Unlock the future of photography and your edge in the industry as Pat Miller sits down with innovative portrait artist Fred Agho for a lively, unfiltered look at the young guns shaking up the photo world—and what you need to steal from their playbook.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(08:16) – Younger photographers embrace AI and creative risk

(17:44) – Shooting for social vs shooting for print

(25:00) – What photographers must adopt: speed, AI, efficiency

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

Connect with Fred Agho ⬇

LinkedIn | Website | Instagram | Facebook

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. We all know times have changed. Think back to when you first picked up your camera and decided to become a professional photographer. Where did you turn to learn? What did you initially shoot? How did you edit? How did you share your story? How did you pick your niche? All of those things are different now. The younger generation of photographers are making really exciting stylistic choices, and they're breaking rules and running fast and hustling and doing these things that are really cool. Don't take my word for it. We're going to talk with Fred Agho today. Fred has a really unique perspective on this because he shared that he's 40. He's old enough to be a part of the older generation, and yet young enough to understand what the younger generation is doing as well. So what are they up to and what can the older generation learn from them? Fred has a lot to share, and we'll talk to him next. Fred, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. It's great to see you. If someone hasn't met you yet, tell us who you are and what you do.

Hey, guys. My name is Fred Agho, AKA Fujifred. I'm a professional commercial portrait photographer based out of Houston, Texas. I've been doing this right about 20 years. Really love portrait work. I love commercial work. I love shooting. I started when I was playing college football, you know, had a camera with me, and I'm going to all these interesting places and having fun with it. So really enjoy what I do. And I love photography.

I'm curious about playing college football and picking up a camera. What about grabbing the camera was good for you at that time? Was it a release? Was it curiosity? How did you get started?

So I had a friend named Winfrey. He was a photographer, a music producer. So he had a camera and I just saw like the novelty to it, you know, him being able to go around and create, you know, special moments. So I had always had a camera before then, but it was a fun pix Fujifilm, like the point and shoot. And I had never seen a DSLR up close before. I mean, my only other time seeing like a more refined point and shoot was I had a friend in high school who's on the yearbook and I saw that and I was like, oh, okay, cool. This is interesting. But once I saw Winfrey with it, I was like, okay, I really like this thing. And I did everything I could to get a camera.

That's cool. And since then, it's been kind of a love affair for you that you've continued to develop and obviously build a successful business with.

Yeah. So I was 21 when I got my first camera. So, yeah, I'm 40 now. So, yeah, 19 years. I'm about to be–my birthday's gonna be in April. So, yeah, we're almost on 20.

It's perfect that you share that you're 40 because it sets up the episode so well. You shared that you're kind of in this unique space, that you're old enough to understand the older generation of photographers, yet still young enough to hang out with some of the new ones. What is that like for you?

It's interesting. It's cool. You get to see what's going on on both ends, you know, see how it was done, and you get to see how it's going to, you know, become. I like to try to be the bridge in between the two guys because, you know, there's certain fundamentals that you should do, and that just makes everything easy. And then, you know, the younger ones are, like, experimenting and doing crazy stuff off the wall. And some of them are doing things that were probably done 40, 50 years ago, and they don't even know that they're doing it. Some of them do know that they're doing it. So it's really interesting just to kind of be like the bridge in between the two.

I can't wait to dig into those differences about how they see things and what the older generation can learn from them. But let's go back to when you were getting started. You were there with your DSLR. You were in love with the craft, but you needed to learn stuff. What was it like when you approached the older generation when you were young? What was that experience like? And were they helpful on your way coming up?

So, we'll take it all the way back. So I didn't have a DLSR yet. His name was Collins Metu. He shot weddings in here in Houston. I reached out to Collins. I was like, man, how are you getting these images? And he took the time and actually responded and told me what a DLSR was. And that's kind of how DLSRs got on my map. So, got my camera, started shooting, and, you know, it was fun. And then towards graduating, I kind of wanted to get more serious, so I started reaching out to, you know, older peers. And I was getting stonewalled. Not too many people stopped talking to me. And then, I'm not of the YouTube generation where you literally can start anything and do anything. I'm like, the generation right before that. So flash photography, all these things that I needed to learn, I had to be next to someone to learn them. So I didn't get that formal education. I didn't go to school for this. So it was kind of a bumpy road. I would say if I were starting now, I could zoom through everything because, I don't know, I have that hunger to learn. So I would zoom through everything. But when I was coming up, there just wasn't that many resources.

It's crazy to think what you can learn in an hour on YouTube. Search literally anything. And the answer is right there.

Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Yeah. So that's funny, because all the time, like, when young guys or other gentlemen who just started photography and they asked and I'm just like, I just send them a link. I don't explain it. I'm like, you need to, one, next time, go find the information yourself. I don't know. When you go to go find out the answer yourself, it resonates with you differently. It lands differently versus me teaching you. Now there's instances where it's good to go, just sit down in front of somebody, be taught, you know, and learn everything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that. I do think, me personally, now I am taking more classes, I am trying to learn more stuff and sitting in a classroom setting, so, you know, there's a place and a time, but, you know, just little quirks about, say, for instance, your camera, you should just get on YouTube and find those things out.

Everything you'd possibly want to know. As you were coming up, you said you were stonewalled at times. Does that change your perspective on helping the younger guys and gals that are coming up? Are you excited to help them?

So the difference now is when I was coming up, you email people, right? And it was very easy for them just not to respond. Now I'm getting a lot of advice, reaching out from DMs and things like that. And then I also get emails as well. But I really do make an effort to respond to everybody who reaches out to me. His name is Jeff Fitlow. He's the photographer at Rice University, I think the lead photographer there. And he was one of the first people that–I mean, I met him in person, but he was one of the first people that were outside of my circle that actually took time to respond and, you know, answer my questions. And I truly appreciate that. So I try to, like, I knew I know what Jeff did for me, and I try to do that for the guys behind me.

Let's dig into the younger generation, if you will. What are you seeing with younger photographers? I know you've got a lot to share, but in general, describe to us how the younger photographer is looking at the industry.

Okay, so these guys are like–I mean, and I'm just talking about the ones that, you know, kind of have the hustle and the bustle to them, you know, not the guys who are younger and just have a camera and they're, you know. But we're talking about the hustle and bustle guys, you know, and when I say hustle and bustle, even if they're making art, they're not just sitting back with their fingers crossed, you know, they're like, actively making things. You know, it's really crazy. Like, these guys are really, really creative. They're taking things so off the wall, you know, they have AI. They know how to edit things way better now. And I say cleaner and better. I mean, they can come up with these crazy concepts and edit them and get them out to the world. Then, you know, the guys who are doing, like, volume, they're just coming up with all kinds of crazy things. For instance, because if you go back, let's say 40 years, when it was filmed, you couldn't go to a concert. I mean, you could go to a concert. So let's break it down like this. So you go to a concert, right? Favorite artist, and you would stand in front of a booth, and they would take your photo, they would print the film. You would go to the concert, then you would come back, right? And get your photo from the print. Now these guys are literally just sitting outside the venue, taking your photos, taking videos of you, and just sending them straight to your phone. And you can have, you know, the product right there with you instantly. I didn't know that was happening until recently. They're just on top of things now. I'm not saying, you know, the people above me or my age group, we just didn't have it. We didn't know we didn't have that type of technology. So the kids are really embracing the technology and going forth with it.

Do you think they're exhausted by being consumers? It seems like people that are maybe a little bit younger than you or around your age, they came up through the rise of social media. They spent so much time watching what others were doing and trying to emulate it. But what it sounds like to me is that this younger generation that you're describing is just going out, taking pictures, breaking things, hustling, like doing the work, rather than sitting around and waiting for someone else to tell them what to do. Do you think that's a fair comparison?

Yeah. So a lot of the younger guys, you know, they're not necessarily trying to be up under anybody. They're not trying to, oh, I need a mentor. They're just like, all right, let me get out. I see a lot of me and a lot of them like they're getting out there and just doing stuff and getting it done and trying to figure it out. And along the way, if they have questions, I try my best to answer. That formal reaching out to, and you know, in some instances, it's going to work. So if you want to be a high-end fashion photographer, more than likely you're going to have to reach out to some photographers in New York or London and, you know, go work under them because that's a network thing, right? Yeah. So you have to go get in their pipeline of their network to get those situations. But you are seeing kids who are just making really good stuff and putting it out to the world and being found.

I have a feeling that this will quickly go over my head as not a photographer, but I want to hear from you as a photographer, how does their work look? How does it look different? What are some of the creative choices they're making that maybe an older generation didn't? Can you think of anything?

They're leaning into film. They're leaning into the film look, they're leaning into like concepts versus just portraiture. They're just doing stuff like they're trying different things. Your feed, unless you fine tune your feed to look a certain way, if you follow like 20 young guys, I mean, it's one guy's doing this, one guy's doing that. It's just so much more volume of people creating things that, yeah, you can get into these little bubbles of where everybody's doing the same thing, but there's just so many more bubbles now.

Do you think they're going after a personal brand or do you think that they're just going to keep on creating and creating interesting things to them? Because that's a little bit different. It seems as though the big titans of the industry right now are known as, I'm the headshot person, I'm the bridal person. Like, are they just going out and creating and letting the chips fall where they may. Or are they still trying to build personal brands?

No, you got guys who niche out and do things like that. Like, for instance, me, like, I prefer commercial portrait or work, but can I do other things? Yes. Now, what I've noticed with the younger guys, they kind of like, do what they do. You know, if they're going to do portraits, they'll portrait. There's a guy, there's a young man, Darren. He's at our studio, and he literally shoots like the same ten things. He's in his little–not little,s sorry, I don't wanna, you know, minimize what he's doing. He's in his bubble, and he just–that's what he does and he's comfortable there and he does it really good. Because I was seeing it and I was just like, this is really, really good. And as I continued to look, I understood that he got really good at that thing. And I've noticed that a lot of the younger generation, they're getting really good at the thing that they do.

And that's how they're getting known, being good at the thing that they're doing. Not necessarily going out and telling the world I'm the person that does the thing. I know that sounds nuanced, but it sounds like there's a difference there.

Yeah. Because the cool thing, you know, you get on the Internet and you do this thing and you let the world know that you do this thing, and your people will find you if you do the work. You know, it's not like a post one photo and, you know, every six months. No, like, if you're, hey, this is what I do. I want to create thing, and I want the world to know that I create this thing, you can really make a whole following and, you know, community around the thing that you want to create. The cool thing with the older generation is that a lot of us, I know the shot callers or the people because I just know them, you know, it wasn't, hey, they found me through the Internet, you know, it was, hey, that's Fred from Da Da Da. He played football and he went here. So I've had my time in the game, so.

Sure. One other question on style. You were talking about using film. You were talking about the speed at which they're running. Is there an aesthetic choice for being less polished, less perfect than some other folks have been kicking out content right now?

So, yeah, I've noticed that. You Know that, that glamour, high end, polished look, you're not having as many guys do that anymore. More people want to do more lifestyle, street type stuff right now. I've noticed that big. Or maybe I don't follow the polished guys. I mean the ones that I follow, and no, I don't see them being not I wanna say challenged, but I don't see too many people coming up doing and replicating what they do. So yeah, I see a shift away from that more fine-tuned look.

Well, let's talk about why there's a change. Every generation is different, of course, but why do you think this generation is shooting differently than the older generations?

It's just access to technology. I think that's, I mean, when I was coming up, my first camera, what was it? It was a Nikon D80 and I had, was it the 18 to 55? Then I got the 35. I mean it just, the cost to entry was so high. And then camera companies make a camera every two years now. So you can buy the, you know, the first rendition of a camera and they're on their fourth rendition, and you can go buy that for 300 bucks, 400 bucks, and get into the game fairly easy. Because if you think about it, I bought what, a Nikon D80, let's just say it was 1299, right? What's 1299? Like now that's what, I don't know, we can double it. We could say that's $2,400 and that thing held its value. I got, I'll say 800 bucks or 700 bucks for it when I finally got, you know, now you can go get a XT1, XT2 for $400, $500, you know, so we could say that's what the equivalent of buying a camera then a $200, I couldn't find a 200 camera at that level, you know, that could perform that well. So things are a lot cheaper. And then the access to information is just abundant. You can get information on Facebook, you can get it on YouTube, you can get on Skillshare, you can just, you really could go from A to Z really fast. So I think along that, you know, them doing that, some of some guys are like, let me get to A to Z as fast as I can and as best as I can. And then some guys are, you know, taking the time and figuring out every nuance of everything that they do. I'll say the first thing I mentioned is probably more common.

Do you think there's a difference because they're shooting for social rather than shooting for prints? Is that affecting some of their social media?

Oh, huge, huge. Oh, yeah. Thank you for calling it out. So I'm old enough to know–so there's another gentleman, his name is Jamaal Ellis. He's a photographer out of Houston, and he used to, like all the time, you're not giving them enough headroom. You're not giving them enough, you know, bottom frame. You got to think about if they print this. And he didn't have, like a formal education in it, but he just came up in the business when people were still printing pretty heavy, right? It was. The goal wasn't let me get these photos from you and get them onto social media. The goal was, let me get these photos from you. I'm going to print some and I'll put some on Facebook, MySpace, you know. Right? I'm telling. So that was the goal. So he would always, you know, you know, tap me on that. Then, you know, I'll do nightlife stuff and/or shoot natural light. And I had another friend, Joseph. How do you say–I can't enunciate his last name. He's gonna kill me. He was the one who kind of really exposed me to flash photography because I went out and did this engagement session. I was cranking the ISO to 3000, and it just didn't look good. And he was the one who kind of took the moment and told me. And so Joseph kind of came up the old school way under, you know, photographers and learned, you know, everything the proper way, why you do what. And, you know, I was just out here doing stuff. And I learned from him. You know, keep the ISO under 800, 400, 100 is ideal. Bring in lights. Because the thing is, if they print this and blow this up, you're going to see all those imperfections if you're not watching what's going on. So, yeah, I see it all the time. I just shot my first wedding in like the past five years. And the videographer was like, yeah, I'll take my ISO up to 200,000. And I was just like, no. But this is not going to end up on a big screen anywhere, so it doesn't really matter, you know. So, yeah. Not printing, 100% gives you so much latitude on just making an image. If you had to print, you had to be in these certain parameters. Yeah, made a difference.

I'm curious, and maybe there's not an answer for this, but I'm curious, with your expertise, are there more tried and true best practices that the older generation believes in that the younger generation is like, no, we don't do that. And that's old people do that. We do it this way. But the older generation, no, you need to do X, Y and Z. Does anything come to mind?

ISO. They don't care about it. Young people don't care. When they're creating, they're just, they'll push it. They'll go all the way. And I'm part of that group, too. I didn't care. I shoot the ISO as high as, now for the, like I'm aware of the limitations of my ISO for my camera. I will go find out, hey, what's the furthest I can push it? What's the native ISO for my camera? Things like that. And I try to stay inside that bubble because you never know, hey, somebody does want to print this. And I don't want someone to come back to me and say, hey, these photos look kind of grainy. Is there anything you can do? And yeah, you know, you have Lightroom and you can denoise and things like that. But if you can get it right out the camera, try your best. But yeah, that a lot of younger guys that they don't care about getting it right out the camera. I've seen some gentlemen, and there's a lot that do. So let's not make it an absolute, right? I'm just talking from my experience, but a lot of them don't care about getting it right out the camera. They don't mind fixing things in post because that's an option.

Because it's a big fat caveat on this episode. It's like we're talking in general terms here. We're not calling anyone out or trying to group everyone together. But for the sake of discussion, it's been fascinating so far. What about video and the impact of video? The idea that someone may be doing a video or taking photos all in the same session, all at the same time. The influence of video as a creator. Whereas some older generations literally never shoot video out of their high--end cameras. How does that affect their style choices?

Yeah, so it took me a while. They call them hybrid, you know, hybrid shooters. And for the sake of, you know, let me think about this. What's curious you would think there were more hybrid shooters, but I think the hybrid shooters are just like their own thing. Okay? And you can kind of become a hybrid shooter, and then you can either be a photographer, right? Or you can be a videographer, DP director. You understand? So I think what happened with the technology and the video aspect is you made a new bubble of, you know, you made a new category of type of photographer. And I've been asked the hybrid stuff I'm not very good at. I try my best. I do a little hybriding. Towards the end of me doing a lot of weddings, I was hybrid and then it. So I would shoot the photos and then take a video clip, right? Shoot some photos, take a video clip. And it was, the video wasn't, I wasn't on the clock for the video. It was just something I was giving to the client. So, you know, just an extra. But now there are people who actually, which is crazy to me, I don't think you can hybrid a full wedding, you know, and, you know, really get it done. But there are people who kind of. They look for, hey, I need someone who can do both, and I'm willing to pay those people. So, yeah. And then there's people who want video projects, and they don't want a hybrid person. They want somebody who knows how to set up sound, set up lights, work with a gaffer, work with a, you know, DP, have a production assistant, you know, just have the whole setup. And they don't want a hybrid person. They don't mind if you use a hybrid camera, but they want someone who knows how to create that type of thing. And then you have certain situations where you have people who just want to work with the photographer. But the birth of a hybrid photographer and that being a whole niche. Yeah, it's here, and it's not going anywhere.

We've spent the whole episode talking about the tendencies and the trends and what you're observing with the younger generation. Now let's help the older generation out. What can we learn from them? And I know that one of the big ones is adopting and implementing AI into our workflow. That's scary for some. Coach us up. Help us adopt AI like the younger generation is.

All right, so, boom. For instance, in my workflow, I recently did a commercial work for a large vehicle company. So before I would have two options, I would have to send the images off to a retoucher, and they would make all the edits because they're more proficient at Photoshop than I am. Or I would have to say up all night and try to do this by myself. AI is so good now that I literally did all this stuff by myself. I was probably spending 15 to 20 minutes per image. Are retouchers dead and gone? No, they're not. Because there's certain stuff that AI can't do. And you're still going to have to send those photos off and get them done all the time. Like, I can't switch backgrounds. For instance, there's a law firm I work with. I don't have the background that I shot all the original lawyers on. So I send it off to a retoucher. And he just matches it up for me, right? I shoot on the white background, he matches it up. I look like a hero. But removing things, polishing things up, cleaning things up, creating masks, all these things with AI, it's so much faster. In my studio we have a wall, right? And it's a 8 by–I don't think, is it an 8 x 8? It may be an 8 x 8. So even though with compression, when we're shooting the image, you still see where the wall ends, right? Before I have to go in there and match it up. And now with the AI, just circling, boop, boop, done, I'm out of there. See you later. No one knows that this wall is only 8 x 8. They think I'm in a big room. I've literally just backed up all the way from one end of my studio. And I think from one end to the other end of my studio is probably about 30ft. So I backed all the way out, and I had the whole top of. And AI just filled it in perfectly. So a lot of mundane editing that you would have done before, it's just sped up. It's cutting your time in half. I would tell people to embrace it big time. It's not going anywhere. It's here to stay. Look at it as a tool, as instead of competition. And, you know, I don't know, what if AI photographers do come? And I mean, the cool situation, for instance, somebody like me, let's say I'm 65, but I still want to get out there like a young man. I could put my brain into my own certain AI, right? And know for a fact that my AI is not being loaded up to the cloud and, you know, botched with a whole bunch of other things to steal my style or whatever. That's what a lot of people are worried about. There's ways around that. But let's say I wanted to load it into a 20-year-old photographer that could go on these crazy hikes and take all these crazy photos. I'm just speaking, you know, futuristic. I'm not saying it's true or not, but yeah, just you gotta look at it like it helps, it just helps. It speeds up everything. It allows you to be a solopreneur a lot easier.

I'm making a motion to have your boop be the official sound of AI. The boop, boop, boop. That was great. We need that on all my AI products. I want to be inside you talk about speed, and I think that's something that I would imagine that we could learn from as a part of the older generation. Just to go out and do stuff, take more risks, try more things. And realize for some of the older generation, it's a limitless number of images you can take. Is the speed and the actual quantity inspirational?

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, when I shoot with people 50 and older, I take the photos, and they're like, all right, cool. And I'm like, no, stay still. It's not filmed. I can take more, we can do more. And they'll get their proofs back. And it's like 2, 300 images. They're like, there's so many. I'm like, yeah, I mean it's digital. I can do this. We can really dial down exactly what we want. I mean, I tether and my clients are able to review everything as we're going, and we'll fine tune things there. But that's tethering even is cool. You know, think about it. When you're shooting film, you just shot it and that was it. But now I can shoot it. We can both look at it and say, all right, you do look kind of crazy. Let's adjust this, so that, you know, those are really cool nuances that technology has given us.

Sure. I believe in focus. As a small business owner, I'm the best in the world at doing this thing. But with all of the flexibility and inspiration that we're seeing, is it still a good idea to be known as only one thing, or is it okay to step outside of our box every once in a while?

No, that's just the nature of people. You want to when you have the bucks to spend, you don't want the jack of all trades. You want the guy who does that. For instance, we have a tree that needs to be cut down in our front yard because it's growing and messing up the concrete. Right? I didn't ask my yard guy. I called them tree cutting service. Because I want to know. I need to know that you can get this out of here and leave everything the way I want it to look. You know, that's just the nature of people. So, yes, niching down is not a bad thing. But what I've learned is when you niche down, you will get exhausted because it becomes a job, right? So stepping out the box to create things for yourself is where you kind of have to just do that, and that's where growth comes. So let's say you're a maternity photographer, right? And all you do is maternity, and you just say, one day, you know what? I do want to shoot a newborn. Let's try it. And you do it and you like it, or you do it and you bomb. And the competitive nature of you may say, all right, I got to get good at this. And you do it a couple more times, and you actually do get good at this. So now you're a maternity slash newborn photographer, and you set up your studio so that, you know, you can do the two, and that's where growth and, you know, comes from. Side note, any y'all who want to do maternity and newborn, those guys make so much money. I thought about it, but I was just like, ah, do I want to learn how to get good at something else?

Yeah, let's have this be the last word. We're talking about watching the younger generation come up and all the interesting things they're doing and how it might be different than the older generation. Give us a couple of practical ways that we can plug into what they're doing so we can watch their work in real time, so we can draw inspiration from what they're doing. How would we literally go about and keep track of what they're up to?

Social media. You can just get on there, and you can find a couple of guys that you like and just you can tell who's consistent. You know, what's crazy is the consistent guys will pop up in front of you and you can follow them from there and just see what they're doing and then, you know, and see if it lines up with what you do. Then X, and then you got threads, YouTube. So, you know, they're all there. The guys who are trying to get it done. The guys are really trying to create and put things out in the world. They're doing it. You just put your nose out there and see what's there, and. And because they're consistent. And that's the cool thing with the social media and because they're consistent, social media will keep pumping them to you. So yeah, there's a lot of young guys. I'm trying to think of names. There's Vuhlandes. There's David, I can't think of his last name. He's a fashion photographer in New York. Vuhlandes is a Detroit portrait and movie maker. God, I can't think of–Greg Noire, photographer. There's so many guys that are just putting out really good stuff, and it's there.

There you were sharing how excited you were with Beware My Fuji. Is that another person to follow?

Oh, yeah. Oh, man, thank you. Oh, so good, man. Like, anytime you post stuff, I sit there and I use my mind to like, how did he do this? Because when you do so, like this point, I can look at most stuff and like, if it's studio stuff, I know what happened. Like, I'm like, all right, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You know, I'm like, all right, bam, bam, bam. That's what they did. I understand it, okay? But with him, I'm just like, huh, wow. One, what possessed your mind to do? So my friend went out there, I'll say he was in California with David and he got to shoot with him and he says, guys literally out there just painting, just and that made total sense because before I used to. Because my mind sometimes with studio commercial work, it's so rigid that you almost have the photo in your head before you take the photo. So you go and you're like, all right, let me put all the parts. But he's going out there and he's like, that looks good. That looks good. All right, we're good. And that's seeing that is like, oh, wow. So, yeah. So good. So good.

Such a fun conversation. Fred, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

No problem.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer podcast. Cannot wait till next week's episode. Now, before you go, do me a favor, will you? What did Fred say that made you go, wow, I didn't think of it that way or that's really interesting. I'm going to try it. When you leave us a comment on the show, we know what we're doing, right? What we should do different for future episodes. So please leave a comment and let us know that you were here also. Of course, like, and subscribe because when that happens, I get a cookie, and I like cookies. Also, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's PPA.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.