Exploring Bitcoin and the Journey of a Digital Nomad

The episode delves into the world of Bitcoin and digital nomads with Anja, the creator of Bitvocation.

Anja shares her journey as a digital nomad and Bitcoiner and provides valuable insights into Bitcoin adoption.

She discusses her efforts to educate women about Bitcoin, stressing the need to communicate in a way that resonates with them and provides practical solutions to their problems.

Anja also talks about her new project, Bitvocation, a Telegram bot that curates Bitcoin-only job openings, aiming to make job search more efficient for interested Bitcoiners.

Additionally, the host, Tali, also shares the story of her Bitcoin board game, HODL UP, and its success in making Bitcoin more accessible through play.

00:03 Introduction

00:26 The Importance of Personal Journey in Bitcoin Understanding

00:41 The Emotional Connection to Bitcoin

01:05 The Power of Storytelling in Bitcoin Adoption

01:48 The Controversial Take on Bitcoin Adoption

02:28 Personal Bitcoin Journey and Realization

03:02 The Shift from Saving to Investing

03:32 The Journey to Bitcoin Investment

04:59 The Digital Nomad Life

05:16 The Financial Awakening

05:58 The Transition to Bitcoin

08:19 The Bitcoin Career Transition

09:29 The Bitvocation Project

11:29 The Bitcoin Education Initiative

15:46 The Bitcoin Board Game

19:49 The Bitcoin Education Challenge

22:58 The Bitcoin Community Outreach

25:19 The Bitcoin Education for Women

27:00 The Bitcoin Journey for Women

28:32 The Bitcoin Education for Different Age Groups

29:24 The Bitcoin Education for Different Cultures

30:14 The Bitcoin Education for Different Professions

47:22 Conclusion

Anja's contact info:

https://t.me/bitvocationfeed

@connecteconomy

***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Visit https://www.meetup.com/womensbitcoinreadingclubwithorangehatter

Please email questions/comments to tali@orangehatter.com

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

Mentioned in this episode:

Aleia Free Market Kids Sponsorship FULL

Get your HODL UP ("The best bitcoin game ever!") at www.freemarketkids.com.

Every niche or target group has a certain language or

2

certain challenges that if just one of

them understands how Bitcoin fixes this,

3

they can convey this to their people.

4

Tali: Hey, everybody.

5

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

6

Anja: I'm a nomad.

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Tali: Got it.

8

Okay.

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I, I ask a lot of personal questions.

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Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: I think, I think it's the personal

journey that is the most interesting.

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And I, there are so many podcasts

out there that are already teaching

13

the how of Bitcoin, the technology of

Bitcoin and the politics of Bitcoin.

14

But I think for women, and you

probably have seen this as well,

15

talking to women, we need to know the

emotional why, like, why should I care?

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I've already got a lot

of things on my plate.

17

Why should I redirect my attention?

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And give you the time of the day to learn

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Anja: yeah, that's what you mentioned,

that's what you mentioned in your article,

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also.

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Tali: Mm hmm.

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Anja: I do agree, but I also

think it's the same for men, I

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think, as humans, we like stories.

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You know, maybe men don't notice so much

But we are all influenced by advertisement

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or you know, like super bowl ads or

whatever everybody uses stories, you

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know but I think because bitcoin is a

technology it just drew in Techies in the

27

beginning, you know, so I have a feeling

That, , it's built by techies, but the

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adoption happens through storytelling

and solutions, communicating, conveying

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solutions, you know, so I actually,

okay, it is a controversial take.

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I actually think that

orange peeling doesn't work.

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, Because I believe that we,

we are all only motivated to.

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learn about something when we

have a problem that needs fixing.

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Until we have a problem,

why would we, I mean, we only

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have so much time in our day.

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Why would we learn about

something or invest time in

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something that has no relevance?

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And that's actually, I don't know

about you, but I, in most, , stories

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that I hear from Bitcoiners

is what they all say the same.

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Oh, I heard about Bitcoin in

year so and so and I ignored it.

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You know, and then a few years later,

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I saw this Bitcoin sticker,

Bitcoin accepted here.

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And I thought, what's Bitcoin sounds

like online gambling money for nerds,

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you know, has nothing to do with me.

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And then two years later, , I had

a problem that I needed solving,

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which was that I noticed my money

doesn't grow in the bank anymore.

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I don't get any interest.

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, I don't have a proper pension.

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Like I had a pension plan, but

it just didn't go anywhere.

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, and I noticed I need to.

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take matters in my own hands, you

know, like I need to grow my wealth.

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I need to find a new

way to grow my wealth.

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And it's the traditional options

that I knew about until that

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point just didn't work anymore.

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And, uh, and I noticed I need to

become an investor and I'm German.

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Germans are not raised to be investors.

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We are raised to be savers.

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And I was a really good

saver, but yeah, it's stupid.

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right now to save fiat money in the bank.

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So yeah.

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So that was about first, because

I didn't know about Bitcoin.

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I learned how to invest stocks and

commodities of, you know, this kind of

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stuff, which was really interesting for

me, but, I also learned how our money

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system works, which made me cringe.

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And I didn't want to participate

my energy or my money in that.

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And yeah, but then I heard about Bitcoin.

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And then, , because I was interested

and I had a problem that needed solving.

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I invested more time and actually

did start to study at this time, and

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I think I orange pilled myself.

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I mean, with all the help of

all the Andreas Antonopoulos and

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whoever was out there at the time.

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I didn't have anybody who came to me

and said, you have to look into Bitcoin.

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You have to look into Bitcoin because

it's going to do this or that for you.

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That did not happen.

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Tali: Yeah, I agree

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Anja: And I also never did that.

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I never did that with other people.

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I never went to these

women that I worked with.

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I never went to them.

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You have to.

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You have to know.

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This is what I do.

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If you're interested, I'm happy

to answer questions, but I'm not

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going to push this on anybody.

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Yeah.

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Tali: Yeah, I think sometimes the more we

push, the more they back away from you.

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Even though we're very excited and

they can tell that we're very excited.

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You're like, no, no, no, that's...

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That's not for me, right?

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So tell me a little bit

about your background.

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were in Germany and you

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Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: were saving.

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What were you

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Anja: I actually.

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I actually wasn't in Germany.

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I've lived abroad for half my life

and now I'm a complete digital nomad.

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So I'm just constantly traveling.

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, I was, , in the Netherlands.

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That's where I lived for a few years.

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And then I actually moved back to Germany.

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I tried to live in Germany again.

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So basically I was moving countries

and I was like, okay, let's take stock.

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do I need to get a job?

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Do I want to.

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restart my business in Berlin.

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That's where I was moving to.

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So I'm like, okay, let's just

take stock of all the finances.

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You know, how much money do I have?

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How urgently do I need to make money?

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What about pension plan?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And this is how I noticed

how things had changed.

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, and how, what I was doing saving

money just didn't work anymore.

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So that's what happened now.

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, as for my professional background,

I've always, , worked in operations.

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I'm an operations manager.

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, I've done this in the corporate fashion

world, then in the self development,

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spiritual development world, I've

worked for some spiritual teachers.

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, and then a year two years

into my Bitcoin journey.

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I was like, nah, I just, I don't

want to do anything else anymore.

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I don't want to like

moonlight as a Bitcoin.

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I just want to be a hundred percent,

, aligned , and be in Bitcoin.

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So it took me also, I was a little

bit in crypto and in web three.

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, but it's now since I think this narrative.

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Bitcoin not crypto really started

during the last year since Luna

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FTX and all of these things.

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, And I was like, yeah, , I've always told

people just do Bitcoin, don't make things

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complicated, you know, like, of course

you can do all the old coins or shit coins

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as well, but you're not making a mistake.

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You're only in Bitcoin.

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, and for me, this is.

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Just the last year has

solidified, uh, this.

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I am, I am a Bitcoiner.

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I don't want to do anything else anymore.

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Yeah.

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Tali: So now you're full

time working in Bitcoin.

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Anja: Uh, yes and no, because

right now I'm, , in between

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jobs, I don't have a project.

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I just finished one a month ago.

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And.

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But I'm, I have these phases, , you

know, as a freelancer, you, you

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know, how to deal with these phases.

143

Either you have a lot of work or you

have no work for, and in Bitcoin also,

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or even in crypto, you know, things

we know the market cycles and, and

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the workload or, availability of jobs

arises and falls with the market cycles.

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So, but I'm prepared for that.

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That's fine.

148

But I had this new.

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idea since I really, like I mentioned, I

think just before we started recording,

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, I went to the Bitcoin conference in

Prague in the summer and I realized

151

that, , I had been serving outsiders

of the community, like, uh, people who

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wanted to buy their first Bitcoin or

learn about what this whole thing even is.

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, and I really noticed I want to start

serving the Bitcoin community now.

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So I was like, how can I, how

can I add value to Bitcoin us?

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What happened, , as I was connecting

with lots of other Bitcoin, as

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many of them were like, Oh, you

work in Bitcoin, you made it.

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And wow.

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I wish I could do that too.

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And I thought, Oh, people want, , I

think this is maybe a natural

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evolution as you were a Bitcoiner first.

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Most of us come into this world for the

money, and then we really understand

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the power of decentralization

or , sovereignty and true financial

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and the technology and this, that,

and I think we come to a point where

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we just want to start contributing

to the network, whether it's.

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The computer network or the human

network, the Bitcoin network, and maybe

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some people decide to run a node at

that point or start building an app

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or whatever, and other people just

might, , decide I want to get a job.

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And for a Bitcoin company, you know, we

all can contribute in different ways.

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This happened to me a few years ago.

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I've been working in Bitcoin

now for, I think I started

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2018 or 19, not sure anymore.

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And I noticed that other people

seem to go through the same process.

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So I thought, huh, so I

have been in this world.

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I know how it works.

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Why don't I help other people do the same?

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So this is how I started this

new project called Bitvocation,

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because I believe it's a calling.

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It's a vocation.

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It's, we're not just getting a job.

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I'm in super early stage right now.

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I'm not making any money from

this, but I'm having so much fun.

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It's such a creative process to connect

with everybody to find out what are

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their challenges and to see over

time how I can add value to them.

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So how I started, I don't know

if you saw this, , but I, made

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a simple, I didn't make it.

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I had it made a telegram bot

that is posting into a public

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channel, all the latest job

openings, Bitcoin only job openings.

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Yeah.

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So, because when you are searching for

a job, there are a few job boards, but

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they don't have all the, latest openings.

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So it can be quite time consuming, job

search can be quite time consuming.

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So I'm like, I'm German, you

know, I'm all about efficiency.

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So I'm like, why not just

make a bot and have this.

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It's sent to people's phone, you know,

they just need to open telegram once a day

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or something and scroll through the feed.

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And also because there are tons of web

three and crypto telegram channels.

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With our bot, we completely cut out

the noise and we do Bitcoin only.

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Which I think is valuable to,

to curate, , all of these jobs.

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So that's my first little product free.

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product, um,

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Tali: do, how do people

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Anja: is, I'm just posting everywhere

on social media, but I just started

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my Twitter account has 97 followers.

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So it's not that it's not

like I have a lot of reach.

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Um, but yeah, I think people

are starting to share it.

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I just have a little more than a

hundred people subscribed to the

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bot now, but it's only a week old.

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Tali: I think that is such a desired

service , and very needed . There's a

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group of Bitcoiners who are starting this

new initiative called Operation Bitcoin.

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And it's all about spreading Bitcoin

education to veterans, after

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they come out of the military

service, and, you know, tell them

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about Bitcoin and why it's useful.

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And then of course, as a follow up,,

you want to offer them something else.

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You don't want to tell them about Bitcoin

and it just kind of set them loose.

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And so one of the things that

they talked about was how do we

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direct them into Bitcoin jobs?

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Because that's the ultimate dream

of all Bitcoiners out there.

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Like eventually they want to give

up their fiat career and fiat job

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and go full time into Bitcoin.

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So I think what you're providing

is tremendously valuable.

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So good job.

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And you got to start somewhere.

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It's okay.

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97 followers.

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That's a start.

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That's a star.

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Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: Congratulations.

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It's awesome.

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Anja: Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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The one thing I wanna say

about this though is, , that.

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Like sending out CVs everywhere,

I think, is the, , least

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possible way to find a job.

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And I don't know if that is Bitcoin

specific, , or because I haven't actively

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looked for a job, thank God, I didn't

have to, , for a while, so I You don't

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know how, , things work out there, but

for me, how I have been finding all

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my, , projects has all been through

the community through networking.

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Yeah.

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So this is the number one way.

242

And since Bitcoin is a community, , I

think this is what people really have

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to learn to utilize the community

to really become connectors.

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, I mean, it is a network

you have to network.

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You are a node.

246

In the Bitcoin network, and the

more other nodes you connect to,

247

the more successful you will be.

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So there are tons more ways, so this

is all in my head right now, how I

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can convey this to people, how to...

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Package this up, but,

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Tali: Yeah, you mentioned that when

you went to the Prague conference, you

252

knew everybody, but nobody knew you.

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So it's time to change that.

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Anja: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So let's see.

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But it's, yeah, it's a really

nice creative process and it's so

259

nice to speak to all these people.

260

Like just today I posted in

this telecom channel, like.

261

Because I noticed how many people are

completely underutilizing LinkedIn,

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you know, and because LinkedIn I think

for Bitcoiners is also not our first

263

thought, someone connected with me

recently on LinkedIn and said, , , yeah,

264

even though we're in Bitcoin, let's

connect here on peak fiat LinkedIn.

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And I was like, ah, this is the

perception of LinkedIn out there,

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but, , there are really Bitcoin specific

recruiters and where are they going

267

to look for candidates on LinkedIn?

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It is still the number

one, , search engine.

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And it is such a great tool to.

270

Utilize to be found in your

sleep, , just optimize your LinkedIn

271

profile so that this can do your job

search for you in a passive way, so

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I think this is right now this week.

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This has really been forming in my

head that this is maybe how I can

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provide the most value right now.

275

So I just post this day in the channel,

send me your LinkedIn profiles.

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I'm going to review them and, uh,

yeah, because it helps me learn.

277

And we have a value for value,

, way now to report each other.

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So I can just put this out for free.

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And if someone wants to, finds

it useful, they can decide what

280

they want to give back later.

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Tali: Yeah, , that's excellent.

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I need help.

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I know.

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I know my husband needs help.

285

There's a whole

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Anja: But what do you, yeah,

but what, what do you do?

287

Uh, and your husband?

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for

289

Tali: Okay, so I just finished.

290

I said just but it was a few years ago.

291

I finished homeschooling my four kids.

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Prior to having kids, yeah, four kids,

homeschool all the way through high

293

school, send them off to college.

294

And then my husband and I

were sitting there looking

295

at each other like, what now?

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. Because , that was my full time job.

297

That was 24 seven.

298

That was unrelenting, uh, you

know, morning till night, Monday

299

through Sunday kind of work.

300

There was no room in my life at that time

to really do anything else whatsoever.

301

, so suddenly I was done and

then All this time freedom like

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what am I gonna do with that?

303

Right around that time towards the end of

my kids homeschooling journey Scott found

304

Bitcoin and he spent two years trying to

convince me to get on board with him and

305

In the process of trying to get me to pay

attention because I was very resistant

306

I like we were talking before I had I

was juggling so many balls in the air.

307

I had no time or energy to give him

to this concept that I felt , was

308

pretty irrelevant to me, ? , I had,

I was single focus trying to get

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the kids through high school and

he kept trying to get my attention.

310

And finally he said, you know what,

let me, can I just put it in the board

311

game form and just explain it to you?

312

Cause he's tried videos.

313

He tried podcasts, he tried books

and articles, all of those things.

314

And I was.

315

Either not willing to listen or read or I

did a little bit and I didn't understand

316

and I gave up so he finally made the

first prototype of HODL UP which is the

317

game that we have now that we are sharing

with the Bitcoin community and , in an

318

attempt to get me interested in Bitcoin

so that we can enter the space as a team,

319

, fully agreed, you know, together that

we were going to invest in this thing.

320

So over the course of two years, numerous

prototypes finally got me on board.

321

I finally understood the technology

enough to say, fine, I will read a book.

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You know, I will read a darn book.

323

And of course I read the book and

I was sold because , , I'm 50.

324

So I'm looking back at our money journey.

325

And I was like, I cannot believe I

didn't understand what was going on.

326

And all the decisions that we made,

that we thought were so correct,

327

based on what we've been told,

was just playing into their game.

328

And I was so angry.

329

I, like, when I was reading my

first book, I was so angry I had

330

to put it down over and over again.

331

It took me several weeks to read

this one little short book called,

332

, Bitcoin, Hard Money You Can't F With.

333

But at the end of the book,

I was completely sold.

334

And the kids graduated and now we, I

have time and Scott and I are looking at

335

each other like what are we going to do?

336

And I said, listen, if you can use this

game to show me that Bitcoin is real.

337

Then another Bitcoiner is going to

be able to use that game to show

338

their family that Bitcoin is real.

339

And so , that's what started us traveling

to different states and bringing the game

340

to different Bitcoin meetups, which led

to my realization that we really needed

341

more female voices in this space, which

is why I started Orange Hatter podcast.

342

And then more traveling, more

conferences, and Scott and I realized

343

that there's a great interest in the

Bitcoin community in self custodying

344

their children's education, which is

homeschooling, which is what we did.

345

I can talk homeschooling.

346

All day long, literally, like Scott

can talk about Bitcoin all day long,

347

politics, macroeconomics, all that stuff.

348

I can talk about parenting and

homeschooling all day long, ? And

349

so we started a podcast

called Bitcoin homeschoolers.

350

So now we have two podcasts.

351

We're running free market kids.

352

We're trying to, , promote HODL up and

Scott is a really avid game designer.

353

That's his language.

354

When lightning started to become sort

of common Discussion topics in the

355

Bitcoin community second layer making

the transactions faster cheaper, etc He

356

started thinking how do I explain second

layer to people because it can be very

357

confusing the Inbound, outbound liquidity.

358

It's not something very intuitive, at

least , for me, for people like me.

359

So then he said, I want to make a

lightning game so that you can understand.

360

What they're talking about.

361

So over the course of last year, he

made a prototype, tested with us,

362

then started bringing it to all

of , these Bitcoin gatherings , and

363

he tried to play with as many experts

in the Lightning space as possible.

364

And now it's ready to launch.

365

So we have that.

366

We have another one that he

was trying to explain entropy.

367

You know, the, the C phrases,

like why it works, why 12

368

words is enough kind of thing.

369

So that's

370

Anja: Yeah, wow

371

Tali: he has developed.

372

And he's got several games in the back

of his mind that he wants to roll out.

373

So yeah, so that's what we do.

374

So he did.

375

He

376

Anja: Amazing.

377

So

378

Tali: as well.

379

Yeah,

380

Anja: so but basically he your job the

last few years has been homeschooling

381

His job has been game designing.

382

Is that what he does or it's

383

just a hobby?

384

Tali: it was a hobby.

385

It was a hobby.

386

, he worked in operations I don't

know if there is the same kind of

387

operations, but he did warehouse

Operations inbound outbound that kind

388

of thing He did that for 20 years and

now he's like no I want I want to be

389

in Bitcoin full time This is what I

believe in so that's what we're doing

390

Anja: Yeah, but amazing how he obviously

has, uh, or both of you have, , a

391

skill to bring complicated, , topics or

knowledge across , and break it down.

392

even for children.

393

In your experience, is it actually, do

people use it actually for children?

394

Because I always think, or anything

that's, uh, that's made for children

395

is so great for us grown ups to, to

396

learn in an easy way.

397

Tali: I like to read children's books,

, like children's biography and things

398

like that, because, and with pictures,

because I think I love learning that way.

399

Uh, for HODL UP, Scott actually

created this specifically for me.

400

So yeah, it's for children.

401

Because in technology, I just,

it's, I'm in such foreign waters

402

when I think computer technology.

403

And so Well, we have found Bitcoiners

who have purchased this game, it's been

404

pretty evenly split between, , introducing

their spouse their brother, sister their

405

parents and sharing with their children.

406

Children are easy.

407

Children are so easy.

408

You play the game with them.

409

They pick it up in five minutes.

410

You're like, I'm good to go.

411

Where's my wallet?

412

Give me some Bitcoin.

413

Like it's, it's quick.

414

The game it's designed so that.

415

It takes about half an hour, 45 minutes,

depending on how long you want to

416

strategize, about winning the game.

417

at the end of that, the number one

lesson you take away from the game

418

is get your Bitcoin in cold storage.

419

, you can't play the game and

not get that one lesson.

420

Everybody comes away from, and so children

would be, like we had one customer

421

write us a tweet, and he said, All I

heard was my five year old and my seven

422

year old yelling at each other about

getting their Bitcoin to cold storage

423

because they were playing the game.

424

And we're like, great, that's awesome.

425

Now when our customers told us

about playing with parents, so

426

they're harder to convince they they

grew up under a different system.

427

And they have a lot more questions.

428

So when they play the game, they

start to ask questions like,

429

What is this difficulty dial?

430

Why do you keep moving number up and down?

431

How come you start with more

Bitcoin and then by the end of the

432

game, you're earning less Bitcoin?

433

Well, that's called having.

434

And then we like sprinkle other stuff

in there so they can ask questions.

435

So if they want to win, which everybody

playing a board game wants to win,

436

they will inevitably ask questions

about Bitcoin because they must

437

it's part of the game mechanics.

438

And at the end of it, even

if they're not Orange pilled.

439

Like you said, they have to have a

problem that needs Bitcoin as the

440

solution, ? So even if they're not orange

pilled, they cannot help but to walk

441

away from the game understanding more

about Bitcoin and that's the whole point.

442

Anja: Yeah.

443

Amazing.

444

Tali: Yeah,

445

Anja: Amazing.

446

Especially also, like we were talking

about women before, , in my work

447

with women, I also noticed women just

want to feel smarter when they find

448

themselves in a Bitcoin conversation.

449

Yeah, and even just, even if you're

not interested after playing this

450

game, you are automatically smarter

and you know actually how things work.

451

It's great.

452

Yeah.

453

Tali: Exactly.

454

, actually, what started this whole thing

was a game that Scott created to teach

455

economic principles to our children

when they were in elementary school.

456

And we both got our MBA.

457

So we study economics, the traditional

way with very thick textbooks,

458

Long lectures, lots of graphs and

calculations, et cetera, et cetera.

459

When we were talking about teaching

our kids money, this is one of the

460

reasons why I was so angry when I

was reading the first Bitcoin book,

461

was like, we were so deliberate in

teaching our kids about money, and

462

what we taught them wasn't even what...

463

If like how it actually works,

you know, but anyway, so, so in

464

the beginning when we, when he

created his first game, the game is

465

called, is that the best you can do?

466

And we wanted the kids to play a game

and at the end of the game, be able

467

to answer questions like, how does the

price move when supply goes up or down?

468

Demand goes up or down.

469

What happens if there is a tariff that's

imposed on a product, what happens

470

when there's technology development

and the way that the kids play?

471

It's a negotiation game, so they're

practicing their language skills there

472

, talking up their product, they're

trying to sell it to their buyers,

473

you know, and they have to do mental

calculations really quick because they

474

got to quickly decide how low their price

can go or how high they can bid up so

475

that they can maximize their profits.

476

So they're doing mental calculations.

477

But at the end of that,

they know how price moves.

478

And it takes 30 minutes or 45 minutes,

depending on how, how active they are.

479

You don't have to give them a lecture.

480

You don't have to show them

graphs about how price moves.

481

Like that's the beauty of using

games to teach concepts because

482

they just pick it up, you know?

483

So yeah.

484

Anja: Yeah.

485

Amazing.

486

And how is it going?

487

How are sales going?

488

Because it's still a

super niche, of course.

489

And

490

Tali: It is,

491

Anja: are you advertising it

or are you traveling to every

492

Bitcoin meetup in the world?

493

Tali: we tried, we

try, , sales are going good.

494

They always spike after we do a podcast

interview because we still haven't

495

figured out the marketing bit to

reach Bitcoiners because Bitcoiners,

496

Anja: Yeah,

497

, Tali: they tend like the

traditional email campaign.

498

I don't feel that that

actually works with Bitcoiners.

499

A lot of them.

500

don't have an email they check all

the time anyway, or they have like

501

five different email accounts.

502

So they're very privacy oriented.

503

That bit Scott, I haven't figured out

we're still trying to figure it out.

504

But we definitely go to a lot of in

person events as much as possible.

505

We travel to Bitcoin Park

every month to continue

506

Anja: it's kind of punk.

507

Tali: Bitcoin Park is in Nashville.

508

It's a major hub for Bitcoiners.

509

In the United States,

we have two major hubs.

510

We have Nashville and

we have Austin, Texas.

511

So Nashville is about three hours

from where we live, so we try

512

to go there as much as possible.

513

And they have tons of events there.

514

Lots of Bitcoiners fly in

from all over the world.

515

A lot of Bitcoins are moving

to Nashville for Bitcoin Park.

516

So it's an amazing...

517

amazing gathering place.

518

But yeah, to answer your

question, we need help.

519

We need help with our marketing

initiative because we know our

520

product is good and effective.

521

And we've tested it with so

many people and we just get

522

we have endless testimonies

of how well this game works for

523

Anja: Yeah.

524

Tali: Acting as a conversation opener

because that's I think that's the

525

hardest thing that bitcorners find With

resistant family members, you can't

526

even start talking about it, you know

without somebody going please stop,

527

you know It's almost like talking

about politics during holidays.

528

You can't really like

how to even start right?

529

But if you say hey you guys , let's

just sit down, play a board game,

530

we'll make some popcorn, , pour

, some wine, make some hot chocolate

531

for the kids, let's just play.

532

And then in the process of it, not only do

you learn about Bitcoin, you don't have to

533

buy into it, but you learn about Bitcoin,

but you also have family time, you have

534

fellowship, and you're not looking at

a screen, you're looking at each other

535

in the eyeballs and you're interacting.

536

So,

537

Anja: Yeah.

538

And also, I don't know if this is a

general thing or I'm just noticing like a

539

big comeback in my life with board games.

540

Maybe that's a COVID phenomenon,

but I'm a nomad, I live in co-living.

541

I travel, I work from co-working

spaces and board games are everywhere.

542

, I think it's also, , , maybe

that's a tip for you for, to

543

contact these kind of, , places.

544

, I think people also just wanna

get away from the screen,

545

, sometimes, and just, uh, yeah.

546

I think that's why board games are

really in right now, in my world.

547

Yeah.

548

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

549

That's, that's what we have found.

550

A lot of Bitcoiners are huge board gamers,

and Scott obviously is a huge board gamer.

551

His brother is a huge board

gamer, and they go to this game

552

conference every year called GenCon.

553

It's in Indianapolis, and I think

they average anywhere between 60

554

to 80 thousand people per year.

555

attending the event.

556

I mean, there are some serious gamers

out there, and they are passionate,

557

passionate about their games.

558

But they are not Bitcoiners.

559

So, Scott tried bringing his game there,

and people were like, what is that?

560

We don't...

561

What is that?

562

You know?

563

Anja: Yeah.

564

Yeah.

565

But don't you find in your homeschooling

community that there's interest there?

566

Because it's just the values seem to

be aligned with those two communities.

567

Tali: That's...

568

I'm so glad you said that.

569

That's exactly what we thought.

570

And so Scott and I did bring our game

to, several homeschooling conferences.

571

In the hopes of introducing this tool,

because what better way to teach your kids

572

about this new money technology, right?

573

It's going to be the new money standard.

574

And homeschoolers really care about

that, like money, education, financial

575

education for their children.

576

So we brought it there

with such high hopes.

577

But the crazy thing was that we had

a booth and the first conference we

578

went to, we kind of danced around.

579

We said, Oh,

580

it's money education, and once

people heard that we were teaching

581

Bitcoin, they were like, no, thank you.

582

And just left.

583

I'm like, that's so weird.

584

So the second conference, we're like,

you know what, we're not dancing around.

585

We're going to put up like, we had

two spinning, , Bitcoin signs, like

586

literally spinning over our booth.

587

Like, if you care about

Bitcoin, come here.

588

We'll tell you about it.

589

If you don't, fine.

590

at That conference, I think

there were 15, 000 attendees.

591

And they you can see the traffic , you

can see the aisle people moving,

592

what happens was, they will see

our spinning Bitcoin and they

593

will kind of make a wide berth.

594

Anja: No.

595

Yeah.

596

Hmm.

597

Tali: and they were avoiding eye contact.

598

It was the wildest thing It was the

it was wild and we're Scott and I are

599

just done We're like this aligns with

everything you believe about homeschooling

600

why you're teaching your own kids

Why you don't trust the public system

601

this fully aligns, but for whatever

reason they were not ready to hear it

602

I even gave a workshop about money.

603

And yeah, so then Scott wrote An

article in Bitcoin magazine to talk

604

about how much the two topics actually

align homeschooling and Bitcoin.

605

So there's a lot of interest

in the Bitcoin community to

606

homeschool across the board.

607

If they can do it financially,

they want to homeschool their

608

kids, but not the other way around.

609

I think that will change though.

610

I feel like it will change

in the next few years.

611

I think we just went there a little

bit too early and people weren't ready.

612

Anja: I noticed this in the, you

know, about FIRE, this movement,

613

FIRE movement, like Financial

Independence Retire Early, FIRE.

614

Have you heard about this?

615

Tali: actually interviewed someone

for my podcast who told me about it.

616

Yeah.

617

Anja: Yeah, I heard about this a few years

ago and I was like, Oh, these people must

618

all be into Bitcoin, but they aren't.

619

They do ETFs and you

know, all the other stuff.

620

And, and there's very, um, I mean,

a few are open to it, but like,

621

It's not like, uh, as much as an

overlap as I would have expected.

622

So it's similar to what you just said.

623

It's

624

Tali: Yeah, it's the same thing

with the Dave Ramsey movement, , the

625

no debt, no credit, I don't

know if you're familiar with him.

626

He's very, very popular in

the Christian community.

627

Anja: his name.

628

I know his name, but I'm, I

629

Tali: Yeah, it's all about reducing

your expenses, making sure you pay

630

off all of your debts, be debt free.

631

And I'm not sure exactly what he

recommends for investments, but he for

632

a while was even teaching people like

if you are not a professional, just sell

633

your rental properties because you're

just going to drain money into your

634

rental properties, that kind of stuff.

635

So I don't hear people talk

about Bitcoin who follow him.

636

I haven't listened to him, but that's

a very popular financial planning

637

Curriculum that the homeschoolers follow

but it's again It's not like I think they

638

all tend to think cryptocurrencies are

all the same and a lot of them think that

639

They've missed the boat with bitcoin So

they don't really understand bitcoin.

640

They're just looking at it

like an investment vehicle

641

Anja: Well, it just comes back to the

point again, that until they have a

642

problem that they need to solve, they will

not be open to listen or to study Bitcoin.

643

It's just the way it is, yeah.

644

Tali: Yeah.

645

Um, Hey, so , what are you doing?

646

Is it okay that I , tell

people where you are right now?

647

Anja: Uh, yes, where I am right now,

like in Greece, or what do you mean?

648

Tali: Yeah.

649

Yeah.

650

I,

651

Anja: sure.

652

Tali: I, I would love to go to

Greece and I, I kind of envy digital

653

nomads a little bit because you get

to see so many different places.

654

What brought you to Greece?

655

Anja: Uh, actually my friend, , who

I'm sharing an apartment with.

656

Yeah, because I was actually in Thailand.

657

We both met, we have sort of

our base in Bulgaria, like where

658

we are registered on paper.

659

, Bulgaria has a tiny town called Bansko,

B A N S K O, , which is sort of a

660

hub in Europe for digital nomads.

661

And so this is where we met.

662

, we stay at the same co living there.

663

So we spend a few months there.

664

Then we all travel in

different directions.

665

And then we come back, , a

few months later.

666

So I was in Thailand.

667

And he was like, Oh, I'm

going, I'm in Greece.

668

I'm going to be alone for my birthday.

669

I have an apartment with two bedrooms.

670

. And I was like, okay, I've been

for two months in Thailand.

671

So why don't I just come back to Europe?

672

It's been enough.

673

In Asia, I planned also really

badly because I went from, from

674

one island where, where the rainy

season just started to the next place

675

where the rainy season just ended.

676

So I had frizzy hair everywhere.

677

I couldn't make videos.

678

So I was like, oh yeah, I don't

have to look for accommodation.

679

Yeah, I'm just going to go back and

surprise him, , for his birthday.

680

So now we spend a month here.

681

I'm on Crete right now on the island,

and then we're going to spend a couple

682

of weeks in Athens where I'm going to

meet the Bitcoiner community there.

683

On Crete, there are no Bitcoiners here.

684

I'm using the OrangePill app.

685

I don't know if you are

on the OrangePill app.

686

And there's just nobody.

687

I mean, there are people, but like

300 kilometers away or something.

688

So, but I connected with a bunch

of people in Athens, so I'm

689

going to join the meetup there.

690

And then I'm going to make my

way back to Bulgaria to rest.

691

This is always my resting place.

692

Two months there, two months

somewhere else, and then I come back.

693

Yeah, I don't know if

I'm a real digital nomad.

694

I call myself a digital

slow mad or home mad.

695

Tali: So Bulgaria.

696

Anja: to travel all the time.

697

Tali: Yeah, so tell me about

this place in Bulgaria.

698

I'm very curious, how many people are

there and how many people go in and out.

699

Anja: So, the town only

has 12, 000, , inhabitants.

700

But I think at any point in time,

there are always like around

701

200 nomads, so 200 foreigners.

702

Um, and they are very used to

living with foreigners because it's

703

actually a winter sport resort.

704

If you Google Bansko, you will see the

most beautiful, , winter, , images.

705

, and so they're very used

to tourists in the winter.

706

And yeah, there was a guy a few

years ago, six years ago or something

707

who just said, Oh, this is a

really nice place all year round.

708

Why don't I open a coworking space

and just, uh, bring all the nomads.

709

And I think also, so for me,

it was since, COVID actually,

710

because most of us, we like to go.

711

to the sun, in the winter,

Thailand, Bali or whatever.

712

, but , I didn't really want to

travel very far during COVID.

713

So, uh, and I'm from Europe, so I

thought, oh, let's get to know Europe.

714

And so I went to Bansko

and it's a special place.

715

If anybody listens here who wants to,

who wants to become a digital nomad,

716

it's a great first starting point.

717

Because even if you travel by yourself,

since it's such a small place, you

718

get the community provided to you.

719

You cannot.

720

not connect there.

721

There's also a big nomad fest

in the summer every year.

722

And it's also very affordable because

especially now with inflation,

723

everything becoming more expensive

and , the number of places that we

724

can afford to live in is shrinking,

, Eastern Europe is really a gem still.

725

where people can afford to live.

726

It's also two hours away from

Greece or from the Greece beaches.

727

So, yeah, I can recommend it.

728

Plus, I'm there, so you can meet me.

729

Tali: So other than Bulgaria,

where else have you traveled

730

that you absolutely loved?

731

Anja: Well, Thailand is a

really easy, , place to travel,

732

also for women solo travelers.

733

Thailand and Bali in Asia.

734

I love the States.

735

I love doing road trips,

, anywhere in the States.

736

I haven't been in a long time, , because

I always need to go with someone

737

because I'm not a good driver.

738

I'm not a good, , a very confident driver.

739

, I really want to go to South

America or Latin America.

740

I have not been there at all yet.

741

, so I'm a bit jealous that

you're going to El Salvador now.

742

, I have Had this on my list, but even

though I follow all the news about

743

El Salvador a lot, , I'm still a bit

scared to travel there by myself.

744

, even though maybe that's wrong, it's

just, , things sound good from the people

745

who are there and everything is safe but

, I would like to go with someone else.

746

And I just have, I don't

really have Bitcoin.

747

, my friends are supportive

of me being in Bitcoin.

748

But they are not in Bitcoin.

749

So nobody is motivated enough to travel

with me to a conference in El Salvador.

750

And it's just something, some places

I just don't want to go by myself.

751

It's just a safety thing or just

752

the , first time thing.

753

Yeah, but I've been also in all of Europe.

754

I've been, , to a couple

of places in Africa.

755

America and Asia are the

places I've been to most,.

756

Tali: think that's very wise to

not go to somewhere by yourself the

757

first time, you have to gauge, who

you can trust and where you can go.

758

I think that's very wise.

759

Anja: And once you're there and you see,

oh, this is not at all what as bad or

760

whatever I expected, then it's easy,

761

Tali: Yeah, most places are not

the way news portray it to be.

762

We were on the call with someone

who lives in Hong Kong, and he

763

was going to travel to the States

and his girlfriend was so worried.

764

He was like, please don't get shot.

765

And That's their impression of America

is like if you walk on the streets

766

here, you just get shot like no That's

not no, that's not the way it actually

767

is here you gotta know where not to go,

but that's the same everywhere So yeah, I

768

don't I don't think news does justice to

what actually is happening in most places

769

Anja: yeah, exactly.

770

And it's always nice to check out

for yourself but in a In a safe way.

771

Tali: Yeah, yeah for sure.

772

So you mentioned that your friends are

not Bitcoiners So are you the only one

773

in your close group family friends?

774

Anja: Yeah.

775

I mean, I meet Bitcoin us being a nomad.

776

I have one friend who is a

lightning developer, actually.

777

, but the really like my travel

family or the people that

778

I spend the most time with.

779

Yeah, like I said, they're

very supportive, and they

780

all own Bitcoin, at least.

781

But only because they hear me

talk about it all the time.

782

Uh, they would never, and maybe

they have just 10 worth of Bitcoin,

783

whatever, you know, but it's just

like, okay, because I'm asset.

784

Tali: Right.

785

Anja: Uh, one of them is really into it.

786

He talks about it a lot, but he's not a

Bitcoiner, it's just, he's into something

787

else, but he wants to grow his money.

788

And yes, that Bitcoin is

definitely part of that.

789

, but yeah, it's very few.

790

Very few people,

791

,

Tali: So basically, it sounds like they know that you do Bitcoin.

792

And if they have questions,

they'll come to you.

793

But so far, they're standing

outside looking in just

794

waiting to see what happens.

795

Anja: not even.

796

It's just not part of their world.

797

The only thing they know about

Bitcoin is that I keep talking about

798

it and that this is something I do.

799

So if they would meet someone who

wants to learn more or whatever

800

they would say, oh you need to

speak to my friend Anja or whatever.

801

So that's That's it.

802

Tali: Yeah, I guess we're

still kind of fringe.

803

What about the women that

you have worked with?

804

You said that you were helping some would

you call them clients to set up wallets

805

Anja: Yeah

806

Tali: understand a little bit like

807

Anja: So that's yeah, this

was really interesting.

808

Also the motivation, , some of them,

like I said, they just, like I had one

809

woman, her husband was a CFO in a big

company, , and just like, I'm not telling

810

him that I'm investing in Bitcoin.

811

I will only tell him once I have had

some success with this, you know, , or

812

some just wanted to sound smarter in a

conversation, , because , their husbands

813

kept talking about Bitcoin, but often.

814

I mean, I cannot generalize because

I only have the stories from

815

the people that I worked with.

816

, but often family members don't

want to teach other family members.

817

Like I had, , people send me their

parents so that I could teach them,

818

but the children were Bitcoin or

in crypto or whatever, I'm like,

819

why don't you, it's like, no, it's

not good for our relationship.

820

Why I'm too impatient or whatever,

but I also had a lot of women, , in

821

their fifties and older, because

that's also something I noticed.

822

And I, I realized we always think

that, , people who are in Bitcoin, this

823

is a certain type of people and you

would not expect , first of all, many

824

women or women over a certain age, but

this is where the disposable income is.

825

And this is where.

826

the people really start caring

about their pension plan.

827

I mean, once you're, that's something

also with friends, once they hit 40,

828

suddenly they're like, I did I actually

prepare for my pension or whatever,

829

because you're suddenly closer to

your pension than you were before.

830

, so either they care more about this

for themselves or they care about

831

what they're going to leave behind.

832

, so we should not, , dismiss this age

group, and maybe that's even really

833

an important one to concentrate on and

explain in a really meaningful way.

834

Thank good language or with games or

whatever, , what this is all about.

835

. But also what I liked about your article,

going back to this, about the stories

836

and how we talk to certain target groups.

837

This is also really

something I believe in there.

838

Even you, I, we cannot

speak to all the women.

839

There are some women who we don't resonate

with, and we cannot generalize that

840

women are like this and men are like this.

841

. That's why I think the more Bitcoiners

there are who can teach their, their

842

people who are like them, , like

teenagers can teach other teenagers,

843

or retired women or men can.

844

I mean, every, , niche or target group

has a certain language or certain

845

challenges that if just one of them

understands how Bitcoin fixes this,

846

they can, , convey this to their people.

847

Tali: That's so true.

848

Anja: I'm always like, you are a

node, you are a node in the network.

849

And you have, . job and an opportunity,

to, to communicate the value of Bitcoin.

850

,

Tali: That's what I have found just having hosted Orange Hatter interviews,

851

there's such a myriad of women types I

have been able to have conversation

852

with all different ages, like what

you were saying, the boomer age, to...

853

Teenagers to people who, have a

professional background, people who are

854

blue collar in their background and , all

different cultural backgrounds and Europe,

855

Africa, Asia, all these different places.

856

And like you said, not everybody's

going to resonate with you or me,

857

but they'll resonate with somebody.

858

so everybody's voice is important

and everybody's voice counts.

859

So, yeah, I'm really glad.

860

I'm totally on board.

861

.

Anja: Yeah.

862

Yeah.

863

Everybody needs to hear this in

a language they can understand.

864

And there are only certain people

who will speak their language.

865

So yeah, I speak the language of certain

type of people, you speak another one.

866

So the more we are, the better.

867

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

868

What would you say to women who are

sitting on the fence and just kind of

869

waiting, waiting to see if they should

hop into this whole crazy Bitcoin train?

870

, what would you say to them?

871

Anja: I mean, there's a

reason why they're waiting.

872

Why?

873

Why?

874

It's not urgent yet for them.

875

So I can't say anything to

them except for once you are

876

ready and you want to learn more.

877

Come to me or find your teacher.

878

Find someone who you understand,

or read a book or whatever, , but

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before they are ready, it's just

useless to, to try to push it on them.

880

Like you said before, the more we push,

the more resistance we create, , we just

881

need to let people know that we are there.

882

Yeah.

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And if it's not me, I'm going to

send them to you or to someone else,

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someone who speaks their language.

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Tali: So how should people reach you?

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Should they look for you on LinkedIn?

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Anja: I am on LinkedIn and

I, this new thing that I'm

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building is called Bitvocation.

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That should be findable and my handle

everywhere on Twitter and Telegram

890

on YouTube is connect economy.

891

Right now, the one thing that I would

love to spread is the Bitvocation feed

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on Telegram, which is the bot that

sends you all the latest job openings.

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Tali: How do you find that?

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Anja: Well, the link is t for telegram

dot me slash bit vocation feed.

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When you're in telegram, it

should also be findable if you

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just type it vocation feed.

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.

Tali: So, oh, I can just join?

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Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: joined!

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Anja: You're number 124.

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Welcome.

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Tali: Yay!

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I'm going to have Scott sign in too.

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Cool.

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Anja: Yay.

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.

Tali: Thanks for joining us today . If the discussion with our guests

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resonated with you and you would

like to dive deeper into the world of

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Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

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The meetup link is in the show notes.

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Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

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benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

912

Until next time, bye!