Plato, Dualism and Christianity

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Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): That's right.

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We have no script.

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But we're going to be talking

about Plato and today.

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We're going to be talking about.

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Plato's biggest idea, his

biggest ideas, biggest idea.

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And his name means big, right?

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Well, his name means broad.

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So this is his biggest broadest idea.

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That's brightest idea.

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I would say this idea has had more

impact on Western thought than

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any other philosophical idea, man.

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I am on the edge of my seat here.

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There's no way I could prove that.

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Of course.

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run some sort of experiment

or measure that hire some.

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That's why Pitt hire,

hire some Oxford scholars.

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And though.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So his biggest idea is what is it?

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His biggest idea is dualism dualism,

Related to that is the idea of the forms.

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Okay.

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So those are really

part of the same thing.

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But to me, dualism is a more

expansive way of talking about this.

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Okay.

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Dualism, duals.

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I feel like this is a word maybe

we've heard on the podcast.

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You probably do do.

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Do you know what a doula is?

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A myth.

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An idea.

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All right.

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Lay it on me.

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But you're the expert here.

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That's right.

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I get to make fun of you.

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Dualism is that the philosophical

concept that there's a distinction

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between the, the natural world

and the spiritual world is that.

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Yeah, that's not bad.

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Yeah, that's my bad.

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Okay, cool.

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Yeah.

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So it is the idea.

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That reality consists of two

fundamentally different realms.

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And you can label that matter

and spirit are different ways.

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We'll talk about how great it does that.

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But then when you look at this

reality that we are all in.

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It is primarily two different things,

two different realms, and each

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with its own individual properties.

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So what's true.

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One is not true.

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The other.

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Okay.

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So it's not like you and I

We're two different persons.

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But.

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We operate pretty much the same way.

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Right?

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We are males were of a certain

race, where we're both humans.

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So dualism is fundamentally different.

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So metaphysically.

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It means something like the very

nature reality has a dual nature to it.

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There is also a substance dualism, which

usually is applied to the human persona.

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The human person.

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And that is the idea

that humans are made of.

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Two different kinds of things.

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One being my under spirit.

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And one being body.

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And those are fundamentally different.

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Things that were there

combined within a human.

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that's usual, it was called

Substance dualism that we are

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made of two different substances.

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But metaphysical, duals and goes beyond

that because I don't think you would label

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one of those two areas, even a substance.

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It goes deeper than that.

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So is there is the word bipartite.

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Am I thinking about that?

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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You.

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You could call it that.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And so I, I got a pop culture.

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Illustration.

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Have you seen stranger things?

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Is that that's a whole series, right?

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It's a whole series and Netflix series.

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I think I saw one.

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And there's these kids,

I think in Indiana.

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I think it's, I think

it's based in Indiana.

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A shout out.

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To the Hoosiers.

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That's right.

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And, uh, one of them.

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Ends up getting stuck in this

realm called the upside down.

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Hmm.

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And it's underneath, but in

a dif it's a different realm.

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Okay.

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And so it's, it's kind of the same sort

of thing where it just time is different

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and communication and it can interact with

the normal world, but it is a different.

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It's a different dimension, so to speak.

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Okay.

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if you'd seen it, then maybe we could

talk to her a little bit more, but

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that's kind of what my mind goes

to where it's I can't help you out.

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No.

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That's okay.

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All right.

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So let's talk about what it's

supposed to, and then maybe that

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will make this a little bit quicker.

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All right.

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Uh, the main idea that is the

opposite of that, or that it's

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usually posed to is called Vermont is.

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And some people will

pronounce it differently.

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I look Buddhism.

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I don't know why.

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Okay.

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So modalism says everything is

of one kind or one substance.

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So.

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Ultimately everything is one

or there is one kind of thing.

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It's a little bit ambiguous

because the term can mean both.

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For many in the Eastern tradition,

it has the idea of everything.

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Is literally one thing.

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And everything that looks like it's

separate than that is an illusion.

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But you you could also be a

Mona's in a different way.

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For example, you could be a materialist

Monez where you would say the

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only thing that exists is matter.

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No matter takes all

different kinds of forums.

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It can be energy.

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It can be individual things.

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but it's all one kind of thing.

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And that's a Moen is a

materialistic modernism.

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And there are also idealistic modalism

where everything is idea in the sense of.

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Non-physical concepts.

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So George Barkley or Berkeley,

some people mispronounce it.

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He was a Bishop.

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So who is a Christian, but he believed.

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That if God is thinking things in his

mind, Then the idea about physical

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reality with a separate existence.

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Is redundancy.

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Doesn't need to be there.

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And so it's easier for him at

least to think of everything

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simply being in the mind of God.

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Things don't have their

own physical existence.

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It's all thoughts.

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Sound.

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I like that, like the matrix.

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Yeah.

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Kind of.

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Okay.

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Yeah, kind of a simulation,

but that's not a computer.

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It's the mind of God.

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Right?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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It's similar to that.

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So you can be a Mona's to that.

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Can, you can be a materialistic modernist.

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Everything is matter.

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And that's often the viewpoint

associated with naturalism.

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Or you can be in idealistic Mona's.

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Like the Eastern tradition or like

George Barkley or some others.

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So that is the opposite point of view.

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Okay.

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And there is a, of course,

another point of view.

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Uh, you might call pluralism.

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The idea that railed, it consists of

a number of different kinds of things.

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that has not quite been as popular.

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Among philosophers and thinkers for a

number of reasons, probably because.

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It leaves the relationship between

all these different things.

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Unaccounted for.

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It's a little bit more.

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MSCI, I guess.

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Hmm.

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So usually the, conflict is

between dualism and Mona's.

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So w pluralism that's interesting.

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I never even, I mean, I, I associate

that with other things, right.

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But is that a newer philosophy or is it.

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Who's it associated with.

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Well, thank you.

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Probably go back at

least to the Adam mist.

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Well, remember we talked about the Adams.

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Um, I'm sorry.

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Democrates.

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Well, they've viewed.

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Everything is matter.

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But then this matters in the form of

atoms that make individual things.

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Uh, I don't know if you'd classify

them as pluralist in this sense or not.

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Okay.

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But.

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But I think if, you just felt

like you, weren't going to take a

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stance on whether reality is one or

there was a dual layer to it, you

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probably default to that, I guess.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah, so we, so we've got, uh,

monism and we've got dualism

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and dualism is Plato's big idea.

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It is.

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Is it, is it an, Innovation because

before him, it was primarily Mona stick.

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Yeah.

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That's a good question.

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I would say.

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It is an innovation.

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Not because the people before him.

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Would call themselves

Mona's but before him.

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The idea of dualism versus

monism, wasn't really developed.

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It's when he comes on the scene

and develops this, this big.

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Dualistic system.

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Then now this whole concept of reality

being Mona's sticker, dualistic.

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Really comes to the four.

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Um, so then people can debate it.

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Yeah.

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And I'm sure people did

before in some degree.

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But the way he develops this whole system.

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So it wasn't just part of the system.

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It was the foundation of the whole thing.

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Yeah.

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Uh, not only his metaphysics, but

his epistemology theory of knowledge.

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Is ethics.

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Uh, all of this is tied

in with this dualism.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So it's really, the foundation

of everything is trying to do.

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And it is, I call it the most.

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influential idea or the big idea.

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Because it is adopted this part,

the dualism, not everything else.

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Plato taught.

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Almost wholesale and almost

universally by Christian theology.

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Hmm.

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Now not everyone.

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Like I said, Barkley.

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You couldn't call him a dualist

and there are Christians who are

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materialists, in a qualified sense.

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But for the most part, it fits in with.

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Christian theology.

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Christian theology being dualistic

in a slightly different sense though.

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So they, they, they take

this concept and they.

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Adapt it to fit.

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But the teachings of Jesus.

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Yeah.

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And the teachings of the old Testament.

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Okay.

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So that was going to be

my other question is.

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Is the old Testament.

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Hebraic thought.

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Dualistic as well.

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Does that fit pretty

neatly into this category?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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And I think the answer to that is.

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A qualified.

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Yes.

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So, as I understand.

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The philosophy of the Bible.

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There is a dualism, but it's

a little bit different kind.

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So the philosophy of Play-Doh

we'll talk about that in a second.

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But just as a summary.

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It is.

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Uh, dualism between a realm of

spiritual realities or idea realities,

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nonphysical, and this world of physical

things that we experienced did today.

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Now the dualism of the Bible.

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Is kind of like that, but it's a dual is

I'm really between the ultimate creator.

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God.

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And the creation of the physical

creation that he produces or he creates.

263

00:09:28,382 --> 00:09:33,362

So in that sense, there is a dualism

because there is an ultimate value

264

00:09:33,362 --> 00:09:37,352

and there's a, a realm that goes

beyond what we see, but it's not a

265

00:09:37,352 --> 00:09:41,672

dualism between matter and spirit

as much as it's between creator.

266

00:09:42,122 --> 00:09:42,962

And creation.

267

00:09:43,172 --> 00:09:46,142

Um, so that creator creation distinction.

268

00:09:46,682 --> 00:09:50,102

Is really fundamental biblical

thought and in good theology.

269

00:09:51,212 --> 00:09:52,262

I see, I see.

270

00:09:52,592 --> 00:09:53,432

So God exists.

271

00:09:53,702 --> 00:09:54,632

Is any different.

272

00:09:54,632 --> 00:09:57,992

As a different kind of being yes.

273

00:09:58,262 --> 00:09:59,612

In a different realm.

274

00:10:00,332 --> 00:10:04,061

That certainly can come into contact with

the natural world and does, but isn't.

275

00:10:04,122 --> 00:10:08,682

bound by the laws of physics, like we

would be or bound by human limitations.

276

00:10:08,682 --> 00:10:09,372

That kind of thing.

277

00:10:09,432 --> 00:10:09,972

Is that right?

278

00:10:10,002 --> 00:10:10,512

Yes.

279

00:10:10,782 --> 00:10:12,852

And it's, it's even more

radical than that, though.

280

00:10:13,527 --> 00:10:15,657

If we can say that God exists.

281

00:10:16,197 --> 00:10:18,447

We even have to, well, we

even have to qualify that.

282

00:10:19,227 --> 00:10:22,947

To say that something exists normally

means it's part of the furniture of the

283

00:10:22,947 --> 00:10:24,927

universe in our conceptual thinking.

284

00:10:25,377 --> 00:10:26,787

God doesn't exist that way.

285

00:10:27,297 --> 00:10:28,797

He's our part of the universe.

286

00:10:29,637 --> 00:10:30,777

He is there.

287

00:10:31,587 --> 00:10:35,127

And yet he doesn't exist in the

sense of coming into being an

288

00:10:35,127 --> 00:10:38,667

occupying a place within the

furniture of the universe as it were.

289

00:10:38,967 --> 00:10:42,477

He is the one that produces all

that does exist in that sense.

290

00:10:43,047 --> 00:10:47,427

So he's more the producer

of existence rather than one

291

00:10:47,457 --> 00:10:48,957

other being who does exist.

292

00:10:49,317 --> 00:10:51,087

So it's a very fundamental.

293

00:10:52,107 --> 00:10:54,447

A gap between the

creator and the creation.

294

00:10:54,807 --> 00:10:56,667

I think you were talking in.

295

00:10:57,327 --> 00:11:01,107

A number of episodes that go about like,

it is non contingency or something.

296

00:11:01,287 --> 00:11:01,557

Right.

297

00:11:01,557 --> 00:11:04,557

He is a necessary being,

everything else are contingent.

298

00:11:04,587 --> 00:11:05,007

Yeah.

299

00:11:05,007 --> 00:11:05,247

Yeah.

300

00:11:05,277 --> 00:11:06,147

Something like that.

301

00:11:06,177 --> 00:11:06,477

Right.

302

00:11:06,657 --> 00:11:07,947

So that's another way of putting it.

303

00:11:08,473 --> 00:11:09,913

he's just by himself.

304

00:11:10,303 --> 00:11:12,103

He needs nothing outside of himself.

305

00:11:12,733 --> 00:11:15,313

Um, we, that's not true of any of us.

306

00:11:15,313 --> 00:11:15,913

We exist.

307

00:11:16,363 --> 00:11:18,103

Only because he has wilted.

308

00:11:18,553 --> 00:11:18,763

Hmm.

309

00:11:18,883 --> 00:11:21,553

So that's another very

fundamental distinction, right?

310

00:11:22,243 --> 00:11:28,033

He doesn't exist because we want him to

or chose, but we as this because he chose.

311

00:11:28,423 --> 00:11:33,493

And so it applies this idea of

Lordship ownership, sovereignty, right?

312

00:11:33,951 --> 00:11:37,187

it's really the most fundamental

distinction I can think of the

313

00:11:37,187 --> 00:11:39,137

most deep distinction I could.

314

00:11:39,347 --> 00:11:40,517

I can kiss actualize.

315

00:11:40,877 --> 00:11:41,327

Yeah.

316

00:11:42,257 --> 00:11:43,097

It's the deepest.

317

00:11:43,321 --> 00:11:45,691

Idea that I'm unable to conceptualize.

318

00:11:46,561 --> 00:11:47,941

So, well, there's that too.

319

00:11:48,031 --> 00:11:50,911

I mean, we can't really conceptualize

it because we don't experience

320

00:11:50,911 --> 00:11:52,411

it, but now I got you, so, okay.

321

00:11:52,411 --> 00:11:56,790

So that's like that's maybe philosophy of

Christianity or philosophy of the Bible.

322

00:11:57,301 --> 00:11:58,981

And you said it, that fits neatly.

323

00:11:59,911 --> 00:12:04,141

Oh, well, it fits into this idea because

it is dualistic and thinking, right.

324

00:12:04,411 --> 00:12:07,231

So kind of want to bring us back to Plato.

325

00:12:07,351 --> 00:12:07,681

Okay.

326

00:12:07,761 --> 00:12:11,751

Does he, does he have that distinction

between creator and created?

327

00:12:12,552 --> 00:12:13,302

no.

328

00:12:13,421 --> 00:12:14,171

Not really.

329

00:12:14,771 --> 00:12:18,671

And we'll talk about one of the

myths he gives for creation.

330

00:12:19,271 --> 00:12:23,381

Meth not being pejorative term here, but

just to a parable to explain creation.

331

00:12:23,621 --> 00:12:23,891

Okay.

332

00:12:24,011 --> 00:12:26,531

Uh, but I don't know if we'll get

into that today or today or that.

333

00:12:27,366 --> 00:12:28,566

When I say that.

334

00:12:28,566 --> 00:12:31,416

It seems to fit well, His duals and pits.

335

00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:32,496

Well with.

336

00:12:32,496 --> 00:12:35,196

The thought of the Bible

and Christian theology.

337

00:12:35,856 --> 00:12:37,806

I think let's come back to that.

338

00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:38,165

Okay.

339

00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:41,616

Because as I'm trying to explain this,

not the same type of the dualism.

340

00:12:42,096 --> 00:12:45,936

But there is another way in which

it fits in well with what the

341

00:12:45,936 --> 00:12:47,526

Bible teaches about certain things.

342

00:12:47,886 --> 00:12:50,886

Okay, but I think we'll better

understand that if we talked about.

343

00:12:51,306 --> 00:12:54,216

What is dualism consists

of, and then sure.

344

00:12:54,216 --> 00:12:54,786

We'll come back to that.

345

00:12:54,906 --> 00:12:56,556

I'll try not to put the

cart before the horse.

346

00:12:56,616 --> 00:12:56,796

No.

347

00:12:56,796 --> 00:12:57,036

No.

348

00:12:57,216 --> 00:12:57,516

Okay.

349

00:12:57,516 --> 00:12:59,886

So what does, so what does

his dualism consist of?

350

00:12:59,915 --> 00:13:01,866

Is that a, is that a good next question?

351

00:13:01,866 --> 00:13:02,346

Yeah, sure.

352

00:13:02,376 --> 00:13:02,946

Let's talk about that.

353

00:13:02,976 --> 00:13:03,156

Cool.

354

00:13:04,146 --> 00:13:06,156

Uh, I was trying to think

about illustrate this.

355

00:13:06,231 --> 00:13:09,591

because I really want this

to be something understood.

356

00:13:11,061 --> 00:13:13,461

I think the first time I ran

into play it, I'm like, what in

357

00:13:13,461 --> 00:13:14,511

the world is he talking about?

358

00:13:14,511 --> 00:13:16,611

And I think many people

have the experience.

359

00:13:16,641 --> 00:13:18,891

So I'm trying to simplify and visualize.

360

00:13:19,581 --> 00:13:21,201

So I want you to think of.

361

00:13:21,252 --> 00:13:24,222

Maybe a piece of paper, but

better a large white board.

362

00:13:24,642 --> 00:13:26,622

Like we've got one right over

here in your office, right?

363

00:13:27,102 --> 00:13:28,512

So think of a large whiteboard.

364

00:13:29,502 --> 00:13:35,172

And then draw a big fat thick line

horizontally from edge to edge.

365

00:13:35,712 --> 00:13:37,182

So you've got a big marker.

366

00:13:37,344 --> 00:13:39,744

and you write that real

thick from edge to edge.

367

00:13:40,044 --> 00:13:40,314

All right.

368

00:13:40,644 --> 00:13:42,384

So you've just divided the board, right?

369

00:13:42,504 --> 00:13:42,774

Yup.

370

00:13:44,064 --> 00:13:46,944

And then on the left

side, Going up and down.

371

00:13:46,944 --> 00:13:52,771

So make this a vertical the top left

there, you would put something like.

372

00:13:53,341 --> 00:13:55,111

The realm of idea.

373

00:13:55,354 --> 00:13:56,584

or forms.

374

00:13:57,424 --> 00:14:00,874

So that's actually one concept

with two different words.

375

00:14:01,384 --> 00:14:04,984

Sometimes we're going to talk about

ideas, that types of forms, but we

376

00:14:04,984 --> 00:14:06,184

mean pretty much the same thing.

377

00:14:06,514 --> 00:14:06,874

Okay.

378

00:14:07,144 --> 00:14:07,774

It's going to mean that.

379

00:14:08,554 --> 00:14:11,010

Below that on the left

side, you would write.

380

00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,080

The realm of matter.

381

00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:14,580

Okay.

382

00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:14,850

Okay.

383

00:14:15,225 --> 00:14:16,455

So you've got form.

384

00:14:16,455 --> 00:14:19,365

Above or idea, and then you've got matter.

385

00:14:19,785 --> 00:14:20,595

We'll come back to that.

386

00:14:21,337 --> 00:14:23,017

Take a couple inches to the right.

387

00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:24,395

above the line, you'd write.

388

00:14:24,845 --> 00:14:25,925

Non-physical.

389

00:14:26,345 --> 00:14:30,035

So this is the non-physical realm below

that you're going to write physical RO.

390

00:14:30,749 --> 00:14:32,039

Another space to the right.

391

00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:33,989

And above the line, you can write eternal.

392

00:14:34,284 --> 00:14:35,484

below the line.

393

00:14:35,484 --> 00:14:36,954

Uh, temporal Nani turtle.

394

00:14:38,184 --> 00:14:39,594

Or things that happened within the time.

395

00:14:40,104 --> 00:14:40,974

Above the line.

396

00:14:40,974 --> 00:14:42,384

You'd write a changing.

397

00:14:43,134 --> 00:14:45,201

And below the line you would write.

398

00:14:45,201 --> 00:14:45,831

Mutable.

399

00:14:45,861 --> 00:14:46,461

If you want to be.

400

00:14:46,592 --> 00:14:48,872

Uh, technical or changeable changing.

401

00:14:49,352 --> 00:14:52,246

Okay above the line, you

would write to the right.

402

00:14:52,276 --> 00:14:52,756

He was right.

403

00:14:52,786 --> 00:14:53,386

Soul.

404

00:14:54,256 --> 00:14:56,656

And below the line, you would write body.

405

00:14:57,688 --> 00:14:58,378

And then.

406

00:14:58,526 --> 00:15:01,976

Maybe on the far side, again,

going vertically this time

407

00:15:01,976 --> 00:15:03,386

in all caps, you might write.

408

00:15:03,386 --> 00:15:04,256

Value.

409

00:15:04,256 --> 00:15:06,866

or valuable and then below the line.

410

00:15:06,866 --> 00:15:07,856

Value less.

411

00:15:09,346 --> 00:15:09,586

All right.

412

00:15:09,586 --> 00:15:11,026

So let's explore that a little bit.

413

00:15:11,056 --> 00:15:11,206

Can.

414

00:15:11,296 --> 00:15:12,016

Can we pause for a second?

415

00:15:12,046 --> 00:15:12,316

Yeah.

416

00:15:12,706 --> 00:15:12,976

Okay.

417

00:15:13,446 --> 00:15:13,716

Okay.

418

00:15:13,716 --> 00:15:15,396

So we've got this white board.

419

00:15:15,684 --> 00:15:20,364

And at the top, we've got this realm

and from the left to right, it goes.

420

00:15:20,728 --> 00:15:21,899

Realm of the form.

421

00:15:21,899 --> 00:15:22,859

Or ideas.

422

00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:23,159

Uh, huh.

423

00:15:23,549 --> 00:15:26,189

And then next to that, it's non-physical.

424

00:15:26,412 --> 00:15:27,492

And then it's being.

425

00:15:27,492 --> 00:15:28,752

And then it's eternal.

426

00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:30,294

And that's unchanging.

427

00:15:30,366 --> 00:15:31,596

And then it's soul.

428

00:15:32,346 --> 00:15:33,816

And then it's knowledge.

429

00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:35,886

And then it's valuable, right?

430

00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:36,966

Yeah, actually.

431

00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:39,936

I wrote that down, but I

forgot to include being yes.

432

00:15:39,966 --> 00:15:41,165

Put being above the line.

433

00:15:41,286 --> 00:15:41,676

Okay.

434

00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:42,096

Okay.

435

00:15:42,126 --> 00:15:42,396

Cool.

436

00:15:42,426 --> 00:15:42,966

Go ahead and read.

437

00:15:43,086 --> 00:15:44,406

And then Underneath.

438

00:15:44,436 --> 00:15:47,586

So this is the realm of matter, right?

439

00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:51,006

You've got physical as

opposed to non-physical.

440

00:15:51,066 --> 00:15:52,596

You've got becoming.

441

00:15:52,643 --> 00:15:56,843

As a post-it being, you've got

temporal, you've got changing.

442

00:15:57,233 --> 00:15:59,813

You've got body, you've got opinion.

443

00:15:59,843 --> 00:16:02,063

And you've got valueless.

444

00:16:02,363 --> 00:16:02,663

Right.

445

00:16:02,963 --> 00:16:06,413

It's actually might be helpful for people

to pause and write that down or rewind it.

446

00:16:06,413 --> 00:16:06,593

And.

447

00:16:07,043 --> 00:16:10,788

And write it down so you can kind of see,

because these are, Continuation there.

448

00:16:10,788 --> 00:16:11,028

Right.

449

00:16:11,298 --> 00:16:12,378

What's the word I'm looking for.

450

00:16:12,633 --> 00:16:15,663

Uh, kind of like build

on each other, like yeah.

451

00:16:15,693 --> 00:16:17,883

They build on each other

and they overlap isn't.

452

00:16:17,913 --> 00:16:18,123

Yeah.

453

00:16:18,123 --> 00:16:20,373

There's an overlapping and

kind of oppression here.

454

00:16:20,913 --> 00:16:22,533

Progression and an interlacing.

455

00:16:22,803 --> 00:16:23,043

Cool.

456

00:16:23,103 --> 00:16:23,733

That's a nice word.

457

00:16:23,733 --> 00:16:23,973

Isn't it?

458

00:16:24,093 --> 00:16:24,243

Yeah.

459

00:16:24,273 --> 00:16:24,903

It's like links.

460

00:16:24,993 --> 00:16:25,323

How's that.

461

00:16:25,833 --> 00:16:26,163

There you go.

462

00:16:27,333 --> 00:16:27,573

All right.

463

00:16:27,573 --> 00:16:32,662

So let's talk about these and, um, let's

talk about your wonderful wife, Abby.

464

00:16:32,812 --> 00:16:33,232

Okay.

465

00:16:33,382 --> 00:16:33,592

All right.

466

00:16:33,982 --> 00:16:35,872

So I want you to my wife's name.

467

00:16:37,012 --> 00:16:37,732

Out your mouth.

468

00:16:39,052 --> 00:16:40,972

That's going to be dated

very quickly that references.

469

00:16:41,002 --> 00:16:41,332

Yes.

470

00:16:41,332 --> 00:16:41,662

Yes.

471

00:16:41,752 --> 00:16:43,042

Well, Was that will Smith.

472

00:16:43,102 --> 00:16:43,402

Yeah.

473

00:16:43,642 --> 00:16:43,972

Okay.

474

00:16:44,752 --> 00:16:45,532

We can cut that one out.

475

00:16:46,552 --> 00:16:47,242

No, we'll leave it at.

476

00:16:47,302 --> 00:16:47,572

Okay.

477

00:16:47,812 --> 00:16:48,052

All right.

478

00:16:48,052 --> 00:16:51,562

So I want you to picture

her appearance in your mind.

479

00:16:51,832 --> 00:16:52,282

Okay.

480

00:16:52,342 --> 00:16:53,242

You see her everyday, right?

481

00:16:53,302 --> 00:16:54,052

So they shouldn't be hard.

482

00:16:55,042 --> 00:16:55,432

Now.

483

00:16:55,812 --> 00:16:59,442

I want you to, you don't have to

do this, but for the purpose of

484

00:16:59,502 --> 00:17:02,361

illustration, I would encourage

you to go over to that whiteboard.

485

00:17:02,587 --> 00:17:07,867

And draw a picture of that image in your

mind for a periods of her appearance.

486

00:17:07,989 --> 00:17:09,069

On the whiteboard.

487

00:17:09,655 --> 00:17:10,315

Could you do that?

488

00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:11,040

Yes.

489

00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:11,520

And no.

490

00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:11,910

All right.

491

00:17:11,910 --> 00:17:14,910

I mean, you could, yeah,

it might not work too well.

492

00:17:15,420 --> 00:17:17,160

It wouldn't look like her, right.

493

00:17:17,430 --> 00:17:20,310

What if you're a really good artist

though, it'd look more like her,

494

00:17:20,609 --> 00:17:22,109

depending on what kind of artist I am.

495

00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:23,099

That's true.

496

00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,190

Or to take another medium as it were.

497

00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:29,460

Imagine that you had Play-Doh

since we're talking about.

498

00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:32,640

There it is, but you've got

Plato, the modeling clay,

499

00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,840

and I encourage you to make.

500

00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:34,970

Figure.

501

00:17:35,033 --> 00:17:36,293

Of her face or head.

502

00:17:36,533 --> 00:17:37,223

With the Play-Doh.

503

00:17:37,823 --> 00:17:41,513

Um, if you're a really skilled, you could

probably pull, pull that off, right?

504

00:17:41,543 --> 00:17:41,873

Yeah.

505

00:17:42,923 --> 00:17:45,683

Now are any of those though, going to be.

506

00:17:45,753 --> 00:17:49,563

As valuable and as real

as the woman herself?

507

00:17:49,623 --> 00:17:50,403

No, no.

508

00:17:50,583 --> 00:17:50,973

Why not.

509

00:17:51,933 --> 00:17:52,293

Well there.

510

00:17:52,533 --> 00:17:53,013

I mean.

511

00:17:53,403 --> 00:17:54,933

For all kinds of reasons, but.

512

00:17:55,593 --> 00:17:57,903

Uh, well, they lack any sort of life.

513

00:17:57,963 --> 00:17:58,263

Okay.

514

00:17:58,293 --> 00:18:01,906

First of all, but And the way that they

don't even get close to actually what

515

00:18:01,906 --> 00:18:04,720

she looks like or acts like, you know?

516

00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:05,170

Yeah.

517

00:18:05,530 --> 00:18:07,750

There are two dimensional instead

of three-dimensional right while.

518

00:18:08,020 --> 00:18:08,710

I wouldn't be, but.

519

00:18:10,510 --> 00:18:12,550

Um, let's see.

520

00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:13,900

Yeah.

521

00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:14,260

I don't know.

522

00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:15,430

Variety of reasons.

523

00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:15,910

Okay.

524

00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:16,570

Yeah.

525

00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:18,220

And you're onto the one

I'm trying to get at.

526

00:18:18,658 --> 00:18:23,338

Is that there is a limitation, not only

of your skill or whoever's making that,

527

00:18:23,398 --> 00:18:25,648

but other material itself the matter.

528

00:18:25,678 --> 00:18:25,978

Yeah.

529

00:18:26,368 --> 00:18:30,033

So if you're making the bust of her head

the matter's going to be the Play-Doh.

530

00:18:30,543 --> 00:18:33,629

If you're drawing it, the matter

is going to be your pencil or, The

531

00:18:33,629 --> 00:18:34,829

marker, whatever you're going to use.

532

00:18:34,859 --> 00:18:35,129

Sure.

533

00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:36,479

So.

534

00:18:36,738 --> 00:18:38,178

What Plato is arguing.

535

00:18:38,178 --> 00:18:42,195

Is that when you see anything around

you with your physical eyes, so you

536

00:18:42,195 --> 00:18:44,745

see a horse in a field or, or a tree.

537

00:18:45,705 --> 00:18:50,415

What you're actually looking at

is something like if you made a

538

00:18:50,415 --> 00:18:52,815

Play-Doh copy of your wives face.

539

00:18:53,445 --> 00:18:55,005

Or drew it on a board.

540

00:18:55,455 --> 00:18:57,525

Hmm, you're seeing a copy.

541

00:18:57,576 --> 00:18:59,346

A physical copy of something.

542

00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:01,806

That is much more real.

543

00:19:02,106 --> 00:19:04,386

Beautiful and wonderful than that thing.

544

00:19:04,416 --> 00:19:05,106

You're looking at.

545

00:19:05,766 --> 00:19:07,476

What holds that thing back?

546

00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:09,516

Is that, that, that

it's made out of matter.

547

00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:13,596

Um, just like that Plato doesn't give

you the ability to create a life.

548

00:19:13,686 --> 00:19:15,456

That's an interesting thought, right?

549

00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:21,306

So that is his theory of the Forbes

is that there is within your mind.

550

00:19:21,576 --> 00:19:23,136

You've got a form of what she looks like.

551

00:19:23,166 --> 00:19:23,346

Right.

552

00:19:23,376 --> 00:19:24,306

You've got an image.

553

00:19:24,576 --> 00:19:25,116

An idea.

554

00:19:25,656 --> 00:19:26,826

That's a mental thing.

555

00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,094

And as far as an idea, at least

could be It's fleshed out.

556

00:19:30,094 --> 00:19:30,334

It's.

557

00:19:30,444 --> 00:19:31,644

it was looks just like her.

558

00:19:32,424 --> 00:19:36,894

But you're not able to replicate that

in physical things because of the very

559

00:19:36,894 --> 00:19:38,724

limitations of the physical things.

560

00:19:39,744 --> 00:19:40,014

Hmm.

561

00:19:40,584 --> 00:19:43,194

What he's arguing is

that's true of all reality.

562

00:19:43,643 --> 00:19:45,563

The physical things we see here.

563

00:19:45,563 --> 00:19:49,283

Are connected to some idea or form.

564

00:19:49,366 --> 00:19:53,866

That really exists in an intellectual

realm or a non-physical realm.

565

00:19:54,766 --> 00:19:58,419

And yet the things here, because

they're made out of matter, don't

566

00:19:58,419 --> 00:20:01,749

represent those things as well

as they, as they ever could.

567

00:20:02,619 --> 00:20:04,599

So that's just theory of

forms that everything.

568

00:20:05,439 --> 00:20:07,929

Everything here that we

can touch and experience.

569

00:20:08,349 --> 00:20:14,169

Has some sort of nonphysical perfect

form or idea that has been combined with

570

00:20:14,169 --> 00:20:15,969

matter to create the thing that you see.

571

00:20:17,019 --> 00:20:17,259

Hmm.

572

00:20:17,409 --> 00:20:17,799

Okay.

573

00:20:18,069 --> 00:20:18,309

Yeah.

574

00:20:18,609 --> 00:20:20,889

And that's basically the

idea of form, so everything.

575

00:20:21,249 --> 00:20:25,397

So the pen or the marker

or the book, it's a lesser.

576

00:20:25,445 --> 00:20:29,775

Representation of some perfect

form of that in another realm.

577

00:20:30,165 --> 00:20:30,465

Yeah, kind.

578

00:20:30,915 --> 00:20:32,655

That that's the kind of idea, right?

579

00:20:33,272 --> 00:20:37,292

maybe the easiest way to conceptualize

it is to think of a perfect horse.

580

00:20:38,072 --> 00:20:40,052

And then thinking about

natural, physical horse.

581

00:20:40,682 --> 00:20:41,912

Because that physical horse.

582

00:20:41,912 --> 00:20:42,757

Is going to be.

583

00:20:42,757 --> 00:20:44,947

less than that ideal in certain ways.

584

00:20:45,217 --> 00:20:47,017

And certainly it's going to

be born, so it's going to be

585

00:20:47,047 --> 00:20:48,277

weak and that's going to die.

586

00:20:48,667 --> 00:20:51,004

The the real ideal horse doesn't do that.

587

00:20:51,004 --> 00:20:51,604

That's eternal.

588

00:20:51,634 --> 00:20:52,474

That's unchanging.

589

00:20:52,948 --> 00:20:55,978

it's not going to Metro up to any of

that because it's a physical thing.

590

00:20:56,308 --> 00:20:59,098

It's very nature of physicality limits.

591

00:20:59,098 --> 00:21:01,168

It keeps it From the ideal, that form.

592

00:21:01,708 --> 00:21:02,788

Okay, this is, yeah.

593

00:21:02,788 --> 00:21:04,318

So that makes sense of your.

594

00:21:04,738 --> 00:21:06,358

Your initial white board diagram.

595

00:21:06,358 --> 00:21:06,718

So.

596

00:21:06,875 --> 00:21:11,322

I understand the horse that exists in the

idea around where the form round versus

597

00:21:11,352 --> 00:21:13,482

the horse that exists in the matter realm.

598

00:21:14,082 --> 00:21:15,972

But the form is non-physical.

599

00:21:16,002 --> 00:21:17,712

The matter is physical.

600

00:21:18,031 --> 00:21:19,207

The horse in the realm of the.

601

00:21:19,207 --> 00:21:22,087

Forms is being it's perfect.

602

00:21:22,117 --> 00:21:22,567

Exactly.

603

00:21:22,597 --> 00:21:26,527

Being at not becoming, it's not

becoming meaning growing into

604

00:21:26,527 --> 00:21:27,877

something or becoming something else.

605

00:21:28,515 --> 00:21:30,075

but the horse, the physical horses.

606

00:21:30,375 --> 00:21:32,775

Physical horses, the physical horses.

607

00:21:32,802 --> 00:21:36,192

temporal versus the

non-physical ones eternal.

608

00:21:36,702 --> 00:21:38,262

Changing versus unchanging.

609

00:21:38,853 --> 00:21:39,783

Yeah, that makes sense.

610

00:21:39,873 --> 00:21:42,813

I'm looking at some of those other ones,

soul versus body, your knowledge versus

611

00:21:42,813 --> 00:21:44,613

opinion or value versus value less.

612

00:21:44,613 --> 00:21:45,963

That's kind of, yeah, let's talk.

613

00:21:46,323 --> 00:21:50,163

The soul versus body, that's going

to be more distinctly about human.

614

00:21:50,193 --> 00:21:51,273

So we'll come back to that one.

615

00:21:51,903 --> 00:21:53,613

But opinion versus knowledge.

616

00:21:53,913 --> 00:21:57,513

So again, I talked about how you

tied his epistemological theory

617

00:21:57,513 --> 00:21:58,503

of knowledge into all this.

618

00:21:59,043 --> 00:22:01,023

You can only really have

knowledge of the form.

619

00:22:01,222 --> 00:22:05,512

Because knowledge implies a degree

of certainty and understanding.

620

00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:08,242

That cannot be attached

to physical things here.

621

00:22:08,992 --> 00:22:11,692

And that's built because they're

changing, but also because the

622

00:22:11,722 --> 00:22:13,559

limitations of human senses.

623

00:22:13,949 --> 00:22:14,219

Hmm.

624

00:22:14,669 --> 00:22:16,289

So you cannot have.

625

00:22:16,289 --> 00:22:19,229

True full knowledge in

Plato sense of the term.

626

00:22:19,470 --> 00:22:21,690

of the physical things

only have the forums.

627

00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,460

You can have opinion about those things.

628

00:22:23,970 --> 00:22:25,230

Is, does the opinion.

629

00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:26,610

And value.

630

00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:31,244

Do those also get into like, The idea

of ethics where like you and I could.

631

00:22:31,381 --> 00:22:34,921

Debate whether this horse or

this horse is better based on

632

00:22:34,921 --> 00:22:36,991

how well they correspond to that.

633

00:22:37,108 --> 00:22:37,924

Horse in there.

634

00:22:37,924 --> 00:22:39,094

Realm of the forms.

635

00:22:39,874 --> 00:22:42,124

Well, it does get an

ethics, not quite that way.

636

00:22:42,214 --> 00:22:42,604

Okay.

637

00:22:42,904 --> 00:22:46,324

Um, so his ethics are going

to be tied into this idea.

638

00:22:46,894 --> 00:22:48,694

Because what he's going to argue.

639

00:22:49,414 --> 00:22:52,414

And this is a little bit more

difficult to conceptualize.

640

00:22:52,414 --> 00:22:53,524

So the horse illustration.

641

00:22:53,974 --> 00:22:57,964

Is the easiest one, but he's going

to argue that there are also ideal.

642

00:22:57,964 --> 00:22:59,464

forms of justice.

643

00:23:00,094 --> 00:23:01,144

And goodness.

644

00:23:01,624 --> 00:23:02,434

And beauty.

645

00:23:03,034 --> 00:23:03,664

And love.

646

00:23:04,444 --> 00:23:06,784

And all these things that we should value.

647

00:23:07,504 --> 00:23:10,054

So part of the ethics

were really the main part.

648

00:23:10,804 --> 00:23:14,644

Is learning what those are

and then practicing that.

649

00:23:15,088 --> 00:23:15,748

That's interesting.

650

00:23:15,778 --> 00:23:16,348

Yeah, it is.

651

00:23:16,648 --> 00:23:18,868

But it's more difficult to conceptualize.

652

00:23:19,143 --> 00:23:21,243

What does the ideal form?

653

00:23:21,278 --> 00:23:21,768

Of.

654

00:23:21,768 --> 00:23:22,698

justice look like.

655

00:23:23,208 --> 00:23:26,628

But that's also helpful corrected because

if we just had like the horse analogy,

656

00:23:26,628 --> 00:23:30,288

we think it was an actual physical

horse, but again, it's not right.

657

00:23:30,558 --> 00:23:32,508

Yeah, it can't be a physical horse.

658

00:23:33,018 --> 00:23:35,339

A certain size weight, body.

659

00:23:35,339 --> 00:23:36,629

Proportions or anything like that.

660

00:23:36,929 --> 00:23:40,253

That's not the essence of what

the perfect Taurus is necessarily.

661

00:23:41,003 --> 00:23:43,073

It's the idea of hoarseness as it were.

662

00:23:43,163 --> 00:23:43,493

Yeah.

663

00:23:44,243 --> 00:23:48,233

And so when you talk about the ideal or

the form of justice, then you're, you're

664

00:23:48,263 --> 00:23:50,543

understanding the forms and ideas working.

665

00:23:50,993 --> 00:23:53,033

In a little bit deeper way

than we would otherwise.

666

00:23:53,273 --> 00:23:53,693

I see.

667

00:23:54,443 --> 00:23:56,513

So that's and I think

Aristotle's going to pick up.

668

00:23:56,903 --> 00:23:58,493

On some of that with his virtues.

669

00:23:59,033 --> 00:23:59,603

Am I right?

670

00:23:59,603 --> 00:24:02,693

That, I mean, there's going to be

the idea that there is a, there's a

671

00:24:02,693 --> 00:24:04,604

right way to love people or right.

672

00:24:04,604 --> 00:24:05,804

active justice.

673

00:24:06,134 --> 00:24:07,694

That's kind of how you've you want to.

674

00:24:07,868 --> 00:24:09,128

Orient your life around those.

675

00:24:09,188 --> 00:24:09,458

Yeah.

676

00:24:09,518 --> 00:24:09,938

Is that.

677

00:24:10,598 --> 00:24:11,408

Yeah, I think so.

678

00:24:11,526 --> 00:24:12,936

I mean, Plato does that a bit too.

679

00:24:12,996 --> 00:24:13,266

Okay.

680

00:24:13,506 --> 00:24:13,746

So.

681

00:24:14,241 --> 00:24:15,831

Okay, so and okay.

682

00:24:15,941 --> 00:24:16,931

Yeah, I got all kinds of questions.

683

00:24:17,201 --> 00:24:17,711

We'll go ahead.

684

00:24:18,191 --> 00:24:19,121

So how's the time.

685

00:24:19,912 --> 00:24:21,376

does the way that Christian.

686

00:24:21,376 --> 00:24:25,246

Dualism is, does the way that Christian

dualism fits into this related to

687

00:24:25,246 --> 00:24:27,046

the fact that maybe some of these.

688

00:24:27,046 --> 00:24:28,546

Ideas or.

689

00:24:28,546 --> 00:24:30,731

Conceptions of perfect ness.

690

00:24:30,731 --> 00:24:33,041

I relate to the character of God.

691

00:24:33,832 --> 00:24:34,672

Yes.

692

00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:36,050

There's a lot of ways.

693

00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:37,580

It works itself out.

694

00:24:38,249 --> 00:24:41,249

one way, which was very, very important.

695

00:24:41,567 --> 00:24:42,447

Was that.

696

00:24:42,447 --> 00:24:45,365

Through some of the early

Christian theologians.

697

00:24:45,365 --> 00:24:47,405

And in particular Augustan.

698

00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:53,130

What happens is there from this

idea of the forms or the ideas.

699

00:24:53,820 --> 00:24:58,257

But instead of them existing in

some sort of separate realm, that's.

700

00:24:58,257 --> 00:24:59,397

Just kind of its own thing.

701

00:24:59,937 --> 00:25:01,497

They're all in the mind of God.

702

00:25:01,721 --> 00:25:07,331

So they become the form or the idea

by which God creates physical things.

703

00:25:07,931 --> 00:25:10,528

So they're going to baptize

it as a word Christianize.

704

00:25:10,558 --> 00:25:10,648

It.

705

00:25:11,308 --> 00:25:13,618

And you could argue

that works fairly well.

706

00:25:14,338 --> 00:25:15,268

Um, there are.

707

00:25:15,331 --> 00:25:19,921

know, some problems with it, I think, but

that is the move that Christian theology

708

00:25:19,921 --> 00:25:25,171

is going to is very self-consciously take

is that the forms are in the ideas of God.

709

00:25:25,171 --> 00:25:28,261

And then some people actually

associate them with angelic beans.

710

00:25:29,041 --> 00:25:30,781

Um, that's a little bit more tactical.

711

00:25:30,781 --> 00:25:31,951

We'll get to that down the road.

712

00:25:32,791 --> 00:25:36,936

So that's one of the ways that it

influences Christian theology, but

713

00:25:36,966 --> 00:25:38,676

a more fundamental way is this.

714

00:25:40,023 --> 00:25:42,453

So now you've got two

separate realms, right?

715

00:25:43,007 --> 00:25:44,231

You've got the realm.

716

00:25:44,231 --> 00:25:47,891

Of the individual horse,

the individual man or woman.

717

00:25:48,388 --> 00:25:50,308

their physical they're changing.

718

00:25:50,413 --> 00:25:51,583

They're embodied.

719

00:25:51,695 --> 00:25:52,595

There are temporal.

720

00:25:52,722 --> 00:25:53,592

They're becoming.

721

00:25:54,203 --> 00:25:57,083

And then you've got this

whole separate realm.

722

00:25:57,083 --> 00:25:59,093

Of the idea or the form.

723

00:25:59,115 --> 00:26:00,195

Of all these things.

724

00:26:00,953 --> 00:26:01,313

No.

725

00:26:01,863 --> 00:26:02,403

Question.

726

00:26:03,213 --> 00:26:04,323

Which one's more valuable.

727

00:26:05,219 --> 00:26:05,939

It was a ladder.

728

00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:06,689

Yeah.

729

00:26:07,229 --> 00:26:07,559

I mean.

730

00:26:07,619 --> 00:26:10,439

And I said, that's the, that's

the perfect version of it.

731

00:26:10,499 --> 00:26:11,009

Exactly.

732

00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:11,339

Right.

733

00:26:11,459 --> 00:26:12,989

So it's the perfect version of it.

734

00:26:13,139 --> 00:26:16,829

The physical is derivative

and contingent upon that.

735

00:26:16,859 --> 00:26:17,669

Right, right.

736

00:26:18,088 --> 00:26:19,828

And those things are all going to.

737

00:26:19,828 --> 00:26:21,508

Die and change anyway.

738

00:26:22,168 --> 00:26:23,728

So that's what I on the right.

739

00:26:23,728 --> 00:26:25,798

I put their value versus value less.

740

00:26:25,828 --> 00:26:28,468

That's not a platonic

category or terminology.

741

00:26:29,008 --> 00:26:30,058

But that's the way to me.

742

00:26:30,058 --> 00:26:30,778

It works out.

743

00:26:31,258 --> 00:26:34,438

And he would argue that

philosophy is knowing the forms.

744

00:26:34,978 --> 00:26:36,808

True wisdom is knowing the forms.

745

00:26:37,048 --> 00:26:37,468

Okay.

746

00:26:37,768 --> 00:26:40,018

Your value is an

understanding of the forums.

747

00:26:40,018 --> 00:26:43,648

And then living that out, the

individual things are not as important.

748

00:26:44,128 --> 00:26:46,438

Your body is not as

important as your soul.

749

00:26:47,023 --> 00:26:50,683

And individual things are not as

important as the spiritual realm.

750

00:26:51,553 --> 00:26:56,083

So you've got that, but even deeper than

that, you've got this whole concept then.

751

00:26:56,658 --> 00:26:58,218

That even apart from God.

752

00:26:58,608 --> 00:27:01,494

So just within this world

that he makes with this.

753

00:27:01,854 --> 00:27:03,594

Realm of reality that he makes.

754

00:27:04,314 --> 00:27:06,984

You've got a physical

and a spiritual realm.

755

00:27:07,224 --> 00:27:10,644

You've got a physical in a

nonphysical realm that are they're

756

00:27:10,644 --> 00:27:13,134

separate, they interact, but

they're fundamentally different.

757

00:27:14,034 --> 00:27:16,344

And that obviously is where you put.

758

00:27:16,495 --> 00:27:17,305

God there.

759

00:27:17,725 --> 00:27:19,075

You'd put angels there.

760

00:27:19,105 --> 00:27:20,995

Uh, many people put heaven there.

761

00:27:21,439 --> 00:27:25,249

I don't think the Bible does, but most

people I think do that in their thoughts.

762

00:27:25,399 --> 00:27:26,779

Oh, that's a contentious as it.

763

00:27:27,769 --> 00:27:32,329

But so many Christians today,

we have inherited this idea.

764

00:27:32,869 --> 00:27:36,679

That there's this physical realm, but

then there's also this spiritual realm.

765

00:27:36,948 --> 00:27:40,446

apart from this that we can't

see, but still interacts with us.

766

00:27:41,016 --> 00:27:45,006

Now that is, I think a

very fundamental thing.

767

00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:47,916

That has been maybe hinted at.

768

00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:48,494

Or.

769

00:27:48,494 --> 00:27:52,274

Agrees with the Bible, but it's

not hot in the Bible in the

770

00:27:52,274 --> 00:27:54,134

same way that Plato teaches it.

771

00:27:54,764 --> 00:27:57,824

So you might be putting your finger on

one of those areas where it's like, okay,

772

00:27:57,824 --> 00:28:01,694

this is, there's certainly some confluence

here between these two streams, but.

773

00:28:02,143 --> 00:28:04,633

Whether that's a good thing or

whether that's a pollution, we

774

00:28:04,633 --> 00:28:06,553

gotta, we gotta keep talking about.

775

00:28:06,823 --> 00:28:07,873

Yeah, we will.

776

00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:08,023

Yeah.

777

00:28:08,083 --> 00:28:12,103

Yeah, we can have people have different

opinions on that, but it's real.

778

00:28:12,853 --> 00:28:13,243

Yeah.

779

00:28:13,483 --> 00:28:16,963

And unless we understand, I think a

little bit of what's going on with Plato.

780

00:28:17,221 --> 00:28:18,871

We can't even have that discussion.

781

00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:20,876

Whether it's good or bad.

782

00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:23,172

this seems really, really key.

783

00:28:23,172 --> 00:28:26,802

And especially the idea that

what is physical and temporal

784

00:28:26,802 --> 00:28:31,032

and changing and becoming an all

that stuff might be minimized.

785

00:28:31,302 --> 00:28:34,662

Yes, because it's not in the

theory of the forms, right.

786

00:28:35,322 --> 00:28:37,964

That's also key So, well,

I guess the question.

787

00:28:38,884 --> 00:28:41,254

My question is kind of like

what's the interaction.

788

00:28:41,254 --> 00:28:43,384

Between The realm of the forms.

789

00:28:43,864 --> 00:28:46,744

Like, is there overlap, but we kind

of talked about it a little bit.

790

00:28:46,744 --> 00:28:49,144

I mean, there's well, you're getting

into the million dollar question.

791

00:28:49,354 --> 00:28:49,744

Okay.

792

00:28:49,894 --> 00:28:53,168

And this is one that

dualisms, has to answer.

793

00:28:53,168 --> 00:28:54,338

It's the big question that.

794

00:28:54,338 --> 00:28:55,868

Dualism can struggle with it.

795

00:28:55,868 --> 00:29:00,038

Hasn't been answered too, is how

one realm interacts with the other.

796

00:29:00,474 --> 00:29:06,504

How does the realm of the forms influence,

interact with, or change the world of.

797

00:29:06,579 --> 00:29:08,079

What we experience around us.

798

00:29:08,195 --> 00:29:09,395

our physical life.

799

00:29:10,052 --> 00:29:11,770

And Play-Doh gives a different answer.

800

00:29:11,770 --> 00:29:13,600

I think the Christian theology does.

801

00:29:13,861 --> 00:29:16,981

And then Aristotle is going to give a

little bit different answer as well.

802

00:29:17,719 --> 00:29:19,555

but that is a Very good question.

803

00:29:19,975 --> 00:29:20,305

Yeah.

804

00:29:20,553 --> 00:29:23,163

Are we going to piece that one out

here and now, or are we going to

805

00:29:23,163 --> 00:29:24,513

wait for a future episode of the.

806

00:29:25,361 --> 00:29:28,314

Probably in a future episode, talk about.

807

00:29:28,314 --> 00:29:29,874

his myth of creation.

808

00:29:30,046 --> 00:29:31,966

So we'll talk about that

in the next episode.

809

00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:32,686

All right.

810

00:29:32,686 --> 00:29:33,316

Sounds good.

811

00:29:33,646 --> 00:29:33,976

Okay.

812

00:29:34,187 --> 00:29:34,877

that's it for now.

813

00:29:34,907 --> 00:29:36,107

Thanks my pleasure.

814

00:29:36,167 --> 00:29:36,227

See.

815

00:29:36,227 --> 00:29:36,497

See ya.

816

00:29:36,587 --> 00:29:36,887

See ya.

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