Regardless of beliefs in relationships or other types of topics, we are shaped by our upbringing and what we ultimately seek as truth in our lives. Finding love and acceptance can also be at stake, creating some of the best relationships with one, two, maybe three or more people. Today's guest takes on the important topic of non-monogamy and opening up relationships can lead to one potential way of creating self-fulfillment in our lives. Although not for everyone, this eye-opening conversation discusses the importance of not being closed-minded and creating opportunities for seeking counsel in the times when we need it the most, even if it is from multiple places.

Guest Bio

Jess is a non-monogamy relationship coach and licensed therapist. After opening her previously monogamous relationship of six years, Jess quickly learned just how little information there was out there from professionals on how to navigate non-monogamy. Jess is passionate about helping others to create healthy communication patterns with themselves, partners(s), and others so that they can design and embrace their relationship(S) dreams! Through her coaching services, she shares her knowledge and personal stories through the lens of a trained clinician, in hopes that others can reach relationship success and step into their authenticity!

Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100090313045966

@nonmonogamous_newbies on Instagram

Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nonmonogamousnewbies

Website: https://www.bothandcoaching.com

Visit Our Website: https://speaking-from-the-heart.captivate.fm/

Visit Our Business Website: https://www.yourspeakingvoice.biz

Support The Mission Of The Business! Donate Here: https://speaking-from-the-heart.captivate.fm/support

Intro/Outro By: Michael Dugan, Podcast Host: Voice4Chefs

Welcome to the podcast where relationships, confidence, and

determination, all converge into an amazing, heartfelt experience.

This is Speaking From The Heart.

Welcome back to episode number 46 of Speaking From the Heart.

Today we have Jess Lynn.

Now I'm going to warn everyone that this was really a fascinating interview,

and it's somebody that had reached out to me initially when I started

this podcast months ago, and I was really excited to be able to spend some

time talking to our guest that really has a unique take on relationships.

Jess is a non-monogamy relationship coach and also a licensed therapist.

After opening her previously monogamous relationship of six years, she learned

just how little information there is out there from professionals on how to

navigate the concept of non-monogamy.

She's passionate about helping others to create healthy communication patterns

with themselves, their partners, and others, so that they can design and

embrace their relationship dreams.

Through her coaching services, she shares knowledge and personal stories through

the lens of a trained clinician in hopes that others can reach relationship

success and step into their authenticity.

Being the owner of a coaching business myself, I never thought in a million

years that I would have a discussion with someone that not only is trained

in the field of therapy, but also talks about something that, particularly in the

United States, is often considered taboo.

For many things in our lives, we often think about the fact that maybe we

shouldn't do X, Y, and Z because they are off limits, but I think today's

guest brings about a perception about not only this concept, but many concepts

that we should really start to think about when it comes to being open,

transparent, but more importantly, being willing to become the best versions of

ourselves by opening up the dialogue so that others can also enhance their

own conversations with other people.

With that, let's go to the episode.

All right.

We're here with Jess Lynn.

Jess, thanks for sharing your heart with us today.

Thanks so much, Josh.

I really appreciate being here.

Yes, absolutely, and full disclosure for the audience, Jess was one

of the first people that reached out to me when I was starting this podcast, and I

was in a group of different podcasters and I was really excited that she responded to

me, so I'm really interested for today's conversation as I was chatting with you

before even the show, and Jess, just so you have a perspective, everybody knows

what you are and what you do, and that's going to lead into my first question.

What led you into what you're doing right now, because it is a very interesting

perspective that I know that many of my audience members are probably scratching

their heads even after the intro and asking themselves, "Wait, what does

she do?", so can you tell us a little bit about how you got to this point?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I definitely realize like it's a bit of a head scratcher.

I like to use the word unconventional because I feel like

that's like a nice way to say.

How did I get to be a non-monogamous relationship coach?

I am a licensed clinical social worker and therapist by background.

I got my master's degree back in 2017, same year that I got married later that

year to my husband, and you learn so many different things and trying to go

to school for social work, for these kind of things, and, I've always just like

had a fascination with people I think, and like what makes them tick and why

do we do what we do, and my undergrad was in sociology and gender studies,

so I've always tried to like figure out like why do humans do what they do?

Why do we have the beliefs we have?

How does our environment influence us?

All that kind of stuff, and so, you know, I was just trodding along in my

career and we hit the pandemic which was so fun for all of us and I was working

in hospital at the time, so I was an essential worker, but when I was home,

pretty much just like spending a lot of time on my phone because there's not a

lot to do, right, and I started seeing so much content on non monogamy in general,

whether someone would describe like, "Oh, my husband and I are swingers",

or, " This is my husband and our girlfriend", or all these kind of things,

and they just like would come up and I'm thinking like, " Is this the algorithm?

Is this like a newer, popular thing that's happening?

Am I just noticing it?

Why does it seem like there's all this stuff?", and of course,

at the time I was intellectually curious about people, right?

So I'm just like, "I'm just fascinated with this", right?

Apparently no.

I was going to say, as one friend of mine would put it, I just like to

investigate other people and see what their background is, quote unquote.

Exactly, and then sometimes we come to this fun part where we're like,

"Shit, I think that maybe that's me."

This is not just an intellectual curiosity.

Long story, but basically I just like looked back over my life and my

relationships before I'd met my husband and realized that I personally feel like

I have always loved differently, been able to have romantic feelings for more

than 1% at a time, these kind of things, and so that's a whole story there in

terms of, I brought it to my husband; gee wasn't that fun, and then started

living my own life this way, and in doing so for the past, like two and a

half, three years, realize there's really not much support and much information

out there on non monogamy of any kind.

I mean, don't get me wrong.

From where I sit, it looks like there's a lot, because I have like every book

but I definitely don't think that it's a super common thing to find support

around, whether that's, finding a therapist or a couples therapist that's

educated in it, or a coach like myself or just kind of like normal every day

literature and stuff and so that's kind of what led me to want to open my second

business as a relationship coach in this area, so there's your long answer.

Yeah.

No, I love that answer because for some people like myself that have

grown up with the concept of monogamy and being that that's what we are

supposed to do, that's what God said.

I know that many of my friends would probably say to me, "Well, yes,

that is how it is supposed to be."

Mm-hmm.

But there is always a different viewpoint and a different understanding

of where somebody gets to that point, and here at Speaking From The Heart,

I definitely have always said this to many of my guests, I even said this

to you before we started, is that I really respect where people come from

with understanding and getting to know the side of where that person might

have had that idea or that concept, so I appreciate you being so open

about it, because I think for many of us, we are afraid to be that open.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm kind of curious, what did your husband say to you

when you broke the news about this?

Because-

mm-hmm.

If I was on the other side, I would've been like, "Really now?

Do you want to do that?", so how did that all play out?

I will, and I have said this on every podcast I've ever been on,

my husband, both of my partners, but since we're talking about him, my

husband is a wonderful, wonderful person, a very open-minded person.

I brought this to him in the middle of a pandemic and was like, "Hey, I

don't know, I've just been seeing stuff about this and would you ever do this?

What do you think about this?", and of course, at first he was like," So what?"

It was the whole thing and I just kind of explained.

I was what people, I usually say like, I was a serial monogamist from like

14 or 15 up until me and my husband, I think I was single for one calendar

year was the longest period of time, and like my friends in college make

fun of me and everything for it, and to me, it had nothing to do with people

would say like, "Oh, you don't know how to be alone", or, "You're not

independent", or something like that.

It was never that for me.

It was always just like, I felt good in relationships and I connected people

with people so easily, and so for me it was kind of like, "Why not?", like

if I have this mutual connection with someone, why do I have to hold that off

to seem independent or what have you, and so I just kind of like reflected

all this to him and said, "You know, I know we've talked about how I would get

made fun of in high school for like, 'oh, you clearly didn't care about this

guy if you're dating someone else three days later, et cetera, et cetera'",

and yeah, I don't think he was shocked.

I think if he was completely shocked, that would mean he didn't know me very well,

but he was definitely surprised, and kind of had the attitude of like, "Okay, well

yes, I've heard of this generally, but, can I like take a sec?", and I was like,

"Oh my God, yes, like I'm not expecting you to say anything right now.", so yeah,

it was just very like, "Okay, interesting.

Can we just like take a beat and I'll read some stuff", and all that kind of jazz.

, I would say, pretty much the best possible reaction that someone could have so I do

always want to say that I recognize that I'm very privileged in that way and that

this could have gone entirely differently if he did not have that reaction.

That's so true too that, when you were saying about, "Well, my husband

better not be surprised that I was at least thinking about something like this."

Yeah.

Because I think for all of us, if we are not having a healthy

relationship because we're not communicating, obviously those things

will become a complete surprise.

Yeah.

And I'm curious now kind of shifting to the fact that

you said earlier about there's not much information out there.

I have to tend to agree with you because I only heard about this in

documentaries and usually they're in completely different states.

Yeah.

Like I know that in Utah, that's like a big thing.

And-

I knew you're going to say Utah.

Yes, and I know that that's probably the staple and probably the

cliche state to go to, but to be honest, I'm sure that there are many, many,

many other states in the United States, even across the world, since I've had

international guests on my show, that have shared those perspectives of, "Well, these

are how people interact with each other."

,so with that said, Jess, being that you are a therapist and you are a licensed

social worker, what would you say are the top three questions when somebody

is starting out and thinking about this and wanting to bring up this subject,

because for me, I'm just quaking in my boots and I'm not even married.

I'm not even engaged; not even have a girlfriend whatsoever, but it's quaking

in my boots because it's almost as if I'm creating this difficult conversation

with someone, so what are some of the questions you typically get, and

then, if you could, can you share some of the perspective that you provide?

One of the coaching programs that I do is specifically like exactly this.

I have had this realization about myself or I think maybe I might be

interested in this and I already have a partner, how the heck am I

supposed to bring this up, right?

People ask all kinds of things.

I think that one big question that I get asked a lot is, "How do I gauge my

partner's feelings or emotions around this without telling them?", and the answer is,

you can't really, I mean, we can do this, "Hey, I found this article about blah,

blah, blah blah" thing, but the reality is when you do that, there is a possibility

that that person's going to turn around and say, "Why are you showing this to me?

Is this because you want to do this?"

I mean, I think there's this like human desire to be able to predict, right,

like we do not do well with unknowns, and so we want to be like, " But Jess,

can you just tell me how can I kind of little bit like drip the subject in

without like coming full out with it?", and the answer is you really can't.

The best thing around that I would say is you know your partner way better than

I ever would, and so I advise people to think about what potentially it doesn't

have to be something crazy radical, but like, what maybe controversial things

have you talked about with your partner before and how have they responded, right?

Whether that's like, how did they respond to your differing opinion, or

someone else's differing opinion, or what happens when you see something

on TV that's a little different?

Do they come out and be like, "That's ridiculous!"?

Do they be like, "Huh, interesting."

That's like a decent gauge, and then also how do you, in your partnership,

deal with conflict, right, like how do you deal with hard conversations?

Those are like your best guesses, but again, we're guessing.

There's no like magic science to this, so that's a big one.

I think another big question that people ask me a lot is: "How do I bring

this up in a way that doesn't make my partner feel like they're not enough?

How am I going to say this and they're not going to look at me and be like,

'Oh, so I'm not good enough for you.

I'm not attractive enough.

I'm not financially independent', whatever the thing is?", right, and the

answer to that question is, you can't.

They're going, I feel like this is basically my job is just telling people

the things they already know, but like don't really want to acknowledge, right?

Like-

Yes.

You cannot make that person not feel that way, right?

Because we can't even control our own emotions.

That is the thing I say over and over again.

We like to think that we can control our emotions, but the reality is

we can only control our reactions.

If we could control our emotions, I would not have a job, right?

People would be like, I'm sad and I want to be happy, snap their

fingers and be happy, right?

That's not how life works, so you can't make them feel or not

feel any kind of way, but you can validate and provide support and

say outrightly to them, " Look.

I know that in me telling you this, there's a very good chance that some

part of you right now is feeling like you're not good enough, and I

just want you to know that that's not true, and that's not how I see this."

Are they going to believe you right off the bat?

Not necessarily, but you know, that's all that we can do, right?

And I think that is important to consider that sometimes it takes

multiple tries to be able to get through to someone and it isn't about trying

to say it in necessarily a different way, which can be one way to approach

it, but sometimes it's just about having that time, have that space-

Yeah.

Because I know for me, even as a coach, I might have to drop some

truth bombs on some of my clients-

Yep.

And they might not be happy or excited to hear what I have to say, but

they might have never been told that for many parts of their lives, or they

might need to have that perspective from somebody else, which I think what

is really important about a coach, so that they are able to process, to ask

questions, and to eventually come to terms with that, but this is where I

think this is the most important question that I have ever asked any guest, and I-

I'm excited.

Really want, I want to brace you for this because this is

just, maybe you've had this question already, but I feel like to me, this

is really pivotal to what I think sets up this whole conversation.

Mm-hmm.

Why would I want to be in a non-monogamous relationship as opposed

to a monogamous relationship, and I know that you're going to give me a

perspective, but I would appreciate that perspective because maybe some

people are still not convinced that having this conversation is worth it and

maybe they have been thinking about it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Why would anyone want to be in non-monogamous

relationship versus monogamous?

Well, there's about 452 reasons, but I'll give you like two.

I mean, the reality is I think and believe, and I tell people all the

time, this is not about one thing being better than another, right?

I'm not out here trying to convert people to non-monogamy, right?

I just believe there are a variety of relationship paths, and all of them should

be treated equally, as equally valid, and whichever one of those paths works

for you, you should please really go down that path and do it in a really healthy

way that makes you happy and fulfilled.

That is what is most important to me, and so for those who maybe have thought about

this, why would they want to go down that non-monogamy path, and of course, you

go down the non-monogamy path and then there's 50 split offs from that path in

terms of what this could look like, but why, so couple things that come to mind.

I think some people, again, it depends on what kind of non-monogamy

you're talking about, but some people really value things like novelty, new

experiences, a sense of adventure; all that kind of stuff, so that could be

like in a sexual context or that could be like just in a lifey context, right.

When we are with one person after a while, no matter what you do, that's that sense

of adventurousness will wax and wane.

That's not a problem.

That's not an issue, and if you are a person who really seeks for that, it

may seem of benefit to you to be able to have these connections with other people.

I think that there's a ton, a ton, a ton, of personal growth

possibility in non-monogamy.

Not to say there isn't in monogamy or a billion other ways,

but this is one of the ways.

In order to go down this path in a healthy manner, it requires a significant

amount of self-introspection of really thinking about: what's important to me?

What do I want and believe, not what am I supposed to want and believe?

Sometimes those things align.

Sometimes people really want children and society also tells them that they

should get married and have children.

That's great, and some people don't, but they feel this pressure that this is

what they're supposed to do at a certain age or a certain time in their life or

whatever, so I think there's like a huge personal growth aspect of: what is my

capacity as a human, and how can I best achieve that, and then I think, honestly,

there's just, and this sounds maybe a little simplistic or like semanticly,

and of course, there's a million other ways to achieve this, but one of the

things that, the way I look at it is, the world is a very complicated place.

Sometimes it's not a very nice place, and for me personally and for a lot

of my clients and a lot of people who are considering non-monogamy,

how could more love be the issue?

It's not.

In general, more love, more kindness, more connection; human

beings are not meant to be silos.

In fact, people quite literally can perish, figuratively or actually,

if they are living in a silo.

We all felt that in the pandemic, right, not being able to have these connections.

Just because we had a pandemic and people are wired for connection, doesn't mean

that everyone has to be non monogamous.

I hope that people can like, follow that thread a little bit, right?

Even if it's, "I would not do that.

That's not for me.", that's great and that's fine and I'm glad you know what

is for you because that's what you should do, but I think this connection,

hardwire thing, for me personally in my life, I have never felt more loved or

accepted for who I am than I do right now living my life the way that I live it.

Don't get me wrong, a ton of judgment, from a lot of people, but that

notwithstanding, there's this huge other part of my daily life in which

I have two people that really see me and accept me and love me for who I am.

Wow.

That's all I have to say to start out, because I've sat here now,

we're up to episode number 46, okay?

Mm-hmm.

I have to stay this.

There's been so many people before you, Jess, that I have interacted with that

I've had people that have said to me, "Yeah, I smoked weed growing up, and

essentially I met my partner and they really pulled me out of this situation."

I've had people that said, "Yeah, my husband pulled a gun on me because

they just didn't like who I was, and I really felt ashamed of myself."

I've had people that have talked about being cooped up and realizing that

there's a bigger world out there and they really want to travel, but hearing

you say this and talking it through with me, it makes a lot of sense to me

because there are people that are looking for that satisfaction of feeling loved

and understanding how to feel loved, and for many of us, we think that it's

about having a sexual relationship.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes we think it's about having that connection, that bond,

maybe opposites attract as the old adage goes, but I find it that when you were

talking about even what the benefit is for other people who are going through

it, I see your eyes light up because it, there's more than just what you can give.

It's what the other people that are in your life.

They are being able to receive so much from you.

With that said, you started to touch on getting more love, being more accepted,

because those were some of the things that you've gained as benefits, but were

there any other benefits or maybe there were benefits even now that you've been

exploring that has been enhanced by having these different types of relationships,

or maybe understanding different viewpoints, so I'm kind of spinning

the question back to you on a personal level, but has there been anything

specifically that you have gotten out of it other than the love and acceptance

that you've talked about already?

Oh yeah, for sure.

That's like the big ticket item, right?

Of course.

I have heard from both, so both of my partners are cisgender men, my husband,

and then my other partner who well, as we record this, not as it airs,

yesterday was our one year anniversary.

We just started, so-

Oh, happy anniversary.

Thank you, so they have also reflected the same thing

back to me and I just feel like I never have to pretend with you.

I never have to put on a front or make it seem like I'm someone that I'm not,

so that's like the big ticket thing, but oh my gosh, like the other positives.

If everything from like a little thing, so for example, this weekend was our

one year anniversary and my husband had just gotten back from, was my partner

and I was one year anniversary, my husband had just gotten back from a work

trip and he was like so stressed and like anxious and he loves the beach.

Loves it.

He would live on it if he could.

I think sand is like literally the worst thing ever invented.

I get that it's like tiny little animals and like shells and rocks

and, but I just can't stand it, so I go to the beach with my husband, of

course, because he loves the beach.

Do I like any of it?

No, absolutely not.

I could never go to the beach again and be perfectly satisfied, so this

weekend he gets back from this work trip and he's like losing his head.

Anxious, totally get it; been there, done that, and it's my one year anniversary

with my other partner, so I said to him, "Why don't you go to the beach?",

and he was like, "that is a magical idea.", and he kind of mentioned it

before; it wasn't all my idea, but so we just had this beautiful weekend

where I got to spend four days and three nights with my other partner.

We live like an hour and a half away, so time is hard sometimes, and he got

to spend four days and three nights at the beach in his happy place, doing

what he wants, eating what he wants, buying all of the Amazon movies that

he wants to watch that I don't have any interest in watching, and we sat

in binge watch reality love TV shows, which my husband hates, so like even

such a little thing as that where like we're able to give each other space to

do these things that we love, that the other person maybe doesn't love so much,

I think it's like such a huge thing.

I think we've both spent significantly more time with friends since doing

this because we have taken away some of this feeling of like we have to

rely just on each other like that.

We have to be each other's absolute everything all the time, and like when

we need support or we wanna have fun or we wanna go to a new restaurant or

whatever, that it has to be each other.

We have been able to let go of some of that because we realize that that is

not the case and that we can get our needs met by whoever we want and that's

what everyone does in reality, right?

Even monogamously, you have that friend who's like the funny friend,

right; you go to for a laugh.

You probably wouldn't go to them crying and expect them to hand you tissues.

You have another friend for that, right, so I think one of the big

things has been all three of us, and also the women that my husband

dates as well, but me specifically, just speaking for myself, like this

ability to like trust in our dynamic.

He and I, so, so much like we definitely trusted each other before, else I don't

think we could have ever done this, but I think the level of trust that we've gotten

to at this point is far and above what we ever had before and we were married

it's going to be six years married, nine together, and so this was like two to

three years ago, so we had been together a while and married a while already when

we opened up, and I just feel like I see my husband as this truly individual human

who has wants, needs and desires that I may or may not be able to fulfill, and

it's a beautiful thing for me to be able to watch him do those things, and me get

to do my things, and come back together, so yeah, I feel like I just said a lot

of things, but there's, there's so many things, like all of that, the support.

When I've had really I mean, I know you've shared on your podcast, I

personally have dealt with depression.

I have PTSD from abuse as a child, and there have been times where like I'm

really having a hard time, a depressive episode, whatever, and my husband's on

a work trip, and my partner will drive up and come in quite literally do the

dishes and vacuum and put in a load of laundry, where I'm just like on the

couch and a depressive state, like, I can't even make myself chicken nuggets.

Nevermind.

I think this network of support of like, "Oh, hey, I have to

go have some minor procedure.

I need someone to drive me home."

"Oh, you're not available.

Great."

How about this per, you know, and so for me that's been huge to be able

to have two people that play a very similar role in my life in that way.

It's interesting to hear you say this because I was even thinking of times,

even in the past year myself, where I've laid on the couch in a vegetation sort of

state of mind and thinking, "Yeah, I don't feel like going to work today", or, "Oh-

Yeah.

"Yeah.

I know that I have that dirty load of laundry that I have to wash, or

those dishes I have to put away-

Yep, or been in the dryer for five years and you're just not taking it out.

Yeah.

Yes, and I've had clothes that have laid on the bed waiting to be folded,

and it was just a matter of having that engagement with the world, or having that

understanding to work through whatever was on my mind because I wasn't really work

ready to work through that, and I hear what you're saying because I feel that for

many of us, we do have different things that hold us back from being able to say,

"Yeah, I want to be able to help others and I want to be able to be there for so

and so", whether that is a friend, family member, or significant others, which

is weird for me to say, but it is true.

Yeah.

And I think that for many of us, just trying to go through that is

a very difficult process, and Jess, we're almost at the end of time, but I

want to ask you this one last question that I have is that even with all these

things that you have been through and all these awesome engagement positive

things that you have said, there are still people that are probably to getting

towards the end of this and listening and thinking, "I don't know why she does this.

I can't believe Josh Smith had this person on his podcast show too."

Oh, I'm sure.

And, I will say that, yeah, this is a different perspective, but

yet I think that it's all about learning and understanding, so, for all those

that are thinking or disrespecting the fact that you do have this type

of lifestyle, or even people that you work with have this type of lifestyle,

is there something that you would say to them that would maybe help them to

understand this, once and for all, so that maybe there could be at least a

start of maybe moving towards the center?

Yeah.

Or maybe understanding a little bit more about your

unique perspective with this.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, there's a couple adages that go around, and I know that sometimes things

that like get said a lot can start to seem really cliche, but I really do believe

this, so the way I look at this is we are, societally, we allow for relationship

diversity and caring equally for more than one person in every other facet of

life, apart from romantic relationships.

When you're like in fourth grade and you're on the playground and someone's

like, "That's my best friend.", and you're like, "No, they're my best friend", right?

Generally speaking, healthy adult people do not do that anymore, right?

We don't say that our best friend can only be our best friend.

We also don't say that we can only have one best friend.

I was just talking to my partner about this the other day, like if someone said

to me, "Who's your best friend?", I have a couple and I would say all of their names.

Now, if someone said, "Who's your longest friend?", well, that's a different answer.

" What friend do you see the most frequently?"

That's a different answer, but no, there's no real adult who's

going to tell me, "Well, we don't allow that here in society.

You have to pick one best friend, and that's it, because if you have more than

one, that means that they're not the best.

You don't love them as much", right?

We also don't do this with children.

We have one child; no one expects that you have, or adopt, or birth, or whatever,

your family looks like, a second child, and you think, "Hmm, now I got to choose.

Which one is more important?

Which one do I love more", right?

I was just watching the Last Kingdom, and there's a very real scene in which there's

these two children and one of them is a legitimate quote unquote, and one is not,

and still, way back then, the father said, "I cannot choose between my children."

We don't expect people to do that, and in fact, if someone did, if someone's

like, "Well, that one is my favorite.

Don't tell the other one.", we would look down on that, and we don't expect

this in any other part of our life except for romantic and sexual relationships,

and I just don't know why, right?

My answer to why is that it serves a purpose.

It serves a purpose for people to be monogamous because it makes the

world a more predictable place.

We understand that two people are going to find each other.

They're going to live together.

They're going to buy a house or a condo or a townhouse.

They're maybe going to have kids.

They're going to get a dog, right?

All this stuff, and when people start to deviate from that, now we don't

know what to do with that, we're like, but you're not the line, and we just

kind of freak out about it, and again, I am not saying that to suggest that

everyone should be non monogamous either.

I just think that if we can look at these other places in our lives where

familial relationships and friendship relationships, and coworker and whatever

are also very important, why can we accept the diversity of relationship

in those areas and not in this area?

Again, people still should choose what works for them.

I think though, to the people who, and know kind of who you're speaking about.

I have people in my own family who do not get this.

I've had people say to my face, "I will not condone this behavior"; stuff

like that, and I'm like, geez, I'm not out here stealing from people,

like this is not, what do you mean behavior you're not condoning?

I think if we could even just get to that point where we can think a little

more broadly about, "Huh, you know, I guess that's true", like I do really

have these two very close friends and just because I made this new friend

after this one, that doesn't mean that like I had this pie of love or care

or time is a finite resource, yes, but all these other things aren't right.

We can cut a piece of the pie, give it to our other friend and still

have pie for this friend, right?

This is not how this works.

That's what I try to tell people when I'm trying to like, kind of relate it back

to something that they might understand, that feels more like realistic to them.

It almost feels like it's a double standard in a way when some people are

not willing to accept that, but yet if they want to try to have something else:

"Well, I can have it and you can't."

Yeah.

But that's like you said, almost like having a third grader tell

you something that happened at school today, but it was, had a couple of,

yeah, good facts, but a lot of them were exaggerated facts too, to kind

of make their point, so I understand completely what you're getting at.

Jess, these last few minutes I'm going to give you, I would love for you to pitch

yourself, being that you have a coaching business, and also I know that you are

supporting those that are going through these sort of relationships, because I

know that for many people it might be a very difficult discussion or even things

that they're trying to think about, if even how to approach it in their own mind.

I would like to give you the last few minutes to just share a little

bit about how they can get in contact with you if they're interested

in having that conversation.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you.

Right now, I offer two specific programs and then sort of like

whatever else people need, right?

I'm in this to help people in whatever way makes sense for them, so I do have,

as I mentioned before a four week program that I call the Conversation Compass,

because you got to have fancy names for things, and that is really four weeks

in which we're going to go step by step of why are you interested in bringing

this conversation up with your partner?

How are we going to do that?

How are we best going to set this up, et cetera, and then you're going

to have the conversation in between weeks three and four so that you

have support on the other side of it, regardless of what that looks like.

That's a very like contained, let's get you through this instead of sitting there

and agonizing in her head day after day after day, and reading, reading, reading.

Let's sit down, figure this out, have the conversation and go from there.

Then my, what I call my signature program is a 12 week long program.

It's called Non-Monogamous Newbies.

Obviously specifically I'm targeting people who are new-ish to this

and are kind of like, "Okay.

We had the conversation, it went fine, but now, like, what in the heck do we do?

How do we do this in a healthy way, because I don't want my

partner to not feel good enough.

I don't want my partner to feel X, Y, Z, right?

I pitched that to people, either are newish or you've been doing this for a

minute and you're realizing like, "Shoot, I wish we could hit the reset button

because we maybe didn't have some of these things in place that might have

made this a little bit more healthy, and so that's a whole from the beginning

of your why all the way through your relationship agreements and conflict

resolution and jealousy and all that kind of stuff, and so you can get in

contact with me through my website.

It is www.bothandcoaching.com, B O T H A N D.

You can send me a message through there and read more about my programs

and more about me, and then I also do have a Facebook group by the

same name, Non-Monogamous Newbies.

It's private so no one will see that you're in it, and I've got people in

there from very, like, newbie newbie, haven't had the conversation yet, all

the way through, people like myself who have been doing this for a while, so

it's a great place for people to find community in maybe they don't really

have that in other places of their life, so also welcome to check me out there.

I'd love to have you in the group and lots of free resources there as well.

I'll put all that in the episode notes as well for those that want to check

that out or want to engage with Jess, but I want to end by saying this, and

normally I don't say something like this, but I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Mm-hmm.

Here's the deal.

You bring a unique perspective to this whole entire conversation, Jess, so I

want to say, first off, thanks for sharing your heart with us today in that regard.

Secondly, it is a very tough world out there when it comes to even just having

this type of conversation and even having people to know where to turn to, and

you said it earlier, there isn't much out there when it comes to that level of

support, and I appreciate you being one of those trendsetters to put that information

out there as well, because let's face it, we shouldn't have to do it alone.

That's why we're in the world of coaching to begin with, and I think that's why

you see all kinds of different people saying, "I'm a wannabe coach", or, "I

can do this for you", but, to me, hearing you today just exemplifies the fact that

you are the most genuine person when it comes to opening that up, and that's why

you embody what this whole show is about, which is to bring the best versions of

ourselves out, and I think that you are continuing to do that with yourself,

the people that you work with, even your husband and your partner as well.

For all those reasons, Jess, thanks for being on Speaking From the

Heart today, and I really appreciate your insights and perspective.

It does mean a lot.

I want to thank Jess again for the insightful conversation that we had

about not only the things that we often misconstrue as maybe not preferencing

or providing the opportunities for others to really listen to each other,

but maybe in a way we're not really thinking about how we can have more

than one person in our lives that can make a substantial impact, whether

that is a romantic relationship or not.

Now I get it.

You are going to criticize me, right?

You're going to ask me, "Josh, why would you ever bring somebody into your

podcast talking about non-monogamy?

Aren't you a Christian?

Aren't you able to say that you should be with one person?

Shouldn't we just do it the way that we always have done it and

keep it the same way, because that's what X, Y, and Z has said?"

I'm not here to debate you.

As a matter of fact, I think I'm here to tell you that maybe you are right.

Maybe you shouldn't have listened to this whole entire episode, but maybe

the title, maybe the person that is talking about this subject matter, maybe

the expert opinion was something that maybe convinced you otherwise to say,

"Yes, I need to take a look at this.

I really want to know more, and maybe that curiosity got the best of you."

You felt victim to exactly what I want to talk about: being open-minded.

It is so easy nowadays to fall into the trap of thinking that we always have

it right, that we need to have it on the straight and narrow path, that we

should never forget about the concept of maybe becoming the best version of

ourselves by sticking ourselves into places that we should never be in in the

first place, but do you know who those people are that are telling you that?

It's probably those other voices in your head that you should have never

listened to in the first place; maybe that's why you're sitting on the couch,

maybe that's why you're still listening to this, because you're really intrigued

as to the viewpoint my guest has shared.

It's really the three prong approach in which Jess really provided: how

do I bring this up with someone?

How do I gauge the emotions about this?

What potential controversial things and the reaction will

I receive as a result of that?

Dealing with conflict in itself is a vastly big topic that

has circled professional and personal relationships for years.

Even for me, your podcast host, has had these difficulties; maybe not

in the relationship sense, but maybe in ways in which we should often

consider how we can create those opportunities where we least expect

them, even in the people that we meet.

I'm not here to judge Jess.

As a matter of fact, before we even started talking, we realized that this

was going to be something of a unique episode in itself, in which we're going

to cover territory that is often not covered, except in the great state of

Utah, which I ironically brought up, which then she laughed at me for good reason.

This is everywhere.

It's in our backyards.

It might not be as visible as it is in Utah, but it's certainly

visible in other places, all across the world; but that's it.

That's about acceptance, and we need to find the way in

which we can grasp acceptance.

Why do we do the things that we do essentially is the question that we have

to ask ourselves every single time that we're faced with a problem or a solution

to the problem that we need to make.

It may be for the benefit of others that are going through this to hear

concrete, unique examples, and I love the fact that Jess talked about those

sort of relationships, not just with her husband, but with her partner as well.

Those were common threads, but for her to take it even one step further in

the bold face of everything that could potentially be wrong in what you think

is your moral compass, she specifically says then that it's about understanding

how this world, although it's very complicated, we can still love each other.

That's a bold statement in which I have to take a step back even as a

Do I love this person for what they want to become?

Obviously, that's not what I'm going to say.

I'm not going to ask a client initially, "Do you want me to

love you so that you are better?"

What nonsense!

Why would I ever say such a thing?

Why would I ever tell somebody that?

That sounds ridiculous!

I might as well just have them walk out the door.

That trust is destroyed.

Ultimately what we're looking for is the love and acceptance from others so

that we can grow, we can be nurtured, we can be considered for others.

Being open and where we know where we're not able to do the certain things that we

need to do because of time or commitments or other things, often creates that trust

dynamic, and having that, especially as a coach, is really important so

that you set aside that time, but there also has to be boundaries, just like

a relationship has to have boundaries and you notice that in Jess's case,

it's really about understanding what that person is going through, so that

she can help people get to that first step, especially if they are thinking

about non-monogamy, and that's the deal.

That's what we're trying to be sold on, is that it isn't necessarily

the things that we're trying to figure out in our own lives, but why

those behaviors are considered to be sanctimonious in the first place.

Even the cultures that we are born and raised in can ultimately become some

of the highlights of what we ultimately become as the best versions of ourselves,

or maybe even just the worst version of ourselves, which I can ultimately tell

you growing up in Pennsylvania Dutch Country, how ignorant and stupid I was

to finally get onto a show in which then I'm able to convince you of many

different viewpoints, and that's why you continue to listen; but it isn't about

just listening to one side of the story.

It's about learning in all those different aspects of how we can grow

up, even in childhood, remove some of those barriers that we have often been

stuck in, to then apply them to new future opportunities that we know we

can create within ourselves, and that's really the key here is about learning

new behaviors, to learn new experiences, to be able to develop ourselves in

the most holistic way possible through this journey that we call life.

I have to commend Jess for being a clinical psychologist that she is, I'm

sure she completely understands that human condition really needs to be

able to work through a whole variety of different scenarios, being able to

understand and pivot for each person, especially going through that process.

What makes me and her different?

Simple.

She has not only the life experiences, but she has the formal training necessary

to cope with that with their client, and that is the big difference between what

a coach does and what a therapist does, and for that, she has medical science

to back her up with all the different things that could potentially happen.

That is why she is such a powerful guest in so many different ways,

and we should pay attention to what she's just shared; but I get it.

Bring something up that you have to then change your life course with and

ultimately figure out the ways in which to be able to become something that we never

thought possible is something that we often have to gauge and measure and figure

out what's the controversy behind it.

We can all learn ways in which we can handle conflict better.

It also means being tolerant of the different viewpoints that we all bring

to the table, and that's why I enjoyed so much knowing that there are people in this

world that are willing to express that.

That is the true version of speaking from the heart.

If any other guest comes on this show, be forewarned.

It is about having this opportunity to do just that, and I think that for

all of us, we can learn to do that and apply that in our own lives no matter

what circumstances might face us.

It's all about having that acceptance and love to do it.

It's not necessarily used in those terms, but it is used in the way in which we

are a building that ultimate opportunity.

We can be complicated.

We can make it so much more difficult than it needs to be, and we are the best

victims of that, but we can do this.

We can make it happen.

It's all about growing up and realizing that our behaviors might have served us at

one point, but changing those perspectives when we know that we need to evolve.

That is what's truly important here.

Having someone to do that with can be the ultimate gift in helping you not

only reach that next level, but also help you understand where to go next, and

you don't need to have all the answers.

All it takes is just knowing that you are able to do that, that you are willing to

explore that, and let the questions and the answers that come alongside of it

form as a result of all those different things that you learn about yourself.

That is the most important thing.

That is what makes us truly important and makes others truly important as

well, because it doesn't matter what you believe in, it's about the fact

that you can overcome anything, and that is something that we should all value

no matter where we're at, whether in a professional or personal sense, to create

not just those things that are the best versions of ourselves, but the best

versions of each other at the same time.

Thanks for listening to episode number 46 of Speaking From The

Heart, and I look forward to hearing from your heart, very soon.

Thanks for listening.

For more information about our podcast and future shows, search for Speaking From

The Heart to subscribe and be notified wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Visit us at www.yourspeakingvoice.biz for more information about potential

services that can help you create the best version of yourself.