Shownotes
Kasim sits down with Brent Perkins, serial entrepreneur, to talk about growth opportunities, the worst size a company can be, and Brent’s new book- Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion.
In this engaging conversation, they also explore the power of choice and free will and how it can be leveraged to achieve success.
Don't miss out on exclusive early access to podcasts and interviews, plus a free gift, before the public release of Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion in August 2023. Learn more at www.papercutssuck.com.
0:00 Growth Opportunities and The Art of Self Delusion with Brent Perkins
0:58 Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion
4:07 A truth is a fact and a belief blended together
7:49 Applying The Art of Self-Delusion in marketing
11:55 Where you can get a copy of Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion
18:27 Where to connect with Brent Perkins
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Transcripts
Scott, I'm here with the day, the Google news.
2
:And today we're not talking
about Google at all.
3
:We're talking about growth
opportunities, the worst size
4
:a company could possibly be.
5
:And the art of self delusion here
with my buddy, Brent Perkins, Brent.
6
:I appreciate being here, man.
7
:Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
8
:Thanks.
9
:Yeah.
10
:You're one of my favorite people
that I met at front road dads.
11
:Or you were until I met you in person
and found that you were taller than me.
12
:Yeah, it was an obnoxious
thing for you to do.
13
:I don't know.
14
:It's so funny, man.
15
:you don't spend a lot of time
when you're I'm six, four.
16
:And so I just don't spend time
around people that are taller.
17
:And it's so jarring.
18
:And it reminds me like how people
must feel when they're around me.
19
:It's just, have this visceral, like,
you think you're better than me?
20
:Is that what's happening?
21
:Yeah.
22
:Sometimes.
23
:No, it's humbling, isn't it?
24
:Yeah.
25
:Yeah.
26
:I don't, I can't imagine how often
you run into it, given that you're.
27
:Just standard deviation above.
28
:Not what we're here to talk about.
29
:You wrote a book.
30
:I did.
31
:You wrote a book called Paper Cuts,
which by the way, I'm just going to
32
:share my screen because it's probably
the best book cover I think I've
33
:ever seen from a self published book.
34
:And that's usually my big pet peeve.
35
:I've self published both my
books and my covers are garbage,
36
:but this is like, who did this?
37
:Did you really?
38
:Yeah, I did it in mid journey
when that was all a big big,
39
:big thing back in January.
40
:I was playing around and that came
out and I was like I'm keeping this.
41
:Yeah.
42
:That's phenomenal.
43
:I love that you did that in
mid journey too, because now
44
:everybody listening or watching
is going to fall in love with you.
45
:What an amazing tool that is, but
I think it's, really compelling.
46
:That's the type of thing that
would make me stop scrolling.
47
:Why is it called the art of self delusion?
48
:What about self delusion are we
specifically speaking towards here?
49
:Yeah.
50
:So really this book's about the choice we
don't step into daily maybe even higher
51
:level would be perspective, Shifting your
perspectives, which to do that, you're
52
:shifting, you're stepping into choice and
the delusion parts, of course, a little
53
:bit of play on words to have fun with
the book, but I really built a construct
54
:that shows inside of the book where.
55
:playing off of Einstein's that really
this world is an illusion, his statement
56
:he made that our interpretation of the
illusion is a delusion because, you
57
:might walk away, for instance, from this
podcast and maybe I was having a bad day
58
:and you're like, man, Brent sucked today.
59
:And then you talk to me and
you're like, Oh, you know what?
60
:I didn't see it.
61
:He didn't suck.
62
:He was just a melancholy because
of this happened and this happened
63
:and you shift your truth, right?
64
:Because truth is yours.
65
:And my truth is mine.
66
:I argue they're delusions
because we can alter them.
67
:We can shift them.
68
:We can change perspective.
69
:We can tweak them.
70
:So they're not real because
we can choose a different one.
71
:But if truth isn't real, it puts us
in a position of, and I'm going to
72
:accelerate logical sequence that's
going through my mind to the end
73
:result, which I think is nihilism.
74
:It's like, why am I not just running
around stealing whatever I want, treating
75
:people however, you know what I mean?
76
:Like, cause there's no truth.
77
:I can make it what I wanted.
78
:So where's the objective
principle based the confines
79
:within which I have to operate.
80
:Yeah, I guess, you need to start
from the basis that love is the
81
:underwriting energy to everything.
82
:So there is a core truth.
83
:There's like the objective truth
and then our delusion sit on
84
:top of whatever that might be.
85
:What I'm speaking to is
our interpretations of
86
:our experiences on Earth.
87
:I only can experience earth
time through my five senses.
88
:And the way I smell and like, if you and
I are drinking the same glass of wine
89
:and eating the same piece of chicken,
they taste and smell different to each
90
:other than they, I mean, there isn't a
truth about how they taste and smell.
91
:It just is through our own version of it.
92
:It's our interpretation of what that is.
93
:And those are our truths because
the truth is a fact and a belief.
94
:kind of blended together.
95
:Oh, I like that.
96
:A truth is a fact and a
belief blended together.
97
:How interesting.
98
:That's such an indictment.
99
:You know what I mean?
100
:Like it, you start to see
where truth becomes porous.
101
:So what does that mean then?
102
:Like, are we, do we need to walk
through life questioning everything we
103
:believe, or is there, is there a power
to this or is it a cautionary tale?
104
:No, it's, power because yes, curiosity
is arguably the best thing you
105
:could walk through life with because
there's nothing that's absolute.
106
:You walk outside and you can choose to
have on brown glasses, blue glasses,
107
:red glasses, you get to choose what
your lens is and none of them are wrong.
108
:How do you want to show up?
109
:And if you don't like it, if it's not
working, you change it, just shift it.
110
:It's always choice.
111
:So it's super empowering.
112
:I mean, you take it to one, you
swing the pendulum one direction and
113
:you start to get into manifestation
and that we create everything.
114
:But you swing it the other direction
and you get into straight victimhood.
115
:This book, the goal of it is to
pull people out of victimhood,
116
:that anything is possible.
117
:You just got to choose.
118
:You got to choose your perspective,
choose how you show up, choose
119
:what you want to believe.
120
:I really love that.
121
:And I think that the
whole concept of life.
122
:predicated on and by
choice is so empowering.
123
:It's also repellent.
124
:I think it's a really easy
thing to be very afraid of.
125
:And we, kind of sell victimhood.
126
:Now I saw this really interesting meme.
127
:it was so poignant.
128
:You know, those memes that capture you
and you're just like, God, whoever built
129
:this is just won the internet today.
130
:But it said something to the effect
of like in the twenties, we worshiped
131
:the party goer in the thirties.
132
:We worship the financier in the forties.
133
:We worship the soldier in the fifties.
134
:We worshiped the father in the
sixties was the rebel in the
135
:seventies was the lover in the eight.
136
:And I'm making these up, but
every decade was marked by, and
137
:then now we worship the victim.
138
:a contest.
139
:It's like who can out
victim the other person.
140
:And I don't know that I see
a, direct line of sight out
141
:of that, but maybe this is it.
142
:Maybe it's guys like you
writing books like this.
143
:I don't know the answer to that, Qasim.
144
:I see with my kids and social media.
145
:Yeah.
146
:So easy for them to get into victimhood.
147
:Or to, really, and part of that's
just a mental model where we're
148
:comparing ourselves, right?
149
:oh, I don't have what they have.
150
:Oh, I don't look like she or he looks on
like, I'm not traveling to where they are.
151
:We're in our own victimhood storyline.
152
:And choice says.
153
:No, no, I choose different.
154
:I choose not to sit in that place.
155
:I choose to not believe what I'm seeing
that they're putting on social media
156
:is the end all be all of everything.
157
:It's not real.
158
:Yeah, I love that, that like what you've
posited here is victimhood is rooted
159
:in comparison, which I've not thought
about, but that feels sound to me.
160
:That's what I see my kids struggle with.
161
:Yeah, dude, it's, I,
man, I struggle with it.
162
:I, I, I will default into victimhood if
I'm not, I probably do it all the time.
163
:And I don't even realize it,
but if I'm not careful, it's
164
:just such an easy place to sit.
165
:So, this is definitely the
most esoteric conversation
166
:we've ever had on this channel.
167
:Help me bring it down to, you're talking
to a bunch of entrepreneurs and marketers.
168
:Yep.
169
:Help them take this information
and then use it to make money.
170
:So this can go in a lot of directions,
but I mean, marketing's my background.
171
:I've started a bunch of companies.
172
:I spent 20 years, you know
running businesses with a, you
173
:know, marketing angle on it.
174
:You know, the last company we took
from ground up started, they had 50
175
:engineers and no marketing salespeople.
176
:That's why they, brought me into, tell
their story, build a brand around it.
177
:So really, I think.
178
:You know, for the marketing angle,
it's about how do we, how do
179
:we tell the story in a way that
doesn't step into victimhood, which
180
:everybody else, is capitalizing on.
181
:It's not the long tail battle, right?
182
:Victimhood is a short, quick
dopamine hit that you're going
183
:to get something fast with.
184
:If we move back into empowering
people, which is what choice
185
:is, it's about being empowered.
186
:And if we can tell our stories about our
products and our offerings in that way.
187
:Now we have long tail marketing again,
which is part of what I feel like we've
188
:stepped out of in the last 10 years.
189
:No, you're absolutely right.
190
:Everything's been a hundred percent
just like impulse by it's on both
191
:levels to what we sell the end consumer,
but what also marketers sell the
192
:business, the thing that I'm giving
you, isn't there is no long tail to it.
193
:It's just right now it's, it's
the sweets without the nutrition
194
:and marketing is storytelling.
195
:what do you do though, if you're the
only market or playing by the rules?
196
:So I'm the only market or not
falling into the victimhood
197
:background narrative timeline.
198
:And.
199
:Because I'm not using the clickbait, BS,
I get left behind in the short term, how
200
:do we buttress that person's resolve?
201
:It's like being the only guy
at the gym, not juicing, or the
202
:only kid in class, not cheating.
203
:It is and it isn't.
204
:You know, you and I were talking about
this earlier, which is curiosity.
205
:Curiosity doesn't play a role anymore.
206
:I don't, I go back to my kids because
they're the ones on TikTok all the time.
207
:it's less me than them, but.
208
:They're not asking other people
questions about the other people.
209
:It's always just about what can I do?
210
:Well, it's so selfish.
211
:So starting to get curious, people
want to talk about themselves.
212
:If we can start to ask questions
in the right way and get curious
213
:about other people, let their
stories come through in our own
214
:stories, that's still not happening.
215
:We're just pushing stories on
people saying, this is my story.
216
:You know, it should be appealing to you.
217
:It is appealing to you.
218
:Now go, go figure out how to
duplicate it in your own way
219
:versus, hey, what's your story?
220
:Let's get back to what's unique about you.
221
:And let's ask more questions.
222
:We're not asking enough questions.
223
:So there's, there's a way to
capitalize on the dopamine hit.
224
:But do it through
curiosity, just showing up.
225
:It's being present without
being selfishly present.
226
:I'm turning the lens around
on the, the, the narrative.
227
:I really like that too, which is
instead of telling you about my quick
228
:hitter story, I turn it around and
try to figure out what about you?
229
:Cause that's what everybody
wants to talk about, right?
230
:Like that's, that's, we go
back to Dale Carnegie now.
231
:And people are most interested in
themselves, and I don't think I lost
232
:on try to figuring out how to use these
platforms, and we know enough about
233
:them now it's time to go back to some
of the old school basics that works,
234
:but using the new school platforms.
235
:Yeah, there's, there's a lot of.
236
:Bill Gates has that quote automation
applied to an inefficient system
237
:just amplifies the inefficiency.
238
:And I think the echo chamber
that is the social media model
239
:has amplified the wrong message.
240
:And we all know it, but we're
on this runaway train and we
241
:can't, we have yet to stop it.
242
:And then here we are.
243
:So somebody wanted to read this book.
244
:It's not launched yet, right?
245
:We're in pre launch phase.
246
:It goes live August 10th, August 10th.
247
:And they can get an
ebook, soft copy audio.
248
:And you're doing the audio yourself.
249
:Yeah, which is great.
250
:I love it when authors read their own
work and then you especially because just
251
:because you're so fired up about this
I think that'd be, really cool to hear.
252
:And it's called paper cuts,
the art of self delusion.
253
:It's by Brent Perkins so August
10, make sure to you can pre order
254
:the book right now on Amazon.
255
:you can pre order the book.
256
:From your website, you can
on Amazon or you can just go
257
:follow along@papercutssuck.com.
258
:I love that.
259
:Paper cuts suck.com.
260
:And then you also do you do some
consulting ad hoc, right, Brett?
261
:I do, kind of find that sweet spot in
the five to $20 million companies that
262
:that have maybe grown too quickly or
They've been to product focused or been
263
:to something focused need a kind of a
holistic look to see how do we how do
264
:we keep the wheels on in a, healthy way.
265
:So, and you've been the CEO of
two eight figure businesses that
266
:look like nine figure businesses
because you're a marketer which is
267
:exactly what people should be doing.
268
:And we were talking about this
before we hit record, but that, that.
269
:That five to 10, I think into 20 million.
270
:I've always felt like when I watch
those organizations, they start to
271
:kind of hit their stride, but that five
to 10 is such an abysmal place to be.
272
:It's the worst size.
273
:You have all the big problems.
274
:Without any of the big solutions yet.
275
:Yeah.
276
:Can't really afford to invest big
money into, into anything that really
277
:works from a systemization standpoint.
278
:Right.
279
:Yeah.
280
:Well, and you're always lopsided too.
281
:You're usually really good at one
thing, you know, be it the product
282
:or the fulfillment or the sales, but
then everything else kind of sucks.
283
:Generally, I think, and tell me if this
has been your experience is because you're
284
:built around one, person, one wizard.
285
:I would say in general, that's, true.
286
:And that wizard is usually a
really good one trick pony.
287
:Yeah.
288
:That's funny.
289
:So my agency solutions eight, I think
we're the best Google ads in the world,
290
:but it's only because my business partner
is the best Google ads guy in the world.
291
:And now we've hired really well.
292
:I've got a phenomenal team, but you
know, that's, I think we'd be really
293
:well defined as a one trick pony.
294
:And we got, you know, we're sub 10
million gross revenue, but approaching.
295
:And I don't think we could get
to 20 just running Google Ads, or
296
:maybe that's a limiting belief.
297
:I think we'd have to branch out to
other channels or, you know, go a
298
:little deeper on the, customer journey.
299
:So where do you start
with a business like that?
300
:Like, you're my consultant.
301
:I hired you today.
302
:Where do we begin?
303
:Start with people.
304
:It always starts with people.
305
:Do you have the right
people in the right places?
306
:So the first, that's the first
way you can sink your ship.
307
:You're either overspending
or you're underspending or
308
:you're not empowering them.
309
:That's, that's your
biggest asset right there.
310
:Yeah.
311
:Do you do those personality profiles?
312
:You know, I've done a lot of them.
313
:The one, if there is one, my favorite
is the culture index because it
314
:it gets out of just personality.
315
:It starts to get into kind of innately.
316
:How do you show up and then how do
you modify your, it's behavior based.
317
:So what behavior do you
show up with at work?
318
:And what behavior do you show up
with innately in life and how are you
319
:modifying your behavior to show up at
work and then it shows kind of do you
320
:have the fortitude or the energy bank to
be able to modify what you need to do?
321
:So, for instance, I
suck at details, right?
322
:I am a hard charging, hit the gas,
get shit done type of guy from
323
:like a I can think five years out.
324
:I can see the big picture, but
you want me to go fill out forms
325
:and do details and I'm horrible.
326
:But at work, I know I have
to do some of that stuff.
327
:So like my profile at work shows
that I can get details done to
328
:like call it a 30 percent level.
329
:But it's enough.
330
:It's enough for me to get the job done,
but on my profile, like my natural
331
:profile, I'm 0 percent that's interesting.
332
:Those behavioral pieces are what I
always want to know, because I want to
333
:know, hey, what's easy for somebody?
334
:What's natural?
335
:How do they show up in a way
where it's like, this feels great.
336
:I love coming to work because it's just
easy versus Oh, it's so I'm pulling teeth.
337
:I'm like, I don't, I can't wait.
338
:It's five o'clock.
339
:Cool.
340
:I'm out.
341
:we don't want that.
342
:I think we did.
343
:I'm looking at culture index now.
344
:I don't remember if this was it I've done
five or six in my entrepreneurial career,
345
:where you bring in the consultant, you
pay them a whole bunch of money, and
346
:then they go test everybody and they come
back and they have the recommendations.
347
:I remember one gentleman in
particular, who was great at this.
348
:He tested my entire team and I had
one young lady who worked for me.
349
:He was the worst employee I've
ever had in my entire life.
350
:And I thought it was me or because
she on paper looked so good.
351
:She came from a really
trusted referral source.
352
:It was a niche specific need.
353
:I'm trying to veil her identity here.
354
:, and I had nobody else.
355
:And so I was desperate to make her work.
356
:And so in my mind, I was like, it's me,
it's the situation, it's this, it's that.
357
:And then he went and he did, I
don't know if it was culture index
358
:or not, but tested everybody.
359
:And he came back and he
said, you know, who is Sally?
360
:And I'm like, why do you ask?
361
:And he's like, cause she
does not belong Here at all.
362
:And he was able to just
spot it like instantly.
363
:And that was so empowering to hear
and to feel like, Oh, thank God.
364
:Yeah.
365
:But it's hard when you're
inside of it to know that.
366
:Yeah.
367
:I mean, what's interesting too, is,
is those employees, they may be lying
368
:to themselves, but they know too,
something empowering about sitting
369
:down, you know, and I imagine you do
this because I know you want to know
370
:you're just a great, a great guy and
a great manager, a great boss, but
371
:to be able to tell somebody, Hey.
372
:You're amazing at this
piece, whatever it is.
373
:We don't have that here.
374
:I need to help you find this
because when you land in this,
375
:you're going to love life.
376
:You're going to love showing, you're
going to love waking up, putting your
377
:clothes on and going to work every day.
378
:I imagine you don't.
379
:And I don't want that for you.
380
:And I don't want that for me.
381
:Yeah.
382
:I'm going to go back and listen
to this recording because
383
:it was really well stated.
384
:I don't know that I am good at
those conversations anymore.
385
:I think I used to be.
386
:I got a little jaded Brent,
so I need to come back to the
387
:empathy that you just gave me.
388
:Where can people connect with you?
389
:Really paper cuts suck, gets
you into that's your sandpit.
390
:Yeah.
391
:That's my sandpit.
392
:That'll launch you into wherever
we're lots of other things.
393
:So it's a great place to start.
394
:You know, I realized the paper
cuts book is, a little esoteric,
395
:but what, what it can do mostly.
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:I mean, speaking from, I wrote it
for myself, you know, ex CEO who will
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:probably be a CEO again, one day, how
do you show up your best in a way where
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:you trust yourself so you don't have
to question decisions you're making?
399
:Like, that's what the power of this
book is, is how do you step into choice
400
:and integrity and learn how to love
and trust you because then you show up
401
:for your business in a way that you've,
you've probably never showed up before.
402
:I really love that.
403
:I love the esoteric conversations too.
404
:I want to have more of these because.
405
:You know, it's the difference in,
I just shot a video on this and
406
:nobody watched it, which made me mad.
407
:But, are you familiar with Stephen Covey's
Personality Ethic versus Character Ethic?
408
:Yeah.
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:So, this is Character Ethic discussion.
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:All the other videos I shoot are
Personality Ethic discussion, but
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:that's what people want to watch.
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:This is what I want to talk about.
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:So, I'm going to go figure
out how to slowly evolve.
414
:The conversation Brant, I
appreciate you being here, man.
415
:I appreciate you just being every time we
connect, I take something away from that.
416
:That's not pandering by the way.
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:I really mean it every time you're on a
call, even when you're quiet, like you'll
418
:pipe up and say one thing and I'll be
like, well, that made the call for me.
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:So.
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:That's my feedback for you today.
421
:If you're watching or
listening, go to papercutssuck.
422
:com Pre order the e book.
423
:If you catch this after August 10th, you
can buy the e book, the print version.
424
:I buy print of everything, by the way,
because I like writing in books now.
425
:Which I know is sacrilegious,
but it helps with my retention.
426
:You can listen listen to our boy
Brent Perkins support an author.
427
:If you want some consulting, it
sounds like he's an assassin.
428
:And I imagine they can connect
with you by going to 3xbold.
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:com.
430
:The number, the paper cuts suck there too.
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:Yeah.
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:Okay.
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:All roads lead back to paper cuts up.
434
:Cool.
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:I shoot a video every day.
436
:Like comment, subscribe.
437
:I love y'all.
438
:I'll talk to you later.
439
:Peace.
