This week, Andy and I are talking about the furries, a fiscal cliff, higher education, and trade schools.

You can also watch it on YouTube.

Show Notes:

• https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/theyre-furious-in-oklahoma-plus-baesler
• https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/01/17/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-improving-student-achievement-agenda-in-2024/
• Bellwether School Finance: https://bellwether.org/tag/school-finance/
• Bellwether Admission: https://bellwether.org/beta/admission/
• Higher Ed Hypocrisy: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/odds-ends-and-fish-higher-ed-pisa

Hey Jed, how are you?

2

Hey Andy, good to see you.

3

It's good to see you.

4

It's good to see you.

5

Jed: It's been a while since

the holidays, but the first time

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I've seen you so happy new year.

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Andy: Thank you I appreciate I appreciate

8

a bumpy start here, but we're things

are things are looking up Um, um,

9

we're looking forward Uh, it's great

to see you and we get the podcast.

10

It's just the two of us today but

we've got some uh, we've got some

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cool guests coming up and What looks

like it'll be our first live episode.

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We'll have more details, but

we've been invited to, uh, be the

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plenary session in an education

conference and record live there.

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So I have no idea who came up

with that bad idea and they'll

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probably be jobless pretty soon.

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Um, we're gonna, we're gonna give it a go.

17

Jed: Yeah.

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Both these guests and the live recording

could really like just pull back the mask

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and reveal us to be completely clueless

about what we're really doing here.

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But, um, it's fun that people are

inviting us and that the recording seems

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to be resonating with a lot of people.

22

Andy: Well, our technician wanted me

to, I was like, I didn't want to have

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my mic in the picture when he said,

that's what you're supposed to do.

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So we even have like fancy podcaster mics.

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Jed: Well, um, we'll, uh, we'll see

what happens here when we get in

26

front of a live audience and we can't

go back and re record it six times.

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Like we've actually been doing it,

just not disclosing to our audience.

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Exactly.

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Andy: They were actually, we're actually

reading from a script paid for by our

30

billionaire or our bill, our billionaire

backers and people actually discovered.

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Live they're gonna be able

to see the teleprompters.

32

Jed: Well, it's not like we bring

any um, attitude of I don't know.

33

What's the word i'm looking for here.

34

It's not like we don't bring um a

creative idea to all of the content that

35

we're generating here like Your furriest

post here from just a couple days ago.

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Yeah,

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Andy: we can talk about that But I think

you're I think it is a safe bet There

38

is no one watching this podcast who's

thinking like oh, yeah These guys have

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this all scripted out and and planned and

so forth ahead of time Uh, I think no one

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anyone is in more than a couple of minutes

is not gonna be laboring into that.

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Uh that illusion Yes, what would you do if

I told you And i'll actually tell you like

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when I first heard about this my thought

process If I told you there was a bill in

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an American state to have kids who come to

school dressed as furries, so we can talk

44

about what a furry is in a sec, removed,

and if the parents didn't take them home,

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the animal control would pick them up.

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I mean, Would you think that

I, that that was just bullshit?

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I was just messing around with you

or would you think that was real?

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Jed: Unfortunately, my experience

working in legislatures now for more

49

than 15 years, nothing surprises me.

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Not even that Andy.

51

Andy: All right.

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You're even more cynical than I am.

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I'm pretty cynical.

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But when someone sent that to me, I

thought they were playing a joke and I

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thought it was actually sort of funny.

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And then I realized.

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This is actually real.

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We'll talk about the legislation.

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And then the second time when somebody

sent the bill sponsor talking about it,

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I again thought this had to be made up.

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But local journalists were retweeting,

obviously know this person is, you

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know, you know, could recognize them.

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And, uh, and so it turned

out that was real too.

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We could talk about all that.

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So the back story is there is a bill

in Oklahoma that's been introduced and

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there's been, it's not the first one.

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There's a little bit of a

legislative history or some

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different things there in Oklahoma.

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Yeah.

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Um, with everything going on with schools,

the thing that some people are most

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upset about is furries, which are people

who identify or dress up as animals.

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Um, some, some teens do this,

some adults, um, obviously most of

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us do it when we're little kids.

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Um, and there's been

some other legislation.

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This one is intended, uh, to ban

furries from school activities.

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So if a kid shows up.

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Dressed like that they are then

not allowed to participate and if

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their parents won't come get them

animal control will so like There's

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a lot to unpack here That's a lot of

words most of which are absolutely

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crazy and so there's a lot to unpack

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Jed: I just wonder What is the legislator

saying in in his or her district

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about the gravity of this issue?

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I mean, what do you think got

it going in the first place?

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Did some irate constituent bring

it to him or her or I mean, how

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do you think he even gets going?

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Andy: Oh, I don't know in his video

about it He does make a point which

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I I do think is honestly it's hard to

dispute I can't dispute which is that

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you can't teach cats to count and I mean

i'm not I'm, not an expert on cats, but

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that does like intuitively make sense

to me But we're not talking about cats.

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We're talking about potentially a

kid maybe dressed as a cat or with

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cat ears or something or a cat tail.

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Um, so, uh, so it doesn't really apply.

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But I mean, that's that's

like the one point you I do

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think it's kind of inarguable.

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You probably cannot teach

a cat to to actually count.

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Um, Uh, so I don't know what is driving it

actually have a theory of what's driving.

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We can talk about that a second.

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That's a little bit more serious.

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Um, the thing I found interesting

about it, though, it showed I'm

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not even sure it's well thought

through because this person obviously

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thinks and I do believe the same

legislature was caught up in this hole.

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You may remember a year or two

ago, there was a whole bullshit

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hoax that like, Schools were

providing litter boxes to kids.

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And of course it wasn't true, but it's

one of these things that was too good to

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check and it tied into some other culture

war stuff, which again, we'll talk some

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of the more serious stuff behind this.

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Um, and I think this guy

was, was part of that.

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Um, but the part I found interesting,

honestly, is if his whole thing

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is, this is made up, it's not real.

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These aren't real identities.

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You shouldn't respect them.

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Like if you're saying.

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We're going to get animal control.

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I mean, animal control.

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It's right there in the name.

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It's animal control.

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You're essentially validating

the identity by doing this.

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So I'm not even sure like that.

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He thought it through in terms of what

he was saying, because I would assume

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some segment of people who want to

identify as animals would be happy to

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be Recognized that way by the state

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Jed: and he must think that there are

political points to score by doing

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this There's something about some

deep human identity That is at risk

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within the current society that needs

protection and this is his way To signal

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that he's serious about these issues,

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Andy: I guess And I will

I guess I will share.

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I mean, there's two things One, this

is one of these people who you can

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just tell he is liberty loving and

freedom loving and all the rest.

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And I do think, um, an aspect missing

from our culture wars on a lot of this

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stuff is if you are for freedom, you

should be for letting people express

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themselves basically however they want.

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insofar as it doesn't affect others

and people dressing up as animals or

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identifying as animals like that has no,

I mean, that doesn't, has no, it's not

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what I'm into, but it has no resonance.

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Like it doesn't matter, um, to my life.

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Right.

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So go, if that makes you

happy, like go do it.

138

Um, and I do think, uh, the political

left has, has, has failed to sort of put

139

a freedom frame around a lot of this.

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And there is just an enormous

contradiction around a lot of this, which

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is people who are like, I'm for freedom,

and I'm for, you know, don't tread on me,

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yadda yadda, and then, uh, you know, get

up in arms and end up taking, like, very

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coercive positions, and I feel like that's

been, that's a place where mishandled

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these cultural issues, that is wrong.

145

Jed: Well, I just find the

lawmaking related to public

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education policy right now.

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Off the mark, you know, is it

furrious or is it spurious?

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I I find that you know,

um, I wrote something

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Andy: That's not part of the podcast.

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We're gonna pause A lot of puns

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Jed: Yes.

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Well, I mean as far as it wasn't quite

a pun, but it was at least a rhyme.

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I I wrote something Um, where I said,

when cursive becomes discursive, a couple

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weeks ago and I talked about how in the

California legislature, the year, the six

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year mandate to teach cursive writing in

elementary schools passed unanimously.

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Unanimously.

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Nothing passes unanimously

in the California Assembly.

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I had to Google and look for some.

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There were two other bills I could find.

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One actually was a serious one.

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We'll leave that one aside.

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The other one, it's serious also, but

just reflects something so nonsensical.

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There was a bill that gave vets, I mean

veterinarians, the ability to serve their,

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their, their patients with, with telecare.

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So if you, if you've got a, a, a, you

know, a dog or whatever with a, with

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a, with a fur infection or whatever

it is, it's now legal in the state of

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California to show your pet's ailment.

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To your veterinarian via

telehealth the thing that just

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comes up is when did it ever pass?

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When did the law ever pass in

the past that it was not okay?

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For an owner to a pet owner to show

something to their veterinarian but

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these are the kinds of laws that need

to get taken off the books because

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they're just So ridiculous and

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Andy: there are too many laws

and I think we can like that.

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That's a like I think that's like a

general problem And like it affects

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it that that cuts across and obviously

anytime you have a law at some level

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It's going to have to be enforced

And so you should be like this law is

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important enough that I am comfortable

having it enforced And we've seen as

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we've seen sometimes that you know That

enforced me to get people interacting

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with police for trivial things and

that can go that can go badly Um,

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that's gonna be an issue with teachers

on one of all these rules in school.

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Teachers are gonna have to

enforce all those various rules.

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And so you should think about that.

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So I do think that's an issue and you

do just have like both just sort of

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archaic laws that are left and then

just like too many laws about too many.

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Things I don't think you have

to be like some like radical

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libertarian to to think that

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Jed: and we're in an era where people

Where policymakers just have no idea

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what to do in education that we've got

serious problems and no one can address

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them Substantively so they end up

Passing these other laws that I don't

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think make any sense whether whether or

not you teach cursive in an elementary

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school I think it's an important

decision Yes, and each school or and

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you can make some fairly compelling

arguments that the act of learning

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cursive Is good for brain development

and all those kinds of I hear it.

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I hear it but the idea that you're

going to Mandate that for six years

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when I told that to my my teenagers.

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They happen to be there When I first saw

the story, they thought it was a joke.

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They thought it was

something out of the onion.

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What?

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Six years of learning cursive?

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No guys, this is actually serious, right?

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But, you know, we have this need now to

be involved in education in some way.

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And in the past we were engaging

on serious reform issues.

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Some which turned out okay, some which

didn't, but mostly all the substantive

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real reform stuff is on the sidelines now.

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And we're doing these, these other things,

which I think are completely off topic.

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Andy: Well, you and I have

talked about that in the past.

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I think like politics abhors a

vacuum and we've created one.

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There's no arguments in

front of school boards.

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We're not talking, even in the wake

of the pandemic, we're not really

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talking about teaching and learning.

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And so all this other stuff.

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Comes rushing in which is all this

culture war, uh kinds of things front

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again And I know people as soon as I say

this people cringe but like from both

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sides both sides of the side We're not

talking about academics Let's bring all

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of our favored things in into schools

And you end up that becomes a place

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where people go to fight over this stuff

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Jed: Yeah, I mean in my first

post of the year at charter folk.

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I wrote about The DeSantis folks,

um, basically restricting the

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teaching of slavery in California.

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Meanwhile, the San Francisco School

Board, you know, they had a mural where

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there were slaves that were presented

and they want to cover the mural.

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Both sides want to cover history

or represent history or whatever

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it is, and it's this viewing of

public education as a landscape.

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Um, or a canvas upon which you

can paint your political pictures

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that creates so much dysfunction.

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Look at Macron just this week in France.

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He wants a political reset.

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He wants to put himself

further to the right.

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One of the first things that he's doing,

let's have school uniforms and let's

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have limitations on, on Muslim, uh, art.

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You know, we're in, in, in

schools and these kinds of things.

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And, uh, somehow or another, we

need to find a buffer between our

234

schools and those legislative,

those political impulses.

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I don't know how we do it, but you know,

hopefully over time we figure out a way.

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Andy: I honestly think part of it

is having a resetting with an agenda

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that's around teaching and learning

and being serious about that.

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And part of it is, as the kids

say, they say on the Internet,

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people need to touch grass.

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I mean, some of this is just like,

who the hell has the time for this?

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Right?

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And if you're this spun up about

stuff like asking yourself,

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like, why do you actually care?

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And how much does this matter?

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And I would not say that.

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I think there are things in schools

that are worth like fighting about.

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There's been overreach on the

right and the left and all of that.

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But it does not mean everything is.

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And now people are a point

where everything becomes,

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um becomes a battleground.

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And I think that's and some of it is

like people need to if we cannot have

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politics and particularly education

politics be sort of the local sport,

253

you have to have Other stuff that that

people are into or this just takes over

254

and and the end result is you get this

sort of you get This sort of craziness.

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Jed: We also have this curse of short

term thinking if we look at like the

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fiscal cliff that we're now approaching

Anybody could have seen all the

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way back in 2020 when we were first

passing these things Do we need to pass

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some things to make sure that there

weren't going to be layoffs within?

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Uh, organizations and where there

are incremental things we could do

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maybe around learning loss, but the

just shit ton of money that fell on

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these bureaucracies and these highly

politicized environments, uh, and

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knowing that the money is going to go

away three years later, we could have

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foreseen what was going to happen.

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The, uh, additional staff that were,

uh, that were hired the additional.

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Um, uh, compensation that was offered

to those staff and how when the money

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went away, there was going to be a

trauma imposed upon all public education

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that will probably contribute to

another couple of years of these school

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districts and others being unable to

stay focused on, on learning loss and

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the most important needs of our kids.

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So I don't know what it is about, I don't

know if there's any way this is just.

271

The politics of of of education or is

there a way for us to infuse into The

272

discussion some longer term thinking

so that we avoid unnecessary mistakes.

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Andy: Yeah Well, it's an end up

in the whole the whole thing.

274

It's fascinating just in the sense

that like both I mean, the Trump and

275

Biden COVID policies until recently,

the administration just this week put

276

out some, you know, some new stuff and

they're doubling down on some stuff

277

they've been trying to do, but that was

basically put the money out there and

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let people do whatever they want with it.

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And when you're talking about like,

you know, 190 billion for K 12, I

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think a reasonable person would ask

like, Like, first of all, should

281

some fraction of that actually be for

structural kinds of reform that we need?

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But more than that, if you're going to

put out 190, like, what is the reciprocal

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kinds of things you're going to ask

for, for that, if you're going to invest

284

that, like, then what are the, what

are the asks going to be around policy?

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And both the, the Biden people at

the beginning of the administration

286

and the Trump people seem sort of

similarly disinterested in those kinds

287

of policy questions, and that's a

problem that's coming home to roost now.

288

The debate, best I can tell, you

watched, I mean, to the extent, you

289

know, there are some smart education

people on Twitter, and the debate

290

seems to be whether all the money

was wasted or just some of the money.

291

Um, uh, I'm in camp some, I don't

think it was all wasted, but surely

292

Jed: I'm in camp almost.

293

Andy: Is that the best we can do?

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Jed: I'm in camp almost all.

295

Andy: It's a lot.

296

I mean, I do think some of it hasn't

still hasn't been actually reported

297

well, so we still don't know.

298

Um, that's what's creating the sense.

299

A lot of it's not, you

know, not even spent.

300

A lot of the reporting is bad, but yeah,

a lot of it went to one time things.

301

You saw there's school districts

that they didn't, they had more

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than they knew what to do with.

303

So you were getting sort of

these random acts of bonusing

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teachers and stuff like that.

305

Um, It wasn't plan for the administration.

306

One of the things they did this week

is basically on certain activities.

307

You can spend the money out longer and you

can see what they're trying to do, which

308

is incentivize people to use it on good

stuff in exchange for some flexibility,

309

which is great, but you know, it better,

better late than never, but it is.

310

It is late.

311

Jed: Yeah, I just think that there

are some things that we know are wrong

312

with the way our schools are set up

financially, economically, and we should

313

have those problems out in front of

everyone, such that if there are moments

314

when new resources come available.

315

We've got a general sense of

priorities about what are the

316

things that we need to address.

317

And then, of course, in the

near term moment, the political

318

imperative will probably be to

not fund those longer term things.

319

But at least they make a choice

to, to refuse to, you know, to

320

address those other issues while

they address something else.

321

Andy: Some of that is more

transparency too, right?

322

Jed: Totally.

323

Absolutely.

324

Absolutely.

325

Andy: People, it's a, it's a, it's,

you know, often when you pull on these

326

various social phenomena that people

argue about, you find out people are

327

like, you know, their estimates of

prevalence of things and so forth is

328

wildly off and people's estimates of

education spending are wildly off.

329

And then when you, I mean, there's

ample polling on this, and then when you

330

actually give them accurate data, their

views on education spending actually.

331

change.

332

So there's just a huge problem with just

transparency and sort of shadow boxing.

333

And it's, you know, it's always

an easy play to say schools

334

are underfunded because it

intuitively makes sense to people.

335

And in some cases they certainly

are, but it's usually, you know,

336

more complicated, particularly as you

aggregate up to larger units, like within

337

like a whole state, um, and so forth.

338

And There's just tons of confusion

about this because there's no

339

transparency and then the media echoes

it and or it is presents both sides

340

with like very little empiricism.

341

So, like, the debate goes on

without, like, anyone bothering.

342

So there actually are, like, numbers

and facts here that we can look at.

343

Jed: Then charter schools get presented

as non transparent, which is just so

344

absurd in comparison to what we see

within the public education establishment.

345

I, I often call for us to support policies

that would require school districts

346

to approve budgets down to the school

level and get their audits down to the

347

school level, not based upon FTEs, but

actual dollars spent because so many

348

charter school laws are set up such that.

349

Even if you won't operate multiple

sites, you still have to approve budgets

350

and get audits down to the site level.

351

And when you don't have those kinds of

things, that's what allows Washington, D.

352

C.

353

to suck money away from southeast and

subsidize the schools over in northwest.

354

Or where I taught in south central Los

Angeles to suck the money away from

355

our schools to subsidize the schools

in woodland hills in the west side.

356

So, um, but we don't, we aren't crisp

on what are these foundational needs.

357

And because of that, when moments

of opportunity arise, when a new

358

bill is going to get pushed through

quickly, we don't have the ideas

359

there and we make mistakes yet again.

360

Andy: Yeah, I think, and one thing you're

on to just There's a lot of slippage in

361

that, uh, from district to school level.

362

And some of that is sort of how roles

are coded and it leads to confusion

363

about like administrative costs, but

some of it also there's just slippage.

364

And that's where you see,

you're like, wait a minute,

365

um, this doesn't make sense.

366

And, and, and divisions are.

367

I think in school districts are

trying to do better in some cases

368

there, but it's really opaque.

369

And that's where, you know, there's a lot

of, there's a lot of, uh, confusion in

370

some cases, uh, mischief I should use.

371

Um, I don't use this podcast

much to plug the weather work.

372

I probably should.

373

We have a whole body of

work on school finance.

374

It's on our website.

375

I urge people to look at like, how

do you actually get to transparent,

376

equitable school finance systems?

377

And it's happening in some cool places.

378

We've done a lot of work in Tennessee.

379

And we've got some stuff up about

sort of how that all came together.

380

And, um, you know, which I think to

some people would seem like an unlikely

381

place to have a terrific school finance

overhaul, but they did a great job.

382

Uh, um, yeah.

383

And so I'd encourage people to check that.

384

I do think Finance is gonna be a

big issue, uh, in the next few years

385

because of these macro, uh, conditions.

386

Jed: And I think the transparency down

to the school level is so important

387

because I think school districts can

be so big and it's just impossible

388

to get an intuitive sense if you're a

parent or if you're a community member

389

about What how the district should be

operating but when you can see down to

390

your school level How much money they

have there and how much money is being

391

sucked away or something like that?

392

The other piece too is when it gets

down to unfunded liabilities when it

393

gets down to pensions You know the

thing that drives me crazy, you know in

394

in south los angeles We never had any

of the senior teachers in our school.

395

All the senior teachers

were in the west Right.

396

All the ones that were generating the

pensions and the unfunded liabilities,

397

they never worked in our school.

398

Right?

399

But our school now ends up being stuck

with the equitable share of paying for

400

something that we never benefited from.

401

Andy: Have you seen this thing

in New York on this, Jed?

402

Have you seen the class

size thing in New York?

403

Jed: I've seen the class

size requirement now.

404

What are you referring to?

405

Andy: Which is going to have a similar

effect to what you're talking about.

406

It is basically a massive wealth

transfer out of schools serving poor

407

kids, serving black kids, serving

hispanic kids into like, you know,

408

schools serving more up, more, uh,

economically upmarket New Yorkers.

409

It is crazy.

410

Jed: And

411

Andy: meanwhile, these people can't,

everybody's like, we're for equity.

412

It's like, this is like

a reverse equity play.

413

It's like, it is like Donald Trump's Tax

plan if it were an education plan and

414

suddenly everyone's like struck mute.

415

It's crazy

416

Jed: Well, this is really off topic but

I had a fascinating conversation with

417

people in Florida right now about the new

universal voucher program and How people

418

are topping off their vouchers with their

own private, you know tuition payment.

419

It's giving Many of the private schools

more money now To hire the best teachers

420

and so they're really sucking people

away from charter schools and from

421

traditional public schools because they've

got an ability to pay something that

422

nobody else can and so There are these

decisions that we make that have these

423

kinds of ramifications and we should

be thinking them through more carefully

424

Andy: Yeah, and I know this is

a topic for down the road I know

425

you're very bullish on charters

right now and their growth potential.

426

I I somewhat am but like You can also

see a squeeze play where charters

427

get like you've got these private

programs going very robustly and

428

growing in the very popular parents.

429

You've got the traditional

public schools in some cases.

430

Coming even like a provider of

last resort and then charters get

431

kind of get kind of squeezed there.

432

Jed: Yeah, I wrote this week about the

biggest news in iowa being that there

433

are eight new charter schools that are

set up But what that didn't uh report

434

on is that two years from now The

voucher program which is now restricted

435

to just low income families in iowa

will soon be universal And so where

436

is all the energy going to go toward

the 10th 12th and 15th charter school?

437

Are people going to say forget it's

too complicated to do a charter?

438

Let me open up a bunch of

private schools in Iowa.

439

So I think what you're talking

about is a very real phenomenon.

440

I still remain bullish on charter

schools, but uh, this is a

441

reality we have to contend with.

442

Andy: After Iowa this week, are

you still bullish on democracy?

443

Jed: I hear you want to

talk about higher ed.

444

Andy: We should talk about higher ed,

but um, it just beside one, one of the

445

thought on this, on this fiscal cliff

thing that I do think it's also it like,

446

and this is obviously not the biggest

problem because it's a, it's a rhetorical

447

one and a political one to some extent,

but I do think it also, it just distorts

448

the politics and the, and the finance

about finance and the conversation.

449

Because now you have this situation.

450

These are one time dollars.

451

But like this is so predictable.

452

As soon as they start to wear

down, suddenly you've got everyone

453

screaming about budget cuts.

454

And often the media just sort of

courageously repeats those claims.

455

It's like, no, these were

one time dollars, you know,

456

but you've now baked them in.

457

And so now you're claiming

your budget's being cut.

458

Um, and it just again, it confuses people.

459

It distorts our politics, makes it

that much harder to have a sensible

460

conversation around schools and is sort

of abetted by the lack of transparency.

461

Let's see.

462

And, and again, that's not like the

biggest, that's not a reason to not

463

do one time slugs of money sometimes

are necessary, but it does just,

464

it does just add to this sort of

pervasive, um, uh, pervasive confusion

465

here about like education finance.

466

Jed: Well, I think education finance

is going to come back as a central

467

discussion point because I don't think we

are very far away from the Republicans.

468

In congress starting to become much

more insistent That title one and other

469

dollars can flow to these universal

voucher programs that they have no way

470

of paying for at the state level and

the possible rending of Uh, national

471

policy makers over that issue seems, I

will be surprised if that isn't true.

472

Andy: I don't think they

have the votes for that.

473

I think what you'll see again is this

like phenomenon where you got a lot of

474

moderate Republicans who aren't really

on that on board with school choice.

475

And I just, I don't think

they have the votes.

476

And frankly, given how they run

the place, I don't think they have

477

a majority for very long either.

478

Um, I don't know.

479

I don't know, uh, that you, I,

I, I have a lot of trouble seeing

480

that get through the Senate too.

481

Jed: We'll see,

482

Andy: argue about a lot.

483

We argue about a lot.

484

And it could also get superseded by

other, you know, um, uh, various state

485

policies, you know, and, and so forth.

486

So it's, but I'm, I'm not,

I just think congress even.

487

Trump came in last time saying

he was going to do a big,

488

uh, education choice bill.

489

And we all saw, you

know, that went nowhere.

490

Jed: Well, I tend to

think that money speaks.

491

And we got already eight states that

are on their way to universal vouchers.

492

Uh, probably all said and done

will be between 12 and 15 that

493

we'll get there eventually.

494

And none of them have a way to

pay for these universal vouchers.

495

And I don't think that they're

going to want to raise taxes

496

in their states to pay for it.

497

Or they're going to minimize how much.

498

And so they're going

to turn to Washington.

499

It could very well be.

500

That the republicans from other

states are going to say tough crap

501

to you guys that did it and leave

them hanging my Personal assessment.

502

Well, whatever it could be it could go.

503

Andy: This is interesting You might be

I mean, I think like you could I want

504

to hear more about this because you may

You may be seeing a big sleeper issue

505

Jed: So we'll see, we'll see.

506

But I know you've got this, this higher

ed thing you've been texting me and

507

emailing me about and, uh, and I'm just

curious to hear what your thinking is.

508

I have some of my own ideas, but

I'm not nearly as deep in this area.

509

And we've talked about having a guest

on here in the next couple months too,

510

but what's been, what's been this,

what started your ruminating on this?

511

Andy: Just realizing just like there's

got to be a cheaper way to turn

512

your kids into Marxists than this.

513

That's what's got me, uh, that's

what's got me ruminating on it.

514

Um,

515

I mean, the last few months, I'm not

telling anyone anything they don't,

516

they don't obviously know have been

really rough on higher ed at a time

517

higher ed can, can, can afford it.

518

And it's like, it's like a perfect

storm, people questioning the

519

values of credentials and so forth.

520

And then all the stuff around the

political issues and so forth.

521

And, and And, and, you know, just

that, like, fairly obvious, but

522

well executed trap that the college

presidents walked into on Capitol Hill.

523

Jed: Yeah, I think the loss of, of

standing that our higher ed institutions

524

have seen in the last A few years, but

also there was an article in the wall

525

street journal this morning that really

ties this back to 30 year trends or

526

something there about Again, bringing it

back to dollars and cents what I think

527

starts it all off in a very You know scary

direction is just the unsustainability

528

of how how expensive it's become and when

you have A general recognition that the

529

amount of money that we're spending 300,

000 more or more per kid and send you get

530

an undergraduate degree from a private

school, at least a third of that, if it's

531

going to be even to a state school, right?

532

Is a underlying condition from which all

sorts of other confidence can be lost.

533

Then you feather in, so you got

something that just economically

534

doesn't make any sense.

535

Then you've got the politicization

of, you know, the academies.

536

And, and then you've got, you know, the

latest political challenges and it just

537

seemed like this moment when confidence in

higher ed is evaporating before our eyes.

538

Andy: Yeah.

539

I mean the one that I hear you, the,

I think it's so much in my experience

540

on higher ed is like holding multiple

ideas in your head at the same time.

541

Like college is like expensive.

542

You know, there's some problems.

543

It's also a pretty good idea to go.

544

Um, and I think with the, with the

cost, like it's really expensive.

545

If you're a low income kid with good

grades, it's actually going to be

546

extremely, um, affordable for you.

547

There's a, there's a range

of options and so forth.

548

And like, I worry the cost

conversation is dissuading kids.

549

You should go that we, and it's

almost like we've got this.

550

Like, and this goes to charters, you've

got this, like, infrastructure of schools

551

that are very serious about sending

kids to college, and in some cases are

552

very, very good at it, and then we're

also, like, talking down college at the

553

same time, and I feel like we should,

we, we need to get our story straight,

554

and our story, getting it straight does

mean sometimes holding multiple things.

555

In your head, um, uh, at the, at the same

time, it seemed contradictory, but are

556

all actually going on at the same time.

557

Jed: Yeah.

558

The contradictory things I, I think

about lead back to the late sixties,

559

which is when they first started

creating guaranteed student loans.

560

And then in the end of the Carter years

and early Reagan years, taking the caps

561

off the amount that people could borrow.

562

And in each of those areas, you just see

the inflation just spike up incredibly.

563

Although I saw, I once saw an

analysis of Yale's tuition from like

564

1806 to 1969, and it had not ever

surpassed the rate of inflation.

565

And then 69, when guaranteed

student loans first entered the

566

equation, it's exploded since then.

567

And part of this.

568

Is this the, the, you know, holding

multiple things in your mind at once.

569

One thing is, hey, it was expensive

and there were a lot of kids

570

that we wanted to get to college

who weren't able to get there.

571

We needed to figure out some way to do it.

572

Um, and then on the other side, it's

like, well, hey, if we do the wrong

573

thing, you know, we're going to undermine

the economics of the entire industry.

574

Isn't there some way to handle this?

575

I think that what we find is that

the most politically viable things,

576

as FDR and as LBJ taught us, are

programs where everyone can benefit.

577

And so when everybody gets a guaranteed

student loan, whether you need it or

578

not, now you have just undermined the

economics of the entire industry and

579

things just, you know, get out of hand.

580

Whereas if we've been

able to be more strategic.

581

Narrow the the eligibility of guaranteed

student loans to the lowest, uh income

582

kids or maybe just giving outright

grants Rather than than these than

583

these loans But the problem is that when

people don't see what they're going to

584

get out of it Now you have a program

that doesn't have enough constituents

585

and you can't sustain it over time.

586

So, um,

587

Andy: yeah well, I think like you're

like one of the things that I always

588

found peculiar about higher ed is

all these people who argued that even

589

though there was all this Federal money

and subsidies they would have no Uh,

590

effect on the behavior of the colleges.

591

how they behave, have no effect

on on prices and everything else.

592

And you're like that.

593

If that were true, that would be weird

because that would be like one of the

594

few places where you don't see that.

595

Um, and then you've got these people

like Art Hopman would be a good

596

example as an analyst who kind of would

what he would call bullshit on this.

597

And he kind of got drummed out of

polite higher ed company because of it.

598

And it was like, it just seems

obvious that that is to some extent

599

the case that we should think about.

600

How do you build in counter

incentives to, to, to address that?

601

Um, that's always,

that's always struck me.

602

Um, uh, that's always struck me as

peculiar and college costs have gone

603

up and we don't talk, honestly, in

some cases they've gone up because

604

there's a battle over amenities.

605

There's obviously a battle over prestige.

606

And during the pandemic, something I found

very interesting was people were less

607

concerned often at elite schools that.

608

They didn't care so much about like

disrupted classes online and quality.

609

It was just, do we still get the

degree if you put the time in?

610

And it was like, it made very transparent

what was, what was going on here.

611

And then.

612

Another thing, I think this will be the

episode where Andy plugs Bellwether work.

613

Um, one of our partners, Alex Cortez,

is leading a project we call Admissions,

614

part of our beta, and it's about,

like, essentially this issue that

615

what really matters is less schools

than programs, and we do a terrible

616

job communicating that to kids.

617

And so it matters what you study,

where, not just where you go.

618

And that like, you know, some of these

like really big name brand schools,

619

depending on your major, you may not

actually be setting yourself up for

620

success in at least in economic terms.

621

Um, there's there's intrinsic

reasons, obviously, that

622

people study things as well.

623

Um, but the kids don't even

have this information, right?

624

And so they're not making, you know,

good choices that, you know, the

625

example I hear a lot is like you're, you

know, you're better, you're better off

626

studying, like, from an economic return

standpoint, computer science at a school

627

like UMass Boston, then studying, um,

uh, you know, a whole bunch of humanities

628

majors, um, at really elite schools.

629

And What we're trying to do a bunch

of work on is how do you create better

630

information signaling systems so people

can just make much more informed choices

631

because you should go to college,

like, especially if you're poor.

632

The evidence is very clear.

633

It's like the best social mobility

strategy we have, but you shouldn't

634

just do it as a random draw.

635

You should do it an intentional.

636

Jed: Yeah, there are so many things

that we could just talk about it in

637

terms of, uh, higher ed and, um, this

article in the Wall Street Journal.

638

Andy: What did you think about

the whole Claudine Gay thing?

639

And, you know, Liz McGill, like,

I feel like it was like, It was,

640

it was, they obviously screwed up.

641

People don't want donors

calling the shots though.

642

Although like everybody knows donors

kind of do call the shots in some ways.

643

Like it just seemed like it actually

seemed like a very complicated situation.

644

It just happened to fit into

everybody's culture war priors.

645

Jed: Yeah.

646

I don't think I have anything.

647

You know, very unique or

of my own to say here.

648

It just seems as though it's the hypocrisy

of saying that they're not going to

649

deem something unacceptable in, in

that moment when they have had decades

650

of deeming other things unacceptable.

651

And Um, some people seem to think

that this is a watershed moment and it

652

will lead to more of the universities

adopting a University of Chicago

653

approach where they don't do that any

longer and they really try to create

654

a citadel wherein we can genuinely

share ideas that we find offensive.

655

And others think something

different than that.

656

I don't know enough to know whether or

not this is an actual watershed or not.

657

I think it did at least point

to the degree of the problem.

658

And I think it, it also reveals why

so many Republicans and others are

659

starting to say to their kids, they

don't even want their kids to go there.

660

Um, because the, the Citadel has

become, you know, what it has become.

661

Andy: Yeah, I do think that and

it's interesting watching it.

662

My understanding is early

decision applications at Harvard

663

were, for instance, were way

664

Jed: way down.

665

Andy: Yeah.

666

Yeah.

667

You know, I, I worry it could be

a big moment where we actually

668

start to have a conversation about

what free speech would look like.

669

on campus, which is not, you

know, I do think one aspect is not

670

totally campus is not public square.

671

This is not, you know, the

speaker's corner at Hyde Park.

672

You've got, it's a residential setting.

673

There's a lot.

674

And so it, it, it, you, you need

to be, you need to be careful here.

675

Um, but it could lead to, and obviously.

676

I totally agree with you.

677

I wrote a piece about it.

678

We can put in the show notes like it's

the hypocrisy is what did them in if

679

you're like, yeah, canceling speakers and

disciplining students for all this stuff.

680

And then you're like, well, genocide.

681

I don't know.

682

It depends.

683

Like, that's that's not tenable.

684

Um, but, um, it could also lead

to where they say, you know what,

685

this is the only way to do that.

686

We're going to restrict all this stuff.

687

And so I worry, like, 1 model

is people like, yeah, the

688

University of Chicago has a point.

689

Another model is we're going to like.

690

Actually like just double down on a bunch

of the stuff and just include more stuff

691

under it and you get a more stifling Uh

intellectual climate than than then what

692

we've had in that and that's no good

693

Jed: Yeah, that's so that's a big, you

know, that's an additional problem there

694

I think uh, I thought it was fascinating

in this wall street journal article to

695

see that And I don't know where they got

the data here, but they said that kids in

696

college spend way less time in class And

they spend way less time actually studying

697

and they have way higher grades than

in the past I I wrote one of my little

698

teaser charter photo I put a link but I

didn't put the screenshot like I often do

699

And I had a lot of people I had several

hundred click on that one to find out

700

what it was It was a snapshot of the grade

point average of harvard changing over

701

the last hundred years or something like

that And it's gone from like about a 2.

702

2 average In the 1940s

or something like that.

703

It was up to 3.

704

8, an average GPA of 3.

705

8 in 2022.

706

And I heard that in 2020 or that 221

707

9.

708

Andy: This is an enormous problem.

709

You give a kid a B minus, it's an issue.

710

Um, uh, B plus is, it can be an issue.

711

Um, And I think it creates a problem.

712

It creates a problem.

713

It creates, there's no differentiation,

which reinforces this problem.

714

So then people just want to

go to brand name schools.

715

Um, if everyone, you know, and I forget

the exact statistic, it's online, but

716

like, like the overwhelming number of kids

at Harvard have like over a three, five.

717

And it means as an employer, you

have to use performance tasks.

718

Cause like where people go to

school tells you nothing about

719

what they're actually able to do.

720

And you get a lot of people who've

gone to fancy schools and literally

721

cannot write a five paragraph essay.

722

Right.

723

That makes any sense.

724

Um, and, uh, you know, because they

all along, they've been able to sort

725

of evade that in different ways.

726

Um, and so it furthers the problem,

because if there's no differentiation,

727

then these other sort of cruder.

728

mechanisms become the signals,

and they're often not.

729

They're often not good.

730

And so I do think that's, um,

uh, that's a real problem.

731

Uh, do we have to?

732

I mean, you can barely trust resumes.

733

You can't trust grades.

734

You have to actually

make potential employees.

735

Do tasks to see what they're actually

able to do in a real situation.

736

Jed: What do you think about you know,

737

Andy: I mean and i'll say just to

be just to be real Like you get

738

stuff where you got people who

like out of really elite schools.

739

They can't move decimals around

properly They can't convert decimals

740

to percents and vice versa Like I

mean, it's not like everybody needs to

741

be able to do calculus or something.

742

This is you know, like Fairly stuff that

you would expect somebody, you know,

743

with a degree like that to be able to do.

744

And it's clear that you've got this

choose your own adventure, uh, approach

745

to higher ed coupled with, um, uh, the

grade inflation you're talking about.

746

And, and so the, the, the, the

signaling effect is all distorted.

747

Jed: What do you think about

the SAT optional stuff?

748

Is that a policy that is long, that

will long last, or will we think

749

of that as defunding the police and

going back on it in a few years?

750

Andy: I thought it was interesting

as MIT walked it back pretty fast.

751

Yeah, I saw that.

752

Yep.

753

I thought that was interesting.

754

You know, I mean, I'm sympathetic.

755

I feel like this is the, like, the

problem is if you're getting 40, 000

756

applications, it becomes an issue.

757

I do think there's kids

who simply don't test well.

758

Um, and, and, and so you do

need to have alternate ways.

759

But that's at the individual level.

760

At the aggregate level, the SAT really

does tell you something, and it's a

761

really useful tool, contrary to all

the rhetoric, for social mobility,

762

because it helps you identify kids,

uh, who are really high promise.

763

If you dig into the data, if you want

to be depressed, dig into the data

764

on the SAT and score performance.

765

They publish all that.

766

I don't make a big deal of

it, but it's on their, it's on

767

the college board's website.

768

And what you see is like that,

you want to see structural

769

inequality, you see it in action.

770

Um, Uh, in terms of numbers of kids

who are performing at different levels.

771

And I think some people, if you're a

person who has sort of a, you know,

772

a set of beliefs about people that I

would consider pernicious, then you

773

look at that and you're like, see,

this shows what I've been saying.

774

But I think for most of us, you

look at this, you're like, yeah,

775

this is why I come to work, right?

776

This is, this is like, this is

a huge, this seems solvable.

777

But it's why we need to

provide much better education

778

opportunities, much more support.

779

And there's some evidence

of that, even with the SAT.

780

You know, Jeb Bush, when he, um,

in Florida made, uh, SAT prep

781

universal and you saw some benefits.

782

Um, there's things, there's, there's

things we can, there's things we can do.

783

So I, I have sort of

mixed feelings about it.

784

And as a practical matter, I worry

it makes an opaque system even more

785

opaque because you hear kids who

786

don't know if I should submit it.

787

And Like that's a problem if kids don't

even understand the signaling effect

788

because like a 1300 is a pretty good sat

score Um, but but and so it's creating

789

these weird But should you submit it

because it may be only kids with like

790

over 1400 and so it creates a distortion

effect there And you can confusion and

791

then you know also, I just think and

this is true of k12 test too if you

792

get rid of objective measures you are

essentially Coming out for some form

793

of aristocracy because all the other

stuff, the affluent people can game it.

794

Right.

795

Yeah.

796

Um, and one of the things, you

know, you see there's all this pay

797

to play stuff that people can do.

798

It makes it hard if your

kids are applying to college.

799

Cause like, say your kid had an

article published, like that's cool.

800

But now college is like, Oh,

I had an article published.

801

It's probably like, you

know, some pay to play thing.

802

Right.

803

And so it's almost like hard

to differentiate yourself.

804

And if we get rid of this stuff, you'll

just see more and more of that and rich

805

people will be able to like package

their kids up in very particular ways.

806

Um, for college.

807

So, I mean, in general, I think these

these measures actually help in terms

808

of equity and social mobility, even if

like, we need to at the individual level.

809

think about them in, in, in creative ways.

810

Jed: Yeah.

811

As far as selective admissions go,

I think I'm pretty far out on the

812

progressive wing here as far as K 12 goes.

813

I don't believe that a public

school should be able to screen out

814

kids using selective admissions.

815

We know screen out by race and are along

lines of race and low income status.

816

But when it comes to higher ed, I feel

like you've gotten to be an adult.

817

You've hit adult status.

818

And something different kicks in then, and

so I just feel like the loss of, of SAT is

819

a profound one, and, uh, I would hope that

we would find a way to, to get it back.

820

All that said, then you have the Supreme

Court come in and say that there shall

821

be no racial discrimination at, uh,

college, and you can imagine being the

822

college administrator saying, wait a

second, I'm not going to be able to

823

admit who I want to into this class and

make the mixed group of folks I want

824

to because, uh, people do different,

do well differently by race on SAT.

825

Oh, get rid of SAT so I can

at least admit who I want.

826

So, there are all sorts of, uh,

827

Andy: And the court said you can, but they

said you can't discriminate based on race.

828

But you can include race in your

essay, which like that was like one

829

line in a Supreme Court decision

that was just an incredible

830

boon to one particular industry.

831

Um, the college essay writing business.

832

Jed: And I'm not, I I'd like to go

back and look at it more deeply.

833

You probably know more about this.

834

I know that there's low income, high

income disparities in SAT performance,

835

but I also think that there are racial,

um, disparities that don't align perfectly

836

with income status and ones that align

with the unfairness that's been cooked

837

into the American experience going back

838

me, it it seems critically important that

we keep to your point that we keep the S.

839

A.

840

T.

841

out and other objective measures out

there so we can see whether or not we're

842

making progress on these historical

issues, um, while still giving the

843

administrators enough flexibility

that they can use the tool as they see

844

fit to, you know, admit, um, across

a range of demographic realities.

845

Andy: And I think the data,

you can't shy away from it.

846

You have to look at it and be like,

okay, and I look at, like, you know,

847

I look at the performance on that.

848

That doesn't none of that seems like

an immutable fact of life to me.

849

That seems like something we could change

if we gave more kids access to good

850

educational experiences and so forth.

851

Again, that's like for me,

that's why I come to work.

852

Um, I mentioned that your

K 12 point is interesting.

853

I'm probably in a different, I don't

have a big problem with selective.

854

I mean, obviously I don't think you can't

have schools that are selective admissions

855

on on race and things like that.

856

But like, I have no trouble with thematic

schools, stem schools, test admission,

857

public schools, as long as there's a range

of options, you don't want to go to them.

858

What you saw some cities go to a while

ago where you had like the general

859

ed high schools for everybody else.

860

And then the selective

schools that doesn't work.

861

But as long as I think like you

like our project, if you care about

862

public education, it has to be, and

this is why I like charter schools.

863

It has to be, how do you create the

most diverse array of options you can.

864

So people want to be part of the public

system and feel bound up in that.

865

That's why I feel like homeschool kids

should be able to come and play sports.

866

Like, I feel like you want to You want

to get as many people as you can involved

867

in this project, if you want it to be

politically, uh, sustainable over time.

868

And that's why I've been, the culture

war stuff is so dismaying to me,

869

because it's like, it's a 50 50 country.

870

And so why are you trying to do stuff

that's going to make your schools

871

unattractive to 50 percent of the people?

872

That's crazy.

873

Um, you should be trying to figure out

how do you make them attractive to as

874

many people as possible Because that's

what we need if we care about public debt

875

Jed: Well, this is one that would be good

to have just a debate on and let's get

876

some other people around the table on

this I think that the selective emissions

877

issue is is a uh is a complicated one.

878

I've I I think that From the reform

world, from the charter school

879

world, we should make it our enemy.

880

Uh, the, the, the red lines that

have been drawn across the public

881

education landscape, and those

red lines consist of many things.

882

Attendance boundaries, school

district boundaries, but yes,

883

selective admissions as well.

884

And we cannot erase attendance boundaries

and school district boundaries quickly.

885

If you do, it's going to

be total freaking chaos.

886

In the same way that you

can't get rid of selective

887

admissions, it'll be total chaos.

888

But what we need to do is grow

the supply of great schools.

889

And by the way, schools that are

incredibly academically rigorous and put

890

these selective admissions magnets to

test, we can actually do better than your

891

schools without having to screen kids out.

892

Andy: Absolutely.

893

I'm so with you on the supply side thing.

894

And then a lot of these schools,

some of them are great, but some of

895

them you're, you're a little curious

about what's actually going on.

896

Jed: It just kills me.

897

We have millions of

families across the country.

898

I think that's not an exaggeration

At least hundreds of thousands

899

who want their high school kids to

go to more academically rigorous

900

programs And they're being told no

that is that is is not pardonable.

901

That is

902

Andy: And that is, that move is, I

mean, when we talk about like, like

903

public education and the risks,

like so many of the calls are coming

904

from like, right inside the house.

905

And that's a problem.

906

We need to like, talk about, um,

these things that are just completely

907

counterproductive to making.

908

public ed broadly appealing.

909

I do want to, I'm with you on the

boundaries, by the way, the attendance

910

zones and school boundaries.

911

You have to do that carefully, uh, for

obvious political reasons and so forth.

912

We are, um, we've got a project on that.

913

We've been trying to get funded and

it is really difficult to get funders

914

who want to actually take that on.

915

And it's So interesting, given

everybody knows the pernicious history

916

of a lot of these things and, and,

and, and attendance zones and in many

917

cases, school district boundaries,

there are ways to do better on this.

918

Um, uh, particularly some long

term strategies and so forth,

919

and we've got a project to try to

really bring people together across

920

lines of difference to do that.

921

And it's a sad sort of

sign of the times just.

922

People are like, and I don't want to

be in a room with with those people.

923

That's coming from the left a lot.

924

Um, and it's like, you know,

there's a real opportunity, uh,

925

to do things differently there.

926

But it's like, one of these things is

just caught up to this, uh, caught up

927

in this sort of polarization and sort of

unwillingness to everybody talks about

928

working across lines of difference.

929

Nobody actually Few people seem

to actually really want to do it.

930

Jed: Well, we were talking earlier

about the specifics related to

931

public school finance, and I

throw this into the same category.

932

This is the public education DNA that

we have been handed, and we need to

933

do genetic engineering of our public

education system if we're really going to

934

come up with something that generates a

far larger number of fantastic schools.

935

That who's where educational

opportunity is allocated much

936

more fairly than it is today.

937

And the fact that people would shy

away from that, I find fascinating.

938

Um, and living in California, I think

the, uh, the, the affluent areas that

939

have basically walled themselves off with

their attendance boundaries and their

940

school district boundaries and their

local money and all that kind of stuff.

941

And then, and then, you know,

virtue projecting that they have

942

all these kinds of egalitarian

left leaning, uh, orientations.

943

Is fundamentally not reconcilable and

I don't think the way that we win this

944

argument as Chris Stewart, you know

has Coached me on many occasions is by

945

shaming people or being you know Yelling

at people or saying that you know,

946

whatever we've we've got it all figured

out and they don't but I also feel like

947

We've got to grind people down over a

longer period of time And we have to

948

also be able to get out of this idea

that public education is a zero sum game

949

There are ways for us to grow this pie

as we cut the pie more fairly But we

950

need to start having the conversations

and the fact that you couldn't get

951

funders on that critical issue Boy,

we got some more things to talk about.

952

Andy: Oh, we got, yeah, well we should

do, at some point we should do an episode

953

on philanthropy, maybe have, you know,

we could maybe get, like, a program

954

officer who's willing to, like, we could,

like, you know, distort their voice.

955

Um, a lot of them, it seems like they

feel like they're being held hostage.

956

Um, the I think there's also ways you,

you, you, you know, you can't do chaos,

957

but like, and you have to be careful.

958

You have to be sensitive to like, for

most people, the most valuable asset

959

they have is their, is their house.

960

But they're, to your

point, it's not zero sum.

961

And there are ways to

address this over time.

962

That don't, like, involve making, like,

you know, these, these, these head on runs

963

at, um, uh, you know, at, at boundaries

and residential patterns and so forth,

964

but change things over time so that it

looks different, there's more opportunity,

965

and nobody, you know, people don't

have to either take a reel or what they

966

will perceive would be, would be a hit.

967

There are ways through this, it's

just a question of sort of, you know,

968

getting people together and then

navigating, um, some complicated

969

education politics, because this one

doesn't graft cleanly left right.

970

But everything is through a

left right lens right now.

971

Jed: I think things like having an

expectation that all public schools

972

will reserve 5 percent of the spaces

in their school for those that reside

973

outside the attendance boundary.

974

And if there are more people

that apply, that there will be a

975

lottery to determine who gets in.

976

And we have some kind of weighting

so that low income kids would

977

have some statistical advantage.

978

Not a guarantee, but Some

minor advantage in that modern,

979

um, and then we just tried a

980

Andy: very little nudges.

981

You could do zoning rules, all sorts of

stuff that would be not super perceptible,

982

but starts to put us on a different path.

983

Jed: So, but it's and then you

increase it slowly from 5 percent to 5.

984

5 percent to 6 percent to 6.

985

But also, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not

naive about just how radioactive this is.

986

It was just sobering to

watch in Connecticut.

987

You know, Connecticut is

just a fascinating state.

988

I mean, it's smaller than L.

989

A.

990

U.

991

S.

992

D.

993

And it's 200 different school

districts and all of the all

994

of the attendance boundaries.

995

And that's just so segregated

by race and by income status.

996

And, you know, the state has tried

to create an inter district transfer

997

program where kids could get into some

of these other schools and Every time

998

some community presents to their local

folks, Hey, let's let some of these

999

outside kids in even when they are have

declining enrollment and they don't and

00:53:50,715 --> 00:53:52,125

they can't even fill their own schools.

00:53:52,225 --> 00:53:56,025

They still have large numbers of

parents that will show up and just,

00:53:56,455 --> 00:54:00,605

you know, grandstand about how what

a terrible idea it is to let these

00:54:00,605 --> 00:54:02,065

outside kids into their schools.

00:54:02,135 --> 00:54:04,685

Andy: And there's usually parents

that have that sign on their lawn

00:54:04,695 --> 00:54:06,405

about how they like love everyone.

00:54:06,615 --> 00:54:11,735

Water is water or whatever, you know,

um, yeah, that's totally, um, uh, but

00:54:11,735 --> 00:54:13,115

some of that I think is perception.

00:54:13,145 --> 00:54:16,725

And again, like to my, my sort of view

on this is, it's as if you're going

00:54:16,725 --> 00:54:18,395

to walk across the country, right?

00:54:18,584 --> 00:54:22,225

If your compass is a little off,

you're not going to notice it

00:54:22,265 --> 00:54:23,784

early in your journey, right?

00:54:24,210 --> 00:54:26,820

But when you get out the other side of the

country, and you don't end up where you

00:54:26,820 --> 00:54:30,310

thought, and you're like way off, you're

like, oh, okay, wow, you know, I meant to

00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:34,300

walk to San Francisco, and now I'm in, you

know, you know, I'm in, I'm in Northern

00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:37,410

California, you know, way Northern

California, or I'm in, you know, L.

00:54:37,410 --> 00:54:37,520

A.

00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:38,180

or whatever.

00:54:38,340 --> 00:54:42,110

Um, that's, you know, that's

what we have to do here.

00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,448

You're not, because people do have

these perceptions, we can have a big

00:54:45,448 --> 00:54:47,490

argument with them about whether or

not they're wrong, or we can just

00:54:47,490 --> 00:54:51,910

put in place stuff that gradually,

Um, uh, changes, changes that in ways

00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:53,740

that isn't immediately perceptible.

00:54:53,740 --> 00:54:57,080

you're like, wow, you believe it used

00:54:57,090 --> 00:54:59,070

to, it used to look like, absolutely.

00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:03,470

Um, structural, this is structural.

00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:07,000

And yet the people who are most up

in arms about structural issues.

00:55:07,435 --> 00:55:11,275

And our society seem least interested

in actually taking this one on

00:55:11,525 --> 00:55:14,845

that's a big question, you know

for ed politics about why that is

00:55:15,325 --> 00:55:16,105

Jed: I'd love to come back.

00:55:16,144 --> 00:55:19,674

I'd love to do a topic or a whole episode

on this one Hey, we're we're near the

00:55:19,675 --> 00:55:25,324

end of an hour here Um, and we've we've

meandered away from higher ed but can

00:55:25,324 --> 00:55:27,985

I ask you just one last question on

higher ed which is and maybe it's just

00:55:27,985 --> 00:55:33,290

a segue into our next conversation, but

Um, a lot of new rhetoric around trade

00:55:33,290 --> 00:55:38,410

schools and and and how trade schools

are now the better alternative to uh, to

00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:44,019

colleges uh, and I was wondering if you

had any, you know first reactions to Uh,

00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:47,869

I mean, I was working out for a long time,

but it's it's accelerating right now.

00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:49,049

So you have any thoughts?

00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,770

Andy: Yeah, my first reaction is

I was actually concerned about you

00:55:51,780 --> 00:55:54,950

because you sent me a text It's like

here's this thing I saw on tiktok.

00:55:54,990 --> 00:55:56,220

What do you think was about this?

00:55:56,825 --> 00:56:01,055

Oh, I was actually alarmed that you'd

been kidnapped by a gang of teenage girls.

00:56:01,175 --> 00:56:07,415

And so I, uh, uh, so I, I was concerned,

but once I realized that you had actually

00:56:07,425 --> 00:56:10,364

sent it to me, um, yeah, look, I think

it goes back to what we talked about.

00:56:10,514 --> 00:56:13,364

Programs matter, not necessarily degrees.

00:56:13,365 --> 00:56:18,125

And there are certainly some

degrees, uh, that aren't, from an

00:56:18,125 --> 00:56:20,705

economic standpoint, as useful.

00:56:22,045 --> 00:56:25,405

As as many trade opportunities,

there's also a whole bunch of

00:56:25,405 --> 00:56:28,165

credentialing programs in the

trades that aren't valuable.

00:56:28,365 --> 00:56:28,855

It's again.

00:56:28,855 --> 00:56:30,775

It's about information and signaling.

00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,280

You know, you've had this like rush

to have like industry recognized

00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,230

credentials, which in some cases

are great, but in some cases are not

00:56:38,310 --> 00:56:40,550

actually good opportunities for kids.

00:56:40,550 --> 00:56:41,630

They're not done well.

00:56:41,979 --> 00:56:44,029

Um, they're mismatched

with the labor market.

00:56:44,030 --> 00:56:45,159

They're low quality, whatever.

00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:48,430

Um, and I think it's, it's one of these

things where we keep talking about the

00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,709

labels rather than what's underneath it.

00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:52,879

And it's the specific programs.

00:56:52,989 --> 00:56:53,709

That's what matters.

00:56:53,709 --> 00:56:54,629

But yeah, it can be great.

00:56:54,879 --> 00:56:59,565

And then also exposing kids To

what do they want to do, right?

00:56:59,985 --> 00:57:03,865

I mean, you have to, people have

to understand, okay, like if you

00:57:03,885 --> 00:57:07,154

want to work in HVAC, that can,

you can make money doing that.

00:57:07,154 --> 00:57:09,534

It's a great career, but you

will be like on your hands and

00:57:09,534 --> 00:57:11,414

knees in small spaces a lot.

00:57:11,415 --> 00:57:12,064

You'll be moving.

00:57:12,085 --> 00:57:14,015

That is a physically demanding job.

00:57:14,054 --> 00:57:18,645

And, you know, Doing a work like that when

you're 18 doing work like that when you're

00:57:18,645 --> 00:57:23,635

50 or two different things, helping kids

understand like these different choices.

00:57:23,855 --> 00:57:27,295

We do a terrible job on helping them

understand the experience of different

00:57:27,295 --> 00:57:30,394

roles, and we do a terrible job and

helping them understand the trade offs.

00:57:31,095 --> 00:57:32,834

Both those seem very solvable.

00:57:33,075 --> 00:57:33,894

Um, yeah.

00:57:34,225 --> 00:57:38,425

You know, so, so I, yeah, so I

like I find that the whole sort

00:57:38,425 --> 00:57:41,495

of college versus career debate a

little odd because it's kind of both.

00:57:41,505 --> 00:57:46,895

It depends on the kid and it depends on

choice in making an informed choice and

00:57:46,954 --> 00:57:51,305

most importantly, I think it depends

on being able to make a second choice

00:57:51,334 --> 00:57:52,184

because that's where the power is.

00:57:52,424 --> 00:57:56,565

The thing that worries me is the

kid who gets put on a path and

00:57:56,565 --> 00:57:59,135

then when they're 19 or 20, it's

hard for them to get off of it.

00:57:59,155 --> 00:57:59,955

That's no good.

00:57:59,955 --> 00:57:59,969

Yeah.

00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,530

Because you're not good

at making decisions.

00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,660

Well, most some people are, but

most of us are not good at making

00:58:05,660 --> 00:58:06,680

decisions when they're that age.

00:58:06,690 --> 00:58:07,420

I certainly wasn't.

00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:09,130

Jed: Yeah, yeah.

00:58:09,130 --> 00:58:13,500

Well, that was certainly Larry

Rosenstock's mantra that, uh, premature

00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:17,710

specialization, encouraging premature

specialization in teenagers is just

00:58:17,710 --> 00:58:19,369

a really counterproductive thing.

00:58:19,769 --> 00:58:24,720

Um, and, uh, and yet you have

colleges that are originally set

00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,810

up to like lean against premature

specialization, liberal arts and whatever.

00:58:29,075 --> 00:58:30,655

That are losing credibility.

00:58:30,685 --> 00:58:34,625

And so as they lose credibility

for other reasons, the credibility

00:58:34,665 --> 00:58:39,884

of, of, um, avoiding premature

specialization is also lost and

00:58:39,885 --> 00:58:43,225

Andy: we're going to later this year

that I think you'll find interesting.

00:58:43,285 --> 00:58:45,704

Um, some work we're doing because

I'm, I'm extremely interested

00:58:45,704 --> 00:58:47,495

in it and this idea of like.

00:58:48,695 --> 00:58:50,515

That's like Larry, you know, and

you know, I'm a huge Larry fan.

00:58:50,515 --> 00:58:52,565

He and I have talked about,

I totally agree with him.

00:58:53,045 --> 00:58:57,245

Um, that, you know, the only, the only,

and the push right now is to make this

00:58:57,255 --> 00:59:00,904

younger and like the only people who

are worse about making decisions than

00:59:00,905 --> 00:59:02,585

18 year olds are like 16 year olds.

00:59:02,925 --> 00:59:08,415

And so you can expose people to stuff

and that's really important, but putting

00:59:08,415 --> 00:59:12,245

people on these paths, I just think you

want to, there comes a point when you're

00:59:12,245 --> 00:59:14,755

18, you have to make some serious choices.

00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,120

But we want to try to push that off

and push off the ability not to make

00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:24,279

another choice as as far as we can uh,

yeah the path Makes me uncomfortable

00:59:24,290 --> 00:59:26,200

for that reason because I don't want

I don't want you on a path I want

00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,079

you like on a trampoline where you

can bounce into some different stuff.

00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,129

Do you figure out you

know, what sticks for you?

00:59:31,729 --> 00:59:35,089

Jed: Yeah, well about to have

two kids in in college myself.

00:59:35,090 --> 00:59:43,780

I I perhaps naively or like a like a

uh, an old dog think that College should

00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:48,540

be a place where we grapple with the

difficulties of being a person and,

00:59:48,850 --> 00:59:53,270

and I used to believe, and I still

cling to this idea, that a university

00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,390

would be a great place, a better place

to learn those things than TikTok is.

00:59:58,870 --> 01:00:02,089

And, uh, we'll see whether

it turns out that way or not.

01:00:02,885 --> 01:00:05,435

Um as always and it has

been a phenomenal company.

01:00:05,445 --> 01:00:08,085

We've been all over the place I think

01:00:08,335 --> 01:00:09,175

Andy: I think we should do jet.

01:00:09,175 --> 01:00:11,835

We'll have a special episode later

this year We can do the empty nest

01:00:11,845 --> 01:00:15,905

issue, uh edition and it'll just be

like 45 minutes of you and me sobbing

01:00:19,115 --> 01:00:19,735

Jed: I like it.

01:00:19,845 --> 01:00:20,814

I like it.

01:00:20,815 --> 01:00:22,175

Any always fun to talk to you.

01:00:22,315 --> 01:00:22,625

Look forward.

01:00:23,475 --> 01:00:24,035

Andy: I'll see you soon.

01:00:24,035 --> 01:00:24,335

Jed.

01:00:24,745 --> 01:00:25,105

Okay.

01:00:25,215 --> 01:00:25,485

Bye.

01:00:25,915 --> 01:00:26,025

Bye