Welcome to Dreaming in Color, a show hosted by Christian Celeste Tate and Anum Qadir from  The Bridgespan Group, that provides a space for social change leaders of color to reflect on how their life experiences, personal and professional, have prepared them to lead and drive the impact we all seek. 

In this episode, Christian interviews Robert Rooks, CEO of REFORM Alliance, founded after the unjust re-imprisonment of recording artist Meek Mill. Robert is one of the nation’s premier criminal justice reformers with over two decades of experience as a grassroots organizer, strategist, and movement leader. 

Under Robert’s leadership, REFORM has won major legislative reforms to transform probation and parole systems in California, Georgia, and Mississippi and has lifted up the experiences of people on supervision to educate the public and build support for broader change. 

Robert co-founded the Alliance for Safety and Justice before joining REFORM, expanding it to eight states with high incarceration rates and leading advocacy efforts for criminal justice reform nationwide, resulting in legislative wins like the Neighborhood Safety Act in Illinois. He directed successful campaigns such as Yes on Proposition 47 and Yes on Proposition 57 in California, which reduced incarceration rates and increased parole eligibility. Additionally, Robert played a key role in fundraising for Florida's Amendment 4, restoring voting rights for over one million individuals with past convictions.

Join this conversation as Robert paints a picture of what our society can look like if we “educate not incarcerate.” 

This is Dreaming in Color. 

Jump straight into: 

(0:32) Introduction of Robert Rooks: CEO of REFORM Alliance.

(2:22) Robert shares how his upbringing inspired his passion for prison reform.

(7:26) Robert discusses how reform legislation in the last 20 years has made strides toward a better justice system and dreams about what the next 20 years will bring. 

(9:03) We visit the story of Meek Mill’s unjust incarceration and how that spurred the beginnings of REFORM Alliance.

(13:53) Robert illustrates a picture of society with true reform. 

(20:38) Abolition vs. reform

(22:10) We need everybody and how investing in community organizers is the pathway to change. 

Episode Resources

• Connect with Robert Rooks on LinkedIn and Instagram
• Learn more about the REFORM Alliance through their website
• Follow the REFORM Alliance on X, LinkedIn and Instragram
• Read about Robert’s work in Bridgespan’s report on philanthropy and the criminal legal system 
• Learn more about Alliance for Safety and Justice through their website

Read Robert’s interview with Katie Couric about how we can fix prison pipelines.

Welcome to Dreaming in Color, a space for social change leaders of color to reflect on how their life experiences, personal and professional, have prepared them to lead and drive the impact we all seek. I'm Christian Celeste Tate, and I invite you to join me in these candid kitchen table conversations, where together we celebrate these leaders' ingenuity, are inspired by their wisdom, and learn how collectively we can all strive to do and be better. This is Dreaming in color. Today I'm sitting down with Robert Rooks, the CEO of REFORM Alliance, and one of the nation's premier leaders in criminal justice Reform. With more than two decades of experience as an organizer, a strategist, and a movement builder, Robert has been instrumental in securing groundbreaking wins for criminal justice Reform across the country.

Launched in 2019 by a group of world-class philanthropists, including Jay-Z, Robert Kraft, and Michael Rubin, to name a few, Reform was created after the unjust imprisonment of recording artist, Meek Mill, who received a shocking two to four year sentence for popping a wheelie on his dirt fight. Meek's stories shocked the world shining a light on the US criminal legal system and the millions of Americans who are trapped in it. Under Robert's leadership, Reform has been a trailblazer for championing laws that strengthen families and communities and promote public safety for all. To date, Reform has passed over 18 bills in 11 states, creating pathways for nearly 800,000 people to exit the US criminal legal system. Robert has dedicated his life to advocating for crime survivors and those impacted by the legal system, and I am so honored to be speaking with him today. Thank you so much for joining us here, Robert. It's great to see you again.

Christian, good to see you as well.

We did some work together in, I think it was 2021. It's been a little minute, but I've been following you and Reform every chance I get, so it's great to see you here.

Good to be reconnected with you as well in this new platform. I'm excited about it.

I, first, want to just ask you a couple of questions about your personal background and how it informs the work you do, because one thing that really stood out to me in the work that we did together was how apparent it is the extent to which you lead with empathy, and so I'm curious to hear what it is about your upbringing or your lived experience that really powers your empathy, because it's more than infectious.

I grew up in a large family. I'm the youngest of nine. I have five sisters and three brothers. My mother was a nurse, and father, a minister, and we would often talk about issues of humanity and justice at our kitchen table. It was a regular conversation for us. Another important piece of that was I was often challenged by my parents to find purpose in my life on what I was going to contribute to in this society, and so I was always driven from a young age, educated from a young age. I needed to give back and participate in a process of community, process of healing, process of justice. That led into my experience in southern Dallas in the eighties and nineties. The eighties and nineties were not a great time for us in Oak Cliff part of Dallas.

It was a time where we went from a working class community to one dealing with poverty, addiction, and it impacted all of us. It impacted my friends who lost their homes and had to move. It impacted my own home, when my family member became addicted and we, as a family, had to deal with that. Then, it impacted the community, because what we saw after the influx of the crack cocaine epidemic in the mid-eighties was an increase in spike of violence, and I lost quite a bit of friends during that time, Christian. I think back at every friend that I had when I was 10 years old, they're not with us today, and it was at my closest friend, my best friend's funeral, that I just said to myself, something had to be done. I needed to do something. I couldn't just keep moving on as if this was normal, so I made a commitment to myself and to the next generation that I'll do everything I can to make sure that Black men, that Black boys would be safer than where we were, and so that's what I've been doing ever since.

The path that you described, from identifying the importance of purpose with your family members, to finding the right way for you to live into that purpose, it's easy to take that path for granted, right? But that's not an easy journey to make. But how did you find your lane? How did you identify that this was the right way for you to contribute your assets?

I really appreciate the question, because even though I made that commitment, I didn't know how I was going to do it, right? I was all of 20 years old, and I just knew I wanted something to change. So I involved myself in study. I went to Prairie View A&M University, HBCU outside of Houston. That's where I started understanding kind of the role that government and society plays in the conditions that people experience on the day to day. I started to understand that at a kind of a very deep level, because when I think back at my time as a teenager, the predominant role that government played was to arrest folks, right? They were coming in and offer incarceration, but no one was offering healing, hope, and opportunity. And so my study at Prairie View A&M University is where it became clear to me that, if I was going to really weigh in to this space, that I needed to develop a strategy for how we change government and how we get in control of the decisions that govern our lives.

That was the only way to engage in this work, and so I then went to University of Connecticut School of Social Work, where I started to learn more about social policy and how a policy was written, shaped, and what went into changing laws and, at a very young age, coming out of social work school, I was asked to head up an organization, a drug law reform organization. It's called Bedouin Foundation in Hartford, Connecticut, and there we ran campaigns focused on addressing the root causes of addiction and incarceration. In 2005, we were the first state in the country to equalize sentencing between crack and powder cocaine. We ran it purely on the racial justice platform. It was the best learning experience for me, because I was able to access all levels of government because the state was so small, and we were successful, and that campaign really opened up opportunities for me to do that work in other parts of the country.

2005 is remarkably late for that change to take place for the first state to make that change. That's kind of incredible to sit with for a second.

Yeah, it was a long time ago, number one. Number two, federal government still hasn't gotten it right. That's why we have the equal act to try and address that issue, and other states have. Other states followed suit and actually passed even better or stronger laws than we did in oh five, and if I think about the work that has happened since then for the last 20 years, and the growth of the criminal justice reform, field, or advocacy field, social justice space, the new concepts and ideas, campaigns that's been won at the local level and at the state level, I'm proud of the work that's been done over the last 20 years.

We now see amazing activists all across the country that have emerged, lawyers that's become professors and Supreme Court justices and judges has all came from this movement where a group of people in this country said, "No more. We're not going to continue to allow law enforcement to control the bodies of Black and brown folk. We're not going to continue to see our young kids die at the hand of police. We're going to do something about violence in our community," and there's a growing network of violence interrupters that are hitting the streets each and every day, taking guns out of hands of young people, teaching negotiation skills, and how to deliver better safety. All of that has happened in the last 20 or so years, so I'm super proud to have been part of it and have the vantage point that I have to see this movement grow, and the next 20 is going to even be better.

We need it to be. I want to talk more about the movement as a whole, but first, why don't we take a step back. For our listeners who aren't aware, can you say a little bit about how Reform came to be and what you see its place in the broader movement being?

Absolutely. So REFORM Alliance, were five years old as an organization. We were founded after the unjust incarceration of recording artist rapper, Meek Mill. Meek was on probation his entire adult life, and he had a judge that had an inappropriate obsession with him. She tried to control him. She tried to tell him what kind of music to make and what concerts to perform. She wanted to control every part of his life including how he made his money. This happened all of his twenties. And so, Meek was shooting a music video in New York, and in Meek's music, he oftentimes ride motorcycles, motorbikes. He's a big biker, and he popped a wheelie on a motorbike, and the judge found out about it. The judge called Meek into court, and gave him a two to four year prison sentence for probation violation. It's unbelievable.

This judge was known to do this in Philadelphia, to not just Meek, to many of the people that she was involved with, that she had the ability to control. The difference, though, in this situation, this dynamic, was that Meek was an international superstar by this time when she first was engaging with him, he was just a street rapper in her eyes, but this latest time he had a song, actually, an album called Dreams and Nightmares, that became extremely popular all across the globe. And so, Meek had a sense that the judge was going to sentence him, so he asked some of his new friends that he had been working with, that he had performed for to come to the courtroom that day, one of them being Michael Rubin, owner of Fanatics. At that time, he was part owner of the Philadelphia 76ers, and Desiree Perez, who is the CEO of Roc Nation. They joined him reluctantly, because they didn't think anything was going to happen, but when she gave Meek the two to four year sentence, it blew them away, and that was the beginning of REFORM Alliance.

When Meek came out of prison, he even had to spend a week in the hole, but when he came out of prison, to his credit, said that this movement is not about him. It's about the millions of people on probation and parole that are free, but not free, and that gave birth to REFORM Alliance, Michael Rubin. Desiree Perez was able to recruit other philanthropists to join the board, not to have a passive role, but an active role in justice reform. It was the first such organization we've had in the criminal justice Reform space. I was watching it from afar, and I was blown away, excited. Again, I've seen this movement in the toddler stage, and I felt Reform was critical for the next phase of the work, both because of who they had at the table, but Reform's ability to communicate to the massive. We needed a strategy for mainstreaming some of the issues that we were working on. Narrative change is a huge piece of what Reform has done and can do, and I was thrilled about it.

Then, it was not more than a year and a half later from when Reform was founded that I got a phone call to see if I wanted to be the next CEO of REFORM Alliance, and I could not be more thrilled. In the 5-year period, we've passed 18 pieces of legislation in 11 states. We create a pathway for 500,000 people to exit the system through probation and parole Reform. So that's one thing we do. Two, we tell stories. It's critically important to build on Meek's legacy by telling the stories of people impacted by the probation and parole system. It's a reentry story, but also it's a story about mothers and fathers coming home to children and families and then communities, and it's important that we use our platform to continue to uplift those stories and really get at the underpinning assumptions that people have about people that are coming out of the system, so that's critical. Then, the third key piece that we've been building towards our Reform since I took over was unemployment pathways.

There's significant pushback in the criminal justice Reform space, and that pushback is largely political, because we're in political season, but that pushback also is because we've seen spikes in crime throughout the country, and it's important that we, in the justice reform space, offer real solutions to help address some of the root causes of why people end up in the justice system. For me, at Reform, that means working to create real jobs, careers, and pathways for people coming out. We know that jobs are a critical step for people transitioning, and given the proximity of who's on my board, they employ a lot of people. Let's leverage that, right? And facilitate opportunities for people, but that's what we're up to. That's how we found it, and we seek to make real, measurable change and impact in the lives of people on probation and parole throughout the country, and do it in a way that creates opportunity for others in the justice reform space to advance their goals.

I really sit with the narrative component there, because I think all three of the inches that you just listed really require a shift in how we, as a country, talk about and think about not only the carceral system, but also those impacted by it. That seems like a fundamental component of this, and you also named there that it's a give and take, right? I think that, whether it's in policy or a narrative, public safety reform can often feel like it's a step forward and a step backwards, and I'm curious to hear how you feel that in the work and how do you keep that from breaking you down, as you're fighting day by day to make progress?

I've seen a lot of progress, right? And I think that helps. There was a time, Christian, where the only thing legislators wanted to hear was the fiscal argument, right? What's the fiscal case for reform? And then, it shifted, right? We went through a different phase where storytelling became critical and important. Everyone plays their different role, for sure, but organizations that I'm a part of, I am compelled to engage both in the justice work, the really important critical work that gets people out of prison and jails, but also the healing and support work, because I recognize that folks are in pain. That's kind of how I show up in this space, and it's important now, more than ever.

I also think it's the right thing to be doing right now, because I believe, and I've always believed, why I even got into this work, that we spend way too much money and resources on incarceration, and not resources on the things that help people and support people. Like I said earlier, in my early days, there was no social workers that came and talked to us when we lost a friend. We were expected to go to class, go to practice, keep going, and that's just not right. While at the same time there is a prison cell for all of us, we need a fundamental shift in how we talk about and think about change, and we need to continue to indict the justice system as a key reason why we don't have critical support services on the ground in our communities.

And it's so straightforward when you put it that way, but getting that point through requires you to dislodge narratives that people have been told and told each other for far longer than any of us have been alive, so how do you do that? How do you get somebody to challenge the way that they have come to understand this world in order to see a better one?

I think we need everyone, right? We need people that are going to speak truth to power and continue to be critical and talk about how we got here from a societal standpoint, from structural standpoint. We need that, right? We need to double down on those efforts, just like we need people that are going to be providing critical services to folks that are working with people that are homeless, dealing with addiction, and need housing, need other critical services. We need that, and I see myself as someone that's in the lane of changing laws and holding governments accountable for the conditions that we see in our community, and we need that, right? We need more of all of it. That's kind of how I see it, probably because so many of the folks that's doing great work, I've known them for a really long time, and I've learned to appreciate all aspects of the justice space.

I love that point about us needing everybody to create the world that we're striving for, right? That's undeniably true, and I think one thing that makes both you and Reform unique is your ability to speak to so many people, right? The tent that REFORM Alliance has built is remarkably big, and captures people on all different parts of the ideological spectrum, all different parts of the income ladder. It's a big tent. So I guess I'm curious to hear you speak on how that's possible, and also what kind of challenges come with navigating such a diverse coalition?

It's the genius of Meek and Michael Rubin when they set Reform up, along with Desiree Perez and Jay-Z. Having them at the table, key leaders in media, sports, and entertainment, supporting them, and part of my job is creating opportunities for them to weigh in, in the justice space, allows us to leverage their brands and leverage what they bring to the table to communicate out to people. That's a critical part of this job. It was very smart. We saw it with Red, Bono, and the HIV space, and it was genius then, and I thought it was genius when Michael Rubin and Meek Mill performed at all the different players in Reform because, with them, we get their platforms.

I guess the thing about Meek, he continues to resonate with everyday people on the streets of Philadelphia, Dallas, San Francisco, LA, you name it. I think it's important that would continue that legacy as well. So we have a social media kind of program called Reform on the Move, where we go and we talk to people on the streets about, first, we educate them about probation parole if they haven't heard of it, but if they have, and often do, and have been impacted, we create the opportunity for them to share their stories. That's important to do both, to do the large-scale narrative change with these amazing and powerful brands, and to hear from everyday people about what they want to see changed in their lives, as it relates to the criminal justice system or, specifically, probation and parole.

Thinking about making this movement accessible to everybody makes me reflect on a tension that I see with organizers and movement participants in my generation, which is a seeming tension between those identifying as abolitionists and those identifying as reformers. Do you wrestle with that tension, or is that a false choice?

I think it's a false choice. It's hard to name a time when abolition was successful that didn't start reform, right? So I think abolitionists should continue to champion abolition. I think people that care about reform, that want to get people out prison tomorrow, that want to provide real help and healing for people today, should be able to do that. It happens all over the globe. This conversation about abolition and reform, it's not a US specific conversation, but oftentimes it shows up in very confrontational ways here in this space, and that's what hurts my heart.

I don't think that's necessary. I don't think people should feel like they have to choose, and they're part of one group and not part of another. That's unnecessary. We need all of it. We need people that care about abolition and have abolition views, ideology to be strong and speak their views, but those of us that are working to get people out of the prison jail tomorrow should also be strong, have our views, and we should come together, talk, socialize, and not be confrontational, so that's my hope, is to create that bridge so that we see ourselves as part of the same community.

Again, it just goes back, for me, to this point about needing everybody, right? And the idea that everybody has a role to play, and part of our hope for this season of the podcast is to empower our listeners to identify with their role and to seek out that role, no matter where it fits in the movement.

I love that you are weighing into that conversation. It's an important conversation to have. A lot of my friends in this space are having it. A lot of funders and philanthropists are having it. It's critical that we get it out and get everyone's views out, but it's also critical that I think we communicate and engage with each other as one community, because we are.

We often think about social movements as being catalyzed by an individual event, right? And one thing that really stuck out about the work that we did together is how oriented you are to the constant behind the scenes organizing that is required to allow those moments to be catalytic, and I would just love to hear you talk on that for everybody.

I'm a community organizer. I'm not a lawyer, by trade. This is the only thing I've ever done. I started my career knocking on doors in Hartford, Connecticut, talking to people about safety, talking to moms who couldn't let their kids play outside because of open-air drug dealing and gun violence. That's me, and what I learned pretty early on, and I try to keep with me at every stage and phase of my career, is the importance of organizers talking to people and keeping campaigns and movements connected and strong. I said that all to say that it's critically important that we invest in organizers as next generation leaders. Many are leaders right now in their communities, but when I say next generation leaders, I look for to be people that understand the work at such a level that can give insight and perspective to both what people are dealing with, to what's going on in positions of power and influence, in terms of government, that can engage with elected leaders.

I find community organizing to be one of the most important and pivotal professions in this space, and so what I've tried to do at different parts of my career is create a leadership pipeline that trains, supports, and develops organizers because they're often forgotten about. I've been a part of several leadership academy. We're about to build another one here at Reform, where we're going to be training and supporting organizers. The reason why I talk about it from that perspective, Christian, is because organizing is hard work. You're holding people's lives, you're holding conversations, you're holding conflicts in your work, in your mind, in your body, and I just don't think we, as a movement, support organizers enough. We're going to launch a leadership academy here at Reform. I launched one at my previous job, Alliance for Safety and Justice, where we included somatic therapy along with training people around how to run a campaign, how to manage staff, how to negotiate, how to have difficult conversations, but I would love to see us, as a movement, do more to support organizing.

I think shining a light on that community building, I think, really is what you're describing here, is really important, because those catalytic events that can spark movements or draw attention to movements are so often moments of trauma, and I think if we define our movement on those moments of trauma, as opposed to the uplifting community building that's going on constantly, I think that comes at a loss.

You're exactly right, because these moments of trauma happen. What people see on TV is a reaction. What they don't see is the years of organizing that's happened in that community to help facilitate that reaction. Then, when the TV cameras go away, it's important to support and invest in those organizers to continue the hard work. The way I define the goal of an organizer is to help communities or facilitate the process for communities to be in control of the decisions that govern their lives. That's it, right? And so, it's important and critical for organizers to be invested then after the trauma, after the TV and the cameras leave, because that's when we need to make sure that it goes from whatever that reaction is to structural change. If you look in many of the places where there was organizing happened before traumatic event and then after, we've seen matters change, we've seen city councils change, and I love that, because that's when you know real impact is happening.

So on that note of sustained attention, I know April is National Second Chance month. Can you give us a sneak peek on what Reform has got planned?

We just hired a new CMO at Reform, a young man who came out of prison seven years ago, out of Philadelphia, and really just took the world by storm. His name is Wallo. He's a giant in this space. Any entertainer that comes through Philadelphia, they want to be on this podcast, Wallo's on parole until 2048, and it makes no sense for someone to have to deal with the things that he has to deal with. He employs a good number of people in his community, pays his taxes. He, obviously, has been a huge contributor, but he's on parole until 2048, and so we brought Wallo inside to help us with our organic storytelling and we're excited about it, so Second Chances with Wallo is going to be at the Reform on the Move podcast, and it's going to be bigger and better that we've ever seen it, where he's going to interview people on the street, talking to them about what their needs are, given helpful and important advice to someone on parole himself to people, and it's going to be dynamic.

I'd love for you to help me kind of paint a picture here, right? As you know, the theme of our season is re-imagining our world, and so I want to paint a picture to help our listeners imagine the world that we're talking about, so let's imagine a society that has public safety for everybody. What does that society look like?

I appreciate the question. You see, I have three sons, right? So I got into this work because I lost friends, but I stay in this work because of my three sons. When I think about that question, I think about what I want for them. I want them to be able, Christian, to go in any community they want to go into, not be followed when they go to a grocery store, not to be pulled over by police. I want them to be safe. I want them to not have to worry about community violence or gun violence. I want them to be able to take any class or go to any school that they choose. I want them to be able to grow up, have families, and not lose one friend to violence. I want them to thrive and live a long life. That, to me, is the world that I'm fighting for, is a world for their complete uninterrupted freedom

In this world that we're building. How should people think about justice?

I think justice should be rooted in accountability. It should be rooted in healing and support. It should be rooted in prevention. It should be rooted in addressing the root cause of whatever happened. I think those are the key tenets of justice, and if we can do those things, I think will have a way better world as opposed to what we've been seeing, which is a one-size-fits-all approach to what we call justice, and that's incarceration, and that doesn't work. What works are the things that I laid out: accountability, healing, prevention, and addressing root causes.

I want to get into our rapid-fire questions. So first, what's something that is considered radical but shouldn't be?

Love. People are afraid to love.

What is currently bringing you joy?

Sons, they're amazing. I love them. I'm here for them. Also, I get a chance to meet the most amazing folks on the ground each and every day, that work to take their pain and turn it into their purpose, and I'm humbled by them each and every time I find myself in someone's living room, in someone's community, or breaking bread, and people share their stories, whether it be moms that lost their sons to violence, and want to work to create safer and better communities, or people that were on probation and parole, and are being harassed by parole officers or have to wear these ankle bracelets, and there's nothing stopping them, nothing stopping them. And truly humbled by my engagement and communication with them, and that also keeps me going.

On a related note, how do you self-care?

I can do way better in terms of that, and that's going to be a focus of mine in '24. I mean, my kids play sports, so the time that I'm in my element is watching them play. Just want to be that dad, that supportive. So right now, that's how I self-care.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten?

In politics, never forget out of count. When I first was working to change laws, someone said, "Can you count?"

I'm like, "Yeah, I can count."

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]They was like, "Good. You'll be all right if you can count. If you can count, if you can count votes, you'll be all right," and you never forget that. You never forget all politics are local. That's critically important in the political space. In the family space, it's important just to be an active listener with your family and your children, so I try to be there. The active listening, I think, is something that I learned through the years, and has been hugely helpful as a father.

What about an artist you currently have on repeat?

Nipsey Hussle. I got a chance to meet Nipsey five months before he passed, and it was a great experience for me, because the way he came up, he believed in himself, and then he just put out nothing but positive thoughts. He forced you to believe in yourself if you listen. I think a dedication in that one song talks about opportunity meeting preparation, so I go back to Nipsey a lot.

Football or basketball?

Football.

Cowboys or Eagles?

Cowboys.

My last question for you is what are you dreaming of?

This is going to sound cliche, but really, a better tomorrow.

I don't think that's cliche. I think that's why you're here. I think that's why I'm here, and I think that's why anybody who's listening, I think that's why they're here too.

For sure.

Well, it's always a pleasure to see you, to connect with you, Robert. Really appreciate you. Thank you for being here today with us.

Christian, thank you. I really appreciate the talk.

I am still sitting with this idea that we need all of us, because part of the challenge of building a better world is that imagining is only half the battle. The other half is figuring out how to get there, and moving together in a way that embodies the destination. Building a world that we don't currently have requires us to do both of those things at the same time, something Kelly Hayes and Mariame Kaba wrote beautifully about when they said, "Collective action is not the only ingredient to make transformative change. We also need sound strategy and resources, and we need radical imagination. Radical imagination is essential, because the horizon that we are working toward is a world we have never seen."

It's an enormous task that lies ahead of us. Building the world we deserve is the work of generations, not lifetimes, but when I sit with the weight of that call to action, I feel hopeful, grateful, and proud to carry a mantle that my ancestors carried before me. It is a joy to do this work, and it's a privilege to do it in solidarity with such inspiring peers. The fact is, whether you recognize it or not, whether you know your role or not yet, we are all in this work together, finding our lane and keeping it pushing. We have to remember, as we push, that this journey is unavoidably messy. We are asking questions and looking for answers at the same time. Not every answer we come up with will be the right one, and not every turn will be the right one.

But we can't let our fear of getting lost prevent us from getting going, so I want to leave you with one final quote from Kelly Hayes and Mariame Kaba, who wrote, "the most important thing you can do to transform the world is act. Taking action is a practice of hope. Experience and meaning are derived from doing. To transform the conditions of our oppression, we can only do what we can today, where we are in the best way we know how. We can only survive together." With that, I want to thank Darren Isom for passing the mic to me and [inaudible 00:34:39]. This has been a unique opportunity to reflect on the adjacent possible, and we appreciate you sharing the space with us. It's been a pleasure. Back to you, Darren,

The great American contralto, Marian Anderson, once shared, "Leadership should be born out of the understanding of the needs of those who would be most affected by it," and as we envision this season of Dreaming in Color, we wanted to pass the mic to elevate the voices, perspectives, and lived experiences of the next generation of leaders all embodying the new world of opportunities that the future promises. We're living through a massive generational shift in the workplace and American society, more broadly, as baby Boomers finally stepped down from leadership roles and pass batons to the younger generations coming after. As a Gen Xer, I joke with my team all the time that the baton is being passed between the Boomers and the Millennials. Gen X wants no part of any of this, and would love to go back to being ignored as soon as possible.

But the way the numbers break down, there's a 10-year period where we have to lead by managing the baton pass. No way around it, and as we conclude this season, I'm reminded of a quote from my mentor, Urvashi Vaid, that she offered in one of our very first Dreaming in Color episodes, "Those of us who are running towards liberation, towards a vision of a different social and economic order, we're one team, running a relay race together, handing the baton back and forth to each other all the time. It's in our collective that we find our strength and our purpose. It's in our collective that the race is won. A daunting race, for sure, but the most beautiful collective to be passing the baton back and forth with," and that's it for season three, but I look forward to having the mic again for season four of Dreaming in Color, coming later this year. Until then, stay well, lovelies.

Thanks for listening to Dreaming in Color. A special shout out to the folks who make it happen. Our wonderful show producer, Denise Savas, our creative director, Ami Diane, our video editors, Jenny Lu, Stephen Chaya, and Dave Clark McCoy, our graphic designer, Diana Jiminez, our audio engineer, Theresa Buchanan, and a huge shout-out to our ever-brilliant Bridgespan production team: Darren Isom, Cora Daniels, Christina Pistorius, and Ryan Wenzel. What a squad, y'all. Be sure to rate, subscribe, review wherever you listen to podcasts. Catch you next time.