And so fuel. By that she dove into becoming a doula and birth work and educating, and this is just gonna be an incredible conversation with he, he from the birth lounge.

HeHe: Thanks so much for having me, Trish. Yeah, I'm HeHe. I'm the creator of the Birth Lounge and the host of the Birth Lounge podcast and I've been in childbirth education for the last 10 years being a doula at bedside, teaching childbirth education classes, helping dads understand what their role is and helping people bridge the connection between themselves and their birth goals and their medical team because I find a lot of times it can feel like us versus them, but at the end of the day, we're actually all in the on the same team.

And so that's what I teach people.

And so, I found out that I did not like being the doula. I am used to having more power in the room. Yeah, and so I that's kind of why I wanted to talk to you about that because I knew Oh, wait. No, this is not not the right thing now I am a 16 year labor and delivery nurse and heard labor nurse was very new So I was not about to see ashley go back to the or for some dumb ass reasons.

HeHe: Yeah

Trish: from when that happened in the beginning

HeHe: Yeah, absolutely.

Really sensitive places and places that things can actually go wrong really quickly and they can go wrong Just really really intensely. We need you need a support system and that includes therapy in terms of You know being in the bedside and what that feels like I mean For me, I think it comes down to knowing that everybody is responsible for themselves.

And so I'm really lucky in regards that when I'm in the birth room with someone, I have worked with that couple for upwards of six, seven, eight months. Most of our clients are getting signed up with us by about eight to 12 weeks pregnant. And so I've had the privilege of getting to know them and knowing their goals and knowing their whys and knowing what's important to them and understanding what they truly do desire out of their birth.

You've never met this person. That's going to be a different experience now I've seen people i've worked with for months and months be taken advantage of in the birth room and it it Crushes me. I mean I typically Not in the birth room in the birth room. I'm always very Professional and I support them no matter what.

Now, a lot of times you do walk away, and you go, Oh my god, thank God we talked about that in one of our prenatal classes, because they could have very easily said yes to that, or they could have very easily said no to that, and they really needed it. But sometimes, I don't know. Sometimes the hospital tactics are just better than you and, and you do watch people you love get taken advantage of by the system and that's tough.

That's really hard.

Trish: Yeah. And I, and I told you my story that I just got sick because my hands are tied bedside as your nurse, unless, unless the patient refuses, then I can go to bat for you. But the truth of the matter is, is that. And this is why I started doing what I'm doing is that when mom's in labor, her really only job is to labor.

Do you have some kind of process for that?

HeHe: Yeah, absolutely. So what I teach people, so if they find themselves in a situation where they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't, I, we didn't, we didn't talk about this. This is a situation we weren't prepared for. First, first step always, take a deep breath. And remind yourself that this is not an emergency because if you are having the time to have a conversation like it's not, they're gently bringing things to you.

Yeah, exactly. Like then that means you have the time to take a deep breath and evaluate your options. And then you're going to ask questions, right? Maybe that question looks Can I have 10 minutes to just wrap my head around what you just told me and we'll be ready to have conversation Maybe you know the questions.

You can also clear the room and it be just you and your partner and you call just your nurse back in. You just want to hear what your nurse says. It doesn't have to be this big grandiose community event. Clear the room and then slowly let people in as you filter through them, you know? As far as a code, yes, obviously I'm a very expressive person with my face, so I think it's always probably very clear on my face.

Are there any questions that I'm not thinking of? Is there anything that I haven't asked that I still need to know to make this decision? If I'm in the room with you, it usually looks like you're saying like, He he, what should I be asking? And that's kind of code for like, he he, what's on your mind?

Tell us your opinion. And you know, I'm, I'm a very assertive doula. And so, If there's a conversation happening and no one has actually addressed me, I will actually speak up and if you were my client, I would say, Trish, I have a couple thoughts. Are you interested in hearing that? Or, hey Trish, I have something that hasn't been talked about.

I'm kind of going off on a tangent, but I want to touch on tangents and this is, this is a good one. You know, you talked about nurses having their hands tied. Doulas in a sense have our hands tied as well. So it kind of depends on what kind of doula you want to be. But in my practice and what my team does is we're.

We are always very conscious of our relationship with that hospital and those doctors. Now, if we're ever backed into a corner, we have to choose. I want to make sure that we make it very clear. I will always choose my clients. So will my doulas. We will always choose them. We work for them. But that doesn't mean that we will choose them at the expense of my clients.

And again, we are not talking about the expense of a doctor or a hospital just because. We're always trying to find that middle ground. We're always trying to, and you shared this when you guest appeared on the birth launch podcast, but you said, we don't decline stuff just to decline it as well. You talked about two like baby baby compromises.

And so a good doula will read the room. If this mom looks like she's holding back and she looks like she has something to say but she's not able to say it, a good doula will speak up and say, Trish, do you have something that's on your mind? Trish, you don't look like you're 100 percent confident in this choice.

Do you still have questions? Do you still have things you want to talk about? But, If that doctor is suggesting something and that mom is a hundred percent on board and she's totally good with it You definitely especially if it's a lie, you definitely have room to say Trish are you feeling good in this conversation?

She seems respected. She seems like she has said everything. You asked her if she had more questions. She said, no, you asked if she wanted to hear what your opinion was. She said, no, she felt good. A good doula will let that be. Yeah, because that could cause trauma. Oh my god, it, it's not right. It almost always does cause trauma.

That mom almost always walks away saying, Well, I was confident until my doula really pushed me, and then she made me feel bad for the decisions I was making. And we never, ever want that. As a doula, that is not your job. Your job is to make sure that no matter what decision is being made, whether you agree or you don't agree.

Well, he, he, what would you do? I always say it doesn't matter what I would do, but would you like to hear what some of the data suggest? Would you like to hear what the most, the most up to date research says that may help inform your decision. It doesn't matter what I would choose as he, he, but it does matter that you have all the information to make that decision confidently.

Trish: I love that so much. So on the flip side, do you think there are doulas who struggle with that?

We really want to do this. Are you a hundred thousand percent positive that this is what you want to choose? That's a really tough place to be you need therapy You need to work through your own stuff and I say that as somebody who as a new doula I had to navigate that I had to learn when is it appropriate to speak up?

I had to learn when do I hold my tongue? I had to learn how do I approach this health care provider this nurse this doctor this anesthesiologist? They're the scariest of them all they are so scary Anesthesiologists are you know, how do I approach? this healthcare professional who may or may not respect my role as a doula in a respectful way but also that, that approaches them and lets them know, hey, I'm on your team.

And I wanted to make sure that we did speak about it before she made that decision. Because she deserves to have that information. But it also means that you don't go, well, Dr. Trish is lying. She's clearly a liar. She's obviously trying to cut you open. Her whole goal must be to get home at five o'clock so she can go to dinner.

That will, that will always taint that. And you don't want It'll taint your relationship with her too. You don't want to be that person in her birth memory that did that in her birth. So a better way might be to say. You know, one thing we didn't talk about was the risk of c section for you and your baby.

It is just simply to bring space and to bring acknowledgement to that topic. Is this something we want to think about? Is this thing something we want to discuss? Is this something that we should talk about before you make this decision? And that for me is the fine line of being a good doula and a disruptive doula.

Trish: Yeah. And I love, I love one thing you said is that if she is confident, if she has made that decision.

And we know it's wrong because I've been in the same position. My hands are really tied because I'm employed by these people. But if we start pushing our own agenda, because that's what it is at that point, then we're no better than them. Yeah, yeah, so, it really is about what she wants.

Is this her agenda or is this my agenda? Is this what she wants for her birth or is this what I want for her birth? And those are very different things. What she wants. I promise you nobody will make a decision that will absolutely give them trauma if they feel informed. If they know all their options, they will make the choice that leaves them with least trauma.

You can never make that decision for someone because you just don't know what is going to be traumatic for them and what's not. And they will know every time.

And so that was really hard for me as a labor nurse as well. But again, it's about what they want, period. You know, so I love that. I love that you said that because I think we all have the disruptive doctor, the peaceful doctor, disruptive nurse, the disruptive doula, and it really is about what you said, like ultimately what she wants.

But you leave feeling really empowered. And that It was your birth and you loved it.

HeHe: Yeah, and you chose all the pieces to it, right? It really is about who is in control of that room and I think one of the things I love about you so much is that you talk about doctors love to be in control. The hospital system was designed to be in control and I think You know, what you and I really are just pushing people to do, women to do, is you be in control.

I want you making the decisions. Don't let the hospital make decisions for you. Don't decline stuff just because you can, but don't let them make decisions for you. You be the decision maker in your birth, and that is how you are gonna have your best birth. possible. And your best birth is different than her best birth, and it's different than mine, and it's different than theirs, and it's different than your neighbors, and your sisters, and your cousins, and your best friends.

Trish: And I always, I always joke around and say it's like a wedding, right? You would never let everyone else make all the decisions of your wedding.

It's one Time and it's a job for the rest of us. No matter how much we love it. It's still a job It is not going to affect the rest of our lives But it does affect yours and if it's that big of a deal for you, then you should be the one Don't wing it. Don't just be like, Oh, I'll show up. They'll do what I, you know, I'm going to get my epidural.

I don't, I always say like, no, do not just show up. Cause that will lead to trauma.

HeHe: Yeah. Winging it is tough. I've seen people, I've seen people go into birth. And actually wing it and have an amazing birth. One of my closest friends. I am a doula. I've been a doula for years This is her second baby and I am like, please don't wing this don't wing this and she's like I I winged it.

That's also, uh,

Trish: luck because if the, if the pieces are good, you have a good doctor, you have a good nurse and the units and the unit's not busy and everybody's doting on you. Yeah. You might be able to wing it because maybe your nurse has more time to show you some positions and do these different things with you or, you know, but even having a really fast birth can be traumatizing if you don't know what the heck's happening to you.

So. Do you really want to chance it that you'll be the one of how many who have birth trauma That just loved their birth that they were winging The majority of my parents who come to me who've already had a baby are coming to me because that wing it don't work It doesn't

HeHe: work. Oh true That is so true.

I I really i'm encouraging you to have A little bit of education in your back pocket because we net you're right. It just it can work. It's a chance Yeah, it doesn't often. I have something that just like dropped into my head. Can I give some tips for how doulas can go into the hospital and, like, start to facilitate a good relationship?

And a lot of times it is. And you can say, Hey, I'm HeHe. I'm super excited to be here. I've been a doula for X amount of years. So just let them know. If you're new, they're not going to judge you. Just let them know. If you've been a doula for 50 years. They're not going to judge you. Just let them know who you are a little bit about what your goals are.

And this is all, this is quick. You guys, it's while you're walking from the lobby or the, the waiting area to the room where your clients are. By the time you get to that door, you're done with that conversation. It's not an ongoing conversation, but you've introduced yourself. You've told them that you're excited to be there and you're excited to work together.

Again, my name is HeHe, but you can really call me anything. I answer to a lot, okay? Now we've let that nurse know, hey, I'm safe. I'm on your team. We're working together. I'm not going to try and make this some sort of funky space where it's us versus you. I promise. Okay. Then you go into the room, wash your hands, set your stuff down, say hi to your clients, and then really just be, don't try to be making decisions for people.

Don't try to be interfering. Don't try to be reading the monitors. Don't try to be rearranging the room. Now I understand setting. Things like little candles out, keeping the lights dim. One of the things that you can do is if you're going to be changing things in the room, just let your medical staff know why you're doing it.

So we're going to turn them off for now. And maybe if we need them later, we can turn them on. You know, if we need them, it's okay. Or

Trish: the nurse might say, Hey, I'm getting ready to start her IV or do this. And I need the lights up, but as soon as we're done, that would be fine.

HeHe: Totally. Another compromise there is.

You know, would you mind if I turn these, these big overhead lights on and I actually just brought the flashlight on my phone over? Or I actually have this headlamp in my birth bag. Could I just like, hold that over? Like, there's so many compromises.

Trish: Do you really have a headlamp in your birth bag?

HeHe: Sometimes, yeah. So I've had clients who absolutely do not want any lights on. And so then that big, huge light that actually is a lot brighter. I mean, it is just like, it is like, Oh, I'm

Trish: about to turn the lights of God on your vagina. Just giving you a heads

I mean, sometimes people just find that super disruptive. You can have a headlamp and just hand it to the doctor and it will literally keep it contained right there to their vaginal area. It takes a really open doctor. Yeah, I've never seen this in 16

Trish: years. That's why I'm asking.

HeHe: I mean, look, at some point you're going to come across a, a client or a patient that just Is not flexible and they're not going to do it And so you will either compromise to what they want or you just will go without and so I have had clients who say I'm you will not turn that light on and so then I you know And more power to her

Trish: because birth can have here.

They don't want those damn bright lights either. It's awful. And it's But remember what I told you, one of our mantras inside of my, my world is nothing out of convenience or curiosity. That light is convenient for someone. It is not your vagina or your baby or you. It's the doctor. So they can see the playing field.

But birth can happen without them being able to see every little nook and cranny. So I mean, even in that sense, they don't need that headlight either. Now, if, if something happens, that's emergent and that's different. And again, it goes back to, like, we talked about reading the room. If you're doc, you can tell if it's an emergency or it's a convenience.

Well, it's because the environment that she's trying to birth in, you know, and, and she's feeling this tug of war with her provider that they just, they have to have it their way. But then, you know, for a fact, that's not an evidence based decision or that mom knows for a fact that she doesn't want those lights on or better yet.

She knows for a fact she doesn't want to burrs on her back, and that doctor just will not give up, they're relentless. You gotta get on your back, you gotta get on your back, I can't do it this way, I can't see your baby, I definitely cannot deliver your baby this way. And it's like, of course that's gonna disrupt your labor.

Do you have any questions about the doctor that's on call? Do you have any questions about having your waters ruptured and what that may mean for your labor later down the road? Right? doulas are unsure how to speak up in the room. And for me, Questions are, are just a little secret weapon. It is just asking open ended questions.

You have any questions about what the fetal scalp electrode looks like or how it's placed on your baby's head There's nothing that you're not trying to rile up the room. Remember your job That, that was a heavy one though. Cause

Trish: most

of them don't know how it's placed on their head.

HeHe: And a lot of doctors are not up front about it.

It's a clip. It's a sticker. Oh, we just place it. No, it's a little baby tiny corkscrew. We screw that into your baby's head, which sometimes is needed. You don't want to demonize that either, right? We're not trying to demonize any option, but it It's very important that you understand what's happening.

It's needed when it's needed, not out of convenience or curiosity.

You're going to say yes, like you should say yes, there is a reason, and thank God, thank God for technology, thank God we have FSCs, and we have C sections, and we have all those things, because there would be a lot of people who wouldn't be with us. But, on the flip side, it is not needed if maybe mom is fluffy and the nurse can't keep the monitor on her, they don't need to go and screw it into the baby's head.

I always remind people that, you know, the tools that we have were made out of necessity.

Most of the time, they were made because we saw a gap in care and we created a tool to make that better. However, what we have done, especially in the U. S., but birth in general, is we have overutilized almost everything. There is almost nothing in the birth world, right down to surgery. Cervical checks that we don't utilize properly.

I mean, it is like, or that we do utilize properly. Almost everything is over utilized and it is just inserted into birth in places where it's just not needed or appropriate.

She's in labor and they tell her they won't admit her if she won't let them do a cervical exam. And I was like, what, how would you tell her to answer? Like, what would you say to tell her? I said, say no. No, I, they have to. And I was like, here's the truth. They have to admit her. And she said, you would just tell her to say no.

I had this student, Haley, so if Haley's listening, you're a badass. Haley came to me to my fearless birth experience, which is like a five day birth, challenge experience. And at the start of it, she came wanting a scheduled C section. I flipped her mindset. I have, like, I've very. set way of flipping mindsets and She decides not only did she not want a c section she wanted unmedicated She was never gonna have a cervical exam during pregnancy.

She was gonna wait for labor to start So her doctor was just blown away by her like a blown away by her because she kept refusing the cervical exams and she was Like no, they don't mean anything right? Like what does it matter if I'm dilated right now? And what does it matter if I'm not like it doesn't matter.

And so she had a beautiful birth, and obviously, like, she, she ended up getting induced because she was, she was like 41 in 4 days or something, I believe. Something like that. I could be getting that a little bit. I do know her first cervical exam was in the hospital, and she looked at me, and she goes, That's why it didn't matter!

HeHe: Yeah, I mean, and just direct. Like, get to know her. Totally, you know, and I think.

Trish: Yeah.

HeHe: It can, it can definitely, depending on the culture of the hospital that you're walking into, it can feel like you're not welcome as a doula. I have attended births all over the nation. I do travel doula support. And so I've been really, really blessed at being able to see a lot of hospital cultures.

And sometimes we are welcomed with open arms and people love to have us there. And nurses are like, yes, a doula. I love it. And the physicians and the midwives are like, yes, a doula. I love it. And then there are. There are some hospitals that you walk into and they're like, and you are who? And why are you here?

Like she could not even believe that. You know, a doula was here. And so it's gonna, you are gonna walk into different scenarios. You have to be in control of you. You have to remember that no matter what that hospital culture is, doesn't have anything to do with you as a doula. Your job is to make sure that mom, that mom is respected.

She is heard and listened to and that she is the one making decisions, right? She's not being taken advantage of. People are not bullying her. She's not being coerced into it. decisions without a discussion or without information that she needs that's critical to that decision. That is your job. Your job is not to fight with hospital staff.

We are the jelly that keeps things moving and grooving whatever that looks like that. Do you want to explain what Wharton's jelly is for my

Trish: mamas who are listening? Absolutely. So on your

HeHe: umbilical cord, it is the coolest thing. Your body naturally lubricates it with Wharton's jelly and it keeps it moving.

It keeps the cord from being compressed, and it keeps the cord from, I'm like, drying out. It just keeps it really healthy so that the blood and oxygen can continue to flow through that. But sometimes the umbilical cord can get a knot in it, and it is where your baby has kind of flipped through. So it looks like a physical knot, as if you were to tie, like, a shoelace in a knot, except it's in your umbilical cord.

You guys, it is the coolest thing ever. It is so neat. I think for me it just like I say it's just a really cool analogy to think about doulas as that jelly that there may be knots that were totally out of our control. We didn't cause them and we can't undo them but what we can do is make sure that they don't compromise that birth experience and we keep things moving and grooving and smooth.

But don't you think all of us should be that though? Yes but that goes back to like you can't control other people like I can't control you Yeah,

Trish: no, but I'm saying if the doctors were viewing it that way, if the nurses are viewing it the way, if the partners were viewing it that way, all of it, it would just be, we're all working together to have this beautiful birth experience.

Well, thank you so much for coming today. Can you tell everyone where they can find you?

There's questions to ask your providers Data and science and everything. And yeah, find me on Instagram. I'm tranquility by he, he, and the dot birth dot lounge. And we hang out and it's just a lot of fun birth, nerdy stuff, education, and talking about the what ifs and talking about, you know, how do I do this?

How do I say that? Where do I find this information? So. Yeah,

Trish: check it out. I love it. Oh, thank you. We, we turn what ifs into even ifs. That's our theory over here so that you can navigate it. All right. Well, thank you so much.

If you loved this episode, don't forget to share it with someone who might need the message. Check out HeHe at the Birth Lounge. Make sure you guys hit subscribe and leave a review. We're going to do a drawing at the end of the month. Thank you so much. I'll see you guys again next Friday. Okay, bye for now.