In this episode, Dr. Aumatma and Tanya Mitra dive deep into one of the most common sources of tension in relationships: finances. They explore how money stories, societal roles, and cultural expectations influence financial dynamics within relationships, especially in interracial partnerships. With a blend of personal anecdotes and expert insights, the hosts tackle the complexities of power dynamics, ambition, and the evolving roles of men and women when it comes to providing and nurturing. Whether you’re navigating your own financial challenges with your partner or curious about how money influences modern relationships, this episode offers real, honest, and thought-provoking conversation.

What We Discussed:

• The impact of money stories: How subconscious beliefs around finances influence relationships.
• Cultural and societal expectations: The traditional "provider" and "nurturer" roles, and how these are shifting in modern relationships.
• Financial power dynamics: Why women can struggle to fully embrace their feminine energy when there's financial stress.
• Ambition vs. contentment: How partners with differing levels of ambition can find balance in their financial lives.
• Practical financial strategies: The importance of having open conversations about money, lifestyle, and future planning.

A Few Things We Said:

• “Finances often bring up stuff we didn’t even know was there, but it’s always there, lurking beneath the surface.”
• “Society has conditioned us to believe certain roles when it comes to money, and we’re constantly navigating that as couples.”
• “If you're in a relationship where you're always the one driving the financial ship, resentment can easily build if it's not addressed.”
• “It's not about who pays for what—it’s about the energy behind it, and how that influences your dynamic as a couple.”
• “Whether you're providing financially or nurturing emotionally, there's always a way to strike a balance in a partnership if you're communicating openly.

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Get ready for real and raw discussions as we dive into navigating mixed-race relationships and motherhood to the intersections of our lives, money, and so much more.

Welcome, welcome, welcome back. Welcome. I want to dive in today. Just go

sit there. Okay, okay. Ready? Yeah.

(...)

What if-- Okay, well, we know this, right? Hold on, hold on. Let me set it up.

(...)

We know that finances are pretty much the number one cause of disruption, okay, not divorce. I'm not going to throw out that stat, right?

Yeah, yeah. But disruption

in a relationship. Mm-hmm. Along with a few other things, but finances always comes out in almost every study all over the world as the number one thing. Why? Go.

(...)

(Laughter)

I think finances often are charged with all of our subconscious beliefs.

(...)

I feel like it's so deep, but we don't treat it as deep.(...)

Right, we don't treat it as deep.

(...)

Because we think that it has to do with a number of what's in the bank account, but if we really break it down within the context of a relationship, I think that finances is,(...) A, we were raised with belief systems around money that we have adopted unknowingly, and then we get into a relationship with someone who maybe has a completely different belief system around money, and it's just going to be like a rub.

(...)

Or it's so extreme where you,(...) like, there's just like difference, there's so many differences and so many money stories and money beliefs and triggers around money and finances that really, like, in the context of a relationship, it can bring up a lot of shit.

(...)

A lot of... And it does.

(...)

You know, like, stuff that we haven't even thought was there.

It is there and

it's going to bring it up.

For sure. So with that, and then it's the society that we live in that has set us up to believe a certain type of thing about whose role is what when it comes to money, right?

(...)

Well, so let's talk about that, because I'm curious what you think about it. You said that society has set us up. So what has society set us up with?

I think culturally, so let's like zoom out even further, right? We live in a patriarchal world. The larger construct at play, I believe at least, is the patriarchy, right? And in most patriarchal systems, there is a provider and there's somebody, a nurturer of some, you know, so... And predominantly, historically, there have been certain roles associated with what providing looks like and what provide... And listen, I think that we have created context around all of this. I don't think that there is one way for sure, but I think that the context that has been created around this very much

(...)

says,(...) you know, they're... I'm gonna break it down super duper duper simple, men deal with money, women not so much. Or, so I'm saying that that exists on top of your own individual feelings about it. Because you could have been raised in a household where that was not the conversation, where it wasn't about the man and the woman, but you could still have limiting beliefs around what you deserve around money, who money is for, whether money is evil or not, whether, you know, wanting money

is crazy. Money grows on trees. Yeah, like

there's just... Right? So, what I'm saying is that there are so many layers and I think that there is a bigger construct at play when it comes to the topic of money finances in particular that isn't at play in other parts of relationships. Is that fair?

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Because we all have individual, very strong individual shit around. And then we have to come together and the way that we operate in the world is with money. So, it is evident in our day to day. It's like a part of our all the time life. Whereas, you know, even things like sex are not part of our like every day moment to moment consciousness the same way that money is. You know what I mean? There are other parts of relationships that don't

come up as frequent. Well, men might disagree with that.

They're actually saying now that women think about sex just as much as men. Oh, wow. So, like that has been actually disproven and proven in the other way that women think about sex just as much as men just differently

and not as activated.

It's

not as activated by whatever. Different conversation for

different reasons. Next time, we will talk

about that. Next time on Linnie and Brown Girl.

(...)

Okay.

So, what is your, what you were saying about the protector, provider,(...) and the nurturer roles,(...) obviously traditionally masculine, feminine. What is your take on that?(...)

Which part?

(...)

The roles, the masculine, feminine. Like, do you believe that it's inherent or society imposed?(...)

I think it's a little bit of both.(...) And depending on who you are, how you grew up, I think some of it is inherent in that.

(...)

I think that there are both men and women who are very naturally nurturing because there are a lot of men who are naturally nurturing.

Absolutely. I have met a lot

of men who are naturally. And the nurturing is almost like shamed out of them. You know what I mean? But they are, you know, we meet little boys who are just the sweetest, most loving little boys and they're told to man up. And it might not be their parents, but again,

society. Or like

a coach or a teacher or an uncle who thinks differently than the parents think. You know, whatever.

(...)

So I think that we both can occupy both roles. I don't think that there is. I think we both do occupy a blend of both at all times, right? To different degrees.

Absolutely. And like a man who is not at all nurturing,(...) it has also like equal problems.

Yeah, like

that's problematic in

so many ways. Absolutely. Absolutely. So any extreme of it is problematic, right? A woman who can only find herself of value when she's nurturing other people, that's a problem too,

right? Absolutely. There's

sacrifice there and what's going on with you. And there's obviously insecurity and there's some kind of wound and there's some kind of trauma there. So yeah, all of it in extremity is too much. But do I believe, you know, in today's world, the world, the way that we live and the way that we're able to live now, if men should occupy that role or if that is a man's role, I don't believe that. I think that there should always be partnership in a partnership. That's just basically my fundamental belief. You know what I mean? Whatever that partnership looks like for you is what it looks like for you. So if that is the man is traditionally handling the finances and you're good with that, like truly, if you're good with that, okay, that works for you. Do I think that's partnership? Probably not so much. Do I think that, you know,(...) just being a person in the world that you should have a little knowledge about what's going on. Yeah. But truly, if it works for you and it causes no friction for you to do it like that, cool, like cool for people who have different expectations that fucks things up, right? Having one expectation and the execution of that expectation being different, right? So whatever works for you. The problem is that a lot of people don't know what their own money story is.

(...)

And because of that are not able and their money story brings them some kind of shame or there's some insecurity around it. And not a lot of people were taught to talk about money openly, right? Money is like one of those hush hush things that we don't, we don't share how much we make. We don't share how

much we spend.

(...)

Dude, in New York you barely tell someone how much you pay for rent. It's like, oh, why do you want to know that information?

(...)

I'm not

coming for your apartment. I'm talking about it.(...) Bomb now. It's like that, right? Wow. Where, you know, so there's just like the secrecy around it that we grow up with. So people are not talking about it, right? So then you're not really wanting to face it. So how are you talking about it with your partner? But yet every single day you got to make money decisions every single day. And you have to make some of that, the money decisions that you make, some of them affect both of you equally and you pretty profoundly, right? Like, so when there's a fracture or a discrepancy or, you know, a break in the way that money is being managed or dealt with or not dealt with in a relationship, I can easily see why that would break people. What's your money story?

(...)

I have a lot of them. Which one?

(...)

The current one, the one that comes to mind right now. Well, how do you, how do you guys manage money in your home? Like, do you find that you've found a rhythm that works? Was it always that way? Have you ever, you know, has that been, you know, challenging for you?

I think we have a really good rhythm around our day to day.

(...)

As far as like what, like what we need to function, survive and thrive in our lives is straight.

(...)

The thing that I have been moving into lately is like, what's the long-term trajectory of our money?

(...)

And we both come from backgrounds that are like pretty different as far as money goes.

(...)

And I know for my parents, like literally all they did was save. And they saved a lot of it. Right? By the time my parents both passed away, there was like a million and a half plus dollars.

So they saved really

well. Right?

(...)

But they saved to the extent of a detriment, I think. Right? Like they never really enjoyed the money that they made. They worked two to three jobs most of their lives.

So they didn't live. They didn't. Yeah.

They really came in with this idea of like, how do we help our kids do better, be better? Right? And here we are brand new to this country. We need to figure out how to make money to like help them. But they didn't really,(...) I think later in their lives, they probably started investing, which grew the money a little bit,

(...)

but they didn't know we didn't come from money. I feel like there's a rhetoric of like people who come from money that learn things early in their lives that we didn't learn.

For sure. And for sure.

(...)

So the conversation is being had. And I think that there's just more overall comfort with money. So it's a different thing saving and almost like you said, to a detriment, saving up a million dollars. And there's like so much fear and anxiety around that money. And there's so much that it's like stress money, right? Like there's like a fear that it's going to go. It's just so much stress around it. Where as I like, you know, I don't know, I see it on TV. Like I'm thinking about

succession right now. Succession. Yes. Is this show?

Yeah. Okay. Come on. It's a session. I think you would like it. It's on HBO.

(...)

It's about HBO. That's the problem. Yeah.(...) So

they got a new bundle. We just got a new bundle. We talk about that off the podcast.

(...)

But, um, succession is a show and this is actually very relevant to what we're talking about. Succession is a show about the successors for adult children of a media magnet and it's based in New York. So it's based on, you know, sort of this, um,(...) what's his name? The media, the, uh, it won't come to me right now, but it's essentially, you know, so he's a media magnet. He owns several companies and he's getting older and his kids are kind of wanting to take over by he's very, um,(...) stubborn and you know, and it's about the kids kind of trying to overtake and take over the business and lead it in a new direction.(...) And because it's about that and that's the premise of the show, you're kind of brought into this world where money is always the conversation, right? And they just have so much more understanding of the operations and the track transactional value and how to, you know, what money can do, what it means, how it can, how it can be manipulated. How, you know, like they just speak. It's a language. It's an entire language that we are what we watch from behind the screen.

Right. Whereas this is

a lot of people's. Yeah.

A lot of people live there.

They speak in their home. Yeah. And, and I think that there's a comfort that comes with speaking that language and having a security around money versus that scarcity, you know, like stress, anxiety, fear, money. And I think it's only from that place of security that you can actually create more, more money. Yeah. How can you not? But I don't know that I'm like all the way there. You know what I mean? Like I know that as a concept, but it is a hard thing to apply because you have to wade through all your money stories.

Right. Yeah. And I think I started, so I've been on this journey for quite some time, but I'm finally getting to the point of like feeling very real about.

(...)

Like how much more do I want to keep working at the level that I'm producing?

(...)

Right. And that has, it has a burn rate that I think is higher than I'd like to admit.

(...)

And I definitely am starting to see like the,(...) my desire to be like, man, all these people have figured some shit out that I still haven't figured out.(...) And it's mostly around investing,

right? So I've been like

deep diving into investing and like, what are the strategies? How do I learn? Who do I learn from? And at what level,(...) like how can we have this little bit of money that we have grow on its own without the constant effort,(...) which is a different level of

(...)

playing, if you want to call it that. Like for a long time for me, play was literally like, how do I figure out this money thing in my business? Right. And so like, what levers do I need to pull? And I figured it out really well, but it's time to move away from how much more can I do to how do I just have the money making money instead of me producing it?

(...)

So that's my story right now.

It's like

how it's figuring that out and simultaneously feeling like my partner is a different person with different story with a different background. And he's like, I don't ever want to think about that shit.

(...)

Or that's not my like, it's maybe he's not even overtly saying it. It's more like in the subtle tones of it's not a priority. It's not something he's putting a ton of energy into.

(...)

So for me, it's like, okay, so then do I just take over and drive this ship? Or do I try to get him on board and then he drive the ship? Like, where do we follow it

that we haven't still

figured that out, right?

Yeah, that's it. I think it's a place that a lot of couples find themselves, right? And I think it is even hard for some couples to manage day to day. Like they don't even have a grasp of day to day and listen, everybody's story is different and their things change. And some people just struggle financially and that is just not because of a fault. It is because of circumstance or whatever, right? And there is inevitably going to be more stress in the relationship because of that. If you can't even figure out the day to day. And so like, you know, not taking that away from any couple who's in that situation because that is a real,(...) like that is a live stressor, right? And again, because it's something that we have to deal with every day, it is coming along on your relationship journey with you every day. It's like all

the way. It's like the third wheel that's always with you. Well, in

every decision you make, right? Everything that you do is kind of coded with this, like the money, the money, the money. So I see when couples are in that situation, how it really does deeply affect them. Like it's a wonder that couples who are in that kind of financial situation can stay together because it is such a real stress. It's a very active one. But for people who are in a situation where now they're starting to think about future, right?

(...)

That's where you start to realize that so many couples do have to face their money story or their lack thereof, right? Where they've never had to even consider what money story. Like, what is my relationship with money? I don't know. I don't give a fuck. Like I don't want to think about this. Or it's like, oh shit, we're getting older. Like we need to start thinking about this. Maybe we need to figure out where our money is going to go if something happens to one of us. I think a lot of times when people have aging parents, they're like, oh shit,(...) something might happen over here. We need to think about our own process. But I do see that that's a time where it does come up as being a different desire for

the two different people

in the partnership.(...) And I think when it's important to you, if it's not important to your partner, you can never expect them to have the same level of desire or investment that you do. And when you do, that expectation is the thing that's going to be to your detriment. Like, just got to take on and take it on and drive the ship. You know what I mean? Like, that's truly what I think is it. But that usually breeds resentment.(...) So it's like you can't have one, but you have to make a decision and you have to be okay with that decision. Because yes, it's for the better of the two of you. And it's not that necessarily that the partner doesn't want that for both of you. But you cannot force someone to want to use the same measure and method and have the same level of investment.(...) Should they, quote unquote, want to be as invested? Sure. In a perfect idealistic world. Sure.

(...)

But I

think it's part of growing together, right? Like, if you might...

(...)

What we've seen is like people grow, either they grow separately or they grow together, right? And if you aren't growing together in this, like, I think a relatively crucial piece of life,

(...)

then there's a bigger chance that you're growing apart.

(...) Likely.

(...)

Likely, again, unless you could find a way to be okay with it.

Yeah.(...)

Because I do think that couples can have very different roles in their relationship and take on very different responsibilities. And there can be like a 100 to 0 ratio in certain things where a couple can still be very functional and very operational and very happy.(...) But it has to be okay with you, right? Like, you have to accept it as being, you know, your... This is, I'm taking this on and generally it works well when there's something else reciprocated on the other end. That might be 100% on their shoulders and not on yours. You know what I mean? Where it's like...

Where it feels more good. Yeah, like, I'll carry

this and I understand that, you know, my desire is different than my reality. Meaning like, I wish you were more invested. I wish you cared more. You know what I mean? But okay, that's not the case. I got this, but I'm going to need you to get something then. I'm going to need you to pick up something. That's often what's not happening. Right. And when it's finances, it feels like one of the heavier things to carry.(...)

Almost than

almost anything else, right? Yeah. So the person, when it is sort of, you know, is imbalanced like that, right? When it is kind of teetering on one side heavier, that person usually does feel the relevance. However, I don't hear a whole lot of men, and correct me if I'm wrong, complaining when they're the ones who handle the finances and their wife or woman does not. I hear a lot of women who are handling the finances complain when it's their man who does not. Mm-hmm. Talk to me about that. What do you think?

(...)

Well, let's... Hold on. Hold on.

(...)

Where are you with the money story in your own lives?

(...)

Um...

(...)

So I have a lot of,

past feelings about partnership and money because of my ex... Mm-hmm. ...my past relationship. Yeah. So I was very...

(...)

I thought I would be very intentional about moving into a new relationship where that was not part of...

(...)

Mm-hmm.

...the sort of...(...) Undercurrent. Yes, and like part of the things that frustrate me. Mm-hmm. That has not happened. Mm-hmm. I did not have enough time to know that. Mm-hmm. Because of the circumstances I got pregnant very fast.

(...)

Um, so...

(...)

In my current situation, Ty is not disorganized or, um...(...) He's not a spender. He's very much a saver... Mm-hmm. ...and very much practical with money, but he's not interested in money. He's not interested in

money.(...) Mm-hmm.

And because of his lack of interest...(...) Yeah. ...he's not done anything that interesting with money. Mm-hmm. Whereas I have. I have, you know, I have owned a few properties. I have invested some things, blah, blah, blah.

(...)

But I did that because I wanted to push myself ahead in certain ways. Now, I also lost a lot of money in my divorce. Mm-hmm. Over $100,000.

(...)

And then I had property and blah, blah, blah. So I know what it's like to have had money and live a certain way. I know what it's like to lose money in a relationship because of a relationship. So I also don't place the same value on money. Mm-hmm. Just in general. Right. So

that my money

story, my personal money story has changed. Whereas I was very much activated by numbers and a certain number before.(...) And not like a particular, like, I didn't equate it with success necessarily, but I had goals for myself in terms of, like, whatever. And I did okay for myself. But I also have money blocks where I didn't allow myself to, like, surpass a certain number, right? So I've shifted my entire relationship. Mm-hmm. Or I'm in the process of shifting. I have not shifted. Let me take that back. It is something that I'm very actively working on. But I also, again, I can look at my partner and say,(...) "He's not interested in this.

(...)

I don't think he-- I can force him to be. But he's not irresponsible in any way. In fact, he's much less suspender than I am.

Right. I'm the problem.

He's not." Right. So I can accept that in him. Mm-hmm. And I can say, "Is he part of the conversation?" Yes. When I ask him to look at something, does he want to? No.

Absolutely not. And I'm going to pretend

that he does. Right. And does that frustrate me sometimes? Absolutely yes. And do-- does it cause disruption in our relationship sometimes? Absolutely.(...) Mm-hmm. But it--(...) but if it wasn't that, it would be something else because it's mild enough for it to just be, like, something that I know is going to be

(...)

something else. Right. And we have-- we have 69% of problems in relationship with perpetual, right? This is one of our perpetual problems.

Right.

So we learn how to manage it. Mm-hmm. So for us, it's management. We have different--(...) we are learning to now grow together much, much, much more aligned. Mm-hmm. But also, we've had to make some-- do some things together. So we bought a house together. We now are, you know, looking at investing together.

(...)

We are now learning to have a more joint relationship with money. But we had to do a lot of other things first. We had to come up with a lot of more mess. But again, that doesn't shift my understanding that he's never going to be at where I'm at, right? Mm-hmm. Do I wish he were? 100%. Do I still look back in time and say, "Well, I should have met that investment maker who

did this in a

battle?" Yeah, but when I have liked him, probably not, right? So-- and does time compensate in the way that I was saying with a hundred other things? Absolutely. There are things that he picks up at a hundred that I don't even have to think about, right? Mm-hmm. And those things are enough for me to be able to, in those moments of frustration,(...) say, "Okay, like I wish you would." Or, "Yo, you have to make time on Sunday. We have to sit down. And if you don't, then I'm going to be pissed off, like, "Yes, and this is going to cause some problems." Yeah, like, it will cause some problems. Mm-hmm. But he understands, "Okay, like, I need to also pull myself out of my own comfort and my own avoidance of it." And he is also starting to look at his own money story around because, you know, we are so activated around it, too. So, listen, I think that's one of those things that's a constant growth and evolution and adjustment and, you know, circumstances of life changes, and you have to adjust and adapt, and people have a really hard time doing that. And understandably so.(...) It's not easy.

It's hard stuff.

It is. It's really hard

stuff. I think, yeah, like, the parenting, probably one of the hardest things that people have to deal

with in a relationship. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think the finances exacerbates the parenting problems, not even so much the other way around, right? Mm-hmm. When you're struggling or when you want to make different decisions around money, a lot of times culturally, too, right? People grow up with different cultural, you know, assignments to money and what money means in different cultures.(...) Some people view money as being very evil, right? And people who are the stewards of money of being not trustworthy. Mm-hmm. And some people are like, you know, money is just the means to an end. And some people are like, money means I've made it in the world. And so, the more of it I have, the more, you know, success

that I feel I have. The more I made it, yeah. The more I made

it. Yeah. So, just investigating what that is, you know, between the two of you is...

really really important, but you know that can change over time too. Not everybody just

sees, you know, one

dimensional. I feel like absolutely

and I feel like when I met my husband 12 years ago or something like that, we were in very different spaces. He was in the corporate world like doing the whole corporate thing and was 100% like, "Oh you're struggling in your business? No worries, I got you." Versus now we're in a different stage of life and I imagine that by the time we're both ready to retire, we'll be in a different

stage with

a different relationship to money.

(...)

So it's always evolving and it...(...) so going back to your question about why do women get frustrated when men don't show up in this way. I believe that there is always a part of the feminine that wants to be nurtured and taken care of. And like that whole like provider protector thing is like it sounds so cliche in so many ways, yet I know that in the times of my life when I have felt that way, there is a different degree of relaxation and surrender that I can

do

versus when I don't feel that way, then I'm more like,(...) "It's fine but there's a...(...) just like my body and my nervous system just doesn't relax

in the same way."

(...)

And I don't think that it's a negative like societal imposition. I really do think that it's innate to the feminine,

that we want to have that like feeling of being taken care of and vice versa. I equally think that the masculine wants to provide.

Do you think that that's only through financial means or do you think that

(...)

provide can be a few different things?

Of course, I think providing can come in a lot of different ways,

but I do think...

providing specifically in the context of a comfortable life

is

kind of core to helping the feminine in that place of surrender and relax.

(...)

Do I think that every man goes around like, "How do I provide for her?" No, probably not. You know what I mean? I think that especially today, there are so many men that(...) don't even work. They're like happy to...

There are so many women now retiring their husband.

I don't get this trend. Someone said this the other day and I was like, "Yeah, why is this a trend?"

It's like people are shouting over the rooftop, "I retired my husband." It's

the new thing to do is to retire your husband, but to me that is a big red flag. It's literally like, "So that means now you are taking on the financial burden.(...) You're taking on the finances fully to retire your husband whose mission in his inherent beingness is to provide and protect."(...)

So what if you're providing and protecting in other ways? Yeah,

but the whole "I retired my husband" thing doesn't feel like a thing.

(...)

And I

will admit... You can retire your wife, but you can't retire your husband?

You could retire your wife, but no men are screaming that from rooftops.

No, and I think that's just the semantic part of it. It's so weird.

(...)

These women are shouting here from the rooftops because they're like, "Look what I've been able to accomplish. I don't need a man."(...) Not so much even in those words. I think it's like,(...) I am able to

create and fly and be financially secure or

be financially able to support my family, including my husband who maybe up until now has been going hard for us. And maybe up until my business was at this point or my career was at this level, he has been going hard. So I think we need the whole context for that

I think there are a lot of situations where the man from the beginning was running things until whatever point. It doesn't mean that the woman wasn't or the wife wasn't, but maybe now he's like, "Yo,(...) like, let me chill for a second." Or she's like, "Dude, I see what you've done for us. You can sit down." Do I think that requires someone yelling for their rooftops that they retired or hasn't? Not necessarily, no. But I think it's a dope thing that women are in a position that they can do that if they think that, if that's something that works for

them. And exactly. And if it's something that that relationship wants.

Yeah, totally. Of course.

Right? Like if the man and woman in that relationship are like, "Yeah, I totally want to sit on my ass and do nothing

for the rest of my life." If they're sitting on their ass and doing nothing.

Like, "What are these men doing? I'm very confused."

I definitely know men who are stay-at-home fathers who do literally everything that a stay-at-home mother does.

Okay. Right? So there

are men who are out there doing that. I don't think that it's fair for us to think that just because you're retiring a husband, that he's sitting around doing absolutely nothing. Right? I think that there are husbands who, again, one have provided for a long time and maybe(...) also traditionally in heterosexual relationships, the man tends to be older than the woman traditionally.(...) So, you know, age might be a factor. Time and stage of life, health might be a factor. Also, if you are sitting around doing nothing, then we're going to have a whole different conversation. It's not really about me having retired you. It's about, "What are my expectations then when I retire you?" If you're going to just be sitting around, then we're going to have to have a different conversation.(...) But there are the same way that a woman who doesn't work, who might have older children, who she doesn't have to take care of, what she do all day?

I don't know. Like go to yoga?

Like meet

up with her friends?

But you can't go to yoga too? What's up?

(...)

He's going to spend his time at the gym.

That's cool. Whatever. For me, it bothers me 0%. Like not even remotely bothers me, the idea or the concept. As long as you're doing some shit. Like I can't be with no man whether it's being compensated for financially or not, that is sitting around doing nothing. Like that's just not going to happen. Right? So are you volunteering your time? Are you doing something with the children? Are you creating something? Are you holding down the house? Are you, you know,(...) running a marathon and training? Like are you doing something to still grow? Are you still doing something to be activated

and active?

And are you also fulfilling the protection and the security and the safety part in other ways? Because I don't think that I need your money in order to feel fully protected. Yes. I understand how that is a basic thing that we need shelter. We need to know those things. Right? And when we're in partnership, yes, we need those things to be provided for in some way. And I do think that innately women feel protected and safer and more secure when a man is able to provide that, even if she could provide it herself. Right. But I don't think that if he doesn't, if he no longer provides the financial aspect that you can't still feel safe and protected and secure with your man. I 100% don't believe that.

It depends. Well,

you have

you have been in this circumstance. So I'm a little surprised. But for me, like the my my ex was also, I think, very similar from what the little bits that I picked up is like my ex just did not work for a long time.(...) And the the financial stress of me carrying us was enough to be like, I'm out. Like this is not

going to work at all. He wasn't doing anything to compensate. So I'm saying

he thought he was doing something.

He thought he was, but you weren't receiving it as that. So that's not the same thing. Maybe.

(...) But he's like, Oh, I'm like figuring out my next move, like figuring

out my business. For like six months. But then what we do in the next, right? So yes, there are parameters. Again, it's like, if that still is being upheld, right, so whatever it is that you need. So if I'm a woman who is retiring, quote unquote, my husband, and we still got kids, then there are going to be expectations around you holding down the kids are going to be expectations around what is done in the household. Or maybe I'm making the money, but you're managing the finances, right? It like there are still ways for you to be providing and protecting and showing up.

Yeah. And it's a contribution piece. It's like, how are you contributing to our life together?

And that

may not be like, overtly growing our finances, but it can still show up in other ways.

Absolutely. And I think that that's available in every relationship to the degree that the two partners are willing to have it. Right.

So I was watching Love is Blind UK. Okay.(...) So I watched you

watch it.

Did you watch

it? I watched it.

Okay. I love Love is Blind. I love is Blind Dramatic.

(...)

This is new information. So I just put on a new I think I watched your first season and then it was like, are you a relationship coach? What's love is blind? I watched Love is Blind. Now I'm hooked to. All right.

So there was Maria.

Okay. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And Maria.

I

(...)

thought they were the cutest couple, right? I really always answer them. I like them a lot. But Maria said to Tom that her expectation culturally, okay, she was very specific about this being a cultural expectation of hers, was that in the courting phase that a men pay for everything. Yeah. And in the end, it's already out the so this is not a spoiler alert. So you know, if you haven't watched it, that's your old fault. It's been out.

In the in the end, when they end up not getting married, Tom says that part of the reason that he decided not to go forward with the marriage and of course, this has been heavily edited, is for their, their different values differences. Well, they're not financial.

Values. Yeah,

yeah, totally. If I had a boy, I would not want to raise him to feel like he's obligated to pay for and support a woman. And if I had a little girl, I would certainly want her to be raised to be an independent woman who can provide for herself. And he said those words, you know, not quite random, but basically,

that's pretty close.

Yeah. So, you know, we have this woman who comes from a culture where the man does traditionally(...) serve in the role of providers, also religion, religion was in factor there too, where the man does serve as a provider and the protector and the breadwinner.(...) And for her, like she was very specific that in the court of phase, that the man that is part of the man's job is to pay for everything to, you know, take care of the woman and show the woman through that means that she's being cared for and loved and whatever. And this dude was like, I'm not doing it, right? So he tried, he tried to think he tried to like, you know, see if that was going to be the right fit for him. So what do you think about that?(...) What did you feel about Tom and Maria?

I think that they made the right decision to not marry.(...) I did like them together overall, but I think that he had a very strong, like, I don't want my girl being raised. I want an independent daughter and like a young boy that doesn't feel like he has to be taking care of all the women, which I understand,(...) I partly agree with.(...) And then there's another part of me that also sees her perspective is like, yeah, she just wants to be taken care of.(...) And it like it,

(...)

the fact that she put it in the cultural context, I think helps,(...) but she's also,

(...)

I think if it wasn't in the context of culture, she could be interpreted as a gold digger.

(...)

And she had a little bit of that energy. But I think where they didn't, they didn't show enough of this, which is like, did they actually have conversations? Because I feel like she was not saying that she needed a provider forever and ever. Right.

She said that at the end too. She said, I didn't say that, like, I'm never going to pay for anything or

like, or that she was expecting

(...)

that he pay for her rent and stuff like that. It was also a context of,(...) he was extremely judgey about her, her career.(...) And that would have rubbed me the wrong way as well. Like, wait, you're going to judge me for what I've chosen to do as my career. That's not cool. But where, where they already had started diverging is he did not acknowledge that she couldn't meet him where he was at financially. I think there was a discrepancy to begin with. So like where he might have liked to go to an extravagant dinner, she didn't have the means to do that. Or he lived in this she, she apartment. She doesn't have the means to pay for

half of that.

Right. And, and I think that there are creative ways to do finances when there is that much of a gap that you like, I feel like more commonly in relationships, it's like whoever's like you're putting in 50% of what you earn, not 50% of the overall income or the overall expenses, if that makes sense.

Right. Yeah. It's like most people don't do it like that. Most people do it 50% of

going to be putting in more.(...) Yeah. I think that's a really fair and practical way of looking at it, which I think a lot of people if they did do that, that would create so much less stress for them.(...) It's, it's like a catch 22, I think, because a lot of times the expectation is like, I think a lot of times people want both things, right? So they want that partner, but they want that partner to be in their income bracket or be able to live the lifestyle that they're living to. Right. And when that's not possible, it's like, well, something's got to give like, something's got to give. Yeah. Now in the situation with them, you know, I definitely can understand why they chose to not because his values were different. And if he is someone who judges those things, then he should probably not be with a woman who's a makeup artist. Like that's, that's never going to be.

What's weird to me though, is like, how did you never talk about that in the pods? Like you didn't find out that her career was what it was

until you got out.(...)

I was confused. Like, why would you even go there?

Like, right. It just didn't make sense. Like you already know that you're a first. I'm probably wasn't paying enough attention clearly neither with you.(...) But I do think I remember something where there was maybe a moment of consideration, but he really liked her, whatever. But so, so then you have to get over it, right? Then you have to move past it. Well, you either got to learn to get past your judgment or your cynicism of it or whatever, figure out why you believe that thing. She's clearly an exception, which means that there's other exceptions, right? So maybe you've got to rethink your own internal biases, but also too,(...) if that's not for you, let's not go in that direction.

Yeah. Like don't even start.(...)

Totally. So

I feel like as a 40 year old man, he should have known better.(...) He should have known his boundaries, his like what

his preferences

are by 40. You should know that.

Yeah. I mean, I think he was getting over the career part.(...) But then the day the money showed up when they were dating where then, you know, I think that she really walked into his life, oh, your life is different than mine.(...) And I don't think because his life looked like that, there was that expectation that he paid for everything. I think she already just has that expectation. And his life looked like a certain thing. But

I think that his expectation was that she would be an equal partner in his financial life,

in the way that it

looked like he was, didn't seem like he was willing to take it down a notch or anything like that. He's like, I'm really comfortable. I've worked really hard for what I have. And I have no intention on sacrificing it.(...) So okay, so again, that makes me question like, why the freak did you even propose, right? Like these are conversations that you should have had.

Yeah, already. Are these people talking about money in the pods? Because like, you probably know, you should be because they talk about

marriage.(...) All the

other things, but yeah, I would hope but I mean,(...) unless they're editing all the money conversations out because there are

I feel like didn't some I feel like some people have talked about money, but I might be blurring a lot of different episodes

together. That and now I'm like, watching a couple of different shows.

I haven't I watch Love is Blind like for six seasons us and they're like UK and like, I will not watch the non English ones.

They're way too much. They

look like way too much drama, like, oh, he cheated on me. I'm like, no, I'm not here for

all that.

Like, no, tender.

(...)

Well, you know, this is the thing, right? What if he's a great guy, but he literally just cannot afford to pay for every day for everything? What do we do?

I personally, I don't relate to her sentiment at all. Right? Like, I feel I have felt some kind of way when you're on a first date or second, third, like really in your dating history, and the guy is like, so should we go 50 50? And I'm like, the fuck, I will

not be seeing you again.(...)

It's way too early for a guy to be like, let's go 50 50. You are instantly telling me you do not want to be having a relationship with me.

(...)

So I and I have I've done that in my dating life. So that's a very real thing that I have. But simultaneously, like, you're now together, you're engaged.

(...)

Right? So at this point, that's a whole different

Well, that like, let's not face it off a show that they get engaged without seeing each other after like a week of like talking to each other through a walk.

Why they're I can see why it could happen. I can totally

see why it could happen. And then I can see why so many of it.

So many finally.

they were engaged at that point. And regardless of how long that relationship has been going, they were like, I feel like once you're living with someone, that is a whole different level of commitment.

(...)

And you are now in a partnership.(...) Right? And that changes things for me. So at that level, if you're still expecting your man to pay for everything, that's not a sentiment I have.(...)

Yeah. I'm trying to think like what in my mind feels appropriate, like dating feels like so long ago. I'm like, what does, what feels appropriate? I think for me, like if I'm really, really honest with myself, like not saying like the right thing or, but if I'm honest, I think if he doesn't at least have the intention to pay at least for the first date and, and the first sort of like all the things that we're doing, right? Maybe it's like a cab, maybe it's like the whatever, right? The first set of things.

(...)

Like even if I offer to pay and I end up paying for some element, because sometimes I'll just like, I don't know, I'll grab

the thing. Oh, get the

drinks. I'll get the drinks or whatever, right?(...) And sometimes I'll do it without him even knowing that I'm doing it, right? Almost like a, I want to get some part of this too. Because like, I personally get uncomfortable when too much is paid for me. I don't like it.

(...)

So,(...) so I like the gesture. I like the intent. I like the idea that he's ready to do it. Do I need it? Do I require it? No, but I'm watching for sure. I'm observing that you're doing that. I don't, I can't recall. I'm sure I've been in this situation, but I can't recall ever being on a first date where he's like actively said out loud with his mouth.

(...)

I've been on those dates. I

think I would be like, you got lucky. Okay.(...) Cool. Like I would do it, but I'd be like,

okay. I've had a guy want to split fucking coffee.

(...)

What? I'm

like, I'm about to punch you through your face right

now. Split coffee. Like two, you got two coffees.

Coffee? Yeah.(...) Yeah.(...) Yeah.

I'm sorry. Even if it's like a $7, like, I don't know. Fancy loud saying. Laughter and everything. Yes.

(...) Yes.

Okay. See,(...) if, okay. If we're on that in that place, don't go on a date. Like don't go on a date. Yeah. Like

what's going on with your finances that you cannot afford my $5 coffee.

Yeah. Cause then we might need to focus on getting the finances in order first before

looking for the... You shouldn't be dating. You shouldn't be dating. Yeah. But I do think that there are a lot of guys these days that feel slighted, that feel like some kind of way about like, man, why do I always have to pay for these dates? Like they're coming with a lot of energy.

Oh yeah. And it's... They are feeling a way about this these days. Right. And they don't understand why this is still a thing because the world has changed in so many other ways where women are able to do so many other things. And

like, I think that the struggle for them is, but this woman is financially capable.

Like she makes more money than me. Right. I just don't want to watch you.

Which is sometimes the truth.

(...)

And so why then does she still expect me to pay for stuff?(...) And it's not about the paying for the stuff.

It's really about

the energy underneath it. And again, I truly believe that as feminine energy, when we are most in our feminine, we are not having to focus on the finances, the providing and the taking care of myself.(...) I can take care of myself. I am completely capable of doing that.(...) But if you, if as a man, you want me to be softer, gentler and like more surrendered,(...) the easiest way to do that is to be in his masculine energy.

I would have to agree with you on that. I think that when that piece is not there and there's distress in the relationship around that piece, so not the woman providing more financially and them being very comfortable financially. Because I think the discomfort financially adds a lot more of the layers. Of course. So not like we're coasting along, we're good. Maybe, you know, I would like for him to be more involved or more, you know, contributing more, but we got this and we're good. But in situations where there is a little bit of a relational, you know, like stress around money and the woman is not feeling like the man is providing in that way. I think it becomes very difficult for that woman to fall into that nurturing energy to sit in that feminine energy. And I think there's often a lack of understanding on the man's part of why that can happen.(...) Yeah.

(...)

And simultaneously, I feel like so many women are in this like mode of wanting to be independent. Like I take care of me. I'm good. I'm going to do what I got to do.(...) And that energy, even if the man is able to provide,(...) she cannot, if she's constantly in her mode of doing her, is going to be really hard for her to surrender. Because she is so much in her masculine energy of surviving and providing for herself.

(...)

So I think it also,(...) they're going back to why so many relationships struggle with finances. It's like we as a culture and society are shifting the way we do money and the way we do finances and who provides and who makes money. And with like,(...) I'm writing a book on this.(...) It is...

is like the since the feminist revolution,

(...)

the fact that women have been able to be more in the workplace and more and more are honestly like progressing far beyond men in many capacities, it's getting harder and harder for the masculine or the men to be in their masculine and women are like getting more and more into the masculine energy.

(...)

So it's like there's this discord more because of the energies that we hold in our relationships regardless of who makes the money.

(...)

Yeah, I think that that is like the shift that's just happening with the way the world works now, I think even the roles that we used to occupy have shifted. People are working from home more. There's just a little, there's a difference in structure in the family structure. There's also more occurrence of blended families. And so there's a lot of different things that we have to now think about and consider that, like if you're working from home and neither of you are commuting and you have children, what does that mean for the household responsibilities around the children and childcare and financial decisions about like who pays for what with the kid? Like there's just different things that you have to now think about that I think the sort of thought around money or sort of the mindset is not,

(...)

I'm trying to figure out how to say it or to not articulate it, but like we are, it's like happening at two different rates. It's like things are shifting very, very quickly. Some people are still very holding onto this old school of thought and it's not matching this. And then some people are so far progressed beyond it that they're having a hard time sort of connecting with people who have a different school of thought. I think a lot of different things are happening, but I don't think that the conversation around money being difficult in relationships is ever gonna change. I think that

that's gonna be a just a,

and I think the more we accept that it's part of the conversation that needs to be had in order to have, we're talking about security and safety and protection in a relationship, having this conversation can provide that for you or being willing to have figure out what that dynamic looks like in your relationship can provide that for you. A lot of people also don't feel safe because they're not having these conversations and they have no, you know, feel like they're out of control with what's going on or they don't have a say or it's being managed by somebody else or they're so frustrated because they're doing all the management that they're, you know, so like that additional layer just of having that, of it being a conversation not being talked about is problematic in itself.

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah, so many layers.

(...)

We, I feel like, end lots of our podcast episodes with like, oh, it's a lot.

(...)

Because we're talking about some real shit.

Yeah, I mean, it

is-- This is real life.

It is real life and it is, you know, something that comes up so often. I have a couple right now that I'm working with where one, you know, they're engaged and he makes a lot more than she does, but she's very content in her job and doesn't really aspire to more. Like, she's good and he's having a really hard time with that, partly because of the ambition piece.(...) Because in his head, he equates, you know, sort of like growth to being ambitious and she's like, no, I'm like self nurturing and I'm making sure I'm good and I'm connected. And like for her, that's--

A different priority.

Totally different priorities, right? And she's like, because I have this job and the job allows flexibility, I'm able to take care of myself. And this means that I will be able to take care of children that we might have because I have the space for that and I'm preparing myself for that to be the best version of myself. And he is worried that she is not, you know, seeking more and wanting to climb the ladder and wanting to meet him where he's at. And culturally they're different. And he grew up in a culture where it was pushed, this, you know, external, you know, version of success was pushed. Where she comes from a culture where it was, you know, and a family where it was like, just be happy. Like, fuck all that other stuff. Like, as long as you're happy, money ain't gonna make you happy. And she's really very much about that mind. And so watching, you know, them have to navigate this and thankfully we're doing it pre-marriage,(...) but watching them navigate this conversation is so uncomfortable for the two of them. It's so, so uncomfortable, but like it's a must

have. They definitely need to have this conversation at length before getting married.

Exactly, because this is not just about money, it's about lifestyle, it's about values, it's about desires, it's about quality of life, not just, you know, the monetary value that you're assigning. And I think another thing that people don't really,(...) you know, get very clear on is what number is enough? What type of life is enough, right? I have a friend who is, you know, kind of has set herself up for retirement and so on. And she is a single parent and she's done pretty well for herself and she set herself up. But she's looking at it from a, I'm gonna be alone and single and my kid is already set up and I only gotta take care of myself perspective. So what she's willing to live on is a very nominal, minimal amount. She's thinking, you know, like she has a property so she doesn't have to worry about that. And she's like, okay, well, I'll travel, I'll, you know, I don't need much more. That's not gonna fly for somebody else or that can't work if you're a couple. That's not gonna work

once she's in a, if she wants to ever be in a relationship, that may need to change.

That might need to change. Or maybe he'll come with his own set of money and then they'll work it out accordingly.(...) But you know, like what works for you now might not work forever, what's real for you now might, but that's the way she's chosen to set herself up.

Yeah, yeah. And to your, the first couple that you were talking about with the,(...) she's not working

(...)

or doesn't like have the same ambitions,

(...)

it's, they're young, are they young?

They're in the 20s.

Yeah, so. Well, late 20s and early 30s. I feel like that shifts at some point because if I look at myself in the 20s,

(...)

it's a very different picture than me today.

(...)

And like I used to run a free clinic,

(...)

a completely free

clinic. I used to work 80 hours a week for free.

Yeah, I remember you telling me this story.(...) Wild.

(...)

And to look at myself now and it wasn't like I never,

(...)

I didn't like have issues with charging money. So that was not the reason why I had a free clinic.(...) Although a lot of people that were attracted to either volunteer or work within it or even come to it had that dynamic of like, I don't like the mindset was different.

(...)

And so externally,(...) and even when I met my ex-husband, I had a free clinic. So I didn't make any money.

(...)

And it was okay for the time of life that we

were in.

(...)

But very quickly that shifted.(...) And when I started looking at like, oh, what does it mean for us to be in a relationship? How are we making this work? We wanna buy a house eventually. Like what are we gonna need to do? And then looking at him, and this should have been the initial red flag, but looking at him and being like, wait, so you have all these, he had the same dreams as me, but he never had a clear definition of how to get

to that.

(...)

And

yeah, and it was like, he's a dreamer. So, and he's still to this day a dreamer. He's constantly like, oh yeah, I'm gonna like have this big house and that and that.(...) Like there's no tangible, like this is not even a practical thing.

(...)

So I think, but part of being in that relationship really helped me to swing the other direction. And I went super into my masculine and like, I know what that feels like. And I wore it with grace for a period of time(...) until like burning myself out.

(...)

But it helped me to get to the place of like, actually I can create money whenever I feel like it. And it put that power back into my hands

(...)

to where I was like very comfortable taking care of him and our mortgage and all the things.

(...)

But it just wasn't what I wanted to keep doing for the rest of my life.

(...)

But to me, like, I feel like we sometimes think a certain way where we're taught to like not worry about money or like money is not your happiness. Or I think I grew up with some of that, even though my parents were super into working,

(...)

like super into accumulating and saving everything they made.(...) But they also like that hard work ethic and the like, you can create what you wanna create. Those were lessons I still needed to learn.

(...)

And

so for this woman, she may get into her thirties and be like, actually that doesn't work anymore. And I have a different,(...) I wanna do something different.

And she'll-- Okay, maybe. I think it goes the other way too, where people go super hard when they're younger and then slow down when they're older. Like I was the complete opposite where I went all the way hard when I was in my twenties. Like, this is the time I'm single, I will climb as far as high as I can. That's how I became a vice president. Like I was like, I'm doing career and that's what I did. And I could not even imagine making that choice now.

I would not

want to make that choice. I don't care what figure or salary came with it. Like that's just not how I would choose to procure my money, right? Like if that's the choice that I had to make again, I would absolutely not do it. Not in that way, not at that rate, not at that pace. It was overwhelming and it was too much, but I did it. You know what I mean? I did it. And then now like I have a completely different relationship. It doesn't mean that I don't have goals or I don't have desires. I just don't want to do it in that way and refuse to--

To sacrifice your values right now to--

Exactly. And you know, the values definitely were,(...) they were different but the same. I'm still just as ambitious. I just know that I have more choices now and I know what my boundaries are and I know what I can sacrifice and what I can't. I also know that ambition is,(...) there's a continuum. It's not one destination, right? Like so--

It is not, there's never a, I got there.

No.

(...)

Literally everybody who has gotten somewhere, they're like, okay, I thought I was gonna be good here. And then I'm like, oh, well, no.(...) This is really supposed to go.

I was listening to a boy, Grant Cardone, yesterday

who

I thought of you. But he was talking about when he was younger,(...) his idea was like, if I get to 100,000 a year(...) and some amount in the bank, I'm

good.(...)

And then he got to 100,000 a year and he was like, I wonder what it would be like for having 100,000 a month, right?(...) Like your desires might change, your energy around what you want to create can change. And for me, I think that it has, it's like,

(...)

I think of it as play. It's just, I wanna see what's possible in this universe.

and to your point,(...) can I do it differently this time than I did last time?

(...)

Can I not grind 80 hours a week

(...)

to make the financial means, but do it easier

(...)

and with more intentional, intentionality and more,(...) oh, I wanna spend time with my child.(...) I'm taking days off, that's a non-negotiable, right?

(...)

Yeah, it's an interesting thing because I think it goes, even that part goes both ways.

(...)

I think right now, personally, for me, I'm in a season where I'm really into my work, where I'm okay with it taking away time with my children. Also because I've now created an entire life where I can find a way to be creative around making, creating my own money with them in mind. But I do find that my focus is very much my business because there's still that personal challenge that for me is the ambition still alive, right? Like that is how I know that the ambition is still there. And again, it's not assigned to a particular number or, and listen, Ty doesn't even have to be along for this ride. It's really not about anybody else but me.(...) And it was then too, when I was on my,

(...)

on the corporate side of things, yes, it was fashion, but it was still corporate, right? Like there's still a ladder, very much so. And you still, and I was the minority of the minority. Like there weren't no Indian girls in fashion at that time. Not in luxury fashion, it was very, very hard.

(...)

And so it was still,(...) it was just the ambition had to be directed differently.(...) So,(...) I know we're talking not so much about ambition but more about finances, but that piece of it

(...)

is tied to the finances. You know what I mean? It's tied in that, like, I wanna see what I can create in this new iteration of my life. And I'm very ambitious around it,

(...)

but it's not because, you know, I don't believe that things are gonna get provided for if I don't, or, you know, like, it's because I wanna see what's possible for me still in this new iteration of my life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,(...)

yeah.(...) I think that's what, it's a very similar attitude to where I'm at in this stage of life, is this like,

too impossible. So, you know, I think the problem would be if your partner

(...)

was not supportive of that, right? So that's where then you start to then have

that extra layer of-- Oh yeah, total, like, oh gosh, if you were like, oh, I'm going to do this work thing for a week and your partner is like, what the, like, no, you're not, that wouldn't be more frictional. And it seems like, on the surface, it seems like it's about money, but underneath it, it's maybe not about that, right? It's not about like, oh, I'm gonna make more money if I do this thing, but this is just like something that I want to be

doing. Yeah, it's fulfilling for me, or it's something that will, you know, allow me to grow in this way, or whatever it is. So, you know, I think, again, I think there's space for both partners, because to me, that's nurturing, right? That's the man being in a nurturing position where he's able to support and nurture your ability to grow, right? So I think that there's space for both of us to be in both energies at different amounts in different times, seasons of our lives, right? Like--

Yeah, we're not like stuck in a mode, but we don't always have to be feminine.

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There's more nuance to it.

Or we don't always have to be the provider, or always be the receiver, or always be 50-50, or there's just so much space, but it really boils down to what your expectations are, what you're talking about, whether you're talking about these things, and, you know, really what your values are, right? And whether those things are aligned, because I think there's always a way to get to some kind of harmony, right? Maybe not a 50-50, maybe, but not, it's not gonna be equilibrium necessarily, but I think that there's always a way to get to a place where, okay, maybe right now in this season, I'm providing more financially, or I am managing more of the finances, or I'm setting and working towards the goals. But again, I think there's a way for you to compensate on the other side. Maybe I don't have to ever think about groceries. I don't ever have to think about, you know, the house getting cleaned. I don't ever have to think about who's picking up my kids from school. I don't ever have to think about who's paying for all of these different people, like this person and that person, or, you know, signing this paper for that school trip, whatever, like, that alleviates a lot of things off of, you know, one person's shoulder, or if it's like, you know, you're handling your sick elderly parents, and so I am now handling, you know, the household finances. I think there's a lot of room for a lot of different iterations of partnership in that.

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But people who get really stuck in that one sort of like--

It has

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