And for me personally, that transformational change we need to make for animals because we have to be their voice. And that's really where my kind of heart lies in, in doing this role and being part of the World Animal Protection family.

We certainly want to make sure we come back to that as we discuss some of the areas of focus, and that's a perfect segue to talk a little bit about, as you've stepped into your new role, what are some of the key priorities that you see for World Animal Protection for this year? For the next few years? And how you're thinking about defining and measuring success?

And that's one of our goals. And the other goal is to really stop wild animals from being cruelly exploited for profit, which I know we're going to dive into today. And so, for me, those are, if you like, the big focuses. And what it means in the next few years on the food systems work, it's making sure that the animal welfare voice is right in the center of the just transition around our food system, right in the center of how, by removing animal cruelty, you can create a system that is more equitable, that is more humane, that is more sustainable, that is more in line with nature, environment, our climate -- all of those incredible things.

And I think for us, we see an opportunity in the next year or so to really, really push on the tourism front and really get some of the last big beasts of the Northern Hemisphere tourism and travel companies to move in a way that we know consumers are demanding and consumers are starting to vote with their feet.

So for us as an organization, it's really trying to cut through and target in on some of those areas we feel like we can move in the next couple of years. And to your point about success indicators, you know, I'd like to see in the next year or so, the likes of TUI or GetYourGuide, or Klook, tourist companies, travel companies that that have not yet moved to animal welfare friendly policies.

And then as I said on the food system side, really making sure that animal welfare is in that just transition of the food system so that we can treat animals in a much, much better way and actually have a lot less farmed animals on this planet being born into a life of kind of cruelty and suffering.

So for our listeners who are new to this topic, let's start out with what is wildlife farming? And why is it particularly problematic for animals, people, and the planet?

And as you said, World Animal Protection has done a number of reports and research into this. And most recently we did a research project into the global scale of wildlife farming. The report of it is Bred for Profit. And we estimate that around 5. 5 billion billion wild animals are bred and reared on wildlife farms for commercial exploitation.

So that's 5. 5 billion. Some of these wildlife farms hold more than 50, 000 animals. However, the industry data is scarce, and governments weren't actually able to provide that requested data, and I suppose what was for us was expected, but an astonishing lack of transparency, and by a result, an inadequate monitoring across the industry, which is deeply unsettling to us.

And even in well-managed facilities, higher volumes of animals, the focus was on profits, not on wild animal animal welfare. And I think there's three key areas to this that that are problematic. And they are public health, they're the argument around wildlife conservation, and about biodiversity loss.

The other part of the argument that we are often talked about in terms of public information is businesses try and make out that actually they're part of a wildlife conservation effort, and who would want to criticize that?

And it also gives opportunity for people to use that kind of like legal route to pass illegal products and launder those kind of products through those legal trade routes. So that's why it's such an important thing to highlight.

And then finally, I mentioned biodiversity loss. There's countless species that are being decimated by the wildlife trade, elephants, rhinos, pangolins, and when you overexploit any animal or plant, it disrupts the balance of our ecosystem.

But actually it's all underlying the same problem, that wild animals being treated as kind of items of profit. And so, it's that cycle that we're needing to undermine and break.

If I take one example, the tourism industry is exploiting wild animals on a global scale. Lions, dolphins, elephants are all used in kind of fee paying tourism industries. And I think for me, the thing that I find saddest is that people who go and see a dolphin show, or they might go and wash an elephant, they don't realize the contribution they're making to a kind of lifetime of suffering.

And, in the case of dolphins, they've either been bred in captivity, as an example, or they've been caught. And you only need to go and spend a couple of minutes on social media that you can see how those dolphins are caught and separated from their pods.

But I think if you can witness and you can also make different choices, I think people would make different choices if they knew that. And this is sent to me by a family member of, "this is really sad, this little baby elephant's on its own", but actually they didn't really realize what they were witnessing.

And it was only through watching it, it's heartbreaking. And I think that's where those industries are playing into these things where they're using animals in a way that is not -- it's just not right. I don't know a different way to say it, to be honest, it's just not right.

There are things that we experience, whether as children or adults, and we may even be someone that gravitates toward animals, and that's why we wanted to see an animal while on vacation, or engage in a particular activity, and we don't know what has gone into that animal's suffering, and we can't change the past, right? But we can't let the past continue to remain part of our decision-making if we can take a look at the problems and if we can change course.

I really appreciate you sharing that and I'm so glad that you found your calling early in life. And for those of us that have not always made the best decisions for animals, there is always an opportunity to do better. And this is an opportunity for us to talk about some spaces -- I think there's very little transparency in some cases. There's, there's little understanding in terms of the animals in supply chains, in the production environments that you're talking about. But I hope that our listeners, no matter what their past experiences are, can look at this as an opportunity to make different choices moving forward.

I think there's always that chance for it to be a lesson. And I think actually you talking about it, and other people talking about their experiences, not as a way of blaming ourselves, but as a way of what we know now, and I think that's where we need to be. We need to be much more positive about everyone is moving on their own journey, and what you know now can make a difference in the future.

If I can take TUI as an example, as a travel company, the way in which they sell their dolphin experiences at the moment, it's like, "once in a lifetime ticket off your bucket list. You'll never forget it." They sell you this idea of fun and entertainment and you're on holiday with your family and wouldn't the kids love it?

I think one key part of what you're describing is the planning aspect. So being able to make decisions in advance to do that digging under the hood in advance, as opposed to in the moment, helps to reduce some of those pressures as well. And we can talk more about strategies, but absolutely -- the focusing on the natural environment is a good, helpful way to filter through those opportunities. Absolutely.

So when we think about these spaces, was there anything you wanted to address before we move on? We talked about the pet trade and tourism a bit. I think your report also digs into traditional Asian medicine and fashion.

And now we move on to no feather, no skins. We keep iterating until we have an animal product-free fashion week, and not just for London, but for all the other kind of fashion weeks. So, all of these, especially things like the fashion industry, if you see it in, on one of the runways, the likelihood is it kind of filters down into commercial stops on your High Street.

We often say that inside the organization, 'being the voice', but it's really important that we give those voice. Part of our work is around that public mobilization piece, and I think that's where I think your listeners can be so important and so vital for us. We have engaged millions of individuals around the world -- governments, organizations, corporations -- all to champion animal welfare.

And we really Look at how we leverage our partnerships and our support to target governments, in particular governments, because particularly in this area of wildlife farming, which is so poorly regulated, there's so much pressure on the consumer, as we've just discussed, to make the right choices.

But actually, you could take it a step backwards and, by advocating for better legislation, and you get governments to introduce the regulations that the private sector follows, and you could actually see a phase out of wildlife farming. And in phasing that out, equally important to support the kind of alternative livelihoods for those communities that do wildlife farm.

Yeah, I can give you an example. We're working with the Rajasthani government at the moment on a place called Amer Fort, which is where there's around 80 elephants that are kept in quite horrific conditions and that they are -- tourists go and ride these elephants.

We're an animal welfare charity. We are not an alternative livelihoods charity, but we are there to support people as they transition away from these industries, but we support them in terms of the pressure that we put on governments to find the alternatives. And there are always alternatives, but it's so easy sometimes to just to try and find the ultimate solution that wraps it all up today.

Whereas actually, when you're looking at systemic change, it takes a long time, but it's trying to stop more elephants from entering this arena and having a plan for them to exit.

Makes perfect sense. Thank you. Before we continue, I just want to make sure if there are any other success efforts that you wanted to highlight.

These are incredibly inspiring examples, including tourism and fashion. And there were a number of different, incredibly inspiring examples in the reports in terms of the ongoing work and in terms of partnering with governments at various levels. Are there any other examples that you hold dear when you look at the successes to date?

In May this year, we handed in a petition with over 172, 000 signatures from 26 countries demanding the end to the exploitation of elephants in Thailand. We need that breeding ban in place because you have got 2, 800 captive elephants in Thailand.

It's for the Thai government to make that choice. I would add that they have an alternative bill from the industry that surprisingly doesn't include a breeding ban. So we continue to pressure them on this, but it's a work in progress. But I think it speaks to what World Animal Protection, alongside its kind of NGO partners, can do in terms of bringing the voice of people from 26 countries to the Thai Prime Minister and the Thai government.

And then another kind of success that we're, again, in partnership, we've been working with an organization called Blood Lions in South Africa. And they have been absolutely tireless campaigners in this space with us around ending the commercial captive lion industry. This is a term that listeners may or may not have heard, but canned lions is, is what we're talking about.

And then, what else do I like to tell you? We can talk about the kind of alternatives we're trying to give to the tourism industry as well. So, it's all very good, us saying, "don't go and see dolphins in tanks", but people still would like to see marine life and mammals.

There's currently 10 wildlife heritage centers around the world. You can find out more. We'll drop it in the notes as to where these are. The criteria for a sort of designated area is really, really robust and it's transparent, so people can see and be reassured that the destinations are meeting the kind of highest standards of animal welfare.

And this program also works with local communities to make sure that they are benefiting from this, but it's really about creating responsible tourism. And really shifting the industry away from that idea of harmful captivity and towards a more kind of respectful coexistence with wildlife, nature, and the communities that surround them.

I know we've got some examples of successful collaborations to date. Would just love to hear your thoughts on how do we take things further, including additional types of organizations and collaborations?

You mentioned technology, and I think, for us, we watch that technological advanced space very closely, always looking and trying to promote the kind of non-animal alternatives. As I mentioned, our work in traditional medicine has all been about working with practitioners in China to understand the issues and to then work with others to offer alternatives, whether that's synthetically- derived or more of a kind of herbal, engineered substitute.

I think in terms of the illegal kind of activity associated with wildlife farms, there's a lot of surveillance and enforcement techniques that we watch and use, particularly around species identification. That's been very helpful. We've also used methods to distinguish between wild and captive lions, testing to try and catch up with a kind of lion bone trade that there is. And then, over the last couple of decades, World Animal Protection, along with other NGOs, has been integral in the microchipping of bears in Vietnam. Something that is very prevalent in other countries around domesticated animals, but it's actually very useful in that trade to make sure that there aren't new entries into the bear bile farming world.

And then we also collaborate with celebrities, where possible, as well to try and dispel some of the Instagram unreality that is showing people that they want to do, but actually try and get people and influencers to speak about the experience that they're actually having. So, it's a kind of melting pot of a number of areas for us.

And then I think we're not quite there yet in the animal cruelty, animal welfare being in the center of government's thinking. I think it's still seen very much as a kind of afterthought, and that connection of the dots of the impact on human health, and the impact on the environment, and the impact on the climate, and the impact on nature, and the impact-- it's getting that sense that that's where animals are. And I'll use a kind of example, is that in the UK at the moment, there is a big drive to try and clean up our waterways and our river ways, and in part, because the water companies have not been looking after sewage in the way that they should.

So they're not in competition. They are aligned.

We might be talking about antimicrobial resistance on human health, but actually what we're really talking about at the end of the day is animals. And it's just getting comfortable with being in those spaces and knowing who you represent, knowing the constituent that you represent. But that you might be talking about different issues around climate change or around habitat loss. But all of it, the center of it, is really about making a difference for animals across the globe.

The same goes for kind of any wild animal being kept as a pet. If it hasn't been domesticated over the last 2, 000 years, i. e. a cat or a dog, it probably shouldn't be in your home.

So, really looking at your decision as a fueler of a bigger issue. So you may be fascinated by reptiles, amphibians, but know that that is driving them either being taken from the wild or being intensely bred to be provided to you through the likes of pets at home or similar kind of places.

And so really urge, if you can't afford or you can't see animals in the wild, go on your favorite streaming service, watch some incredible documentary instead, but just don't go and engage in the practices that involve fueling that industry.

And, as much as people want to touch and be close to animals, knowing that wild animals are meant to be wild and further away from us for a whole range of issues. Just really taking that time to consider those experiences. And if you find yourself in that experience, you somehow have ended up at the dolphin show or at the elephant washing venue, just walk away.

From us at World Animal Protection, we would prefer all animals to be seen in the wild, not in any captive circumstances, but there are sanctuaries out there that are doing great work in that they are offering a life for particularly elephants and the like, that you wouldn't get, they wouldn't get that life without it.

So it's just really just looking at who's owning it and the kind of the other partners they've got in that space. And actually, in the case of some of our elephant sanctuaries that we support in Thailand, they'll have consumer choice awards from TripAdvisor or they'll have our logo on them.

You can look for those and have a level of reassurement there.

I post important reports from not just ourselves, but from other organizations, so you can see the latest in animal welfare issues as seen from me.

And I hope we can set up another time to talk about the issues that you mentioned from the beginning, because I know there's so much more to explore. Really appreciate you taking the time today.