On this episode, Shannon, Lisa, and guest Karen Roberts Grissom engage in a candid discussion about cultural appropriation and appreciation. They discuss celebrities like Kim Kardashian and Katy Perry, African American Vernacular English (AAVE) or Ebonics being used as a trend, and misappropriation in the fashion world. The episode encourages listeners to reflect on the boundaries between appreciation and appropriation while shedding light on the need for respectful cultural exchange.

Cultural Appropriation v. Appreciation

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• BBC Documentary
• Harmful Effects of Cultural Appropriation
• What Defines Cultural Appropriation?
• Appropriation and Appreciation: What's the Difference? | Office of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion
• What Is Cultural Appropriation? | Britannica

Copyright 2022-2024 Black Panache, LLC

[00:00:10] Lisa: They was trying to do appreciation. They were trying to do appreciation, Karen. They were trying to do appreciation. That hear me out. They were saying

[00:00:38] Lisa: We're gonna kneel

[00:00:41] Lisa: the black

people I'm not

[00:00:49] Lisa: not about to kneel If y'all don't get up off my rusty knees I'm Shannon, and I'm Lisa, and

[00:00:55] Lisa: to Blacktivities, a celebration of all things Black.

[00:01:01] Lisa: perspectives, and Black panache. Celebrating our

[00:01:06] Lisa: Everybody's invited, but you gotta come in and have a seat. So let the Blacktivities

[00:01:12] Lisa: Hello

everyone! Welcome back, my Blacktivity family! Thanks We should do a round of applause. Alright, so Mona Lisa here with Shannon the Great and we have a lovely special guest with us, okay? Miss Karen, you want to say hello to everyone?

[00:01:50] Lisa: Yes. Let's get it. So today we're going to touch on culture, appreciation versus appropriation. [00:02:00] Kim K boxer braids. I just want to throw that out there one time. We

She's worked in social justice for the past 20 years to give a voice to marginalized and disenfranchised communities through her creation, development, and participation in programs and events designed to bring awareness. And seek solutions to strategically deconstruct generational and systemic injustice through action oriented, solution focused efforts rooted in equity, diversity, and inclusion.

We're so excited to have you, Karen.

[00:03:17] Karen: This is the work that I love. Yeah. So thank you for that.

Our experiences and our perspectives, we should be telling our stories and that's exactly what we're trying to do here with Blacktivities. So, one way you can help us grow is to share an episode. Share your favorite [00:04:00] episode. Share this episode with somebody that you think would love it so that our voices are being

Share it with somebody you think that they might not like it. Yeah, they might learn something. We've, we've, we've seen here in the past, there's people that didn't like it. They still, they kept coming back to let it be known that they didn't like it.

I don't understand it, but hey. I don't know what to say. I've been told a

[00:04:39] Lisa: and whatnot. Yes. Um, we were told that we need to find something better else to do with our time. But

I'm on social media and I was just browsing and I came across a post in a local mom's group. And it was a white lady who had asked [00:05:00] about getting her son's hair braided. It seems like she was talking about cornrows, but she didn't really specify like what kind of braids, but she didn't really want to offend anybody.

So she was asking like, was this offensive to the black community to let him get his hair braided? Basically, it seemed like she didn't want to appropriate. So, of course, I do what I always do, and I look at the comments, and I see who's responding and what they're saying. Can you guess who most of the responses came from?

Probably not us. Not us.

[00:05:37] Shannon: they say? So it was a lot of black people didn't invent braids. Um, you know, they don't have ownership of braids. You can do whatever you want to do. But GMK

[00:05:51] Shannon: go ahead. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So it was interesting.

It happens with other cultures too. Any comments before we start Saks

Now, I used to say black folks ain't nobody had that long, but I have a couple of people in my family who hair is to their butt. So still, though, we ethnicities as well. I used to think growing up that having the little chopsticks in my hair with a hairstyle, that was cute. You know what I'm saying? Yes, my [00:07:00] black ass wanted to have those chopstick things in my hair.

And I didn't get on that and ask anybody for anything about appropriation. So I don't know. I have to applaud her on that.

[00:07:15] Lisa: Okay.

I found a simpler definition in an article on Britannica. [00:08:00] com that said cultural appropriation takes place when members of a majority group adopt cultural elements of a minority group in an exploitative, disrespectful, or stereotypical way. The Britannica article was interesting because it kind of broke down specific ways that people can appropriate other cultures and gave examples.

Uh, you can check that out if you want. I linked it in the show notes as I do all my sources. Y'all folks on social media need to put some respect on my name. I am a 15 year educator and I'm not pulling facts out of my behind. I research everything and I know what a reliable source is because

So you don't

So they gave an example of Madonna and Vogue. Voguing was like a dance style that gay people did, but they got no benefit from that. She got all the benefit. She benefited financially and socially. Another way, a member of a majority group oversimplifying the culture of a minority group or treating the culture of a minority group as a joke.

So like war bonnets was the example that they gave. They were popular. To wear at music festivals and Native Americans originally wore them on special occasions as almost like medals So they kind of took it away from its cultural element in the original meaning And then the last way that they mentioned was a member of a majority group adopting an element of a minority culture without consequences while members of the minority group faced backlash The same cultural element.

So they suggested some ways to appreciate that included, and I'm quoting here, One, examine your own culture and beliefs. Knowing your own culture is one of the best ways to understand and appreciate other cultures. The second thing they said you can do is recognize and embrace cultural differences.

So the last thing I want to leave you guys with is a quote that I liked from a 2018 BBC Stories documentary called Cultural Appropriation, Whose Problem Is It? And it kind of hit different because of what we go through when it comes to things of our culture. So I wanted to share it. They interviewed a lady named Aisha who said, When you are part of a society that has told you how you look is wrong, for someone in that society to then say, Well, I'm gonna do it because it's fashionable, and it's a music festival, so who cares?

[00:13:00] Lisa: Okay, so I'm shading myself here because of me sharing the fact that when I was younger I thought it would be cool to have that hairstyle with the chopsticks in my hair because it was trendy. Am I wrong for that though, when it comes to appropriation versus appreciation?

[00:13:17] Lisa: Well, I'm bald headed now, so it don't matter.

laughter So, it don't matter. I mean, I never got the opportunity to do it, but not to make an excuse, but I understand. I understand. Thank you for those SAC's facts. Those really hit. What do you think,

[00:13:35] Karen: that took me back to the, uh, Kim K. Braid's It's her box braids that Lisa mentioned. And really, you know, the biggest appropriators, they're huge appropriators as are, you know, Katy Perry, I think is the queen of cultural appropriation at this point.

I've not heard any other people in any other culture have to get legislation so that they can be who they organically are. It's a shame. And I love how. How you present everything right up front, because it took me right to what Lisa was saying. You can't cherry pick, [00:15:00] uh, what you think is cute. And, and if you think about it, when we talk about our bodies and our hair, we've never really had autonomy over any of that.

And so for somebody to say, well, I want those lips. I want that ass. I want this hairstyle. And really

[00:15:27] Karen: nobody cherry picking our stomach, right? They don't want that.

Never. Go ahead.

So yeah, they want to minimize it. Oh, everything is everybody's that's not true. It's not true And there is an element of cultural exchange, but it doesn't exist on all levels, you know Some stuff needs to be kept within its community for a reason and so when you think about it aave Uh, African American Vernacular English, aka Ebonics, is something that is also tapped into and utilized at will because somebody thinks it's cute.

Now I can't get a job with it, but you can do it when you think it's cute. Neck roll, popping and clicking and all of that. Add it to it when you are an instagram person and you want to emphasize a point Clicking and clacking and doing this and that and and appropriating those things But if I went into a job interview for you Or somebody, you know It wouldn't be accepted.

[00:17:02] Lisa: haphazardly. I want, just to piggyback off of you saying like, what's this song? It's cool when you do it, but a problem when I do it. So I went and got a pedicure, um, a couple of days ago. And the guy, this is a guy, I had never met him. He was new to the shop.

We sat down, and you know, he was talking to me regularly, and he still had his accent, a thick accent, and um, talking to him, I found out that his family's originally, they, from Vietnam, I think is what he said. Well, anywho, after talking to him, I start noticing some of the words that he was saying, like, when I show him a nail design, he said, oh yeah, that's fine.

What if I mimicked an accent? Then I would have been a problem. So, after a while, like, normally I don't let things bother me, but after a while it kept going on and kept going. I was just like, boy, I just, just go ahead and just finish. Like, come on. Because it, after a while, it started, it was too much. It was too much.

Some of the things he was saying, the, the, the way that he was, you know, it, it was too much. And I started feeling uncomfortable because it was more or less a, what if I did that to you? How would you feel? Right? Right.

You know, those are, those are, that's coded language that's used. If we do, if we are our authentic selves, then we get called different things. And I, I love that example because I went to get my nails done. This was at a new place at [00:19:00] my, my other place. I couldn't get it. And he was like, yeah, my name is Tyrone, sir.

I know good and well, your name is not Tyrone.

[00:19:22] Lisa: Right. And see yours like Tyrone, you should have went out and played on there and it's like, do you, do you know who Erykah Badu is?

You

know, just play it on. I mean, he, he opened the window, so let's go with it. Let's climb on in, sir. And he was

But it was, he was either Tyrone or [00:20:00] David. He didn't use his given name, but if he was feeling good about himself and feeling strong and. On another level, he was Tyrone. But, yeah.

go ahead. I'm talking about. If you gonna do it, be appropriate with it.

[00:20:39] Lisa: Those are funny. I don't even think about that, but that's a good point.

Mm

Flip it up, what you mean? So when you think about when the, the girl, I don't know her name because I saw it once and I was like, this is annoying. Fiona. Yes. When Fiona's beautiful, what are her features and hair like? Versus when she's not beautiful, what are her features and hair like? You see what I'm saying?

Her features are, are different. Features are all of that. All of that. And so I was like, I feel like Shrek is racist. And I would say it all the time. And people would be like, we didn't even think about it because it's a cute movie, you

I'm

[00:21:58] Lisa: for you. I'm ruined Shrek. [00:22:00] I'm sorry. See Neon, we can't get woke on

Shrek. Hell for the breakout room.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. But that is a good point though. That's a good point. Go back and watch

[00:22:17] Lisa: Okay.

[00:22:28] Lisa: that line? Well, to go back to your original story, when we started up, that lady is doing the research.

What about you Karen?

And the reality is, I would have been like, sure, let him do it, but also it's a teaching opportunity. Teach him what it means. Show him some pictures. You know, Google is our friend. Let him look at the history of it. This is why you like it. This is, this may be why you like it. I mean, the fact of the matter is he's got a different type of hair and all that, but we are the original woman.

Cause I'm sure he going to get those questions too. Just like we do. So, uh, that's an opportunity for him to share out

[00:24:35] Shannon: Well, what you said, Karen, was exactly what a lot of the Black women who jumped in the conversation were saying.

And some of them said, you know, Even though he wants it, it might not be the best for his hair because the way y'all's hair is, it's different from ours. So,

[00:24:58] Karen: The texture, it, it may not [00:25:00] work. And, you know, there was a, uh, one example of, of something that should have been inquired about.

There's this person where I used to work and she has a, uh, program that she's implementing. And it uses the term wolf pack. And so, um, you know, it's like, yeah, we're a team. We're a wolf pack, which, you know, you don't think about it. But when we began to really have the conversation, the black women were like, we don't want that because we're always called names.

We're called beasts. We're called animals. We're called all of these different things when somebody's being racist or whatever. But we don't like it because we don't want to be called names. Well, the appropriation part came in when there was a girl who, part of her family is Native American. And she said, you know the problem with that?

They earn calling themselves. No wolf pack You know, so there, therein lies a problem because it's, it's appropriating an image from a culture that you never really looked into.

And they put their bonnet on a lot of people in the comments were saying, Oh, well, what's the [00:27:00] problem with that? A bonnet is for protection for curly hair and which I can see that, you know, I'm really big on bonnets. I'm not, I'm not a fan of people wearing bonnets in public. And with that stereotype, I feel like it is automatically assumed just because someone wears a bonnet, they automatically point to black women.

Because we're all out in the world all day long with a bonnet on.

[00:27:41] Lisa: nothing. It didn't matter. Yeah, but you know, that's the thing

There was a thing on. Um that I saw [00:28:00] you guys might have saw this Um, it said high fashion braids and I promise y'all it was just some cornrows cornrow back into like a, like a ponytail, some cornrows cornrow back and they called it high fashion braids.

So it's the media that, that portrays it to have it to where it's this fabulous new trendy thing, but it's not, it's not

[00:29:08] Lisa: With me personally, I feel like it'd be crazy.

It'd be Karen like for us to be like, Why do you have that on? Who are you? You don't belong. Like, just going about their business. Because, I mean, what can we do? Other than having your own platform to where you're talking about things like this such as Blacktivities, Blacktivities podcast follow if you have not already, but I feel like with that right there, I mean, why?

Why say something to them because they're not going to understand it or most of the time they will take offense to it Whereas you're just trying to enlighten them on it. So I just say leave it be

She was not Black and she sounded like a runaway slave [00:30:00] and

And basically her AAVE had to do with the fact that and I'm just gonna keep it 100 she had black kids and was like, um

[00:30:16] Karen: It was and I was like, okay, I don't even talk like that. And so why is that? AAVE why is that? Ebonics so heavy on you, you know what I'm saying? And, and so I looked at her one day and I said, you know what?

[00:31:01] Lisa: After that, how did she respond? She was in

So for you to just be that casual and flip it, you know, and so we she stopped coming by my desk and I was fine with that because I don't I don't need that. You're not familiar with me. And we're just not going to communicate on that level. That's for outside of work and with a certain group of people.

Code switching. Um, I think it depends on why you're code switching. I'm not going to code switch to assimilate. I will code switch because I feel like it's the best way for you to understand what I am saying and to get my point across, but it's certainly not for a point of assimilation because I refuse.

I'll

I have to. But I do it because I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be 100% honest with you guys. Some customers do, they do too much and that's, that's my polite way of saying it, but I do have some customers that are, you can tell the vibe, the energy is there to where if they do maybe let out a girl, it wouldn't bother me because I know deep down that they mean well, you know what I mean?

It's nothing to be offended for. I have friends of other ethnicities and it doesn't bother me. You know, if they are speaking a certain slang or twang because I know, I know their heart, but if I don't know you like that, let's stay on the coast, which let's be professional. Was that all the questions? Yeah.

[00:34:15] Shannon: Okay. So this black activity is appropriation or appreciation. So I came up with some, I tried to come up with some like examples that we've seen. So we'll just go through the list and you guys tell me, do you think that's appropriation or appreciation and why? Uh, so the first one I thought about was Nicki Minaj and she had a video where she dressed as a geisha girl and she's not the only one.

There've been other people that have done that too. Is that appropriation or appreciation?

It's the same thing, so we can't be hypocritical when it comes to certain things like that. I agree.

[00:35:26] Lisa: honest with y'all, I haven't really thought about that. I may need to look a little bit more into that. Don't care. Got something to say guys. Mr. Manager, don't care.

I mean, we may have some information like the, and those piercing eerie, you know, where they get bigger and bigger in the ears. That's definitely, we've seen that tribal in Africa. Yes.

[00:36:25] Shannon: it, I'm gonna be honest. I don't know the history I just know that nose piercing in like hindu or whatever has a meaning but maybe If it goes across cultures, because I don't feel like nose rings are specific to one particular culture.

[00:37:01] Lisa: Appreciation. I have to say appreciation. And the reason why I'm saying this is. I'm finna pull it out.

You know how, you know how some white people be like, my best friend is black. Okay, my best friend of 20 something years. I met her in high school is, is she's white. And she has always been there when we have cookouts, family events, she's there. Um, my, my oldest daughter, her boyfriend, he's white. And again, it's all about how you feel.

And I don't feel like there's any, anything bad or anything like that when they're there, they're, they're playing cards. They're contributing, like it's, they're contributing to that vibe, you know, and it doesn't seem awkward. Now, if something gives me an awkward feeling, then I'll say, okay, something ain't right about this.

But. That vibe is there. So with me, I say,

But if you got folks that show up, like you talk about your friend, she shows up at everything. She's practically family. That's appreciation. That's, that's love right there. That is love.

[00:38:26] Shannon: All right. So y'all remember. When, um, Congress where it can take cloths.

No. They were trying to do appreciation. They were trying to do appreciation. Hear me out. They were trying. they did.

[00:39:06] Lisa: and honor the black

[00:39:08] Lisa: We're gonna kneel! We're gonna kneel down. And let them get up off them

[00:39:22] Lisa: for, people were doing the opposite.

We said we

[00:39:45] Lisa: you know, pass quick,

We had to get bit by dogs, fire holes, all of them things. And y'all give us Juneteenth and Kente cloth. No, ma'am. That was horrible [00:40:00] and performative and we just don't want the performative stuff. We want actual legislation, you know, and so as we gain ground, there's this whole tearing down, you know, you, you gain ground in, in getting one thing passed and then, okay, so here goes.

Affirmative action. But anyway, that's a whole nother thing. But it was, it wasn't even appropriation. It was a

[00:40:33] Karen: to know. she asked that question.

It didn't work out that way. Sorry. Y'all Yeah, she couldn't hold it. She could not hold

[00:40:57] Lisa: about um, Chet Hanks, talking [00:41:00] like a Jamaican.

[00:41:04] Lisa: chronic...

I'm sure his parents are very proud of his shenanigans And Really? He's just a total loser. Have such great parents and access to so much, but you're just pretty much a loser. So, I don't, I mean...

[00:41:44] Karen: Oh, that is

you. I was telling Shannon about Chet. When I first came across him, and I was like, wait, I seen him on Shade Room a couple years ago, and I was [00:42:00] like, Chet Hanks? I was like, there is no way this is Tom Hayson. So, I went and found his Instagram, and I was just scrolling through, and I was just looking through, and I was confused because majority of his videos, he talks in that Jamaican accent.

But I was like, why is he doing this? But then I started seeing when he was talking regular, and I was like, oh, I don't know about this. But he, he's very, Nice to look at. He does have a black baby mama. So it's kind of like, he's drawing a line a little bit. I think he might have stepped on it.

What about Beyonce's Renaissance album? Now we know that, you know, a lot of her stuff was for the gay community, I guess. LGBTQ plus. Do you feel like she appropriated or was she appreciating them? She gave credit. That's how I felt about it. She gave credit. [00:43:00] I haven't been to see her show, but from the clips I've seen, it seems like she is including them in every piece of

And this is just the honest question. So with her in the renaissance thing, I don't want a beehive coming for me. This is just the question. So she, I like Beyonce. I can't say that I'm an actual beehive er, but I do know Beyonce and all this other stuff. But when it comes to her and coming up with music to where...

You guys are stating that she did give credit. What is the difference, and this is just me asking the question, what's the difference between her and then Madonna? Like, what, what's the difference with the Voguing thing? Because it was, it's still music. Now, Madonna had gay people, like, they were around and all of that.

So, I'm like, what's the, what's the difference? And

[00:44:02] Lisa: because they both got paid. Obviously Madonna got paid way more money Beyonce's getting paid way more money because it's her album and all of that I

[00:44:19] Lisa: Okay. Okay. I'm gonna look into that.

Madonna has just white privilege all over the place. And I think that may have something to do with the [00:45:00] difference because power is at the core. And at the end of the day, Madonna... Is one of the most powerful people. She's a living legend as is Beyonce. But when you think about the, the core of everything, Madonna's always going to thrive.

So I think. You know, me as a person who's a minority accessing and reaching out to another minority may be seen different and I'm saying may because I don't know what the website pointed to, but I say it may be seen different for that reason. That's a good point. She's part of a marginalized community is what I'm trying to say.

Whereas Madonna is not.

[00:46:35] Karen: Yep. Privilege

Like really doing her part for this community that she's given credit to other than just having an album like, Hey, here y'all go. And then she sprinkled some music on them and keep it.

Maybe that has a part of it too. Like Beyonce's creating original things inspired by the community. Vogue was not original. It already existed. I

[00:47:49] Karen: Yeah, I know what you're saying. She didn't cherry pick. You know, she didn't cherry pick something. That's a tough one. That's a hard one

[00:48:00] Shannon: Okay, so I didn't have many examples of appreciation, so I just threw this one in there. When I was in high school, Lisa, do you remember Imran, um, we had hosted German exchange students and so one of the activities that we did with them was to go to his house and his mom dressed us up in traditional Indian attire.

Oh wow! And we were eating, um, Indian food. at their

[00:48:34] Karen: it was a teaching moment. I love that. That's a great example of cultural exchange.

Traditional Indian attire is so beautiful. All right, I think Lisa, it's time for your piece.[00:49:00]

You better

[00:49:54] Lisa: That's right. Okay. So since y'all pushing me to do it, I mean, [00:50:00] so just to let y'all guys know, I have been doing poetry for a long time, hence my name, Mona Lisa, the poet. I do have a lot of shows coming up. The one that I'm really, really excited about here again is happening in Chattanooga.

Tennessee at the Grand Soir building. It is titled wet dreams. I can't get you tickets. Um, it is Saturday, August 19th from 7 to 10 p. m. And yes, it is sharing erotic poetry along with other things that other poets will be tapping into. Me, I'm just spoken word, that's all I got in me, but they will be doing more, okay?

Um, they will have a lot of vendors there, um, tickets are 40, VIP is 60, VIP comes with drinks and Dinner. So nice. Just putting that out there. Y'all

[00:50:59] Lisa: [00:51:00] Yes. All right. Today has been great. And I have to say, thank you, Karen, for coming along. Yes. Shannon, whenever you bring people along, it's always a treat.

[00:51:15] Lisa: Thank you for being here. We got to do this again. Yeah. But to sum up today's show, it's no issue to tap into trendy, long as you know the origin and respectful of the history, okay? Know when it's a good idea to be trendy and when it's a good idea to not touch things.

Take culture, appreciation and appropriation serious.

[00:52:00] Um, if you have any comments about this episode or an upcoming episode. Go ahead and hit us up on IG or on Facebook. We're at Blacktivitiespod. Links are in the show notes. And until next week,