All your questions answered in this Q&A session about exhaustion and burnout, what to do when your congregation is tired and lacking energy, pastoral identity, and preaching and leading when people are in conflict and it is an election year.

Questions that listeners asked include:

* Q1: “I’m burned out and exhausted; is it time to call it quits?”

* Q2: “Help: my congregation is tired and lacking energy, what can we do to fix it?”

* Q3: “If I'm not preaching and teaching and doing everything, then who am I as a pastor? If I’m not at the center of things I don’t feel like I’m doing my job.”

*Q4: “What do I do when people in my congregation are at odds with one another, and with me? This is an election year when American society seems more divided than ever. How do I lead in this environment?”

Video Mentioned:

Burned out and Overwhelmed? Why this is more normal than you think: https://youtu.be/F_NuWL_xQg0

Terri Elton: Hello everyone, I'm Terri Elton.

Dwight Zscheile: I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Alicia Granholm: And I'm Alicia Granholm. Welcome to the Pivot podcast. If you are new here, this is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world.

Dwight Zscheile: Today's episode will be a Q&A session. We'll give insight into questions frequently asked of us and our team at Luther Seminary's Faith+ Lead that have come from participants in Faith+ Lead offerings, and from our engagement with leaders in a variety of contexts around the church. So let's jump in.

Alicia Granholm: All right. Question one I'm burned out and exhausted. Is it time to call it quits? Dwight and Terri.

Terri Elton: Yes, to the first part. First of all, I just want to say this is a real question. And I think this question was real before the pandemic and then the pandemic just accelerated this. And I will say, I've asked this more than once, um, I want to speak. I want to be the first to just offer an answer through a personal story. So I have a little church gig on the side in addition to my being at seminary. So I'm a pastor, and I get how tiring it is and how you got to be on all the time. And I used to think that if I could just manage my calendar better, that would be the magic bullet. And really what came to me, was starting to come to me before the pandemic, but really after was like, this is actually a spiritual issue. And here's what I mean by that. I was pouring out, right. A lot of. And I was managing conflict as a leader, as a as a spiritual leader, like walking with people in the hard times. And I wasn't filling my own cup. I wasn't taking time for me. I'm a mom. I'm a spouse. I'm a I care for my parents in various ways, and I wasn't doing my own work in that area or taking time for that or prioritizing, I guess, is what I would say. I felt like it was a luxury. And during the pandemic, when we all shut down and I wasn't commuting and I wasn't, I really said I got to get some practices in place. And I would say for me, the biggest challenge coming back into all this stuff has been keeping those practices in my life and letting them when I'm feeling burnt out or exhausted or it's like the time to quit, I'm like, huh, funny thing, I haven't been doing those practices, so I just, I offer that. I don't think that's everybody's answer. I think there are, it's way more complicated than that. But that was a really turn for me to say. I think this is first and foremost a spiritual issue. And are you feeding that?

Dwight Zscheile: You know, Terri, that reminds me of something that our former colleague Pat Kiefert, who taught systematic theology here at Luther for many years. He and his organization, Church Innovations Institute, in their work with pastors around the world in a lot of different contexts. 85% of the pastors that they worked with over the years, for many years, had no functioning spiritual practices in their own lives. In other words, if they were reading the Bible is because they were preparing for a sermon, or if they were praying, they were praying at a bedside or something like that. And so I just want to name, um, how deep of a challenge this is. And, and so if you, if you the listener are, are feeling that maybe even feeling some shame about that. Um, you're not alone. I mean, this is it's a deep challenge and partly, you know, this question that you're asking, Alicia, is has to do with, I think the acceleration that's going on in how life is lived in Western societies and the way in which time functions differently and so much more is crammed in the way technology plays into that. And so, so taking the time to do spiritual practices is, um, can feel like it's the first thing to get squeezed out of the day. Um, particularly when you're trying to sustain a model of church with fewer volunteer resources, maybe a smaller staff if you have a staff in your context. And so it's easy for more and more just to fall on one's own shoulders.

Alicia Granholm: I was thinking too about early in the pandemic, along with, um, yes, the need obviously to continue to either continue in, you know, our own spiritual practices that are life giving or find new ones because it's a new and different season. And so what we've done historically in our relationship with God, we might find that, gosh, I'm still doing that, but I just am so dry spiritually. Well, maybe it's time for a different spiritual practice. And there's there's so many really that that we can, um, engage, that we can find life giving. And I remember another thing, too, that I, that we saw happening, in the summer of 2020, um, that I think fits with this question as well, because, we did see a lot of people leaving ministry that summer. And one of the things that became apparent to me was that, because people were invited to literally do ministry differently, there was this, and their identity was really tied up in what they were doing and not necessarily why they were doing it and why they had been called into ministry. That when the attachment is to the thing that we do and not why we're doing it, it's a lot easier than when things change, because they always do. Uh, nothing is constant except change. Um, is that when our identity is tied up in what we're doing? It's so much easier for us to get burned out and overwhelmed, um, because we're not rooted in our why, and and maybe we weren't to begin with, and that's okay. Um, but I think a lot of times when we do make space to step back and really reevaluate, okay. Is it. Am I still called to this? And if so, and I can, you know, answer yes. And that might be after a week of a break or a Sabbath, um, or a sabbatical. Um, then great. How can I do that moving forward? And maybe we realize no, actually, I'm being called into a new season and being called to do something different, and so maybe it is time to look for something else. But I think really getting back to our actual why, it can help inform whether or not we should lean into it or are being called to a new assignment.

Dwight Zscheile: I wonder if I can just connect that. I think it's so helpful to, um, thinking about the why for church, right? And I think often the personal burnout that leaders experience has to do with trying to sustain a particular model of church that isn't itself clear on the why. You know, why are we what are we doing these things for? And so many activities in churches and programs may have developed over the years that at one point might have meaningfully connected people to God, each other, and their neighbors. But they don't do that anymore. And yet we still feel like we can't give them up or we need to keep them going. There's very little energy in them. Um, and so this is just a moment when I think the churches that thrive are going to be clear about their why. And the foundation of that has got to be following Jesus, discipleship, making disciples, helping people live as disciples of Jesus in a cultural context, in society that makes that difficult, that doesn't support that and distracts us from that in all kinds of ways and thwarts that in all kinds of ways. And so that intentionality that you're describing with personal vocation, then, is an opportunity to help a community also discern or clarify its own why and really, ultimately that's about why the gospel, right? Why Jesus not just why the institutional church.

Alicia Granholm: Exactly. Yeah.

Terri Elton: I just want to it's really easy for us to, to take this out of a context and people's story and make it sound like, yeah, just do this and it'll be taken care of. It's not ever that simple. And so part of, I guess, what I would like listeners to know is if you're feeling that, reach out to somebody. I started doing spiritual direction luckily right before the pandemic. And then my daughter was diagnosed with breast cancer, and boy, was I glad I had somebody that was like, you know, I had other tools that I needed to do as well. But I think there may be a season, there may be something that's going on in your congregation or ministry that is making this super hard. And and who can you reach out to to help get you perspective, help find the resources? Because my sense is this: we wait too long to ask, and then we're over the hump of the burnout or or that. So the sooner we can reach out or even get some space to deal with whatever's in front of us, the more apt we are to be able to ask the why for ourselves and to say, hey, what the church needs is not me. That may be what is going on here, or I just have to have space to deal with what's going on. Those are real. But I also think there may just need to be processing and some resources to get you through.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah.

Dwight Zscheile: So those of you who have not listened to episode 50 of this Pivot podcast with Jorge Acevedo, that's another episode that digs into this very question, with some really rich discussion and insight.

Faith+Lead: Are you navigating the ever evolving wilderness of church and culture while you are not alone on this journey? Faith lead has walked alongside thousands of church leaders, drawing valuable lessons from the many challenges they have faced. Our upcoming video series, How to Take Your Next Faithful Step, draws on these insights from real life ministry. Whether you're grappling with issues like dwindling church participation, volunteer involvement, or maintaining congregational connection and activity, join Doctor Alicia Granholm, senior director at Faith lead, for an engaging four part video series. After each video, participate in an interactive Q&A where you can share your perspectives and connect with fellow ministry leaders, learners and volunteers, you'll explore the six essential theological commitments. Discover the five core tasks of ministry, and hear more about the four key pivots to navigate a faithful future in ministry. Are you ready to join this interactive experience? Sign up now to take part. Turn ministry hallenges into opportunities for growth, and connect with a community dedicated to taking their next faithful step to follow God into a hopeful future.

Terri Elton: All right. Are we ready for question two? All right. So: Help. My congregation is tired and lacking energy. What can I do to fix it? Have you heard that one?

Alicia Granholm: Yes.

Dwight Zscheile: So often, so often, you know, and I think I want to just. I want to end with that second to last word in the question, which is fix. And so I think so often when we hear this, um, our impulse is to try to fix it. And I think, um, I think the, the tiredness and lack of energy is often actually a theological and spiritual challenge that can't be fixed. So it's it's not about how do we just sort of maybe restructure our committees or our meetings so that people are more energized and that may be good to do. Those fixes are always important. Um, but there's usually something deeper that's actually going on here. So I want to I want to think a little bit about where does the energy come from in your church's life? And I know, um, it's tempting for leaders to feel like they need to bring the energy to catalyze people to invest their time, talent and treasure in this voluntary association congregation to show up at programs to and worship and to, you know, serve on committees and ministries and all of that. And that also leads to burnout and exhaustion, right? Because that is a very heavy burden to carry. And I don't think it's one that God really wants from us. Um, rather than actually understanding that the energy in the church comes from the Holy Spirit. So let's if we can just theologically pause for a moment on that idea. Um, one of the ways to identify the Spirit's movement is in life giving energy that creates connections of love. That's how the Holy Spirit shows up so often. And, um, and so, so I'm always curious for congregations that are experiencing this tiredness and lack of energy. Where is the Holy Spirit at work in the life of your church? Um, how do you talk about that? How do you pay attention to that? How do you discuss it? How do you reflect on it together as a community? The congregation that my wife and I served in Saint Paul for, for many years. Um, we helped over the course of these many years, that congregation began to, to get comfortable with naming that. And so people would use that language, they would say, gosh, it it feels like the spirit is moving in this ministry in this time. And what we did was, um, we also put a bunch of ministries on sabbatical or hiatus that didn't seem to have a lot of life giving energy in them where people were tired. And we said, you know what? Let's just not have that committee meet for a while and see if we miss it. And let's lean into where people are feeling energy and connection. And, um, rather than trying to sustain these other things.

Alicia Granholm: You know, I can't help but think about, um, as a mom of two young boys, they're almost seven and almost four. And, um, you know, if I ask them to do something that they're just. They don't have to hate it. They just don't even like it. They're instantly tired, and they will fall on the floor and suddenly their legs don't work. They cannot walk. They cannot move. They're like, I, I'm too tired. They're literally. And that is the exact words coming out of their mouth. They're like, oh, I'm just so tired. And then you mentioned donuts or like their favorite podcast or, you know, if they want to watch Bluey or something else and suddenly they are revived. It's like they have come back from the dead. And so, you know, I do think just like practically, what does it look like for, um, for our congregations and our people to be tired is is very much, uh, what it looks like for when we ask children to do things they just don't want to do, or they don't find life giving in the way that they might not be opposed to it. It just doesn't bring them energy and life. And so, yes, they're going to be tired and they're not going to have time for it. Um, but when we when we are discerning together what the Holy Spirit is up to, there will be those bright spots and those places where. Oh, huh. Maybe this is something this Holy Spirit is doing within us, because suddenly there is energy there. And it really is as if, you know, they come back to life. Um, and it's not, you know, one of the, one of the, the things that we've seen with, um, churches, you know, especially coming into the pandemic and, um, not, you know, even coming out of it is that people were so busy. And so that absolutely has fed into the tiredness and the exhaustion. Um, and, um, we're seeing that a lot of congregations are starting to pick up things that had been dropped during the pandemic, and that there's a bit of a return to the pace at which things were before. And, um, and, you know, we just know that people are tired. We can't sustain that. We can't sustain all the programs and ministries in the way that our congregations once could. Um, but there is life to be had there, and there is hope and energy still. And, um, I just I appreciate Dwight, just the, um, examples of ways that we can kind of refine that: the life giving things within our congregations again.

Terri Elton: I know for me, when I don't have energy, it's one I'm just doing too many things be I'm doing things that aren't in my gift set or don't bring me passion. Or maybe I'm fighting. Like maybe I love it, but I'm fighting, something like that. So part of what I wonder, and this kind of is like, you can't fix it really easily, but you can be curious, right? So so you take a hiatus, you you lean back and then you say, which of the way why is the source of the energy not there? Right. It's because we're trying to do Sunday school and there's no kids or there's very few or they don't want Sunday school. Why are we trying to do Sunday school? Right? Um, but boy, we have a really active group of young senior adults that really are energetic and have time and want to do some things together and want to serve in the community. What if we leaned into that? So I think part of it is the opportunity to say, just like in our own lives, when we're tired and lacking of energy, what is that about? Right? Maybe you do have to teach your kids to do certain things, but there's other things you're like, if you hate swimming lessons, let's just stop doing swimming lessons right? And I think we think there's a model of church we have to do. And I think there's so much permission to say, let's quit doing it. I had a conversation with a bishop this week that said, we're trying to get our smaller congregations to do worship and one other thing, what's one other passion area you have? And maybe that's enough. And I just I liked that freedom that came with. And he said, what's funny is they end up doing more usually, but it's the reframing of the conversation that has been helpful.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. So in this podcast series, we're talking about the pivot from kind of one model or one shapes fits all, one size fits all of church to a mixed ecology of lots of different ways to embody Christian community in our context today. And I think, Terri, that's a really great invitation for us if we've inherited a model of ministry that was really birthed in and designed for a different period of time, and I can't tell you how many of my students have studied, congregations that were post-World War Two, often first string suburban congregations. And there's such a common narrative of so many of these churches in so many places where they they built the big Sunday School wing and all of that. And it's mostly empty now. And the congregation is aging, and they still have this expectation it needs to look like it did. Um, so we want to encourage you to seek God's permission and God's leading to release what isn't actually meaningfully connecting with people and to lean into what is, even if that might look very different than what people have experienced before or have expected in terms of how the church does its thing. And so so the energy of the Holy Spirit is, you know, abundant, right? Theologically, we believe that we experience that and is not constrained by boxes that we try to put God in. Right. This is one of the classic themes in the biblical literature, a form of idolatry, right, of trying to kind of manage and contain and, and box in God and so I just think the posture of curiosity of, you know, where are people feeling energy in their lives? And then if they're just generally exhausted all across their life because modern life in America and Western societies is just so crazily fast and overscheduled or whatever, whatever that looks like, then the great spiritual intervention in that, in following Jesus is to say, okay, well, how might we actually intentionally do things differently? And I'm really curious about, um, you know, some of the, the things like micro communities that are emerging across the landscape of the church in North America and other forms of church that are intentionally very simple. Not programmatic, very local with the neighborhoods that people aren't driving hours, you know, each week to, to and from church activities, not heavily institutionalized, but are actually cultivating really powerful, transformational relationships in the neighborhood with people and between people in God. So our next question. "So if I'm not preaching and teaching and doing everything, then who am I as a pastor? If I'm not at the center of things, I don't feel like I'm doing my job." That is something we hear and we know that many pastors struggle with. So what do we do about that?

Alicia Granholm: Well, Terri, I'm curious how you would answer this because you don't fit into into that box as a pastor.

Terri Elton: Speaking of boxes.

Alicia Granholm: Yes.

Terri Elton: And so here's a little story. I was actually just thinking that. Alicia, thanks for that little thing. Um, so I do online worship, and I'm mostly the host. I don't preach as much. I teach periodically, mostly online. And and so then I'm tending these relationships of people that are coming online. And so here's really funny. So that's my one little part that I'm supposed to do. And then I get a new member, working with a woman that's organizing, like the visits to shut ins and people that can't get out and for various reasons, um, health and otherwise. And she says, yeah, Bev is going to start visiting this person online. I'm wondering if you could, you know, give her some ideas. So like, here's my one little caregiver, that caregiving relationship I'm supposed to do. And I thought, this is awesome. We now have two people from the congregation that are both retired, have time, and they're hanging out with Judy, and they're checking in and I'm like, okay, here's my little thing. So we have this little conversation. And, and I had an opportunity, um, with somebody else to do something around Christmas and to empower somebody else. And, and I, I called my husband as I was driving home that day, and I said, this was one of the best parts of my week, empowering people that feel shut off to be connected to a community by people showing up in their lives. And then and then relationally, they're showing up differently online and caring for the other people that are online. And so it's like a it's it's like a wave, right? One affects another. And what I love is I have a colleague who totally embraces that. She is not worried about her being seen as the pastor, best preacher, best teacher, best person overseeing it. It's really been an empowering model of ministry. And this congregation gets it and they're equipping others to do it. And so part of the thing for me is I get the initial thing: Hey, I went to seminary. I want to do this. I have gifts in this. But I want to say, when you step back and start empowering other people, even if it feels awkward, the ripple effect and the more impact that that can have is just so affirming. And I don't need to be in the limelight. I kind of like being in the background. And so part of what's fun is to say they don't even know that these three people empowered that person, but that person is the one getting the credit or being seen. So I think this is a challenge for the way we've trained leaders. But living into this shift is so exciting and I love when now they're telling us, hey, we've been doing these ministry on the side and we just thought we maybe should inform you pastors. I'm like, oh, that's nice, thank you. Thanks. You know.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah.

Terri Elton: So I just would wonder, have you guys seen other models of how this has happened either in, in, in the conversations you've had with people or the ministries you've been a part of?

Alicia Granholm: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I also can't help but have, you know, the Scripture passage in Ephesians where really the role that of, of pastor and teacher is to equip the body of Christ right, into fullness and maturity in Christ. And so, um. That's what we're called to do. And, um, and I just, I there was a pastor that, a priest, an Episcopal priest that Dwight and I had the privilege of working with, um, last year, and I can I remember the first time, uh, that we met him and very much this posture of. Okay, well, but if I'm not doing all the things, then, like, what am I supposed to do? I don't I don't really get it. Really.

Dwight Zscheile: Who am I?

Alicia Granholm: At the end of the day, that's the question. Yeah. Well, who am I then? You know, especially I've given my life to this. I don't, this feels like you're asking me to literally become somebody else who I, I don't feel like God's called me to become that person. So, um, you know, fast forward eight, nine months later, and I just remember the joy of John saying, um, it has been so life giving to be able to empower other people in my congregation to try new things and to lead in ways that they've never led before. And now I don't actually even know all the things that happen at my church. And I'm not leading everything. And, um, and while for some people, it's going to take longer than 8 or 9 months to, to be able to reimagine their calling and how maybe they right, were equipped to, to do all the things because, uh, depending on where you went to seminary, you were equipped to do all the things. And that's what you your pastoral imagination was shaped in that way. And so to do anything but that feels, um, you know, contradictory to, to how you're trained and, and, um, how you've imagined pastoral ministry. Um, but we've seen so many people really lean into that, their own personal transformation of seeing their calling as even more full of a fuller sense of calling than simply preaching and teaching and doing all the things, but actually equipping other people to do it and empowering them to do it, and seeing the life, um, the, the fullness of life that they're stepping into is so refreshing and encouraging for pastors when they are able to just give up something, you know, it doesn't have to be all the things, um, but to allow other people to step into that, into their calling in Christ's church, um, is usually way more life giving than not.

Dwight Zscheile: When it's an invitation for pastors to reflect on what does this community really need me to do? So if there's no equipping taking place, if there's no one who's really functioning as a, uh, a cultivator of theological interpretation, right, of helping the community make Christian meaning out of their experience. Um, you know, then it's unlikely those things are going to happen. So there are some very particular things. And if you have the blessing of a theological education and, and you're, have been able to go deep into the tradition that is such an essential thing to open up and share with people, not as someone who has a monopoly on it, but really is someone who's there as as a steward of it. Um, as Jesus talks about in, in Matthew's gospel of, you know, the scribe kind of pulling out treasures, new and old, right, out of the tradition. And so, so there's some really key things to do. And Eugene Peterson published a book many years ago, a fun book called The Unnecessary Pastor. And I remember reading that in seminary and trying to imagine, like, what is he talking about? But but really, it's a book about, um, you know, how does the pastor primarily be a person of prayer and spiritual leadership and then really kind of giving away ministry in all the different ways that it can be given away with appropriate equipping, accountability, things like that, and support, encouragement. Um, but to be super clear and I think the other side to that, of course, is that for most pastors, that's not a conversation they can have by themselves. It's also a conversation with the congregation because their expectations then that need to be renegotiated. So if you say, I'm not going to come to any committee meetings or I'm not going to be at this, that or the other, um, and the tradition has been the pastor's there and at the center of it, then you're going to disappoint expectations. And that needs to be handled, you know, in a gentle way, a careful way. Um, so that, people aren't, well, first of all, so you don't lose influence, so you don't lose leadership. And people just say, well, what are you doing? We're not going to we don't want you as our pastor anymore. We're going to stop paying you. We're going to fire you. So, so, so that that art of disappointing expectations at a rate that people can stand, which Ron Heifetz talks about, is really important for this kind of journey. How do you have those good conversations around, first of all, biblically, theologically, as the body of Christ, we have many gifts. And leaders are, leaders with different gifts, are animated by God, by the spirit to bring the whole body to maturity. And and that's just not the model from Christendom that the church has inherited. And we need to reclaim, I think, those biblical models much more.

Alicia Granholm: Well, and I think as, um, really the church culture became what it, what it has been and what we're kind of, um, moving out of. But you were started, right? Like, now you have a building, you have to manage, you have a budget, you have to manage. You were called to be an accountant, a building manager, like all the things. And, for the majority, and by majority, I mean the vast majority of people, those are not actually in your gift mix anyway. And that that isn't naturally what you're gifted to do. Sure, there may be a few people, but but that isn't what God necessarily called called most pastors to do to wear, you know, five different hats. And so, I don't know, personally, I love being able to, to find people who are better than me at doing things and then equipping and empowering them to do it, because now everybody benefits. It's a win win. Um, it's not something I'm particularly gifted at, but somebody else is, and they're going to be able to do with it much more so than I can. Um, and everybody wins when that happens.

Terri Elton: You brought up adaptive leadership, and I was thinking about being on the dance floor and being on the balcony. And I think we have often imagined our role is to be on the dance floor, doing all these things of a community of discipleship when I and I, when I wonder if this time in place, we're being called to more often get up on the balcony and say, how is this being a culture of discipleship, a community, cultivating a spiritual community that's empowering each other, living out the gifts? Um, wondering what does it mean to make spiritual meaning of our lives through the gospel of Jesus Christ? And I think, yeah, that happens through preaching and teaching and care. But we have so reduced it to I'm teaching Bible studies on Tuesday night rather than, hey, getting up on the balcony and say, how might we do this together? And being a someone that's leading a culture of that, it's embedding that in the DNA. And so I want to encourage people to say, look at your balcony time versus your dance floor time, and what's the right balance for that congregation in that time and place, and make sure there's some mix of that.

Alicia Granholm: Okay. Well, question number four. "What do I do when people in my congregation are at odds with one another and with me? This is an election year when American society seems more divided than ever. How on earth do I lead in this environment?"

Dwight Zscheile: Hmm.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. Thoughts?

Dwight Zscheile: This is the the question for 2024. I think so many of us are facing. Um, so a couple just observations I would make. First is that, um, you know, politics is the new religion in America. So politics and political identities and tribalism is functioning religiously. It has the same, um, purpose that religion has in people's lives as a way of identity forming identity, meaning, um, all kinds of things around purity and, you know, belonging and shame and, you know, righteousness, like so many of those religious impulses are being worked out in the political sphere rather than the actual religious sphere. And so so it's important to name that, like we're dealing with a cultural phenomenon as religion has receded in American society, in American culture, it's being replaced by politics, among other things, with a kind of fervor and a kind of ultimate, you know, meaning, ultimate concern, to use politics, old phrase, right for faith. Like it is a matter of more important faith than actual Christian faith. Um, so often, I mean, you know, a lot of, you know, a huge number of people who describe themselves as evangelicals, for instance, just never go to church. But it's just kind of this generic, you know, identity, cultural identity, political identity. So, um, so that being the case, like, this is a bigger challenge than we might recognize it to be, because what you're actually, um, negotiating with or addressing is very deep questions of ultimate meaning and identity that are not easily given up or, um, or, you know, reconciled, if you will. So that being said, the the invitation for us is to have a theological response and a practical response. And the theological response has to be that we understand the body of Christ as a community of unity without uniformity and difference, without division, that deep in what it means to be joined in Christ, is actually this coming together across all kinds of secondary creaturely or cultural identities. Um, because, you know, just think about Paul, because in Christ, you know, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, etc., Republican or Democrat, whatever we might say, liberal or conservative in today's world. In other words, those identities don't go away, but they're penultimate. So I think the places where this is most powerful or places where that primary Christian identity is not functioning as the organizing, animating identity of the local church. So there are other things that are filling that, um, and that makes it very hard. But we need to we actually need to go deeper into the gospel in this sense and be more theological and recognize how the Holy Spirit, throughout the biblical witness and throughout church history, breaks down walls and unites people without enforcing a kind of cultural, um or creaturely uniformity of where everyone has to think alike or be exactly the same in order to be joined in Christ.

Terri Elton: So one of the things, I think on the practical side, to pick up that part, I think in general we lack practices and experience to be in community across difference. I think of how many families no longer can just sit at a table and talk about difference, or stay in relationship, deep relationship across difference. I think of we have found our friends or our neighbors kind of going to more homogenous rather than, you know, kind of among difference. Right? And so I think one of the things that I would really encourage congregations that aren't in deep conflict to begin to hold conversations and develop some practices about what we what might we believe about certain things that we might differ on and, and introduce some practices around tables and listening to each other, telling stories, seeing the complexities in each other's lives. It's really easy, I think, to flatten people's understanding of each other and to say, oh, I know who you are. I think one of the the tensions that I see in communities that I've been a part of, if I know one part of your story and I think I know the whole thing. But when I sit down and talk with you, I realize you're way more complicated than that and way more richer than that one thing. And so telling stories and having practices to talk about ideas, topics that we might have difference on our muscles we can develop in. And I think congregations are one place I have hope that can do this more than others. If if we lean into this theological understanding and if we don't start in the middle of the hot topics, but we start off on like, what's your view of church and how has it been helpful and painful, right. Like there's all kinds of things we could start at, different things to just put ourselves in conversations, um, that could help us learn how to do this. What do you think, Alicia? I can't help but think back to. So I was trying to do the math in my head. Um. Well, it probably was about less than 20 years ago now, but closer to 20 than I can believe, actually. Uh, this is probably 18, 19 years ago or so, thereabouts, um, that I was asked to run for office and local office here in Minnesota. And I was working at a church at the time, and I wasn't interested for a number of reasons, but one one of the primary reasons that I said no was actually because as a pastor, I didn't want to limit the number of people that I could minister to and with. And I had zero interest in people knowing my political views, because I didn't want that to become a stumbling block for someone with whom we might not share the same political views. And frankly, I don't really care. Um, I want us to be able to come together, talk about Jesus, worship together and, and so to now I'm just so thinking about that. So. Okay. It was about 20 years ago now. Um, and a lot has changed. The three of us were in a conversation with Tripp Fuller earlier this week. And one of the things that Tripp brought up and I I'm just curious, um, what both of you think about this, but one of the things Tripp said was that if what he's finding is he's talking with, um, with pastors in different congregations, is that if, um, if pastors say something political or seemingly political, they'll lose half their church. If they stay silent, nobody new walks through their doors. Like, to your point, Dwight, that the before we want to have a conversation about Jesus, we want to know what your political views are like. Where do you stand? Because that's going to tell me a lot about whether I like you, your family, your church, your neighborhood, your community, all the things. Um, and so, you know, to me, that's in such stark contrast in 20 years ago, where, I mean, I didn't think anything of saying no because I didn't want to limit my sphere of influence as a as a pastor, because I want to be able to minister to whomever I don't. Your political views, yes, we all have them. I don't need to know them all, though, you know, and I don't need you to know mine for us to to be able to have a relationship, especially in relationship around Jesus. Um, so to me, the pendulum has swung very far. And so I'm, I'm curious what what the two of you thought when when Tripp shared that?

Dwight Zscheile: Well, what it brings to mind for me is, you know, something that happened, I think, in the American church in the 20th century as, um, there was more secularization in society. And, you know, so you think about coming out of the world wars. On the one hand, there was a lot of coming together after World War Two, and congregations people joined congregations and all kinds of voluntary associations and the church was, on one hand thriving institutionally. And a lot of that was really, I think, about civic and social and cultural connection. And so starting in the 60s, when a lot of churches went more into crisis, particularly those coming out of the mainline, I think the response was by many churches and pastors was in order to be relevant in society, we are going to adopt, you know, more explicit political, um, orientation. Right? So we're going to be more politically active activists. And again, there's political struggles that, you know, the church should engage. And certainly civil rights was one of those and all that. But part of the outgrowth of that was it was a solution for some churches to a larger identity crisis. Um, and, you know, both embracing political activism, both I think, in the on the left, particularly in the 60s and later, and then on the, on the right with the Moral Majority and the religious right starting in the 1980s. Um, and on to this day, um, where that, that vacuum, if you will, of that identity crisis for the church gets filled with politics. And then it's very easy for people to feel like, well, that's the purpose of what we're, that's the animating energy, again, that we're organized around. And so that being the case, um, I think this is a moment to actually do deeper thinking and praying and discerning and conversation together as the church around what does it mean to be church in, in this kind of society, in this moment? And you can't assume that we know that clearly, I think. Um, and for generations where the answer was, well, we're politically relevant or active, um, you don't need church for that anymore. So what you have is this strange thing of, where you have, you know, churches that have a primarily social and political identity and people who are actually really committed to following Jesus, just bailing out of institutional churches without leaving their faith in Christ because they don't feel like those structures are actually helping them do that in daily life. And and so so this it's an identity crisis. There are deep questions of ecclesiology, and these are being questions that are being asked on across the spectrum. Mainline, Evangelicals are having this conversation and some really interesting ways right now as well.

Terri Elton: So I was wondering, as you were talking about identity, one of the things that's been interesting in a variety of conversations, and many of them are with our seminarians, is: If I theologically believe everyone's a child of God. What does that mean? What does that mean to the person that has an extremely different political or religious view than I do? What does it mean to, um, to the person in my congregation that's been incarcerated? And when I preach. And I imagine he's going to be in the third row, I have to think about texts differently. I preached last year on Martin Luther King Weekend, and it's so happened that I'm talking about slavery, and I brought it into the sermon because I'm like, okay, I can't ignore it. It's in the text. It's the weekend around us, and it's the one weekend that somebody from our congregation who's married an African shows up. Which isn't always there. And I'm like and and their children and and I'm like, how are they hearing this text. Because it was his people that were enslaved that were taken from it. Like from his like I start thinking about all of these things. So I think about what if everyone's a beloved child of God and I don't know how to love all my neighbors that God has called me to love and to say out loud, there are some that I just gravitate towards, and there are others I struggle, right? And to begin to think through these differences in what God has called us to do, the vision of God's beloved kingdom, of God's beloved community, and how far I am from that today. And what are the places and what are the places we're called to face? Um, I mean, we're in Minneapolis, in Saint Paul, and those months after George Floyd's murders, murder and what it meant to be community and that it was so, so in my being. Right. Like, how do we not just gloss over the pain, but actually kind of move in to the uncomfortableness with regard to that and say, what does my faith actually call me to in this time? And both us, the collective us and the me, me as a person in this time and place. So part of what I think is, I got to quit generalizing. I got to quit saying it's your fault. I got to quit expecting government to fix it, or the church wide expression of or, you know, the whatever to make the declaration and everybody get in line. I got to make it mine. I got to live within the tensions that are whatever's in front of me. And I got to put one foot in front of the other and keep showing up, um, in, in some, in some vulnerable ways, but in some. God, this is your mission. This is your vision. How are we called in this time?

Dwight Zscheile: So a couple of things I'm hearing in this conversation. I just want to note, um, one is we have theological work to do with the church, right? Around what does it mean to follow Jesus? Um, both the left and the right, in American society right now are tending to operate with certain assumptions about human nature, whether it be a kind of left wing, progressive assumption coming out of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, that human nature is good, and we just need to, you know, actualize ourselves fully without any constraints or a kind of Nietzschean version of that on the right, a will to power version of it. Um, and I think to step into those debates and say, actually, you know, the Christian theological tradition would not agree that human nature is good. Actually, it's deeply flawed and and broken, and we need to be delivered from a power beyond us. And it's not going to be a strongman leader or some political cause. Whether on the left or the right. It's actually, a suffering servant savior on the cross. And so we so get more theological, I think, find the practices in your community that you can build on things that people are used to doing. Like Terri, you mentioned breaking bread together, having meals, right? And then finding ways to share stories. Right. And um, I'm thinking about there's a wonderful book by Amanda Ripley called High Conflict that has some stories of communities. In this case, it was a, um, a Jewish community, a congregation in New York City that was very progressive, pairing up with a conservative evangelical congregation in rural Michigan. And they actually did the a practice of pilgrimage where they went. Teams from each went and spent time and lived with each other and were hosted in each other's spaces. And it really messed with everyone involved because it really broke down. It broke down all the stereotypes. Um, you know, they're still who they are, and they got transformed. And so what are practices of pilgrimage, storytelling? Um, relocation. Right? In order to understand and then, um, let's blame less. Let's blame less. So there's a Covenant Church, Emanuel Covenant in Shoreview, Minnesota, that's, um, that's creating a whole thing called the Blame Less project. Right? Because we're so inclined to just blame each other. It's not blame never. But there are times to blame. But just the propensity just to blame each other is is really toxic and it's feeding a lot of toxicity. So, um, and, and then I think we have to have the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Terri Elton: I was I was just going to say and, and I think the other piece that I've heard in our thread through today is and make room for and be alert to where's the spirit moving among us? Where's the spirit asking us to lay stuff down? Where's the spirit inviting us to wonder and be creative. Where's the spirit calling us to rest and to lean into God's love and grace as opposed to our own doing?

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. We can't do it on our own. It's very evident that it is actually takes a lot of intentionality. Right? Because left to our own devices, well, we have a good glimpse right now of what that leads to. And it's not life giving to people. I mean, I just was on a call earlier today with a ministry leader in California, and we were just talking about how just it was almost as if when January 1st, 2024, uh, you know, the date turned, um, there was this collective posture of, like, leaning back and waiting because everyone knows that this is an election year and people are tired and we the, you know, the collective majority really would rather okay, we have to find a better way forward because this is not working. And I don't want to relive the last election in my community, with my family. Right. Um, I mean, families are torn apart and still, you know, are really struggling. And so, um, there has to be a better way, but it's it's not going to be in our own accord. I mean, the Holy Spirit has to has to be part of the work within us and within us collectively.

Terri Elton: So. Two things as you were saying, I, the difference for me about 2024 going into this election year is: In the last round of time. I've been really hopeful at different times that we'd figure it out and we haven't. Politically, right? Like I've been disappointed and disappointed and disappointed and I'm not going to put my hope there anymore. But it was also interesting, one of the practices, um, our colleague and I teaches Chris Dash, teaches at another seminary, and we were both kind of overwhelmed with some things during as we were going up to an election one of these past years, and we gathered a group of women and said, what's one thing we can do? And we gathered for half an hour, um, once a week and prayed together. We we had a text, the same text every week. We read that text together, and then we brought each other's concerns and we prayed for each other. And if there was one life giving practice that saved me through that period, it was finding some other people to lean in and to just invite the spirit. So one of the things I want to leave our listeners with is if you don't have some colleagues to gather, to pray, to support each other, to walk with in this, find some, even one. And now with our digital tools, we can do it online. We there's a whole variety of ways that we can do that. But I think each of these questions says lean into community. Don't separate from.

Dwight Zscheile: Absolutely. And so, you know, those of you who are out listening, if you have ideas for, um, things that you'd like us to address on the Pivot podcast, we would love to hear from you. Um, our email address is in the show notes, or you can just send an email to Faith lead at LutherSem. Edu. And we're going to be looking to make some offerings this year to really support ministry leaders who are trying to navigate this really kind of treacherous political season that we're in in our society. So stay tuned for that. Um, and thank you so much for joining us today. In our next episode. We're going to continue to explore the key pivots the church needs to make. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at FaithLead.org.