In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Dorian Rhodes, Human Resources Director at Barton Associates, an architectural engineering firm with locations across Pennsylvania and North Carolina, to explore what it really means to build an HR function from the ground up. In a 60-year-old firm that had never had a formally trained HR leader before him.

Coming from large global organizations where he led HR across the US, Canada, and Brazil, Dorian made a deliberate leap to a hundred-person company where he became the first HR professional in the firm's history. Eighteen months in, he's already implemented the company's first HRIS, digitized paper-based employee records, redesigned the performance management framework, and built a talent pipeline that starts at the high school level.

Together, they dig into what it takes to earn executive trust when you're the first HR leader a company has ever had, how to reframe HR from a cost center to a profit center, and why the "fail fast" mindset is the single most important mental shift for HR professionals working in smaller, relationship-driven organizations.

Dorian also shares how the looming retirement of a 40-year veteran electrical engineer became the catalyst for a formal succession planning approach, why being a business person first and an HR expert second is the real unlock for gaining credibility, and what he believes the lean HR team of the future actually looks like. including when to bring in outside specialists and when to keep it internal.

Topics Discussed:

1. Why Dorian went from tens of thousands of employees to a hundred-person firm and what he found when he got there
2. The crawl-walk-run approach to building HR infrastructure from nothing
3. How to make the case for HRIS investment when every dollar counts and finance runs payroll
4. Reframing HR as a profit center: practical rhythms for building executive trust
5. The "fail fast" mindset and why not everyone agreeing with you is a good sign
6. Performance management rollout strategy, including how to get executive sponsorship before you send a single email
7. Succession planning in a firm where 40 years of tribal knowledge can walk out the door overnight
8. Building a talent pipeline from vo-tech and high school all the way through university career fairs
9. The ESOP advantage and how to use it as a recruiting tool with students who have never heard of it
10. What the future-proof small HR team actually looks like and when to bring in a COE on a contract basis

If you're an HR leader building a function from scratch, navigating a company culture that's never had formal HR before, or trying to prove your value to an executive team that sees HR as overhead, this episode is a grounded and practical look at what it takes to lead people in a company that's been running just fine without you, until now.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Dorian Rhodes on LinkedIn

I came in the door, I wanted take a look at

2

what was I working with, right?

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Where were we from a technology

standpoint versus paper.

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And We did have a lot of paper

still being moved around and even

5

during my own onboarding, right?

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It was a shock that I had

to print a lot of things.

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And I was like, okay, so

this is what I'm coming into.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Hello and welcome to Future Proof HR,

where we explore how forward-thinking

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HR leaders are preparing for disruption

and redefining what it means to

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lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO

of Cleary, and today's guest is Dorian

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Rhodes, Human Resources Director at

Barton Associates and architectural

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engineering firm with locations across

Pennsylvania and North Carolina.

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After spending years in large global

organizations, including leading

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HR for business units spanning the

US, Canada, and Brazil, Dorian has

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made the dramatic jump to lead HR

at a hundred person company where he

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became the first formally trained HR

leader in the firm's 60 year history.

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Today we explore what it takes to build

an HR function from scratch, earning

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executive trust, and what it means

to bring a modern HR mindset into a

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technical engineering driven environment.

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Dorian, welcome to the podcast.

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Dorian Rhodes: Thank you

so much for having me.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So I just

have to go right into it.

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Mention it in your intro.

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What was it like tens of thousands of

people in an organization coming down

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to something completely different?

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Why did you make that jump?

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Dorian Rhodes: That's a great

question and it's a question

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that I get asked quite a bit.

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especially during my interview

process and, before coming to Barton,

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Wanted to really make sure that I

was that HR generalist and business

42

leader that I thought I was and

coming to a firm where I'm able to.

43

really roll up my sleeves and be

involved in everything HR from soup

44

to nuts and I'm doing things that

I haven't done in 15 to 20 years.

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And definitely it's been a humbling

experience, but a great experience

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as well and a challenge and it's

definitely a dynamic environment as well.

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I think the combination

of all of those things.

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Has made it a smooth

transition for myself.

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And ultimately, the reason I

came is to get off the road

50

and stop traveling so much.

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And to really level set myself.

52

And, I'm a huge proponent and believer

of self-health and mental wellbeing.

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And living in airports after a couple

of years starts to weigh on you a little

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bit and cause this wonderful gray.

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Thomas Kunjappu: There you go.

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That's definitely a part of

the picture when you're talking

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about a very global organization.

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But you led with the idea that you're

going in and executing on activities that

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you were probably adjacent to, right?

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Or is happening around you

versus getting into it, yourself.

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And, quite transparently.

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That's I wanna, thread in the back of my

mind throughout, this entire conversation

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is as we're moving into the age of AI

theoretically there are a lot of things

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where you're building things from scratch.

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have a massive infrastructure in

a much bigger organization, maybe

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there's opportunity to, rethink things.

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But as we keep that in the background,

let's crawl before we walk.

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So you're rolling into, a decades

old company, which never had,

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you know, an HRIS for example.

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there's a lot of things

that you're going in and.

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Setting up first, maybe there's

some systems and processes and

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things that you're, inheriting.

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But as you come in, those first few

months, what did you think of as

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the key things that you're first,

getting into, in that crawl phase?

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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Yeah, great question.

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I came in the door,

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what was I working with, right?

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Where were we from a technology

standpoint versus, paper

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and.

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I'll say satisfaction, we did have a lot

of paper, still being moved around and

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even during my own onboarding, right?

83

It was a shock that I had

to print a lot of things.

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And I was like, okay, so

this is what I'm coming into.

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So that was my warm opening, so to speak.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

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Dorian Rhodes: and then, actually

being boots on the ground.

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Realizing that we did need help

in terms of, HR technology.

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Not saying that we were out of compliance,

in order for us to move forward

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and have a single source of truth,

91

we

92

needed to look at, hey, how can

we utilize technology and take

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a lot of these administrative

burdens and tasks off the people

94

and have it in one system?

95

Hence why, one of my first undertaking

was to implement the HRIS system.

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I-9 critical.

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looking at and creating simple

title pages or list of what

98

should be in each employee file.

99

Things like that where we can

easily miss something, right?

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For new hires and things.

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signing up for, E-Verify like

these simple, things as we

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should do, as we move forward.

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those were my first, calls to action

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and, naturally and concurrently

learning and understanding the business.

105

I've worked with engineers, in different,

different capacities over the last, 10

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to 15 years, but this is the first time

I'm working with architectural engineers

107

and it's definitely a different beast.

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And I'll give a little plug to

the organization and say, yes,

109

we've been around for 60 years

and our leadership team has have

110

been here between 20 and 30 years.

111

So me coming in from the outside

and giving a new perspective

112

was a huge, risk on their part.

113

Because I'm coming from

the corporate side.

114

is the word corporate a bad thing?

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and it's me creating that

psychological safety saying, no, the

116

word corporate isn't a bad thing.

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It means consistency, right?

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SOPs.

119

And I'm not trying to change

and make everyone a number.

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I wanna know everyone in an organization

a hundred people from and we're

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professional services, so I should

easily be able to know everyone.

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And that was like, my first

couple of months here doing that.

123

I continue cultivating

relationships across the board.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, so then your

day to day is obviously very different

125

both from getting paper stacks and your

onboarding to the specific projects you're

126

taking on, as well as the way you're

perceived potentially, Coming in versus,

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new for, pretty, team that's been like

working together for many years, if not

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Dorian Rhodes: You ready?

129

Thomas Kunjappu: also let's talk

about the HR function itself, right?

130

So there's a maturing of an organization,

which eventually leads to the need

131

for an HR leader versus, just some,

administrative work that needs to, happen.

132

And, in hiring you, the

company's crossed that chasm.

133

But, it still, the job is never ending

in terms of just, getting, Clarity around

134

the boundaries of the HR function, like

135

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

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Thomas Kunjappu: do versus not do and

when you get budget for what and why.

137

So I imagine compared to larger

organizations you've been with, you

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like just, maybe start to realize

there's a lot of things that are

139

just, whether it's processes, systems,

budget that just were taken for

140

Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

142

And doesn't exist here.

143

So what are some of the things

if, especially if you're

144

talking to peers who are.

145

In that world, Okay.

146

Creating that team from

scratch, effectively, right?

147

Like really building a modern,

effective, impactful HR function.

148

what are, some of the key things

that, ingredients to that.

149

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

150

Sure.

151

and I'm a lifelong learner and

I've been learning, these last 18

152

plus, months I've been here, and a

lot of that has to do with really

153

understanding what the leadership wants.

154

And also understanding what leadership

doesn't know in, in the vein of HR.

155

the, of course we have our HR admin

and who's, who did a great job.

156

before me coming in.

157

And, then it was elevating,

taking us to the next level.

158

And, a lot of data driven decisions,

were made in both, corporate

159

USA, Fortune 500 companies.

160

But I had, I have to go a little bit

more granular and then also explain.

161

Now, I don't wanna say from a

layman's, perspective because I

162

don't wanna diminish my peers here.

163

But it's really explaining the why within

your organization here, why I need this

164

CapEx in order to complete this project.

165

Because in the long term, it's gonna

help our employees with engagement, with

166

retention, and I've always promised,

my managers, the president and CEO,

167

that look, I know HR is a cost center.

168

And my goal is to make it a profit center.

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And I can do that in many ways.

170

And, the main one right away is just

retaining our employees and understanding

171

the wants and needs of those employees.

172

as I continue to move forward, on my

journey here and understanding that,

173

hey, the largest, the large ask in

my first year was that HRIS right?

174

That we, mentioned earlier and,

that's not a cheap, thing to, ask for.

175

And then also to explain that.

176

we would ultimately save money due

to, the administrative burden, cost

177

savings, that was huge right there.

178

And then also being engineers,

being, supporting the engineering

179

group, they wanted to say, okay,

then it would also help with that.

180

as I mentioned earlier, the single source

of truth piece, that, was extremely

181

important to everyone because we had

about four different systems that we

182

were pulling from for simple data.

183

And that's not, it's

not, effective, right?

184

It's from a time perspective, or it's

just from a data integrity perspective.

185

Because we can have data, here and here

about the same, piece of information,

186

but a lot of those things were, issues

or concerns, as we were onboarding,

187

the HRIS system and then also.

188

Digitizing all of the paper files,

and, making sure they were gonna

189

be accepted by, our new system and,

making sure we can create these files

190

without having to scan one by one

and make it even more of a burden.

191

yeah, it was an interesting process

and granted, I'll tell you that

192

this was the first implementation

that I've done of a new system.

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From nothing.

194

And then also on my own without

an HRIS analyst or team backing.

195

So I'm project managing, I'm pulling in

our finance group, I'm pulling in our CEO.

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I'm pulling in everyone to make

sure that they're onboard and

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supporting an understanding

because finance here runs payroll.

198

So I needed to make sure that they were on

board and they understood what was going

199

on as well, so that I'm not just jumping

the gun and saying yes to everything

200

and I'm just the boat too much.

201

Thomas Kunjappu: I know it's hard to

like extrapolate necessarily, right?

202

From your experience, like broadly,

give advice on on the different, like

203

on if someone else was in a different

company trying to build an HR team

204

from scratch and also get the But

I have to ask like specifically on

205

the buy-in side and this concept of

hey, like proving to the executive

206

leadership team that like your approach.

207

versus being an administrative

center it's to bring value, right?

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And

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Dorian Rhodes: Right.

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Thomas Kunjappu: change the

conversation where, you're,

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seen as a profit center, right?

212

it's a, it's an investment.

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These are investments that you wanna make.

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So how do you do that at, for a business

of this kind of smaller scale, right?

215

Where it's, every dollar counts

in every environment, but

216

certainly when you're, just.

217

the first time investing

in an HR function, right?

218

So it's like just scale to this

point, —it's not natural right?

219

to keep investing in this How do

you do that from a, a daily, weekly,

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quarterly rhythm as an HR leader to

maintain that that conversation in a

221

healthy manner with the executive team?

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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So it's been a, an organic process.

224

Of course, 'cause it's grown over the

last, It's during my time here and and

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it's continuing to grow as we uncover new

opportunities from the HR perspective.

226

And, my advice, to, to someone that

would, be starting at maybe a HR of

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one, or of one and a half or two.

228

you start by,

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the relationship is so important

and it doesn't have to be

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always just focused on work.

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On the professional relationship

because you're able to identify,

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key markers in someone's

personality by understanding them.

233

Go in our office, look at pictures, look

at their diplomas on the wall, ask simple

234

questions and the more you're, ingrained

or around stem, it's really around

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everyone, but STEM engineer, type minds.

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They will talk to you about what they do.

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vastly to the point where it's not ad

nauseum, but it's way over my head.

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'cause I'm not a STEM person.

239

But I wanna know and understand

so I can speak the language

240

and then two, be a business person first

and be that business person who happens

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to be an hr, subject matter expert.

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that adds so much value just right there.

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Just not quantitative obviously,

if you're able to sit at the table,

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make sure It'd be able to speak up

and say, Hey, I haven't, I have a,

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an idea about, this in WIP, right?

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work in progress, like,

how do we lower our WIP?

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And you're like, in, in the

past, we've done it this way.

248

and it might not work in this

sense, but it might prompt

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conversation, it might prompt thought.

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And, I think that's helped add value

because I'm not just HR, the next

251

piece is that I've been doing a lot

of outreach in the community to share

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about architectural engineering, right?

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I had no idea what architectural

engineering, is, was, all of it, right?

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And.

255

now, I go to schools like, I

go to colleges, in the area and

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outside of this area, in North

Carolina and talk about this.

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M-E-P-P-M-E industry and people

get excited about it because we are

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the inner workings of a building.

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And, without us architects wouldn't

be able to do anything because we

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keep things within code and, I'll

digress on, our business, but it's,

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that is also a piece that helps us

because it helps with recruiting.

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It helps with branding and all of

this is, a culmination of helping

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us retain and attract new talent to

continue for another 60 plus years.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So knowing the

business is, it's part, like knowing

265

the personal lives of the, of your

leadership and the team that you're

266

working with to like really get connected.

267

But it's also knowing the space

that you're working in, completely

268

outside of the HR functions.

269

And when you're talking about work in

progress, you're, I think what you're

270

talking about is project delivery

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and sometimes

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Dorian Rhodes: correct.

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Thomas Kunjappu: or like you

are over resourced or you're

274

under resourced for the amount

of stuff that you have going on.

275

it's about understanding the

service or product in depth that

276

you're working in so that you can

actually add to that conversation.

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Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: I love how you

brought that home with, it also

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applies in the HR world 'cause you're

able to connect with and drive,

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engagement on the recruiting front.

281

If you're, the more, you are able to talk

to like fresh grads who are just going

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in through, some kind of like engineering

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Dorian Rhodes: Great.

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Thomas Kunjappu: can map what their.

285

Studying to this particular,

function and company.

286

Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So if you're,

focus on knowing the business right?

288

To drive, value.

289

And then you're talking about

rolling up your sleeves and working

290

on all these things, from almost

like first principles, I wonder.

291

If you go beyond the crawling

stage, since you're, you've

292

been doing this in, 2025, right?

293

Primarily, has there been anything

surprising to you or anything that is

294

distinct that, about the way you're going

about building out the function that you

295

feel like you might be very different

from what you would've done if you were

296

in the same position like a decade ago?

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or even five years ago?

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Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

299

I'm all about, collaboration,

and in collaboration with my

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my client group.

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especially the leadership.

302

And years ago I would always

make sure that I would run things

303

by this collaborative, right?

304

It's then to the point where

they're looking to you as

305

being the SME here, right?

306

The subject matter expert.

307

And, you want to share,

and this is something I've

308

learned about myself recently.

309

you wanna share your insight and what

works well and what has worked well

310

in the past, but at the same time,

you want to give, That client group,

311

the opportunity to provide feedback.

312

And most of the time they won't on the

spot because they'll just be shock and awe

313

and listening, And then, later on you'll

get an email, a text, or what have you

314

about, Hey, let's talk about this again.

315

so to move the needle and to move forward,

it's like you have to make a decision

316

and be prepared to fail fast, right?

317

And be able to hop back up

and drive on after you have an

318

opportunity or you have a new idea.

319

from the executive group.

320

and that's been tough because years ago,

as a newer greener, HR person, even though

321

I came straight outta the military, I

should have been prepared for, that, that

322

kind of like chain of command and being

able to provide feedback and take that

323

feedback without, taking it personally.

324

But years ago, I would, and I'd be

like, oh my gosh, I think I'm failing

325

here, but in actuality I'm not.

326

And I should learn from, the failure.

327

And then say, okay, how can we

reverse engineer this to make this

328

work for, the organization and a

lot of those skills and thoughts.

329

And, I can remember a mentor years

ago, at a past company, a, global 60

330

country organization, tell me that,

failing fast is a good thing because

331

that means you were making an effort.

332

And if you make an effort and

not everybody agrees with it,

333

then that's a good effort.

334

If you make an effort that everybody

agrees with, you should question it.

335

Yeah, because that's not how

the life works in everyday life.

336

Thomas Kunjappu: Do you have an example

or two that comes to mind that would

337

like really bring this point home?

338

'cause I feel like you're onto

something, practically It's

339

people like mentally right?

340

Needs to be HR leaders,

341

Dorian Rhodes: you.

342

Sure.

343

Thomas Kunjappu: right?

344

Like

345

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely

346

Thomas Kunjappu: you like approach these,

conversations where, I can think of any

347

number of things, —whether it's around

like recruiting approach or compensation

348

philosophy or performance management

or investment in this tool or whatever.

349

There's so many different possibilities

there, but tell me if I'm onto something

350

here or not in terms of where you're

headed, but often there's an idea that

351

as the HR leader, you are bringing

in a professional point of view an

352

HR professional on how you should

approach this people related problem.

353

And so how dare these CEOs or whatever,

FOS or COOs or VP of sales or marketing,

354

whatever it is, how dare they have

this other point of view about

355

managing, or whatever the particular.

356

recruiting or whatever the thing is,

but like a shared responsibility.

357

But yeah.

358

Tell me how you you think about

navigating in that, 'cause ultimately

359

it is still collaborative, right?

360

Dorian Rhodes: It is.

361

Yeah, absolutely.

362

So there's two here I'll mention two.

363

One is around recruiting, especially

like the career fair recruiting, right?

364

So for such a long time we've had

our, business unit leaders at career

365

fairs, being boots on the ground.

366

and then I come in and I say, Hey,

in order to improve, I think we

367

need to start looking at this.

368

Or we need to start, really finding a way

to make, collecting resumes, more of a

369

digital, kinda moving us forward, right?

370

Instead of paper and then faxing or

scanning, we can do better than that.

371

And,

372

it's oh no, we can't do that.

373

And then we write on the resume.

374

So how do we do the notes?

375

Hey, let's bring an iPad, let's

have an iPad and then scan the

376

resume and then take notes that way.

377

So we have some, just

that technology piece.

378

And it also, helps, from the outside

looking in at us that, hey, they're

379

technology, they're big on technology

there, and that's what, a lot of

380

the students that are looking for

internships or full-time opportunities,

381

they're like, okay, they're on board.

382

that's one, and I know it was very light,

but secondly, this is what's still.

383

very top of mind for me is, I just,

finished rewriting the framework

384

for, performance management.

385

So over the years we've had a

couple of different programs and

386

we really wanna roll it out so that

there's value in it and that there's

387

care and that people take time.

388

And, since we are a hundred person firm

and we have leaders who wear many hats,

389

the span of control is quite vast.

390

Time is always gonna be a concern,

391

I don't have time to do that.

392

So that's where, I step in and say,

look, you have to make the time.

393

Because if we want this to be important

for the organization and for our people

394

and our people to know that we are

taking the time to understand how they

395

want to grow and how they did last

year, and what are their new goals for

396

2026, we need to set that time aside,

not answering emails, looking off, but.

397

Focusing on these people.

398

So creating those, those simple

white, white pages, FAQs to, to prompt

399

conversation, and if the conversation goes

sideways, having, almost a rebuttal sheet

400

where you could bring the conversation

back to, it's almost oh, it's almost

401

like crucial conversations, right?

402

But, I didn't use those, those,

analogies and things that you learn

403

there, but, it's been difficult.

404

But, I think the team gets it.

405

And, I'm also trying to make sure

that we have executive sponsorship for

406

all new initiatives because without

that executive sponsorship look

407

Thomas Kunjappu: besides you?

408

You mean

409

Dorian Rhodes: correct.

410

Yeah.

411

if that

412

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

413

Dorian Rhodes: like if our president

sends, sends a note first, that's

414

what I told him this morning.

415

I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna

send out this note about

416

performance management next week.

417

But I would love for this week, you

send out a precursor so that the group

418

understands that, look, this is coming

from the top and this is important to us.

419

and I'll help 'em draft it, right?

420

To make sure we hit the key points.

421

those things are extremely critical

for us, and they've been, helpful.

422

So we'll see how the, how this

performance management round goes.

423

it's the first one with, my

name stamped on it, right?

424

lots of pressure, but.

425

Hey, the, Paylocity, everybody got

paid, so hopefully I'll be two for two.

426

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

427

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

428

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

429

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

430

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

431

can all tHRive in the age of AI.

432

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

433

community.

434

Now back to the show.

435

Nice.

436

so yeah, you're taking on these

like key initiatives one by one.

437

another one, which is, I would

surmise, based on the, company

438

context that's related to the,

performance is also succession planning

439

Dorian Rhodes: Yes.

440

Thomas Kunjappu: for an organization

like this, It's been around for a

441

while and you have a lot of senior.

442

leaders and there, there whole industries,

I think, throughout America where there's

443

like this turnover, generation, not

turnover, but like a generational handoffs

444

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

445

Thomas Kunjappu: and especially

in certain industries.

446

software engineering has like bled

talent, I would say from so many other

447

parts of the engineering pipeline in.

448

terms of college grads going in.

449

and in a lot of industries you've seen

like the, Tenure, go grow older and

450

older with every passing And then, with,

broadly speaking, baby boomers retiring.

451

And in the midst of that, there

needs to be like a handoff.

452

And you're in of your challenge, right?

453

is that right?

454

That handoff in this very

455

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

456

Thomas Kunjappu: industry, keeps

us like, keeps the, buildings from

457

falling down over under us and keeps us

458

Dorian Rhodes: That's it.

459

Thomas Kunjappu: while

we're in there, right?

460

so it's not going away.

461

we need that.

462

how do you think about that?

463

Because there's so many folks in, HR

and I feel like that's like a unique,

464

sub challenge that's probably available

for folks who are like, interested,

465

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

466

Thomas Kunjappu: was that a

big part of the draw for you?

467

And also like how do you,

how do you navigate that, and

468

what have you learned so far?

469

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

470

yes, it's a absolutely been a big

draw for me because it's, there's a

471

lot of opportunity to, one, identify

those HiPos, within the organization,

472

which, I feel like all of our leaders

spread across all of our office

473

locations, probably has a file.

474

In their drawer that says, this is my

HiPo, this is my HiPo, this is my HiPo.

475

This is my 24 month, 36,

et cetera for this person.

476

But also there's been a lot of,

hush conversations where it's

477

I know we can't talk about when

you're gonna retire, but, it's, and

478

they're like, Hey, can I ask 'em?

479

absolutely not.

480

during your review time, let's

talk about where where they wanna

481

be, and it's have those open-ended

conversations, to be able to.

482

understand it.

483

And then also, we recently lost

a 40 year electrical engineer,

484

critical for our business.

485

And, he's been here since college.

486

It's unbelievable.

487

and we didn't have the opportunity,

it was just when I started as well.

488

So I didn't have the opportunity

to say, Hey, we need to start,

489

I need to request that headcount

now so that I will have time.

490

The business will have time to do

a proper handoff or that business,

491

so we don't have a business break.

492

And just for business continuity.

493

and the knowledge transfer, there,

there was a lot of, knowledge

494

that was missed unfortunately.

495

But, we were bouncing back

and, coming back from it.

496

But we still have a little

bit of a gap, right?

497

Where that, that's 40 years of just tribal

knowledge that, it's pretty impactful.

498

So we're looking to, backfill that role,

especially in electrical engineering,

499

which is a, a, a discipline that there's

not a lot of talent in, and anyway,

500

there's a lot of reasons why Yeah.

501

Thomas Kunjappu: sometimes in some

ways that's a gift horse and it's

502

like organizations learn when, there's

a real, a moment of trauma or pain.

503

Dorian Rhodes: Great.

504

Absolutely.

505

Thomas Kunjappu: always point to

that, like culturally, remember

506

what happened, over there.

507

So we, that's, you can always just,

that's shorthand for why we're like,

508

Dorian Rhodes: we're

focused on it now, right?

509

Yeah.

510

Because we don't want

that to happen again.

511

And now we have a list, of folks that

we look at our three to five year.

512

and then we create a plan, for the

next 360 to say, okay, the next 365

513

we're gonna, look at recruiting,

especially if it's a harder role.

514

and I'll share it.

515

I'll be like, look, there's

not a lot of people in this.

516

And I'll, kinda share some market data

and some data around, who, who wants to

517

move to some of our locations and how do

we really draw folks to these locations?

518

we have an office in a, pretty

large college town that, the town,

519

really quadruples in size during.

520

During, the semester and

then outside of the semester.

521

it's a ghost town almost.

522

And so how do I draw people to

want to live in that area, because

523

that's where we need talent.

524

So that's been a huge hurdle in a, but

a fun, a fun thing as well, because it's

525

okay, this is a needle in a haystack,

from a, from the talent perspective,

526

but also to selling, this area, as well.

527

so it's a fun challenge.

528

I'll say maybe I'm a little

bit off for thinking it's a fun

529

challenge, but I'll take it.

530

Thomas Kunjappu: it.

531

is.

532

I don't think you're off there.

533

and also the other side of the challenge

is also, I think equally interesting

534

is the talent pipeline, right?

535

You talked about a little bit with

college recruiting fairs, and actually

536

maybe you have a built in advantage

being in a college town to, get folks in,

537

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

538

Thomas Kunjappu: got to

a set, set of colleges.

539

But, is there, like, how, early in

540

the pipeline do you feel

like you need to go?

541

in terms of, there's some folks in

certain industries where they're like

542

partnering much more deeply, right?

543

With universities and,

544

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

545

Thomas Kunjappu: down to high

schools to like really draw

546

talent, into the particular sector.

547

what do you guys see it for you

and educate me a little bit on, I

548

think is the phrase is MEP, right?

549

Dorian Rhodes: Yes.

550

MEP.

551

Yep.

552

Mechanical, electrical, plumbing.

553

Thomas Kunjappu: What does that

look like to draw talent in

554

this particular kind of field?

555

And I wonder if that's like almost like

a subspecialty for HR professionals

556

in the future where you're actually

getting, good at college and maybe

557

even like high school partnerships to

558

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

559

Thomas Kunjappu: a flow, of the

right talent pipeline going.

560

Dorian Rhodes: that,

that's a great question.

561

and we focused on just that the

high school is our first step in.

562

We utilize a lot of shadowing

opportunities where we bring

563

college students in to let 'em

shadow for 48 hours to see if they

564

like architectural engineering.

565

'cause usually the career counselors

are saying, oh, are you interested

566

in architectural engineering?

567

Students are like, what?

568

or they're like, oh, I hear architect.

569

Yeah, I wanna be an architect.

570

Or they just hear engineering and

they're like, no, I can't be an engineer.

571

Or one or the other.

572

bringing people in, letting

'em see what we're doing.

573

And we have some really cool, BIM,

which is like building modeling and

574

3D where you can see our efforts

and how we, work and what we do.

575

And we can show examples and

then, they can shadow, a designer

576

and engineer or project manager.

577

And see what a day in

the life of looks like.

578

And working with drawings and seeing,

going on site, doing punch lists, doing

579

survey work, and, building that pipeline

from the grassroots, I'll say, in high

580

schools, has helped us tremendously.

581

also we have a, we have a tech school as

well, which, it's an extension of high

582

school where there's architectural design.

583

as a major, and we had a great

intern last year who was a senior

584

in high school that would work.

585

about 20 to 30 hours a week, during

the year and, during the year

586

and during the summer, who is now

in college to be an electrical

587

engineer from, technical vo-tech.

588

and that's for my, maybe from

my generation that's different.

589

'cause I'm used to, if you're

a vo-tech, you're gonna go

590

to work right after school.

591

But she was.

592

Exemplary.

593

And now she's, doing so well in college

and we're like, Hey, come back and intern

594

whenever you'd and she's, she has that

open, that open invitation and she's

595

gotta take us up on it and it's great.

596

And, so from there we go to, the, two year

schools that, also focus on that, cad.

597

Work or that BIM work and

architectural design as well.

598

And we have conversations there.

599

'cause we've hired directly from,

those schools as well where we've

600

had folks start in that BIM CAD

technician role and grow to a designer.

601

So like we bring, I bring those people

in and say, Hey look, talk to, employee

602

X and he'll tell you his story because

he started, exactly where you are.

603

and then from the university

side, Those relationships are so

604

important, because, you have 400

plus employers at a career fair.

605

It's so easy to get lost in the shuffle.

606

I'm, and again, I don't wanna sound like

a broken record, but I'm used to being,

607

the large organization who has the biggest

608

Thomas Kunjappu: A big booth.

609

Yeah.

610

Dorian Rhodes: and now I'm in the middle.

611

And looking down and seeing meta

seeing Ford, and I'm like, but we're

612

still there representing and showing

what we're doing and we still get a

613

lot of foot traffic because, people

are generally interested and we're

614

always, trying to improve our presence.

615

we bring, it's very simple, but we bring

a TV and we show, just these fly-throughs.

616

We show what we do, and right away

people are like, oh, you're architecture.

617

no, actually, without, we make

buildings work, that's our mantra.

618

See it on our website,

and that's what we do.

619

and it's super cool.

620

And once you see the aha on, on

students' faces and they realize

621

that, no, there's no such thing

as being recession proof, but.

622

As long as we're continuing to

build more buildings, build more,

623

commercial or residential or just like

revitalizing, areas or old factories.

624

my building here, for

625

It's the old gas factory

for this entire town.

626

Now.

627

It's our office.

628

it's beautiful.

629

Yeah.

630

it's super cool.

631

Thomas Kunjappu: Wow.

632

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

633

it, like right behind me used to be

these huge silos where they kept coal.

634

And yeah, it's amazing.

635

And now, it's 200 years plus later now

I'm in, in this office, in here talking

636

about or talking about engineering

right in, in, architectural engineers.

637

So it's cool too to bring folks here and

say, Hey, we designed this, from a shell

638

and we have the photos of it as well.

639

It's so cool.

640

So yeah, it's, it's about

building that funnel.

641

and I'll tell you, this is the

last piece on the talent attraction

642

part that's near and dear to me.

643

Look, I started my career in HR as a

recruiter, I'll always consider myself

644

a recruiter slash HR generalist, right?

645

Because that's, I love recruiting,

but granted, I don't wanna

646

recruit day in and day out.

647

That's, it's a little, that's a lot.

648

But respect to those who do, But I love,

having the opportunity to talk about.

649

our company, the fact that we're an ESOP

and we care about our people and all

650

of our employees are company owners.

651

and that might not be important to

those high school or, second year

652

college students, but once you start

drilling it in and they're like,

653

oh, so 401k, yes, we have that,

but we also have this ESOP piece.

654

it's free money, right?

655

As long as you're doing your job

and you're part of, you're part

656

of the cause and you believe in

what we're doing, that's even more

657

dollars for you in the long term.

658

Nobody wants to work forever.

659

So yeah, it's a little bit more.

660

Thomas Kunjappu: that's great.

661

I think we're really getting a picture

of how broad the remit ends up being.

662

Of when with what you've

taken on here at the scale.

663

So while I have you, then I

wanna talk about, maybe it's like

664

the future of HR small company

665

edition.

666

Dorian Rhodes: Okay.

667

Thomas Kunjappu: So what

do you think it looks like?

668

So if we're reflecting five years,

down the line, for a company in this

669

kind of employee size and range, right?

670

there's differences based on industry

and location and all these different

671

things, but, there are some things that

make, there's a reason an HR function

672

isn't, is a whole, it's a function, right?

673

And there's a set of things that

are common across organizations.

674

So if you're thinking about

it from that perspective.

675

what does that look like for you?

676

What do you imagine that future proof

HR team, for small company edition,

677

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

678

Thomas Kunjappu: like what

skill sets are expressed?

679

What's done more or less than

today, or how do you see it all

680

coming together as we, move forward?

681

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

682

So I think a lot of it has to

do with first understanding

683

the new generations, right?

684

Because that's gonna really help

shape what HR looks like and

685

what I've uncovered is that the.

686

the new students that are graduating

and maybe even, between five years

687

in graduation need a higher touch.

688

and it might not necessarily be from HR,

but when they see HR, it's oh, we can

689

have a regular conversation with you.

690

I've had so many like of those experiences

as I'm visiting offices and checking

691

in and just stopping and say hello.

692

And of course we all know

HR as a stigma anyway.

693

if we're coming over, they're looking

for the banker's box in my hand.

694

And I'm like, no, come in here to

just say, hey, and find out about you.

695

So I think in the future, I think

continuing the relationship side of HR

696

is critical, for small organizations

because you're, yeah, you're a member

697

of the leadership team, in a way.

698

But at the same time, you need

to be an extension and almost

699

like a liaison sometimes.

700

So that folks feel comfortable

talking to you if they don't feel

701

comfortable going to the ivory tower.

702

And, I think that's been,

very helpful for me.

703

in order to create that

psychological safety, with my folks.

704

I think also we're obviously

gonna get more and more into, data

705

and it, and everybody's talking

about, HR data analytics and

706

being able to, decipher data from.

707

whatever system and help the

organization understand, where we're

708

gonna be, in Q1 next year versus

Q4 and then, look at the trends.

709

Yes, of course that is

very important as well.

710

But, I also think that a lot of these,

711

I'll call 'em COE type roles

within HR can be, I don't wanna say

712

pushed offsite, almost having that.

713

that offsite help, or whether

it's like a third party, assisting

714

in, projects here and there.

715

Because while we're still focused on

people, that's my thought and vision

716

on, how I feel HR is gonna look in five,

plus years because I think there will be.

717

this, center of excellence of analysts

that just focus on that and they'll

718

provide value, from the outside,

especially for smaller organizations,

719

and that'll be a true partnership.

720

Thomas Kunjappu: That's interesting.

721

So with center of Excellence, I,

it sounds like you're putting all

722

the different buckets in my mind.

723

There's you Sure.

724

People analytics, there's, compensation

725

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

726

Thomas Kunjappu: there's,

potentially performance L&D,

727

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

728

Thomas Kunjappu: and even just

like the service delivery of

729

just, just the, support, all these

different centers of excellence.

730

But I guess with a smaller

organization or smaller HR team.

731

if I'm translating what you're saying,

maybe it's actually the fact that

732

there's seasonality to the demand,

733

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

734

Very much

735

Thomas Kunjappu: we have an end of year

project to get this, to analyze a ton

736

of this data and we wanna present it.

737

But that it's a two month project

738

Dorian Rhodes: Right.

739

Thomas Kunjappu: you

want a deeper skillset.

740

It's not a full-time

741

role.

742

And where, you might go.

743

And so then.

744

Tell me more about, okay, so

what is the, that core then?

745

So of, what is the full-time

kind of team, right?

746

So you're, and especially if you

have someone alongside an HR leader,

747

you're able to get that right?

748

So what does that first person,

or if you have a team of two

749

that's like full-time, it's a

750

little bit flexible across these things.

751

what do you think that looks like?

752

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

753

Yeah.

754

I think there, there naturally needs

to be that HR leader in whatever

755

title that that is I don't think

that really matters so much, but

756

there needs to be that leader who is.

757

in the room with the executive

group so they understand the vision,

758

the movement of the organization

long term and intermediate.

759

and short term obviously.

760

I think that's critical.

761

And then that has to be shared, with

your HR generalist slash business

762

partner, because I think that is a

level that is boots on the ground

763

hearing exactly what's happening.

764

while, the leader could

be in a meeting for, a.

765

Or executive retreat or what have you.

766

the business is still humming, so

we need to always have a finger on

767

the pulse and know what's going on.

768

And so I think,

769

those two pieces are important.

770

And then there needs to be a

specialty, with both roles.

771

the leader has to have a

specialty in something.

772

whether that's, whether it's comp,

whether it's, talent management, and

773

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

774

Dorian Rhodes: say again.

775

Thomas Kunjappu: Or recruiting

776

Dorian Rhodes: Or recruiting.

777

Exactly.

778

so that.

779

Look, you can do those things well,

maybe one or one to three things.

780

and then you have your, your

generalist slash BP that can

781

do one to two things well also.

782

So then when we do, or if you do have

to go outside for a project or a, a

783

contractual type, of a project, then

it's not a so big of a lift, and I

784

mentioned before that, I'm a generalist.

785

I would love my BP or my generalist

to be also that generalist that

786

understands HR to the point of if

we have a contractual group that's

787

helping us with a specific project,

we can also jump in to help shorten

788

enlighten the load for that third party.

789

Because then look,

that's more cost savings.

790

And then, we actually have impact

and we help that third party

791

understand what our culture is and

how to actually deliver the message.

792

Thomas Kunjappu: I love that.

793

one last follow up on this then,

794

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

795

Thomas Kunjappu: that's, if that's the

case and you're talking directly to.

796

now not engineering graduates, but maybe

just college graduates who are interested.

797

I'm not sure why, but crazy enough

to be interested in HR and getting

798

into, in, into that function more

broadly, given that vision for what you

799

imagine for at least in this context,

800

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

801

Thomas Kunjappu: like a right hand

person, what do you think are the,

802

the skill sets or the, capabilities

that, such a person should stress?

803

to get experiences around or

to, really start to get good at.

804

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

805

so I'm a believer of, spreading

your wings and not becoming so

806

focused on one area, especially

in the beginning of your career.

807

Because if you do that, then

you're almost, typecast.

808

as that role, you may

love it, which is great,

809

but still have that variety because

that will only help you in the future.

810

Because if you have enough to, to

811

form a foundation in talent management,

in compensation, in benefits, that

812

makes you a real well-rounded HR person.

813

And then find your path.

814

a great example, just really quickly,

a, former, rotational program.

815

person that I went tHRough,

a similar program with,

816

just was in a compensation role.

817

He moved up to manager and he's

been a manager for about five

818

years at a larger organization.

819

Just, let me know that he's

now the manager of HR business

820

partners for an entire BU,

821

completely different.

822

Yeah.

823

And he's like an analytical person,

but I think over the years of leading

824

people, he's what, I can do this.

825

And I always knew he could.

826

he's very good with people.

827

And, it was cool to see.

828

So I think that's a great example.

829

he, I'll never forget it when we were

going through that program, he would

830

always say, I don't think being,

the face of HR is what I wanna do.

831

I wanna be in the background.

832

I love, the data.

833

I love working with comp, I love working

with talent management, on the design

834

side and let it let somebody else execute.

835

And now.

836

He is, he's leading the charge

for, I think 14 business

837

partners, across the globe.

838

And I'm like, wow, look how things change.

839

he's a great example of just, he did a lot

of things that he did not enjoy at first.

840

But now that he sees the full

picture, it's similar to myself.

841

I saw the full picture from recruiting

842

to, student being an orientation

specialist, to, to being a,

843

a benefit specialist and,

working with brokers nonstop.

844

and now, being that business partner and

being the right hand to, the operations

845

groups and now, leading the group.

846

I'm like, this is a culmination of.

847

all of my experiences over the years

and not to mention, some of my Army

848

leadership gets in there as well,

but that's the selfless service side.

849

Thomas Kunjappu: I'm sure.

850

you for.

851

going through that, like that,

I guess philosophy, right?

852

You have around, keeping and maintaining

that flexibility and like holding onto it

853

like early

854

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

855

Thomas Kunjappu: explicitly.

856

a as you go along to be relevant both

on the future proof junior rungs as

857

like a new, new, being relatively new

in your career, as well as how that

858

naturally gets you along the way towards

leadership roles in, in the future.

859

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

860

Thomas Kunjappu: it's been a

fascinating conversation about just

861

this, massive jump that you've made

and, in terms of employee size and,

862

but

863

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

864

Thomas Kunjappu: just the

proxy for the actually what it

865

is that you're doing, right?

866

And in some ways all the exposure and

all the different types of things that

867

you're doing across all these different,

organizations and sub-functions within

868

HR helps prepare you, for this kind of

broader generalist point of view right?

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Towards, the function that you.

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Have to, take on,

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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Thomas Kunjappu: given,

the size and scale.

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but I think that is, something

that, it's could be very interesting

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for a lot of HR leaders, right?

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Is to go in, go smaller, and then think

about how you can, build appropriately

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to your point about having general

skill sets internally, and then the COEs

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might be a luxury almost that you do

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Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: until a later scale

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and then, but you're able

to supplement in key pieces.

881

with, third parties and with

a generalist team, being able

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to supplement them, right?

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So to make things efficient, I

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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Thomas Kunjappu: process and I

think it's a very fascinating

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industry that you're in.

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It's it is a kind that, I feel like the

broader economy and the labor market

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needs to flow more people towards future.

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Proof, like the, the work rate.

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It's, There, there's some kind of like

hard work around, what it takes to build

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a building that is gonna take, a lot

more time for AI to directly get in front

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of, and we need good people, in there.

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I feel like it's an easy sell, right?

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Probably what you're doing on

the recruiting front, but I think

895

it's a, it's an interesting field.

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So thank you for the conversation, Dorian.

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It's

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Dorian Rhodes: Thank you.

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Thomas Kunjappu: pretty interesting for

HR leader more broadly, but certainly

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for anyone who is looking to, considering

leading one up right for the, or building

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one from scratch, almost, a lot of

practical, tools and, takeaways here.

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So with all that said, for everyone

who's listening along, thank you for

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that and your attention, and good luck

as you're future proofing your own

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organizations and your own HR functions.

905

See you on the next one.

906

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

907

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

908

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909

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how we can all thrive in the age of AI.