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Turning 40 and Using Astrology and Enneagram to Understand Your Personality ✨
Episode 581st August 2023 • Forty Drinks: The Podcast About Turning 40 • Stephanie McLaughlin
00:00:00 00:48:18

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Indra Rinzler is a healer and a teacher who has studied spiritual modalities for more than 50 years. He mainly works with astrology and Enneagram of Personality, which he explains in this episode. Indra shares his unique journey of self-discovery that started at the age of 24, which he believes helped him avoid a major life transition around the age of 40. As an  astrologer, Indra can identify the cosmic ingredients that led him to not buy into any of the “shoulds” or other conditioning passed on from his family and society. That allowed him to live what he calls his “true life” and avoid the crash so many of us face around 40.

Guest Bio

Indra Rinzler is a lifetime spiritual seeker. He’s a healer, teacher, and offers life readings for clients. Astrology and the Enneagram of Personality are the main modalities that he shares. He’s been studying astrology and spirituality for fifty years. He first learned of the Enneagram of Personality in 1999. He uses these two modalities individually and in combination. His focus is to help clients to wake up to who they really are. He works to help people to live beyond their conditioned stories and to live more in the moment.

Turning 40 and Using Astrology and Enneagram to Understand Your Personality

In this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Indra Rinzler, a spiritual guide who has spent more than 50 years on the spiritual path. Indra's unique perspective on life, spirituality, and personal growth is both enlightening and thought-provoking. If you've ever wondered about the spiritual path, astrology, or the Enneagram, this episode is a must-listen.

Here are some of the key highlights from our conversation:

  • Indra shares his unique journey of self-discovery that started at the age of 24, which he believes helped him avoid a major life transition around the age of 40.
  • We delve into Indra's upbringing and his decision to forge his own path, which led him to astrology and understanding the influence of conditioning on our lives.
  • Indra discusses his approach to business, emphasizing authenticity over marketing and the importance of attracting the right people to what he does.
  • We explore Indra's deep connection to numbers and how this relates to his work in astrology and the Enneagram.
  • Indra provides a fascinating breakdown of spiritual awakening at different ages, offering insights into the unique challenges and breakthroughs that can occur at each stage of life.
  • Finally, Indra explains his approach to guiding people onto the spiritual path, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, observing one's own behavior, and understanding personal patterns.

Indra's wisdom and insights provide a unique perspective on the spiritual path and personal growth as we face a potential reckoning of identity around age 40. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to rate, follow, and review our podcast. Your feedback and support are greatly appreciated.


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Stephanie: Hi Indra. Thanks for joining me today.

Indra: Uh, thank you so much for having me, Stephanie.

Stephanie: Listen, let's just cut to the punch and spoil the punch line here. And that is that you have told me that you did not have a major transition around age 40 or even in that decade of 35 to 45, and part of it is because you started searching for yourself at 24 and you never stopped. And so that maybe has precluded you from some ofthe crashing and the transition that a lot of us go through at 40.

eading and I went back to the:

Stephanie: Yep. Yep. I, I agree with you there. Let me ask you a question though about, um, your upbringing. I'm very curious, so many of the people that I've talked to have really felt in their twenties and in their thirties that they were following a prescribed path and the things that you should do...

Indra: I didn't buy into any of it. I didn't really believe it when they said should. I grew up in New York, I lived on the address that people die for, my father was a doctor and I went to the best schools and I never really felt part of any of it, It didn't really make sense to me. It's not that I have to do it my way, but I have to make sure that what I'm doing is what I wanna do rather than what I should do. I'm an astrologer and so I can relate it back to astrology - empty seventh house people, they have trouble with conditioning. They buy into family.

Stephanie: I dunno what that means.

Indra: The seventh house in astrology is the house of relationship. And so we looked at the seventh house to see what the relationships are. But if you don't have any planets there, it's not that relationship isn't that important, but you also don't have an ability to be able to see through the conditioning, the stories of other people. You're not grounded enough in your connection to other people that whether you become people pleasing or whether your insecurity that you, have trouble not buying into other family and society conditioning. That you have to learn that you're a lawyer because your father wanted you to be a lawyer, not because you wanted to be a lawyer. And then you go through what you're talking about is this crash at 35 and to 40 because I'm not living my true life. That was never really an issue for me.

Stephanie: Is it, um, a minority of people who don't have that condition in their astrology? Are you among the minority?

Indra: No, it's not a minority. I should also say that my mother died of natural causes a week after I graduated college, and my father died two years later. And so any of the shoulds kind of dissipated. I feel that my karma was to forge my own path. And possibly why my parents died at a young age, if there's a why about it, is that they stood as a barrier to protect me from the older generation, or older generation's ideas or the powering of the older generations Jewish family. Coming up, they knew that that wasn't right and so they let me kind of do my own thing. I was kind of a big spirit anyways. I don't know that they could control me anyways. But the point was, is that I didn't have that, they were encouraging that in me, and then they passed on, and then I had a good relationship with my grandparents afterwards. Well, on one side, my grandparents, my grandmother, I never saw again, but my grandparents, my father's side, I saw them and had a good connection with them. And they said, I remember my grandfather said, Why are you growing a beard? And then he said, oh, I kind of like it. So there was a meeting of generations that was really beautiful. Mm-hmm. But I didn't have any of that going on. At all.

Stephanie: Interesting. Yeah. Even though you left your MBA program and you didn't want to do the corporate business thing, I noticed in your bio that it said that you did start and manage several successful small businesses throughout your thirties and forties. So how is it that you did that differently?

Indra: How was it that I did it different? I always had business. My father was a doctor, but my grandparents had been in business and so business was my thing. I took a business course in college and I remember there was, I think it was a marketing course or something, and they had you list, well, how would you market or what would you do? And I had pages that just flew out of me instinctively. So the business was always there, not so much now, but always there and not in the corporate way.

Let me give you an analogy: I was in a collaborative group recently on one of my modalities, first time in this, and at the end they had a 30 minute marketing thing. You do this and then you do that. It's like, I'm not interested in marketing. I'm interested in maybe doing some promoting, but I'm not interested in selling. The people are gonna get attracted to what I do. They're gonna be sent to what I do. But the whole idea of marketing, of creating an image and bringing out sizzle and trying to convince people is kind of anti what I want to do. And if I ever do that, if I even think of going in that direction, I, I will get stopped, it just won't feel right because it's not, do you understand what I mean?

Stephanie: I do

Indra: I don't want to convince anybody of anything because what I do is too heavy for people to just walk into. I'm at psychic fairs and we have one modality I do.And people would say, this is deep. And I say, yes, that's what I'm doing. I'm interested in helping you to make real changes in your life, to give you real solutions, to know exactly what's going on. Because once you know what you need to know, then the solutions will be there.

Stephanie: Right.

Indra: It's getting clear on what's happening and so the information I'm giving you is particularly deep. I've spent 50 years on this spiritual path in order to be able to have a depth and experience and perhaps a way to be able to share this information with you. And none of it comes from ego. It's not developing myself. It's not I'll look better, it's not people will understand me. I don't care about any of that. In a sense, you know, I never did. Even when I did, I never did. You know, I mean, it was just, uh, not knowing any better.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things you saidon your website, and I want to tie this into what we're talking about, you said from your earliest memories, you felt a deep connection to numbers. And that's very curious to me because I have always been a letters person. I see words inside my brain. I see letters and I think that way, whereas I think most of my family is actually more numbers. But how does your connection to numbers connect to astrology and enneagram and those modalities that you do work in?

Indra: Well, I think that's the key is that they're sacred geometry. Astrology is sacred geometry. It's angles, it's relationships, conjunctions is an angle, and opposition is an angle. And so it's full of numbers. The thing that happened is in the last 10 years as I'm starting to write, and I knew this was coming, and writing isn't my thing, you know, be like perhaps balancing your checkbook for you. The thing is that the numbers have disappeared and now I start thinking in terms of words and before I thought in numbers. Not just the numbers. Numbers are ratios. When I'm nervous, I might start counting like window panes, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. I'd start counting numbers. And there's a peace in numbers, there's an understanding in numbers. I'm sure it's the same for you for words and letters. It's the same thing, only it's a different modality. It's a different grounding.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Indra: And so the relationship of how things work and how things appear from a analytical, numerical understanding is part of the modalities that I've been attracted to. And that I can share the deepest from because I can't tell you how to do well with Wordle. But I can do pretty well with Sudoku, you know. That I can tell you about.

Stephanie: Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that's been coming up in my conversations recently, and by the time this episode is published they will be recent episodes, and that's that people who are going through this transition, a lot of them are talking about having a spiritual awakening. I know that's what it was for me as well. There was a psychic who was a dear friend of a good friend of mine who became a dear friend of mine, who sort of, blew my socks off with our first reading in a way that got my attention enough. Talk to me about spiritual awakening as you've seen it by practicing these modalities over the last 50 years.

Indra: Well, I like to think that there's only the spiritual path. People, say, well, what's the alternative? Well, not being on the spiritual path. Well, not being on the spiritual path is being on the spiritual path, but not knowing it. I don't know what the alternative is., When I lived in an ashram, and when we left, people would say, well, you're leaving the spiritual path, you're not in the ray anymore. And that was kind of their own story. But you can't leave it, you can only maybe think that you've left it, but you can't leave it. There are markers at different ages. I mean, it can happen at any age, but there are some generic markers at each age that I found to be universal and have read afterwards that there are astrological cycles. Like, Saturn return, that's pretty popular right now, 27 to 29 years. There are these key ages. You're 35 to 45, it could be three Jupiters is 36, the Jupiter is a 12 year cycle. Three Jupiters

Stephanie: mm-hmm.

Indra: Is 36 years. Things like that, the astrologer would pick it up. As to the spirituality, it's really when you're ready for it, it's always there. We turn to the spirituality when we realize that what we've already tried hasn't worked and that can be a long process because then we'll try other things that are in the same flavor.

Stephanie: like what, then

Indra: Well, if tall men don't work, then I'll try the short men, and if short men don't work, then I'll try the blue men, and if the blue men don't work, I'll try the red men. And eventually you say, well, maybe it's not about the man. Maybe it's about me. And so that realization you may have been born with, it may come at 20, may not come till 40, may not come in this life.

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

Indra: And, I don't think it matters. There's no good or bad about, oh, I had it at 22 or I had it at 46, or I never had it. I don't think it really matters. It may matter to the ego, but I don't think it really matters to anybody else. So, I do have these pointers at each age of some things that happened.

Stephanie: Let's start there.

Indra: Okay. So I find that the 16 to eighteens, I've had a few clients at that age, and they're really open. They come to me because their parents don't know what to do and maybe their parents are involved and they're really open. There's a sense, perhaps a sense of desperation or exhaustion and maybe more on the parents than the kid, but whatever you say, they're really open to it. They're beautiful that way. They can hear and they don't care about what they don't know.

Now by 21, the thing is that's a little bit more difficult because by 21, you've had enough experiences to think that you really know something, but actually you haven't had enough experiences. At 21, you don't really know what you don't know, and because you've had some experiences, you think that you get it. And so you're a little rigid. I remember talking to a 21 year old client in India, Australian girl, and I tried to tell her what was gonna come up and she just couldn't really hear it yet. And there's nothing wrong with that, but that's just the nature of that particular age.

Now, 25, I call the perfect age. Because you've had enough experiences that I can tell you what's gonna happen and your ears are open and at 25 you're still malleable, you're not so rigid in your own being. You've come into some identity and there's enough confidence there to be able to hear what you don't know and experience it so that you can understand it and you're flexible enough, identity wise, that you can take on things and don't find it to be controversial or limiting to yourself.

By 28, you start getting a little bit more rigid, so you're not as flexible, you don't hear the things you need to hear quite as well. It's kind of like, well, I've kind of tried things and I have something that works and I like my boyfriend and my life is good, so I don't really wanna listen to you.

And 32, that's even more so don't tell me what to do. 32 I noticed for women, I dunno if I read this or make it up, that's kind of the way I am. But the height of sexuality for the women tends to be more in this 28 to 32. So I'm kind of in my power and I kind of know who I am and don't tell me what to do.

And then 35 is the height of arrogance. Arrogance being that I know better. And so you can't really tell a 35 anything.

And then at 38 it starts breaking down because you're starting to get tired and you're starting to realize that what you tried didn't work and you're starting to burn the candle at both ends and you've had enough of the same rinse and repeat relationships that that isn't very satisfying either, and you don't really know what to do. And this is men and women, I'm talking women because they're most of the clients and you're a woman but it's men and women, it's the same thing. So by 38, you're starting to get a little worn down, but you're not really ground down enough to be able to be opened up.

The decade of the forties is the hardest decade as far as I'm concerned, because I like to say you're furthest fromdiscount prices. You're not senior and you're not a teen and so you're paying the most. You're burned out taking care of the kids, and if you have your career, you're burned out doing that. You've put all your energy into that and it doesn't, that you don't have the family and you don't have the kids, whatever it is that you have and haven't achieved your goals. You've been worn down by the masculinity of the society, the pushiness and the go-getter. And it has worked and not worked and you're exhausted. Your body is starting to break down. You can't do the workouts that you did before. You can't party the same amount of hours. The morning isn't the same as it was.

So at 45 to 50, at 50, there's a breakthrough. At 50 is like, I'm so happy I'm alive. I'm happy to sit on the back porch and rock and I don't need to do anything. I like to say that at 20, if I say open your heart, you're gonna say, Hey, my heart is open. You're gonna have some snappy answer. But at 50, if I say, you need to open your heart, you're gonna say, you're the third person that told me that this week, tell me more. So there's an openness.

Between 45 and 48 there starts to be: maybe, I don't know so much. I'm really exhausted. I've gotta try some new things. And there's an opening that starts to appear. If they come to you at 35, they don't have the same attitude as at 45. At 45, they're much more listening and much more open and wanna try things

They don't really want to change at 35 because they're too identified with their ego. They're too identified with what they've done. I've got everything vested in this career. I've got everything vested in this image, and I'm not ready to burn it up yet. At 42 to 45, you're very happy to burn it up.

In the fifties, you start being open. In the sixties and seventies you're pretty open. at 60, the things that you've never dealt with, you may never deal with. You may have a rigidity and you may never get past that, but the other side of it is you don't really care. And I was telling a podcaster recently that in the seventies, I don't care why. Why completely disappeared maybe. 3, 4, 5 years ago. I mean, maybe it's kind of nice to know, but there isn't a need and it doesn't really matter that something is the way that it is, whether it's personal or society or world culture. It doesn't really matter to me, it is what it is, and why it is isn't so important. That's my flow through the ages. So there's a letting go in each generational decade.

Stephanie: So if someone comes to you and they're 35 and they say, help me, do you know that they're gonna ignore what you say?

Indra: Well, no. I mean, the people that come to me are hand selected, you know,they're searching and they don't care the age. What I do think about is, and I tell them I have a introductory letter, and I say in there that what I'm gonna tell you, some of it may not germinate for years. It is still gonna be in there, but it may not germinate for years. And it's not my job to have it all germinate, my job is just to express it. Whether they hear it or not isn't really my responsibility. I handle all people with sincerity and I don't think that they don't, because they're already different people by just sitting down with me, I never would sit down with me. But, the people that do are desperate enough and inquisitive enough. I say, well, why do you want the reading that they say I'm curious that's not so serious. The curious aren't gonna really take it in deep. But again, it isn't my responsibility on whether they do or don't. My responsibility is just to share and when the time comes, it will be there. I've had people write me three, six years later and say, you know, you were right. I didn't understand it at the time, but you were right. I got a lady next week, gave her a reading six years ago, and she says, I haven't grown. Six years, mid fifties, I haven't grown. So I don't know exactly what we're gonna hear, but she's ready to hear, she's ready at the point to admit that she hasn't grown. That is growth. And she has grown right, grown spiritually. She doesn't recognize it, so I'm gonna help her to see how she's grown and help her to take the next steps, but what she has or hasn't done isn't really an issue.

Stephanie: Sure, sure. So if people who are listening to this are coming to a point in their lives where they are indeed opening up to a more spiritual path, a more spiritual view of the world, or like you said, all the options that they tried before didn't work, so let's try this one. They're coming to you on sort of a spiritual on-ramp, right? They're stepping into that part of the world.


Stephanie: When somebody's working with you, what does that on-ramp look like? That introduction to the spiritual path for somebody who might be in their thirties or forties look like?

Indra: Well, it isn't only people that are new to the spiritual path. There can be people that are deepening, also.

I think the spiritual on-ramp is to get people to start observing their own behavior and to start observing their reaction to behavior, to other people's behavior and thinking, and their reactions to their own behavior and thinking, to starting to bring them into the moment. No matter where they come from, cuz I work with a lot offoreign people overseas. I mean, I can do them here too, but when I'm in India giving readings, it's mostly young people who are perhaps new to the path, but to get to Rishikesh, you've gotta have had your ear to the, to the pavement, you know, to hear that call.

So what it is, is just to get them to be more aware of what's happening in their lives, more aware of what they're doing, more aware of their patterning. The patterning of the personality, the patterning of the astrology placements, to get them to understand that they don't have to feel shame that they have envy, for example, that the downside of Venus is envy and judgments and comparisons, so it's a given, but it's not a negative given. It can behave negatively, but it's just a starting place. It's a circumstance, it's an opportunity rather than being a good or bad, I don't use the words good or bad. I I use strong and weak, I use high and low energy, but I don't really use good and bad because it doesn't really apply. And, um, hmm. So, it's just to get them into that process. And for some people they, they dig up on it and their life has changed, even if they never study what I've shared with them and listened to it again, I've given them seeds that will germinate. I should say they've been given seeds. It's not me giving it, it's not my teaching. It's just a teaching and it comes through me. So if they ignore it, it's still kind of in there and if they go get into it, then they go deeper and deeper. And coming into the moment is a never ending process. Somebody asked me about practices. It's not a practice anymore for me, it's a lifestyle. I like to say that on the mat and off the mat have to be the same, that's the practice.

Stephanie: Okay.

Indra: That the point of stretching in yoga isn't only to stretch your arm or your side, stretching up the wall, it's also to learn to be able to stretch in your life, to get it expansive, to get out of your small places. So on the mat and off the mat have to be the same that you wanna create your whole life in a linear way. I saw a post by a friend of mine who was just in India, a woman in that age bracket that you're talking about. She's been to India,maybe six, seven years, and she says, I wanna make my Dutch life the same as my Indian life. I want to bring how I am in India. The problem is that you're groovy over your weekend with your girlfriends and you're open and then you get back to your regular life and you walk in the house and you constrict again. And so the idea is to make it linear that you're, uh, you know, unified, vertical that you're the same everywhere. That your spiritual life becomes your regular life and it's not that it's only on a Sunday that I'm spiritual or religious, that it's all the time. It's 24 7. So that's the process. And that's a lifetime achievement award. It's a many lifetime achievement award.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. So again, thinking of folks who are stepping into this realm newly, most of us think of astrology as, you know, we read our horoscopes in the newspaper or online somewhere. I know the way in in which you practice it is obviously so much more in depth and technicolor, but tell me what astrology can tell us about ourselves.

Indra: Astrology deservedly, can have a bad reputation because, like anything, it can be manipulated. The problem with astrology today is it's full of distractions. It's full of what I call billable hours. The astrologers are finding problems that they're letting you know that they can solve. Outer asteroids, angles, aspects, and creating problems for us that most of us weren't aware of before and still aren't aware of once we hear about it, only when we go to fear.

What astrology can do is it's an x-ray of who we are. It's the strengths and weaknesses of our personality, not our essence, but our personality. We learn to understand who we think we are, not who we really are. And so by understanding who we think we are, we're then able to let go of those positions. What I do is merely just helping people to see what's in their chart, in their natal chart, it's a imprinting at birth of the strengths and weaknesses that they have and helping them to realize that they're blessings and curses. They're good and bad. It's not curse, but it's an opportunity. And when you understand it from the viewpoint of that you're not bad, but this is a difficult and challenging position, and this is what you need to work on.

For example, empty seventh house: you need to realize that you buy into conditioning and that you have to be strong enough in yourself to ask yourself, is that something I really believe? Do I enjoy being a lawyer or don't I? Separate from the fact mm-hmm that my parents love me being a lawyer, that my mother loves going to the club and saying, my daughter, the lawyer. Now do I right enjoy being that lawyer? Am I being it for her and that's okay. Or is that something that I want to do. These are real questions that have a depth to them, and then you go, well, no, I don't wanna be a lawyer. And then why did I accept that? What do I really wanna do? Who am I?

This is going back to your 40 Drinks. What do I really wanna do? Mm-hmm. And when I start busting down walls, whoa, all the dominoes are gonna fall. Am I willing to let that happen? You know? And the answer is you don't really have any control over it. Once it starts, thank God, it just keeps going. And if you hold it back, then you get the body stuff. You get the illnesses, the headaches, back aches and stomach aches. That's what I tell people. And if you don't listen to that, it kind of, devolves into worse illnesses. You know, mind body connection. What the mind is going through, that it develops in the body.

Stephanie: Yep. Okay, so the astrology is an x-ray of your personality. Then tell me a little bit about Enneagram.

Indra: So, the Enneagram is a tremendous modality. It's about 60 years old, the Enneagram of Personality, that they're are nine personality types, and one of them is at our core. There are three instincts: anger, emotion, and fear, and while we have all three, one of them is at our core and it's the core story. And when we understand our core story and the patterning from that core story, a big light bulb comes on that, you read about yourself and you think you're very unique, and you come to find out that there's, you know, hundreds of millions of people who have the exact same story, the exact same strengths and weaknesses, the exact same obsessions and compulsions. I think it's important to run through the nine stories, if that's okay. Yeah. I'll do them fairly quickly, they're numbered one through nine and there's no hierarchy. And they also have names, but of course we don't agree on the names, you can't argue with numbers. You're gonna recognize friends of yours in some of these and yourself and your mate and your kids in some of these.

So the one is the inward anger and it's the perfectionist, the one that needs everything to be done right. They sit in life with frustration and resentment because things aren't done right around them because they feel inadequate within themselves. They feel ineffective, and so in order not to feel that they want things to be done right. So I say, how do you know it's right? And the answer is they don't. They make it up and it's changeable.

Two is the helper. I'm sure you know a lot of those. There are male like John Travolta, but it's a more of a feminine role and it's the helper. It's the one that takes care of other people. It looks selfless, but it's actually selfish, because they don't feel love within themselves. They don't feel lovable, and so they codependent to other people and do all these wonderful things for everybody in order to help them feel love within themselves. It's emotion bodied, outward facing.

Three is the producer, the achiever. This is emotion inward. These are the Type A's who are very productive and have all the achievements. It's about the achieving. They're charming and they're chameleon, and the way that they can be chameleon is they're not actually grounded in themselves. They don't actually know who they are, but their achieving is their way to connect with other people, to find value in themselves because the core fear is that they don't have inherent value.

Four is the individualist. This is the typical beautiful woman who is so talented. It's the model in Paris. It's Bob Dylan, and Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson. The most creative, and so sensitive, they use adjectives like nobody else uses adjectives, you see it in Facebook all the time, they're so expressive. And they walk across the room with so much elegance and beauty, but they don't feel unique. They need to feel unique and they don't feel unique. They're the most beautiful. But they don't feel the most beautiful. So their story is about finding an individuality because they can't accept being like everybody else. So that's image inward, emotion inward.

The five is the fear inward. They're the observer, they need to know how things work in life. And so they study everything. I had a five in India, a friend of mine, was a five. And I said, well, I wonder how they built the bridge. And he said, oh, well, they, he knew how they built the bridge because he finds safety, fives find safety in knowing how things work.

The six is the loyalists. This is the ones that have the most anxiety. They're the ones that call you when they don't know what to do. Their core fear is not having security or guidance. And so they have, fear and anxiety about everything, but it's all about future events, and those future events never happen. This is fear neutral.

The seven is the enthusiasts. This is me. This is my story. It's the outward fear. It's the greener pastures. It's that I'm running toward. I've got positive, stimulating ideas to share with you. I'm running toward, and I come to find out that I'm not actually running toward, I'm actually running away. What I'm actually running away from is my own feelings.

Eight is the outward anger. This is the most confident and the most assured. This is Jack Nicholson. Queen Latifah, is the female eight. They're the most assured. They're the strongest personality. They only have offense. They don't have any defense. What they're hiding is that they have a teddy bear in their heart, and they don't want you to see any weakness. And so they cover up any weakness they have with in your face.

And then the nine, the last one is anger neutral. It's called the peacemaker. We love the nines. They accommodate other people. They're diminishing themselves. They need peace and harmony around them, and they're willing to give up themselves unconsciously in order to find peace and harmony. But that isn't actually peace and harmony. It's a story of peace and harmony. And they're always accommodating other people's needs because they just don't put themselves first.

So those are the nine stories. It is an archetypal system, but I believe that it is the archetypal system. These are the nine personality types that have come to us from the 5,000 years of Judeo-Christian tradition.

Stephanie: And are they malleable throughout your life or are you just that forever?

Indra: You're that forever in this personality. Absolutely. And, you have personas, we go to our wings, which is the number on either side of us as a coping strategy. Then we have stress as a seven, I go to one in stress where my easygoing, easy nature disappears, and I become a one where I become self-righteous and blaming and angry. So we all have that. Everybody goes to a different number, nines go to six and eights go to five, and sevens go to one, and everybody goes to a different number. And then we have a relaxation number. We go to our happy place where we take on, like, sevens go to five. So a lot of the teaching that I can do is, I was at five where I could study as a seven, I couldn't study it because there's too much movement and not the feeling, but in five, then I can kind of, oh, let me read this. So I read it as a five. My trick is to not teach it as a five, because then I become the college professor, but to teach it with the enthusiasm, come back to seven and teach it as a seven, and then it has, you know,

I think you can feel it in the podcast. This is me being me. This is my personality. The essence is my teachings, but this is the personality that we relate to other people. But the teaching is that you can live in a higher and lower vibration of the story. You don't change the story, but what you do is you live in a higher vibration of it. As a seven, I don't get so concerned about the moving and what's happening outside. I let go of those stories, and coming back to your 35 40 story, is that you start letting go a lot of your preconceptions, so you start being freer after you've had your quote breakdown period, you've had your catharsis. And then you're let me try something new, I want to do it in a new way. Maybe I can wear that dress, maybe I can wear that blouse, maybe it's okay for me to go on a dating app, you know, let me try different things.

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

Indra: So you're breaking out, you're still you, but you're living in a higher vibration in there where you're opened again. That breakdown has to do with your closing and you don't see any way out. That's the blessing there is no way out other than through. You have to face what you didn't want to face or not able to face or couldn't see, but in the breakdown, then all of a sudden you start seeing, and in that, then things start opening up to you. Things change.

Stephanie: Mm. Yeah. And how do you determine your Enneagram?

Indra: The way we determine Enneagram is that you can take a simple test. There's a simple paragraph test, five to 10 minutes, and I'm gonna offer that to anybody that's listening to the podcast for free if you write me, and I will also send you, okay, your Vedic astrology chart, if you send me birth time, date and place. I need three things, time, date, and place and I will send you your chart and some comments about it.

Stephanie: Okay.

Indra: So you can take the test, but for some people it's really difficult to figure out their Enneagram point because they're either so bought into their family and society conditioning that they have trouble, you know people that don't really know who they are, that they go with the crowd. You know, you get together with your girlfriend and you say, well, where do you want to go? And that she says, well, I don't care. I'll go where you want go. They don't really know themselves enough to know what they want. And so for them, it's a little bit of a different strategy. We can see it in the astrology. I can see it talking to them. Mm-hmm. They will announce it to me, you know, at some point if we go into it.

I was working at a show this weekend. I was working with the husband and I always, if the wife is sitting there, I say, well, you figure out yours too. And she told me a number and then she read it and it wasn't it? And I may have said something else and that wasn't it. But at the very end a number came to me. The husband said that she's a people pleaser. I said, oh, she's a two. And we didn't get a chance to go through that, but I could feel two, that's why she didn't wanna reading.

Stephanie: Ah, interesting.

Indra: I said, well, do you want a reading? And she said, well, no. I said, well, I think that's the pride and the shame. She didn't really wanna sit in it. She didn't want to hear it. It was too revealing for her. Yeah. At that particular moment.

Stephanie: Sure, sure. The readings, these aren't spot readings, are they? These, you have to have all this information in order to do the reading, right?

Indra: Well, I get the birth chart beforehand. Okay. But I don't really need to. At shows, I don't get the birth chart beforehand, but, it's nice for me to sit with the birth chart for a few days. And the Enneagram sometimes they tell me and sometimes they don't. I did a couple recently. They said, we're both twos. So I went with that, I said, both twos, that's pretty unusual. And I read up on it and it's a very unusual combination. And when I worked with them, it took me maybe 20 minutes at the beginning that, he was a nine and she's a six, which is actually the most popular combination. That they didn't actually know their numbers. And in fact, rather than being the rarest combination, they were actually the most popular combination.

Stephanie: The most common. And so Interesting.

Indra: And I remember one fellow, was living underneath me in India, we might have spent an hour or more trying to figure it out, and, and two months later, he still hadn't decided whether he was a four or a seven, they were both so strong that he could feel them both, and it doesn't really matter. You just go with both of them. You know, you just try to clear both of them.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. So the third modality that you work in is something that I had never heard of before, I have never heard of before, is it Yugas? Am I saying that right?

Indra: The Yugas, yes. Yes. The third modality I work the readings is the Wheel of Totality, this is all based on the yugas. The yugas are the cycles of the ages. The Greeks called it the Great Years, the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age, in India, they call them Yugas. The highest age is Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga is the next down, Dvapara Yuga, the energy age, and the lowest is Kali Yuga. And you may have heard the term Kali Yuga. It's a term like kharma that's kind of come into meaning, that's the densest age. Everybody in the world thinks that we're in Kali Yuga still. I have a teacher who says that we're in Dvapara Yuga, he predicted this before it happened.

We started in:

And again, I think that your 35 to 40, the 40 Drinks, it's all wrapped up in this same thing that whether you're having, you're not maybe having the breakthrough for spiritual enlightenment, but you're having a breakthrough that I can't be the daughter and the son that my parents wanted me to be. I can't conform to my partner's ideas. I can't conform to my boss's ideas of me anymore. I'm gonna scream. I'm gonna break down and die if I can't scream and find another way. That's what I've experienced with clients and from my own self.

Stephanie: Wonderful. You mentioned a moment ago that you'd like to offer a natal chart with some comments and the Enneagram quiz. Where might folks find that or how might they tap into that?

Indra: You can email me at or you go to the website, and their email contact is in there. Just write me and it's nice to know where people are living. It's not part of it, but, if you write, I'll send you back within a few days.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, and I'll put that information in the show notes for anybody who's listening. And, you will be receiving an email from me because after talking to you and hearing all this, I'm so very curious.

Indra: I think you'll find it tremendously enlightening.

Stephanie: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that information from you and maybe I'll talk about it in an upcoming episode. Indra, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing all this wealth of knowledge with us.

Indra: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.




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