Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Save us from loners and quiet guys! 90s TV tropes abound as the B5 crew races to uncover who is behind a series of deadly bombings in Babylon 5 Season 3 Episode 2, Convictions.

CW: Terrorism

Spoilers for The Batman(2022)

Listener quick content warning for today's episode.

Of Babylon five the episode deals with bombings and terrorist attacks.

So, if that is something that is going to be difficult for you to listen to.

No, that before the episode goes any further,

hello, and welcome to who are you?

We're a Babylon five watch cast by a couple of friends who got to

know each other and are continuing to get to know each other.

Over one of their favorite shows from their childhood Babylon five.

I'm Laura.

And I'm

And today I get to ask What do you want?

I love the strap too.

I love them both.

They're great.

Yes.

I stole the virtue of them.

Cause I did not personally make them.

Yeah.

But.

Their virtue needs a

I mean, ideas were shared.

Ideas were shared.

Yes.

What do I want?

This is something that I was just complaining about, and

then we decided to record

Um, so I know I've mentioned that I moved recently.

On pot a number of times, and I redid my kitchen and all that stuff.

Well, it turns out in the move.

I lost exactly one box of stuff from my kitchen.

I'm like, I can visualize the amount of stuff that I have, and it's perfectly

sized for one box of what I'm missing.

So you left this box in the house that you sold.

Presumably.

that's tragic.

You know, the new owners, like Ooh, free stuff.

For sure.

And I can't even like get super mad.

It would have been the only thing left in the upstairs of the house.

There were a handful of things I left downstairs.

Like air filters that fit the furnace.

That's just nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I left a couple rolls of toilet paper in each of the

bathrooms for when, when he moved

Also very kind.

Well, I've moved into a house before and had people help

me do it and found that there was not toilet paper there for them.

So I made sure to do that now in of Because I did that.

I did not have toilet paper here when I moved.

So when people helped me move, we had to run out and get some

that's neither here nor there.

So I did leave a couple of things in the house.

So he might've thought, like he hasn't said anything to me.

I've talked to the person who's bought my house maybe three times since.

The transaction as occurred.

Mostly like, Hey, I got a package coming on accident kind of stuff.

Yeah.

We've all done

Um, And he's a good guy.

Like it's always been very amicable the conversations, but he's never

brought up this box of cool stuff ever.

I have no idea where it ended up, but I'm not going to get accusatory about it.

I'm just going to take the L but.

Yeah.

So I'm missing this box of stuff from my kitchen.

I've replaced about a third of it at this point.

And I'm about to replace a whole nother chunk of it.

In like a week, but that's a whole other story, which is also related to me moving.

So it's all just kitchen stuff.

I've mentioned baking on pot.

A couple of times I like lost my bag at trays.

My birthday was a couple months ago.

My mom got me new ones for my birthday.

So I've been making baguettes again.

But I was missing, like all my baking trays.

I was missing my cupcake tray, which is incredibly important

to the operation of my kitchen.

Despite and having never once been in my oven.

I am the guy who saves all of his scraps when he's cooking

and make stock once a week.

Oh, so you freeze it in the little cupcake shaped?

Yeah.

I've got a little silicone one where I can pop them out

when they're frozen, real easy.

And I freeze them in that tray.

And then I vacuum seal them.

Oh,

The other thing that was in this box was my vacuum sealer and my severe.

Oh, that's terrible.

So I haven't been able to vacuum seal anything.

Send the.

Four months I've lived here already.

That can't be right.

June.

Oh my God.

Anyways.

Maybe it was July.

I'd have to go find paperwork regardless of.

I haven't been able to.

Yeah.

I've like made stock like three times because I'm not able to keep it properly.

So it's just in Mason jars in my fridge, and I have to force myself

to use it all in the same week.

Instead of having a like back stock of

stock.

That's terribly inconvenient.

Yeah, but it's all about to work itself out.

When I moved my former cable company charged me like $300 for

all of the equipment in the house.

Ah

and they finally, finally, finally they've had it for, I don't even

know how long process to the return.

Ah,

it

it was like just in an office that they don't man, like

when I dropped it off, it was like, just slide it through here.

No box, no labeling, no nothing.

We'll get it from the address.

And I looked in there and it was just piles of cable modems

and routers and stuff in there.

And I'm just like, oh my God, this is

You have that labor?

Market's a real, real, terrible bitch right now.

So they're not exactly known for their excellent

service in the first place.

Although I did offer one of their phone technicians.

Uh, Job once he did, he did real

good.

Anyways.

I have a refund coming to me, which is going to be almost exactly

the cost of everything on my Amazon wishlist to replace a four mentioned box.

Oh, very nice.

it's within like $20.

I'm sure you have 20 bucks sitting around.

Oh, the other way.

It's, I'm getting 20 more dollars for my

find yourself 20 more dollars of kitchen gadget on Amazon.

And you're good.

I don't.

I don't like kitchen

cabinets.

I, if I have something that does the job, I'm not going

to buy another tool that does

Yeah, that's

There are.

too.

Yeah.

And I mean, I've got like, I mean, I designed my own kitchen

and then built my own kitchen.

So one of the things that I purposely designed is a cabinet.

That's 30 inches wide.

That has six drawers in it and they're all five inches deep.

Nice.

So it's just open it, see everything, go to the next one, open

it, see everything that is all of my cooking supplies and stuff one is

just measuring cups, all laid out.

One is, you know, like stuff to store things, stuff to mash stuff,

you know, like my immersion, blender, all that stuff is in

And it's purposefully designed to be very easy to just kind of open one up.

See absolutely everything that's in there and then close

it.

Yeah.

I don't want to overflow any of these

For sure, for sure.

I designed my kitchen for the things that I have or the

things that I knew I'd be getting.

Cause I did.

Uh, By a handful of things.

When I moved,

it's like a new kitchen.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, it's like, okay, I have all these Mason jars

and I've got this like haphazard collection of lids that some of

them work, some of them don't.

So, okay.

I'll spend $10 on a set of matching lids that are tight seal for the

set of Mason jars or 20 bucks or whatever it was, you know, just to

like kind of uniform things up a So.

Yeah.

So that's what I want my stuff.

My stuff back.

Well, I hope you get your stuff back soon.

Thank you.

And.

There's no good segue.

Um,

I'm

the, that episode?

No, this episode is super tragic.

There's no good segway for me, complaining about missing a box

of stuff from my kitchen that

works.

Or at least that's tasteful, we might be able to find one,

but I'm not interested in it.

Yeah, This episode is a bit heavy.

There's a couple of things about this episode.

I'm going to throw out there

now.

Let's hear it.

And I don't know how you will feel about them.

I kind of mentioned this to you at the end of the last recording.

Because this probably means a lot more for you than it does for me.

But this episode was written in the aftermath of the Oklahoma city

Yeah.

That's a timetable that I hadn't put together either.

Like, because I was a child when the bombing happened.

Right.

And

I didn't actually

Well, we both

were, but oh, were you not actually in Oklahoma city then?

No, no.

I lived in the Eastern part of the state at that time.

So I lived.

Back in the Cherokee And.

You know, I knew that we had friends that lived in Oklahoma city.

. And I was of a small enough age that it was like, You hear there's

a bombing in Oklahoma city and you don't really have a grasp of how

big the place is or what happened.

And so, you know, I remember, you know, asking mommy is your.

Your friend.

Okay.

And she just kinda chuckled in this, like, you Yes, she's fine.

It's a very big place, you know?

You don't

Yeah.

really understand, but yeah.

I wasn't close to it.

Right.

But.

Oklahoma's not a big place.

In geographically big.

Right.

But we're not a super populous state.

And uh, It's always been something that.

Has been there, you know, for us in our.

Or ethos, and we still have the Oklahoma city Memorial marathon every year that

we run from different parts of the city.

And I think it usually ends at the And I think that everybody who comes to

Oklahoma city should go see that Memorial.

It's beautiful.

It makes you cry.

People still leave stuff.

At the fence around the Memorial, you know that when.

The building blew up and.

They left toys for the kids that were in the daycare.

And.

It's a really.

Spiritual place, you know, I know not everybody who

listens to our podcast feels.

Religious or anything, but.

It's one of those places that you feel something about humanity

when you're there, even if you don't feel things about.

Beings that are.

Outside of us.

Yeah.

And, you know, I, I still, like, if, if friends come I'm

like, well, we need Go see it.

You know, stay into that ground and.

See the chairs.

That's one of the big things is that there's a chair for every person.

That died.

The.

a stone chair, metal

Yeah, that's.

And the ones for the children are smaller.

So, you know who they were.

But, you know, there's still people around the city that Cohen speak at things.

That were there.

I saw one.

And an event last year and she had been a bank employee, cause

there was a, a credit union.

You know, in the building.

Cause it was a federal building.

Right.

So she was at the credit union and she talked about.

Being like trapped under a refrigerator and how.

You know how the whole thing changed her life.

And you're just

Yeah.

next to this person that.

Or you're sitting, watching this person that.

Has been touched by something you can't fathom.

and creators like J Michael Minsky and.

Others at the time, because there were lots of.

You know, terrorist Storylines that came out, trying to imagine

this in our shows in the nineties.

Yeah.

I mean, we had Waco maybe a year or two before

Yeah.

And I

think it was, you know, I I've read a lot about it, but it's

following, like the logic is

There was the world trade center bombing, which is another thing

that's kind of been lost to history.

But it was an

for

this.

Yeah.

It was a, you know, we, we.

Phillip.

Vehicle with explosives and they pulled it under the parking garage

At um, the world trade center too, but they didn't have enough.

So it wasn't really like a big.

Thing.

But.

There was a lot that happened around this time that I didn't really put it together.

As a child that like, You know, these creators were reacting to this too.

And obviously they're.

We're a lot of nine 11 stories after nine 11, it was a much bigger thing, but.

Know, we already

And there's also like there's a bit of disconnect on the timing too.

Like.

You know, if he wrote this episode or had the idea for this episode.

And the aftermath of the Oklahoma city bombing.

Then it might not have been filmed for another four to six months

and it might not have aired for another four months after that.

You know, it could have been a whole year, some.

In the Genesis there.

Where it fell and this episode was filmed.

The week that the unit bombers manifesto was published in, I

want to say the Washington post.

that was a big deal.

Yeah.

Cool.

The humor Unabomber was active for like a decade or something, right?

Like it was a while the Unabomber was doing stuff for a long time, but until

the manifesto, it was just like, sometimes these random people got mailed bumps.

I don't.

I mean, the FBI might've been aware.

It was one person.

I would Uh, at some point they caught on.

I don't know anything about that.

I'm not going to guess, but until the manifesto and it like became

public knowledge that like someone took credit for all of these things.

It kind of picked up a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah, so.

All of that happens to.

There's a definite.

Type.

Of person that our antagonist is um,

Yeah, I've got some feelings there.

You want to.

Save it for For

Oh, yeah, no.

Would it surprise you to know that I've got a half page political rant?

In my notes.

I'm I'm.

Yeah.

I listener, you can probably tell I'm still a little like

froggy from my recent cold.

And if JFF.

The fair wants to rant.

I'm just sledding.

I'm going to take a breather and have some water.

So.

I appreciate

Yeah, well, let's get into it.

We talked enough about the historical context.

I think.

All right.

Well, we open on a space TSA.

Where some.

Trasy monks are coming to Babylon five because of the cash sighting.

Yeah.

Garibaldi and Zack are there and they do their characteristic.

And sensitive human white guy.

Thing and.

I think last time this happened, I described it as two white guys

talking about black history month.

Yeah, you did.

You did.

It's what it feels

It does, especially when they, the drowsy specifically mentioned

the name of the God that there.

They keep saying it wrong.

It on purpose.

I'm assuming on purpose at a certain point.

A certain point, ignorance becomes Indistinguishable for malice, right?

Yeah,

well, I mean, asked me how many times I've corrected some of coworkers

on how to pronounce my name.

Yes.

I think we've all worked with that one guy who refuses to.

Get ethnic names, right.

Even though he's been actually corrected.

Yeah.

Specifically.

Anyways,

They poke Zack.

Zack gets them to poke a potted plant.

It's weird.

And not.

If this episode we're any less serious.

I'd probably be really mad about this

Yeah.

But given the drowsy to poke a plant because they feel it's wholly.

Given the weight of everything that's pending.

Yeah, this is an attempt at levity, right?

Yeah.

You're trying to do something while you still can.

Because once this starts there's no, there's no breaks for comedy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No B plot that's.

Yeah.

Yeah, we get Sort of like a bee moment, but then it, it works back into the pot.

But so Garibaldi goes and runs into Ivanova and she tells him that they've had

some anonymous messages come into CNC in the last few hours that say chaos is four

hours away, three hours away, whatever.

Uh, Why are we just telling Garibaldi now?

This is probably the most.

Unbelievable part of this episode for me, based on what

that Ivanova, wouldn't say something sooner.

Yeah.

Like what we

Well, Garibaldi doesn't take us seriously.

So maybe that's why maybe she knew he was just going to be, oh, well, I'll take it

seriously when they blow something up.

absurd.

I'll get to that, you know, after lunch, whatever.

Yeah.

I mean, not to continue being super heavy, but it's going

to be a super heavy episode.

I mean.

I think we are of the age.

Where we remember the distinction of school.

Before.

Bomb drills and stuff and school after.

Yeah, Columbine was another big thing in our childhoods.

Wasn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, I was in, I want to say seventh or eighth grade.

Yeah, that seems

You know,

school seems right to me.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I've got like clear memories of school before and after.

Yeah.

they are quite.

That is.

That is a break there.

There's delimination.

And that is an

active problem.

In today's society, as you know, recent two thousands.

2022 history.

Like, can you imagine if somebody called a school today and

said chaos is four hours away?

Like, like

Rightfully.

So the school has every reason to freak the fuck out at

Yeah, the whole police department knows Really.

You know of this, but the Garibaldi.

All these just like men.

And Ivana was like, male, sit, Wait till we get another call.

Yeah, that's the only part I'm like, nah, not enough homeys.

Anyway.

Cut to down below where a lurker crawls into a giant trap box.

Yeah.

It's like a giant Coon trap or

something.

like

this is the worst sauce equal.

Mouse trap down below edition.

Yeah.

And of course this big old crate.

Explodes.

Yeah.

And

then uh, we go to theme when we come back.

Brother Theo, who is a reoccurring character.

For a handful of episodes in the near future.

Yeah, we meet him for the first time.

Did you note, did you, did you notice this actor.

This actor is right.

No, he's through original drawl.

There were two actors for draw.

I didn't notice this, but my husband did.

Okay.

said, I thought

the other draw seemed different.

Can you look this guy up?

I think I misread it on I MDB and saw he was just a drowsy

and just moved on with my life.

But no draw.

I misread that.

Yeah, Louis Tareen or Taran I'm.

I'm not sure how you say it.

Was apparently.

Supposed to reprise draw, but he had some sort of medical

thing where he couldn't do it.

And so.

They got a different actor and promised him that he would come back

as something and they made him brother.

Theo.

So.

Yeah, I think that's really nice.

Very

He, yeah, he gives me real big.

Andrew Scott.

In Sherlock vibes, he's a Moriarty in the reboot.

Yeah.

not the reboot, but in the Benedict Cumberbatch, Sherlock.

Sure.

Yeah.

it a reboot.

It's not really.

Yeah.

Accurate or apt.

Regardless.

Yeah.

So, yeah, there, there are a bunch of monks and they've

come to stay on the station.

I find them delightful.

Especially that they're wearing, you know, traditional monk

clothes, like you would think.

This is a fun storyline.

And we get.

A really good guest spot.

In, I think it's two or three episodes through, through these monks.

Which I'm really looking forward to that episode.

Yeah, it's not far.

Yeah.

It's it's soon.

But We get Renova talks with the, a what they're there to do.

And they're like, we want to learn about alien religions.

You know we're firm believers in one.

True And why would one true God only show themselves to humanity.

That doesn't make

sense.

So we want to learn more about alien religions in order to better

understand and know our God.

Yeah,

Cool.

Big thumbs up from this guy.

That's a cool concept and totally makes sense to me.

Yeah.

I would hope that's how people respond instead of with xenophobia.

Yeah.

Well, But that's what we want.

Right.

But.

There, there's a couple of science fiction novels, and one of them's

name is escaping me, but I like to just call them Jesuits in space.

Cause Uh, They do.

Feature prominently the Jesuit order.

Of the Catholic church and they're

You talking about the bene Jesuits.

You think a dune or is this something

No, I'm talking about the, the actual Jesuits there's Sparrow is one

of them that has the Jesuits in it.

And I haven't read Sparrow.

There was another one that was older.

I'll post it.

The discord, when I remember it.

It's very much this philosophy that they're going out there because.

They believe that God must've shown himself to other races

and they want to know how, and they want to know what that is.

So.

intellectually curious, which you like to, to hear from any group of people.

So.

For sure.

No, this is super cool.

Big they're like, this is what would have taken centuries to collect on earth

will take decades here at Babylon five.

You know, and that makes sense too, because all the traveling Ivana

was like, you're not going to be like going door to door and they're

like, no people will come to us.

And we plan on earning our, keep on the station.

I made sure to only bring monks who are.

Geneticists and welders.

And engine structural engineers and stuff.

And it's just Like he rattles off all this stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, I very well thought.

A-plus brother Theo.

Uh, We get a little bit before this with Garibaldi

and Franklin going through the wreckage, looking for survivors

and we come back to it after this.

And at the bombing site Shang song finds evidence of

Is that who this is.

Yeah, he's he's the bad guy in mortal combat.

Okay.

This is uh,

Kari Harry Yuki to gala.

And this is a very famous actor.

He's done a ton of stuff.

Especially a lot of TV in the nineties.

And early two thousands.

Thus giving us that Shang song was in a crossover episode of

Sabrina, the teenage witch meme that made it rounds for a minute.

Okay.

Okay.

Which is not what happens in that episode to be absolutely clear if you saw

that And you're like, oh, that's crazy.

Not what happens in that episode.

Sorry to shit.

And your cereal.

Okay.

Enough about that.

We see linear at space TSA.

yes, this is another levity moment.

Obnoxious guy is back.

Uh, That is the name of his character obnoxious

Yeah.

I noticed that in the I M D B.

This is the guy who was suing the.

Gray aliens.

that's

season one.

Yes for

kidnapping his great, great, great grandfather or something.

Yeah, actually, this is John Flynn.

Who is director of photography and cinematography on 102

of 110 of Babylon fives

episodes.

He, he was director of cinematography for more episodes than JMS wrote.

dang.

And that's probably the only credit that can be attributed

besides actors and possibly the composer to that many episodes.

You also did most of the TV, movies and stuff.

So this is a fun little thing for him

He's loving it.

He's eating it linear, straight up lies to get rid of this guy,

Yeah.

What about that?

Linear?

I thought Bari could only lie to save face of another.

Who is he

saving face of here?

No one, which is why he says he'll do penance for lying later.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm sure he will too.

Yeah, well, he does this episode to be perfectly honest.

Oh true.

Yeah.

Oh, it's karma.

No, no, it's not.

That's not how this works.

Yeah.

He tells this guy that he has a fatal disease and gets him to leave.

And he's there.

He's in space TSA to meet Dylan.

He's not leaving.

He's not going

Yeah.

Yeah.

DLN arrives, Londo right behind from another cruiser coming in.

Londa was not on them in Bari Homeworld or something.

They, they make a point of giving us a throwaway line of dialogue that a Centauri

cruiser was docked at the same time as them embark cruiser and a little bit.

But yeah, another bomb goes off and Dylan gets out of the way and

then linear saves Lambda's life.

Yeah, he.

He like pushes him through the door.

But can't make it through the door himself in time.

And we see this like plexiglass pressure door close and we see linear.

Like.

His

Straight up Rapha con.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he gets stuck in the ensuing explosion and we dramatically cut to commercial.

Now, because this episode was not heavy enough.

I'm going to add a whole layer right now.

And I'm going to guess, unless you read production notes.

You don't know this about this episode.

This is something I definitely learned about this episode.

This time I had no idea.

From this moment.

Until when Lynn near wakes up, bill mommy is not in this episode.

Whoa.

No

Ah, Wait.

this is a very sad story.

It's a dummy.

Okay.

And if, as soon as I say it, you like, if you go back and look at a

couple of clips, he's never breathing.

He's not linear sized at all.

It's just, the head is perfect.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

So bill mummy's father passed away shortly before the filming of this

episode.

Oh, that is

He, he didn't miss this episode because of a funeral

that had already happened.

But his dad was sick for a long time.

He was spending a lot of time visiting him in the hospital, which is why.

Lanier light.

First episode, and then also like the season break and stuff.

The timing worked out, I guess, for him to not be missing a bunch.

But he had spent a ton of time at his father's bedside as he

was slowly dying over months.

And so when this role part of the role came up, he refused.

Oh,

like, this is too difficult for me, from what I've been through recently.

I can not do this.

I am incapable of portraying the character.

In this comatose state.

It is emotionally too much for me at the moment.

And everyone understood.

And so the makeup guy was all like, I gotcha.

We're going to do a face cast.

And I'll make a mold and we'll put it on a dummy and no one will ever know.

I promise no one will ever know.

I mean, I didn't.

You can't tell.

That it's so good.

The, the makeup job on that face is so, I mean, they had all his normal

prosthetics and stuff to put on the dummy.

Right.

So you just make a face mask of him to put the prosthetics

on you, throw it on a dummy.

And like, if you watch go back and look, the dummy's like in this weird

position, it's shoulders are massive.

Yeah.

Yeah, but

it net.

off as like he's.

Never moving.

He swollen from the explosion or something.

Yeah.

But yeah, there's no breathing.

The dummy never

And don't, they have one of those like arch thingies over him a

little bit that might be obscuring.

The fact, you know,

that your brain is not reading The chest is moving.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They kind of cover them up a bit.

But I've wrote 29 40.

As a good spot to see it.

29 40 left of the episode.

If you want to scrub to that.

And hit play and watch like 10 seconds.

You will see it's, it's clear as day as soon as you know,

when you look at the spot.

Okay.

I'll have to go back and do that.

Yeah, so that, that blew my fucking mind.

Because I had read all of that.

My.

My process involves reading everything I can about an episode.

For the notes before I watch it.

So that way, when we hit the point, I can make my timely comments about my research.

so I.

It, it works out well for me.

If anyone else wants to talk shop at any point, get on our discord.

Um, But that's how I do it.

So I knew the entire time that was a dummy.

And I still was like finding ways to like looking from breathing or

something, just trying to convince myself that that was actually a Dubby.

That's how good the makeup job was.

Yeah, was very good.

They did great.

We

cut two senior staff discussing the situation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And fuck, this is depressingly relatable.

Just talking about like, Hey, we don't want to Institute panic, but we also

need to lock down and try to shut his down traffic in public areas to prevent.

mass casualties and it's just like, oh God.

You know, no groups larger than.

Two or three.

Uh, so that there's no target.

the, this explosive was.

Commercially available.

It's something you can just buy.

Hmm.

Where we heard that.

Yeah, you can't

regulate it.

but there is some sort of tracking and this one, like we,

we can know which company made it or where, where it came from.

Like

what what system.

Yeah, they pay some lip service to the molecular

structure of the explosive itself.

Having a signature that would be left behind that would allow them to trace it.

Not only to the company that manufactured it, but the transaction.

That's

That's fucking cool.

That is 100% in the realm of technology we could have.

In the near future.

And is that's.

That's fucking smart.

Yeah.

I mean, this is why like, All guns have serial numbers and stuff, right?

Like.

Yeah.

They've identified.

This can We used as an explosive And we have a way to sort of mitigate.

That been, make it trackable.

We've got some dead people.

We've got some injured people.

messages we got, you know, the, the little Unibomber notes or whatever, who was it?

That sent notes?

Was it the Unabomber?

Yeah.

A lot of people who do these things send notes.

Let's be

A lot of people who do these things are just desperate for attention.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, we get a little bit of a Dzhokhar blaming the

Suntory, the Suntory blaming the

Yeah, this Just, I mean, it's very relatable, right?

People politicizing a.

Tragedy.

In their own ways.

It's obviously a stretch, like both of

them.

But they both do it anyway.

So Sharon and brings up the point though, like you

said, the bombers message.

They have to figure out what the bomber wants, what the bomber

is trying to convey the bombers manifesto in order to determine.

Who the bomber is.

Right, right.

We have to understand.

What they are getting at in order to narrow down our search.

I've what kinds of people could this be?

Dylan goes and checks on linear.

And so does Alondo.

Yes.

Londo visits, linear.

And he has heard that talking to people who are in unconscious

state can aid in their recovery.

No one

better for the

job.

Exactly.

He knows that this is his calling now.

This is his moment.

He does that and mad scramble of words.

That one will find themselves saying at a hospital bed.

I don't know if you've had this experience.

Either you personally, Laura or listener very clearly.

I wouldn't know that.

But this is at least in my experience with this.

Exactly what happens.

Yeah.

This is, this was relatable to the point where I had to pause Babylon five

and I was getting teared up and just like.

I can only imagine.

Bill mummy.

Reading the scene.

Yeah.

And knowing, and.

Having to say no at this point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you think about it and you're like, well, what's bill mommy.

Gotta do.

He's just got to lay there, but it's like, Yeah, he's just got to lay there.

he's hearing this outpouring from a very talented actor.

Oh, yeah.

Peter drastic nails.

This.

Oh,

Yeah.

And not have any emotions.

Or look on his face or cry.

Like.

If you've been through the things that Bill's been through, I

could see that being very hard.

So.

Good on him.

He's a very logical person.

Yeah.

To know, to not put himself through that.

And for them to find and for the show to find a way around it and still tell

the story that they needed to tell.

That was.

A plus all around production crew.

Yeah, I think.

The story of Babylon five.

Behind the scenes.

Seems to have a lot of compassion for.

Everyone involved.

Yes,

had a lot of compassion.

This crew has a lot of compassion.

Yeah, whenever you listen to stuff, everyone

always talks about it that way.

Which is why the season five contract betrayal cuts so deep.

But we'll talk about that in like three years listener.

Like what.

Whenever we get to season five, episode one.

I'll talk about what happened there.

If you were not anyways.

Garibaldi Sheridan.

Ivanova discussed the bombings.

Uh, The bomb scene primitive.

The bomber had previously.

Struck on Proxima three.

They track the same set of explosives to bombings that were

Yeah.

And so they decided that they needed to go through the aftermath

footage to check for a common face.

And Yvanova's like, I think I have someone who can help with this.

Yeah, I care about all these freaking out because the AI can not do it.

So funny story.

Well, I mean, we have AI now that could totally do that.

Yeah, I

Um,

so.

Yeah.

I actually just programmed in AI for work this last week.

Well, it's a neural net.

We use the term AI.

These things are not intelligent.

Right.

They don't have sentience it's.

Now, when you, when you think of AI, we're not talking about

scifi AI, we're talking about.

Something that can learn.

Yeah, like the

current use of the word, not SciFest.

You guys

Yes.

Yeah, I F.

I built a thing at work and I just, I rolled it out this morning, actually.

That goes through every active service ticket in our system

and finds people who were upset.

Oh, God, I hope that our software company doesn't have that cause.

I'm going to show up a lot.

Okay.

I'll I'll reshare Think about my tone next time.

I don't know that anyone is doing anything with this thing

that I'm

but it's good to know.

Isn't

Yeah, it exists.

Like I did it.

I built it over the last couple of weeks and rolled it out and.

Like that's where we're at.

So I got to imagine.

Short of some.

But Larry and jihad in Babylon fives history.

Where humanity takes a step back from.

Artificial intelligence in some regard.

Which is that in the, I think they actually don't.

They reference it in the book from book club.

Reference.

about robots.

In there.

I think there was like a lip service line to like robots gaining

sentience and they killed them all.

There was a thing wasn't there.

Oh God, I'm gonna have to research this later.

It was like a throwaway line in the first couple of chapters.

I'll have to dig into that.

Ivanova gets the monks to go over all the footage.

And Glendo and checar then get trapped in the worst pitch

for an Aerosmith music video.

Ever made.

Look, there's not a lot of room for jokes here.

And if we're going to do trapped in an elevator jokes, I'm going for Aerosmith.

Okay.

And that not because I like them.

For the exact opposite reason of that.

This is a good premise and a good whole.

This is where I said there was kind of a B story.

And to me, the kind of a B story was Londo and him talking to And then, well,

He had to go run an errand and woopsie.

So when I was doing my notes for this episode Beth and my friend

Janie came in towards the last, like three or four minutes of the episode.

And so I had to like explain.

Like, they just saw the very end of how.

Of Londo in Chicago getting saved.

Oh, yeah.

So they're like laying in this thing and.

And Londa was laughing in Jakarta cursing.

And I had to explain the two of them.

Like they had never encountered these characters before.

This, Jamie's never watched the show.

And so I was just like, I just, and I just spouted out and they're just

like, oh, oh, the shows, the shows.

It's like, yes.

Yeah, it's, it's a little dark, like, you know So, how

it gets set up is, is Dzhokhar.

Isn't.

The elevator Hondo is about to get on and he's like, no, I'll wait for the next one.

And then he sees like a ball of fire coming down the hallway.

This was a practical effect.

Yeah.

How they did the shop.

Is they rigged one of their hallways standing.

Put the camera at the end of the hallway at like the top of the hallway.

And then rigged the fireball to shoot up.

Oh, okay.

And then they green screened.

Peter drastic in.

And to it.

Okay.

Yeah.

And he's making his choice.

He's like there's The angry NARKN in here, but there is a ball of fire over here.

And I guess I have to get in the elevator with the angry Nard.

Yep.

He gets in.

There's wreckage.

They're trapped.

And checar is just pleased as punch.

This is his ideal situation.

He's so happy because he can't kill Londo.

He knows what will happen.

If he kills Londo, he wants to kill Londo more than anything.

And he can't.

But he can watch Londo die through inaction.

Yeah.

And that's exactly his plan.

He, he, if he, he can't kill him, but he can definitely not save him.

There's some fantastic acting throughout this whole

thing from Andrea's just like.

Yeah.

We're skipping ahead a bit, but we'll get back to the other parts that the

other things that are happening right now, because it's all, it's a very simultaneous

pot at And, you know, Wando is trying to.

Call for help.

Edgy cars just in the background.

MI.

just like.

So good.

It's So

good.

This.

I mean, it's been like this for a while, but these two actors are so.

Cemented in these characters, like.

This is just the proof in the pudding of their chemistry as a pair.

Yeah.

And it's so This whole, this episode is made.

Watchable.

I feel like by modern standards because of the acting.

Yes.

And it's just, it's so good in this.

We skipped around a bunch.

Uh, The monks find our dangerous loner.

The N the 90 stereotype.

Uh, and the reason the new Batman movie was too fucking real.

. Have you seen the new

Batman?

seen the new Batman movie.

Spoilers.

I don't

I guess.

Okay.

I'm not big on the superhero universe.

Sorry.

It's it's great.

It's three hours.

And it's a straight up detective

Okay.

it is, it is not a superhero film.

Nobody in the movie has super powers.

Okay.

Okay.

Of Annie variety.

Except maybe Andy circus.

And that's just

because he's an excellent actor.

Yeah.

So, the general plot is the regulars running around town and executing people.

And.

It's very like lone crazy gunman, terrorist, plotty kind of

Sure.

And it comes to light that he's basically a Q and honor.

Awkward.

they, they do not pull punches.

They don't call it queue.

Right.

But they don't pull punches.

He's caught up in conspiracy theories and it's completely delusional.

And he has a whole online message board.

And he's like on this, like not Twitter, probably like it's.

It's probably supposed to be parlor.

To be perfectly

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he gets all of these people who also buy into the

conspiracy theories to help them

Yeah.

you'll take, you spend the whole movie thinking it's this one, dude.

And then in like the final, like main thing.

There's like hundreds of people wearing these masks, doing the crazy shit.

And it's like, this is how you get henchman.

This is actually how you get henchman.

And it just, yeah, no, that face or making.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, It's too real.

It's too real there.

Babylon five guide.

Doesn't have this much pull.

He is.

Much more loaner.

He's not got a message board thing.

Jesus.

Yeah, for sure.

But Gear Baldy and crew go for the bomber who has booby traps, the halls.

Uh, It gets shared into come and talk to him.

We get a nice, funny moment again.

We're Garibaldi is like trying to get shared and to go ahead and go in with a

bug, even though they've just been told.

Do not

Anybody with an active link or a bug?

Yeah.

And Sheridan uncreatively starts to stick his link in his shirt.

And they give each other a look and he sticks it in his, I know he sticks it in

his pants, but I could not stop telling my husband that he stuck it in his butt.

Just every moment.

I was like, it's it is, but.

Dennis, but right now,

Which makes it even funnier when he sits on

Right.

Okay.

I'm not adult guys.

I'm really sorry, listeners.

It has to be on your skin to work.

Right.

I always

got the

it in a butt cheek.

Like.

Yeah.

I always got the impression that they're like powered by your body.

Oh, like they're getting some kind of electrical current off of you.

Yeah, Yeah, either that, or they're running off like the heat

and converting it to electricity or something like there's a

couple of ways you could do it.

Future tech, whatever.

But it always seemed to me like they don't work when they're not on a person.

I don't even ever even know if that's true.

I don't, there's probably examples where that's not the case.

Where someone's got theirs on their nightstand and it goes off or something.

But in my brain, as a child watching the show, that was always

my impression of this technology.

Yeah.

Yeah, well,

I mean, it could be like your, It's got a little battery in there.

You know, if it stays

charged, it could go off on your nightstand for a little bit.

Had Canon accepted.

Yeah.

What's not accepted.

Yeah.

Is this loaners views on society.

Oh, no.

He's super pissed that he paid off his student loans

and then they got forgiven.

Yeah, he's got big, like modern women have ruined society vibes.

Because his, his wife left him.

He makes sure to mention that.

Oh yeah.

No fuck this guy.

100%.

Fuck this Unequivocally fuck the sky.

Fuck fuck people who think like this guy.

This is not rational or sane.

In any regard.

The world does not revolve around you.

We live in a fucking society.

Yeah.

You

know, if

of my rant was built around the student loans.

Joe

can, we've just lost the

thread.

Oh, no, you're fine.

You're fine.

No, it's good.

I don't, they don't, they don't need that for me.

Audience, you don't.

You know, you don't need me to tell you that if you're upset,

you paid off your student loans.

And didn't get any forgiven that you could go fuck yourself.

But, Hey listener, if you haven't gone in, if you have student

loans and you haven't gone and filled out that thing and you're

eligible, go fill out the thing.

Go fill out the thing.

And also listener, if you were unaware, I don't know why

I'm the one telling you this.

But you can get a refund for any loans that you paid off since March of 2020.

I

You can

get that refunded and then forgiven I've yeah.

Yeah, you did it.

I have enough because you did it.

I sat my best friend down and made him do it.

Yeah, no, like I had no idea it was a thing.

And we talked about it.

This is a real thing.

Listener.

You can do this.

You can call your student loan company, get up to $10,000 or

whatever back refunded to you, and then get that forgiven.

You just gotta do it soon.

Yes.

Your time is running out by the time this airs.

You're counting down days.

So get to it.

And you know what it's really, it's not as intimidating as it sounds like.

No.

I mean, I sat with, like I said, I sat my best friend down here.

He Under 20 minutes.

Yeah, do the

And that involved multiple phone calls.

Yeah, do the thing a hundred percent.

Get your money.

We're You know, I was thinking about what you said about

Riddler and the henchmen and stuff.

I'm hoping that all stays in.

Cause I'm about to say this guy.

Is definitely not a Riddler.

Right.

He's one of these henchmen he's been reading the message boards.

Yeah.

And is doing a crazy thing now, but he is no mastermind.

No.

He's the guy who was on parlor, getting upset about stuff in his workplace.

Not the guy on four Chan, figuring out how to best message this to brainwash people.

Yes.

Yes.

This is the Guy who has absorbed a lot of messaging and is acting on it.

He is not inventing his own stuff.

He is not original enough for that.

He gives us a lot, a lot of rant.

And.

Oddly enough, he doesn't even seem to meet a connect like.

They could have gone after a thing of like, these aliens are ruining.

Our society or something.

And so I'm attacking alien sees just randomly.

Attacking Babylon five.

Aye.

I have to wonder if you don't do that on purpose.

Yeah.

Knowing that, I mean, there's the growing xenophobia is a constant

plot point in the background of the show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So for this person to.

I have to imagine in the nineties.

Before.

Everything that hasn't happened yet happens.

And before this country changes in the way that it's going to.

All right.

That you don't do that because you don't think people will be able to take

the xenophobia putts seriously afterwards.

Yeah, you're what you're thinking.

Maybe if I, if I'm doing this and making this part of that,

that I'm beating a dead horse or.

I'm.

Well, I

think you.

I think you take a look at this character.

Through not a modern lens.

This, this dangerous loaner dude.

And he's exactly that like in the seasoned guide.

You know the joke, it's all like, oh, this actor did such a good job.

We thought he might've actually been the Unabomber.

You know,

That's a flattering thing to say.

You don't well, they it's just, it shows culturally how not seriously.

This kind of stuff was taken at the

Right

because we don't have 25, 30 years of fucking copy cats conducting

these kinds of domestic terrorism attacks.

Like we have now.

Yeah.

Like

dangerous loners every other week.

Yeah.

Every day.

It's crazy.

So I think you don't tie in that plot point.

To save it.

To, to let it be taken more seriously

Yeah.

for the audience at the time.

I think, I think

with.

This guy is Nightwatch.

Yeah.

This guy A little, little more serious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Okay.

So in his ranting, he does mention that.

If.

his demands aren't met

Yeah, he's got a dead man switch tied to some bomb.

That's going to blow up the entire station somehow.

And his demands are basically just, I want a plane to Cuba or whatever.

If they're not met the station's going to go up in an

explosion as bright as the sun.

So

that gives them some clues.

Yeah, sons are fusion powered.

We have a fusion reactor.

Whoa.

Yeah.

So they get in there and they find the bomb.

Welded onto the fusion reactor.

Yeah.

And they start getting it out in space just in time for a

nineties, fistfight to break out.

Yes.

with going through the glass sugar glass window.

I'm pretty sure it's shared, but that sets it off.

And it's true.

The same.

Anyways Yeah, they the bomb gets far enough in station just

in time to not damage anything.

And Sheridan knocks this guy out.

Yeah, of course.

Saves the day.

I mean, technically he let the bomb go off.

So I don't know how great of a job he did.

I think he got, he got distinctly lucky.

Yes.

Yeah.

they tell him, I think that the bombs.

Yeah, cause that's what they're buzzing them in to tell them

that the bombs far away.

That's what the, that's the message on the comms is.

Very lucky.

We cut back to Londo in Dakar, still trapped in the aftermath.

After Jakarta has been taunting Londo for, you Presumably hours.

Yeah.

There, they can hear their rescuers coming.

Londo starts to laugh.

And.

Towards your car.

Yeah.

He's pissed.

Got it.

Got to deal with it another day.

Yep.

The Len goes to visit Lanier.

Who's still unconscious.

But wakes up to finish Dr.

Franklin repeating Wanda's joke.

By the way, this light bulb joke was one made on the Usenet message

boards that was then co-opted as a tribute to the online community.

That's cute.

The.

Linear can mumble out the punchline.

So we know he heard the joke.

And then he's going to be okay.

And this entire you're going to probably give him a metal and

he's going to hate going to sin.

Centauri

Centauri prime.

He has some real feelings about saving Londo.

He's just like,

look.

All life is sacred.

So I saved Alondra's life.

That wasn't hard for me.

But knowing that Londo does not feel the same way and knowing what Alondo has done.

Makes me think I might've done more of a surface to greater

life by letting him die.

Yeah.

Then he's the kind that he's not going to make that.

Call, he's not going to be the arbiter of who lives and who dies.

He's going to try to save anyone around.

And him, but he has feels about it.

And I understand that.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a part of linear going forward that will always.

See something that Londo is in some way responsible for.

And feel responsible for it.

Like he could have stopped it.

Even though it was well-established last season by the tech domain that if Londo

dies, someone else is just going to do it.

And last episode, we know that REFA is working with Morden now.

Yeah.

Like it's too late from the events of last episode.

Yeah, so it doesn't matter anymore.

So linear really shouldn't feel guilty

Yeah, but he'll never know that.

I mean, that's too bad.

We only, we only have that because we get the.

The big picture as the

We get to watch the

episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, so.

All right.

Well, how'd you feel about this one on a scale?

Babylon's one to five.

Or fuck this episode.

yeah, I'm not in.

of our scale.

Right.

Kinetically part of the, who are you?

Rating Uh, well, it's not a fuck this episode for me.

Like.

Didn't make me feel that way.

I almost felt better about this one than the previous,

which is a weird thing to say.

The whole.

Random loner guy kind of fell apart for me.

Like.

When it comes down to it, that, that.

Character just, isn't very memorable to me.

Like.

obviously.

Yeah.

Go figure like.

Uh, And maybe, I don't know.

Maybe that's just because we've had a parade of this kind of thing

throughout our young adult to.

Fully adult Lives But.

For me, this felt more like three and a half or four.

Because of the stuff with Londo.

And.

You know, we see this great compassionate moment from him with.

He's so remorseful about what's happened to linear because linear saved his life.

And.

Then we see him get trapped in an elevator with his worst enemy.

I remember that very vividly him, him and.

Jake Hart being trapped in that elevator and.

Yeah.

I don't know if I can quite call it a four, but a three and a half.

Definitely.

It's it's above the three of last episode for me.

So, where does

feel.

Exact same place three and a half.

Okay.

I feel it's not as good as last episode.

But not significantly worse than last episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially all the stuff in the elevator really makes it um,

the loner, like you said, it's hard to say given our experiences as.

Members of American society.

Um, and we are not alone in that regard.

Either many societies around the world have very similar experiences.

In the relationship with terrorism and domestic terrorism.

So it's, it's a thing and we all have feelings about And.

I can't separate that.

No matter how much I would like to from the episode.

So this is a fuck you this episode for you listener.

I 100% understand.

Yeah.

Definitely fuck that guy.

Fuck that guy, for sure.

Fuck.

That guy.

That guy is in part of the rating.

He's not even mad.

Like we didn't, I don't think we even named his character this whole time.

Yeah, well it's cause we shouldn't because we shouldn't.

Pay him any attention

Yeah.

that clearly just feeds the cycle.

Yeah, maybe that Subconscious thing we did, but yeah.

So what do we have coming up next

Season three episode three.

A day in the strife.

Mm.

Naren officials arrive to replace An alien ship, threatens the

station with a deadly intelligence test.

So they're getting featured.

I think I remember this one.

Yeah.

I certainly remember the title.

It's got a very catchy title.

Yeah.

It's like a day in the life, but you know,

bad.

Yeah.

Jokes.

So I'm looking forward to that.

Yeah.

Well, we'll be back with that next week.

Yep.

But before we go, we'd like to of course, thank Jeremy Siegel.

For our lovely theme music.

And you could find more Jeremy's work at Jeremy Siegel, 40 two.bandcamp.com.

Yeah.

You know, I saw that there's a Jeremy Siegel, Wharton professor.

Talking about the economy on the internet today.

And, I thought, yeah.

Our Jeremy Siegel is way cooler.

Cause he can play the bass.

do go check out Jeremy Siegel, 42 dot bay kept.com.

Yep.

Angry, dark time machine.

Thank you for our lovely podcast art.

And thank you to you.

The listener for being here.

And uh, if you would like to have discussion with us

and to see your thoughts.

So you can do that at our email, which is who are you?

At gmail.com.

And you could also get a link from us to join the discord.

If you want to chat with more discord folks and fans.

So.

Yeah, get in there.

We'd love to have you.

All

We'll see you next week, internet.

Bye.