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S1 E19: There's always incremental improvements laying around (Kyle / @KyleShevlin)
Episode 1927th October 2022 • WebJoy • Eddie Hinkle
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Kyle Shevlin joins the show to talk about his origin story from studying psychology and being a pastor, to working with jQuery and eventually getting cozy working on internet front-end tooling.

We discuss the differences between being a product engineer and being an internal tools-based engineer, before diving into more philosophical conversations about how everything can be improved.

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Transcripts

Eddie:

Welcome to episode 19 of the Web Joy podcast.

Eddie:

I'm your host, Eddie.

Eddie:

In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what

Eddie:

makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community.

Eddie:

I hope you enjoy today's episode.

Eddie:

There's always incremental improvements lying around with Kyle Chevlin.

Eddie:

Welcome to another episode of Web Joy.

Eddie:

I'm excited to have Kyle with us today.

Eddie:

Hey Kyle, how are you doing?

Kyle:

I'm doing good, Eddie, how about you?

Kyle:

Yeah,

Eddie:

I'm doing pretty good as well.

Eddie:

Well, hey, we typically start off an episode where you just kind of give a

Eddie:

general introduction about yourself, who you are, what you do, uh, where you.

Eddie:

Simple basics.

Kyle:

Sure.

Kyle:

Uh, well, I'm Kyle Chevlin.

Kyle:

I'm a platform engineer at a healthcare startup.

Kyle:

I'm not gonna drop the name, uh, just because I actually

Kyle:

haven't put it anywhere.

Kyle:

It's not a secret.

Kyle:

I'm just doing my small bit of like, defiance to like, say, you

Kyle:

know, where we work probably isn't as important as like what we do.

Kyle:

But if it's meaningful to you, that's great.

Kyle:

But to me, I'm just kind of tired of it, and so I, I haven't put it on my resume.

Kyle:

It's not on my Twitter, it's not on LinkedIn or anything.

Kyle:

So I work at a healthcare startup as part of a front end platform team.

Kyle:

Specifically, I am building out essentially eternal tools

Kyle:

and libraries to support.

Kyle:

The other engineers that are building product for our company, our company

Kyle:

helps people who have type two diabetes be able to honestly get off of their

Kyle:

medications through a diet and through some other things that we help them

Kyle:

do by connecting them with, uh, specialists and that kind of thing.

Kyle:

So I am helping people build product faster is kind of how I think.

Kyle:

At the

Eddie:

time of this recording, no one actually knows this, but by the time this

Eddie:

airs, I will actually be helping lead a internal front end tools team as well.

Eddie:

So, uh, that's great.

Eddie:

Kindred Spirits.

Eddie:

. Kyle: Congrats on the new job.

Eddie:

Thanks.

Eddie:

Yeah, internal shift.

Eddie:

Fun to actually tell someone since no one knows

Eddie:

. Kyle: Right.

Eddie:

You can't, you know, haven't had that chance to get that, uh,

Eddie:

internet dopamine yet about it.

Eddie:

Right.

Eddie:

No, I'm just, I'm just

Eddie:

kidding.

Eddie:

Exactly.

Eddie:

, that's what we crave, right?

Eddie:

Yeah.

Eddie:

So what's the short version of your story, right?

Eddie:

How did you get into intern or tools, uh, front end development, right?

Eddie:

Is that where you started?

Eddie:

Kind of give us a brief overview of what that journey looked.

Kyle:

My journey is not brief, but I will try

Kyle:

I think people who, who maybe know who I am, uh, through Twitter or

Kyle:

through my own blogging, know that this is a second career for me.

Kyle:

I was originally a pastor long ago.

Kyle:

Um, I have a master's in theology and that's.

Kyle:

Just something I did and I started coding a little over 10 years ago.

Kyle:

Now, honestly, on a whim, someone posted a Code Academy link on Facebook.

Kyle:

I followed it.

Kyle:

I did my ADHD thing where I, you know, just dove in and I just kept doing it and,

Kyle:

and then one day someone was like, You know, you can get a job doing this, right?

Kyle:

Cause I had.

Kyle:

Considered it as a career.

Kyle:

It just wasn't something on my mind.

Kyle:

And uh, they told me to go get a job and I did.

Kyle:

It was lucky timing.

Kyle:

Honestly, it was before like the proliferation of boot camps.

Kyle:

It was a good time to enter the market, and I joined as a front

Kyle:

end developer because that's largely what I could teach myself.

Kyle:

Html, CSS, and J Query, which is all I really knew.

Kyle:

I didn't even, I can't even say I knew JavaScript.

Kyle:

I knew J Query and just a little bit of it, so I joined.

Kyle:

Like a design centric agency, like a, like an agency that

Kyle:

built a lot of brand websites.

Kyle:

And like my very first year, I just can't forget this, it was so formative,

Kyle:

but I worked on like 80 different projects and most of it was like

Kyle:

adding a little bit of UI or fixing some styling bug or something, or

Kyle:

you know, it was stuff like that.

Kyle:

And I got really, really good at css.

Kyle:

I've never understood the people who are like, Oh, I can't do

Kyle:

CSS just because that's what I.

Kyle:

So I actually have a little struggle having that, that empathy, because

Kyle:

that's kind of what I started on and then built the other skills.

Kyle:

And then how I've gotten to like being an internal tools platforming engineer.

Kyle:

I think that has a lot to do with a couple things.

Kyle:

I'm an idealist by nature, so I want things to be right, and

Kyle:

I want to do things right for the sake of doing them right.

Kyle:

I'm very lawful good in that, that regard.

Kyle:

Um, if you're a, you know, you're into d and d and you, you know,

Kyle:

your character breakdowns that way.

Kyle:

And I think the other thing is I'm also naturally like a systems thinker.

Kyle:

I often joke that I'm a forest person, not a tree person.

Kyle:

Honestly, sometimes, depending on the detail, the individual tree, it's

Kyle:

just really tedious and boring to me.

Kyle:

I'll lose it.

Kyle:

But like I.

Kyle:

Almost immediately hear something and see the greater impact it'll

Kyle:

have or can understand how it fits in the greater system.

Kyle:

And so building tools that kind of do that, like build systems that

Kyle:

help people do the right thing as, as silly as that sounds, that

Kyle:

that really fits with who I am.

Kyle:

And then I think the last thing.

Kyle:

I like sharing things.

Kyle:

I've learned, uh, like I like teaching in some capacity, and that

Kyle:

capacity has changed a lot throughout my career, but, Being an internal

Kyle:

tooling dev, that's kind of my job.

Kyle:

My job is to find patterns that are like, No, this isn't great, and here's why.

Kyle:

You know, I, I know you are a busy dev, working the fast you

Kyle:

can, but here's a better way.

Kyle:

And then coming up with ways to make sure that.

Kyle:

They can't fall into bad habits, like, you know, whether it's as simple as an Slint

Kyle:

rule or maybe I just, like, I don't give them the option to screw up in some way,

Kyle:

maybe through types or something else.

Kyle:

Uh, like, I'll give an example.

Kyle:

I work mostly in React and React Native.

Kyle:

Now, I think most people who work in React know that there's a style.

Kyle:

Available.

Kyle:

Well, you know, I can make it type safe that you can't use style like the

Kyle:

prop to override things, but that's not safe enough for me cuz I know some

Kyle:

of you out there are gonna work around me and you're gonna put like a ts

Kyle:

ignore and you're gonna write your own styles and I'm gonna let that happen.

Kyle:

So I literally destructure it and use a Ts expect error.

Kyle:

I don't assign it to the underlying component.

Kyle:

You just can't do it.

Kyle:

I keep you from doing it at run time cuz I know you, I know how you work.

Kyle:

And so, you know, sometimes it's about like gently guiding and other times it's

Kyle:

about putting a really strong barricade and saying, No, you can't break my system.

Kyle:

So sorry.

Eddie:

That is awesome.

Eddie:

All of you putting TIAs ignores everywhere.

Eddie:

Uh, including the people at my own company.

Eddie:

Kyle sees you

Eddie:

. Kyle: I mean, why do you think

Eddie:

prevent, uh, from happening?

Eddie:

It's like I see it all over the place.

Eddie:

I'm paying attention, you know, So

Eddie:

. Eddie: That's right.

Eddie:

That's awesome.

Eddie:

What is it that kind of keeps you excited about working in tech?

Eddie:

Right, in develop.

Eddie:

You, you kind of addressed a little bit of it, right?

Eddie:

Like you like to have things working properly.

Eddie:

Right.

Eddie:

And that kind of leans towards the internal tools, but yeah, I guess

Eddie:

what keeps you passionate about

Kyle:

what you do?

Kyle:

That's a really good question, and I think, I think the answer is

Kyle:

like, it's a multitude of things.

Kyle:

I mean, one, let's be real.

Kyle:

There's good money in this career and that does help.

Kyle:

Like it helps you get through the bad times.

Kyle:

It helps you realize like you could be doing other things that are much

Kyle:

harder and, and frankly, I mean, I'm just really fortunate, Like I changed

Kyle:

careers at a good time and I've seen how like for example, my finances have

Kyle:

improved my life because of this career versus my friends who are still in

Kyle:

ministry or struggling or something.

Kyle:

So super lucky there, and it would just be, it wouldn't be

Kyle:

realistic not to acknowledge that, so I have to acknowledge that.

Kyle:

The other thing, I think it just, it's always fit my brain.

Kyle:

Even before coding, I had the wildest education journey.

Kyle:

I started as an engineering major, like mechanical engineering.

Kyle:

I have a double major in philosophy and mathematics because I had enough math

Kyle:

credits that when I switch, Philosophy.

Kyle:

I already had the major done.

Kyle:

It was not a wise decision, by the way.

Kyle:

It's just, it's just something a 19 year old me did without knowing any better.

Kyle:

I didn't have any guidance in my life.

Kyle:

That's a story for another podcast and a therapist probably.

Kyle:

So I've just always had a brain that could, you know, analyze things, break 'em

Kyle:

down, maybe figure out how they work, or just kind of enjoyed that kind of puzzle.

Kyle:

And coming up with solutions kind of thing.

Kyle:

So that certainly helps.

Kyle:

It's nice to have like problems to focus on, to work through, I think.

Kyle:

I think other things that keep me kind of passionate are, I love

Kyle:

the idea that there's just always incremental improvement laying around.

Kyle:

Like you can go learn.

Kyle:

A new technique and you never know when it might be a useful

Kyle:

addition to your repertoire.

Kyle:

I guess related to that is like how like learning a concept can maybe just

Kyle:

transform the way you think and I've kind of always enjoyed transforming

Kyle:

the way I think like you don't pursue degrees and philosophy and theology if

Kyle:

you're not willing to hear an idea or a concept wrestle with it and come away.

Kyle:

With different ideas and be a different person or something like that.

Kyle:

And I, to some degree, I think that happens in coding.

Kyle:

Like I, I'll give an example.

Kyle:

Many people who know me on Twitter know I have a course on state machines,

Kyle:

and I've really enjoyed learning about them over the years, even though to

Kyle:

this day I've still never gotten to use them in production at a company.

Kyle:

Like I have a fullon course on 'em.

Kyle:

I think they're great, but I've never gotten to use 'em.

Kyle:

There's always some pushback somewhere.

Kyle:

I think I might finally be at a place where we can, my managers

Kyle:

like onboard another team is like, Oh yeah, we want to use those.

Kyle:

So might quite get there.

Kyle:

But what I'm getting at is like, regardless of never being able to use

Kyle:

like X State, it radically changed how I think about programming.

Kyle:

You know, you go from these variables that represent infinite uh, data.

Kyle:

To understanding that things actually mostly progress

Kyle:

through a set of finite states.

Kyle:

And when you start to see that, you actually start to see states

Kyle:

that you didn't know were there.

Kyle:

I was explaining something to my wife the other day and I was like, You know,

Kyle:

you might have something where like a light switch is on or off, for example,

Kyle:

but there is something there in the time it takes you to move the switch.

Kyle:

And I was specifically talking about animations.

Kyle:

You would have a state of that transition.

Kyle:

Right.

Kyle:

And when you start to learn to think that way, I think it just changes the

Kyle:

way you look at a lot of programming.

Kyle:

And so, I don't know.

Kyle:

I feel like all those things kind of keep me interested in it.

Kyle:

I, I kind of went everywhere, but that's what I always do.

Kyle:

My apologies for my ADHD brain

Kyle:

. Eddie: No, that's really

Kyle:

In some ways swing it back around to your philosophy degree, like

Kyle:

that's kind of profound because people oftentimes feel unsettled when

Kyle:

they are in a state of transition.

Kyle:

Mm-hmm.

Kyle:

, and I kind of feel like identifying that you are actually in a definitive

Kyle:

state and like, okay, if I'm in this state, what are the attributes

Kyle:

of the state I should be in?

Kyle:

Like, what should I be doing in this?

Kyle:

Because normally they're like, Well, I'm not this thing yet, right?

Kyle:

I'm not turned on yet.

Kyle:

I'm not turned off yet.

Kyle:

And I was like, Well, what properties belong to you in this state of transition?

Kyle:

I feel like I don't know you.

Kyle:

You hit something really deep there.

Kyle:

That's cool.

Kyle:

Well, I guess I could kind of see that.

Kyle:

I think I've, I think to kind of add to that, People often hear on my journey

Kyle:

and they're like, How'd you end up here?

Kyle:

And I think, I think people maybe don't recognize that there's really

Kyle:

a ton of overlap, like of all these things, like learning to think

Kyle:

like philosophy was mostly just learning to think analytically.

Kyle:

And that's a skill that's used everywhere.

Kyle:

I mean, that's why PhD stands for philosophy of that thing, right?

Kyle:

Whatever you happen to study.

Kyle:

And so I guess I had, I'm, I'm sure I have, but I, I've never really thought

Kyle:

of it as, Maybe we do all focus on our personal transitions and not

Kyle:

our current states, or vice versa.

Kyle:

That's a really interesting thing.

Kyle:

I think we need another podcast for that one.

Kyle:

. Eddie: Yeah, definitely.

Kyle:

We'll, we'll book that one.

Kyle:

Stay tuned to everyone.

Kyle:

Um, . So kind of one of the main things we come around to on this podcast is talking

Kyle:

about things that bring people joy.

Kyle:

And I've noticed that, you know, you kind of have this motto, right, That you enjoy

Kyle:

leaving things better than you find them.

Kyle:

And I just really love that.

Kyle:

So I was curious if we could spend some time where you kind of talked to us

Kyle:

around how you came around to this thought pattern and kind of how it intersects

Kyle:

with your life and your job and, and

Kyle:

that stuff.

Kyle:

Sure.

Kyle:

I don't think it was a conscious choice.

Kyle:

I think to some degree it's who I am, and I think it could be a bit, because I don't

Kyle:

wanna say things are causational, but there's probably some high correlations

Kyle:

with the fact that I'm neuro divergent and maybe there's some degree of rigid.

Kyle:

I kind of look at myself sometimes as a, a relatively like black

Kyle:

and white rigid kind of thing.

Kyle:

I, it's not that I don't understand nuance, it's like, but once I've

Kyle:

made up my mind literally about something, until you really give me

Kyle:

extremely compelling evidence, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand here.

Kyle:

And I think that applies to like what I mean by improving, while improving

Kyle:

involves change, like the constant.

Kyle:

I always want to improve, like the things I pursue and the things I do

Kyle:

in my life, whether it's coding or like, probably the biggest endeavor

Kyle:

I've done in my entire life is golf.

Kyle:

I took up golf in high school.

Kyle:

I played lots of sports, but I took that one up in high school as

Kyle:

well, and I played collegiately.

Kyle:

I was an all American at the junior college level.

Kyle:

I went on to play more and I thought about turning pro and.

Kyle:

The truth is I didn't because I didn't have money, but looking back like that

Kyle:

was probably a wise decision, even without having the money to try it.

Kyle:

But even to this day, I still practice every single day.

Kyle:

I have a net and a mat in my garage.

Kyle:

I have a putt green in my basement.

Kyle:

I am.

Kyle:

Probably better than I was in college at this point, and I do it because

Kyle:

it's an impossible to perfect thing.

Kyle:

It just really tickles something in my brain to constantly pursue

Kyle:

this impossible to perfect.

Kyle:

Thing.

Kyle:

And it's, it's not just that, like when I was doing music, you can see

Kyle:

on the video camera behind me, I have, I have music equipment behind me.

Kyle:

You know, I was constantly trying to get better at that.

Kyle:

Whether it's be music production or songwriting or

Kyle:

something, I just really enjoy.

Kyle:

It's weird.

Kyle:

The things don't necessarily like make me happy.

Kyle:

But the recognition of improvement or just the feeling of improvement,

Kyle:

that really speaks to me another way.

Kyle:

Like video games, like I don't play video games that like make me happy.

Kyle:

I play video games that I get better at.

Kyle:

Like, as silly as it sounds like, uh, like Rocket League is probably the one

Kyle:

I've played the most the last few years.

Kyle:

And why do I like it?

Kyle:

Because the skill ceiling is unattainable.

Kyle:

Like the ceiling just keeps getting moved up.

Kyle:

Now I.

Kyle:

Personal skills, ceiling.

Kyle:

My thumbs are not amazing.

Kyle:

They're like the least coordinated digits on my body, but I can

Kyle:

see how I've progressed and how I get better and, and that.

Kyle:

That triggers something for me, that pursuit of improvement.

Kyle:

So it's weird.

Kyle:

It's like that's a constant, I think all things should pursue improvement.

Kyle:

I look at the world and I'm like, Why wouldn't you try to get better?

Kyle:

And it's why I get mad about all sorts of things is like, there are common sense

Kyle:

actions you can take to do better or there are common sense actions you can take

Kyle:

to be safer or, or something like that.

Kyle:

Like, and.

Kyle:

I just kind of look at that and that's a constant, like I just expect

Kyle:

people should pursue the same thing as me, and that's, that's how I'm

Kyle:

rigid, but I love the changing that comes from pursuing improvement.

Kyle:

I hope that makes

Eddie:

sense.

Eddie:

Nice.

Eddie:

Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense.

Eddie:

I guess how does that, you know, as you're dealing with code as a

Eddie:

programmer, how do you balance that?

Eddie:

Right.

Eddie:

How do you balance improving things versus building things, right, Like shipping.

Eddie:

Yeah, exactly.

Eddie:

, yeah.

Eddie:

How do you improve it and

Kyle:

actually ship?

Kyle:

No, I think that's why I'm a platform engineer, right?

Kyle:

Like I, I realized one of the challenges I had was as a product engineer,

Kyle:

I feel like there's unfortunately like a natural antagonism between.

Kyle:

Um, doing quality engineering and product, and I think it's because, you know,

Kyle:

maybe we're motivated differently, but also it's like product lives and dies

Kyle:

by like what they're able to tell the business they've actually accomplished.

Kyle:

Like, you know, what their slide decks and their meetings and also

Kyle:

like what revenue does that bring in?

Kyle:

Like that's how they're going to achieve success versus like, As an engineer, my,

Kyle:

maybe my inclination is not to think of successes, how much dollars I've done,

Kyle:

but, but you know, it could be, it could definitely be a metric, like, especially

Kyle:

like if you're a backend engineer and you can like literally see like, you

Kyle:

know, if I fix this, uh, this function here, this throughput here, whatever, I

Kyle:

save the company X thousands of dollars.

Kyle:

Great.

Kyle:

It's a good metric for you.

Kyle:

But as a front end engineer, I think my metrics tend to be a little

Kyle:

more difficult to touch to underst.

Kyle:

I can't tell you how much more money, uh, more delightful experience gave

Kyle:

without somebody else doing some kind of like analytics and, uh,

Kyle:

economic breakdown, stuff like that.

Kyle:

So I feel like there's that, that antagonism.

Kyle:

And if you're a product engineer, you unfortunately have to balance it.

Kyle:

You have to learn.

Kyle:

You want to be successful, you have to deliver product, and that

Kyle:

should probably be your focus.

Kyle:

But that's why I pursued work where my stakeholders aren't my product

Kyle:

manager and the users directly, but my stakeholders are the other devs.

Kyle:

Like do the other devs feel like it's easier to do their.

Kyle:

Do the other devs feel like they're less likely to run into

Kyle:

the problems they did in the past?

Kyle:

Do the other devs feel like they're being successful?

Kyle:

By using the tools and the systems we create, that's a win-win for me.

Kyle:

That means I get to sit here and I get to fixate on little details

Kyle:

that actually really matter.

Kyle:

Um, things like a system is all all about balancing.

Kyle:

Enabling and disabling what power do I give you versus what powers do I

Kyle:

restrict, you know, and, and really thinking through, like, I'm writing

Kyle:

a blog post right now about how, you know, props on a component do that.

Kyle:

Like some props are expanders, like they expand the possibilities of what

Kyle:

can happen, like children or, um, anything that can take an infinite

Kyle:

state, like a string or a number like.

Kyle:

That's going to expand what this thing can do, um, versus props that are restrictive.

Kyle:

Like they only allow a certain set of, of things to happen.

Kyle:

And both are good.

Kyle:

But you really have to think about when you're designing something to, for reuse

Kyle:

to be reused by a lot of people, how do those things that power, that enabling,

Kyle:

that disabling, how does that impact everyone that's going to use this?

Kyle:

And so, I don't know, lucky for.

Kyle:

That really fits the way I like to think anyway, finding work

Kyle:

that fits that way works for me.

Kyle:

Like the hardest part is convincing people like that.

Kyle:

It's worth paying me for that stuff.

Kyle:

Cause you know, like when things are good, I think it, I think

Kyle:

everyone's like, Oh yeah, let's, let's make it easier for everyone.

Kyle:

But at the end of the day, You know, I think by the time this comes out, there's

Kyle:

been plenty of companies with layoffs.

Kyle:

Uh, I've definitely talked to people on internal teams that are, that have

Kyle:

concerns that proving that you have value and you add value can be a little more

Kyle:

challenging when your work is foundational versus on the edge, like on where the

Kyle:

user actually interacts with stuff.

Kyle:

So, I don't know.

Kyle:

It's a double edged sword.

Kyle:

I.

Eddie:

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Eddie:

Right?

Eddie:

The more of a supportive role you play, the less clear cut your value is.

Eddie:

And particularly like if it's a big supportive team that is like,

Eddie:

Well, you know, how big does this supportive team actually need to be?

Eddie:

Yeah.

Eddie:

So yeah, I can definitely see that.

Eddie:

See that playing a.

Eddie:

Wow.

Eddie:

So that's interesting how that has kind of shaped where you work.

Eddie:

And I totally, I've so far spent most of my career in a product

Eddie:

engineering role, so I totally agree.

Eddie:

Like right, like I've been trained to think through tradeoffs

Eddie:

of quality versus shipping.

Eddie:

Speed, quality and speed are constantly like balanced.

Eddie:

Anytime I'm working on something and it's like you talk to the

Eddie:

product manager and you're like, Oh.

Eddie:

Well, you know, how important is it that it does this extra feature?

Eddie:

Cause we could get it out faster if we cut that one feature.

Eddie:

You know, like

Eddie:

. Kyle: Yep.

Eddie:

You do it all the time.

Eddie:

You know, you cut scope, you cut scope, you cut scope.

Eddie:

I think one of the things that's really useful about this kind of

Eddie:

job for the way my brain works is.

Eddie:

I have a lot of autonomy to, as I'm going, like, I'm improving the

Eddie:

system and I see something, it's not a big deal for me to make another

Eddie:

ticket and go and just keep going.

Eddie:

And, and as long as everything's building towards like the

Eddie:

goal we have, that's fine.

Eddie:

I, I'm also, you know, uh, I'm not the biggest stickler of like

Eddie:

roadmaps and sprints and all that.

Eddie:

I'm definitely a bit more of.

Eddie:

Just put things on a board and let's go.

Eddie:

Like, let's not worry about points.

Eddie:

They're all made up.

Eddie:

They don't matter.

Eddie:

You know, stuff like that.

Eddie:

You, you don't want me as your agile, uh, coach or anything like that.

Eddie:

This time.

Eddie:

I will swear you can blur it out, but I'm letting you know, it's, um, have you

Eddie:

ever seen J F d I just fucking do it so.

Eddie:

Kind of a believer of that.

Eddie:

Well, if you ever decide that you need to get a job as an

Eddie:

agile something, let me know and we'll take down this episode.

Eddie:

. Kyle: All right.

Eddie:

Yeah, yeah.

Eddie:

No, no.

Eddie:

I'll stand by this till I die.

Eddie:

Sounds good.

Eddie:

Well, hey, as we're wrapping up, I was just curious, like how does this kind

Eddie:

of play in your personal life, right?

Eddie:

Is there any way in which you kind of approach.

Eddie:

This just in, Yeah.

Eddie:

More, you know, where there's hobbies or how you go about

Eddie:

your day or productivity or

Kyle:

whatever.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I mean, I think we've already touched a bit about how pursuing improvement

Kyle:

and leaving things better really.

Kyle:

Means something to me.

Kyle:

Like for instance, uh, we bought our first home right before the, the lockdown.

Kyle:

And so, you know, slowly but surely I'm improving things here and I have

Kyle:

designs and plans and stuff like that.

Kyle:

So there's things like that.

Kyle:

I think there's also ways, like I just ask myself a lot, uh, not that I necessarily

Kyle:

come up with good answers, but I ask myself things like, like, are there

Kyle:

changes I can make that would improve my.

Kyle:

That would maybe get me more time with friends, for example, or,

Kyle:

uh, give me more opportunities to spend doing activities I enjoy.

Kyle:

I'll give an example.

Kyle:

I don't do this every Thursday, but one of the things I was doing when I, uh, was

Kyle:

pursuing work was made sure that I told them like, Hey, there's a group of guys.

Kyle:

I play with golf every Sunday, but they also play Thursdays afternoons.

Kyle:

How cool are you with.

Kyle:

Splitting off in the afternoon, going and playing, and then coming

Kyle:

back and work in the evening.

Kyle:

And it, you know, if they balked at it, I balked at them.

Kyle:

But the way I look at it, two things.

Kyle:

I live in the Pacific Northwest.

Kyle:

Sunlight is a precious commodity.

Kyle:

I gotta take advantage of it while it's there, but two.

Kyle:

You know, time is a precious commodity.

Kyle:

Like one of the ways you can be wealthy in this world is to have freedom with your

Kyle:

time, and it's really hard to achieve.

Kyle:

And so finding people that will be okay with that or allow you at least the

Kyle:

flexibility to maybe control your time a little bit more can be really meaningful.

Kyle:

And so for me that's, that's one of the ways, like I kind of apply all that to my.

Kyle:

Honestly a part of it is it it, and this kind of goes back to philosophy,

Kyle:

theology, and all that is like, it's just really thinking about how time is finite.

Kyle:

And I think there's potentially even more pressure on it due to things like.

Kyle:

Anything from like, uh, climate change to all sorts of other potential

Kyle:

issues and crises that might happen that affect things like economics

Kyle:

and communities and all that.

Kyle:

So part of me is like, I might as well do the things I enjoy now while I can.

Kyle:

Because I don't know if they're gonna be here in 30 years.

Kyle:

I play with a bunch of old retirees, and I joke with them about that all the time.

Kyle:

They're like, in their sixties and seventies, they play

Kyle:

four or five times a week.

Kyle:

And I know people have their qualms with golf and I, I get it.

Kyle:

I really do actually get it.

Kyle:

I, I think they'd be surprised that I, that I actually understand

Kyle:

why they're upset with it.

Kyle:

But it's just a, it's just the most challenging activity that I've

Kyle:

ever done in my life and enjoy.

Kyle:

I enjoy it in a very different way than probably they think, But my point.

Kyle:

It might not be there.

Kyle:

When I'm at the age of retirement, we might not get to retirement.

Kyle:

So I'm gonna try and enjoy it while I can and enjoy whatever else in

Kyle:

my life that I can, while I can.

Eddie:

No, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Eddie:

And I think lots of times we can shut down our ideas of growth and progress

Eddie:

because we think, Well, I can't do that.

Eddie:

Right.

Eddie:

And so it's just, I think in some ways, like you were talking about with your

Eddie:

house, allowing yourself, What could be better and don't shut it down immediately.

Eddie:

And then you can make a plan and you can say, This won't be tomorrow,

Eddie:

but maybe I'll do this in six months or a year or two years.

Eddie:

And allowing yourself, you know, um, to make the most

Eddie:

important things happen today.

Eddie:

Cuz like you said, you know, Yeah.

Eddie:

Who knows what tomorrow

Kyle:

holds.

Kyle:

Who knows?

Kyle:

I sure don't.

Kyle:

Yep.

Eddie:

Awesome.

Eddie:

Well, Kyle, thank you so much for joining me.

Eddie:

Uh, it's been just a delight to chat and kind of talk through your,

Eddie:

your worldview and your experiences as a developer and, uh, yeah.

Eddie:

Appreciate

Kyle:

it.

Kyle:

Yeah, thank you Eddie.

Kyle:

I glad to be here and, um, had a lot of

Kyle:

fun.

Eddie:

Thank you for joining us for episode 19.

Eddie:

There's always incremental improvements lying around with Kyle Chevlin.

Eddie:

You can find out more about Kyle on his Twitter at Kyle Chevlin

Eddie:

or his website, kyle chevlin.com.

Eddie:

He has a brand.

Eddie:

You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode,

Eddie:

as well as a link to Kyle's Twitter and website in the show notes.

Eddie:

If you didn't get it.

Eddie:

If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well.

Eddie:

Give us a shout out on Twitter and tag a friend or a coworker

Eddie:

that you think would enjoy it.

Eddie:

And don't forget to follow us on Twitter to stay up to date at web Joy fm.

Eddie:

Thank you for listening and have a great day.