In this episode, we discuss Yuga Labs securing a $4 billion valuation after a $450 million raise, Zaha Hadid Architects developing a utopian digital world, the risks that come with companies entering the metaverse, FTX supporting Web3 Gaming and launching NFTs, Gamefam raising $25 million to build games in Roblox, and so much more!

Episode 18 Keywords: Yuga Labs, Zaha Hadid Architects, utopian digital world, metaverse risks, FTX, Web3 Gaming, NFT, Gamefam, Roblox

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The Metaverse and web three are bringing about the

biggest revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the

juice Cohen. We will be bringing you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into what it

all means. The meta business podcast starts now. From the boardroom

to the metaverse. This is the meta business podcast. I am Paul the Prophet Dawalibi.

I'm joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For those of you who are new

here, welcome to the official podcast in the metaverse. What we do is we cover the most

pressing, Metaverse, topics and news of the week, we look at all of it through a business and C

suite lens, we dissect, we analyze the business implications of everything happening in this very

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the word, let them know how much you're enjoying the meta business podcast. Jeff, how you doing

this week?

Good, good. Ah, busy week. As always, I feel like I haven't talked to as much as maybe

maybe normal. But you know, the show show must go on here. This was where you are in the world. You

know, the show must go on.

It has been an interesting week, I will say, you know, I get this feeling like every

episode we're peaking right like we're hitting new peaks. I will say the last week's episode I

thought was our best. If you haven't listened to that. If you haven't tuned into that one, go check

it out. It would be episode 17. I really enjoyed it. And I think we should start Jeff with a bit of

a. I don't know like I don't want to like a little bit of a throwback to last week's episode because

we talked about yoga labs, and the board a yacht club, obviously in that episode buying crypto

punks. But this week, we had I think an equally big and important story coming out of board a

board a yacht club. That's a mouthful to say fast. And I'll bring up this first story here. board a

yacht club creator raises 450 million to build an NFT metaverse. So we had discussed that their

pitch deck had leaked last week, right? And people were sort of dissecting it. And it was

interesting. But now we get all the details. So they've raised 450 million, obviously that we know

they're buying crypto pugs, and it values yoga labs at $4 billion. I don't want to spend a lot of

time on this. It's a good update to sort of the story from last week and to encourage you guys to

go listen to last week's episode. But any thoughts on valuation here? sighs the raise?

We covered a lot of that last week where on the surface, it sounds like a lot, but we

think we were both pretty impressed with, you know, some of the numbers that were in that deck.

So you know, neither of us thought the 4 billion was that outrageous? Obviously good on them now

kind of getting that the tape? The No. The other thing that was interesting, I think they did a

drop, right, like a token drop a reviewer. You're seeing that this ad token?

Yes. Yes. But only two owners? I think. Yeah, the priority was to owners of

Yeah, so basically, the way I understand it, right is if you owned an eight, you

basically got dropped these tokens, which adds a significant amount of value. So pretty cool, you

know, that the the early members of the community were rewarded for that, you know, buying in early

and got big allocations of those tokens. Look, I

I've been privy to the deck. I went through it. And it's you know, there's definitely

impressive things in there. Or they did, they did 137 million in revenue last year selling JPEGs

like let's can can we call a spade a spade, right, like selling art, which is phenomenal, right at at

huge kind of margins. So it's hard to it's hard to knock the $4 billion valuation. It's hard to poke

holes in this. I think the one area where I worry about this is they a big part of their deck is

this Metaverse project right to this game. They're building an MMO RPG like World of Warcraft style,

obviously not in that universe. But it's a game right and a lot of this valuation I feel like in a

lot of the future of this business hinges on this game being a success. And what scares me and this

is my this is not a yoga lab specific comment. This is a industry wide general comment. Everyone

sort of makes the assumption that building a huge really successful game is just sort of easy,

right? Like, we just have to say we're making a game. And the game will be fun and successful. As

if that's not like, incredibly, incredibly hard. And, you know, like most other forms of

entertainment, right? For every one game that's for every fortnight or Wow, or any of these huge

successes, there's 1000 games that are made that no one ever plays. I worry that so much of this

valuation, and so much of this company's future really is hinging on the success of this game.

Well, it's an interesting point. I mean, that's something I was actually going to ask

you. And maybe you sort of already preempted that with the answer. But do you think the investors

investing in this are looking at UGA as gaming company, a media company, an IP sort of just

brand, or I guess, a tech company? Like what's the core advantage that they have?

I can tell you, their deck really opens with none of those words, it opens with,

we're all about culture, right? So it's a culture company. It's a meaning like, it's changing

culture, it's changing society. And, you know, like the, they're tapping into sort of this, this

cultural shift. And, you know, there's a lot of like that, at the heart of it, I think, reading

between the lines, because they never actually explicitly say it. Almost this this company's

future really is as a gaming company, right? It just so happened, it will just so happen to have

this foundation of NF T's and blockchain and those kinds of things. But I think all of their success

that really hinges on this game so hard to not call them a gaming company. Now, are they that

today? Obviously not right, today? It's more I don't know what you would call it today. To be

honest, it's the it's closer to an art gallery than a than any other business. Really. Yeah. So

we'll see. I don't know, I'm not I have seen nothing about the game, right, obviously, hard to

make judgment, but I suspect they're gonna find it's harder, especially the category of game. You

know, we host the business of esports podcast also, which we spend all our time talking about

gaming. MMO RPG is like the universe is littered with MMO RPG failures. Even New World right didn't

work and that had Amazon behind it and a ton of hype early on. That is a really, really

phenomenally difficult genre to go after. But if they succeed, for billions gonna seem like a, like

a, like small like peanuts, right? Like, the sky's the limit if they do succeed, so I get I get the

bet. All right, let's, um, let's move on. Let's talk about and this has come up. I think we've had

some interesting conversations around this. It's good that you put this story in here to touch on

the headline here inside plan for utopian Metaverse city that will have almost no rules or

police. So an architecture firm has plans to design a Metaverse centering around self

governance. Zaha Hadid architects, one of the world's most prominent architecture firms, has

shared plans to develop a utopian digital world, according to a new report by CNN. Several

illustrations of the futuristic and urban Metaverse, which by the way, if you're watching

this, you can see them on screen if you're listening I'm sorry. Designated liber land I think

that's the pronounce it. We're also shared by Zaha Hadid architects, curved buildings a city hall

collaborative working spaces, shops and business incubators can be found throughout the virtual

platform. Perhaps most notably, it says that architecture firms digital community will focus on

self governing ideals based on Liberland. A micro nation founded in 2015, by Czech politician vit

Jedlicka. It says if you start off with a clean environment and you don't throw garbage around

that can be maintained without much policing. Zaha Hadid architects, principal architect Patrick

Schumacher told CNN so, you know, we you and I have had this discussion. Should should the

metaverse be sort of like international international waters. Anything Goes right. And it

feels like that's the direction this is taking. I think there's also an other interesting

conversation here around architecture firms getting involved in the design of Metaverse or

at that, I mean, they're true, incredibly well known.

I'm so curious to get your thoughts on both of those.

Well, the first one is, or the second one is I guess we kind of hit that one verse a

little bit. Yeah, it's interesting, right? I think, you know, it's probably to be expected.

We've always said, you know, ever every business is eventually going to have to shift or have some

focus into the metaverse. So it may it makes all the sense in the world that a firm like da deed,

who their buildings in real life are pretty impressive. architectural feats like they're each

always like very unique and like they're not just like cookie cutter buildings. I know there's a

bunch of them in New York City, our city we both live. So yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty cool to

bring bring kind of that real world architectural experience to the metaverse to build some of these

cool, unique structures there. I'm not sure I understand the thread between what you know that

for bringing this whole libertarian, no police ideal, which is interesting. I mean, I don't know

from a legal perspective, how that will work is obviously it's one thing to say, hey, there will

be no laws in the metaverse and I guess the question is like, when we talk about policing, is

it like, Hey, you do something in the metaverse like, let's say I go and kill someone in the

medical digital avatar like, yep, technically, that's not illegal. When you kill someone in Grand

Theft Auto you don't the police don't come to your house and like, kill him and put you in jail.

Having said that, you know, then there are the questions of Okay, what if I steal your money?

Right? What if it's real money, you know, money that's in the metaverse, but it can obviously has

a Fiat, you know, element where you can transfer to fiat. If I steal your money in the metaverse.

Should there be a Metaverse police? Should there be this wild west where there's no laws? Or is you

know, law enforcement gonna come and say, Hey, you stole $100,000 from from the prophet like, now

you're going to jail? Like, I don't know where I fall on that. I'm curious. Start where you fall.

i You said something I want to just key in before I answer that, which I think I

hadn't thought of. But when you said it, I was like, Yeah, you're right. Like, what's the

connection here between the architecture firm? And this idea of like a totally lawless metaverse.

Seems weird. And then it got me thinking like, why do we need traditional architecture firms in the

metaverse anyways? Right? Like, one of the things architects do is they work with engineers, they'll

they'll come up with a design a shape, right, but they want to make sure that the building will stay

standing, right? If you make a huge dome like that it's supported properly, right? It's all these

kinds of building considerations, none of which apply in the metaverse, right, like almost none of

the skill set other than the creativity involved with architecture. Literally, nothing applies in

the metaphor. So I would argue we don't really need real world architects operating in the

metaphors, if anything, the experience of a real world architect may limit what we do in the

metaverse because you're sort of you're rooted in these ideas of physical, you know, metal and

concrete and glass. So I thought that part was weird. But then I agree. It was also weird that

like, why why? Why are they saying it has to be lawless? Like, what is? What are the art? What

does the architect care about? How this Metaverse is policed? My my stance on this, I think

continues to be it has to be, it has to be a completely open space. Now. You're right to bring

up this idea of theft, right. But that, to me is no different than if you play a game, right? If I

play WoW, let's say, and there's a bug that crashes my computer. I go to the developer of wow.

And I say, hey, this bugs crashing my computer give me customer support, right? It's not a I

don't. I don't like I'm not looking for the police to rectify the issue. And you're right, stealing

real, like, in game currency that maybe has a like, if someone trades me something in Wow. And I

pay way more for it, because he tricks me than what it's worth, like, should I should he go to

jail for that crime? It feels it feels weird to connect virtual worlds in real worlds, from a

criminal sense. But I do think there has to be some kind of recourse to solve problems like that

with the developers and owners call it of these meta verses. I don't think it should just be well,

you know, sorry. Like, screw you. You lost your money. There has to be some recourse but I don't

think it should involve any kind of policing and definitely not real world police.

Yeah, I guess I guess it depends what what lines you're crossing, you know, I can stick

up scenarios that, you know, where issues occur in the real world based on interactions in the the

metaverse. You know, obviously, that that that becomes different. But you know, the examples you

said, Yeah, I don't think we're going to see a world where you're going to be bringing in like

the SEC to enforce, you know, transactions that occur in the metaverse. Having said that I am sure

that as more and more of commerce and just the economy moves into the digital world. You're going

to have these agencies and maybe there'll be some sort of Metaverse, enforcement agent See, you

know, the different countries will have. And you know, based on where the player is or like where

the players physical body is. There will be an enforcement agency that that kind of oversees

behavior and activity in the metaverse. Right. I mean, you wouldn't have thought that for social

media. But you know, you do have that not? Well, so we don't have that for social media. No, but

you we do you know, there are rules and laws and like, hate speech and cry, like, you know, there

are things you can say on the internet

that you can get controlled by the platform's fair.

That's fair point, right.

Like, is this not like, like the point if I, if I go and say something horrible on

Twitter, right? There's no police that's gonna show up at my door. I may get canceled. I may.

Yeah. You know, like this amendment here in the US. But if you did that in a different

country, you you might actually

this is why I think there there can't be right. Like I think it's a slippery slope

of trying to figure out too many scenarios. And I think we're just better off by saying, it's open,

right? Like, if I steal your money in the metaverse, you can go and complain to whoever the

developer is, right? But if you come kill me in real life, because you're so pissed as a

consequence, like we've solved for that, right, like real police will then get involved. There was

no like, there's no requirement to police. The Metaverse in that sense. There's a real real life

crime. I could see that but I don't know, man, maybe which it's hard to sort of think through

every possible future scenario when you don't really know how it's all necessarily going to play

to preface

this next story that you're about to swap. I mean, this one done, I'll let you do your

preamble. But this one does bring up an interesting scenario that I actually had never

thought of. But when I read it, I was like, wow, that actually could happen. It makes a decent

amount of sense.

So let me introduce the story. It says here, which I think is interesting connected

to the last one obviously, does the metaverse may bring new cyber risks. Here's what companies can

do. And it says here, the metaverse has drawn, there's three bullet points. The Metaverse has

drawn hype in recent months with companies like meta and Ralph Lauren rushing to get their foot in

its virtual door. But cybercrime in the real world is already becoming more rampant. Checkpoint a

cybersecurity firm reported a 50% increase in overall attacks per week on corporate networks

last year, compared with 2020. As businesses rush to plant their flag in the metaverse, not all may

realize the full dangers of this new world. And they start with you want me to read this example

in the beginning because I think that

was worthwhile. Yeah, I

actually thought was pretty cool. So it says here starts it says, imagine discussing

a confidential multi million dollar deal with your boss, the conversation ends, and you both leave a

while later, you both meet again and you bring up your earlier conversation, but your boss has

absolutely no recollection of the deal. What just happened in the metaverse, this might mean you

were the victim of a hacked avatar or deep fake said Prabhu rom head of the industry Intelligence

Group at cyber Media Research, deep fakes, referred to manipulated digital figures that look

or sound like someone else. So it is an interesting example here. Right? It's, it's, it

comes down to identity security, right? Where, because, you know, you don't see me, you see some

digital avatar that anyone says could sort of be behind it and faking me that, you know, people

faking me in the metaverse may try and do nefarious, nefarious things. Do you see this as a

real risk, Jeff? Or is this a little overblown? And a little bit like, you know, scare tactics for

a headline?

I think it actually is not sinner. I mean, certainly, if we're talking about

enterprise, you know, enterprises moving into the metaverse, and if you you're going to have a

confidential meeting, you know, in a boardroom, like where you're discussing quarterly results or

something like that. Yeah. I mean, like, if you don't know who's there, that's, that's a huge

enterprise level security risk, right? Like, let's say, you know, and this is something that's

common, you know, you see, enterprises have to deal with this now with Zoom and different

conferencing technology. But imagine if you were talking about a confidential deal, and then the

telephone dial a number was public, and you didn't know who was online, because they're not talking,

but they happen to be dialed in, and you're, you know, either listening or or they're talking and,

you know, they're using some voice emulator. That sounds like someone on the view that you know, it

it is a risk. You know, it's the same risk we see right now with maybe social media, stuff like that

anyone can go online, create a fake profile on LinkedIn, and reach out to people and you see it a

lot and people get tricked, not knowing who they're necessarily speaking to, because it's not

that hard to create a semi credible LinkedIn profile or email address with one letter or

something like that. So it is a risk. is not an unmanageable risk. But it is it is probably

something as enterprises are thinking about coming Metaverse something they have to they have to

consider. But we agree on the blockchain technology. But yeah, it's it's definitely a thing

something that will have to happen.

I mean, wouldn't you agree though, that the metaverse in some ways, because it

increases the complexity required to fake an identity, in some ways, probably reduces the

overall number of these kinds of cyber crimes like, and I'll just give you a real example.

Right? Like, when email the internet first came out, it would have been phenomenally easy to spoof

someone's email address, right? Or make it look like an email was coming from someone else.

Because it's not it's just text on a screen. It's not that technically difficult, right? You just

change the header in the in the, you know, the the email and you can sort of fake the where the

emails coming from. Whereas like, with the metaverse, while, technology has gotten better.

Doing a great deep fake, whether it's emulating voice emulating a face, right, in real time,

requires a certain amount of computational complexity and AI and all kinds of tools, right,

like, it's doable, but I find the complexity to commit these crimes is, is increasing. It's not

decreasing.

That's fair. I think it depends what you're comparing it to. I think, you know, if

you're comparing email apps 100% agree with you. They're there. You know, obviously, this example,

the article was written with purpose, like you said, at the outset, a bias, if you will. But if

you're comparing it to, in person meeting, or sits, it's less

true. I mean, I think in person meetings, I was going to be the most secure. I

just, I find some of these articles, like when they say 50% increase in overall attacks per week,

like, was it one, and it went to one and a half, you know, like, right, like, the percentage

increase isn't really telling. And so hard, like, my gut tells me there's not a real serious risk

here. And the solutions are sort of simple, right? Like, it's not that hard to have some kind of even

like biometric on the human end on the real life end. And then a badge, you know, that's impossible

to fake because it's on the blockchain, whatever, in the metaverse that says, this, this is who I

am, right? Like, I all these problems, I think are solvable. It is interesting to think, though, that

there will be an entirely sort of new set of cybersecurity products, companies, etc, that have

to tackle them. And don't

last part is the key. I didn't take the article to read like, Oh, my God, this, the

metaverse won't work because this insurmountable problem. It's more like this firm trying to get to

be one of the thought leaders of figure out what those solutions aren't, you just identified two

pretty pretty darn good ones. But there will be a whole industry of these same we wouldn't be

internet and when computers came up, you start having cybersecurity kind of 1.0 2.0 or

3.0 if they whatever they want to stay consistent with. Let's talk about FTX FTX. In

the news this week, Jeff, and this one. The headline here FTX announces support for Web three

gaming begins in house NFT game development, Sam Venkman, fried, who's the founder and CEO of FTX

announced FTX his entry into web three gaming through the acquisition of good luck games. The

the FTX CEO revealed that the in house developers would build a white labeled package for the

exchange FTT price attempts recovery in response to the key developments in the FTX ecosystem. So

here's what I want to focus on, though, I think, unless you have some other ideas on this is the

tweets that Sam put out, which I think are extremely telling where he announced this. And

I'll just read some of them. I have them up here, but I'll read some of them. He says FTX is really

excited to support Web three gaming, but we have a very specific approach support great games. Too

many times our ecosystem has tried to build out NFT enabled games, but forgotten the first step,

which is to build a great game. And just as importantly, web three should make a game better,

not neutral or worse. If integrating crypto hurts a game, we don't want to do it. We're excited to

support a number of our gaming partners with a full web three suite. We also want to have an in

house case to develop our white label package. But the single most important thing about that in

house game is again that it's a great game. Now he goes on to talk about how they love the team and

you know some of the other reasons why they're so excited about this and that they play the game

which is doubly interesting. But look I can't help but good like the Prophet was right you know one

of those moments when put up all the graphics. Well, no, I got so much

explanation series of the problem. was right or Sam is listening to the podcast. So, of

course,

Sam was listening to the podcast, of course, he got this idea from the meta business

pi test. And but I got a lot of hate. I'm telling you a lot of hate. For the comments I made at the

PLATO earn crowd create conference thing I did, where I said, everyone's lost track of what's

important here, which is making a great game. And Sam, I consider a genius, obviously, is built,

maybe the most incredible company in the entire crypto industry. How, like, it's impossible to

disagree with this approach. Right. But it feels novel.

Well, you know, I'm Mister devil's advocate. But here I don't I mean, this has been

our mantra sort of all since we started this podcast and started talking about playing around.

And I don't think I know you said you got a lot of hate it. But I don't think it's a super hot Tech,

I think the industry is starting to recognize that some of the early iterations of these games

weren't fun. And it was always a fun games are coming. So I think that Sam is absolutely right.

Prophet was also absolutely right. I don't have too much that because I think we're fully in

agreement here. It has to start with the games and it becomes a mechanic. Nobody would ever say, hey,

I want to create an in game purchase game. Like no, no, you have a game. It's fun. And then

there's in game purchases. It's a monetization metric, not the game.

But he says a couple of things that I think you're right, I think maybe people are

coming around to the idea that good games are around the corner, which I don't know, right? They

may be. But he says something that I think most of the crypto world misses, which is he says web

three should make a game better, not neutral or worse. And I will I will extend his comment one

step further. And it's it, we have to communicate to gamers how it makes it better it can like if we

can explain how this makes it better, in some very real way for that gamer. No one's gonna care,

right? And that the masses of gamers that everyone wants to pick up in the crypto world, what none of

them will care. And so I think it's, it's a level of insight I haven't seen from anyone else yet.

And to get the CEO of a big crypto company saying if integrating crypto hurts the game, we won't do

it. Right? Like, that's an interesting take. Because he could have said, Look, if integrating

crypto makes us a ton more money, we'll do it, even if it hurts the game a little bit, right,

which is the position of just about everyone else in the industry. So I thought this was really

refreshing as a take. And it'll be interesting to see in my mind, Jeff, what they do with, you know,

with with a game development studio in house, and how they manage to build that while also trying to

push, you know, the adoption of digital assets, which is their whole mantra,

do you think this is part of a bigger strategy to bring a lot more and that's because I

know they're building the white label product. They've hired a bunch of people in gaming. So

obviously, they have a bigger strategy here. But I guess I hadn't been aware of previously that it

was going to be to bring a bunch of development teams in house. So do you think, do you think fast

forward 18 months from now we're gonna see FTX be as big of a brand in gaming as as Zynga. And

that's obviously a little bit hyperbole, but they're gonna have 10 different teams building

1520 games.

I don't know if it's the numbers 15 or 20. But I definitely would get behind and we'll

probably put money on betting that we see at least another two kind of bets, whether it's an

investment or an acquisition. When you're at the scale of an FTX, right, like you can't go timid or

go like small scale. I think the the interesting part of this play is there's clear conviction

around gaming and how it it integrates with their core crypto business. I wouldn't be surprised if

FTX over time, you know, puts a billion dollars more into gaming. That would not shock me. And I

think that it's also just smart. And it's gonna increase the competition for game developers,

which is an already like, super heated market, which I think is interesting. When you start a

game development studio like a year or two. I just I want to end on on one last very quick story

here, which we'll spend two seconds on. And it's another game developer, which I think is

interesting game fam raises 25 million to build games for Roblox and I have just one quick

question for you here. Obviously, we're big fans of Roblox from a Metaverse perspective I think

they're ahead of the curve of stripe anyone else. But is that a lot of money when you're building

for only one platform, Jeff like is that how Big as the risk when you're so tied to the success of

just one platform who future is bright, but it's definitely not certain.

It is a risk. I mean, it's a risk in a couple of different ways. I mean, one, the the rev

share on Roblox is actually super low relative. So actually, it's funny people, all the developers

complain about the 30% rev share on on Apple and Google, it's actually robots take 70% of revenue.

So it's, which is, you know, kind of mind blowing, if you think about where's Tim Sweeney? Yeah, that

they're able to get away with that. I guess it's because most of the developers on there are UGC

and small creators. So they probably don't even necessarily realize and certainly can't, and

bargain that I imagine that number will start to shift, because Roblox is incentivized to bring

more creators on, they've talked about that. So I would maybe that number shifts over time, but big

rev share, take. It's also still limited in terms of geography and age, right. So you're developing

for a very limited demographic and Mindo robots, massive steps towards trying to expand both those

things. But it's still been a challenge to them. So you're kind of limited there. And then the last

thing, and probably the most important as we're thinking about sort of the professionalization of

UGC platforms, which I think is actually a pretty cool trend. And I'm a big fan of the guys that

game fam. And actually, we know some of their investors conference, he was the lead investor,

which we're big fans of them. But discoverability is a big issue for these platforms. There's no

real way to advertise very well and do publishing on the platform. So I'm sure you know, that's

something they're they're doing in other places, but there's no great app store optimization or

advertising there is with Apple, and Google for robots.

Yeah, I think this is great for game fam. I think it's exciting. When you get a

big raise like this in the industry in general. I think the investors here are not going to make a

good return. And I probably not anywhere near what they think they're going to make just because like

the numbers are what they are. $25 million raise means the business at least worth 100 million. If

you're a VC fund, you need to have at least a billion dollar exit. Right? That's what you need

to believe you can get to I just don't see how you build a billion dollar game development studio

just on Roblox today. Now,

that's a great question that be radically different for it because that is a good

question. Like how big does Roblox have to get? Because I could I guarantee you there were

probably people saying that about mobile, you know, 10 years ago, and mobile there's only this

many gamers, there's only this many call like, and I don't know what the adoption curve needs to look

like and what the math and the model kind of shows. But I suspect there will be a billion

dollar company built that builds you know, is be sort of the Zynga for robots. Like I bet there

will will be game fam I have no idea but we are bullish on Roblox. I know that so you probably

should believe

I'm very bullish on Roblox, but I don't think I don't think other people can just

hitch it's like, it's like saying why haven't we seen even take an even bigger example? In more

traditional media? Right? Have we seen a billion dollar media company built just on YouTube? No,

no, there's media companies that are that big that put their stuff on YouTube, but among other

places, right. And there are there are influencers and creators on YouTube, who are make good living,

right, maybe even great living or maybe 50 100 million dollar businesses, but multibillion dollar

scale where you're you're sort of locked into just one platform. And YouTube's what 10x The size of a

Roblox right now. Right? Like it, it feels like a large hurdle. And I worry that maybe the investors

didn't think that one through I don't know it. It's a lot of sexiness. Right. And Roblox growth

has been tremendously good. And maybe it's just a 10 year play, right? Like, Jeff, I think you could

probably convince me if you're saying, yeah, in 10 years when Roblox is that half a billion users?

Could we see that? You're right, like maybe someone was saying this 10 years ago about mobile,

so I couldn't buy maybe the longer term story. I don't know if I buy sort of the, hey, the venture

fund that's in here needs an exit within two or three years that I'm a little more concerned if

we're if we're shortening sort of the time, the time period. Man that time flew by Jeff, that

brings us to the end of this week's podcast. I just want to remind everyone, go leave a five star

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All the topics we cover on this show, Jeff, thank you as always, to our audience. Thank you guys for

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