Remember Donna the Deer Lady, and her call to a radio talk show that electrified the nation?

To refresh your memory, she was wondering why the highway department place the "Deer Crossing" signs at the busiest sections, where the deer were most likely to get hit by a moving vehicle. “Why are we encouraging deer to cross at the interstate? I don’t get it. That’s a high- traffic area,” she said.

That’s exactly the kind of oddball story that grabbed me from minute one with Todd Cherches — a man equipped to wring out profound and useful truths from tales like that one.

Todd is not your typical leadership guru—he earned his stripes in Hollywood, teaching actors how to deliver scenes, and later as a project manager sketching theme parks in China.

These days, he coaches executives and trains leaders using what he calls visual leadership—a way to help people "see" what you’re talking about, not just hear it.

In this episode, Todd unpacks how metaphors sneak into everyday chat (“Feed me, Seymour!” anyone?), why a CEO fetching potato chips for the staff says more about leadership than a big speech, and how to stay real and connected when half your team is working in slippers on Zoom.

Show Highlights

• How a radio caller’s confusion about a deer crossing sign turned into a killer leadership metaphor
• Why metaphors are baked into 50–70% of our language—and how to notice when you’re spooning them out
• Todd’s Hollywood adventures—including delivering lunches for Aaron Spelling and battling Mt. Hollywood traffic for extra chicken salad
• The three lenses of leadership: microscope, telescope, and kaleidoscope – and why you’ll need ’em all in today’s hybrid, VUCA world
• Digital leadership in 2025: making hybrid teams feel seen when you can’t just pop by their desks
• AI’s place in education and leadership—and how to stay mentally fit in spite of its pull
• The four G’s of leadership everybody can start practicing today: Genuine, Generous, Gracious, and Grateful
• How a single thank-you note from a student or client can become your secret stash of joy
• About Todd Cherches

Todd is the CEO and co-founder of BigBlueGumball, a management and leadership consulting firm. He’s the author of Visual Leadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking in Leadership and in Life, and a globally recognized speaker and executive coach. A two-time TEDx speaker, Todd teaches at NYU and Columbia University and brings a unique blend of pop culture, practical tools, and visual metaphors to leadership and communication.

Connect with Todd on LinkedIn

Learn more at toddcherches.com and watch his TEDx talk on visual thinking

Get VisuaLeadership at Bookshop.org

Dr Howie Jacobson: Todd Cherches, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Thank you, Howie. I'm ready to plant myself. I see if you plant right behind you, so I'm ready to go.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah, let me know if it moves. I, I

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": well,

Dr Howie Jacobson: gotta keep, keep my eye on it.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": of Horror. The little shop of horror is kind A plant.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Feed me Seymour. I, I feel like we can do an entire podcast on just giving each other inside joke lines.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah. Cultural reference, pop cultural references of the cell. I'll take pop culture references of the seventies and eighties. Now,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I'll hold it up right here. Is this

Dr Howie Jacobson: nice.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": here?

Dr Howie Jacobson: But it, it is a cat.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": you just, you just mentioned Easter eggs, which is a metaphor. We'll be talking about metaphor shortly, but other people like Easter eggs, what doest have to do with anything, right? So that's a

Dr Howie Jacobson: Mm.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": of a metaphor we just throw around.

And other people may be confused by it, especially, uh, communicating across cultures, cultures.

Dr Howie Jacobson: I just started a podcast with a friend of mine who's a teacher of, uh, business English for people for whom English is their second or third or fourth language. And we were talking about the use of metaphor and how we have to be careful, uh, you know, that people can understand and you, you know, you have a whole chapter in the book about, you know, baseball and whether it, it, it flies in in other cultures.

And we, we found, we, when we were listening to each other speak, we could not get through a single sentence without a metaphor. Are.

So I went through the study. I forget the percentage. There was something like 50 per or six 50 to 70% of language is metaphorical, and we don't even realize that.

Dr Howie Jacobson: All right. And I remember reading that if, you know, if you want to be literal, literal is a metaphor. It means like a letter. So,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": true. Yeah, that's great. I love that.

Dr Howie Jacobson: yeah.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": have to, I'll borrow

Dr Howie Jacobson: I,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I'll, I'll quote you on that.

Dr Howie Jacobson: nice. So let's, let's get started with your story. 'cause it's a, or some of your stories, however you'd like to, um, to, to curate them for us. Uh, where, where'd you come from? How, how'd you become who you are?

Dr Howie Jacobson: I.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": at etymology dot uh, dot com, like at least once or twice or 10 times a day to look up Origins. So my origin story, I grew up in Queens, New York. Um, I talk loud and fast even though I'm an introvert, but, uh, that you have, you have to be loud and fast to, to survive in New York. Then I grew up on Long Island after that and then went to school in Albany. But my dream, I talk about this in my TED talk, on the power of visual thinking. My dream was to work in, um, was television. That sounds like you are, we were both obsessed with television growing up. Um, and pop culture. So people would say to me as a kid, what do you wanna be when you grow up?

And my dream was to be Spider-Man. I'd fly around, I'd Superman, I'd fly around the house wearing my mother's dish towel as my cape. Um, I was never gonna be found without a cape growing up. But then people would say, well, what if you can't be Superman? My backup plan was to be Batman. So those were my two career aspirations.

Uh, but that was an amazing experience sitting at the front desk, just answering phones. And Mickey Dolans walks in and says, hi, I'm here for lunch with Mike. So again, we're throwing around names that, you know, you recognize. I'm

Dr Howie Jacobson: Uhhuh.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": younger viewers may not.

Dr Howie Jacobson: So this, this was after this, this was after Laurel Canyon,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": uh,

Dr Howie Jacobson: right? Like, uh, all, all, all the, all the musicians, you know, um, uh, Joni Mitchell and Crosby, seals and Nash and the, and the, you know, the, the monkeys.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Okay. Okay. So they were already starting on the, the, uh, the oldie circuit, the, the nostalgia circuit at that point.

I worked in the theme park business as a project manager. And I talk about that in my TED Talk, the project I managed in China, um, which kind of was my origin story of visual thinking. 'cause it's to communicate across language and cultural lines. I had to pick up my pen and do, did a lot of drawing, a lot of sketching, even though I was not a great artist.

We did a lot of nonverbal and visual communication. So that's the first time the light bulb went off. Metaphor. That's, uh, that, hey, we communi, we need to communicate visually, especially to get an idea out of our head and into the heads of other people. So my, my catchphrase is how do you get people to see what you're saying?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Got

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": my origin story that brings us up to the end of my LA years. So I was out there for 10 years. I moved back to New York and ended up randomly with a job for a management training company. And then I got hooked on management leadership books.

I realized all my horrible bosses that I had, that was the recurring theme in my life and career up until that point was just really awful. Bosses, bad managers and no leadership. But I discovered all these books and it was like, that's what I've been doing ever since, is management, leadership, and helping to make the world a better place.

One leader at a time.

Dr Howie Jacobson: nice, nice. So I'm, I'm struck between. My own reaction to you saying you worked at Ogilvy and Mather and working in television, which both c are from the inside might feel a little bit similar, like they're about creativity and ex and communication and expression. When I think of, and I spent, I'm, I'm saying this as a guy who's a marketer for 10 years.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, I mean, ultimately everything I do and everything, you know, when you think about it, it's all about storytelling, right? I mean, that's the bottom line when you think of marketing, advertising, television, entertainment, um, communication, leadership, it's, it's storytelling essential to all of it. And what's interesting is a lot of people think, I teach leadership at NYU and Columbia. And most people assume I was a business major when I was an English literature major with a back, with a concentration in Shakespeare and poetry. So, um, my father's like poetry. What the hell are you gonna do with poetry? Is you sit under a tree rhyming all day. It's like, that's not a tough way to make a living, but I weave in the humanities and the arts and literature and pop culture into everything I do.

And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I discovered Ikigai, and it's very similar, but I think that's the, the inter that, that's the thematic link between my childhood pop culture being an English major and everything I've done since it's all about people communication and storytelling and, and with metaphor being a key, visual thinking being a key.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Well, I'll, I'll drop, I'll drop a name, um, in, when, when I lived in North Carolina. I, I, I, I'm an ultimate Frisbee player. Um, and I would volunteer to captain one of the teams in the local, uh, fall and spring leagues because if I didn't, I wouldn't get any playing time 'cause I wasn't very good. So if I was the captain, I could at least put myself in a fair amount.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Mm-hmm.

Dr Howie Jacobson: one of the, one of the players on the, on our team, um, I, the name sounded familiar. I didn't know why it was, uh, Jed Purdy, which is a, which is a great name. Like if you just hear the name and you don't know him, you're like, that's a great name.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Mm-hmm.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Um, and I. Discovered he was, he was then a professor at Duke and he was, you know, young for being a professor, a law professor.

And I think Seinfeld then had some episodes in which they had a character playing a Geniah Purdy, um, kind of cut, cutting him back down. So that's, that's my Seinfeld, uh,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Alright. Great. Great. Yeah. Yeah. So again, we aware that's a. A big part of visual leadership and visual thinking is what we know this has so much to do. Our awareness has to do with our paradigms, right? What we see and what we miss. We pick up on things that are within our lens from our culture, our upbringing, our schooling, you know, our interests, all those kinds of things.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": probably know this and spot them.

So again, it's a lot of it has to do with awareness, right? What we know this and what we see. We go through life with these blinders on. Um, and I'd say, you know, I was one of the metaphors I used that managers look through a microscope, leaders look through a telescope, and innovators look through a kaleidoscope, right?

So just

Dr Howie Jacobson: Ah.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": three different lenses, uh, that we look at the world through will determine what we see, but also what we miss.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. Nice. So one of the things I really appreciate about your writing and the thinking behind it is you'll find a story. I think you'll find a story that you like that's gonna stick in people's minds, and it's gonna be fun to tell and fun to hear. And then you'll find the meaning in it. I'm thinking about right, Donna, the dear lady.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Mm. Yeah.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": yeah. That's such a wacky, crazy story for, for those who don't know it. Um, long story short, so this woman called into a talk radio show saying what, you know, asking, why don't they move the deer Cross crossing signs? To a less populated area where the deer are less like, would be safer crossing in traffic.

And the hosts were like, uh, the signs are for the drivers, not for the deer, but just, uh, yeah, I just, that always stuck with me. It's such a wacky story and I, I love it for that reason. Like every growing up as a kid, one of the other chapters in my book is every time we crossed a bridge that said, uh, you know, draw a bridge, my father would say, Hey, gimme a pencil.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Huh.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": It's so stupid. One of those really awful corny dad jokes, but you always remember it. Now, every time you see a sign that says draw a bridge, you're gonna see it through a different lens if you haven't already. Right. So, yeah. So that's one of those fun, quirky stories. But that's a great point. I always say to my students, leadership lessons are always hiding in plain sight if we just stop to notice them.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah, well, you also define leadership very broadly. You say, you know, your job, your, your, uh, mission is to help leader one, help the world, one leader at a time, even if you're just leading yourself. Right? So, so that's, that's pretty much all of us.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah. I once attended a leadership symposium at at NYU with all these different leadership, professors across the, the, uh, school. And there were two camps. There was capital L leadership. Like leadership is only, you're only a leader if you're a VP or CEO if you have a leadership title. And the other camp was the small L category, which everyone's a leader.

Even if you just, like you just said, I said to my students, how many of you are leaders? And very few raise their hand. And I say, are you do, do you do these things? And it turns out you're leading your life and you're managing your life. So when you combine the two and say, you know what? I am a leader.

How could I, how could I become a better and more effective leader in my society and in the world?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And it's, in some ways

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": empowering.

Dr Howie Jacobson: it's, sorry, say that again. I missed it.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I'd say it's empowering to think of yourself as a leader as opposed to something I will never attain, right?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm. Right. And I, you know, I think it's, may it, maybe the word itself in its connotations is a little bit unfortunate that we have to kind of gr, you know, wrench it from, from the upper echelons of, of, of power. Um, you know what, what really, um, helped me was to think about leading, and I got this from Peter Bregman at one of his coach trainings, said that, you know, we're often working with leaders, but in a, in a coaching.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, I mean, one of the things I do, one of my side gigs do I have my button? I don't have my button around. I volunteer for Big Apple greeter. So I'm one of the New Yorkers who shows people around New York. Um, don't start calling me for a tour, but I show people around New York just to. New York a friendlier place.

'cause a lot of people traveling here from other places feel very intimidated by it. The big building, the the fast base. But if I just say, Hey, I'm showing around a couple from Australia and saying there's the Empire State Building, or this is how you get to, you know, wall Street or whatever, I'm leading.

The concept, and this comes from Francis Hesselbein, and this comes from somebody and Robert Greenleaf coined the term. being a leader is being a servant, right? It's helping other people to showing them the path, creating the next generation of leaders. Um, my job is to serve rather than to be served.

Right? So it's a whole different way of thinking about leadership that a lot of times people don't even think about. They just toss the word around, but we're all seeing it through a different lens.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And, and you had a story about your experience of servant leadership, I think, was it Jeff was

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": yeah, yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Um,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": actually Seth, the CEO

Dr Howie Jacobson: Seth.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": my former company,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Okay.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": was the CEO, Jeff was my boss, and Jeff is, and now, you know, a friend, colleague, et cetera. But yeah, Seth is the one who said, I'm hungry. I'm gonna get some potato chips. And he came back with a whole basket of chips and cookies and went round table by table. Not every CEO is gonna do that. They're gonna say, I'm hungry. Get me a someone, get me a ch you know, a cookie. Right? So just that different, it's a very small thing, stopping by someone's desk and saying, Hey, how's your day going? You know, for if you've ever had your leader, you know, what your, one of your bosses or a CEO do that, it's just a, you know, it's a different way of leaving as opposed to into my office, them stopping by your desk and say, Hey, how's it going?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And that rhymed with, uh, a story from my, uh, early years. I was a, a teacher and I, so I taught all through college to make more money than I would by, uh, you know, serving, flipping burgers in the, in the food hall. Um, and I had, you know, uh, bosses there. And then I, I taught at a prestigious, uh, prep school for a year, and I had supervisors.

And then my, um, sec, second or third year outta college, I, I landed in a small Quaker school. And the, the head of the school, we were, we went on a camping trip to, uh, to Blairstown and somebody in the dining hall spilled something and you know, it clanked and know, of course everybody, you know, cheers when that happens.

And the principal, the Jane, the head of the school immediately bent down and started cleaning it up. And I was flabbergasted. Like it was so different from any experience I've had with a leader.

Dr Howie Jacobson: And, and it clearly was like she was leading it wa you know, it was, it was servant leadership, but it was also role modeling.

It was also, you know, a genuine impulse. I don't think she was strategizing. It was just like, this is the person who had, you know, had created this environment and clearly knew the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the lessons and, and the qualities she wanted to impart into the world. And this was just an expression of it.

So it, it, it rhymed with your story of, of Seth.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. So I'm thinking about my audience and most of them I think are not leaders in a capital l positional leadership sense, or they might be in, in, in certain circumstances. But every, everyone I think people, um, gravitate to this podcast because they're interested in contributing to a better world. And you have, you've shared a lot of tools and strategies that can empower people to do that, both in terms of, you know, their, their own lives and being more influential with others and, and also aspects of management of efficiency and just getting things done.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I mean, in today's post pandemic world where the whole work from a home versus return to office versus hybrid thing is a heated conversation. cha some among the challenges are how do you build culture? How do you onboard people? How do you stay connected when people are not always in the office at the same time?

You can't stop by someone's desk. If they're working from home that day. You can't say, Hey, it's pop into my office or go, let's go grab lunch together. So it's like, what's the equivalent of that? I think that's one of the challenges of leadership today is how do you, you know, forget who said, I think it was, uh, Warren Bennis who said leadership is like herding cats.

So how do you not work 24 hours a day and yet still be there for your people, right? So those are some of the challenges. We need to delegate more. We need to be more proactive rather than reactive in reaching out to people, you know, setting, you know, one-on-one meetings with people and keeping those meetings.

One of my, you know, coaching clients, he cancels 90% of the time his one-on-one meetings with his people, and it creates this all right? I guess that doesn't matter that much, I guess it's not that important. And then when you do check in with them, it shouldn't just be about tasks. How's that project going?

It's how are you doing? Right? So again, it's just being more consciously aware, it's being more human, it's being more, um, trying to connect with people. So those are some of the things that leaders really need to be thinking about. Um, it's more complex than ever, but it can be done. 'cause there are people who are who, who are doing it.

Do you have suggestions or examples of people who are doing this well?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I mean, not a lot, but again, um, one of the, I I I, one of the courses I teach at NYU, I usually teach in person during the pandemic. I taught online. I'm teaching a course This, I just taught a course, this course this semester, and I'm teaching it again in the summer. That's asynchronous and, and if you think about synchronicity, it's about timing, right?

Right? Did you make a contribution? Um, so that's the key thing is like what's the equivalent of that, whether you're online or offline to having your camera on mic on and and adding value. I think that's one of the challenges of leadership and to encourage people to speak up and speak out and engage with people.

So everyone's still figuring it out 'cause it's so new and some people are doing it well, most aren't. So I think that's one of the challenges is like, you know, if you have a company town hall, someone could just say, oh just, I'm just gonna watch the recording 'cause it's not interactive. So a key is. Make things interactive and engaging, have a chat box, allow people to turn their mics on.

So I think that's one of the key issues in this digital world that we're in today.

That, uh, that there, there's ways in which I think I am becoming weaker as a thinker, uh, because of my reliance. And I think it's, you know, I can see, I can see it becoming very addictive.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah. It's funny, as you were saying that I was, I was thinking when I lived in la, um. I've seen people circle the parking lot for a close parking spot to the gym. You're gonna work five miles on the treadmill, but you won't walk five steps to the door of the gym. Right? So it's like people wait there for a half hour waiting for a parking spot right in front of the door.

It's like, what's the, you know, we need to change our thinking, right? So that's, uh, that always resonated. Talk about observation out in the wild. That's one that always made me laugh is the people who needed that closest parking space, uh, even parking in a handicap spot just so they wouldn't have to walk, you know, an extra 10 steps in bright, sunny LA weather.

If you're putting on a book every week, but AI is writing it. Are you real? You know, it's like, so that's, that's the thing. It's like how do you incorporate, how do we not lose the human element, the critical thinking element. Um, 'cause when my students, three students, one, I was reading a pa grading a paper in my class last semester.

I'm like, this did I read this one already? And I went back and I realized two students must have put in the same exact prompt. 'cause the, it was almost the exact word for word wording. And three of the four examples were the exact same examples. Um, that's, that wasn't just coincidence. These were not students even knew each other.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So how, what, what do you do with your students? How do you, how do you teach in a way that mean that that gives them the opportunity and the necessity to develop skills rather than just relying on these tools? I.

If I say, here's what we talked about in class, but give me an outside example. From the world, from the news, from sports, from entertainment, from another, you know, something else that you read. They have to integrate. So this is an exercise in integrative thinking and creative thinking where you have to connect the dots between these three components.

So yes, you could still use, find a workaround and incorporate ai, but you know, if you have to tell me a story, a leadership lesson you learned from your parents, one, you're creating a system that forces people to think, but also hopefully students are more engaged by that. Yeah. Let me think about, so what did I learn about leadership from my parents?

Right? Just tell me a story about a time that, uh, your parents did something that was not a, that was an act of leadership, but that backfired, that that work had a negative impact on you. Right? If you engage people with the question, they're more likely to engage with it and with you than if you just ask some direct.

'cause I said you're only fooling yourself in terms of your learning and your thinking and your growth and development if you're just gonna hand in papers submitted by the robots.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Do are, are they nerve, are your students nervous about the future, like for their, their own future and

Dr Howie Jacobson: I.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": future's gonna hold.

Things are ch politically, um, economically. So I'm finding that people are less willing to make long-term commitments because they don't know what the future's gonna bring. So yes, my students are nervous, my senior clients are nervous, everyone's nervous and there's a lot of anxiety, isolation, loneliness.

People are in need of sanity checks. And that's where the human element really, um, comes into play. When you can commiserate with other people and say, Hey, what are you experiencing? What are you feeling? So I would say yes, there's a lot of anxiety out there.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Mm mm.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": all the unknowns, right? People, our jobs that exist today.

My students thought that was a management consulting firm. So you know, our references to be current and as well as our metaphors and our stories.

But also, um, seeing in all this. Chaos, maybe, you know, new, new paradigms being born. And I'm wondering as, as, as, as someone who is not a dinosaur, what, what's your reflection on that?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah. I mean, you know, you know that classic serenity kind of thought process of what can I change and what can I not, what are some things we could get so obsessed and paralyzed by things that are beyond our control? We need to think about what can we, what is within our realm of control? What can I have an impact on?

I'm always thinking about the Starfish story. I used to have a starfish on my desk, but then the legs broke off. Um, uh, you know, starfish story is. You know, for those who don't know, it's like there's a beach with hundreds of starfish washed up on the shore that are still alive. And this young girl or young boy throwing them back into the ocean saying, you know, someone says you can't make a difference 'cause there's so many out there.

So we can expand our circle, we can, you know, work with people. So I think it feels overwhelming and daunting 'cause we can't change the world. Like in baseball, using a baseball analogy, my baseball on my desk, um, you know, you can't, you know, you, you can't hit a grand slam if there's no one on base, right?

So those who don't speak baseball have no idea what I'm talking about. But you can't have to score four runs if you're the, if there's no runners on base, right? So sometimes we're thinking, if I can't do that, then why do anything? So I think that's, we need to shift our mentality and say, all right, what can I do that will make a difference?

What can I do to make the world better, even for one person? So I think that's what we need to do, is start small and then, you know, leadership is about, the big part of leadership is about helping to develop the next generation of leaders, if that's within your realm. That's why I teach, right? When people say, why do you teach?

So I think that's what we need to do is one start, you know, basically think one, one person at a time.

Dr Howie Jacobson: I, I suddenly, uh, had a, a visual of, uh, Mr. Holland's Opus as you were speaking,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": just thinking, I was just thinking that just as I was speaking, but I didn't know how obscure that reference was. But of course you picked up on,

Dr Howie Jacobson: but it could, it could be very obscure.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": someday I'll come back and all my students, in fact, um, this is a true story. This young woman from China just sent me an email.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Oh.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": is where I put when I, when I get thank you notes, when I get, you know, here's a note I got from a, a part a Wall Street trade.

A Wall Street tr Stock Trader sent me a handwritten thank you note saying how much he loved. It was a career highlight for me. Uh, I can't wait to put this new knowledge to work. So when people say, why do you do what you do? It's like, these cards keep the cards and letters coming. But just the idea of, you know, keep a smile for, smile for yourself.

'cause there are times that you're gonna have that bad days or you times that you say, why am I even wasting my time doing this? It's like, you know, keep a reminder, a tangible reminder of those, you know, messages you get. 'cause it's, uh, it's inspirational and it's, it's nice to see the impact we've had on people over the years.

Dr Howie Jacobson: That's beautiful. I, I suddenly realized that if I'd received a note like that, I would've like held it upside down to see if a 20 fell out.

So genuineness about is about just being yourself. Don't say I'm the leader now. There's the new sheriff in town. You're not playing a part. Just bring your true, authentic self to work. That's being genuine. Generous is looking to give more than, to get gracious is about being polite, forgiving human and gratitude.

It was something like that. Some combination of mangling, the quote, but basically the whole idea is like, we're, you know, we're here to help other people, right? So if you have that attitude, how can you do that? Whether you're a student, a teacher, a boss, you know how customer you're in customer service. Um, if you're in customer service and you don't care to serve your customers, then maybe you're not in the right job.

Right? So it's that type of thing. It's having that attitude of how can I help? Right? Regardless of whatever it is that you do.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Nice. Yeah. Um, I had a thought. It's gone. Uh,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Oh, sorry.

Dr Howie Jacobson: may, may, maybe it'll come back. Um, so I, I,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": are other thoughts. I'm sure there are millions of other thoughts in there. So,

Dr Howie Jacobson: yeah. No, no. That was, that was the one Kiss my kiss my Nobel Prize. Goodbye.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Okay. I, I just got a Mitch Mitch Hedberg line. Where do you know Mitch?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I, I've heard the name, but I don't know

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": or

Dr Howie Jacobson: It says, people ask me how, how I come up with jokes. I says, I, I think of something funny, and then I look for a pencil, and if I can't find a pencil, I convince myself it wasn't that funny.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": That's good. That, that works. That's

Dr Howie Jacobson: So.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I actually have an aqua, I, I won't give them a free plug, but, uh, aqua notes, uh, waterproof notepad in my shower. 'cause 90% of my ideas come up in the shower. So, um, and their slogan is, don't let your good ideas go down the drain. So,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Ah.

The worst part way to come up with an idea is to sit down in front of a blank piece of paper or a blank computer screen saying, all right, what can I write? 90% of our

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": come when we're not thinking of them, so we need to capture them. That's why I encourage my clients and my students, keep a journal, capture things in that moment, and then when you need them, they're there.

Like, when I sat down to write my book, I had 15, 20 years worth of content accumulated from writing down all these metaphors and stories and, and, and everything else. So, uh, that's it.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And that's, that's one area where I really am excited about AI because it's so good at capturing and collating and, um, I just, I heard about a new thing like two days ago. Have you heard about this? I think it's called infinity.ai. It's, it's, you buy, it's a little pendant that you buy and it, it records everything.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, we really have to watch what we're saying 'cause you never, you were on video or audio recording all the time. Like, you sent me this great fathom recap of our conversation last week. This was great. I was like, wow, this is, I didn't even know we said that. So it's like that's, uh, but it was really helpful to, you know, I'm a big note taker, but yeah, if you have AI capture it, um, it's a great, you know, we always have to fine tune things.

Things aren't always a hundred percent, but you know, all these AI technologies are making our lives easier. But we also have to, you know. Think about the human side of it as well. Is it accurate? Is it representative? Is this what we want? I love the idea of translation. 'cause when you're talking to people from other languages and other cultures, um, it's really helpful.

You know, with expressions, like I, a lot of professors say they're, their students put, they even collect their cell phones. So they won't be on the, they'll say, put this, put them in the basket. I say to my students, you know, first, first of all, use your, your devices, whether it's your laptop or cell phone, as long as you're paying attention.

So if you're not engaging your students or your people, that's your fault. Right. So that, I think that's the

Dr Howie Jacobson: Well, but

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": restrict the use of technology, but to encourage them to use it for good rather than for evil.

Dr Howie Jacobson: I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on that one from my own experience of, you know, crossing the line into addiction, right? Like, like, you know, you're saying like you have to be more interesting than, you know, cocaine and hookers. You know, like,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I didn't say that. Those are your

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I get the, I get the metaphor. I get the metaphor. We're not talking literally here. That is metaphorical, but

Dr Howie Jacobson: Right, although if, if Ai, if AI gets confused and, and attributes to you that that's, you know, nothing I can do about that.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, no, but we're in a world of it ending interruptions and distractions. So we need to figure out a way to navigate around that. Like, you know, if you're a CEO doing a town hall, are you engaging people? Um, I was coaching A CFO who was bo boring people to death with his, with his, uh, his projections and his numbers.

And I said to him, your numbers are meaningless outside. And I paused and I said, outside of their context and outside the story you're trying to tell, what is the story you're trying to tell people don't care if it's 3.875. the, are we going up? Are we going down? What are we doing with this information?

'cause you could get just drowned in all this data that's available to us now.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Would you tell your, the, uh, the cardiologist story? I just, I just came back last week from a stress test, so it, uh, it resonated well, well with me. Uh.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, I went to the cardiologist for a routine exam and he came back into the room with all the charts and the numbers and everything else, and he said, based on this information, you have a 5% chance of having a heart attack within the next 10 years. And I almost had a heart attack when he said that.

So do you need to lose five pounds? Do you need to exercise more? What does more mean? Right? So all of that's the human elements of the numbers. Otherwise, you can gimme a 5,000 page report with all my data. I don't know what to do with that. So, and I think business people do the same thing. They overload people with numbers and digits, but don't tell us, all right, what is, why should we, what's the, why should I care?

And the what's in it for me for this, right? Why should I be interested? How will I benefit? And what do I do with this information? I think that's the job of leadership, is to interpret that and help point people in the right direction and say, this is what we need to do based on this information that we have.

And I, I remember, I, I would go around and I would give talks and I was more sophisticated than that. And I would, you know, speak to audiences and. You know, tell stories, right? And give before and after, like all the things that engage the mind. And I would all invariably get pushback from a couple of people who are like deep in the movement saying, that's not proof.

You know what, you know, you give us the numbers, give us the studies, show us the P values. And, um, and I, I know, I think there's a, there's a lot, you know, I, I, I love some of the examples and, and, um, suggestions you give around, you know, three out of 10 versus 30%, just to, to again, that we can be aware of limitations of numeracy and limitations of translating numeracy into, into meaning.

But, you know, the saying attribute to Peter Drucker, you know, if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. help us. You know, if you set a goal of, I wanna get from two 30, I'm six four. So 236 pounds is a lot, but it's not. And my goal was to get down to 200, which I did. I hit like 1 99 0.5, not sustainable.

Now I'm like two 10. Um, but. I didn't have to get new clothes. In fact, I did have to get new clothes because I, I was able to get smaller shirts. Um, but that visual of, I have a shirt where my wife is in it with me. So like that visual of, I lost so much weight that I could fit my wife in that old shirt. I keep that shirt just as a visual, visual, tangible reminder.

So it's kinda like, what's your starting point? What's the number? Um, for someone who's a thousand pounds, 36 is great, but. I think we have a ways to go, right? So I think that's the thing, that's the scale. Um, I use the example if I say I have a two 50 average as i'd good or bad. Well, in baseball, it's okay.

In bowling, it's amazing, right? So the number two 50 has no meaning in and of itself. Steve Jobs says this little device holds five gigabytes of data. It means nothing if it's, if you say you can carry around a thousand songs in your pocket, wow, that's pretty cool. I could carry on my CDs with me on this little device, right?

Um, if I'm talking about football, I'm usually talking about this, but someone from Europe might be thinking this, right? So. are football, but you're getting a vis different visual in your mind. And we may be speaking the same language, but thinking different things. So we need to be aware of who are we talking to and try to visualize things.

I call flipping the eye, try to see things through the lens of the other person.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. Yeah. And that's, I think that's, you know, the, the, the key, um, skill, you know, for is this, this kind of em empathy and kind of inversion of awareness.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: 'cause you know, more and more each of us is getting our own curated reality, you know, like.

It's like, are you clear? First of all, are you clear on what you want? And did you communicate clearly to them? 'cause one of my mantras is that I didn't invent it, but people are not mind breathers, right? You could be very clear in your mind of what you want this thing to look like when it's done. But if it doesn't come out that way, whose fault is it?

I have a story in my book, I dunno if you read it. Ice, rice or ice. Has this ever happened to you? I asked for some more ice for my drink. They brought me a ball of white rice, so I, I said, more ice. They heard more rice. So I. I always ask, whose fault was that? You know, was it my fault? Was it their the waiter's fault?

Right? So again, that's a small example, but I also have a larger example in that chapter that cost, you know, it cost my company over a hundred thousand dollars. 'cause we didn't give the client what they were, what they wanted, because we didn't validate our understanding and say, is this what you want? Right? So it happens all the time.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah, I remember one of the first, uh, sales pitches I went to with Peter Bregman when, uh, when I was working for him is we, you know, we sit down and I do almost nothing. 'cause you know, all it's, I'm, I'm, I'm too new at this. It was a, and you know, and he, he does the pitch and, you know, questions back and forth.

And then, um, it's kind of coming to a close and he says, just casually, so, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how well do you feel like we understood your situation and what you need? And they said, nine out of 10. And I was like, that's great. Peter sits back down and says, what did I miss?

Dr Howie Jacobson: And it continued and I've never forgotten that.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": that's great. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I have a similar thing. I have a model earlier in my book called cap, which stands for, put your cap on. CAP stands for confidence, assertiveness, and Presence. So it's a self assessment I do to help people give himself, like, I'm not very confident.

I, I'm, I'm only a four. Like, well, why aren't you a three then?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": a different reframing because, so why aren't you a three? As opposed to a zero and what would make you a five? Right? What's the difference between a four and five? And then little by little you inch that person up the scale. So I love that.

Similar to that Peter approach of that, you know, just getting people to look at things through a different lens, um, is a, is a growth opportunity. So I love that. I'll always remember that. Yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Um, what haven't we covered that's, uh, on your mind or in your heart?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Oh, oh, I know what I want. I know what I wanted to ask you. Um, have you been watching, uh, the studio?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yes. I just finished the last episode. Yes.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Okay. Does it remind you of, uh, of, of real life?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, those are my, uh, yeah, I had flashbacks of my Hollywood years while watching that, so I love the, my favorite episode was the Ron episode, uh, Ron Howard episode, uh, who's known as being one of the truly nice guys, and he just played completely opposite his, his, uh, his nor his characters. So,

Dr Howie Jacobson: I and I, and I, and I thought of that because of your story about honking to, you know, when you were trying to get the studio job and it, that seemed like exactly the sort of scenario that they, they would've put into that show of.

And he always would say, what took you so long? Right? Uh, this was the day bef, you know, this was long before like we had DoorDash or, or you know, any of these delivery services. So he, he opened it up and there wasn't enough chicken in there. He's like, this is not enough chicken. I need you to go back to them and get more chicken.

So I gotta get back in my car with his chicken salad drive another half hour. So it was like, by the way, he wasn't having lunch until like three hours later. But for spite, they put in so much chicken, like the, like, like handfuls, gloves of chicken. He opens it up, it says, now this is the chicken salad.

So I, I had some stamps in my wallet. I gave him one of my stamps because I was already spending 20 minutes trying to get the stamp off without, and I was ripping it. So rather than being yelled at, it was worth 27 cents or whatever the price of a stamp was at that time to just eat the cost. So it's like those are the stupid Hollywood stuff that you, like, you can't make, you can make it up, but, uh, um, real life stories.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Uh.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Not to mention all the horrible bosses stories, um, that, some of which I have in my book. The boss who threw the box of pens at me, 'cause they weren't the right ones. So, um, I would've had many lawsuits, I think in this day and age. Back then, it was just a typical day at the office.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": of our work experiences, our life experiences shape. Like, I wouldn't have all these stories and I wouldn't be, I wouldn't, I, I'll put it this way, I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it was not for all those experiences, good and bad that I had over the 20, 30 years leading up to it. So everything is, uh, Nelson Mandela that I never lose.

I either win or I learn, right? So it's like we need to take every experience, including our wins, uh, and say, all right, what can I learn from this? What can I, how can I use this? How can I transfer this knowledge? To other people. Oh, no, Roosevelt. So learn from the mistakes of others. Life's too short to make them all our ourselves.

Right. So I try to share with people and also finding the humor in situations. I think that's something we both have in common, is just finding the craziness, the wackiness, the humor in these situations. One, 'cause they're learning experiences, but two, they're just funny. Right. The funny, silly, quirky and memorable.

And that's the power of storytelling and, and sharing things with other people and helping them to learn and to grow from it.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": too.

Dr Howie Jacobson: oh. So, uh, any, any new music you're listening to these days?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Uh, I'm still, I just, I think someone once said our musical growth stops when we

Dr Howie Jacobson: I

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": on the day we graduate from college. So I'm still listening to the Ramones and the, and the clash and. Simon Garfunkel. So, uh, I can't think of anything within the last, occasionally I'll, something will pop up on my Spotify mix, but, uh, but not really.

I usually recycle the oldies, which is, uh, to us now, the Clash and the Ramones and the Sex Pistols.

Dr Howie Jacobson: all, I, I think you need to look at your dinosaur again.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": I know when it comes to music, well, I have musical playlist, I have playlists for every topic. So I have like my time management playlist with time, after time, time is on my side, like the whole list. I'm sure you could come up with a million. So every topic I teach my students don't even recognize or appreciate.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Nice.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": management So when they walk in and for like the first five minutes, it's cha cha changes going on.

So, uh, yeah,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Um,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": with

Dr Howie Jacobson: yeah, I,

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": but yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: hmm. I had a playlist that was, uh, for bathroom breaks. I can't remember what was in it, but I tried, I tried to make it ironic.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, people don't always get our R in the or, but I also have my rain mix. Uh, if it's raining, I have my stone, my snow mix. So yeah, pro probably like 20 different Spotify playlists for different thematic topics. So I get it and I appreciate it, even if, uh, other people don't. But when I do workshop with more people of our generation, they get it.

They recognize it and they appreciate it. So, uh, we, we try to please our audiences as much as we can. But yes, I am when it comes to my musical taste.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yes. Okay. Yes.

Dr Howie Jacobson: So you, you, you, you get, you get your dinosaur, uh, carve out.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": yeah. But TV shows like severance, right? You can have a whole con conversation, just, I dunno if you've watched severance, but

Dr Howie Jacobson: I, I have not all, not all of it. I found it too disturbing to finish.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah. Yeah. It's very disturbing. But just the idea of is our work per persona and our home persona the same or different? Right. How do we leave, like when you work from home, there's no off switch, right?

So how do you, what's the equivalent of that? How do you separate so you don't bring your work dresses home with you or your personal, because when I was first, I work. Bosses said to me, leave your personal life at the door. Right? We don't care about your family. We don't care about, you know, whatever. Just, you know, come in, do your work.

And then like, if you had to make a personal phone call during the day to book a dentist appointment, 'cause your tooth was throbbing, that was, you had to do that on your own personal time, right? You couldn't take three minutes, uh, calling long distance when you were actually charged for long distance calls.

Like people can't even understand that today, right? So,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Uh, I re Yeah, I remember, um, one of the companies had, had offered our, uh, I was at the school, I was working, they offered us free Fridays on unlimited long distance on Fridays. Every, all the teachers, like their lunch break breaks, they'll be crammed in the office calling family.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Oh, what's your, what's your favorite Elvis Costello song?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": peace, love, and understanding

Dr Howie Jacobson: I.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": the time. That's my pump up.

So as a leadership tune, there's a lot of, uh, parallels there.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. You know, I heard somebody else sing it and I realized that it was about peace, love, and understanding when, when he, when he sang it, I never got that impression.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": yeah, well, he always sounded angry no matter what he was doing. So,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Alright, cool. So, um, before I let you go, um, who do you, who do you work with? Who, so who's listening to this? Who should say, oh, I should reach out to Todd.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, my day job is I'm an executive coach. I do management training and leadership development, all using my visual leadership approach, methodology and philosophy. Um, anyone who needs help getting other people to see what they're saying could benefit from what I do. So whether it's one-on-one teams.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Great. And where do they find, where do they find you?

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": The two best ways. Todd Cherches.com and it's Cherches with an e. Um, and that's where people can find my TED talk information about my book and my services.

And also just connect with me on LinkedIn. Both of us live on LinkedIn, so, uh, just say you saw me on Howie's show. Connect with me on LinkedIn and uh, happy to continue the conversation right there.

Dr Howie Jacobson: All right. Well, Todd Church, thank you so much. This has been fun. I'm, uh, I'm sure we can have a lot more offline fun conversations that the rest of the world does, doesn't need to listen to. Uh, we'll, we'll keep those going. Um, thanks for the work you do in the world and for taking the time today.

Todd Cherches - author of "VisuaLeadership": Thank you, Howie. Thanks for having me.

Um, technological from ai, which is transforming businesses almost on a daily basis to geopolitical instability, to climate instability. And it feels like one of these sort of mass extinction moments. And I want, I. Good people, good organizations that are working together for solutions to make a better world, to make a more beautiful world to survive these times.

We don't know what the next breakthrough will be. We don't know what the next geopolitical, uh, tectonic shift or eruption will be. And we need skills to be able to deal with the stress in our own lives, to deal with, um, the cultural shifts that are happening all around us. And to be able to. Use AI and to use each other as thinking partners and as resources to get through this and move to a higher level of functioning, and dare I say, consciousness.