We may be surprised to learn that our concepts of spirituality and the spirit realm (and even Heaven) are formed as much by Plato as by the Bible.

In this episode, Nathan and Daniel dive into one of Plato's most significant philosophical ideas, and the idea that has deeply influenced Christian thought: dualism. The discussion centers around understanding what dualism is, how it contrasts with monism, and also how it is similar to yet also very different from the dualism taught in the scriptures.

00:00 Introduction: No Script, Just Plato

00:37 Plato's Biggest Idea: Dualism

01:08 Understanding Dualism: Matter vs. Spirit

02:45 Pop Culture Reference: Stranger Things

03:41 Monism vs. Dualism

05:44 Pluralism?

06:52 Plato's Dualism and Christian Theology

12:57 Visualizing Plato's Dualism

15:03 Exploring the Concept of Value

15:13 Understanding the Realm of Forms

15:44 Physical vs Non-Physical Realms

16:48 Illustrating Plato's Theory with Examples

18:36 The Theory of Forms Explained

22:42 Ethics and Ideal Forms

24:19 Christian Dualism and Plato's Influence

28:38 The Interaction Between Realms

29:25 Conclusion and Future Discussions

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): That's right.

2

We have no script.

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But we're going to be talking

about Plato and today.

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We're going to be talking about.

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Plato's biggest idea, his

biggest ideas, biggest idea.

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And his name means big, right?

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Well, his name means broad.

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So this is his biggest broadest idea.

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That's brightest idea.

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I would say this idea has had more

impact on Western thought than

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any other philosophical idea, man.

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I am on the edge of my seat here.

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There's no way I could prove that.

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Of course.

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run some sort of experiment

or measure that hire some.

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That's why Pitt hire,

hire some Oxford scholars.

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And though.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So his biggest idea is what is it?

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His biggest idea is dualism dualism,

Related to that is the idea of the forms.

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Okay.

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So those are really

part of the same thing.

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But to me, dualism is a more

expansive way of talking about this.

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Okay.

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Dualism, duals.

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I feel like this is a word maybe

we've heard on the podcast.

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You probably do do.

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Do you know what a doula is?

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A myth.

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An idea.

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All right.

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Lay it on me.

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But you're the expert here.

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That's right.

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I get to make fun of you.

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Dualism is that the philosophical

concept that there's a distinction

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between the, the natural world

and the spiritual world is that.

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Yeah, that's not bad.

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Yeah, that's my bad.

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Okay, cool.

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Yeah.

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So it is the idea.

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That reality consists of two

fundamentally different realms.

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And you can label that matter

and spirit are different ways.

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We'll talk about how great it does that.

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But then when you look at this

reality that we are all in.

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It is primarily two different things,

two different realms, and each

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with its own individual properties.

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So what's true.

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One is not true.

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The other.

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Okay.

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So it's not like you and I

We're two different persons.

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But.

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We operate pretty much the same way.

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Right?

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We are males were of a certain

race, where we're both humans.

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So dualism is fundamentally different.

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So metaphysically.

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It means something like the very

nature reality has a dual nature to it.

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There is also a substance dualism, which

usually is applied to the human persona.

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The human person.

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And that is the idea

that humans are made of.

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Two different kinds of things.

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One being my under spirit.

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And one being body.

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And those are fundamentally different.

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Things that were there

combined within a human.

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that's usual, it was called

Substance dualism that we are

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made of two different substances.

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But metaphysical, duals and goes beyond

that because I don't think you would label

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one of those two areas, even a substance.

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It goes deeper than that.

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So is there is the word bipartite.

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Am I thinking about that?

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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You.

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You could call it that.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And so I, I got a pop culture.

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Illustration.

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Have you seen stranger things?

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Is that that's a whole series, right?

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It's a whole series and Netflix series.

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I think I saw one.

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And there's these kids,

I think in Indiana.

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I think it's, I think

it's based in Indiana.

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A shout out.

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To the Hoosiers.

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That's right.

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And, uh, one of them.

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Ends up getting stuck in this

realm called the upside down.

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Hmm.

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And it's underneath, but in

a dif it's a different realm.

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Okay.

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And so it's, it's kind of the same sort

of thing where it just time is different

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and communication and it can interact with

the normal world, but it is a different.

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It's a different dimension, so to speak.

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Okay.

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if you'd seen it, then maybe we could

talk to her a little bit more, but

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that's kind of what my mind goes

to where it's I can't help you out.

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No.

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That's okay.

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All right.

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So let's talk about what it's

supposed to, and then maybe that

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will make this a little bit quicker.

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All right.

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Uh, the main idea that is the

opposite of that, or that it's

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usually posed to is called Vermont is.

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And some people will

pronounce it differently.

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I look Buddhism.

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I don't know why.

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Okay.

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So modalism says everything is

of one kind or one substance.

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So.

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Ultimately everything is one

or there is one kind of thing.

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It's a little bit ambiguous

because the term can mean both.

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For many in the Eastern tradition,

it has the idea of everything.

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Is literally one thing.

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And everything that looks like it's

separate than that is an illusion.

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But you you could also be a

Mona's in a different way.

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For example, you could be a materialist

Monez where you would say the

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only thing that exists is matter.

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No matter takes all

different kinds of forums.

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It can be energy.

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It can be individual things.

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but it's all one kind of thing.

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And that's a Moen is a

materialistic modernism.

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And there are also idealistic modalism

where everything is idea in the sense of.

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Non-physical concepts.

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So George Barkley or Berkeley,

some people mispronounce it.

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He was a Bishop.

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So who is a Christian, but he believed.

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That if God is thinking things in his

mind, Then the idea about physical

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reality with a separate existence.

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Is redundancy.

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Doesn't need to be there.

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And so it's easier for him at

least to think of everything

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simply being in the mind of God.

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Things don't have their

own physical existence.

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It's all thoughts.

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Sound.

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I like that, like the matrix.

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Yeah.

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Kind of.

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Okay.

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Yeah, kind of a simulation,

but that's not a computer.

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It's the mind of God.

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Right?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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It's similar to that.

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So you can be a Mona's to that.

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Can, you can be a materialistic modernist.

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Everything is matter.

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And that's often the viewpoint

associated with naturalism.

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Or you can be in idealistic Mona's.

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Like the Eastern tradition or like

George Barkley or some others.

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So that is the opposite point of view.

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Okay.

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And there is a, of course,

another point of view.

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Uh, you might call pluralism.

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The idea that railed, it consists of

a number of different kinds of things.

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that has not quite been as popular.

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Among philosophers and thinkers for a

number of reasons, probably because.

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It leaves the relationship between

all these different things.

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Unaccounted for.

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It's a little bit more.

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MSCI, I guess.

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Hmm.

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So usually the, conflict is

between dualism and Mona's.

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So w pluralism that's interesting.

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I never even, I mean, I, I associate

that with other things, right.

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But is that a newer philosophy or is it.

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Who's it associated with.

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Well, thank you.

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Probably go back at

least to the Adam mist.

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Well, remember we talked about the Adams.

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Um, I'm sorry.

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Democrates.

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Well, they've viewed.

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Everything is matter.

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But then this matters in the form of

atoms that make individual things.

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Uh, I don't know if you'd classify

them as pluralist in this sense or not.

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Okay.

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But.

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But I think if, you just felt

like you, weren't going to take a

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stance on whether reality is one or

there was a dual layer to it, you

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probably default to that, I guess.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah, so we, so we've got, uh,

monism and we've got dualism

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and dualism is Plato's big idea.

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It is.

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Is it, is it an, Innovation because

before him, it was primarily Mona stick.

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Yeah.

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That's a good question.

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I would say.

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It is an innovation.

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Not because the people before him.

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Would call themselves

Mona's but before him.

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The idea of dualism versus

monism, wasn't really developed.

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It's when he comes on the scene

and develops this, this big.

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Dualistic system.

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Then now this whole concept of reality

being Mona's sticker, dualistic.

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Really comes to the four.

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Um, so then people can debate it.

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Yeah.

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And I'm sure people did

before in some degree.

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But the way he develops this whole system.

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So it wasn't just part of the system.

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It was the foundation of the whole thing.

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Yeah.

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Uh, not only his metaphysics, but

his epistemology theory of knowledge.

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Is ethics.

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Uh, all of this is tied

in with this dualism.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So it's really, the foundation

of everything is trying to do.

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And it is, I call it the most.

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influential idea or the big idea.

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Because it is adopted this part,

the dualism, not everything else.

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Plato taught.

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Almost wholesale and almost

universally by Christian theology.

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Hmm.

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Now not everyone.

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Like I said, Barkley.

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You couldn't call him a dualist

and there are Christians who are

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materialists, in a qualified sense.

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But for the most part, it fits in with.

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Christian theology.

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Christian theology being dualistic

in a slightly different sense though.

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So they, they, they take

this concept and they.

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Adapt it to fit.

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But the teachings of Jesus.

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Yeah.

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And the teachings of the old Testament.

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Okay.

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So that was going to be

my other question is.

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Is the old Testament.

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Hebraic thought.

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Dualistic as well.

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Does that fit pretty

neatly into this category?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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And I think the answer to that is.

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A qualified.

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Yes.

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So, as I understand.

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The philosophy of the Bible.

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There is a dualism, but it's

a little bit different kind.

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So the philosophy of Play-Doh

we'll talk about that in a second.

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But just as a summary.

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It is.

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Uh, dualism between a realm of

spiritual realities or idea realities,

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nonphysical, and this world of physical

things that we experienced did today.

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Now the dualism of the Bible.

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Is kind of like that, but it's a dual is

I'm really between the ultimate creator.

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God.

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And the creation of the physical

creation that he produces or he creates.

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So in that sense, there is a dualism

because there is an ultimate value

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and there's a, a realm that goes

beyond what we see, but it's not a

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dualism between matter and spirit

as much as it's between creator.

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And creation.

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Um, so that creator creation distinction.

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Is really fundamental biblical

thought and in good theology.

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I see, I see.

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So God exists.

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Is any different.

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As a different kind of being yes.

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In a different realm.

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That certainly can come into contact with

the natural world and does, but isn't.

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bound by the laws of physics, like we

would be or bound by human limitations.

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That kind of thing.

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Is that right?

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Yes.

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And it's, it's even more

radical than that, though.

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If we can say that God exists.

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We even have to, well, we

even have to qualify that.

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To say that something exists normally

means it's part of the furniture of the

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universe in our conceptual thinking.

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God doesn't exist that way.

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He's our part of the universe.

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He is there.

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And yet he doesn't exist in the

sense of coming into being an

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occupying a place within the

furniture of the universe as it were.

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He is the one that produces all

that does exist in that sense.

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So he's more the producer

of existence rather than one

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other being who does exist.

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So it's a very fundamental.

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A gap between the

creator and the creation.

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I think you were talking in.

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A number of episodes that go about like,

it is non contingency or something.

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Right.

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He is a necessary being,

everything else are contingent.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

300

Something like that.

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Right.

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So that's another way of putting it.

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he's just by himself.

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He needs nothing outside of himself.

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Um, we, that's not true of any of us.

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We exist.

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Only because he has wilted.

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Hmm.

309

So that's another very

fundamental distinction, right?

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He doesn't exist because we want him to

or chose, but we as this because he chose.

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And so it applies this idea of

Lordship ownership, sovereignty, right?

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it's really the most fundamental

distinction I can think of the

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most deep distinction I could.

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I can kiss actualize.

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Yeah.

316

It's the deepest.

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Idea that I'm unable to conceptualize.

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So, well, there's that too.

319

I mean, we can't really conceptualize

it because we don't experience

320

it, but now I got you, so, okay.

321

So that's like that's maybe philosophy of

Christianity or philosophy of the Bible.

322

And you said it, that fits neatly.

323

Oh, well, it fits into this idea because

it is dualistic and thinking, right.

324

So kind of want to bring us back to Plato.

325

Okay.

326

Does he, does he have that distinction

between creator and created?

327

no.

328

Not really.

329

And we'll talk about one of the

myths he gives for creation.

330

Meth not being pejorative term here, but

just to a parable to explain creation.

331

Okay.

332

Uh, but I don't know if we'll get

into that today or today or that.

333

When I say that.

334

It seems to fit well, His duals and pits.

335

Well with.

336

The thought of the Bible

and Christian theology.

337

I think let's come back to that.

338

Okay.

339

Because as I'm trying to explain this,

not the same type of the dualism.

340

But there is another way in which

it fits in well with what the

341

Bible teaches about certain things.

342

Okay, but I think we'll better

understand that if we talked about.

343

What is dualism consists

of, and then sure.

344

We'll come back to that.

345

I'll try not to put the

cart before the horse.

346

No.

347

No.

348

Okay.

349

So what does, so what does

his dualism consist of?

350

Is that a, is that a good next question?

351

Yeah, sure.

352

Let's talk about that.

353

Cool.

354

Uh, I was trying to think

about illustrate this.

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because I really want this

to be something understood.

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I think the first time I ran

into play it, I'm like, what in

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the world is he talking about?

358

And I think many people

have the experience.

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So I'm trying to simplify and visualize.

360

So I want you to think of.

361

Maybe a piece of paper, but

better a large white board.

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Like we've got one right over

here in your office, right?

363

So think of a large whiteboard.

364

And then draw a big fat thick line

horizontally from edge to edge.

365

So you've got a big marker.

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and you write that real

thick from edge to edge.

367

All right.

368

So you've just divided the board, right?

369

Yup.

370

And then on the left

side, Going up and down.

371

So make this a vertical the top left

there, you would put something like.

372

The realm of idea.

373

or forms.

374

So that's actually one concept

with two different words.

375

Sometimes we're going to talk about

ideas, that types of forms, but we

376

mean pretty much the same thing.

377

Okay.

378

It's going to mean that.

379

Below that on the left

side, you would write.

380

The realm of matter.

381

Okay.

382

Okay.

383

So you've got form.

384

Above or idea, and then you've got matter.

385

We'll come back to that.

386

Take a couple inches to the right.

387

above the line, you'd write.

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Non-physical.

389

So this is the non-physical realm below

that you're going to write physical RO.

390

Another space to the right.

391

And above the line, you can write eternal.

392

below the line.

393

Uh, temporal Nani turtle.

394

Or things that happened within the time.

395

Above the line.

396

You'd write a changing.

397

And below the line you would write.

398

Mutable.

399

If you want to be.

400

Uh, technical or changeable changing.

401

Okay above the line, you

would write to the right.

402

He was right.

403

Soul.

404

And below the line, you would write body.

405

And then.

406

Maybe on the far side, again,

going vertically this time

407

in all caps, you might write.

408

Value.

409

or valuable and then below the line.

410

Value less.

411

All right.

412

So let's explore that a little bit.

413

Can.

414

Can we pause for a second?

415

Yeah.

416

Okay.

417

Okay.

418

So we've got this white board.

419

And at the top, we've got this realm

and from the left to right, it goes.

420

Realm of the form.

421

Or ideas.

422

Uh, huh.

423

And then next to that, it's non-physical.

424

And then it's being.

425

And then it's eternal.

426

And that's unchanging.

427

And then it's soul.

428

And then it's knowledge.

429

And then it's valuable, right?

430

Yeah, actually.

431

I wrote that down, but I

forgot to include being yes.

432

Put being above the line.

433

Okay.

434

Okay.

435

Cool.

436

Go ahead and read.

437

And then Underneath.

438

So this is the realm of matter, right?

439

You've got physical as

opposed to non-physical.

440

You've got becoming.

441

As a post-it being, you've got

temporal, you've got changing.

442

You've got body, you've got opinion.

443

And you've got valueless.

444

Right.

445

It's actually might be helpful for people

to pause and write that down or rewind it.

446

And.

447

And write it down so you can kind of see,

because these are, Continuation there.

448

Right.

449

What's the word I'm looking for.

450

Uh, kind of like build

on each other, like yeah.

451

They build on each other

and they overlap isn't.

452

Yeah.

453

There's an overlapping and

kind of oppression here.

454

Progression and an interlacing.

455

Cool.

456

That's a nice word.

457

Isn't it?

458

Yeah.

459

It's like links.

460

How's that.

461

There you go.

462

All right.

463

So let's talk about these and, um, let's

talk about your wonderful wife, Abby.

464

Okay.

465

All right.

466

So I want you to my wife's name.

467

Out your mouth.

468

That's going to be dated

very quickly that references.

469

Yes.

470

Yes.

471

Well, Was that will Smith.

472

Yeah.

473

Okay.

474

We can cut that one out.

475

No, we'll leave it at.

476

Okay.

477

All right.

478

So I want you to picture

her appearance in your mind.

479

Okay.

480

You see her everyday, right?

481

So they shouldn't be hard.

482

Now.

483

I want you to, you don't have to

do this, but for the purpose of

484

illustration, I would encourage

you to go over to that whiteboard.

485

And draw a picture of that image in your

mind for a periods of her appearance.

486

On the whiteboard.

487

Could you do that?

488

Yes.

489

And no.

490

All right.

491

I mean, you could, yeah,

it might not work too well.

492

It wouldn't look like her, right.

493

What if you're a really good artist

though, it'd look more like her,

494

depending on what kind of artist I am.

495

That's true.

496

Or to take another medium as it were.

497

Imagine that you had Play-Doh

since we're talking about.

498

There it is, but you've got

Plato, the modeling clay,

499

and I encourage you to make.

500

Figure.

501

Of her face or head.

502

With the Play-Doh.

503

Um, if you're a really skilled, you could

probably pull, pull that off, right?

504

Yeah.

505

Now are any of those though, going to be.

506

As valuable and as real

as the woman herself?

507

No, no.

508

Why not.

509

Well there.

510

I mean.

511

For all kinds of reasons, but.

512

Uh, well, they lack any sort of life.

513

Okay.

514

First of all, but And the way that they

don't even get close to actually what

515

she looks like or acts like, you know?

516

Yeah.

517

There are two dimensional instead

of three-dimensional right while.

518

I wouldn't be, but.

519

Um, let's see.

520

Yeah.

521

I don't know.

522

Variety of reasons.

523

Okay.

524

Yeah.

525

And you're onto the one

I'm trying to get at.

526

Is that there is a limitation, not only

of your skill or whoever's making that,

527

but other material itself the matter.

528

Yeah.

529

So if you're making the bust of her head

the matter's going to be the Play-Doh.

530

If you're drawing it, the matter

is going to be your pencil or, The

531

marker, whatever you're going to use.

532

Sure.

533

So.

534

What Plato is arguing.

535

Is that when you see anything around

you with your physical eyes, so you

536

see a horse in a field or, or a tree.

537

What you're actually looking at

is something like if you made a

538

Play-Doh copy of your wives face.

539

Or drew it on a board.

540

Hmm, you're seeing a copy.

541

A physical copy of something.

542

That is much more real.

543

Beautiful and wonderful than that thing.

544

You're looking at.

545

What holds that thing back?

546

Is that, that, that

it's made out of matter.

547

Um, just like that Plato doesn't give

you the ability to create a life.

548

That's an interesting thought, right?

549

So that is his theory of the Forbes

is that there is within your mind.

550

You've got a form of what she looks like.

551

Right.

552

You've got an image.

553

An idea.

554

That's a mental thing.

555

And as far as an idea, at least

could be It's fleshed out.

556

It's.

557

it was looks just like her.

558

But you're not able to replicate that

in physical things because of the very

559

limitations of the physical things.

560

Hmm.

561

What he's arguing is

that's true of all reality.

562

The physical things we see here.

563

Are connected to some idea or form.

564

That really exists in an intellectual

realm or a non-physical realm.

565

And yet the things here, because

they're made out of matter, don't

566

represent those things as well

as they, as they ever could.

567

So that's just theory of

forms that everything.

568

Everything here that we

can touch and experience.

569

Has some sort of nonphysical perfect

form or idea that has been combined with

570

matter to create the thing that you see.

571

Hmm.

572

Okay.

573

Yeah.

574

And that's basically the

idea of form, so everything.

575

So the pen or the marker

or the book, it's a lesser.

576

Representation of some perfect

form of that in another realm.

577

Yeah, kind.

578

That that's the kind of idea, right?

579

maybe the easiest way to conceptualize

it is to think of a perfect horse.

580

And then thinking about

natural, physical horse.

581

Because that physical horse.

582

Is going to be.

583

less than that ideal in certain ways.

584

And certainly it's going to

be born, so it's going to be

585

weak and that's going to die.

586

The the real ideal horse doesn't do that.

587

That's eternal.

588

That's unchanging.

589

it's not going to Metro up to any of

that because it's a physical thing.

590

It's very nature of physicality limits.

591

It keeps it From the ideal, that form.

592

Okay, this is, yeah.

593

So that makes sense of your.

594

Your initial white board diagram.

595

So.

596

I understand the horse that exists in the

idea around where the form round versus

597

the horse that exists in the matter realm.

598

But the form is non-physical.

599

The matter is physical.

600

The horse in the realm of the.

601

Forms is being it's perfect.

602

Exactly.

603

Being at not becoming, it's not

becoming meaning growing into

604

something or becoming something else.

605

but the horse, the physical horses.

606

Physical horses, the physical horses.

607

temporal versus the

non-physical ones eternal.

608

Changing versus unchanging.

609

Yeah, that makes sense.

610

I'm looking at some of those other ones,

soul versus body, your knowledge versus

611

opinion or value versus value less.

612

That's kind of, yeah, let's talk.

613

The soul versus body, that's going

to be more distinctly about human.

614

So we'll come back to that one.

615

But opinion versus knowledge.

616

So again, I talked about how you

tied his epistemological theory

617

of knowledge into all this.

618

You can only really have

knowledge of the form.

619

Because knowledge implies a degree

of certainty and understanding.

620

That cannot be attached

to physical things here.

621

And that's built because they're

changing, but also because the

622

limitations of human senses.

623

Hmm.

624

So you cannot have.

625

True full knowledge in

Plato sense of the term.

626

of the physical things

only have the forums.

627

You can have opinion about those things.

628

Is, does the opinion.

629

And value.

630

Do those also get into like, The idea

of ethics where like you and I could.

631

Debate whether this horse or

this horse is better based on

632

how well they correspond to that.

633

Horse in there.

634

Realm of the forms.

635

Well, it does get an

ethics, not quite that way.

636

Okay.

637

Um, so his ethics are going

to be tied into this idea.

638

Because what he's going to argue.

639

And this is a little bit more

difficult to conceptualize.

640

So the horse illustration.

641

Is the easiest one, but he's going

to argue that there are also ideal.

642

forms of justice.

643

And goodness.

644

And beauty.

645

And love.

646

And all these things that we should value.

647

So part of the ethics

were really the main part.

648

Is learning what those are

and then practicing that.

649

That's interesting.

650

Yeah, it is.

651

But it's more difficult to conceptualize.

652

What does the ideal form?

653

Of.

654

justice look like.

655

But that's also helpful corrected because

if we just had like the horse analogy,

656

we think it was an actual physical

horse, but again, it's not right.

657

Yeah, it can't be a physical horse.

658

A certain size weight, body.

659

Proportions or anything like that.

660

That's not the essence of what

the perfect Taurus is necessarily.

661

It's the idea of hoarseness as it were.

662

Yeah.

663

And so when you talk about the ideal or

the form of justice, then you're, you're

664

understanding the forms and ideas working.

665

In a little bit deeper way

than we would otherwise.

666

I see.

667

So that's and I think

Aristotle's going to pick up.

668

On some of that with his virtues.

669

Am I right?

670

That, I mean, there's going to be

the idea that there is a, there's a

671

right way to love people or right.

672

active justice.

673

That's kind of how you've you want to.

674

Orient your life around those.

675

Yeah.

676

Is that.

677

Yeah, I think so.

678

I mean, Plato does that a bit too.

679

Okay.

680

So.

681

Okay, so and okay.

682

Yeah, I got all kinds of questions.

683

We'll go ahead.

684

So how's the time.

685

does the way that Christian.

686

Dualism is, does the way that Christian

dualism fits into this related to

687

the fact that maybe some of these.

688

Ideas or.

689

Conceptions of perfect ness.

690

I relate to the character of God.

691

Yes.

692

There's a lot of ways.

693

It works itself out.

694

one way, which was very, very important.

695

Was that.

696

Through some of the early

Christian theologians.

697

And in particular Augustan.

698

What happens is there from this

idea of the forms or the ideas.

699

But instead of them existing in

some sort of separate realm, that's.

700

Just kind of its own thing.

701

They're all in the mind of God.

702

So they become the form or the idea

by which God creates physical things.

703

So they're going to baptize

it as a word Christianize.

704

It.

705

And you could argue

that works fairly well.

706

Um, there are.

707

know, some problems with it, I think, but

that is the move that Christian theology

708

is going to is very self-consciously take

is that the forms are in the ideas of God.

709

And then some people actually

associate them with angelic beans.

710

Um, that's a little bit more tactical.

711

We'll get to that down the road.

712

So that's one of the ways that it

influences Christian theology, but

713

a more fundamental way is this.

714

So now you've got two

separate realms, right?

715

You've got the realm.

716

Of the individual horse,

the individual man or woman.

717

their physical they're changing.

718

They're embodied.

719

There are temporal.

720

They're becoming.

721

And then you've got this

whole separate realm.

722

Of the idea or the form.

723

Of all these things.

724

No.

725

Question.

726

Which one's more valuable.

727

It was a ladder.

728

Yeah.

729

I mean.

730

And I said, that's the, that's

the perfect version of it.

731

Exactly.

732

Right.

733

So it's the perfect version of it.

734

The physical is derivative

and contingent upon that.

735

Right, right.

736

And those things are all going to.

737

Die and change anyway.

738

So that's what I on the right.

739

I put their value versus value less.

740

That's not a platonic

category or terminology.

741

But that's the way to me.

742

It works out.

743

And he would argue that

philosophy is knowing the forms.

744

True wisdom is knowing the forms.

745

Okay.

746

Your value is an

understanding of the forums.

747

And then living that out, the

individual things are not as important.

748

Your body is not as

important as your soul.

749

And individual things are not as

important as the spiritual realm.

750

So you've got that, but even deeper than

that, you've got this whole concept then.

751

That even apart from God.

752

So just within this world

that he makes with this.

753

Realm of reality that he makes.

754

You've got a physical

and a spiritual realm.

755

You've got a physical in a

nonphysical realm that are they're

756

separate, they interact, but

they're fundamentally different.

757

And that obviously is where you put.

758

God there.

759

You'd put angels there.

760

Uh, many people put heaven there.

761

I don't think the Bible does, but most

people I think do that in their thoughts.

762

Oh, that's a contentious as it.

763

But so many Christians today,

we have inherited this idea.

764

That there's this physical realm, but

then there's also this spiritual realm.

765

apart from this that we can't

see, but still interacts with us.

766

Now that is, I think a

very fundamental thing.

767

That has been maybe hinted at.

768

Or.

769

Agrees with the Bible, but it's

not hot in the Bible in the

770

same way that Plato teaches it.

771

So you might be putting your finger on

one of those areas where it's like, okay,

772

this is, there's certainly some confluence

here between these two streams, but.

773

Whether that's a good thing or

whether that's a pollution, we

774

gotta, we gotta keep talking about.

775

Yeah, we will.

776

Yeah.

777

Yeah, we can have people have different

opinions on that, but it's real.

778

Yeah.

779

And unless we understand, I think a

little bit of what's going on with Plato.

780

We can't even have that discussion.

781

Whether it's good or bad.

782

this seems really, really key.

783

And especially the idea that

what is physical and temporal

784

and changing and becoming an all

that stuff might be minimized.

785

Yes, because it's not in the

theory of the forms, right.

786

That's also key So, well,

I guess the question.

787

My question is kind of like

what's the interaction.

788

Between The realm of the forms.

789

Like, is there overlap, but we kind

of talked about it a little bit.

790

I mean, there's well, you're getting

into the million dollar question.

791

Okay.

792

And this is one that

dualisms, has to answer.

793

It's the big question that.

794

Dualism can struggle with it.

795

Hasn't been answered too, is how

one realm interacts with the other.

796

How does the realm of the forms influence,

interact with, or change the world of.

797

What we experience around us.

798

our physical life.

799

And Play-Doh gives a different answer.

800

I think the Christian theology does.

801

And then Aristotle is going to give a

little bit different answer as well.

802

but that is a Very good question.

803

Yeah.

804

Are we going to piece that one out

here and now, or are we going to

805

wait for a future episode of the.

806

Probably in a future episode, talk about.

807

his myth of creation.

808

So we'll talk about that

in the next episode.

809

All right.

810

Sounds good.

811

Okay.

812

that's it for now.

813

Thanks my pleasure.

814

See.

815

See ya.

816

See ya.