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A Digital Marketing Wake Up Call - REPLAY - | RR270
Episode 2706th August 2024 • Relationships Rule • Janice Porter
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An Inc. 500 CEO - Co-founder of Civilis Consulting - author of Clicksand - Bill Troy is our amazing guest for today’s episode. He is a sought-after speaker on alternative perspectives, having helped global brands like Sony, Disney, and Nestle find new market opportunities for over 25 years.

Bill is a Contrarian – and takes a unique approach to the power of building authentic relationships in a crowded digital world.

In this episode you will learn:

  • Online marketers actually don't use online marketing.
  • Your best and biggest sales come from human interaction and relationships.
  • An interesting little sales anecdote – and a lesson in sales
  • You've got to trust your gut: it's there for a reason.

You can find Bill at: https://www.civilisconsulting.com/

In appreciation for being here, I have some gifts for you:

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by taking the

3 Card Sampler – you won’t regret it.


AND … Don’t forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and be eligible for my

complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky

listener!


Connect with me:

http://JanicePorter.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1

https://www.instagram.com/socjanice/


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Transcripts

Janice Porter:

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the relationships

Janice Porter:

rule podcast. I'm your host, Janice Porter. And my special

Janice Porter:

guest this week is Bill Troy. Welcome to the show, Bill. So

Janice Porter:

thank you. So I've had the privilege and pleasure of

Janice Porter:

interviewing Bill's co founder in his company and wife, Kim, on

Janice Porter:

my podcast just recently, and I hadn't met Bill before. And I

Janice Porter:

started looking into what he was all about, and decided that I

Janice Porter:

needed to talk to him too. And he kindly offered or agreed to

Janice Porter:

come on the podcast, because Bill wrote a book called click

Janice Porter:

sand. First of all, I love the name. Second of all, the the add

Janice Porter:

on to that is cliques, and how online marketing will destroy

Janice Porter:

your business. And the unlikely secret to saving and is that

Janice Porter:

part of the Yes,

Bill Troy:

yes. Right. The publisher said you can't just

Bill Troy:

leave it with a like a negative like that. Exactly. Right. And,

Janice Porter:

and so just the first thing that I want to say

Janice Porter:

to you is contrarian, people are contrarian. So talk to me about

Janice Porter:

that, because I think I'm a bit on your side with this. So do

Janice Porter:

share, please.

Bill Troy:

Well, I will contrarian is just challenging

Bill Troy:

the status quo. You know, it probably started when I was a

Bill Troy:

kid probably started, you know, in school, every teacher go,

Bill Troy:

Wait a minute. Where'd you get that? Right? Can you prove that?

Bill Troy:

So? I just kind of taking on a persona. Yeah, I just I just

Bill Troy:

feel like so many people just go along with what everybody says

Bill Troy:

it's like,

Janice Porter:

yeah. And so you were that kid that always said,

Janice Porter:

why? Oh, yeah. Yes. I know, there used to be a kid in my

Janice Porter:

math class, back in elementary school. And every time the math

Janice Porter:

teacher said something, she had her hand up. But sir, but Sir,

Janice Porter:

and I still remember this to this day, because that's exactly

Janice Porter:

what she was doing. She was challenging everything that you

Janice Porter:

said. And we were in elementary school. So God knows what she

Janice Porter:

ended up being but the kind of thing to know. Yeah.

Bill Troy:

So I was I was not the polite one to raise my

Bill Troy:

hands. I was just in the back of the room making smart aleck

Bill Troy:

comments. So same family? Yeah,

Janice Porter:

yeah, yeah, exactly. So what I what I tell

Janice Porter:

me about cliques and and you know, what started that book.

Janice Porter:

And, and I know a little bit, but I want my audience to hear

Bill Troy:

from you. So the book really started from an

Bill Troy:

interaction we had with an elderly couple who came to

Bill Troy:

CIVILUS for marketing help. They had a business, it was an online

Bill Troy:

business. And they were spending lots of money on online ads, and

Bill Troy:

they were making sales. And they came to us and said, We really

Bill Troy:

need that your help to make to make it work to make more money

Bill Troy:

to make more sales, and we analyze the business, we

Bill Troy:

realized they were losing money on every sale, they were

Bill Troy:

spending more to get each sale with the online ads, and they

Bill Troy:

were making in profit. And they didn't really understand that

Bill Troy:

they were naive, they've been sold a franchise business was

Bill Troy:

supposed to be turnkey, was supposed to be their retirement,

Bill Troy:

they put everything into it. And they couldn't explain to them

Bill Troy:

that this is a trap, this is a negative thing. You there's no

Bill Troy:

way out of this, you've been sold a bill of goods. And it was

Bill Troy:

just really heartbreaking for us to see people sort of fall for a

Bill Troy:

sales pitch like that, and believe that with all their

Bill Troy:

heart to need to believe with all their heart, and it's like,

Bill Troy:

Okay, enough of this, I'm gonna, you know, I wasn't planning to

Bill Troy:

write a book, but it's like, I'm gonna write a book and tell

Bill Troy:

people about this. Because there are things about technology is

Bill Troy:

great. But there are things about and especially the way

Bill Troy:

it's sold and used, that is very destructive. And a lot of people

Bill Troy:

don't realize that. And a lot of business owners fall for it and

Bill Troy:

end up hurting themselves without realizing. So that's

Bill Troy:

what quicksand is out there to stop.

Janice Porter:

Yes, it's so true. You say, I know you. I've

Janice Porter:

heard you say that. You can't when you can't trust online

Janice Porter:

marketing, because even the online marketers sell face to

Janice Porter:

face, right?

Bill Troy:

Well think about that. Yeah, you've never bought

Bill Troy:

online marketing with online marketing. No, I had actually

Bill Troy:

one time with a guy who thought I told this anecdote anecdote

Bill Troy:

before that was VP of Sales for an online marketing company was

Bill Troy:

a local company selling businesses getting local

Bill Troy:

businesses on the internet. I said, Well, how you getting

Bill Troy:

clients, we have ad sales reps calling on every business in

Bill Troy:

town, like do you hear this? What what you're even saying he

Bill Troy:

didn't even understand what he was saying. It was He was so

Bill Troy:

oblivious, thinking he was helping all these clients like

Bill Troy:

it. So online marketers don't use online marketing. And here's

Bill Troy:

the here's the funny thing. And it's not just a local agency

Bill Troy:

like that. If you do go on and you buy you buy AdWords or you

Bill Troy:

buy whatever and these days the big thing is recruiting so you

Bill Troy:

sign up for indeed, if your credit card and start getting an

Bill Troy:

account, guess what you're gonna get, you're gonna get a phone

Bill Troy:

call from a helpful consultant that those companies you know

Bill Troy:

what that call titles job is to sell you more to get you to buy

Bill Troy:

more clicks, more clicks, they're not there to help you

Bill Troy:

fill the position or make sales, they're there to sell clicks.

Bill Troy:

And it's going to seem very nice and open and wonderful. But

Bill Troy:

beware. So yeah, they don't use that they sell with old school

Bill Troy:

relationships and personal. So

Janice Porter:

I also I want to ask you about this because I my

Janice Porter:

experiences with LinkedIn, and I do LinkedIn training, as you

Janice Porter:

know, and I know that I heard you say on on, may have been

Janice Porter:

another podcast, that people are not using LinkedIn to increase

Janice Porter:

intimacy, but to coerce customers. And, and, and and

Janice Porter:

when they use that third party tool, let's say to help them get

Janice Porter:

more messages out to more people and connect to more people. It's

Janice Porter:

quite often it's about selling them something and pitching them

Janice Porter:

as well. And and so I talk to people all the time about you

Janice Porter:

know, it's about trying to build a relationship, not sell, sell,

Janice Porter:

sell. And so how can you do that when you're using a third party

Janice Porter:

tool or an online tool to make those connections and message

Janice Porter:

for you? What's your answer to that? What do you say to that?

Janice Porter:

Well,

Bill Troy:

it's not the tool, any more than it's paper or

Bill Troy:

telephone. I mean, you use tools all the time to communicate with

Bill Troy:

people, I mean, you don't always aren't always face to face. So

Bill Troy:

you do send people notes and letters and emails and

Bill Troy:

telephone. So it's not the tool itself, it's how you use the

Bill Troy:

tool, and who's teaching you how to use the tool. When someone

Bill Troy:

comes to you, you don't say send as many messages, you can do as

Bill Troy:

many people as you can, and just 1% of those people don't do that

Bill Troy:

sort of thing. So you can do that with paper. I mean, one of

Bill Troy:

the anecdotes in my book is the original spam. The first spam in

Bill Troy:

the history of the world is the MacDonald the Montgomery Ward

Bill Troy:

catalog, right. In the late 1800s, people started getting

Bill Troy:

catalogs in their mailbox that didn't ask for, which was

Bill Troy:

marketing, in hopes that some small percentage of people would

Bill Troy:

buy stuff that was the original spam unsolicited marketing

Bill Troy:

messages, now we get them. So if you're going to do spam, you can

Bill Troy:

do with any tool, I mean, you can do spam with telephone, you

Bill Troy:

know, robo calls. So it's not the tool, it's how you use it.

Bill Troy:

And it's not letting the people who sell the tool who make money

Bill Troy:

from the more you use the tool, make money from you more money

Bill Troy:

from you, if you use the tool more tell you how to use the

Bill Troy:

tool, it's usually about using it better, not more, right.

Janice Porter:

And you said something else that I absolutely

Janice Porter:

love, because I teach this as well is, you know, most people

Janice Porter:

look at the top of somebody's LinkedIn profile, and they never

Janice Porter:

dig deeper and look. And when I teach people how to create their

Janice Porter:

profile, I'm always saying add here, add there, do this, add

Janice Porter:

those little things that make you human that make you unique,

Janice Porter:

that show who you are, and then the people who are really paying

Janice Porter:

attention will find those things. And we'll use them in

Janice Porter:

conversation with you. That's when you know, they're trying to

Janice Porter:

build a relationship.

Bill Troy:

Yeah. And one of the things I would add to that, I

Bill Troy:

always get pushback from people, well, I don't have time to

Bill Troy:

scroll down. Everyone's thinking, blah, blah, blah. And

Bill Troy:

you know what the answer to that is, that means you're going

Bill Troy:

after people that are too small, you need to go after bigger

Bill Troy:

customers. If you don't have the time to invest in a

Bill Troy:

relationship, then you're trying to sell something cheap and fast

Bill Troy:

and quick. And that is not a relationship. That's a

Bill Troy:

transaction. Right? And most likely your best sales, your

Bill Troy:

biggest sales ever were from human interaction and

Bill Troy:

relationships. So go after bigger customers that you can

Bill Troy:

invest the time. And every company can do that everybody

Bill Troy:

starts to say, well, we don't, I don't care. If you're a hot dog

Bill Troy:

vendor on the sidewalk, you can go after bigger customers get a

Bill Troy:

catering gig, right? corporate events, get it sold to a

Bill Troy:

corporate event and show up at a corporate party. Everybody can

Bill Troy:

go after bigger customers where there's the room and their

Bill Troy:

resources to invest in that relationship, and then use the

Bill Troy:

tools to do that. So

Janice Porter:

to me, that sounds like you have to be

Janice Porter:

creative number one. And also though, you have to have the

Janice Porter:

confidence to do that.

Bill Troy:

Yes. I think it's not even just that it's also

Bill Troy:

sticking to your values. I think there's fear. I'm afraid that if

Bill Troy:

I don't hit more people today than my competitor, I'm gonna

Bill Troy:

fall behind. There's a sort of fear of fear of missing out

Bill Troy:

right home. And that is perpetuated by the people who

Bill Troy:

sell digital marketing tools, massive marketing tools, and

Bill Troy:

you've got to find out what's true inside you and go with

Bill Troy:

that. And that's that's a message I share a lot with CEOs

Bill Troy:

because what I find is the business owners, let's say

Bill Troy:

they're a little older and grayer like I am. They're told

Bill Troy:

that they're out of touch, right? Because they didn't just

Bill Troy:

graduate from a marketing online marketing class at the community

Bill Troy:

college last month, and so they don't know the latest and

Bill Troy:

greatest digital tools. And so you're, you're, you're you don't

Bill Troy:

get it step out of the way. Let me show you how it's done. It's

Bill Troy:

like, No, you know, the root values of this company and what

Bill Troy:

the customer needs. And don't let people push you aside, step

Bill Troy:

back in and say, Look, this is what we do. This is how we treat

Bill Troy:

people. And if we're going to use digital tools, it's still

Bill Troy:

got fit within that we cannot sacrifice that for some, you

Bill Troy:

know, Mirage, we're going to chase with some perfect keyword.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, that's so true. So it's, it's also then

Janice Porter:

about that famous word that I love is wisdom is about those of

Janice Porter:

us with some wisdom needs to stand in our stand our ground

Janice Porter:

and, and know and believe that what we're saying still holds

Janice Porter:

true. And I think it does. And, and it's funny, because I was

Janice Porter:

talking to a woman yesterday, about the other side of my

Janice Porter:

business, the relationship marketing tool that I use that

Janice Porter:

we've talked about. And she said, You know, I send cards to

Janice Porter:

my grandchildren, my, like, young adult grandchildren, and

Janice Porter:

my teenage grandchildren, but they never say thank you. She

Janice Porter:

said, I don't think they've been taught to say thank you. And I

Janice Porter:

said, first of all, they should be sending you cards and picking

Janice Porter:

up the phone and talking to you. But secondly, you're probably

Janice Porter:

right. I mean, in some cases, you know, that add mentality

Janice Porter:

that, that, you know, we're still busy that we just have to

Janice Porter:

keep moving, and we forget to teach our children some of these

Janice Porter:

things today, you know, because we're trying to do so many

Janice Porter:

things, and keep your head above water, generally speaking, but

Janice Porter:

that just made me think that's kind of fit with what you were

Janice Porter:

saying in terms of, you know, stick to your stick to your

Janice Porter:

ground. And, and, and know that it really, people have to trust

Janice Porter:

their gut more, I think, I don't know, I've been looking for

Janice Porter:

somebody to help me with a website. And I just knew when I

Janice Porter:

talked to this woman, that she was the right person for me. I

Janice Porter:

didn't know it was the relationship building the

Janice Porter:

feeling that I was getting, I wasn't getting snowed by I can

Janice Porter:

do this, this and this, right? So I didn't. So you've worked

Janice Porter:

with some big companies. In your time, you've worked with brands

Janice Porter:

like Sony and Disney and Nestle. Do you have an interesting story

Janice Porter:

from one of those that you can recall that that speaks to this?

Janice Porter:

Because to the power of relationships and in in

Janice Porter:

marketing?

Bill Troy:

Well, I'll tell you, so one of the things I think

Bill Troy:

it's all confusing in the world these days is what is marketing

Bill Troy:

or what is sales, I think a lot of people believe marketing is

Bill Troy:

sales, and the same thing. But I can tell you an interesting

Bill Troy:

little sales anecdote that relates to the relationship idea

Bill Troy:

about how I got to work for someone, okay, we we had a

Bill Troy:

client that was I owned a market research company for about 25

Bill Troy:

years. And we had done work for various clients, and a VP at one

Bill Troy:

of those clients was let go was out of work. And so, you know,

Bill Troy:

if you're going to work, no one wants to talk to you, because

Bill Troy:

they don't want to try to pitch me for a job. But I've been out

Bill Troy:

of work myself, when I was in my 20s, I worked for a company that

Bill Troy:

got bought by another company, and they had their own people.

Bill Troy:

So we were all getting checks and one meeting like see you're

Bill Troy:

out of here. So I've been out of work before. And I'm like, so I

Bill Troy:

reached out to Bruce, I'm like, Hey, what's going on, you got

Bill Troy:

some free time. But if you want to connect, let's talk and just

Bill Troy:

catch up, we had not had a lot of time to talk when he was a

Bill Troy:

client of ours. And so we actually kind of struck up a

Bill Troy:

little more of a relationship than we had before. And I I

Bill Troy:

didn't just call him because he was not at work. And I'd been

Bill Troy:

there myself, didn't think anything about it. And then he

Bill Troy:

got a job at Sony. And he called me and said, Hey, I'm going to

Bill Troy:

start at Sony next week, I want to talk to you about something,

Bill Troy:

okay. And sure enough, he had an idea that he came to me and

Bill Troy:

said, Can we do that that day? And I said, Yeah, we can

Bill Troy:

absolutely do that it turned into the biggest client we ever

Bill Troy:

had. And it was because I called an unemployed guy. So I'm sure

Bill Troy:

when your marketing agency comes in, they don't say, you know,

Bill Troy:

call everybody who's unemployed. But I didn't, I call them

Bill Troy:

because it was a relationship. But that was the kind of thing

Bill Troy:

that paid off down the road. So that was the beginning of let's

Bill Troy:

see some new ways to do things. And if you really sort of look

Bill Troy:

at what drives your business, what kind of relationships drive

Bill Troy:

your business. And so we actually turn that just to

Bill Troy:

finish that anecdote. We turned that into a process in our

Bill Troy:

company, we started watching the trade press, for people that

Bill Troy:

work at companies that people we knew who were out of work and we

Bill Troy:

reached out to him, we built a whole package to help them when

Bill Troy:

they were out of work. Make some introductions in those days.

Bill Troy:

This was in the 90s, early 2000s helped them build little

Bill Troy:

personal webpage like you're talking about LinkedIn, we just

Bill Troy:

help them at that moment when they needed help without any

Bill Troy:

expectation. We don't know if they're going to use our

Bill Troy:

services later but good relationship stuff, right? So

Bill Troy:

you don't know where you're going to find the right kinds of

Bill Troy:

relationships to help people with but that's

Janice Porter:

a great story because if you come from your

Janice Porter:

heart hmm, yeah, it pays off is that law of reciprocity too,

Janice Porter:

because you never know what's going to come back. It could

Janice Porter:

come from some Where else right?

Bill Troy:

So let me let me tell you when Bruce got the job at

Bill Troy:

Sony, yeah, his phone ringing off the hook that everybody

Bill Troy:

wants to call him. Right? Well, too late, right. So that's,

Bill Troy:

that's, yeah, there's

Janice Porter:

the moral to the story, right? Yeah, that's

Janice Porter:

really good. So I had asked in the information I sent you what

Janice Porter:

your favorite quote was, and you mentioned one from Steve Jobs.

Janice Porter:

It's not the tools you have faith in tools are just tools,

Janice Porter:

they work or they don't work. It's people you have faith in or

Janice Porter:

not. And that really speaks to what we just said. And yeah, and

Janice Porter:

he never struck me as a people person. Steve was who I love it

Janice Porter:

then. Exactly, exactly. You knew that? Yes, of course he did. And

Janice Porter:

when you Okay, so, your business now your CIVILUS consulting

Janice Porter:

business when your wife run together? I know she's the boss,

Janice Porter:

though. Right?

Bill Troy:

She is. Yeah, I'm the idea guy. Everything.

Janice Porter:

So is it now I know, it's been going for many

Janice Porter:

years now? Is does business come to you? Or are you still seeking

Janice Porter:

business? And if it comes to you, or when it comes to you? Do

Janice Porter:

you ever have to turn people wait, because they're not

Janice Porter:

thinking the way you want them? To think or?

Bill Troy:

Yeah, definitely comes to us. And we definitely

Bill Troy:

have to turn a lot of people away. Because we have very

Bill Troy:

specific mindset. And right, we're not going to work for

Bill Troy:

somebody that doesn't have that mindset. I'll give you an

Bill Troy:

example. Right now, recruiting is really big. I mean, everybody

Bill Troy:

needs talent. Everybody needs staff. Yeah, no one can find

Bill Troy:

enough and except our clients, we help them we help them

Bill Troy:

develop a relationship based recruiting strategy versus a

Bill Troy:

transaction based recruiting strategy. So somebody who is

Bill Troy:

spending 1000s of dollars a month on Indeed, and getting so

Bill Troy:

many clicks and applications that can't keep up with all of

Bill Troy:

them still aren't filling their positions. That's the kind of

Bill Troy:

person we're working with. Right now. They're coming to us,

Bill Troy:

because we've solved it for some other clients like, oh, call the

Bill Troy:

CIVILUS. Guys, they've got a solution to get out of that debt

Bill Troy:

trap. But they're some of those companies can't let go of it.

Bill Troy:

You know, I can't let go of this budget I spend on Indeed,

Bill Troy:

because then I won't have any clicks. Like, why do you want

Bill Troy:

clicks, you want clicks, you want people working here who

Bill Troy:

love working here. And that's a completely different approach

Bill Troy:

completely different. And some people are afraid to let go of

Bill Troy:

that the tools, the online tools are so addictive. And nobody

Bill Troy:

realizes how addictive they are. But if you're involved, you're

Bill Troy:

participating in almost like a casino. Dashboard, and you're

Bill Troy:

seeing that? Yeah.

Janice Porter:

Did they think they're getting more for their

Janice Porter:

money? Yes,

Bill Troy:

yeah, they've been, they forget what they're trying

Bill Troy:

to actually get, which is people to work there and stay there.

Bill Troy:

They think they're now trying to get clicks and views and opens

Bill Troy:

and likes and all that sort of stuff. Like, wait a minute, that

Bill Troy:

doesn't lead to anything, you don't want clicks. So we have

Bill Troy:

some people that just can't let go of that they're too afraid to

Bill Troy:

go in the direction of relationships, basically. And

Bill Troy:

it's like, well, we can't work well. So people

Janice Porter:

who have spent the money on something like

Janice Porter:

indeed and so on to do that, and then they come to you do you

Janice Porter:

take what they have and work from that and start to sift

Janice Porter:

through or do you go another approach completely?

Bill Troy:

We would say take the resources you're putting into it

Bill Troy:

into a deed and go somewhere else but we wouldn't try to

Bill Troy:

tweak their indeed campaign necessarily. No,

Janice Porter:

no, no, but they've got all these people are

Janice Porter:

all these. I don't even know how it works. So they get resumes.

Janice Porter:

Is that how they

Bill Troy:

Yeah, they get you know, they get applicants. It's

Janice Porter:

yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. I just thought I

Janice Porter:

like it's my hamster wheel. I also have resumes online that

Janice Porter:

they have to sift through route

Bill Troy:

don't fit anybody don't fit anything. It doesn't

Bill Troy:

constantly the applicant just hits up click apply, apply,

Bill Troy:

apply play can't filter anyone and then you just dealing with

Bill Troy:

all these. Yeah, so we would stop and say okay, whoa, whoa,

Bill Troy:

whoa, stop. Where did your best people come from? Who do you

Bill Troy:

love that works here? Who do you who would you want to get and

Bill Troy:

let's build a and so you end up building something that's

Bill Troy:

completely different rather than some online strategy you might

Bill Troy:

end up we have a moving company we work with we help them

Bill Troy:

connect into the local soccer community because it turns out

Bill Troy:

that soccer players are ideal. Yes, work to work in a moving

Bill Troy:

company because they're you don't need big and strong

Bill Troy:

stamina, right? Yes, yeah. And flexibility and because you got

Bill Troy:

you know, tools to help you lift everything. And so soccer, the

Bill Troy:

soccer community was the place to find people that love the job

Bill Troy:

and you could feed back and it and suddenly now we're this is

Bill Troy:

something more meaningful than just moving furniture, right?

Bill Troy:

Yeah, that's it. hear there's people watching for a reason

Bill Troy:

it's connected to what else that then things I love. And so you

Bill Troy:

know, it's a longer process than what I just explained. But

Bill Troy:

that's the direction you start going it is what it is if

Bill Troy:

somebody starts school or the community college or what's the

Bill Troy:

community, where do your people live? How do you get to know

Bill Troy:

them? And suddenly, there's no ads need to be run at all,

Bill Troy:

because everybody on the soccer team saying, Hey, guys, I love

Bill Troy:

this job, you gotta come work here and more applicants than

Bill Troy:

you can handle. So that's,

Janice Porter:

that's a great example. Actually, I quite like

Janice Porter:

that. That's very cool.

Bill Troy:

And you never know exactly where it's going to be

Bill Troy:

for each company. But for every company, you can find a way to

Bill Troy:

connect into some deeper thing with people and get people to

Bill Troy:

work there. Yeah,

Janice Porter:

for sure, for sure. I like that you, you use

Janice Porter:

the word and I'm just going back to something the volume versus

Janice Porter:

intimacy. I love that because that's really what it is. It's

Janice Porter:

about building that relationship. Now, I just want

Janice Porter:

to take a side to tour for a second. I know we weren't going

Janice Porter:

to talk about anything other than this piece. But I am a

Janice Porter:

curious person, which I'm going to talk to you about in a

Janice Porter:

minute. But my curiosity is about the music part of your

Janice Porter:

life. Sure. Talk to me about that. Like, are you a musician,

Janice Porter:

by the way?

Bill Troy:

No, I'm not a musician. Okay. Okay. I'm a

Bill Troy:

writer. Oh, yes. So I do songwriting. So that's a long

Bill Troy:

life. That's a lifelong process. I was in the radio business for

Bill Troy:

years and years ago, okay. And then as the market research

Bill Troy:

company I started was focusing on entertainment media. So we

Bill Troy:

worked for a lot of entertainment media clients, as

Bill Troy:

well as consumer clients who grew into that, but we worked

Bill Troy:

for a lot of record companies and radio stations, television

Bill Troy:

stations, and so on. And so that's how I got connected into

Bill Troy:

the music world. And then I, well, I have some creative bone

Bill Troy:

in my body. So I just start creating stuff. So now, I'm

Bill Troy:

involved in creating music and publishing some music and trying

Bill Troy:

to make that annual creative outlet.

Janice Porter:

And is that one genre or different genres?

Bill Troy:

It's different. So quickly, the music industry

Bill Troy:

story. If you're going to write music, and not be a performer,

Bill Troy:

really, country's probably about the only type of music where you

Bill Troy:

can do that, where you can write songs and other artists will

Bill Troy:

perform most other types of music, I guess, certainly, if

Bill Troy:

you're going to write plays, or something like that, or, or

Bill Troy:

classical type music, other artists would perform, and you

Bill Troy:

wouldn't actually be the performer. But if you're going

Bill Troy:

to be a pop star, or you're going to, you know, get into the

Bill Troy:

world of rap or rock, you're going to write your own

Bill Troy:

material, performing raw material. But a country is a

Bill Troy:

format where people artists perform other people's songs and

Bill Troy:

are looking for other songs. So that's the place where you can

Bill Troy:

write music, and have other people interested in performing.

Bill Troy:

And

Janice Porter:

those actually with that, with that genre with

Janice Porter:

country music, they're storytelling all the time,

Janice Porter:

right, more than any other genre. So that's kind of

Janice Porter:

interesting. Okay, thank you for sharing that with me. And I

Janice Porter:

said, curiosity, that's my favorite words. So I'd like to

Janice Porter:

ask you my two part question, which I love to ask my, my

Janice Porter:

guests. And the first part is do you think curiosity is innate?

Janice Porter:

Or learned? And the second part is, what are you most curious

Janice Porter:

about these days? Wow, I need

Bill Troy:

I think it's both I think that

Janice Porter:

you want me to read this note that you sent me

Janice Porter:

and you can talk from that?

Bill Troy:

I remind Sure. Yeah. I

Janice Porter:

just thought you weren't? You weren't sure. Go

Janice Porter:

ahead.

Bill Troy:

No, I'm, I'm just thinking about them. Before we

Bill Troy:

get into. I just think that is both. I think that we as a

Bill Troy:

species, we come with a certain amount of curiosity, but I think

Bill Troy:

we're sort of our brain is trained and formed in childhood

Bill Troy:

and a young adulthood about whether curiosity is rewarded.

Bill Troy:

So I think it's encouraged, you're not when you're growing

Bill Troy:

up, mine was encouraged to challenge the status quo, right.

Bill Troy:

So I do that as an adult. I mean, I my parents, you know,

Bill Troy:

challenge authority, you go back and tell them, you know, and so

Bill Troy:

that's what I do. So I think you come with a, like an ability for

Bill Troy:

curiosity, but then I think it's formed in your childhood about

Bill Troy:

whether you express it and go toward it.

Janice Porter:

That's a good answer. I've never heard that

Janice Porter:

one before. So that makes me want to ask you though, what did

Janice Porter:

your parents do that, that encouraged that? Contrary, it

Janice Porter:

can come prairie

Bill Troy:

can train them that my parents were both

Bill Troy:

contrarians, they are just and they taught me in both positive

Bill Troy:

and negative reinforcement ways, right to basically challenge

Bill Troy:

authority. Nobody's gonna tell you what to do. You're gonna No

Bill Troy:

one's gonna do that. And they even when they told me what to

Bill Troy:

do, my job is was to stand up to them say no, you're not, you

Bill Troy:

know, and I think they liked that. They liked that. You know,

Bill Troy:

they felt like they were making a strong man who would be able

Bill Troy:

to survive in a world and no one. So that was sort of You

Bill Troy:

know, our household challenged the rules. Yeah. Some of those

Bill Troy:

parents know when I got in trouble at school. I got in

Bill Troy:

trouble. You do the crime do the time. But I also got the wink.

Bill Troy:

So that was a good one. Don't do it again. Yeah. Yeah, that was

Bill Troy:

our house inside outside

Janice Porter:

thing. Yes. Okay, and, and so what are you most

Janice Porter:

curious about today?

Bill Troy:

I'm most curious about what's in my blind spot.

Bill Troy:

Right. So I don't know if you're familiar with Johari Window. And

Bill Troy:

people can Google that if they want J O H, a car I window is a

Bill Troy:

it's a little graphic that was designed by two guys named Joe

Bill Troy:

and Harris. Very creative name. But it basically divides the

Bill Troy:

world up into what you what you can see what you can't see. And

Bill Troy:

then what other people can see and what other people can't see.

Bill Troy:

It's a four little two by two box. Okay. But I really, as I've

Bill Troy:

gotten older, come to realize how much of the world in reality

Bill Troy:

is in that blind area that I can't see. Because I see what I

Bill Troy:

see, I believe what I believe, you know, like rules must be

Bill Troy:

challenged. Well, that's not true. It just is what I do.

Bill Troy:

Right? So what if rules aren't challenged. So this idea of

Bill Troy:

questioning what's really going on and looking for other

Bill Troy:

possibilities is what's always fascinating to me. And I think

Bill Troy:

that's where so much opportunity lies, is to go into areas. And

Bill Troy:

and I mentioned this when we were emailing back and forth

Bill Troy:

earlier about in the areas of adversity. So that's I mentioned

Bill Troy:

the Brian kite thing where he talks about tides consultant,

Bill Troy:

friend of mine who talks about how humans are not we're not

Bill Troy:

capable of recognize the difference in adversity and

Bill Troy:

opportunity. Frequently, what we think is one thing is the other,

Bill Troy:

you know, this looks great, and then it crashes or this looks

Bill Troy:

terrible, when it turns out to be great. So what he advocates

Bill Troy:

is that in order to succeed, you have to go toward adversity,

Bill Troy:

because you just have to believe that's opportunity, because

Bill Troy:

you're bad at recognizing it. So just always go toward adversity.

Bill Troy:

Love that, right? That's kind of what I'm doing is going well,

Bill Troy:

okay. I don't like this. This feels weird. I need to go toward

Bill Troy:

it. See what's going on there. So that's, that's what a

Bill Troy:

curiosity means for me.

Janice Porter:

Oh, that's really interesting. Unless I check back

Janice Porter:

with you and see how that has worked out. Because that takes

Janice Porter:

courage to write? Yes,

Bill Troy:

really does. It takes practice and courage because the

Bill Troy:

beginning it's scary, you're going toward things that are

Bill Troy:

scary. And, but then it's like practicing anything else

Bill Troy:

practicing juggling or practicing piano, if you do it

Bill Troy:

enough, you go, Oh, I know this, I can do this one I'm good at so

Bill Troy:

you get good at going toward adversity. And because you keep

Bill Troy:

realizing now every time I do that, I find some interesting

Bill Troy:

stuff. So it's, it's something you can practice.

Janice Porter:

Yeah, that's really interesting. When I think

Janice Porter:

about things I've done, though, that I've been very afraid of,

Janice Porter:

like climbing to the top of a pole and you know, jumping off

Janice Porter:

into oblivion. I mean, I thought the second time I got the

Janice Porter:

opportunity to do it, I wouldn't be as scared. But I was. So I

Janice Porter:

did it. But I was just scared and went through the same

Janice Porter:

emotions I went through the first time. Like, I can't do

Janice Porter:

this kind of thing. But I did it anyway, another story for

Janice Porter:

another day. But, um, so lots of interesting things on the

Janice Porter:

horizon for you. I know. Because you operate in many different

Janice Porter:

fields, what would you say is the most important message that

Janice Porter:

you might want to leave with my listeners today? Around what

Janice Porter:

we've really been talking about relationships, and yeah,

Bill Troy:

I would say that you've got to trust your gut,

Bill Troy:

it's there for a reason.

Bill Troy:

And the world right now, and not just now, but the world

Bill Troy:

increasingly will continue to try to take you away from your

Bill Troy:

gut. And that whether we're talking about cliques and

Bill Troy:

technology tools that are trying to convince you to, you know,

Bill Troy:

manipulate people in line or whatever, or whether it's, you

Bill Troy:

know, who knows what it is? And I think that, you've got to go

Bill Troy:

back to that really know what that is it for example,

Bill Troy:

relationships, do you have a good clear definition of what a

Bill Troy:

relationship is? I think a lot of people use the word but they

Bill Troy:

don't really well. I don't know, what is, Do I have a clear? Do I

Bill Troy:

know if I have one with someone? Right? And we do in CIVILUS, we

Bill Troy:

actually do that with people. I mean, when for example, you can

Bill Troy:

measure the relationship with someone, when you send them a

Bill Troy:

note of any type, any kind of email, telephone message,

Bill Troy:

whatever, a few get one back. That's the first indication you

Bill Troy:

have relationship. And B, if you have a really good relationship,

Bill Troy:

they put as much or more energy into their response than you

Bill Troy:

did. Right. My best friend when I send him a note, I get a

Bill Troy:

paragraph back, you get what? I get a paragraph backwards and in

Bill Troy:

one sentence, right? And so you can say, Oh, I have a

Bill Troy:

relationship with him where he feels good about spending time

Bill Troy:

with me. and investing in me, it's not I'm trying. So you can

Bill Troy:

actually start to realize and measure whether you have

Bill Troy:

relationships, you can define it. And then you're gonna find

Bill Troy:

that that is something that comes from your heart from your

Bill Troy:

gut. And you know if it's right or not, and you got to stick to

Bill Troy:

it, there's no reason and this is a lot of what we spend time

Bill Troy:

with on CIVILUS. with clients, there's no reason you have to

Bill Troy:

sacrifice your values to succeed. And in fact, our theory

Bill Troy:

is that if you go toward your values, and go toward that, what

Bill Troy:

feels like adversity scary, going toward my own values feels

Bill Troy:

scary. But that's the case for a lot of people I'm going to lose

Bill Troy:

my business from and you'll find you can be more successful,

Bill Troy:

you're gonna be more authentic, you're going to come up with new

Bill Troy:

solutions. And that's what you need to do is go toward your gut

Bill Troy:

and not listen to other people.

Janice Porter:

Amen. I mean, that's right. That's so true.

Janice Porter:

And I think that's a great place to stop because I could go here,

Janice Porter:

there and everywhere with you. I love that though. You know that

Janice Porter:

it feels scary. But you have to stick to your guns, because in

Janice Porter:

the end, you won't love yourself at all. If you don't, if you

Janice Porter:

don't, right, it just wouldn't feel right. Well,

Bill Troy:

and, you know, I'll tell you, anecdotally, from we

Bill Troy:

talked about the music industry a little bit ago. When you begin

Bill Troy:

in something like music industry, or whatever business

Bill Troy:

you're in, you think you're there to satisfy other people,

Bill Troy:

and the more other people love you and more applause and sales

Bill Troy:

you get that's love. And what you'll find in the long run is

Bill Troy:

that it's not right. You know, the most successful music, music

Bill Troy:

art in the world, artists in the world end up sort of crashing

Bill Troy:

out going well, that's just plastic and fake. And I want to

Bill Troy:

get back to truth and react and real. And so it can be the same

Bill Troy:

as as a business owner, you start off well, this is where we

Bill Troy:

need to go as we need to grow and you get revenue bla bla bla

Bill Troy:

bla, and you can get you can take yourself away from what you

Bill Troy:

are all about. And then you're just you build something that

Bill Troy:

isn't you you hate, I don't want you to can't. So you've got to

Bill Troy:

stick to your gut, you've got to stick to what's what your true

Bill Troy:

values are, and, and then insert that into your company, and

Bill Troy:

it'll work. That's

Janice Porter:

awesome. Thank you for all that great advice.

Janice Porter:

Yes. And I'm sure that the people that listen to my show

Janice Porter:

will appreciate hearing some of those things and it's a lot of

Janice Porter:

food for thought for some people. So you know, very well

Janice Porter:

taken and Bill. I will put in the show notes, but where can

Janice Porter:

people find your book or find you if they are? Right

Bill Troy:

so the company is Seville this consultancy IDI LIS

Bill Troy:

consulting.com, and I'm billing sales consulting, and the book

Bill Troy:

is quicksand CLI CK sa nd and that's available on Amazon if

Bill Troy:

they want to read it. It's interesting historical reading.

Bill Troy:

And one of the things I do in the book is talk about how this

Bill Troy:

quicksand in we're in now is not new. I talked about that Mark

Bill Troy:

Montgomery Ward catalog it's 100 year process that we're involved

Bill Troy:

with. So it's not something new. You're not out of touch every

Bill Troy:

century.

Janice Porter:

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your

Janice Porter:

time. Thank you for your your wisdom and thank you to my

Janice Porter:

audience for listening again and appreciate you if you like what

Janice Porter:

you heard, please leave a review and remember to stay connected

Janice Porter:

and be remembered

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