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In this episode...

How to Bring Faith Into Early Career Development With Daniel Simon

https://faithfulontheclock.com/how-to-bring-faith-into-early-career-development-with-daniel-simon

Intro teaser paragraph:

In Episode 155, leadership coach and career advisor Dan Simon shares how to support young people as they navigate early career choices and development.

Timestamps:

[00:04] - Intro

[00:39] - Dan’s bio and background

[03:50] - What drew Dan into helping young people align their faith and career and why it matters

[06:36] - What we can do to support young people in the awkward place of being asked to choose a career so early

[10:48] - Testing careers as a lived, felt experience rather than just through logistical planning

[14:25] - Differentiating between choosing a career because it is familiar or safe and choosing a career because it’s truly a calling; the importance of obeying God before anyone else

[24:09] - How to ensure we pay attention to both our mission and other things that offer joy

[29:11] - Building your life first and work second; taking a big-picture approach to career assessment and seeing how other elements like family might influence results

[33:56] - The difference between kids who know what they want and those who have fallen through the cracks; how to support kids with gaps

[45:12] - Top recommendations for leaders and young people

[53:04] - Not shying away from pain or scars and the ability to be authentic or even build from mistakes

[58:05] - How young people (and others) can approach church to find real support when they are trying to develop or are lost

[01:01:42] - Closing the gap between leaders and those who need them

[01:04:41] - How to connect with Dan

[01:06:05] - Prayer

[01:07:15] - Outro/What’s coming up next

Key takeaways:

• Calling and career are not always the same thing, and they don't have to be. Paul made tents. Jesus spent three decades as a carpenter. What puts food on the table can be separate from what God has purposed for you — and both matter.
• The best time to start having conversations about calling with young people is the late middle to early high school transition, before decisions carry real cost. Shadowing, informational interviews, and career assessments are not just practical tools — they are forms of prayerful discernment in action.
• Familiar is not the same as called. Just because a path is visible, safe, or expected by the people who love you does not mean it is yours. Obeying God first actually honors your parents more than compliance does.
• The difficulty of a path can be a signal, not a warning. If what you are pursuing is genuinely kingdom work, expect resistance. Joseph's 40 years, Jonah's detour, Daniel's trials — obedience was never promised to be smooth.
• Your scars are not disqualifiers. They are credentials. The specific pain you have been through is often the exact foundation God intends to use — for a business, a ministry, a single conversation with someone who needs to hear that you survived it.
• Connection is the whole game, whether you are a leader, a parent, a mentor, or a young person trying to find your footing. The kids don't care how much you know until they know how much you care — and that does not change when they become adults.

• Home - Dan Simon Solutions

CTAs:

• If you have a young person in your life — your child, a student, a kid at your church — ask them one question this week: What lights you up? Then just listen. Let them talk and pay attention to when they sit up straight.
• Do the backwards design for yourself. Where do you want to be in 15 years — not just professionally, but as a whole person? Then work backwards. What has to be true in 10 years, in 5, and what is one thing you can do starting now to get on that path?

What’s coming up next:

Episode 156 of Faithful on the Clock reveals why joy is the most critical job skill any of us can bring to the table.

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[Thibodeaux]

Good morning, afternoon, or evening, listeners. You’ve found yourself another episode of Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where all the pencils get sharpened to get your faith and work aligned. I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and in today’s episode, we’re linking to our previous episode around work and parenting. We’ll chat with guest Dan Simon about how and why young people need to prepare early for the calling God gives them, and what we can do to help them understand and embrace that calling. Let’s get started.

[Thibodeaux]

Hello everybody, and welcome to Faithful on the Clock. I'm your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and I'm here today with speaker Daniel Simon. Dan is the founder of Dan Simon Solutions, where he offers leadership and team coaching, as well as college and career advising. And I brought Daniel on the show today because he and I share a belief that good leadership — and building a life with a future that's genuinely aligned with a God-given calling — that has to start relatively early. So, today, he's going to share his expertise on how we can do that successfully, and how it's all supported in Scripture. So, Daniel, thank you so much for being on the show.

[Simon]

Thank you for having me, Wanda. I really enjoyed our pre-conversation, and I think we initially thought we had a little alignment. By the end, we were like, we are a lot aligned. So, just really, really excited to have the conversation today.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, well, I'm very excited for what you are about to share with my listeners. I know you've got a lot of expertise that they will find useful, but before we really get started, I always give my guests just a chance to introduce themselves and share a little bit about their background. So, whatever you'd care to share, let our listeners know who you are.

[Simon]

Okay, great. Boy, it's always hard to kind of consolidate. I'm always afraid I'm going to miss something, but I say first and foremost, married to Linda for over 30 years, six adult children, eight grandchildren, number nine on the way. We are really blessed by the opportunities God has given us, not just as a family, but certainly for me professionally as well. The majority of my career has been in educational leadership, as I served as a principal, a director, and a superintendent for the majority of my 32 years in education. I started as a classroom teacher. In my retirement — which took me three go-rounds of retirement — I have now settled into coaching, consulting, speaking, and training. I've worked primarily in the space of college and career advising by adding also a faith-based component of calling, and my work there has been primarily focused on individuals, but also individuals in a — well, more recently — a military-connected space. I have a son who serves in the military, a son-in-law. I have been drawn to the military community in the last half a decade. That is where I believe God has really placed me, and so, I've done work in the last couple of years with Gold Star families, Ranger institutions that support the families. God is really growing that, and so, through all that, the work that I do just continues to evolve. It's all centered around this idea of identifying purpose, identifying a calling, aligning with God's will for your life — and that's just kind of what brought us together today, was the opportunity to talk about that.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, well, it sounds like the alignment of the faith and the career work that you're doing with young people has evolved over time, as you said. But can you give me a little bit of an idea — why do you think that has drawn you to that space? Like, why is it so important that we even align God and faith and our career? How does that matter for you?

[Simon]

Yeah, it's a great question. It's kind of my why, right? I mean, as I look back in my own journey and I look at my children's journeys and the conversations that we had growing up — even before I was specifically working in this space — there's always that conversation about what do you do because you just love to do it, right? And what do you — and just, fulfillment and service and giving unto others, right, versus what puts food on the table and what pays the mortgage. I think there's always been this sense that we put so much pressure on kids very early on to be like, it's got to be about making money, right? It's got to be about having — beyond what you need, but getting everything that you want. And so, people spend decades of their life searching for that, trying to find what that is. It ultimately seems to be a place where the money doesn't matter anymore, and they're doing something that's really fulfilling to them, and they look back and say, if I only would have discovered this so many years ago, my life would be so different, right? All those years of stress and anxiety, and just constantly go, go, go might not have been that way had I just kind of followed this lead from early, early on. So for me, it's been about — kids get that pressure not only from their parents but also from social media and culture. And so, I found that the best place to start having those conversations with kids is in that late middle to early high school transition time, because that's when decisions start to matter. And so, we'll talk a little bit later about what I think some of those decisions are and what I encourage students to do. It's just, to me, it’s always about what's my why. Go back to that, what’s my why? What drives me, what keeps me up at night thinking about, what dreams do I have? They don't always align. Sometimes, you get to do what you love and make a living doing it, and sometimes, they don't coexist, but they are still both important. And we can't have one without the other or our lives will be — we just won't be satisfied.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. Well, one thing as you’re talking that keeps coming to mind is that, I know from my experience, when I was going through college, I was kind of lucky in that I kind of knew the direction that I wanted to go. But I know that is not the case for a lot of people, and they're just like, well, maybe I'll go and take my first year of college and just do a couple of classes — taste the rainbow, as it were. But when you're talking about all this pressure, I'm kind of wondering if you can speak a little bit to that weird, awkward place where we're telling people that they have to know, like they have to pick so early, and yet everything that we know about development at that stage — like, they're not ready. Not really. And so, and then you add the faith component on top of that, where they're still maturing there. So, I'm wondering if you can just kind of give your thoughts on that, and like, what can we do to support that? And maybe, maybe where are we going wrong or right in that area?

[Simon]

Yeah, it's a great question, because I do think there are some who do know early on, right? And they just have that ability to say, again, this is just where I've always felt — I just dream about being a surgeon, I dream about being a lawyer, I dream about — it's not about the money per se, it's about this is just the environment I've surrounded myself in, and I absolutely love it. The problem, to your point, Wanda, is that the question often is, when do we start doing things that kind of verify or validate that for us, right? So, the idea — I'll ask kids all the time, you know, what do you want to be as an initial conversation, what are you thinking about. And then, a lot of times, it’s I don't really know. And then the ones who do know — I'll always ask them, where did that come from? And they'll give me maybe a little bit of an idea. Oh, my dad does, or my uncle, or it sounds really cool, or they make a lot of money, right? Those kinds of things, which always gives me an inside view of where they're coming from, what has driven them to this point. And so, then I'll always ask, so what have you actually done in that field, even as a freshman or a sophomore in high school? What have you actually done to actually verify that you do enjoy that? And that's when you start hearing the crickets, right, because so often, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm going to do in four years when I graduate. I'll start that and I'll figure out if that's what I like. So, one of the earliest things that I do — right after we do prayerful consideration and thinking about what is it that has God kind of put on your heart, right, that you, again, you love to do and have a real talent at, that you’re really good at, right? — is, have you ever had a conversation with someone who does that for a living and talked to them about the path that it took to get there? Sometimes, that conversation alone is where a kid goes, wait, what? I have to do how many years of school? And I have to invest how much of my time? So, that right there. But even if they’re past that, then you get to the point of, have you ever shadowed someone for a morning, an afternoon, a whole day, a weekend, who does that work? So that you can walk away from that either being, that was the most exhilarating, exciting thing, I can't wait to do that — or, wow, I'm really glad I did that, because I want nothing to do with that now. I'm going to have to find another direction. All too often, they figure that out freshman year, sophomore year of college, and you're already invested how much money, how much time, right? And you haven't had a plan to pivot. So, the earlier the experiences and the conversations happen, the greater there is opportunity for clarity — both of what you are thinking about, but also what you can cross off the list. And that's, by the way, that’s only even discussing college, because there's the whole other conversation about those that don't feel called to college, and what that looks like as well.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, well, what I really hear you saying — and you can correct me if I'm wrong — really, this idea of having that lived, felt experience. You go out and you feel what it is like to go do that thing. And I think maybe some of the issue is that we approach this a lot from the cognitive, practical side. We're like, well, you have to do this, and we're going to meet with your guidance counselor, and we're going to set you up A, B, C, D, and you're going to go do through this list. And we don't think about what do they even feel as they're doing it. It's just the practical side — will it work for them to make money, as you said. So, I like that you are bringing that up, that they actually have to feel something and, like, have that response, and not disconnect from it. I think that alone is a huge step for people — especially because during that time of life, I know for me, I was so all over the place, and just to have that new experience and know that that was there, that was very enlightening for me.

[Simon]

Yeah, two things I would say to that, Wanda. One is there are a lot of resources out there — even more now. You know, we've all done some kinds of assessments as adults, like DISC assessments and things that tell us where our alignment is. There’s a lot of career survey type of resources that take that kid who says, I have absolutely no idea, and it asks a whole series of questions — and some of them do both aptitude as well as personality — and put the information together to suggest potential careers, or at least career clusters. And that is sometimes all it takes to start, hmm, I never thought of that. Or what is that? Maybe I want to explore that a little bit more. Right? Where otherwise, it's just, I'm all over the place. I hear a lot of things. And it's the same thing even with college selection. You tend to go to the colleges you've heard of. You tend to go places that your cousin went or your brother went. And sometimes, you just have to do a little bit of research and let them come to you. Let the information come to you, where you can say, I want to take a look at that. I’m going to pursue that a little bit further. So, I think that's a very significant piece of this, and again, the earlier the better. I think as an eighth grader going into ninth grade, because then that also opens up, Wanda, the opportunity to explore courses that are offered at the high school level. You know, I want to major in business, because my dad runs a business and my mom runs a business. Okay, great. So, what does that require? I don't know. Well, let's take an intro to business class in high school then, so that you can understand a little bit more about it, right? It's so many conversations. I just never, ever want a client or a family to be in that mode of, I wish I would have known this three years ago, I wish I would have started this process two years ago. I wish I had known this then, right? So much time and money and resources and frustration all that could be avoided if we start a systematic approach with a conversation from the beginning, and then organically let it kind of drive. My work, when I coach these students, I do not have a program, I do not have a template, right? I have a question that I'll start with, and then that question drives everything that follows in terms of the path and the direction, because every student is individually driven and called to do something. They don't fit in a one-size-fits-all box.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. Well, when you're talking about calling — one thing that I do want to maybe mention is that we're talking about experience and having those experiences, but one thing I think that kids or young people get caught up in is that they see what's around them. They see their parent, like you said, the dad's in business or whatever it might be, and then because that is familiar, they kind of make this assumption that that’s familiar, it’s a safe path, I'll go do that because I know it. And what I want to emphasize is that just because it's familiar to you doesn't mean that that is what God has called you to do. There's such a difference. And just because that was your parents' calling doesn't mean it's yours. So, I just really want to encourage the young people to just go out and explore and be their own person that God designed them to be. Your parents are your parents, and you're you, and you can do your own unique work. It doesn't have to be what they — I mean, everybody has their expectations, you know, the parents say, I'd love it if you could — but ultimately, even in that situation, you listen to God over everything else. And if God is telling you to go do it, you go do it.

[Simon]

Yeah, Wanda, that is actually part of my coaching is, I have to coach the parents as well. I think that there are times, again, look, there's a reasonableness — there are some majors that kids choose where you have to have the conversation of, what is this going to lead to? What kind of career is this going to lead to so you can have a very realistic — because that's a lot of times what parents are thinking, like, you're gonna major in that, and what are you gonna do, flip burgers the rest of your life? Right? I mean, and maybe if that's what you're called to do, then great, right. But I think the parents oftentimes are the ones — I mean, I have a tragic story of one of the highest performing students that I had back at one of the schools where I was a principal. And she was valedictorian of a class, very competitive — I mean, that high school was the number one high school in the nation ranked that year that I was principal, it was a phenomenal program, every kid Ivy-bound and top schools. And this young lady spent, to cut to the chase, spent the next, whatever, twelve years of her life in pre-med and medical specialization, all that — and had a nervous breakdown the week before she was going to start her actual career. And ultimately, as it turned out, she never wanted to pursue medicine, she never wanted to be a doctor. And so, the pressure from home, the respect — in a sense, you know, they're writing the checks, they’re doing — I have to be obedient — ultimately took a decade and a half of this young lady's life. I don't honestly even know what she ended up pursuing after that, because it was a long recovery for her from that. We can do that to our children as parents.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, for sure. You know, when you use that word obedience, I love that you actually use that word, because I think kids so often think that if I don't listen to my parents, then I'm being disobedient, and if I'm being disobedient to them, I'm being disobedient to God — like they link that somehow in their heads. And again, what I want to get across is that when you are obeying God, that is the ultimate thing that you have to do. That doesn't mean you don't respect your parents. But I have come up with — and you can tell me if you agree or not or disagree, and you're welcome to do either one — but my view is that when you obey God first, that brings more honor to your parents than anything else could. And so, I have tried to tell people that, too. So, you know, that's my take on that.

[Simon]

Yeah, I think that's great. I think there has to be a kind of a verification of signs — like, what are the things that you are experiencing, that you are feeling, that tell you that this is the direction that God is leading you? I talk often about biblical examples of this idea of a calling versus a career, in a sense. Right? And I always use the example of Paul, right. In fact, when I ask kids, often, they don't really even know that Paul had a job, right? They know Paul — well, was his job to persecute Christians? Was his job to save the Gentiles? Yeah, well, that was his calling, for sure. That's where God purposed for him to be. But Paul never went anywhere and asked for a collection plate or a love offering. Paul paid his own way to do that ministry work through making tents, right? And a lot of times, kids just didn't know that, because it's very subtly mentioned at different times. I mean, Jesus himself took three decades to do His father's trade before He ultimately became, you know, a full-time minister in terms of the work that He did as the Son of God — not until He was in his 30s. So, and then you know Joseph's journey of over 40 years — Joseph didn't choose prison, he didn't choose to be a slave, he didn't choose to be falsely accused. But in all of that, in all of that, he was obedient, right, and trusted God in the process, because God was preparing him to save all the land, including his own family. And so, when you think — that was a 40-year journey. So, being obedient to God doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be smooth, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be easy. But when you pray, and when you are aligned, and when you take those steps, God will always work it out for good. And so, we have to be — again, as parents and as kids — to just say, what is driving me to feel like this is where God is leading me? So, I can't just do that and say, okay, I’m committing to that for the rest of my life. I have to take those steps, meet the people that do the work, get the experience in the work, get some feedback in the work, just do whatever it takes to get that validation that says, yeah, yeah this is it. And I love doing this as a passion — this other thing, but I know that I can't do that to put food on the table. So, I’ll do — I love music, I'll do music ministry, I'll do music in senior homes, I'll do music for special needs children, I'll do music in a way where I can let it just be my gift to them. But I'm going to pass on music as a career per se, because I also have a skill in something else that I can do, and that's going to help me pay my bills. So, sometimes they align, but they don't always. And we have to make sure we're clear that doesn’t have to be the same. A career and that calling don't have to be one and the same.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. You know, I actually had Danny Brassell on a little earlier for an episode, and he had brought up the film Chariots of Fire, and you know that scene where he basically says, I know I have this mission, but God also made me fast. And that's kind of what you're talking about — you have the mission, but you also have other things that God gives you where, to quote the film, He feels God's pleasure, right. And so, I really believe that there are those skills and gifts that God gives us just to feel that pleasure, because He knows that the mission itself is hard. That calling that you have is so much — like, if we look at Elijah, right, that was so hard — he flees Jezebel, he's not having a great time, he has to go and take a nap and go and eat his bread and water, not once but twice, because he's so tired. It just took everything out of him. But he knew what it was about, and God was sustaining him. And he had other things, I think, that he really enjoyed that got him through it. And I think if you, as young people, that we really identify not only what it is that thing that we are feeling like God is calling us to, even if it's hard — we can feel that the difficulty is there, but that alignment is there — but we can also say, this is the stuff that just — I just feel joyful when I do it. It's a different kind of joy that helps me sustain the mission. Make sense?

[Simon]

Yeah, yeah. And I'll often say to kids — and honestly, when I coach adults, as well, sometimes — if what you're doing and the path to what you're doing is easy, that means that the enemy isn't trying to stop you. That should say something. If it's so incredibly easy, then that means — I mean, I'm not going to say it means you're not doing work for the kingdom — but at the same time, when what you're going to do is going to impact people, the future generations, the current adolescent teens, which is where I'm serving — when you think about the impact there, the enemy is going to throw obstacles in your way and make the journey difficult. The 40-year journey for Joseph, right? The enemy planted seeds in all these different people to kind of throw hurt. And he was still obedient. And Daniel, and all these biblical characters that just said, look, my obedience, like you said earlier, my obedience is to God first. And so, if this is where He's calling me, then honestly He's going to work it all out, even if the trials that I go through are really difficult at the time. I trust that if He's bringing me down this path, He has a purpose in it, and so, I'm going to be obedient to that.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. So, the question, though, that I want to follow up with, with this, though, is that we're talking about two sides to it — that there's this mission that we have and there's this joy — but I think a lot in the corporate environment, especially right away when people get into it, they feel this pressure that they've got to prove themselves a little bit, start climbing that ladder right away, be fast to advance. And so, I think that kind of gets them away from the joy side, because they don't have time to go do the things that they really enjoy, and they think that that's something they can just push off to the side. And then they kind of neglect that. So, maybe you can say a couple of words on that, and maybe just, what would you recommend to maybe keep that balance a little bit better?

[Simon]

That's a — you know, I think we've talked about the idea that there is no such thing as work-life balance, right? You make time for what is important to you. And so, I look back in my life — I was blessed to have a wife who was able to raise our children at home while I was doing multiple jobs and earning multiple advanced degrees. Not everybody's in that situation where they can do that. And so, when you think about what you have in your life to manage, I think the chase often is about getting more, right? It’s about greater power, higher position, more salary. And when we look at God's promises, He promises to, like the birds, that they want of nothing, because He provides for their needs. And so, needs is one thing. Wants and desires and to keep up with the Joneses is another.

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Simon]

So, like, when I talk to these kids — I was talking to about 45 middle school kids just a couple of weeks ago, doing a session and opening up a lot of these doors to these conversations. And when I would ask them to project out 15 years — so, from middle school, that gives them the rest of high school, their post-high school experience, and then, like, their first five years in the real world, right, whatever that looks like — and in every one of them, it was like, where do you see yourself? And what was interesting is, I know I didn’t put it in the question, but out of 45 kids, only one kid mentioned first that he was going to have a family. And I thought that was telling, because when you ask the question about where do you see yourself, we immediately kind of pull ourselves in as, professionally, what do I see myself doing, not who am I going to become, who am I going to be, right? And so, that really struck me as, every decision that you make about this path you're going to take has consequences, has tentacles to impact other aspects of your life. I mean, I remember even going to my first high school — my 10-year reunion, and my wife and I at that point were already expecting our third child. And almost everybody else was still in the throes of whatever — law school, medicine, whatever, and it wasn't even so much that that was a bad thing, but they were all talking about how they were putting that off. They were waiting. I can’t do that yet because I have to do this first. And so, I wonder if the question had been posed to them, like, is there something you could choose to do where you don't have to sacrifice that — if that's something you feel called to do? If you feel God is calling you to have a family, start a family, maybe a large family, if He'll bless you that way — why does it have to be something that you wait for or push off? So, those other pieces of the conversation, kids aren't thinking about that in middle school, in the beginning of high school. And so, we've got to do a better job — and this is something that I really try to do — of opening up every part of the conversation about life's journey. Because, you know, the saying that nobody on their deathbed ever says, I really wish I would have worked more, I really wish I would have spent more time away from home. Right? Everybody has regrets that they didn't. So, why do we wait until we regret it and repeat that from generation to generation? Why not align ourselves better right from the start to say, during my four years of high school I have really asked the questions, gotten the experience to tell me, I am really at peace with this decision. I may not make as much money as I could have, but I'm going to be fulfilled, I'm going to be able to serve, and I'm going to be able to have a family, and that's where my joy is going to come from. So, I think so much of that is dependent on us as adults opening up those conversations with those kids.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, I love that you are bringing this up and we’re talking about this. I had a previous guest, Peter Kolat — and he is the author of Authentic Self-Rebirth — but one of the big ideas that he was putting out in the episode that we had is that you don't take your work and put your life around it. You build your life first, and then you insert your work into that. So, when we're talking about how kids think — teaching them to think holistically that way and say, what does the entire life look like that I want? And then, we have to talk about habit building here, because kids need that, too. But the understanding that the way you start to work when you are young in your career, that is going to build habits for the way that you work for decades. So, very early on, you have to draw those boundaries, is what I'm getting at, and say, this is the life, the whole life that I want — if I want a family, whatever it is — and then say, how do I build that?

[Simon]

I love it. Love it.

[Thibodeaux]

What do I do?

[Simon]

Do the backwards design, right? It’s an educational trick, but — that's why I start with the question of where do you see yourself in 15 years, because then we go back five years from that and say, so, where will you have to be there? And then five years back, and then five years back — and oh, that's today, right? So, what's the first thing that I'm going to do, starting right now, starting tomorrow, that's going to get me on the path to be there in 15 years? And I absolutely love it when I have conversations. See, it's funny. When I started this work with college and career, it was with the same kind of students that I mentioned at that high school where I was principal: high-achieving kids, they were absolutely college-bound, top-level university bound. It's not that I don't enjoy those kids, but they know what they want. For me, the real pleasure — and this is why I feel God has led me into this space — my real joy comes from having the conversation with the kid who's lost, the kid who has no idea. This is why I love being in this military-connected space, because God brought me to a place and a job about five years ago, when we first relocated, near a base, and at that base, I was seeing kids in school that were military kids. And they were moving every year, or every two years. And so, when I would have conversations with them about their future, it was kind of a, what does it matter? Nobody cares. I just go where they send me, and then start all over again. And I thought, well, what if they can have a voice in their ear the whole time, the whole journey, that says, hey, you may change location, but we're still continuing the conversation we started along? And parents are trying their best to keep up with all the constant movement, right, the lack of consistency in their life. And what I found was that that's the sweet spot, that's where God's called me — is to be able to sit with those kids. And it breaks my heart when I'm sitting with Gold Star kids, and I think about these kids who lost a parent in sacrifice for our country or are severely injured — and I work with other organizations that support current active military who are gone for months at a time. And when I can have a conversation with that kid that just pretty much starts with, tell me about yourself, tell me about what you love to do, tell me where you see yourself in ten years — it's almost like the dam breaks and things just start opening up. And I've seen kids, through my coaching, through my relationship building, through my connection, go from a place where they're like, I have no idea, to not only having a plan but implementing the steps on their own to make that plan come to fruition — doing the research, making the phone calls, knocking on doors. Because they just never had the drive or the desire before, because they didn't really know what was burning inside them. And once that comes to the surface, these kids are on fire. And that to me is far more satisfying than any kid coming from a family that already knew from the time they were born that they were going to be going to an Ivy League school and going to med school or law school. Again, I enjoy working with any kid, but those kids that need to find themselves, to figure that out — those are the kids that I absolutely know I'm called to work with.

[Thibodeaux]

What I kind of hear you saying is — well, the way that I’m interpreting it — is that there's a difference between the kids — like you said, like, the Ivy League kids who know from the beginning, or their parents are giving them a sense of direction (and maybe they still need to figure out, well, okay, the parent idea wasn't really me, they need to go explore a little bit) — but that is different than the kid who has never really — like you said, moved around a lot and who has no idea that their work, whatever it is, even matters. Because I think the Ivy League kids, they might get that, at least, even if they don't know what they really should do — they get that they matter. And I think, like you're saying, they can fall through the cracks a little bit, the kids who don’t have that. So, I'm wondering, maybe, based on your experience working with those kids, what do you see in that regard in terms of their identity and maybe gaps or development that they need? Like, where do they need support for that the most?

[Simon]

I think it always starts with the idea of, as you get to know them and as you build a relationship with them, looking for that topic or that conversation or that moment when their eyes light up and they sit up straight and they perk and they start to share something. And it’s not always — most of the time, they don't even realize it, but all of a sudden they're talking about something that they do, or something they've experienced, or something that they've thought about that just completely changes their entire demeanor. And so, I'll always take that as an opportunity to kind of springboard into, tell me more about this — whatever it is. And then they start talking about maybe something they saw and they — gets them really excited, or something they tried once and have never been able to do again, or something even that they saw on TV and they were like, boy, if one day I ever get a chance to do that, I really feel like that would be ideal. I mean, I've had kids share with me, when we talk about vision of where they see themselves, I get them to be in a place where they’re so comfortable, they share their vision of ideas that probably everybody else would have said was absolutely insane. Like, what are you doing? I had one kid I remember that talked about wanting to be a — pyrotechnics. Like, he wanted to do professional fireworks displays. And I'm sure the adults in his life, when he had that conversation, and he told me this later, would always be like, okay, can we find something serious? But he had an artistic nature to him, and a visualization. But then it was like, if you want that, let's backwards design what is it going to take for you, right? You're going to need to understand how to run a business and get safety certifications, and you're going to have to partner up with somebody who does that to truly understand what it takes beyond just the spectacle that they put on. And by the time I left that school, he had a whole plan written out — he had it all figured out. He just went home and couldn't stop thinking about it. So, that’s really important. You've got to figure out what lights a kid up, and never tell them that that can't happen, but there has to be a plan for it to happen — you have to do the research and do the work. I had a client — a parent tell me one time, like, oh, I thought you were just going to make a college list and tell my kid what career he should go into. And I was, yeah, my reaction was my reaction — like, why would I do that? It's asking questions so your child can figure it out for themselves. That's what it all comes down to. If it's not them driving the boat, then what are we doing?

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, I was only kind of laughing a little bit there earlier, because you know, when you’re talking about the pyrotechnics and being serious about it, as a writer, I've never experienced that at all. So, I can relate from that standpoint. But one thing I will add is that when you talk about seeing them sit up straight, seeing them light up — and one thing that I have personally experienced is that the thing that you really — I use this word carefully, but quote, should do, that you might be called to do — I think you have a sense of obligation to it. Like, I think it lights you up, but it's something you can't — like you said, you can’t leave it. And it doesn't matter how many people are telling you, oh, well, that's stupid, you'll never make any money. It doesn’t matter. Like, you — your brain and your heart just keeps coming back to that. That to me is a sense of calling.

[Simon]

That's — but where does that come from? That's the other thing I'm talking to kids about all the time. If God put it there, it's not going away, right?

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Simon]

So, you can fight, you can resist, you can push and do whatever you want, but ultimately you've got to circle back. That's why people change jobs seven to twelve times, and why it takes sometimes 40 years to figure out, like, this is ultimately where I have found fulfillment. But it took four decades of my life to get there. And I always like to use Jonah as the example, too, right? I mean, he was going to end up in Nineveh one way or the other.

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Simon]

So, he could have taken a simpler path than having to get vomited out of the belly of a big fish. But God used that. He made a choice to be disobedient, right, but ultimately that was still God's purpose and God's plan for his life. So, I think the sooner we identify through prayer and through discernment and through experience, the sooner we can find that alignment, the sooner we can find that peace, that satisfaction, that fulfillment. And then, when God knows that we are aligned with Him, He can give us more. He can give us more opportunity to do and reach and serve and impact the world for the kingdom. That's — to me, that’s what it all comes down to. If we're not in alignment, then we're just in a battle the whole way.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. I think, for me, when I think of this sense of obligation — for me, that has been there for as long as I can remember. But I think it's kind of backwards the way that we approach it, though, because especially now, the way that tech is, I think especially the younger generations, they are taught, oh, it's okay to job hop now, it's okay to just change every five years. But if you really had that sense of obligation from the beginning, you wouldn't be doing that. And so maybe we need to be helping them find that sense of what they are obligated to early on, so that that doesn't happen. Make sense?

[Simon]

Yes. And Wanda, that again goes to where I say that there can be a difference between what puts food on the table and what really drives you, right? So, the work, in a sense, that you're called to do, that pays well, that allows you — but then when you think about other ways in which you find the satisfaction, the fulfillment, in terms of serving, in terms of leading, in terms of just engaging in your community as a coach or a volunteer, or those things. There’s other ways to find fulfillment and to add and do more, and it doesn't have to be related to the job that you're doing. I think that's where I try to help kids understand again, early on — you may be fortunate enough that they will be one and the same, and you'll have that alignment, and you'll stay where you are for 40 years and you’ll love every minute of it. That's rare. So, changing jobs because you're going to make more money — if that's what you need to do to support your family, that's fine. But if you're going to be totally unhappy, and coming home and your family's going to see you be miserable, and you don't have anything else to do to shine the light of Christ in your day-to-day walk and your day-to-day conversations — well, then that's where you should be looking for something else to do to meet that need. So, I can tolerate what I have to do here to pay the bills, but it's not really what drives me. What drives me is this over here.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. Well, it just comes back to knowing that mission underneath that job — that's really what God is asking you to do. He's not asking you to necessarily be the writer or whatever it is. He's asking you to go do that thing so that something else can happen. And if you can identify what is it that I am working for beyond the job, I think then it doesn't matter what job you have, because you have that sense of direction regardless. And I'm certainly not saying you can never switch a job, because like you said, sometimes that's just life and you have to. But it's just this idea that you keep that sense of center there — that is what — where God wants you. That's the real mission. The job, just like you said, were talking about Paul, it just supports it. And ideally you get some joy out of that, too, but if not, then you endure it, like Elijah, and you do the mission.

[Simon]

Yeah, there are several verses I actually use in my presentations that talk about what God has kind of prepared you for, and you know, in all things that you do, do it for the glory of God, right? Which means we're not going to do one thing, we're going to do a lot of things. And in all of those things, we are doing it to give God glory. And ultimately, if we do that and we trust Him, then He's going to allow us and give us the opportunity to do other things. So, I think that that is, at an early age — and not every kid that I work with is — can I take a faith-based approach, right? But ultimately, if you think about so much of what we do in coaching, whether it's secular or whether it's faith-based, it's all faith-based, because we coach from a perspective of understanding the Scriptures and understanding that God's instruction manual to us is the only way to live a life that's satisfying, that is rewarding, that is void of conflict and void of anxiety. It's all in the book. And so we can couch it and phrase it whatever way we want in the words, but the reality is that's where it all comes from. And so, if we as parents, if we as teachers, if we as coaches lead with those — that biblical wisdom, then we are assured that we are in alignment. We're not looking for the next quick fix or the next big idea. We are looking for what is tested and tried and true in the word of God, in terms of what it says. And if we're obedient to that, then God will bless wherever our feet trod, because He will be the one lighting the path.

[Thibodeaux]

So, when we're talking about mentors — obviously there is an influence that people can have who have kind of walked the walk, so to speak. So, I'm kind of wondering if you can talk — because you do do team coaching and things — and kind of talk a little bit about what can the leaders do to support the young people? And what are your top recommendations, maybe not just for the leaders, but what can the young people do? What would your top recommendations be for them for how they can get the support that they need and really get started with this?

[Simon]

Yeah, I think there has to be a willingness to tap into the wisdom of the elders, right? I mean, there has to be just a desire to say, yes, the world's a little different, and yes, certain things are more advanced now than they were when you were starting out, but the journey is still the journey. And so, what were the biggest challenges that you faced when you were my age? What are some of the lessons that you learned as you went through this phase of life? When I'm coaching young 30s — maybe newly married, new parents, maybe unhappy in their job — it's like, yeah, been there. I can tell you, but I'm not going to tell you what's right for you. I'm going to ask you certain questions so that you can dig deep and figure out where the real hurt is coming from. That's what coaching is. It's asking questions. And so, I think that job need to — companies need to make sure that there is a kind of a matching, if you will, of a new employee with someone who has been on a maybe similar path, so that there can be an exchange of ideas there. And I think you also have to be prepared, as a more experienced person in the workplace, that you can learn a lot from the new guy, too. This idea of this is how we've always done it and we're always going to do it this way and we’re never going to change — there has to be a culture that is open to that, too. And I think when you start building that kind of trust in the old and the new generation together, I don't think any company can be stopped with that, because you're preparing both — based on the past successes and also with a vision for the future. So, I think you have to build that into your company culture. That's not going to happen organically — people are too busy, they leave work, they want to go home. So, you've got to create some kind of an environment where, I don't know, once a week, twice a month, you're actually taking the time to pour into your people in that way.

[Thibodeaux]

I think that's great advice for anybody who's got young people coming up. If you are going to speak just to the young people, like in your coaching — what are the top things that you tell them, you know, go do this? Maybe the top three that really get a foundation for them.

[Simon]

Yeah, so prayer first, right? I mean, you've got to center yourself and understand — and even if you don't always have the right words, or you don't know how to pray, I think we all know how to say — I think we all, at some point in our life, have hit a place where we're like, I'm talking to God about this. So, to me, talk to God about it. Open yourself up to that, to having Him lead, to resolve whatever the issue may be, or the challenge that you're facing. I think the second thing is stepping out, taking a risk. We tend — you used the word safe earlier. So, I think we have to have a willingness to understand that something might be hard, that we might fail at it, that we might not do it well at all. It might be a complete and utter disaster. As long as we're willing to take the risk, and then understand that there's a lesson to be learned from that, there's growth that happens in that. The caterpillar doesn't become the butterfly without the struggle in the cocoon, right? If you tear the cocoon open too early and say, oh, I want to free you from this trial that you’re in — then it stays a caterpillar, and it dies. So, we have to have a visual understanding of that. And then I think the reflection piece is so critical. We've got to be able to self-analyze and say, what did I do well? What didn't I do well? Who can I surround myself with that can help me do better at this, so that the next time around, when I try it again, I will have a better understanding? And if I fail again, I'm going to repeat the process again. I’m going to bring it to the Lord, I’m going to try it, and then I’m going to get feedback, and I’m going to analyze, and I’m going to repeat, and rinse, until I get it right, where the Lord blesses it in the way that I believe He's been intending all along. But the journey is important.

[Thibodeaux]

If I had to summarize what you're saying, it's a lot of mental and logistical positioning. And the reason I just kind of summarize it that way is because I think we — especially for young people who have been — they’ve been through the academic system — we learn to do the list, right? But approaching this really as that it’s really just this larger approach. Again, like we were talking about being holistic, it's about what does my whole heart have to be, what does my whole mindset need to be — which is a little bit broader than just saying I'm going to check this off. Just getting into that right frame of being — and I'll say being rather than mind or heart, like it's the whole thing — the right frame of being to set that up, and then being willing to go out into those different spaces, fail a little bit if you have to, and understanding that that learning is happening. So, I mean, that's kind of how I'm interpreting what you're saying.

[Simon]

100 percent. And that's how I've been, as a school leader for a long time, building that culture of, yeah, you go ahead and try that — as a teacher, yeah, you do this a little bit differently than I’ve been trained to do. Go for it. Let's talk through it. What are you afraid of? What are your concerns? And then you do it. How did it go? What would you do differently next time? What kind of help can I provide in terms of resources, either human or financial? But if we don't take those risks, then we find ourselves after 20 or 25 years just in that safe zone — I'm just going to do it the way I've always done it, because it's easier, it's safer, and I don't have to worry about failing, and I don’t have to worry about whatever word you want to describe it. But that's all part of the journey that gets us to where we are. If we reflect back on trials in our life and all those places where we have struggled and places where we had real obstacles, if we're honest with ourselves, we look back at those and say, when I see where I came out of that, I understand why I had to go through that. Which is why I say, honestly, for the last five or six years, when I finally kind of came to grips with that, I really haven't had an anxious thought. And that’s because when I find myself in those situations now where there's an obstacle or a challenge, I don't see it as a negative, I see it as an opportunity for growth. Lord, you put me here to learn something, to understand something. So, I'm going to be obedient, I'm going to go through it, I'm not going to wish myself out of it. In your way, in your timing, I will know on the other side of this why I had to go through this. I don't love it right now, I don't even like it one bit.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure.

[Simon]

But I understand, and I trust you in it. And as a result of that, I'm going to be faithful and I'm not going to be anxious.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, one thing that I can point out, too — in the devotional that I had written, Grace in the Grind — one of the things, one of the analogies that I made is that a lot of us are kind of like oak trees. And when oak trees go through the storm, they'll have gnarls come out, like all the scars from these storms, right? And I think a lot of young people are conditioned to just be safe and not want the scar. And all I'm trying to say is that despite the scar, you're still an oak tree. Like, you are who you are, and the scar does not change what God has designed for you. It just means — it doesn't stop who you are. Now you are going to live with that. When people come up to you, they see those gnarls, but that's part of you. And it doesn't change the original intent of why you grew where you grew, and how you grew, right? So, I think if people can, in that young period, just don’t be afraid of a little pain sometimes, because it's not going to change the outcome of you becoming exactly what God wanted you to be.

[Simon]

Yeah, I would even go farther than that, Wanda, and say, embrace the scars, right? Because they become the opportunity to share with someone about your experience — and how God brought you through it — and how so, even with what you're going through, right, you can have confidence that God's going to see you through it. That's what that scar is a reminder of. So, in that sense — I love that analogy. And yeah, it becomes almost an opening to a conversation for someone who just might need to hear the story behind that scar, because it's what they're going through. And that's not coincidence. That's the people that God puts in front of us in our life, because He's equipped us for that moment, for that person. As it says in Esther — for such a time as this. I went through that right for this moment, to have this conversation with you, so that you can get through whatever you're going through. And then at some point you'll share your scar story with someone else, and God will bless that as well.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. Well, there are two things that I want to point out there. First is that when you have those scars, you can actually make them the foundation for the career that you have. I had a guest, Laurette Willis — that's exactly what she did. She went through some pretty really rough stuff, but then she turned that around to be the foundation for her businesses, because she had that shared experience, she understood what people were going through, and she could help them, you know. So, never think that the things that you have been through are going to stop you. They can become the exact foundation for what God wants you to do. And from my own experience, I'm doing a lot of trauma writing, and I would never be in that space if I hadn't been through what I was doing. So, I've really encouraged people. The second thing that I was going to say is just that there are so many points where we want to hide those scars from people. And what I want to emphasize is that sometimes people need to see that somebody else has it before God can work on them. So, don't hide it. People want to have the little perfect picture, but nobody's perfect — nobody has that, like, ever. We just don't. So you are what you are, the gnarls are what they are. Just let God use it however it is. He might have you build a business out of it. Who knows? Maybe it's just something on the side where you can encourage your employees in a certain way. Who knows? But that is part of you, part of your identity. And I don't think we should hide it at all.

[Simon]

Spot on, Wanda. I had a note for myself about that idea — the social media pressure of what everybody's perfect life looks like. It's just not the reality. I think people relate more to people who are real with them. You know, in some ways, it's part of the challenge of the church, too. It's why a lot of the younger generation aren't looking for — they're searching, but they're not going to church to find the answer. They're finding it in the people around them who are actually living out their faith in a very real way. And knowing that their — like you said, their scars are there for everybody to see. Their dirty laundry, in a sense, is out there and openly confessed in a way to say, I am not perfect, and I am a sinner, and I need the Lord and His forgiveness. That's something that people who are searching can relate to — not this idea of this is what we strive to be, and anything short of that, don't even show up. That is a very dangerous message for us to send. So, living that life out with your scars on full display — I absolutely agree with you, because that's a story someone else is going to need to hear.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. And when you're relating it to the church, too — just this idea of identity and being authentic and showing who you really are. I think sometimes part of the reason why young people struggle is because when they approach the church, a lot of it — and of course it depends on where you go — but any service is going to have a little bit of a script to it. Some are more scripted than others. And so, I think we learn that there's not really a time to be fully authentic. There's a time to do the script, there's a time to do the worship, there's a time to go get the community — but when do you actually talk to people? And so one thing that I will actually really recommend for young people, if you are struggling, or even if you just don't know what your career should be — go talk, not necessarily to enter a congregation or a big group to figure out who you are. Go talk to one person, like you were saying, go do the shadowing, figure out one person to connect to, one person where you can be honest. And then when that feels safe, then you go have them introduce you to a group. And then when the group feels safe, now you can be in the congregation.

[Simon]

Excellent, excellent idea.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, and I bring that up because so often we do it backwards. We say, I'm going to go try church because I'm lost and I don't know what to do with my life, or I’m starting and I don’t have any direction, maybe if I join a church — but then we just, we feel like we're fading into the background because everybody else seems to know what to do, and we're just kind of in the pew, and I don't know what to say, and I don't know where to go to talk to anybody. So, then we don't go back, right? Whereas if you start with one person instead of the congregation — I know it feels backwards, but from my experience, that's what works. The one-out connection first.

[Simon]

Love it. Love it. That's a great approach. And I think some pastors might need to hear that message, right — that it's really not about the size of the congregation, it's about the connections that are being formed.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, don't misunderstand me — I think some churches really are making that effort to get that one-on-one, so I don't want to stereotype at all. But you know, that's just my experience.

[Simon]

It’s always — everything that I do, everything — it’s always been about connection and relationship for me. In education we have this adage that says the kids don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I think that is — does it really change as an adult? Does it really matter. I mean, I have friends from high school, and we're diametrically opposed on political and faith-driven issues. But we're able to still have conversations about those kind of controversial topics to a place where they'll even say to me at times, like, you know, you're the only person who believes what you believe that I can have a conversation with. But because they know I care about them. It's always been that way, even before they knew that we were so opposite on issues. We got along because I took an interest in them and engaged with them, and that relationship has stuck. So, I think that is another place that we get very — we just — maybe we take it for granted. Hey, these are people that I like, and that's all I need, right, instead of recognizing how Jesus welcomed everyone — the stranger, the sinner, the tax collector. That was what drove Jesus, was, every single person was created by God, and Christ died on the cross for everyone. Not just the people that go to church on Sunday, not just the people who always do the right thing, because doing the right thing in public and doing the right thing in private are two different things, right?

[Thibodeaux]

Right. I think one thing that gives some trouble on both sides — for the people who need the mentoring and for the mentors — is, and I had talked about it in another episode, where basically, the more that you grow, the more fame that you have, the more you are working as a CEO or whatever, the more leadership that you have, the more distance you actually get from your audience, or your employees, because there's just more responsibility. And so what happens is the leader who actually knows what to do actually becomes an unapproachable other — that's the term that I use for it — because the young people, they have no hope of actually getting to talk to the CEO. Like, none, right? And so, I think part of that is finding — when we talk about Scripture — Jesus found those moments, like with the woman with the hemorrhage. He took those moments to make people visible, even though thousands of people were following Him. And so I think the message for leaders is make those moments so that people still have the hope. And then for the young people — maybe reach out to touch the hem of the robe. Maybe you won’t get the — maybe they're not as unapproachable as you think. We have to meet somewhere in the middle and not let that gap happen. And I think that takes some responsibility on both sides.

[Simon]

That's a great point. Yeah. As a school leader, I had always felt that the influence, the opportunity to influence kids, was always going to increase as I moved up the ranks, right. I think this can be true about almost any business. And so what I found was, when I started as a teacher and then went to a supervisor role, I still always had a couple of classes, because I always still wanted to stay connected with the kids. And then as a principal, I was engaging with the kids day to day, every day. And then when I got my first job as a superintendent, I thought this is going to be the moment that I can really impact an entire district. And what I found was it was completely the opposite. I became that person making decisions in the absence of the clients, the kids, right. And so, I actually did something that a lot of people never do — I stepped back from that role and went back to being a principal for the rest of my career. That's where I finished my career, is back being in the building, because I realized the best way to influence kids is to be with kids, is to connect with kids, to have conversations with kids. And so, even in retirement, that's why I've still taken this avenue — I still love kids. It's where God's called me. It's the gift He's given me to be able to connect and relate to kids in that way, and to help them with these questions, to help them pursue what God's called them to do. So, I believe that. It's a conscious effort on the part of reaching out — or if you want to say reaching up, but also reaching down — that both parties need to kind of meet in the middle in any context, whether it's a school basis or a company basis, because there’s opportunities for both to grow by coming together.

[Thibodeaux]

So, on that note of connecting — if people want to connect with you, where can they go to find out more about your coaching, or just you in general?

[Simon]

I try to make it pretty simple. My website is DanSimonSolutions.com, and my email address is [email protected]. So, I just make it really easy. There's a description of kind of all the overview. I do have a specific page dedicated to my work in the military-connected space, but an overview of all the other services that I have in terms of training, speaking, consulting, small group leadership — it's all described there. And I always am willing to do a consultation, for anybody, whether that's a parent looking for help with their child, again, a 30-something that's in this transition themselves and not sure what to do, even a teenager who's just like, hey, I haven't really had — nobody’s really offered to help, but I heard you, and it sounds like you're willing to help. I always have that first conversation free of charge, because I just want to hear the heart and be able to provide some direction. Maybe I can help, maybe I can't, but if I can't, I want to at least point them in a direction where they can get the help they need.

[Thibodeaux]

That's a lot of what people are just looking for — a little direction to get started.

[Simon]

Yeah.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, just to wrap up here, I always try to close out by praying for the guests that I have. So, would you mind if I pray for you for a second?

[Simon]

I would not. I would love that, Wanda. Thank you.

[Thibodeaux]

Perfect. Alright.

God, I ask that you be with Dan, and when he is doing his coaching, what I ask for him is that you help him notice the little things, the little nuances that maybe they're not explicitly saying, but just give him that discernment about what's necessary, so that he can give them that direction that they're needing, and so that then when people have that direction, then they know to come always right to you. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.

[Simon]

Amen, amen. Thank you, Wanda. Thank you for having me here. It's been a great conversation. Probably could have kept going longer, but I know we’re already over our time.

[Thibodeaux]

That’s no problem. It was very good information. That’s why I didn’t stop you. But yeah, I mean, I have just had such a pleasure. This has been really great, Dan. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

[Simon]

Thank you. Thank you, Wanda. God bless you. Appreciate everything.

[Thibodeaux]

God bless you, too.

[Thibodeaux]

In closing today, being someone who really had to navigate a lot of career choices and growth on my own, I just want to issue a little challenge to you today. Make today the day you choose to go out and get involved with a teen or young adult who isn’t sure what to do or where God wants them to go. Whatever resources or information or support you can give, it’s not too little. To keep yourself inspired as you provide that support, visit faithfulontheclock.com for more Scripture-based content. Next week, I’m going to be breaking down why joy is the best job skill we can bring to the table. Catch that in two weeks, and be blessed.