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Brian Cross, known colloquially as B Plus, presents a compelling narrative as he delves into his remarkable odyssey from Limerick, Ireland, to the vibrant landscape of Los Angeles, where he has cultivated a multifaceted career as both a revered photographer and an integral figure within the hip-hop community. This episode encapsulates the essence of B Plus's journey, highlighting his deep-rooted connection to DJing and the transformative power of music in his life. Through a fascinating discourse, we explore how music has served as both a refuge and a catalyst for community, shaping his identity and artistic vision amidst the evolving cultural tapestry of America. With wit and insight, B Plus elucidates the intricacies of his craft, recounting the pivotal moments that have defined his trajectory, including collaborations with renowned artists and the nuanced dynamics of cultural representation in the visual arts. Join us as we traverse the intersections of music, photography, and community, gaining a profound appreciation for the artistry that transcends geographical boundaries and resonates universally.
Transcripts
Welcome back to want a DJ now on YouTube in video format.
Speaker A:There's been a bit of a delay in getting a new episode out as I've made the transition to video, but also just with August being a bit of a slow one.
Speaker A:But now normal service should be resumed.
Speaker A:Whether you're watching on YouTube or listening elsewhere, please, like, comment and subscribe and share because that'll help to grow the show and get more of the guests that you like.
Speaker A:This week I chatted with Brian Cross, AKA B.
Speaker A:If you're into hip hop, there's a good chance that he's either shot or filmed some of your favorite artists, but he's done way more than that.
Speaker A:We ended up doing about three hours and still left many stones unturned.
Speaker A:It could have very easily been six or seven.
Speaker A:Because this is such a long chat, I've split it into two parts.
Speaker A:So part one covers more of his origins and his backstory, his journey from Ireland to America.
Speaker A:And then part two focuses more on certain specific pieces of work and relationships in that community.
Speaker A:And I'll let you get back to the show now, but if you've got any feedback, just get in touch via Instagram at Once a DJ podcast or via email.
Speaker A:Once a DJ, podcastmail.com enjoy.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Once a DJ, everyone.
Speaker A:We're here with a man who's done an awful lot of things is probably the best way to put it.
Speaker A:Brian Cross, B plus.
Speaker A:How are you today?
Speaker B:Good, man.
Speaker B:Good, good, good.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Recovering from a long.
Speaker B:What they call a long haul flight.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how long is that then?
Speaker B:Well, if you fly direct, it's like 11 and a half hours.
Speaker B:But I didn't fly direct.
Speaker B:I prefer to break it up a little bit.
Speaker B:So the first leg is like nine hours and the second leg is like five hours.
Speaker B:So, yeah, from Sao Paulo to Atlanta, it's nine, and then from Atlanta to LA was five, basically.
Speaker B:Or the bones are five.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's basically as far as long as going from the uk really, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's further, really.
Speaker B:I think it doesn't feel as far.
Speaker B:I mean, if you from here to New York is six hours, and then from New York five and a half hours, and then from New York to Ireland is like six and a half.
Speaker B:So it's a bit shorter, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, but, yeah, you know, you don't get to find.
Speaker B:No, I'll stop right there.
Speaker B:I love Ireland, man.
Speaker B:And I mean, obviously I'm Irish, so, you know, there's that.
Speaker B:But yeah, there's something about landing and going to get a fresh bowl of acai and a really good coffee and Mr. Kenshi, which is what my daughter likes, which is basically like a toasted ham and cheese sandwich on a roll.
Speaker B:And just.
Speaker B:Okay, I'm in Brazil, so.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So let's go back then.
Speaker A:So you mentioned that you're from Ireland.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whereabouts in Ireland is it that you're from?
Speaker A:And how did the sort of love for music come into your life?
Speaker B:So I'm from Limerick, which is sort of secondary city in Ireland, in the southwest.
Speaker B:It's the capital of the southwest.
Speaker B:Southwest, they say a great city.
Speaker B:And music, I don't know.
Speaker B:Music was always a part of my life since I was very young.
Speaker B:I was terrified by the idea of it.
Speaker B:But I grew up around people who had what they still call sing songs, you know, where a certain time of the night, someone would spark up a song and everyone would join in and there'd be great cheering and clapping and then they'd go around the room and everybody would sing.
Speaker B:From quite a young age, I mean, I'm talking five or six.
Speaker B:I. I was fascinated by the radio.
Speaker B:That's really how I first kind of got into things.
Speaker B:And late at night in Ireland, you could tune in Radio Luxembourg.
Speaker B:And Radio Luxembourg at that time was kind of like the pop radio station of Europe.
Speaker B:I think it was primarily aimed at the uk, but obviously we could pick it up and then I would hear songs there before they were being played on the national station.
Speaker B:At that time, there was only one national station.
Speaker B:And honestly, they really weren't playing popular music per se.
Speaker B:They were playing traditional music, or they were playing what we would have considered like oldies, which would be like popular songs from the 50s and 60s.
Speaker B:But, you know, I mean, this is the 70s now or the early 80s.
Speaker B:And so I used to listen to Radio Luxembourg and then, yeah, I mean, that's how I first heard a lot of stuff, I guess.
Speaker B:I used to bring this big old thick radio from the kitchen in our house into my bedroom and put it under the pillow and then find Radio Luxembourg and then just listen and fall asleep.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:It's funny, man, I've.
Speaker B:I've kind of gone back to that.
Speaker B:Like, I still listen to the radio from home late at night to fall asleep sometimes if I can't sleep.
Speaker B:And I think that's, you know, I mean, that's.
Speaker B:I remember, you know, pointing out songs to people and being like, this is going to be a big song.
Speaker B:And then it would become a Big song.
Speaker B:And my brother, I was like, you have.
Speaker B:I don't know what it is, but you have a knack for that.
Speaker B:And so since very young, I had ears, basically.
Speaker B:I mean, to me, that's ears.
Speaker B:I mean, that's just means you have a sensitivity to music.
Speaker B:And so since I was very.
Speaker B:As young as I can remember, I had a sensitivity for music, but I never, like, I didn't play an instrument.
Speaker B:I didn't, you know, I mean, I just, that was something over there.
Speaker B:I was very, very shy.
Speaker B:So the notion of, like, performing in front of people or anything like that was kind of alien territory for me.
Speaker B:And then, you know, and I've had that.
Speaker B:And of course, it wasn't until, you know, a good 15 years later that I realized, like, actually, that's a really useful skill to have if you're going to be photographing musicians.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So since I was, you know, since as long as I can remember how I have a sensitivity for music, I could remember songs.
Speaker B:It's goofy because I see it in my daughter now, and, and I think a lot of folks have this.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:I, I, I.
Speaker B:Music, I think, is a.
Speaker B:It's a very special place for humans.
Speaker B:It's bizarre to me.
Speaker B:I have a.
Speaker B:A friend of mine, a good friend, a bass.
Speaker B:Bass player, everyone.
Speaker B:One of my oldest friends in this country, he plays with Jack Johnson.
Speaker B:His name is, right, Merlo Padlowski.
Speaker B:And Merlo told me one time, he was like, yeah, you know, that's music for people who don't like music.
Speaker B:And I was just like, wow, that's actually a cat.
Speaker B:I mean, there are people that don't like music, and then somehow they have to have music in their life, too.
Speaker B:And there's a kind of music that works for people who don't like music.
Speaker B:And that's kind of a crazy idea to me.
Speaker B:But I, I believe, I mean, yeah, I believe that to be true, you know, I mean, I'm not one of those people, but.
Speaker B:Well, you know, the way is, people say, oh, that's just.
Speaker B:That's music for musicians, right?
Speaker B:And it's kind of.
Speaker B:It's kind of derogatory, actually.
Speaker B:You know, when people say that, they're like, basically what they're saying to you is, is that this is difficult and has too many notes and only musicians will like it.
Speaker B:Well, the opposite of that then, of course.
Speaker B:Well, so that's one thing, okay?
Speaker B:And I don't think of that as derogatory.
Speaker B:I think of that if I was Making music and, and musicians liked, you know, and people said, oh, that's the, you know, kind of music that musicians like.
Speaker B:I'd feel like, okay, I'm doing something.
Speaker B:However, if people say, oh, that's music you're making there, that's for people who don't like music.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would be like, completely crestfallen.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, that's much worse.
Speaker B:You know, you make photos for people that don't like photography.
Speaker B:Imagine.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's kind of like, what.
Speaker B:But I really do believe it is a category, you know, I mean, there's a certain kind of commercial and I guess that's, that's what AI will be really, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:I mean, ultimately, you know, I mean, that's, that's what it is.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:You, I, I really particularly like music, but this is fine for the background or for the party playlist or in the elevator or at the supermarket or whatever.
Speaker B:Muzak, you know, was talking to my partner about this idea of like having a separate category for music produced without human.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Involvement as being a kind of separate category.
Speaker B:The way we think of like, Muzak.
Speaker B:That's not exactly music, is it?
Speaker B:I mean, it's just this kind of like almost music.
Speaker B:But I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, this is a, yeah, it's a very critical moment.
Speaker B:But anyways, yeah, long.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Very diverse answer.
Speaker B:Weird.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:From Limerick to AI in two minutes.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was a quick podcast.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:See you next time.
Speaker B:But yeah, so I, yeah, I, I, I, yeah, I grew up in a. I mean, I really only found out about it later, but, you know, I have uncles, I had an uncle who's sort of famously a great man for a sing song, which would be basically somebody who's sensitive to music and is into the notion of remembering songs.
Speaker B:My father would have been like that as a young fellow.
Speaker B:Music had a very important part to play in the kind of the sort of formation of the state, really.
Speaker B:I mean, this isn't just Ireland.
Speaker B:I mean, this is Colombia, Brazil, the United States in many respects too, you know, the way music becomes part of it.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, so I guess, like, did you, were you exposed then quite young to seeing how music brings like a community together based around it then?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I would say, I mean, I would have seen it in my, in my parents and my parents center, my grandparents generation.
Speaker B:However, I wouldn't have, I would have thought of that as something separate.
Speaker B:That was their thing for me, really.
Speaker B: in: Speaker B:And I mean, I'm saying things on tv, I'm not saying like live shows or nothing, but like, I remember RT running like, like RT is the national station running.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Kind of news pieces about like, you know, kids with weird hair and anti social behavior and this new music that was super aggressive.
Speaker B:And of course they didn't even know at first that like, you know, some of the key figures were, were Irish already, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like John Lydon is Irish, Shane McGowan is Irish.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you know, there's this kind of, there's a sense from a very young age that you could kind of organize yourself socially around music.
Speaker B:And you know, on the east coast of Ireland, on the west coast during the summer sometimes, if we were lucky, we'd be able to pick up John Peel.
Speaker B:In the late 70s in Ireland, we got Dave Fanning and started to have a rock show on the radio where they were playing kind of the newer things.
Speaker B:And for me it was really, I have to be honest, it was kind of a way to connect to the outside world more than connect to the immediate community around me.
Speaker B:But we, we.
Speaker B:You could what you could get, which was kind of a crazy thing, you could get the nme, Melody Maker, Sounds every week, the day they came out in England, the next day we'd have one and people would read.
Speaker B:We used to call it the Music comics but people used to read those religiously.
Speaker B:And you'd know the names of bands but you might never have heard the music, but you'd be like, you know, like.
Speaker B:I remember I read about Screedy Polity, for example, years before I heard Scree.
Speaker B:And that's the first time I ever heard the word deconstruction, for example.
Speaker B:And I was, you know, I was like 14 and I remember that like that was, was super impactful and the notion of somebody making the kind of music informed by American soul but also, you know, post punk music and then, you know, reading about French philosophy.
Speaker B:I mean this was all like super exciting and new and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, a connection to an outside world that, you know, wasn't part of my reality in many respects.
Speaker B:No, but that's how it was, what.
Speaker A:Was going on politically.
Speaker A:I, I like.
Speaker A:My history knowledge is terrible.
Speaker A:So I don't know where the focus of the troubles was and how that would have impacted you.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean I grew up, you Know, I mean it was.
Speaker B:I was born in 66.
Speaker B:That's the beginning of the civil rights movement.
Speaker B:I don't remember.
Speaker B:I mean I. I tell you the earlier, earliest things I remember, I remember.
Speaker B:I remember the Miami Shell Band.
Speaker B:That would have been 74, obviously.
Speaker B:The hunger strikes is like bang, right in the middle of my teenage years.
Speaker B:I remember coming home every.
Speaker B:We used to.
Speaker B:When I was in primary school.
Speaker B:So like between the ages of 4 and 12, the school was quite close to my house and we used to, you know, we'd have half an hour for 45 minutes or something for lunch and I would walk home, eat something at home and walk back to school.
Speaker B:And there was a one o' clock news on RT radio.
Speaker B:And I remember, yeah, every day, you know, it was like man was found dead on the road between Monahan and Da da da da.
Speaker B:And you know, and he was shocked several times.
Speaker B:He knew back and.
Speaker B:Or, you know, like all that kind of the kind of data, the sort of mundane day to day aspect of the troubles.
Speaker B:The war in the north of Ireland was very much part of our everyday.
Speaker B:I mean, it was quite normal to have a bomb scare.
Speaker B:Even though we were in the south now.
Speaker B:We were like 100 miles away, but there was bomb scares all the time.
Speaker B:Our house was searched a bunch.
Speaker B:You know, there was, there was kidnappings, you know, it was quite.
Speaker B:It felt quite.
Speaker B:I mean it felt very normal too.
Speaker B:It wasn't like we were in panic all the time or anything.
Speaker B:It felt like very normal.
Speaker B:But it felt like it was right there and it was very alive and.
Speaker B:And it was the kind of thing where, yeah, you were warned about speaking about politics.
Speaker B:You're warned about be careful when you open your mouth.
Speaker B:Don't talk about religion.
Speaker B:Don't.
Speaker B:You know, this kind of stuff was kind of common.
Speaker A:Do you think that then kind of enamored you more to the punk movement and what they were doing, using the medium for.
Speaker A:For that?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, like, obviously in Ireland you had like stiff little fingers, you had the undertones who were definitely speaking to the reality of that.
Speaker B:But, you know, nobody was immune.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, the Clash wrote songs about this.
Speaker B:I mean, it seemed like that's part of how we were understood in that moment, you know, I mean, when I first came to the states in 88, I often say this.
Speaker B:Like, I would say, where are you from?
Speaker B:I say I'm from Ireland.
Speaker B:And then people would make an explosion sound.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:I was like, okay.
Speaker B:You know, I remember the first time somebody Told me, I'm sure you've drank an Irish Car Bomb.
Speaker B:And I was like, what?
Speaker B:And it was like, is a drink called an Irish Car Bomb?
Speaker B:Or you drop a whiskey or something into a Guinness and it makes everything foam up, and then you're supposed to drink it down.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I mean, I think by the time I got to college, like, you know, Irish identity, Irish politics, the notion of a state or a free state or the.
Speaker B:The kind of.
Speaker B:The problem.
Speaker B:The credibility problem of the Free State was something that was spoken about very frequently, although often carefully, because.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, you.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:Yeah, you would never.
Speaker B:You never know who you're sitting next to.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:We used to go up to Belfast quite frequently on the train because it was cheap and the liquor was cheaper on the other side of the border.
Speaker B:So it was a kind of a normal thing for students to go up there and buy a bunch of cans and come back and you could get, like a cheap ticket with your student card or whatever, you know, I remember, baby, that hotel right there, that's the most bombed hotel in the world.
Speaker B:You know, this kind of stuff, like, you, like, oh, word.
Speaker B:Okay, that's crazy.
Speaker B:And we would wander around, and we were naive as hell, and, you know, I never really felt in danger.
Speaker B:Same in Dublin.
Speaker B:Wander around.
Speaker B:I mean, by the time I started to make.
Speaker B:Make photographs, I came into contact with folks that were involved in the Republican movement, and I never had a fear of it.
Speaker B:I never had a. I just felt like that was just part of who we were and where we lived and.
Speaker B:But what was good about it was, is that when I went to places like London then, and people would say, you know what, you went to Brixton at what time?
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:I'm saying Brixton, but it could have been anywhere at that time.
Speaker B:Actually, Notting Hill was.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, was a front line.
Speaker B:That's what they used to say.
Speaker B:It's a front.
Speaker B:That's a front line, which is basically a place where people sold weed openly on the street late at night.
Speaker B:I never had a fear.
Speaker B:I never had this kind of like, oh, my God, I shouldn't go there.
Speaker B:And so when I came to the States, yeah, I mean, it was kind of the same.
Speaker B:I never really felt like.
Speaker B:I mean, people live there.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, walk in.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm gonna walk in.
Speaker B:This is okay.
Speaker B:I mean, I. I come.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not coming with any harm.
Speaker B:I'm not looking for anything particularly.
Speaker B:I'm just having a Look, having a chat and seeing what's up and saying hi and whatever, and I never have.
Speaker B:I've never had that kind of fear which I see in other people.
Speaker B:And I do find, I do.
Speaker B:It does disturb me when I see it in other people because I feel like I don't think it's a great trait necessarily to be in fear of people.
Speaker B:I think love, and this is.
Speaker B:Goes back, but I've heard.
Speaker B:But I do say it about art, which I, Which I, Which I also believe.
Speaker B:But I. I also believe love is the same thing.
Speaker B:Love is an absence of fear, you know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If you can carry yourself like that in the world, actually can go a long way, man.
Speaker B:I mean, it's, it's, you know, people ask me all the time, like, you know, you came to LA and you end up going into these communities making photographs.
Speaker B:And mostly what I came across was generosity, man, honestly, you know, in the most difficult places.
Speaker B:And I dare say it, you know, I mean, in the other communities in the north, I mean, generally people are kind.
Speaker B:You're stuck, you need.
Speaker B:You're lost, you need to find some.
Speaker B:You're looking for a bathroom, you're looking for someplace to eat.
Speaker B:Generally people are cool.
Speaker B:You know, it's not the.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't, you know, most people, they're not going for the knife first, they're going for the how can I help you?
Speaker B:You know, and then it's like, oh, you're actually from the opposing community or what?
Speaker B:And it's generally people are chill.
Speaker B:I mean, it's not, you know, obviously here is different.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's more visible, obviously.
Speaker B:You don't even have to open your mouth.
Speaker B:And people have made up a.
Speaker B:Made something up about you potentially.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But generally people, you know, generally people are cool, you know, I mean, the thing that, the thing that is most disturbing about the moment that we're in, in many respects, especially at home, so much of the rhetoric is about fear, you know, I mean, fear of migrants.
Speaker B:What are you afraid of?
Speaker B:These people are absolutely at their most vulnerable in a place they don't know, with nothing, trying to do something to help their families, taken a huge risk.
Speaker B:And you're make.
Speaker B:Demonizing them, making them fearful, like, this is ridiculous, man.
Speaker B:And to see Irish people do it.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, man.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's a level of ignorance and vulnerable and gullibility.
Speaker B:I think that people.
Speaker A:I didn't know it was happening there.
Speaker A:It's certainly something we're getting a lot.
Speaker B:Oh, no, man.
Speaker B:What's Crazy about it is these so called Irish nationalists are following the, for example, the, the St. George's Cross flags everywhere scenario.
Speaker B:They're doing tri color flags everywhere.
Speaker B:They're, you know, what's the guy's name?
Speaker B:Cooper or what's the idiotic dude?
Speaker B:Obviously Farage.
Speaker B:But there's the sort of more street guy who was caught recently abusing somebody in a subway or whatever.
Speaker B:But they follow these people.
Speaker B:You know, the Internet is a, you know, it's just, it's a terrible place, man.
Speaker B:Many respects for this kind of thing, but there is this kind of copycatness.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, we have problems with them too.
Speaker B:No, you don't.
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:You know, but ostensibly not to go completely off topic, but I think the important thing to remember is, is that, and I think this is something from the perspective of Ireland, from the perspective of the UK certainly.
Speaker B:And, and certainly here is that there are people who've not managed to fulfill the kinds of promises that they claimed they would.
Speaker B:It's easier for them now.
Speaker B:I, I honestly believe that, that, that, that these kind of far right figures are being enabled.
Speaker B:I don't think that, you know, I don't think that this is some organic thing that popped up by itself.
Speaker B:I don't believe that for a minute they are being enabled.
Speaker B:There is an agenda here that's much far darker, that's underneath and it is.
Speaker B:The problem of our neoliberal governments is that they've allowed huge sections of our communities to go untended, let's say, you know, with lack, with the lack of resources, with a lack of any real attention, you know, the sort of multigenerational unemployment and multigenerational poverty with no hope really in sight.
Speaker B:And eventually this is a, you know, it's a pot that will boil and when it will boil, as opposed to what, what you would hope is that people would come to the left and understand what's what this is about.
Speaker B:But inevitably it's also too easy for people to, and Trump is a great example of this.
Speaker B:It's too easy for people to move to the, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's something I was thinking about earlier.
Speaker A:If you spoke to the people that are putting all the focus on the migration and, and were to say to him, what is it that, what's the actual thing in your situation that makes you feel like this?
Speaker A:And then trace that back to what the actual cause of it is.
Speaker A:They probably view things a bit differently.
Speaker B:I know, but unfortunately, and this is a problem with the media and it's a problem with the education system is that we don't train people to be able to make those kinds of arguments and those kinds of, you know, to follow those kinds of paths.
Speaker B:We don't.
Speaker B:And so as a result, you know, the, the shortcut is it's them and it's not them.
Speaker B:Inevitably it isn't.
Speaker B:You know, yes, you may be competing with these people for resources.
Speaker B:You may feel legitimately aggrieved about the fact that it seems like they're getting more resources than you.
Speaker B:But the issue is why are we fighting over, you know, a tenth of the cake when the other 90% is held by this 1% that don't pay taxes, that generate, you know, that a lot of times don't even, you know, exist in one country at a time?
Speaker B:These people that are, you know.
Speaker B:And it's not necessarily a situation of blaming the rich, but systemically we empower the rich to, you know.
Speaker B:And so, so where did you, you, where was the music again?
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker A:So the next thing I was going to ask you about is so we, you'd got to the point of like the punk movement and how that made you feel.
Speaker A:And I, I started asking about the politics around the troubles.
Speaker A:So going back to music and stuff, then what came first for you?
Speaker A:Cameras or turntables in awareness and connection to them?
Speaker B:Actually, even though I got a turntable in my house quite late.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's nothing quite like watching a tone arm descend onto a piece of vinyl and just magically hearing, you know, I don't know, like in my day, like I don't know the Police or Skids or the Clash or, you know, I mean I'm, I'm really a, I'm a proud.
Speaker B:I mean that's the area I came from.
Speaker B:I, I, I will say this.
Speaker B:A moment that I didn't realize was as important as it was when it happened is when I was around 13 or 14, I have, my father's first cousin, John Cross invited me to as a summer job to paint his man cave for him.
Speaker B:You know, he had like this room that was kind of a Mac was a single guy.
Speaker B:He lived with his mom.
Speaker B:He lived like a few doors up from us.
Speaker B:And I went there and he had a big stack of records.
Speaker B:But whatever way it worked out for me, I start to become really enamored by these, all these crazy looking records that would have like the head of a lion on the COVID and it would be say like the lion of dub.
Speaker B:And I'll be like, damn, what the hell is this.
Speaker B:And so while I was doing this painting and I started to listen to these records and I made a couple of cassettes of ones that I liked.
Speaker B:And sure, I had those cassettes.
Speaker B:So that would have been 13.
Speaker B:I had those cassettes for years.
Speaker B:I mean, it was like.
Speaker B:I never got tired of it.
Speaker B:And I would say that.
Speaker B:I don't know if I.
Speaker B:If I necessarily would have told the story like this at the time or even into my 20s, but I realized in retrospect that that actually was very sort of instrumental.
Speaker B:Foundational moment for me was finding Gub Records in my father's.
Speaker B:Like my.
Speaker B:It would be like an uncle to me more, but he's technically.
Speaker B:He's my father's first cousin at his house and being just completely enamored by the.
Speaker B:Just the sound just.
Speaker B:It was just.
Speaker B:I wasn't prepared for it.
Speaker B:I had no reference.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't even really.
Speaker B:I don't think I.
Speaker B:If you would ask me, I don't think I really knew the relationship of that to reggae even.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:I was like.
Speaker B:This was a whole separate category.
Speaker B:Didn't have the names of groups on them as far as I was aware, you know.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker B:Tubby was basically Tubby and Cox and Dodd and Lee Scratch.
Speaker B:I didn't know who they were.
Speaker B:I didn't, you know, I mean, I didn't even know what this was.
Speaker B:I didn't even know.
Speaker B:This was a whole other category of music.
Speaker B:But that those tapes lasted a long time and dub has never left.
Speaker B:I mean, I've always listened to dub.
Speaker B:It's always been a part of my thing.
Speaker A:Did you first.
Speaker A:When you were around there and painting, did he have a good system to listen to them on?
Speaker B:It wasn't great, but it was.
Speaker B:By what I.
Speaker B:By comparison to what I was used to, it was.
Speaker B:Yeah, it sounded, you know, I mean, you could turn it up and it was banging.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Because I think having that as you wait to listen to something like dub is quite significant.
Speaker A:If you can hear it loud and you can hear it bassy.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:But I mean, if you can imagine at that moment we did, you know, it's not like we had, you know, I mean, it's a working class family.
Speaker B:I didn't, you know, I mean, we didn't have.
Speaker B:We had a tape.
Speaker B:A tape recorder.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And actually I remember hearing Mikey Dread one time and Mikey Dread used the sound of a toilet flushing at the beginning of one.
Speaker B:His.
Speaker B:One of his big dub Joints.
Speaker B:And I remember thinking like I had done that, like with our little tape recorder.
Speaker B:Like, I had, you know, I would record things around the house.
Speaker B:I had recorded the sound of the toilet flushing and I was just kind of like, whoa, know.
Speaker B:But the whole.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, the world of sound as a kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, that was significant.
Speaker B:That was a very significant thing.
Speaker B:And, you know, relative.
Speaker B:We didn't even have a record player.
Speaker B:So, like, anything would have sounded good to me, honestly, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So probably it was like one of those old three in ones or something, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like where, like have a radio and have their record player to have a cassette deck.
Speaker B:Yeah, something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So when did visual arts become a love for you?
Speaker B:So at the same time, my dad could draw.
Speaker B:And when we were kids, yeah, we, you know, if we were ever bored or whatever, we would have these kind of, you know, me and my sister and my dad would have these kind of competitions where we would draw things.
Speaker B:And that's kind of the start of it, really.
Speaker B:And I was good at it.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I don't know, it was one of those things where I felt.
Speaker B:I felt comfortable in.
Speaker B:Felt like it was a.
Speaker B:It was something that was close.
Speaker B:It was something that you didn't have to share until you were done or until you were happy that you were done.
Speaker B:And yeah, it interested me.
Speaker B:It was something that was of interest to me.
Speaker B:I was good at sports too.
Speaker B:And certainly there was a moment in my life where it was like, you know, don't go to college, play rugby.
Speaker B:Semi.
Speaker B:It wasn't professional at that time.
Speaker B:So semi professionally, where they'd get you a job at a bank or whatever so that you could train and play, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:And that was a thought.
Speaker B:I don't know if I would.
Speaker B:If I would have ever been much.
Speaker B:Up to much.
Speaker B:I mean, I played provincial intra provincial at schools level, so I was definitely.
Speaker B:And I was big, so I was definitely somebody they had an eye on, but I just didn't.
Speaker B:I never got to that point.
Speaker B:I was never that tough.
Speaker B:I was never.
Speaker B:I never felt I was that good.
Speaker B:So, yeah, drawing, you know, kind of informed my decisions in terms of, you know, what I wanted to do after secondary school.
Speaker B:So I went to art school, but I've never felt.
Speaker B:I've always felt like somebody who learned it.
Speaker B:I never felt like I was, you know, I know people that are.
Speaker B:And I certainly met people very quickly in art school who were people that, since DOT could draw or since dot were really Good photographers or since DOT were amazing at making things and I was never that.
Speaker B:I was always more interested in the ideas, honestly.
Speaker B:I mean, it sounds almost cliche by now, but it was the ideas that was most of interest to me.
Speaker B:And that's what's really struck me about photography was that there was a kind of immediacy to it that I really appreciated, you know, not so much as a kind of reportage thing, but the notion that you could have an idea and see it all the way through to execution in a few hours, really, you know, and I never thought I would.
Speaker B:I never saw the two worlds coming together.
Speaker B:I never saw it like, yeah, this music thing and this photo thing, we're eventually gonna EEP that.
Speaker B:That came in grad school and it was kind of a surprise.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then it kind of turned into a job kind of, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:And then it's just one of those things where over the years people appreciate the fact that I'm, I am somebody who has a deeper understanding of music, but he's not a musician, but who could, who understands musicians even if I can't read music or nothing, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:But, but then has a, an interest in finding ways to translate that, if you will, into, in the broadest sense into, you know, visual form or whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So from what I've read, you had quite a unique situation that enabled you to go over to California for university.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did you want to go to America first or did you go to America through.
Speaker A:Because it was a passport initiative in Ireland, wasn't it?
Speaker B:No, in the U.S. oh, sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was like, I mean, it's, it's basically the forgiveness path of what they should be doing now.
Speaker B:You know, it's, it's.
Speaker B:As opposed to this kind of deport them all kind of idiot idiocy.
Speaker B:It was a kind of compromise that happened between the Democrats and the Republicans in the era of Reagan.
Speaker B:It was between.
Speaker B:Initiated between Reagan and Tip o' Neill.
Speaker B:And there was a senator called Donnelly, an Irish American senator from the east coast.
Speaker B:And there was just an extraordinary amount of Irish people living in this country illegally.
Speaker B:And they introduced this kind of forgiveness program where if you had lived here for a certain amount of time, you could prove that you had paid taxes and da, da, da, da, they would allow you a path to citizenship.
Speaker B:And for new people they offered this.
Speaker B:It was like a lottery basically, you know, and they put ads in the Irish newspapers on the Sunday newspapers basically saying, you know, send a self addressed envelope to this address in D.C. with a photocopy of this and this.
Speaker B:And we'll just pick the names and we'll offer you a green card.
Speaker B:And that's mad.
Speaker B:It's mad.
Speaker B:I mean, when you think of it now, it's bananas, but.
Speaker B:But, you know, the.
Speaker B:The social problems of migration were.
Speaker B:You know, it's not like this is new.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:We've had this.
Speaker B:It's just we've been dealing with it in different ways, or not dealing with it, which is kind of what's been going on for the past 20 years in this country.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, so my mom had applied for me when I was 16.
Speaker B:I was even unaware of it.
Speaker B:I. I had no memory of my mom saying, I'm sending.
Speaker B:You know, she would have sent off an envelope for everybody in the family.
Speaker B:Some people sent off like 50 envelopes, but.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So then when I finished undergrad, I spent a year in Limerick.
Speaker B:I decided that I wasn't going to be able to get a job that was.
Speaker B:Would protect my sanity.
Speaker B:And I decided I should go to grad school because at least then I'd be eligible to teach.
Speaker B:And, yeah, there was a few places in Europe I was thinking about, but I had gone to the Slade as an exchange student, and I was kind of.
Speaker B:I don't know, I felt it was too similar to the kind of education I had received in our end.
Speaker B:And so I started looking at the States.
Speaker B:I applied to.
Speaker B:I only applied to two schools.
Speaker B:I applied to Cal Arts and I applied to Columbia.
Speaker B:I was interested in studying with Edward Said, which didn't happen because I didn't have the right requirements to do Comparative Language Studies, which I don't know why I was thinking that I could do that, but.
Speaker B:And then I applied to CalArts.
Speaker B:And after I had applied to CalArts, like, maybe a month later, a letter came from the American Embassy.
Speaker B:And I. I thought it was something to do with the fact that I had just applied to CalArts.
Speaker B:That made sense to me.
Speaker B:And I was kind of like, wow, these Americans are really on top of their.
Speaker B:And it wasn't.
Speaker B:It was that my mom had applied in my name six years earlier.
Speaker B:And I got accepted and it was really.
Speaker B:And then it was kind of, well, I should go.
Speaker A:Yeah, Serendipity.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's kind of serendipity.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it's like, I should go then.
Speaker B:So then I just.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Did all the exams, told a few little white lies and kept it moving.
Speaker B: And In April of: Speaker B:Basically the bones of a green card.
Speaker B:Basically the actual card came later, but yeah.
Speaker B:And ended up getting accepted to CalArts.
Speaker B: ed at CalArts in September of: Speaker B:There's 12 of us was a very important time, really, for me.
Speaker B:I didn't realize it, obviously, until much later, but it was a significant period.
Speaker B:I. I was very broke, and I was working 32 hours a week in a camera store, which meant that I had very little time for anything other than classes and homework and work, you know, working at the camera store.
Speaker B:But somehow, through the madness, yeah, I walked out the other end with a publishing contract for what became.
Speaker B:It's not about a salary, there's a dean.
Speaker B:And then that really changed my life.
Speaker B:I mean, that really, really, really changed my life.
Speaker B:And I'm meeting those people in that moment.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:When you finished uni, you came out of it with the publishing deal?
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker A:Can you expand on that?
Speaker B:That sounds so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So basically, the end of the first.
Speaker B:First year at school, this professor that I had become friends with, Mike Davis, had published a book, which.
Speaker B:It was successful from the beginning, but after the rebellion of 92 in LA, like the Rodney King rebellion, it became.
Speaker B:I mean, it's an important book just in terms of the history of Los Angeles.
Speaker B:Maybe it's the most significant book in terms of the history of Los Angeles, but also in terms of kind of urban studies or like, how do we understand a City?
Speaker B:It was a very important book because just chapter by chapter, it kind of unpacks, you know, different aspects of the city.
Speaker B:And it doesn't pretend to narrate the city.
Speaker B:In many respects it does, but in a kind of very fragmented and interesting way.
Speaker B:Fragmented, an interconnected way.
Speaker B:And so Mike, you know, at this.
Speaker B:In the summer of what would it have been?
Speaker B:91, he approached me, you know, he said, like, what are you doing for the summer?
Speaker B:I'm working this camera store.
Speaker B:And not much else.
Speaker B:And he was like, yeah, but all you do is talk about hip hop.
Speaker B:How come you've never.
Speaker B:How come you don't photograph it?
Speaker B:And I didn't really have an answer.
Speaker B:I kind of said.
Speaker B:I don't know if I said something.
Speaker B:Probably like, well, I'm sure there's other people photographing it.
Speaker B:I don't know what kind of answer that is, but.
Speaker B:So he suggested he was doing something.
Speaker B:He was editing an issue of a French kind of academic magazine.
Speaker B:And he said, you know, it'd be really cool if you made a photo essay about this scene in la, you know, And I. I wasn't even photographing people at that period.
Speaker B:I was photographing landscape.
Speaker B:I was interested in history, I was interested in the landscape.
Speaker A:Were you part of that LA community at that point?
Speaker B:No, not at all.
Speaker B:I mean, I would.
Speaker B:As a fan.
Speaker B:I was going to gigs and stuff, but yeah, I wasn't part of the community.
Speaker B:Not at all.
Speaker B:I knew nobody.
Speaker B:I mean, I would go as a punch her and pay money and see things and go home.
Speaker A:Would.
Speaker A:Had you developed the.
Speaker A:The love for hip hop while you were in Ireland, or was it more when you got there?
Speaker B:Like, 84, 85 was where I first started to really listen to hip hop.
Speaker B:I mean, for me, Mantronics was a really big deal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But Public Enemy was a really big deal.
Speaker B:KS1 was a really big deal.
Speaker B:I'd come to the US for the first time in 88 and, you know, on a student work visa and was supposed to save money for college and ended up coming home with a bunch of records, which in the end, kind of proved to be a bit fortuitous because I.
Speaker B:It was the beginning of something that would turn into something that would sort of change my life.
Speaker B:But I. I didn't know that yet.
Speaker B:And I was just following my gut, you know, I was just like, this is amazing.
Speaker B:I want to know more.
Speaker B:And not many people know about it at home, and we don't have access to this kind of material at home.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna, you know.
Speaker B:So that's why I was always talking about hip hop at grad school, you know, because really, for me, honestly, you know, after all the TV and all the cinema and all the other kinds of music, whether it be folk or whether it be blues or whether it be rock and roll, the thing that best helped me understand the US in that period was hip hop.
Speaker B:And so to me, I was kind of constantly.
Speaker B:Found myself advocating for it in grad school to the point where, like, yeah, cats were clown off of that because I was always talking about it.
Speaker B:But then, interestingly enough, like, you know, I'd meet people that were like, I would have considered really heavy, and they all had a soft spot for it.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:So I knew I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker B:Like, I was, you know, there's something to this.
Speaker B:Pay attention, you know.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, so then Mike just kind of challenged me, like, yeah, why don't you go make photos of this?
Speaker B:And I don't know, I was 24 or 25.
Speaker B:And I'm just kind of like, okay, he's offering me money to do something, maybe I should do it.
Speaker B:You know, that's the kind of little spark that caused, you know, the rest of my life to happen, kind of springs forth and from that moment.
Speaker B:And obviously it took a while and, you know, even after the book came out, it was quite difficult and challenging.
Speaker B:And I mean, the book on one side got critically.
Speaker B:Was, you know, it was taken very seriously and praised very highly.
Speaker B:But on the other side, within the hip hop community, the book itself was kind of.
Speaker B:It's not about a salary.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Was drew some ire and some scorn, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:I remember the source saying things like, I should stay, stick to writing about Sinead o'.
Speaker B:Connor.
Speaker B:And you two.
Speaker A:How did you deal with things like that at the time?
Speaker B:Well, it was difficult.
Speaker B:I'm too sensitive, you know, so that.
Speaker B:That was hard.
Speaker B:It's also part of, I think, part of where B came out of, like, people.
Speaker B:Jeff Chang, who I knew at that time, start to call me B because I would write B with a cross next to it at the bottom of my photos.
Speaker B:And he started, ah, you're B, bro.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And B seemed like a way to.
Speaker B:Somehow I didn't need to be the guy that wrote the book then if I didn't want to.
Speaker B:And then it was just fine.
Speaker B:It was fine.
Speaker B:I. I was just.
Speaker B:The photos are by B.
Speaker B:That's fine.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was definitely a challenging moment.
Speaker B:I felt like it was understandable, part of a kind of cultural nationalist argument at that period.
Speaker B:But in real terms, I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, I've never considered myself the enemy in.
Speaker B:In my most honest heart to heart shit with myself.
Speaker B:I've never seen myself as the enemy of this.
Speaker B:I've only always ever looked at myself as somebody who tries to do my best to honor the music and honor the culture.
Speaker B:And so I felt like it was kind of, dude, if you want to see the Enemy, it's very obvious who the Enemy is.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, at that period, it was very obvious.
Speaker B:And funny enough, the guy who wrote this ended up, you know, spent the rest of his life working for the Enemy.
Speaker B:So this guy makes me giggle, you know, but for every one Rock Throne, there was a thousand hugs and a thousand thank yous.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it was, you know, it was.
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker B:I mean, I did get threatening phone calls in that period, and it was a little weird, but it never stopped me from doing anything or Going anywhere I wanted to go.
Speaker A:You know, were there threatening phone calls to do with the message that you were trying to get out and people that didn't want that getting out?
Speaker B:No, it was about my subjectivity.
Speaker B:It was about the notion that, oh, okay, so here comes some dudes, not even American, he's some white dude from Ireland of all places, suddenly comes in and now has decided he is entitled to speak.
Speaker B:And there is some legitimacy to that.
Speaker B:You know, However, I always feel like, and I mean, I. I would say this about any situation, which is that in general, you know, in terms of representational politics, I think we have to be ardent, we have to be forceful and assertive that it is important to ground all this sort of discussion in the community that produces this culture, be it hip hop or be it anything else, jazz, or be it Irish traditional music.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But at the same time, we would be silly to exclude people who come with a genuine sensitivity and intelligence, who aren't masking this as a way to steal things or claim things for theirs or do anything other than center folks of African descent in terms of the culture.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, I think this is important.
Speaker B:I mean, I think there's, you know, there's a way that culture functions as a kind of meeting place.
Speaker B:And of course, these meeting places have their own internal rules, regulations, manners.
Speaker B:But if you, if you accept that, and if you accept that, you shouldn't always be the first to speak, you shouldn't be the loudest person in the room, you should spend most of your time listening.
Speaker B:I think it's fair at a certain point that, you know, if you're somebody who's serious and who's has a certain kind of sensitivity that you.
Speaker B:Your voice is also important.
Speaker B:But the problem is, is that by virtue of the, the way that the culture is constructed, too much of the time people will come to me for an opinion faster than they will come to somebody from the community or somebody who's, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:And, and this is.
Speaker B:This is problematic.
Speaker B:And it's something I have a responsibility to address, and I have a responsibility to address in terms of the mainstream culture.
Speaker B:And I try.
Speaker B:I mean, we.
Speaker B:Each one tries, but then, you know, it's hard.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I mean, I bear no malice or grudges about this kind of thing.
Speaker B:I mean, I think it's all fair game.
Speaker B:I am an outsider here.
Speaker B:You know, I am somebody who's benefited, who's lived a life that has benefited tremendously from the generosity of people of color in this.
Speaker B:In this.
Speaker B:In this culture.
Speaker B:And I would be remiss to say that every time I speak and I try to as best as I can, but, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when you did the book, then, did you have someone facilitating just so.
Speaker A:Just for people that don't know.
Speaker A:The sort of artists that you were interviewing are people like Gil Scott Heron, Ice T, Ice Cube, DJ Quick is Easy E. You know, these are pretty successful people in, you know, in a lot of cases, in the peaks of their careers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Was it hard to get their time and get their buy into the project and get their trust?
Speaker A:I guess.
Speaker B:Yes and no.
Speaker B:I mean, it was difficult to get people's attention enough to make space for you.
Speaker B:But, you know, I was somebody who had a little bit of cachet.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:By that point, I was starting to be somebody who.
Speaker B:You know, there was a free magazine in LA at the time called Herb.
Speaker B:I was the hip hop photographer in the.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The magazine.
Speaker B:So now I.
Speaker B:Now I know who the publicist is for Ice Cube.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:She's the publicist for all the artists on priority.
Speaker B:And she wants me to let her use photos or can I go to this video.
Speaker A:Got it.
Speaker B:Shoot.
Speaker B:Or whatever.
Speaker B:And then there was just the kind of, you get the co sign, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like, I got the cosign from the Freestyle Fellowship.
Speaker B:And then weirdly enough, that's how I ended up working with DJ Shadow, because he really admired the Freestyle Fellowship and realized how important they were.
Speaker B:And so that was a kind of, oh, well, if they're cool with them, then there's a good likelihood that I can be cool with them.
Speaker B:And obviously then you meet him and you realize, oh, actually he's okay, I can work with him.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So there was a certain amount of that.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it was a lot of patience, just accepting that I was the lowest thing on the totem pole and realizing that, you know, eventually they'll get to you and not take it personally.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And I tried to, you know, I.
Speaker B:In fairness, I mean, I'm.
Speaker B:These are good lessons to bring with you into the world about anything.
Speaker B:You know, it's like in terms of how you deal with your family, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:It's like, this is good stuff.
Speaker A:This is the interesting stuff I found with doing this.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:For every person who I get on, who gives me their time, there's probably at least two that they either don't have the time, or sometimes I think they just.
Speaker A:There's not the Trust there, you know, and you can know that you've only got the kind of good intentions, but it's for someone who's busy and has probably got a lot of people around them that maybe at times don't.
Speaker A:It's just super hard to get that trust without a cosine.
Speaker A:So it's really.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's really interesting to hear your sort of take on that.
Speaker B:The cosine is everything, really.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, the cosine is very important.
Speaker B:It's a real currency in this music, in this culture for sure.
Speaker B:The cosign is.
Speaker A:Yeah, everything.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So then you mentioned the freestyle fellowship.
Speaker A:What really surprised me that I'd not known previously was that, was that you did the COVID and that's a drawn cover.
Speaker A:So is that your.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Is that your illustration?
Speaker B:No, no, no, no.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:No, no, that's an artist.
Speaker B:A very well known artist at the time.
Speaker B:His name escapes me.
Speaker B:I can only see his face.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Is your art direction then?
Speaker B:No, they had the painting.
Speaker B:I did the photos inside and I photographed the painting for them to use.
Speaker B:In fact, I didn't even photograph it.
Speaker B:A very famous photographer called Kathy Oakley made the photograph and she was much better at this than me.
Speaker B:And I asked her to do it for me as a favor, basically.
Speaker B:But I was very closely involved in that period with them.
Speaker B:I was kind of like their biggest booster locally.
Speaker B:And they were really something very special.
Speaker B:I mean, I would say the things that I learned from them and the culture around them in that period have kind of informed.
Speaker B:Have really informed everything I've done since, be honest.
Speaker B:You know, they introduced me to Horace Tapscott.
Speaker B:They introduced me to the black arts movement in South Central.
Speaker B:They introduced me to jazz in a significant way that I was.
Speaker B:Even though I had studied it in grad school and I had listened to it since, you know, really, I don't think I properly started listening to jazz till I was probably 19 or 20.
Speaker B:But you know what I'm saying, like, you know, in a very short period of time around them, I learned a lot.
Speaker B:You know, I learned a significant amount.
Speaker B:And they really, you know, that's.
Speaker B:That's when the.
Speaker B:That's when things start to get deep, so to speak, is what was with them and sort of learning to.
Speaker B:To understand that just cause something doesn't land on your ears the first time you hear it doesn't necessarily mean that it is bad necessarily or that in fact, often it can mean the opposite.
Speaker B:It can mean it's something that challenges Your expectation of what music should do enough to where, you know, you should pay attention to it.
Speaker B:So, you know, so.
Speaker B:Because I didn't.
Speaker B:For example, like, I didn't think Micah9 was as significant a rapper as he really was when I first heard him.
Speaker B:And for me, that's weird, you know, I mean, I was the type of cat at that period where I was pretty good.
Speaker B:Like, I could tell.
Speaker B:Oh, no, he's.
Speaker B:That's real.
Speaker B:He's serious.
Speaker B:And somehow with Micah, it was just so off to me that I was just talking about what.
Speaker B:And then, and then I heard it and then when I.
Speaker B:And then I couldn't unhear it, and then it was kind of like, it really messed with me.
Speaker B:It messed with my capacity to understand.
Speaker B:Like, it.
Speaker B:It made me realize, like, nah, like you have some learning to do.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I mean, that was kind of Fellowship was the beginning of that for me, in many respects, you know, and everybody that came with them, from the far side to volume 10 to the whole Good Life Amalgamation to Project Blow to, you know, AB Rude and, and.
Speaker B:And, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like, all the cats I met in that period that, you know, omd.
Speaker B:I mean, it was so many amazing ganja case, so many amazing cockneyo, so many amazing MCs, divine styler, you know, and I mean, and I met.
Speaker B:And I met Cyprus and House of Pain at the same period and they didn't share.
Speaker B:You know, I remember even DJ Quick was just kind of like, man, I don't even get it.
Speaker B:I don't understand, you know, and.
Speaker B:And then now it's funny to see people like Snoop and, And Warren G. I don't know if you've seen that on the Hip Hop Evolution show, but there's this moment where they're like, ah, man, the Freestyle fellowship.
Speaker B:We used to drive around listening to them, wondering what the they were talking about, you know, I mean, it was kind of, you know, it's nice.
Speaker B:It is weird because it all seemed very.
Speaker B:If you were in the moment, you would imagine that it was, you know, over here you have all these underground dudes, and over here you have all these gangster dudes, and then there's kind of this huge space in the middle where.
Speaker B:But it wasn't like that at all, you know, I mean, it was.
Speaker B:They were all listening to each other.
Speaker B:I mean, it was clarity, you know, I mean, it was all kinds of cross fertilization happening.
Speaker B:Anybody that had a good idea was.
Speaker B:Was worth paying attention to.
Speaker A:Yeah, because didn't Tupac Come through sometimes to the good life.
Speaker B:Never seen Tupac there.
Speaker B:I don't know if he did.
Speaker B:He might have.
Speaker B:I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker B:Snoop certainly did.
Speaker B:Snoop was even on one of their cassette compilations.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, Bone Thugs and Harmony famously came through there.
Speaker B:They say that's a big part of why Bone Thugs and Harmony sounded the way they did.
Speaker B:I mean, there's a lot of cats pick things up.
Speaker B:I mean, but it was, you know, it was.
Speaker B:The hip hop was kind of a forum, an open forum for good ideas in that period, you know?
Speaker B:Know, it was like there was no, you can't do this or you can't do that.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, there was definitely people trying to hold those opinions, but it was really, you know, whoever made the best argument won.
Speaker B:And, you know, and they were making a pretty strong argument.
Speaker A:So given everything that was going on at that time in that scene, did you kind of realize how significant.
Speaker A:And not just you, but did people in general realize how significant it was?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:I mean, just.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:I mean, we were broke.
Speaker B:It seemed like the only way to get money in that moment was by signing a record deal.
Speaker B:And yet most of the people I knew, you know, their record deals amounted to nothing in terms of, you know, finances, in terms of making things that were moving the needle.
Speaker B:I think there were certainly a few of us that realized we were seeing things that.
Speaker B:No, it didn't exist anywhere else.
Speaker B:And that in and of itself, somehow is something, even though we were too young to realize how important that might be.
Speaker B:I even introduce it, dude.
Speaker B:Like, I mean, it wasn't like, you know, I mean, I knew I liked it.
Speaker B:I knew I was probably going to end up listening to it for a long time and that I had never heard anything quite like that.
Speaker B:But then you don't think, like, in 30 years they'll be putting out the Abbey Road remastered version.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, or the free first Freestyle Fellowship album will be reissued as a historical piece with your photos.
Speaker B:And I didn't, you know, initially, I didn't do the photos for the first album, which was the completely independent one.
Speaker B:And then we'll be nominated for a Grammy as a historical, you know, reissue, which it absolutely should have been, which is wonderful.
Speaker B:I mean, they didn't win.
Speaker B:Weezer won.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:But, like, Weezer needed it.
Speaker B:But nonetheless, it was an acknowledgment that, like, this is a significant piece of art, and it is a significant piece of art.
Speaker B:Did we realize that at the time?
Speaker B:We did in our cars or in our headphones and we certainly shouted it from the rooftops.
Speaker B:But, you know, we.
Speaker B:We weren't anybody then.
Speaker B:I don't know if we're anybody now.
Speaker B:But, you know, the art has.
Speaker B:Has continued to live, you know, I mean, there are a lot of projects from that period that haven't been rediscovered, which hopefully they will be eventually.
Speaker B:But I don't think.
Speaker B:I don't know that you ever do, man.
Speaker B:Honestly, you know, like, it's pretty.
Speaker B:Pretty.
Speaker B:History is weird.
Speaker B:Like, I'll say this, like, the week I did Introducing, I also did Soul on Ice for Rascaz.
Speaker B:And I felt absolutely sure that the.
Speaker B:The Rascaz record was going to be, you know, the illmatic of the west coast and that the DJ Shadow would be a cool thing, but, you know, it would be a cool thing.
Speaker B:Put up with some indie label in England.
Speaker B:I've kind of, you know, interesting oddity, you know, I mean, whatever.
Speaker B:Like it was something that we love, but that necessarily we don't know that everybody else is going to figure it out or it would reach a kind of, you know, have a kind of zeitgeist attached to it, like where it's.
Speaker B:For many people, it perfectly describes how they felt in that moment.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't know.
Speaker B:That's a very specific skill.
Speaker B:It's a very specific kind of luck to that, I think so.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know you actually really.
Speaker B:That's hard.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's future telling.
Speaker B:That's kind of challenging stuff.
Speaker A:And I suppose when you talk about pushing the needle, I mean, that really did push the needle for sampling, didn't it?
Speaker A:Kind of how you're sourcing and what you're doing with them.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, he really.
Speaker B:The thoroughness and the kind of discipline with which he constructed that.
Speaker B:I mean, for some people, it was.
Speaker B:It left them feeling kind of dry, you know, those people that never got it, you know, people that I admired that never got it.
Speaker B:But then for the rest of us, it was kind of like, wow, you know, he pushed through a limit there that nobody realized existed and made something that was truly important, you know, and that resonated in the end, I think, you know, there's the kind of level of it, like where it's like he figured out something about sampling that nobody else has figured out is kind of the inside track of being like, you know, that's a fantastic piece of work.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But emotionally, and the way people became attached to it emotionally and are still attached to it emotionally, is that's another thing.
Speaker B:I mean, that's kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, that's really the sort of.
Speaker B:For me, the kind of.
Speaker B:The merit of it as a piece of art is inscribed in those terms.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:I don't have an example I can give you, but there are records where they broke a line that nobody else realized was there.
Speaker B:But then if it doesn't resonate with people at an emotional level, even if it's a small group of people, somehow you didn't do the job.
Speaker B:I mean, that's why To Pimp a Butterfly will always be a more important record than Damn for me, because emotionally, he really reached something there.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's an amazing record too, don't get me wrong.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not saying it's just, you know, and so is Dam, but Damn didn't quite hit me the same way as To Pimp a Butterfly.
Speaker B:To Pimp A Butterfly actually, for me was a kind of the perfect way to allow folks from now to understand things like the Freestyle Fellowship, for example.
Speaker A:It's a real journey as well, isn't it, that album?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, as a proper.
Speaker B:He went out on a limb.
Speaker B:He just.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:He let his ambition dictate where he wanted to go and then he went there.
Speaker B:You know, he used all his resources.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So just.
Speaker A:Just whilst we're still on introducing, then do you have a set process when you're coming up with album art or like, how much does it.
Speaker A:How much is it about the artist and conversations with the artist and how much is it about you listening to the music and.
Speaker A:And kind of get in a vision from that?
Speaker B:It's really depends, you know, I mean, it's all kinds of.
Speaker B:You know, there's.
Speaker B:There's people like Josh or Kamasi, for example, who are people that have a very, very strong vision of what they.
Speaker B:What they.
Speaker B:What should the COVID should be.
Speaker B:It can be incredibly specific.
Speaker B:And then there's this kind of what happens, you know, so you have this very specific idea, but then you show up on the day and the light isn't the way it's supposed to be, or there's a cat in the middle of the picture or the.
Speaker B:Whatever the it is.
Speaker B:And then you have to somehow respond to that.
Speaker B:So there's that.
Speaker B:And then there's people that are perfectly happy to just be like, bro, you know, I trust you.
Speaker B:Do your thing.
Speaker B:And then I'll go off and do my thing and come back with an idea.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And sometimes that works just as well.
Speaker B:Sometimes you know, whatever you.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And then everything in between, honestly, you know, there's.
Speaker B:There's situations where people provide a mood board.
Speaker B:There's situations where people.
Speaker B:I don't talk to them, like, they show up on the day.
Speaker B:There's situations where, you know, you just never know.
Speaker B:I mean, it's kind of, you know, you deal with the label or, you know, you only deal with the management and, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:And then there's situations where, like, yeah, you're night and day or in discussions about what the color of the shoelaces.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like, it can be that crazy.
Speaker B:Like, you can be that, you know, it can be that detailed or whatever.
Speaker A:But are there any particular favorite people that you.
Speaker A:That you like to return to working with?
Speaker B:Oh, man.
Speaker B:Anybody that I've worked with continuously, whether it's Damien Marley or DJ Shadow or Quantic or Kamasi or Thundercat or.
Speaker B:I don't know, I'm forgetting a whole shitload of people here now.
Speaker B:But anybody that I've worked with consistently is.
Speaker B:Is somebody that I like working with.
Speaker B:I mean, you can't do it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's obvious if you didn't.
Speaker B:If you don't have a.
Speaker B:A vibe with them, it's pretty obvious.
Speaker B:Fairly quick.
Speaker B:And it kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, to me, it doesn't matter how great the photos are at that point.
Speaker B:It's just kind of like we don't have a real exchange.
Speaker B:You know, it's kind of limited where this is going to go.
Speaker B:Like, I'm going to give you my best bang and then we're going to shake hands and you're going to give me the check and we'll go home, you know, But.
Speaker B:But there's people that I'm.
Speaker B:I've built sort of collaborative friendships with over the years.
Speaker B:You know, I'm saying that I, you know, blackalicious dilated people with Jurassic 5, you know, all those guys are people I would consider friends.
Speaker B:You know, they're people that I. I get a chance to work with.
Speaker B:And then there's people that are friends with that I don't get to work with as much as I would.
Speaker B:Like Erykah Badu, for example, somebody I.
Speaker A:Would love to work with more.
Speaker B:But, you know, she's Erykah Badu, you know, we're good friends and she'll call me from time to time, and I'll call her from time to time.
Speaker B:We'll talk about things.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I wish I could work more, but you know, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's very much about the kind of how much of a lane we can share together and how.
Speaker B:How productive a lane it could be, you know, but it's.
Speaker B:You know, folks that I work with a lot are generally folks that are.
Speaker B:You know, we have a very generative kind of friendship.
Speaker B:You know, it's like, oh, have you seen this?
Speaker B:Oh, have you seen this?
Speaker B:How about this?
Speaker B:Did you see?
Speaker B:And then it's like, oh, boom.
Speaker B:You know, that's great.
Speaker A:It all sounds, like really organic.
Speaker B:It's very organic.
Speaker B:Cinematic orchestra.
Speaker B:Another good organic one people have been working with for the past few years that are amazing.
Speaker B:And it's kind of.
Speaker B:You know, it's kind of a ball that passes back and forth, you know, and references and ideas and.
Speaker B:Wouldn't it be cool if.
Speaker B:And what do you think if we did this and do you think this would work or whatever?
Speaker B:You know, and a lot.
Speaker B:Sometimes it can be conversations that go on for years, and then everything comes down to a photo shoot that happens in, like, a week or, you know, I mean, there's all.
Speaker B:There's everything in between, so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You mentioned about Jurassic 5 there.
Speaker A:When I was doing my research.
Speaker A:I'd not realized that you'd done the quality control.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Cover.
Speaker A:What I really, really love about that is the instrumental version having the same cover but just without the guys there.
Speaker A:Was that, like, whose idea was that?
Speaker B:That was between me and Keith Tamashiro, who was the art director in that period.
Speaker B:And we had a very good friendship.
Speaker B:And if I. I would say that's the third leg here, is that there are people, you know, there's art directors that you work with over the years.
Speaker B:Like, for me, Brent Rollins, Keith Tamishiro, Steven Serato, Jeff Jank.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:People that I've worked with many times.
Speaker B:And I know what I do.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes it can be very intense.
Speaker B:Sometimes it can be very.
Speaker B:You know, we barely speak, and then it happens, and then we talk once the photos are made.
Speaker B:But, yeah, Keith was between.
Speaker B:A discussion between me and Keith, and the idea was that he put the.
Speaker B:You know, he had digitally.
Speaker B:The photograph was from.
Speaker B:For the COVID was from Bonnaroo.
Speaker B:They played at Bonnaroo in front of this just fucking enormous crowd, and I made these photos, and then Keith used it as a.
Speaker B:As a way to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To kind of, you know, sort of flush out the idea.
Speaker B:And then once it was done, they were like, okay, so we.
Speaker B:We're gonna put out the instrumentals.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:And we were thinking of what.
Speaker B:What the COVID should be.
Speaker B:And they were just like, yeah, everybody, you know, all the folks have gone home.
Speaker B:And there's the one sign that the guy had, you know, with the Jurassic 5 logo is in the foreground on the ground.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:And it's in la.
Speaker B:We've cheated it to be in la.
Speaker B:So it was in the.
Speaker B:We shot it in the cornfield in la.
Speaker B:And before it was the cornfield.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it was a cornfield east of downtown, and that's where we shot it.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that was.
Speaker B:That was a fun one.
Speaker B:I love those.
Speaker B:I love the kind of internal conversations that happens between.
Speaker B:You know, if you look at Nia by Blackalicious and the inside of it, there's this kind of collage with these kids playing records, and it's all kind of collaged together.
Speaker B:And then in the next record, Brent said, what if we made that?
Speaker B:And he said, well, where would it be?
Speaker B:And he was like, I don't know.
Speaker B:It needs to be somewhere kind of blank.
Speaker B:So we went to these dunes, we made the actual collage in reality, put it on the dunes, and then we set it on fire.
Speaker B:And then that ended up in being the inside of the next record.
Speaker B:And so there's this kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, there's this kind of ongoing conversation internally with the artwork, but that's very rare.
Speaker B:You have a chance to, you know, work with the same people over and over again.
Speaker A:And, yeah, I think that was.
Speaker A:That was empowering numbers you were talking about with the.
Speaker A:The Jurassic 5:1, wasn't it?
Speaker B:Yes, it was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it was quality.
Speaker A:It was quality control.
Speaker A:I was on about where they sat around the tree.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, the sit around the tree.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:That was mad.
Speaker B:In that case, that was kind of an outtake from the earlier.
Speaker B:So when we were shooting it, obviously I'll shoot it with them in it, but then I'll also shoot it without them in it before they all sit in.
Speaker B:I'll shoot it.
Speaker B:And so then when it came time for the instrumental, it was like, ah, easy, let's put the.
Speaker B:Let's just put the one without them in it as the instrumental.
Speaker B:We already had it.
Speaker B:It was no extra thing.
Speaker B:But power numbers.
Speaker B:My bad.
Speaker B:Power numbers was.
Speaker B:We went back and shot it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:After the fact.
Speaker B:Without the pico in it.
Speaker B:But we already had the gag.
Speaker B:I guess we already had the gag from Quality Control.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, my bad.
Speaker B:I got mixed up.
Speaker A:No, no problem.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:Where you're thinking about the sort of contrast between two pictures, because we'll come on to some questions about that in a bit.
Speaker A:How was the experience then, going into the sort of Stone's Throw camp and working with all those guys?
Speaker A:Because you've done quite a lot with them, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, it was great.
Speaker B:I mean, the specific moment, if you want to say it like that, that this all kind of started with them.
Speaker B:Like, obviously I knew Peanut Butter Wolf didn't know Egon, really didn't know Jeff Chenk, really.
Speaker B:But when quasimodo come on feet 12 inch came out, I was just like, stop the lights.
Speaker B:I'm gonna go work with these guys.
Speaker B:And I just called Wolf.
Speaker B:I remember he was at the Winter Music Conference and he was like, great, let's talk when I get back to la.
Speaker B:So they had just moved to la, and Eric Coleman and I, you know, went over there and visited him and hung out, started to properly meet Mad Lib and started to do work for them.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it was a.
Speaker B:It was very productive, very instructive kind of period.
Speaker B:I mean, it was.
Speaker B:You know, we did a lot of work for them.
Speaker B:Pretty much every record in that period for the next sort of five or seven years was stuff that we had done with them and.
Speaker B:And Eric still works with them as frequently now.
Speaker B:Me, not so much, but it's been super fun.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, you never really know.
Speaker B:I mean, it was.
Speaker B:It was just these, you know, this guy from the Bay Area and this guy from.
Speaker B:Another guy from Connecticut came to la and another dude from Nebraska was Jeff Jenkins, and who were trying to, you know, build a label and try to do something interesting and independent out here.
Speaker B:And, you know, to me, that it ticked kind of a lot of the boxes of musically, what was what I was interested in.
Speaker B:You know, Mad Lib is unequivocally a phenomenon.
Speaker B:An extraordinary.
Speaker B:An extraordinary person, but an extraordinary artist also.
Speaker B:Obviously, it took years for everybody else to figure that out, but it was pretty obvious from the beginning for us.
Speaker B:I mean, I had never come across somebody like him.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I think LA at that time, like, I felt we had sort of the elder producers, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Be it like people from Dre to Battle Cat to Quick to Slip to, you know, like all the.
Speaker B:The OGs, but the new generation, it wasn't clear yet, you know, that hadn't fully emerged yet.
Speaker B:And Otis, you know, really ended up being kind of instrumental figure in that, in terms of somebody that figured out a whole new way to do Things and I mean, obviously that, that, that wasn't clear yet.
Speaker B:I think Wolf saw that potentially, you know, I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, maybe, maybe we did, but at first I was just, I was excited about the idea that he was just so hungry for music and so fast and so goofy.
Speaker B:Like he was just goofy at the whole Quasimodo things and he was a genius.
Speaker B:I was just like, wow, this is awesome.
Speaker B:I need this.
Speaker B:And so anything I can do at that stage to help, I'm down, you know, I mean, and I feel the same way, you know, like if I had access to Mike, you know, his camp, I'd be offering myself the same way.
Speaker B:Like whatever I can do, I'm here.
Speaker B:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Like I, I believe what you're doing, I believe what you're saying.
Speaker B:So yeah, that's, that's what happens in that period.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And obviously, you know, to them it was cool because I was doing things for big labels and I had a certain cachet and I had worked with Fellowship and I was doing the Jurassic and the Blackalicious shit and you know, I was the guy for doing west coast shit at that time.
Speaker B:Dilated peoples and so I suppose your.
Speaker A:Co sign was quite good for them then.
Speaker B:No, I think the fact that I was offering to work with them on their terms was good because I was able to bring a level of professionalism to the table that out of price that they could afford, that otherwise they might.
Speaker B:My cosign meant very little.
Speaker B:My cosign very little.
Speaker B:I don't think in the end, I think, I mean I've certainly gotten, you know, I mean over the years people have, have, have brought it to my attention or whatever.
Speaker B:But I don't know, I think, yeah, I mean maybe I'm being too sort of self efface in here, but I, yeah, I don't think mine, I don't think my credit on the back of nothing sells records.
Speaker B:I think if I make a good photo for you, certainly that.
Speaker B:I mean, that's why I get paid.
Speaker B:I mean if I make a good photo for you, that helps.
Speaker B:But I don't think people are thinking like this is a great cover, oh, it's B plus.
Speaker B:It must be good music.
Speaker B:I don't think it really works that way.
Speaker B:I think he was like, this is a really good cover.
Speaker B:I bet the music is good, let's buy it.
Speaker B:It's that, you know, it's not like, oh, this is B plus.
Speaker B:I don't think that works that way.
Speaker A:That's it for part one of the B interview.
Speaker A:I'll be back in a couple of weeks with part two where we'll get into more detail around specific works and specific relationships with key members of the LA underground and beyond.
Speaker A:If you've enjoyed what you've heard, then be sure to go back through the back catalogue as there's plenty of Goldust to be had in the previous 67 episodes.
Speaker A:If you can like comment share subscribe, that'd be hugely appreciated.
Speaker A:Onto DJ is a Remote Ctrl production.
Speaker A:To find out more, go to remote-ctrl.co.uk.
