

your body start to fall apart.

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So we can kind of just really

help with that as well.

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But yeah, we, we are tapping

into neural pathways.

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Linda talks about turning light

bulbs back off on, in, in dark areas.

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So if we, yeah, if we.

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Have a trauma, whether that's physical

or mental, or something's happened

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to us or we've just, you know, had

a difficult birth, whatever it is,

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we can hold tension in the body and

those tension patterns will literally

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promote a particular behavior.

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So we often see dogs who are

fearful, whether that's noises,

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people, other dogs, situations,

environments, you know, they always

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hold tension in the heightened quarter.

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And the tail

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

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Toni Shelbourne: dogs who hold

tension in their mouth, you know, very

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much linked to emotions and things.

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So you get dogs who are very

emotional, might be more

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barky, bity chewy, for example.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Toni Shelbourne: tension patterns show

up as things like hotspot, cold spots,

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areas that don't wanna be touched,

areas where the skin feels tight.

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Maybe there's a hair change, like a

swirl or a curl where it should be

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flat or a different quality to it, or

maybe an area of dandruff, for example.

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We play really close attention to all

of those observations that we see.

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How did animal moves, how they

respond to us touching how

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it feels when we touch them.

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And depending on where those tension

patterns are, is where we would

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then probably target the work more.

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As long as they are comfortable

with being touched and tolerant.

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You know, sometimes what we have

to do is just find ways to get into

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those areas that doesn't upset them.

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So it's very much reading their

body language, their little nuances

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of, of communication as well,

that, you know, that breath rate

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change, that eye expression change.

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So maybe that little shift away from us

if we touch in a particular place, that

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calming signal, we're watching all of

those tiny little signals so that we can

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work with them rather than against them.

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Basically,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it,

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Toni Shelbourne: it builds up trust.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

it's absolutely fascinating and I think

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I probably should, I do want to, I should

learn more about, particularly, like I say

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Toni Shelbourne: I.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Bailey, that's got separation anxiety

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and then he is got this back pain.

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So he's on like painkillers and like

stuff for his sa but like obviously we've

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had like hydrotherapy had physiotherapy

sessions and now the physio's come into

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our house and doing the laser therapy

and But I think it'd bere, I think it'd

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be really interesting if I sort of learn

a bit more about it and it might help

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him, you know, with his pain and stuff.

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Toni Shelbourne: See it was certainly

just, you know, what you find with

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animals that have got ongoing health

issues is they feel more vulnerable.

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So doing the touch work can really

help boost their confidence, allow

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them to be their own emotional

support a little bit more.

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But it also sometimes can allow

them the physio to do more so.

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I'll tell you a story about a wolf

that I rehabbed from a spinal injury.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: and I was

working with the u yeah.

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When I was working with the UK

Wolf Conservation Trust, one of our

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European walls, the big male al Alba.

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We think what happened is he ran into

a tree state while looking over his

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shoulder, being chased by his sisters.

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I mean, literally this tree state was

massive and he split it in half and he,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: kind of had a fracture

in, in his neck, which obviously

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affected, you know, a lot of his body.

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And he couldn't stand for a few

days, you know, and, and the vet was

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like, well, well, you know, he may

never stand again, and if he does

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stand, it's gonna take eight weeks.

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And we were like, well, look, we are

gonna try, because he, you know, you

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could still see there was life in

his eyes and he was a strong fit boy.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Toni Shelbourne: I just immediately

started doing TTouch with him every day.

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And what I found was when I did the TTouch

stuff on him, it was easier than to do

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the physio exercises if I just tried to do

the physio exercise and I'd get resistance

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and he'd be like, don't do that.

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I don't really want it.

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But if I did the TTouch first, it

sort of warmed the body up, relaxed

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him a little bit, got him in that

right state of mind for me to then be

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able to achieve the bigger movements

with him that I needed to do.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Toni Shelbourne: And it seemed like every

time I did some work with him, either

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that evening or the next day, he'd have a

shift and become, you know, more mobile.

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He actually got up, I'm trying to

remember, I think it was six weeks when

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he finally stood he was back out in the

enclosure within eight weeks, definitely.

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Whereas we'd had him

in a hospital wing and,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

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Toni Shelbourne: and he lived another

four years and he's, you know, he

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still let me do tee touch on him.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's absolutely amazing.

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What a remarkable story.

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Gosh.

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Toni Shelbourne: and this is a wolf

that didn't really want many people

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to touch him, but he was like, Nope.

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Yep, you can do that to me.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And you

said like, it comes back to trust as well.

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So he trusted you

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Toni Shelbourne: Yeah,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

to do that.

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Toni Shelbourne: yeah, yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so,

you must feel so great about that.

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Toni Shelbourne: It was just one of

the most amazing life experiences ever.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wow.

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It's, it's absolutely fascinating.

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So have, what kind of changes

have you seen in dogs once they

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experience regular t touch work?

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Toni?

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Toni Shelbourne: Well it, there's such a

range because TTO can help with anything.

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If you think about things that are

emotionally based, the noise phobias,

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separate anxieties you know, fear of

others, you know, their own species,

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fear of us, whatever emotional issue it

may be, you can really get to the point

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where they can start to trust you more.

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So, I've worked with quite a lot

of dogs that have come from abroad.

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You know, they're very shut down.

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I get called in, they've been sat in

a bed for like, sometimes months and

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not moving, and you can really start

to make that connection with them and

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help them just to navigate the world.

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And, and let's face it, our world

these days is not dog friendly.

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You know, they really struggle to be

dogs, you know, 'cause we just can't allow

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them to, and you know, often it's really

difficult for people to understand dogs

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as well, so you get this interspecies

miscommunication, whereas when you start

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to do the TTouch stuff and you start

to really show people, well, they're

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struggling because, you know, partly

because of how they feel physically.

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And if we can change that for them

and release those tension patterns

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by doing this really simple thing,

if we can start listening to them

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because we are looking at those little

nuances of communication, we can

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really help them build in confidence.

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Now, of course you get some dogs who are.

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You know, so traumatized with

things that they're never gonna

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completely get over that anxiety.

400

'cause that anxiety might be genetic

based, it may be 'cause of a trauma.

401

You know, I often say to my clients,

if you were on a tube on seven

402

seven, you'd never like tubes again.

403

So how can we expect a dog to be happy

around other dogs when it's been attacked,

404

when they, he or she's been attacked?

405

So it it, for me, it's about

giving the caregivers a way

406

of supporting their animals.

407

So what I tend to find is the dogs

will then start to go, okay, I'm

408

not feeling great in this situation.

409

Can you help me?

410

And then I give the tools to

the, their people to help them.

411

And they're like, okay, I don't have

to deal with that situation myself now

412

'cause I know you are dealing with it.

413

I know you are keeping me safe.

414

And that's what I really love.

415

I do a lot of work with reactive

dogs, that term reactive,

416

whatever you wanna call them.

417

Fearful, anxious

418

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

spicy is a new buzzword.

419

Toni Shelbourne: Oh, is it?

420

Wow.

421

They're not spicy.

422

They're just, oh my goodness.

423

Okay.

424

So yeah, so yeah, I see some really

amazing shifts and I work with a local

425

rescue center as well and we work with,

you know, a lot of troubled dogs and we

426

work really hard before they go into the

homes to make sure that they are in that

427

best place possible to be successful.

428

And then we support them.

429

I support them when they

go into the homes well.

430

So we are keeping them in their

forever homes instead of them bouncing

431

back to rescue, which ultimately

is cheaper for the rescue as well.

432

And obviously much better

for the dogs or cats.

433

'cause I work with cats as well.

434

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, you do cats too.

435

Oh, wow.

436

That's,

437

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

438

Yeah.

439

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

exciting.

440

It must be so rewarding Toni doing that

sort of work as well with the rescues.

441

Toni Shelbourne: It's lovely just

watching these dogs come in and struggling

442

and then going out, you know, really

growing in, in the kennel environment.

443

Yes, they struggle, but we

support them really well.

444

And then yeah, flourishing

when they go home.

445

And we've had some that have been

quite long-termers, you know, and when

446

they get home and they settle and they

thrive, then that is just amazing for us.

447

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, wow.

448

That's, that's lovely.

449

It's such a lovely thing

you're doing there.

450

Brilliant.

451

Let's move on to our next section,

which is all about the emotional

452

and physical benefits of TTouch.

453

So we've probably touched on

a few things already, but what

454

ki what kinds of emotional

challenges can t touch help with?

455

Yeah, so we have, we have touched on it.

456

So separation, anxiety, noise, phobias,

are they the most common ones you see?

457

Toni Shelbourne: As you know what, there

isn't anything that it couldn't help with.

458

It's easier to list the things that

it's not, and actually I can't think

459

of anything that it wouldn't help with.

460

I mean, with my behavioral work,

and I'm seeing cases every day,

461

I am seeing dogs day in, day out.

462

The foundation of what I do with all

those dogs is t touch because I think

463

it puts them in that learning state.

464

You know, when you, you have

a dog that's really anxious.

465

Just try trying to, even trying to

do things like counter conditioning

466

with them is difficult 'cause

they might not want to eat.

467

You know, and I often people

say to me, well I can't do that

468

'cause their dogs don't eat.

469

And I'm like, it's okay.

470

I've got another method we can use touch.

471

And you'll get those dogs to the

point where they will eat outside

472

because they are emotionally then in

a place where they can learn, they

473

can listen, they can accept that food.

474

So for me, you know, it's a really useful

way to start with those dogs who would

475

really struggle with what you would

call traditional, you know, behavior

476

modification or whatever you wanna

call it for those traditional methods.

477

So, you know, it's, but I could,

you know, anything from just pulling

478

on a lead, you know, some dogs are

just not particularly well balanced

479

through their bodies and therefore

can't walk on a lead, on a loose lead.

480

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

481

Toni Shelbourne: you know, and sometimes

it's because we are pulling back or it's

482

the wrong equipment, or people have been

told the wrong methods, you know, and

483

you get that old method of people saying,

well, just keep bringing them back to you.

484

Well, that, for them, that's just

part of the behavior chain, right?

485

They're like, oh, I go out in front,

my person brings me back and gives me a

486

treat, and then I go out in front again.

487

Well, you know, and you're like,

yeah, that's not gonna work, is it?

488

So, so you kind of don't, you

know, you, you are looking at

489

their, their physical balance.

490

So can they actually walk with

the same weight on all four feet?

491

Can they be balancing themselves?

492

You know, if we give them more lead.

493

Often they rebalance themselves anyway.

494

You know, it's often because we've got

a tightly the wrong equipment on them.

495

We're walking at the wrong

pace, you know, whatever it is.

496

So, going back to your original question,

you know, anything and everything that

497

I work with the foundation bit, and, you

know, I think of it as a jigsaw puzzle.

498

So TTouch in the middle is big chunk,

and then I chunk other things onto it.

499

Whether that's, you know, calming

products, whether that's counter

500

conditioning, whether that's kind

of like a bit of training, a bit of

501

fun, a bit of enrichment, whatever.

502

It's, we bolt it all together and

then you can help those animals to

503

be, you know, nice rounded, adaptable,

thriving, rather than just surviving.

504

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

505

I love that Five rather than surviving.

506

And like you said, it's

probably about the equipment.

507

So obviously the two point attachment

harnesses and the double-ended leads, that

508

all helps, doesn't it, with their sort

of, you know, their balance and stuff that

509

certain types of harnesses and things.

510

Thanks.

511

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah, definitely.

512

And lots of people say, oh, I've

been told not to use a harness.

513

'cause my dog will just pull into it and

they'll, they'll pull into any harness

514

unless you have the right techniques and

the right things attached to that harness.

515

So it is not necessarily the equipment,

it's how you're using that equipment.

516

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

517

Toni Shelbourne: you know, we've, we, we

started off just with a, with a, you know,

518

a fixed lead on the front and the back.

519

We now have our leads

with the sliding handles.

520

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

521

Toni Shelbourne: we

call the harmony leash?

522

We've got the TTouch connectors, which

are like a short strap that goes on the

523

harness and our leave then attaches it

to the, a sliding part in the middle and

524

everything's designed to help that dog.

525

Not really like, and for the person

not to kind of fill that pull.

526

So, you know, when you work with some

clients, it's really hard for them to not

527

tighten up on the lead, but if they have

a handle that slides or the connector,

528

the dog doesn't feel that as much and

it sort of balance balances out as well.

529

You know, a lot of the time when people

use harnesses with a fixed lead, it

530

pulls and to the side and it then,

you know, it stops the shoulder moving

531

and stuff, which obviously is not good

long term or comfortable for the dog.

532

But when we have those sliding

handles, you know, that harmony

533

leash or the connector, that

doesn't seem to happen as much.

534

And we've got like loads of ways that

we can adjust how we put leads on.

535

So.

536

For me, it's always about what

works for that dog and that person.

537

And that's why T Touch has, has evolved

and have so many different ways of, of,

538

of moving the skin around, of leading

of, you know, all the bits of equipment.

539

'cause we'd have found a dog

that what we used to know and

540

what we did do, didn't work.

541

So we've had to then go, okay,

so what will work for this dog?

542

And then they're like, oh God, that's

great, but can it work for other dogs?

543

So even now our work is evolving.

544

It never stands still.

545

You know, we're always adding on new

things as we learn as the animals

546

teach us because they're our teachers.

547

Right?

548

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: they

are, they're our biggest teachers.

549

That's a common

550

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

551

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

in these podcasts as well.

552

They are our biggest teachers.

553

I was just thinking that lead

that sometimes then feeds

554

down to them, doesn't it?

555

Through the, through the lead and

through the harness, that tension.

556

But you can do something like

striking the lead, can't you?

557

And that helps relieve some

of that tension as well,

558

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah, and that

actually came from the horse world.

559

That came from a lady

called Peggy Cummings,

560

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: right?

561

Toni Shelbourne: does connected

riding, who's very, you know, similar

562

and very kind of in sync with TTouch.

563

And Sarah Fisher started to practice lead

stroking on dogs when she was working

564

in Baty and found that it really worked.

565

I think that's probably about over

20 years ago that we've been stroking

566

the lead and, and started off, like

I say, with horses just to start

567

calming them, slowing them down.

568

But it works beautifully

with dogs 'cause it

569

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

570

Toni Shelbourne: to them more like an

invitation to come with you rather than

571

a, come on, we've gotta come this way.

572

And it just enables

people, their carers to be.

573

Softer on the lead.

574

You know, I've often had clients

who've come, especially with big

575

dogs, and they go, well, I just

have to get really harder with them.

576

I'm like, no, you need to get more gentle.

577

And the minute you start to be really

subtle in your signals, the dogs

578

are like, ah, that's really lovely.

579

And they come into balance and they

listen to you, and you're able to

580

turn them away from triggers or ask

them to go in a different direction.

581

And it's effortless, you know?

582

And it's safer for us because we teach

people not to tense up to use their whole

583

bodies to use to, to lead their dogs.

584

Because, you know, you know, if you

tense your shoulders and the dog pulls

585

you, you're gonna get injuries, right?

586

It's like tensing up in a saddle.

587

If a horse bark, you're

gonna go out the side door.

588

So yeah, it's all about teaching the

people to be in balance and then the

589

dogs can come into balance with them.

590

So, yeah, it's, it's not just about

wanting into the lead, really.

591

It's about both of.

592

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Both ends.

593

The lead.

594

I love that.

595

How does it support our

dogs physically then?

596

Can it be used alongside

physiotherapy and vet care?

597

Toni Shelbourne: So yes, I

mean, obviously we don't treat,

598

diagnose or operate on dogs.

599

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

600

Toni Shelbourne: you know, so the reason

we are able to do the body work is

601

because we're just moving the skin around.

602

Now, we know that it has lots of

effects, but obviously in the UK

603

there's certain laws about what

you can and can't do with the dogs.

604

For me, what I do, if I'm working with

a dog that I know has a health issue,

605

that person might come to me and say,

well, I need help with that health issue.

606

I very much will get the permission

and work cooperatively with the vet.

607

But I do know that I can, I can help.

608

Recovery time by keeping them calmer, you

know, we can help them to be more relaxed.

609

We can for example, I'll

give you an example.

610

My cat that lived with me years ago

had a stomach issue where she'd get

611

pockets of gas in her stomach and

to cure it, she would drink loads of

612

water and then pu it up on my carpet.

613

So, but if I saw her going into one

of these episodes, if I stroked her

614

left ear, which I would first start

to touch it, it would be ice cold,

615

and she'd kind of pull it back on her

head and she'd kind of growl at me.

616

And by the third or fourth stroke,

the warmth would come into the ear.

617

She'd kind of released the

tension and she'd give a big buck

618

and then she wouldn't be sick.

619

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, bless.

620

Toni Shelbourne: I know, and, and

you know, for yourself, you know, if

621

I've got a headache, if I feel sick,

if I am a bit tired and I'm on a long

622

journey, I will play with my ears.

623

And that's always really helpful.

624

And we know from humans who now have

TTouch, 'cause TTouch has gone full

625

circle, it's gone back to humans as well.

626

'cause so you can dot TTouch for you.

627

And we know for people, they tell us,

you know, that they have, they do have

628

pain relief when people do t touch, that

they feel better, more mobile, et cetera.

629

Course we don't really know from

the dog's point of view what they're

630

feeling, but what I always say to

people is, we can't do any damage.

631

You know, we, I always say to the

vets if they're worried, look,

632

I'm just moving the skin around.

633

I'm not manipulating, I'm not

getting into the muscles, so I

634

don't need to know n and physiology.

635

I'm just helping them to be a

bit more relaxed and helping them

636

through that recovery period.

637

And, and for me, you know, that's

kind of a, a win-win, isn't it?

638

You know, if we could just work

together as a team, you know, always

639

talk about, you know, it takes a

village to kind of raise a child.

640

Oh, I think it's the same for a dog.

641

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it is.

642

And obviously with the vets as

well, like a lot of them are

643

coming round to more holistic,

complimentary therapies, aren't they?

644

Whereas before it was quite

rigid and they probably wouldn't

645

want in a physio or hydro.

646

And I guess

647

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah,

648

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

approaches that they're, they're

649

coming around to as well.

650

Toni Shelbourne: getting there slowly,

depending on the vet, but yeah.

651

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

on the vet.

652

Yeah.

653

So have you got a case, probably

maybe your own pet to like where

654

it's made a dramatic difference

in a dog's behavior or, or how?

655

I guess the wolf as well.

656

Really Where T

657

Toni Shelbourne: Well, yeah.

658

You know what, where do I start?

659

I've got so many in, in my head, really.

660

Pretty much every single dog I meet

has some amazing story to tell,

661

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

662

Toni Shelbourne: know, some of my

reactive dogs who are now able to

663

calmly walk down the street without

reaction to a dog over the road.

664

Or, you know, if they start

to get a bit anxious, we can

665

settle and down with t touch.

666

I do a lot of work with dogs who

are fearful of the vets or are

667

being frightened by groomers.

668

So getting them used

to, again, being able to

669

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Ah, yes.

670

Toni Shelbourne: body touch and that

grooming equipment coming towards them, or

671

administration of, of you know, treatments

and things, especially if it's ongoing.

672

So, yeah, the, you know,

amazing cases about the ones

673

I love the most is the ones.

674

Where dogs come and seek

their people out for help.

675

So you mentioned earlier

about noise phobia.

676

So a lot of the work that I do around

obviously firework season is with

677

dogs who are frightened of fireworks.

678

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

679

Toni Shelbourne: of people who take, you

say to me, my dog comes and seeks me out.

680

My dog comes and kind of asks for

that touch, rather than running off

681

and hiding or bolting out of, you

know, out of the park or whatever.

682

It's,

683

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

684

Toni Shelbourne: the dog that I talked

about at the beginning, Jake, the

685

Rotweiler, who was my start of my journey.

686

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

687

Toni Shelbourne: For the rest of

his life, he would come and seek

688

me out if he just needed the work.

689

And he literally, I remember one day

going to a visit, his person, his

690

person was working in a horse yard and

he just used to spend the day running

691

around with the other dogs at the yard.

692

And I went, was walking down to

see her, and he just kept coming

693

in front of me and just stopping.

694

And I was like, take care.

695

Come on.

696

What you doing?

697

Get outta the way, mate.

698

And he was like, no,

no, I need to be here.

699

And I reached out and I just started

doing a few circles and his whole body

700

just went, oh, thank goodness for that.

701

And I was like, oh, okay.

702

You needed me.

703

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

704

Toni Shelbourne: So, yeah.

705

Really sweet.

706

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

love that.

707

And

708

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

709

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

mean, sometimes what he's blessing,

710

they might have a bit of a bad rep,

like the bigger dogs, but really

711

they're just big softies and they,

712

Toni Shelbourne: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

713

They really are.

714

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

715

Thank you.

716

Let's move on to TTouch for

the everyday dog Guardian.

717

And

718

Toni Shelbourne: Mm-hmm.

719

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: some

people may assume that it's only for

720

professionals, Toni, but can everyday

guardians use t touch at home or not?

721

Toni Shelbourne: Absolutely.

722

Like I said, you know, every day I'm

teaching people how to do this work,

723

and the great thing is you don't even

have to be really proficient at it.

724

I've had some clients and you look at

them, you go, you're not quite doing that.

725

Right?

726

But the dogs are having amazing

shifts in their behavior.

727

You know, they're much calmer,

they're more connected.

728

You know, it's more, sometimes I

think it's more about the intent

729

of what you're doing as well.

730

So, you know, you're just being able

to help them come onto that stage.

731

You know, it is really great for

building bonds, whether that's a new

732

dog that's come in to you from rescue,

whether it's because they going into

733

a period of change in their life,

like they've moved house, for example.

734

Or

735

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

736

Toni Shelbourne: a, one of the, A

partners left and there's been a trauma

737

or something's happened to the dogs.

738

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

739

Toni Shelbourne: The

people can just use that.

740

And the great thing is that it helps

the people feel better as well.

741

Like with the firework issue, the

worst thing in the world is watching

742

your dog suffer with fireworks.

743

Right?

744

You know, you feel helpless,

you feel angry, but if you have

745

something to do that, you know,

makes them feel better, then that's

746

beneficial for their people as well.

747

So it can actually help the

person as well as the dog.

748

But yeah, anybody and everyone can use it.

749

I've had children doing it, you know,

obviously on Safe Dogs and under

750

supervision you know, all the way up to,

you know, people who maybe have limited

751

ability, you know, mobility issues,

752

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: right.

753

Toni Shelbourne: people.

754

Anyone can use this work.

755

You know, it is not magic.

756

You just need two hands

and a bit of an open mind.

757

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you do.

758

And I guess, like you say, like

preparing for changes at home.

759

Like if they're having a baby,

a lot of people have a dog,

760

then they bring a baby in

761

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

762

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

and all of a sudden the dog's like,

763

what the, how's this screaming go?

764

What's going on?

765

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

766

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

could use it in that situation as well.

767

Toni Shelbourne: Absolutely.

768

Yeah.

769

I work with quite a few people

who actually prepare for their,

770

you know, their dogs for that,

that transitional period.

771

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

772

Oh, I just love how it's just

got, it's just got so many

773

amazing uses and benefits.

774

It's brilliant.

775

Toni Shelbourne: And even if your dog

doesn't have an issue, it's just a

776

really lovely way of being with them.

777

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

778

Toni Shelbourne: dog doesn't

have to have an issue at all.

779

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No,

I bet it just helps cement that bond

780

and that building, that relationship,

doesn't it with your dog really?

781

Or your

782

Toni Shelbourne: And I see, I see clients

who have got really great bonds with their

783

dogs, but that bond just gets even better

when they start doing the TTouch stuff.

784

I mean, years ago when I was training

as a practitioner the dog that

785

lived with me at the time, buzz,

you know, he was, you know, he and I

786

were like, you know, soulmates, you

know, he was just like my heart dog.

787

But I could not believe how

much my relationship grew

788

after I did the TJ thing.

789

And we already had this amazing bond.

790

And all through his life, you know,

it was just like, okay, you're,

791

this is happening to you, right?

792

Let's, let's prepare you for this.

793

Let's do that.

794

And he was just amazing.

795

Absolutely amazing.

796

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Just strengthens that bond.

797

You know, what more could you want?

798

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

799

And even my, sorry, even my, even my cat.

800

So when I was learning as a TTouch

practitioner, one of my cats

801

used to run away from the phone

ringing or the hairdryer going off,

802

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

803

Toni Shelbourne: I just was

practicing the TTouches on him.

804

And then one day I was

like, is my cat eel?

805

He is not run away from the phone.

806

You know?

807

I was like, oh, I've been

doing too much on him.

808

So even if you just like inadvertently

do stuff, you can start seeing

809

changes in your animals, you know,

it's, it is just amazing to me.

810

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

This one hates the Hoover.

811

I think I'm gonna have to start

doing some 'cause of the Hoover.

812

I'm

813

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

814

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: some

desensitization with the Hoover, but I

815

think I need to do some TTouch with the,

she just hates the, not only that, she

816

hates the Hoover and she hates the mop.

817

We can be mopping the

818

Toni Shelbourne: Great.

819

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: or

we're hoovering and she goes nuts.

820

She

821

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

822

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it.

823

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

824

Yeah.

825

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so I

826

Toni Shelbourne: So, yeah.

827

It's really, I think it's really

important that we put things together.

828

So I, I never use TTouch in isolation.

829

Well, rarely do I use TTouch in isolation,

but sometimes we'll do the TTouch stuff

830

and then you don't have to do the other

stuff because TTouch has already worked.

831

But o obviously other times you

do, then you add in your counter

832

condition, your desolation, whatever.

833

And I think it just helps those

parts to be more effective, quicker,

834

because like I say, the dogs are

in that learning thinking state.

835

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

mm No, I, I absolutely love it.

836

Is there one or two simple techniques

that you could recommend that

837

people could start with at all?

838

I

839

Toni Shelbourne: so obviously it

pretends really on the dogs, you know,

840

what they are gonna tolerate being

touched, and I think people need to

841

really be able to read those breath rate

and eye changes and calming signals.

842

So, you know, if they don't know

about that, go and research it first.

843

But simple things like

stroking their ears.

844

We all stroke our dog's ears and the

majority of dogs are very tolerant of

845

that unless they've had an ear infection

and had to have stuff done to their ears.

846

So if you know your dog is happy to have

their ears stroke, just kind of molding

847

your hand around the ear and doing a

stroke from the base to the tip, just

848

doing one ear at a time and, and like

if the ear is like furled up or curled,

849

you know, or pinned, just unfurling it

and bring it down into a nice relaxed

850

position can be really beneficial because

we know it really helps regulate heart

851

and breath rate and those acupressure

points in the ear for the whole body.

852

So we, we are having that influence

over skeletal systems and internal

853

organs, et cetera, without having

to know where those points are.

854

You know, again, we're

not gonna do any damage.

855

But it might just really help them.

856

And most of our dogs love their ears

being stroked and I think it's probably

857

because they know it really helps them.

858

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, they know it is

859

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

860

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I, this is a bit a bit of a random

861

thing, what I'm about to say, but I've

always played with my partner's ears.

862

My, but I used to do it when

I was younger, so I did it.

863

There's pictures of my brother in the

bouncer I'm playing with his ears.

864

But I've done it into my

adult life with my partners.

865

And now my husband, I'm playing with his

ears at, at like, if he sat on the sofa,

866

let in bed, and I'm fiddling with the

867

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

868

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: ears.

869

Toni Shelbourne: And if you watch

babies, they play with their

870

ears to help them go to sleep.

871

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Steven, I,

872

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

873

They do that.

874

And you know what I do?

875

Same with my husband.

876

If he's like chat, chat, chat in bed,

I'm like, Ryan, just stroke your ears.

877

Within seconds he is asleep.

878

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: my

husband's snoring sometimes and I often

879

straight the ears to stop him snoring,

880

Toni Shelbourne: Excellent,

881

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

so as its uses

882

Toni Shelbourne: But see know on its more

serious note, people have done that when

883

people have had heart attacks or in shock

when they're waiting for ambulances.

884

I've done it on animals that have

had accidents and I've had to sort

885

of say to the vet, look, they look

quite conscious at the moment, but

886

they were really floppy in the car.

887

I was just sort of playing with their

ears and they sort of come round a bit.

888

So, you know, we can really help in

those emergency situations as well.

889

It's not gonna cure them, but you

might give you those vital minutes

890

to get to the vets that might just

save their life because they haven't

891

gotten into sort of deep shock.

892

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

893

Wow.

894

absolutely fascinating.

895

Are

896

Toni Shelbourne: But I love that

you play with your husband's ears.

897

That's brilliant.

898

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

He doesn't love it mine, but I,

899

I love it because for me, for me,

it's, it's soothing for me, it's

900

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

901

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

me is wow.

902

It's I've always seen it as a

comfort thing for me, but it

903

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

904

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

for him or that whoever else.

905

Toni Shelbourne: I was once doing a that

we had a demo years ago, a big dog show.

906

And there was, I was just working on

people showing them what it felt like.

907

And there was a lady who had some

kind of injury with her back, I think.

908

And I went to work on her legs

and she was like, oh, no, no,

909

I can't, I can't tolerate that.

910

And her legs were like, icy cold.

911

And it was a really hot day.

912

And I was like, oh, what I'm gonna do?

913

I was like, okay, well just

start playing with your ears.

914

And she started playing with

one ear and she was like, no.

915

I said, okay, let's

playing with the other one.

916

And she went, oh, that, that really helps.

917

So I could do that when I was driving.

918

And I was like, well, she just

hit that right part in her ear.

919

That was obviously affecting the part

of her body that needed to, and yeah, so

920

you kind of got that instant feedback.

921

I've also had someone on a workshop

and who had tinnitus and, we, I, he

922

was like, or I might have to go home

because you know, it's really bad

923

and the dogs are barking and it's

like really setting my tennis off.

924

And I used him as a dentist, so I was just

doing some T touches on his back to show.

925

And then people were gonna

practice on each other.

926

And I just spent a couple of

minutes doing these circles and

927

he went, oh, I can stay now.

928

My tinnitus is like halved.

929

And I was like, really?

930

That's amazing.

931

You know, and it's not

932

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: amazing.

933

Toni Shelbourne: set out to do that

and I didn't know that he could

934

do it, but it seemed to help him.

935

I stopped my husband hiccupping as well.

936

He has these hiccups that go on and

on and on and I can do some t touch on

937

his diaphragm and he, he stops within

sometimes within a couple of circles.

938

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's amazing.

939

So, so

940

Toni Shelbourne: We've gone

off track slightly, haven't we?

941

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

no, it is.

942

Just so many uses.

943

No, I know.

944

It's brilliant.

945

Are there any kind of changes

that pet parents notice if they

946

introduce TTouch into their routine?

947

Toni Shelbourne: What you tend to

find, especially with those dogs who

948

are really anxious about say, noises

or triggers like people or traffic or

949

whatever, is that not necessarily that

the behavior disappears straight away,

950

but that the recovery rate comes down.

951

So it really is about kind of almost

building in some resilience to them.

952

You know, it's about saying, oh thi

this, this crappy, horrible thing

953

has to happen to you, but actually

you can get over it a bit quicker

954

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

955

Toni Shelbourne: and you know,

'cause life throws rubbish at us.

956

Right.

957

You know, we all have to go to the

dentist, the dogs have to go to the vets

958

or go into environments that don't like

and stuff isn't always gonna be nice,

959

but if we can just shake it off a bit

easier, then I think that just gives.

960

Dogs and people, you know, some relief

from the horrible stuff that happens.

961

So for me, that's really important.

962

You know, some of the cases I work with,

with dogs who are really traumatized,

963

they've had really bad experiences,

and they just need to have that

964

relief, that ability to be able to

go, okay, that was really bad, but I'm

965

okay now instead of coming home and

for days being upset, upset, upset.

966

So yeah, for me, I, I really love

that ability to support them in

967

that moment and post as well.

968

So, in ttu, I always say to people,

look, try and do some t touch

969

before you get in a situation.

970

If you can do it while you're in

the situation, continue to do it.

971

You're not gonna make the behavior worse.

972

You will help them, but then

use it as a recovery afterwards.

973

And often that really helps had a lady,

years ago, she, I've been my dog's a

974

bit worried about walking past dogs

in the park and I was told to kind

975

of feed my dog as I'm going past.

976

I'm doing it for two years, haven't

really seen a change in the behavior.

977

I was like, okay, well let's

just reduce some of the treats

978

and replace them with TTouches.

979

And within a few weeks the dog was

so much better walking past dogs.

980

So, you know, I think sometimes

we use food and it to the dogs.

981

It might not be what we expect

to happen with that food.

982

We might poison the food a little

bit or they won't eat, or, you know,

983

their comfort eating as I'm just gonna

eat and not think about that issue.

984

So I don't really change the be,

you know, the, the feeling behind

985

that emo that, that feeling or

emotion behind that behavior.

986

But for T Touch, I think we can really

start to sort of change that, those

987

emotions and those long-term feelings.

988

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

989

So important.

990

'cause sometimes when the dog

stress, they may not want to eat.

991

So if you can use some TTouches instead,

you know, as an, as an additional tool.

992

I never even thought of it like that

993

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah,

994

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So

995

Toni Shelbourne: yeah,

996

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So

997

Toni Shelbourne: yeah.

998

It's so helpful.

999

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

00:45:53,763 --> 00:45:56,073

Let's move on to t

touch and body language.

00:45:56,073 --> 00:45:58,533

'cause we, we did touch on

little bit of body language,

00:45:58,533 --> 00:46:00,633

so listening through the hands.

00:46:00,633 --> 00:46:04,203

So you often talk about listening

through the hands, but can

00:46:04,203 --> 00:46:05,823

you explain what that means?

00:46:06,959 --> 00:46:09,209

Toni Shelbourne: Well, that's really

going back to those, finding those

00:46:09,209 --> 00:46:13,619

tension patterns, you know, is there

an area where we touch where the dogs

00:46:13,619 --> 00:46:18,059

go, not too sure about that with calmly

signals or move away or whatever,

00:46:18,419 --> 00:46:21,929

or you know, we see that breath rate

change or that eye expression change.

00:46:22,349 --> 00:46:23,969

But for me, you know, I can really.

00:46:25,064 --> 00:46:28,664

Predict how a dog's gonna

react in a particular situation

00:46:29,114 --> 00:46:31,484

by how they feel physically.

00:46:31,484 --> 00:46:34,694

When I touch them, it it, you know, or

if they don't want me to touch them,

00:46:34,694 --> 00:46:36,374

that also gives me information as well.

00:46:36,824 --> 00:46:42,164

So if the dogs are tolerant of touch,

if it's safe to touch them, then I'm

00:46:42,164 --> 00:46:46,064

gonna use things like the back of my

hand to feel different temperatures.

00:46:46,334 --> 00:46:49,364

I might try and sort of just see whether

I can move the skin a little bit in

00:46:49,364 --> 00:46:54,314

circles, sort of down the back, see

which bit might the skin feel gritty or

00:46:54,394 --> 00:46:58,684

again, if it feels different or looks

different, how does the tail feel?

00:46:59,044 --> 00:47:01,744

You know, we should be able to

feel it, to be really flexible.

00:47:01,744 --> 00:47:06,094

It should be able to kind of really nice,

like, you know, float fluid as it wags.

00:47:06,094 --> 00:47:09,814

But how often do we see a dog

that's just really tight tailed?

00:47:09,814 --> 00:47:11,404

It feels like one solid.

00:47:11,949 --> 00:47:14,799

You know, bone through there rather

than all those little vertebra,

00:47:15,579 --> 00:47:18,639

you know, can they tolerate

having their, their faces handled?

00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:20,019

What's the gum feel like?

00:47:20,019 --> 00:47:24,549

Or this is gonna give us information

about how they are gonna feel about the

00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:29,889

world in general, about being handled,

about having stuff done to them, about

00:47:29,889 --> 00:47:34,809

having equipment put onto them so you

can really, for, for lots of people.

00:47:34,809 --> 00:47:37,029

And they go, oh, just I can't

do this, I can't do that.

00:47:37,029 --> 00:47:39,699

And then you go, well actually

they're really tight in the back.

00:47:39,699 --> 00:47:43,539

So that's probably why they don't

want the harness on, you know?

00:47:43,539 --> 00:47:46,179

And was that created by the harness?

00:47:46,179 --> 00:47:48,549

You know, you've gotta start

looking at those things.

00:47:49,294 --> 00:47:52,864

So for me, sometimes as well

I can send them to the vets

00:47:52,864 --> 00:47:54,604

with a list of observations.

00:47:54,604 --> 00:47:58,144

So I notice that the dog

doesn't put weight on this leg.

00:47:58,354 --> 00:48:01,534

I notice that when I touch in this

area, the breath rate always goes up.

00:48:01,774 --> 00:48:03,274

I notice this, I notice that.

00:48:03,544 --> 00:48:07,444

And for the vet, then that gives them

a little bit more of an indication of

00:48:07,444 --> 00:48:09,424

where to look if there is an issue.

00:48:09,994 --> 00:48:13,744

Because sometimes if you send somebody

to the vet and you go, oh, I think your

00:48:13,744 --> 00:48:17,014

dog is in discomfort, and they say that

to the vet, it's like, well, hang on.

00:48:17,014 --> 00:48:18,664

It's like a needle at a haystack, right?

00:48:18,664 --> 00:48:19,444

I dunno where to look.

00:48:19,834 --> 00:48:23,584

But if you send them with that video

of the dog moving a particular way, you

00:48:23,584 --> 00:48:25,264

send them with a list of observations.

00:48:25,264 --> 00:48:28,534

You send them with their, their

people's own observations.

00:48:29,344 --> 00:48:32,644

Gives the, gives the, the

vets a much better idea.

00:48:33,304 --> 00:48:38,084

I sent a dog recently and the dog,

sweetest dog in the world, but

00:48:38,084 --> 00:48:41,864

had suddenly just attacked a dog

that had just come out of nowhere.

00:48:42,644 --> 00:48:45,014

And I looked at that dog and

I went, this dog's in pain.

00:48:45,014 --> 00:48:45,944

It must be in pain.

00:48:45,944 --> 00:48:48,554

I'm not a vet, but I, I can

see where, how it moves.

00:48:48,554 --> 00:48:52,484

I can see how this dog how

she is, how she reacted.

00:48:52,484 --> 00:48:53,864

It is out of character.

00:48:54,434 --> 00:48:55,514

We need to see the vet.

00:48:55,814 --> 00:49:00,284

And it, and it took a while to convince

the people, but when we eventually

00:49:00,494 --> 00:49:04,124

I got them to go to the vets with my

letter observations and stuff, the vet

00:49:04,124 --> 00:49:05,324

was like, oh, I know where to look.

00:49:05,324 --> 00:49:07,604

There, found the issue straight away.

00:49:08,538 --> 00:49:09,228

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

00:49:09,558 --> 00:49:10,038

Okay.

00:49:10,184 --> 00:49:11,714

Toni Shelbourne: people might

have just gone, oh, the dog's

00:49:11,714 --> 00:49:12,704

just been really naughty.

00:49:12,734 --> 00:49:14,054

Or the dog's like really aggressive.

00:49:14,084 --> 00:49:17,444

No, this was the sweetest

dog in the world, you know?

00:49:18,054 --> 00:49:22,914

So yeah, it can really give you those good

clues and you look at the little stuff.

00:49:23,488 --> 00:49:23,998

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:49:24,478 --> 00:49:24,928

Yeah.

00:49:24,928 --> 00:49:30,598

And dogs often can mask pain

in hide pain, quite, Wow.

00:49:30,598 --> 00:49:34,858

And a lot of the time when you see

some behavior changes, it is because

00:49:34,858 --> 00:49:37,678

there's an element of pain going on.

00:49:37,858 --> 00:49:41,098

Toni Shelbourne: Why don't we as well,

you know, you look at 10 people going

00:49:41,098 --> 00:49:44,488

down the road, you know, you wouldn't

know half of them have got back problems.

00:49:45,178 --> 00:49:48,658

And, and like somebody, I, I heard

a phrase recently and I think it

00:49:48,658 --> 00:49:51,698

was on some a, a, a webinar or

something I was watching when someone

00:49:51,698 --> 00:49:54,398

said, when a dog's actually lame.

00:49:54,458 --> 00:49:56,168

They're not in pain, they're in agony.

00:49:57,532 --> 00:49:57,882

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

00:49:57,938 --> 00:50:01,508

Toni Shelbourne: And I thought that was

really good because, so like you were

00:50:01,508 --> 00:50:06,398

saying, you know, we know up to like 82%

of, of animals behavioral issues now have

00:50:06,398 --> 00:50:07,958

got discomfort in the body somewhere.

00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:11,588

We've proved that with the, with the,

the papers, the scientific papers.

00:50:11,948 --> 00:50:14,708

But yeah, that really struck home to

me that actually, if you can actually

00:50:14,708 --> 00:50:18,608

physically see a lameness, they

must be in complete agony because.

00:50:19,298 --> 00:50:22,508

I walk around every day with aches

and pains and stuff going on.

00:50:22,508 --> 00:50:23,588

I'm sure you do too.

00:50:23,588 --> 00:50:25,088

You know, we function right.

00:50:25,737 --> 00:50:26,127

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:50:26,468 --> 00:50:30,128

Toni Shelbourne: but we, yeah, but we,

and then we have good days and bad days.

00:50:30,128 --> 00:50:31,808

We have days when we're really

grumpy 'cause it hurts and

00:50:31,808 --> 00:50:32,858

days that are really good.

00:50:32,888 --> 00:50:35,618

But why do we not expect

our dogs to have that too?

00:50:36,013 --> 00:50:36,303

Yeah,

00:50:36,597 --> 00:50:37,737

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, it is true.

00:50:38,007 --> 00:50:38,937

Yeah, it is true.

00:50:38,997 --> 00:50:39,387

Definitely.

00:50:40,077 --> 00:50:41,697

you know your dog as well, don't you?

00:50:41,697 --> 00:50:42,867

Not most of the time.

00:50:42,867 --> 00:50:43,107

So,

00:50:43,598 --> 00:50:44,048

Toni Shelbourne: yeah.

00:50:44,127 --> 00:50:45,237

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they're having a good day.

00:50:45,908 --> 00:50:49,208

Toni Shelbourne: But convincing some

people that their dogs are in pain.

00:50:49,448 --> 00:50:50,948

I'm the vet sometimes as well.

00:50:50,948 --> 00:50:54,428

I'm not vet bashing 'cause it's

hard, there's no diagnosis for pain.

00:50:54,968 --> 00:50:58,958

But, you know, it's, it's come

quite difficult to, you know,

00:50:59,018 --> 00:51:00,608

get to the root of that problem.

00:51:01,617 --> 00:51:02,607

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it can be.

00:51:02,857 --> 00:51:05,617

You've mentioned Carmen Signals, I'm

just gonna say for our listeners,

00:51:05,617 --> 00:51:09,637

'cause Steve Williamson mentioned

Carmen Signals, so that's when the,

00:51:09,667 --> 00:51:13,927

obviously 'cause I, I look at it from a,

like, body language communicating, but

00:51:13,927 --> 00:51:18,077

obviously that's like the lip licking

the, the blinking, the, and where

00:51:18,077 --> 00:51:19,457

they're doing all those signs, isn't it?

00:51:19,457 --> 00:51:22,157

They're communicating to you

that obviously something's

00:51:22,157 --> 00:51:23,147

not right, they're not happy.

00:51:24,433 --> 00:51:24,823

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

00:51:24,823 --> 00:51:30,283

How I explain to clients is it, it's

about dogs giving and receiving signals.

00:51:30,283 --> 00:51:32,623

It's an innate, you know, communication.

00:51:32,953 --> 00:51:37,423

It's about figuring out if they're

safe to be approached, you know, seeing

00:51:37,423 --> 00:51:41,293

what's going on so they can give them

or receive them depending on, you know,

00:51:41,293 --> 00:51:44,383

they can say, oh, I'm a bit, can you just

slow down a little bit and go, oh yeah,

00:51:44,383 --> 00:51:45,763

sorry, you know, I'm not gonna do that.

00:51:46,093 --> 00:51:48,793

And, and I always like to teach

that to people as well, because.

00:51:49,273 --> 00:51:51,853

We can obviously give calmly

signals to our dog as well as

00:51:51,853 --> 00:51:53,203

reading their calmly signals.

00:51:53,203 --> 00:51:56,713

And I always give the example of when

me and my husband are out hiking.

00:51:56,713 --> 00:51:59,803

We, we don't actually have a

dog in our lives at the moment.

00:52:00,193 --> 00:52:04,513

And, but if we are walking down a

narrow path and a dog comes towards

00:52:04,513 --> 00:52:07,453

us and it stops and goes, Hmm,

I'm not sure about these people.

00:52:07,453 --> 00:52:09,673

We both automatically look to the side.

00:52:09,673 --> 00:52:13,213

We might give a yawn, we arc to the

side, and a hundred percent of the

00:52:13,213 --> 00:52:14,743

time that dog goes, oh, you are okay.

00:52:14,743 --> 00:52:15,643

I can go past you.

00:52:16,093 --> 00:52:17,053

And we're like, oh, job done.

00:52:17,233 --> 00:52:17,593

You know?

00:52:17,833 --> 00:52:18,193

Yeah.

00:52:18,523 --> 00:52:19,333

So it, you know.

00:52:20,323 --> 00:52:24,433

Yeah, we can use those signals to really

help our dogs in those situations.

00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:28,543

So sometimes I've used it, people say, my

dog's like really barks at things outside.

00:52:28,543 --> 00:52:29,233

I'm like, just give a ya.

00:52:29,413 --> 00:52:31,693

Give a calm me signal and see

if that helps them calm down.

00:52:31,903 --> 00:52:33,343

And it often it does.

00:52:33,703 --> 00:52:38,143

But also when we're doing the TTouch work,

we are reading those little micro, you

00:52:38,143 --> 00:52:42,973

know, the lick of the nose, the yawn that

isn't tired, the eye evert, the blinking.

00:52:42,973 --> 00:52:45,553

We're looking at all of those

things and they're the ones

00:52:45,553 --> 00:52:47,263

I see them giving to us most.

00:52:47,263 --> 00:52:49,543

But of course the other dogs,

they're sniffing the ground

00:52:49,543 --> 00:52:52,603

and peeing and arcing and yeah,

there's so many more, isn't there?

00:52:53,153 --> 00:52:57,413

But yeah, I love calming signals

because if we can, we can get people

00:52:57,413 --> 00:53:01,013

to start recognizing at that level,

then the dogs never have to get

00:53:01,013 --> 00:53:03,233

into that shey fear response bit.

00:53:03,233 --> 00:53:07,163

The fight, flight, freeze, fall

round, flock, faint, all of those.

00:53:07,707 --> 00:53:07,977

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:53:07,977 --> 00:53:08,787

All the Fs.

00:53:08,787 --> 00:53:09,236

Yeah.

00:53:09,473 --> 00:53:09,893

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

00:53:09,986 --> 00:53:11,486

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

picking up, just learn.

00:53:11,547 --> 00:53:12,627

We dunno what we don't know.

00:53:12,627 --> 00:53:15,596

And obviously some pet parents,

you know, they don't, may not know.

00:53:15,596 --> 00:53:19,736

So if we can try and teach them all

about body language and calming signals

00:53:19,736 --> 00:53:23,006

and you know, they can pick up on

these little things, it's so important,

00:53:23,063 --> 00:53:23,813

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

00:53:24,173 --> 00:53:24,743

Yeah.

00:53:24,743 --> 00:53:27,443

And there's so much good information

out there about it now as well.

00:53:27,443 --> 00:53:28,703

It's easy to find, isn't it?

00:53:28,703 --> 00:53:31,253

On videos, on YouTube,

et cetera, et cetera.

00:53:31,932 --> 00:53:33,672

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, let's move on to

00:53:33,672 --> 00:53:35,592

addressing a bit of skepticism.

00:53:35,592 --> 00:53:38,532

That's a big word for me, and

misunderstandings, if that's all right.

00:53:39,113 --> 00:53:39,503

Toni Shelbourne: Yeah.

00:53:39,642 --> 00:53:42,852

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: might

be a bit skeptical about softer approaches

00:53:42,852 --> 00:53:47,772

like this, but what would you say to

those who think it sounds too gentle?

00:53:48,022 --> 00:53:49,011

To be affected?

00:53:50,222 --> 00:53:52,533

Toni Shelbourne: Well, do you

know, I quite like skepticism.

00:53:53,192 --> 00:53:55,863

I like people who go, not

too sure if this happens.

00:53:55,863 --> 00:53:57,272

So I go, that's fine, doesn't matter.

00:53:57,303 --> 00:53:59,312

I'm just gonna do the

work, see what happens.

00:53:59,492 --> 00:54:03,212

And then often the work, yeah,

the work just proves itself.

00:54:03,872 --> 00:54:06,392

And if they're not ready to come

to the work, they're not ready.

00:54:06,392 --> 00:54:09,303

You know, it's, you know, you,

I say to some, you know, new

00:54:09,362 --> 00:54:10,862

practitioners, you can't win them all.

00:54:11,072 --> 00:54:14,882

You know, you can't win every brand,

but there sometimes things just happen.

00:54:15,152 --> 00:54:19,382

So, years ago, I remember a couple came

to my house and they had an American

00:54:19,382 --> 00:54:23,252

bulldog, and the guy sat on my sofa.

00:54:23,282 --> 00:54:27,452

He like, you know, tattoos and a vest,

you know, he sat and he just sort of sat

00:54:27,452 --> 00:54:29,132

there, watched me for the whole session.

00:54:29,552 --> 00:54:31,502

And at the end of it I went,

you know, what do you think?

00:54:31,507 --> 00:54:33,902

Because it's not for everybody, you know,

some people think it's a bit kind of

00:54:33,902 --> 00:54:35,732

airy fairy and went, do you know what?

00:54:35,732 --> 00:54:38,222

If you could touch my dog after

one session or do anything you

00:54:38,222 --> 00:54:39,842

tell me to, and I was like, yay.

00:54:41,807 --> 00:54:43,367

And he was like the biggest advocate.

00:54:43,757 --> 00:54:46,817

And I also had somebody at work