In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Dorian Rhodes, Human Resources Director at Barton Associates, an architectural engineering firm with locations across Pennsylvania and North Carolina, to explore what it really means to build an HR function from the ground up. In a 60-year-old firm that had never had a formally trained HR leader before him.

Coming from large global organizations where he led HR across the US, Canada, and Brazil, Dorian made a deliberate leap to a hundred-person company where he became the first HR professional in the firm's history. Eighteen months in, he's already implemented the company's first HRIS, digitized paper-based employee records, redesigned the performance management framework, and built a talent pipeline that starts at the high school level.

Together, they dig into what it takes to earn executive trust when you're the first HR leader a company has ever had, how to reframe HR from a cost center to a profit center, and why the "fail fast" mindset is the single most important mental shift for HR professionals working in smaller, relationship-driven organizations.

Dorian also shares how the looming retirement of a 40-year veteran electrical engineer became the catalyst for a formal succession planning approach, why being a business person first and an HR expert second is the real unlock for gaining credibility, and what he believes the lean HR team of the future actually looks like. including when to bring in outside specialists and when to keep it internal.

Topics Discussed:

1. Why Dorian went from tens of thousands of employees to a hundred-person firm and what he found when he got there
2. The crawl-walk-run approach to building HR infrastructure from nothing
3. How to make the case for HRIS investment when every dollar counts and finance runs payroll
4. Reframing HR as a profit center: practical rhythms for building executive trust
5. The "fail fast" mindset and why not everyone agreeing with you is a good sign
6. Performance management rollout strategy, including how to get executive sponsorship before you send a single email
7. Succession planning in a firm where 40 years of tribal knowledge can walk out the door overnight
8. Building a talent pipeline from vo-tech and high school all the way through university career fairs
9. The ESOP advantage and how to use it as a recruiting tool with students who have never heard of it
10. What the future-proof small HR team actually looks like and when to bring in a COE on a contract basis

If you're an HR leader building a function from scratch, navigating a company culture that's never had formal HR before, or trying to prove your value to an executive team that sees HR as overhead, this episode is a grounded and practical look at what it takes to lead people in a company that's been running just fine without you, until now.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Dorian Rhodes on LinkedIn

I came in the door, I wanted take a look at

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what was I working with, right?

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Where were we from a technology

standpoint versus paper.

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And We did have a lot of paper

still being moved around and even

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during my own onboarding, right?

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It was a shock that I had

to print a lot of things.

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And I was like, okay, so

this is what I'm coming into.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Hello and welcome to Future Proof HR,

where we explore how forward-thinking

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HR leaders are preparing for disruption

and redefining what it means to

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lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO

of Cleary, and today's guest is Dorian

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Rhodes, Human Resources Director at

Barton Associates and architectural

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engineering firm with locations across

Pennsylvania and North Carolina.

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After spending years in large global

organizations, including leading

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HR for business units spanning the

US, Canada, and Brazil, Dorian has

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made the dramatic jump to lead HR

at a hundred person company where he

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became the first formally trained HR

leader in the firm's 60 year history.

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Today we explore what it takes to build

an HR function from scratch, earning

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executive trust, and what it means

to bring a modern HR mindset into a

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technical engineering driven environment.

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Dorian, welcome to the podcast.

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Dorian Rhodes: Thank you

so much for having me.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So I just

have to go right into it.

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Mention it in your intro.

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What was it like tens of thousands of

people in an organization coming down

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to something completely different?

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Why did you make that jump?

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Dorian Rhodes: That's a great

question and it's a question

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that I get asked quite a bit.

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especially during my interview

process and, before coming to Barton,

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Wanted to really make sure that I

was that HR generalist and business

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leader that I thought I was and

coming to a firm where I'm able to.

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really roll up my sleeves and be

involved in everything HR from soup

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to nuts and I'm doing things that

I haven't done in 15 to 20 years.

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And definitely it's been a humbling

experience, but a great experience

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as well and a challenge and it's

definitely a dynamic environment as well.

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I think the combination

of all of those things.

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Has made it a smooth

transition for myself.

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And ultimately, the reason I

came is to get off the road

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and stop traveling so much.

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And to really level set myself.

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And, I'm a huge proponent and believer

of self-health and mental wellbeing.

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And living in airports after a couple

of years starts to weigh on you a little

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bit and cause this wonderful gray.

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Thomas Kunjappu: There you go.

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That's definitely a part of

the picture when you're talking

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about a very global organization.

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But you led with the idea that you're

going in and executing on activities that

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you were probably adjacent to, right?

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Or is happening around you

versus getting into it, yourself.

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And, quite transparently.

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That's I wanna, thread in the back of my

mind throughout, this entire conversation

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is as we're moving into the age of AI

theoretically there are a lot of things

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where you're building things from scratch.

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have a massive infrastructure in

a much bigger organization, maybe

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there's opportunity to, rethink things.

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But as we keep that in the background,

let's crawl before we walk.

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So you're rolling into, a decades

old company, which never had,

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you know, an HRIS for example.

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there's a lot of things

that you're going in and.

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Setting up first, maybe there's

some systems and processes and

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things that you're, inheriting.

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But as you come in, those first few

months, what did you think of as

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the key things that you're first,

getting into, in that crawl phase?

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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Yeah, great question.

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I came in the door,

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what was I working with, right?

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Where were we from a technology

standpoint versus, paper

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and.

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I'll say satisfaction, we did have a lot

of paper, still being moved around and

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even during my own onboarding, right?

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It was a shock that I had

to print a lot of things.

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And I was like, okay, so

this is what I'm coming into.

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So that was my warm opening, so to speak.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

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Dorian Rhodes: and then, actually

being boots on the ground.

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Realizing that we did need help

in terms of, HR technology.

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Not saying that we were out of compliance,

in order for us to move forward

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and have a single source of truth,

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we

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needed to look at, hey, how can

we utilize technology and take

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a lot of these administrative

burdens and tasks off the people

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and have it in one system?

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Hence why, one of my first undertaking

was to implement the HRIS system.

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I-9 critical.

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looking at and creating simple

title pages or list of what

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should be in each employee file.

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Things like that where we can

easily miss something, right?

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For new hires and things.

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signing up for, E-Verify like

these simple, things as we

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should do, as we move forward.

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those were my first, calls to action

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and, naturally and concurrently

learning and understanding the business.

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I've worked with engineers, in different,

different capacities over the last, 10

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to 15 years, but this is the first time

I'm working with architectural engineers

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and it's definitely a different beast.

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And I'll give a little plug to

the organization and say, yes,

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we've been around for 60 years

and our leadership team has have

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been here between 20 and 30 years.

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So me coming in from the outside

and giving a new perspective

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was a huge, risk on their part.

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Because I'm coming from

the corporate side.

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is the word corporate a bad thing?

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and it's me creating that

psychological safety saying, no, the

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word corporate isn't a bad thing.

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It means consistency, right?

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SOPs.

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And I'm not trying to change

and make everyone a number.

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I wanna know everyone in an organization

a hundred people from and we're

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professional services, so I should

easily be able to know everyone.

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And that was like, my first

couple of months here doing that.

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I continue cultivating

relationships across the board.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, so then your

day to day is obviously very different

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both from getting paper stacks and your

onboarding to the specific projects you're

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taking on, as well as the way you're

perceived potentially, Coming in versus,

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new for, pretty, team that's been like

working together for many years, if not

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Dorian Rhodes: You ready?

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Thomas Kunjappu: also let's talk

about the HR function itself, right?

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So there's a maturing of an organization,

which eventually leads to the need

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for an HR leader versus, just some,

administrative work that needs to, happen.

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And, in hiring you, the

company's crossed that chasm.

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But, it still, the job is never ending

in terms of just, getting, Clarity around

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the boundaries of the HR function, like

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Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

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Thomas Kunjappu: do versus not do and

when you get budget for what and why.

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So I imagine compared to larger

organizations you've been with, you

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like just, maybe start to realize

there's a lot of things that are

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just, whether it's processes, systems,

budget that just were taken for

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Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

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And doesn't exist here.

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So what are some of the things

if, especially if you're

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talking to peers who are.

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In that world, Okay.

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Creating that team from

scratch, effectively, right?

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Like really building a modern,

effective, impactful HR function.

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what are, some of the key things

that, ingredients to that.

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Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

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Sure.

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and I'm a lifelong learner and

I've been learning, these last 18

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plus, months I've been here, and a

lot of that has to do with really

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understanding what the leadership wants.

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And also understanding what leadership

doesn't know in, in the vein of HR.

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the, of course we have our HR admin

and who's, who did a great job.

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before me coming in.

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And, then it was elevating,

taking us to the next level.

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And, a lot of data driven decisions,

were made in both, corporate

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USA, Fortune 500 companies.

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But I had, I have to go a little bit

more granular and then also explain.

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Now, I don't wanna say from a

layman's, perspective because I

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don't wanna diminish my peers here.

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But it's really explaining the why within

your organization here, why I need this

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CapEx in order to complete this project.

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Because in the long term, it's gonna

help our employees with engagement, with

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retention, and I've always promised,

my managers, the president and CEO,

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that look, I know HR is a cost center.

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And my goal is to make it a profit center.

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And I can do that in many ways.

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And, the main one right away is just

retaining our employees and understanding

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the wants and needs of those employees.

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as I continue to move forward, on my

journey here and understanding that,

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hey, the largest, the large ask in

my first year was that HRIS right?

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That we, mentioned earlier and,

that's not a cheap, thing to, ask for.

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And then also to explain that.

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we would ultimately save money due

to, the administrative burden, cost

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savings, that was huge right there.

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And then also being engineers,

being, supporting the engineering

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group, they wanted to say, okay,

then it would also help with that.

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as I mentioned earlier, the single source

of truth piece, that, was extremely

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important to everyone because we had

about four different systems that we

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were pulling from for simple data.

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And that's not, it's

not, effective, right?

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It's from a time perspective, or it's

just from a data integrity perspective.

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Because we can have data, here and here

about the same, piece of information,

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but a lot of those things were, issues

or concerns, as we were onboarding,

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the HRIS system and then also.

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Digitizing all of the paper files,

and, making sure they were gonna

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be accepted by, our new system and,

making sure we can create these files

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without having to scan one by one

and make it even more of a burden.

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yeah, it was an interesting process

and granted, I'll tell you that

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this was the first implementation

that I've done of a new system.

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From nothing.

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And then also on my own without

an HRIS analyst or team backing.

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So I'm project managing, I'm pulling in

our finance group, I'm pulling in our CEO.

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I'm pulling in everyone to make

sure that they're onboard and

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supporting an understanding

because finance here runs payroll.

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So I needed to make sure that they were on

board and they understood what was going

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on as well, so that I'm not just jumping

the gun and saying yes to everything

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and I'm just the boat too much.

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Thomas Kunjappu: I know it's hard to

like extrapolate necessarily, right?

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From your experience, like broadly,

give advice on on the different, like

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on if someone else was in a different

company trying to build an HR team

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from scratch and also get the But

I have to ask like specifically on

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the buy-in side and this concept of

hey, like proving to the executive

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leadership team that like your approach.

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versus being an administrative

center it's to bring value, right?

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And

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Dorian Rhodes: Right.

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Thomas Kunjappu: change the

conversation where, you're,

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seen as a profit center, right?

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it's a, it's an investment.

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These are investments that you wanna make.

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So how do you do that at, for a business

of this kind of smaller scale, right?

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Where it's, every dollar counts

in every environment, but

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certainly when you're, just.

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the first time investing

in an HR function, right?

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So it's like just scale to this

point, —it's not natural right?

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to keep investing in this How do

you do that from a, a daily, weekly,

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quarterly rhythm as an HR leader to

maintain that that conversation in a

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healthy manner with the executive team?

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

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So it's been a, an organic process.

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Of course, 'cause it's grown over the

last, It's during my time here and and

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it's continuing to grow as we uncover new

opportunities from the HR perspective.

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And, my advice, to, to someone that

would, be starting at maybe a HR of

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one, or of one and a half or two.

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you start by,

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the relationship is so important

and it doesn't have to be

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always just focused on work.

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On the professional relationship

because you're able to identify,

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key markers in someone's

personality by understanding them.

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Go in our office, look at pictures, look

at their diplomas on the wall, ask simple

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questions and the more you're, ingrained

or around stem, it's really around

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everyone, but STEM engineer, type minds.

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They will talk to you about what they do.

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vastly to the point where it's not ad

nauseum, but it's way over my head.

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'cause I'm not a STEM person.

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But I wanna know and understand

so I can speak the language

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and then two, be a business person first

and be that business person who happens

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to be an hr, subject matter expert.

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that adds so much value just right there.

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Just not quantitative obviously,

if you're able to sit at the table,

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make sure It'd be able to speak up

and say, Hey, I haven't, I have a,

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an idea about, this in WIP, right?

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work in progress, like,

how do we lower our WIP?

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And you're like, in, in the

past, we've done it this way.

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and it might not work in this

sense, but it might prompt

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conversation, it might prompt thought.

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And, I think that's helped add value

because I'm not just HR, the next

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piece is that I've been doing a lot

of outreach in the community to share

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about architectural engineering, right?

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I had no idea what architectural

engineering, is, was, all of it, right?

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And.

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now, I go to schools like, I

go to colleges, in the area and

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outside of this area, in North

Carolina and talk about this.

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M-E-P-P-M-E industry and people

get excited about it because we are

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the inner workings of a building.

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And, without us architects wouldn't

be able to do anything because we

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keep things within code and, I'll

digress on, our business, but it's,

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that is also a piece that helps us

because it helps with recruiting.

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It helps with branding and all of

this is, a culmination of helping

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us retain and attract new talent to

continue for another 60 plus years.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So knowing the

business is, it's part, like knowing

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the personal lives of the, of your

leadership and the team that you're

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working with to like really get connected.

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But it's also knowing the space

that you're working in, completely

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outside of the HR functions.

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And when you're talking about work in

progress, you're, I think what you're

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talking about is project delivery

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and sometimes

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Dorian Rhodes: correct.

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Thomas Kunjappu: or like you

are over resourced or you're

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under resourced for the amount

of stuff that you have going on.

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it's about understanding the

service or product in depth that

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you're working in so that you can

actually add to that conversation.

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Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

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Thomas Kunjappu: I love how you

brought that home with, it also

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applies in the HR world 'cause you're

able to connect with and drive,

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engagement on the recruiting front.

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If you're, the more, you are able to talk

to like fresh grads who are just going

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in through, some kind of like engineering

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Dorian Rhodes: Great.

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Thomas Kunjappu: can map what their.

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Studying to this particular,

function and company.

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Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

287

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Thomas Kunjappu: So if you're,

focus on knowing the business right?

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To drive, value.

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And then you're talking about

rolling up your sleeves and working

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on all these things, from almost

like first principles, I wonder.

291

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If you go beyond the crawling

stage, since you're, you've

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been doing this in, 2025, right?

293

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Primarily, has there been anything

surprising to you or anything that is

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distinct that, about the way you're going

about building out the function that you

295

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feel like you might be very different

from what you would've done if you were

296

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in the same position like a decade ago?

297

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or even five years ago?

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Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

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I'm all about, collaboration,

and in collaboration with my

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my client group.

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especially the leadership.

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And years ago I would always

make sure that I would run things

303

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by this collaborative, right?

304

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It's then to the point where

they're looking to you as

305

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being the SME here, right?

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The subject matter expert.

307

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And, you want to share,

and this is something I've

308

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learned about myself recently.

309

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you wanna share your insight and what

works well and what has worked well

310

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in the past, but at the same time,

you want to give, That client group,

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the opportunity to provide feedback.

312

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And most of the time they won't on the

spot because they'll just be shock and awe

313

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and listening, And then, later on you'll

get an email, a text, or what have you

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about, Hey, let's talk about this again.

315

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so to move the needle and to move forward,

it's like you have to make a decision

316

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and be prepared to fail fast, right?

317

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And be able to hop back up

and drive on after you have an

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opportunity or you have a new idea.

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from the executive group.

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and that's been tough because years ago,

as a newer greener, HR person, even though

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I came straight outta the military, I

should have been prepared for, that, that

322

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kind of like chain of command and being

able to provide feedback and take that

323

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feedback without, taking it personally.

324

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But years ago, I would, and I'd be

like, oh my gosh, I think I'm failing

325

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here, but in actuality I'm not.

326

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And I should learn from, the failure.

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And then say, okay, how can we

reverse engineer this to make this

328

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work for, the organization and a

lot of those skills and thoughts.

329

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And, I can remember a mentor years

ago, at a past company, a, global 60

330

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country organization, tell me that,

failing fast is a good thing because

331

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that means you were making an effort.

332

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And if you make an effort and

not everybody agrees with it,

333

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then that's a good effort.

334

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If you make an effort that everybody

agrees with, you should question it.

335

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Yeah, because that's not how

the life works in everyday life.

336

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Thomas Kunjappu: Do you have an example

or two that comes to mind that would

337

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like really bring this point home?

338

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'cause I feel like you're onto

something, practically It's

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people like mentally right?

340

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Needs to be HR leaders,

341

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Dorian Rhodes: you.

342

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Sure.

343

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Thomas Kunjappu: right?

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Like

345

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Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely

346

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Thomas Kunjappu: you like approach these,

conversations where, I can think of any

347

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number of things, —whether it's around

like recruiting approach or compensation

348

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philosophy or performance management

or investment in this tool or whatever.

349

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There's so many different possibilities

there, but tell me if I'm onto something

350

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here or not in terms of where you're

headed, but often there's an idea that

351

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as the HR leader, you are bringing

in a professional point of view an

352

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HR professional on how you should

approach this people related problem.

353

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And so how dare these CEOs or whatever,

FOS or COOs or VP of sales or marketing,

354

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whatever it is, how dare they have

this other point of view about

355

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managing, or whatever the particular.

356

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recruiting or whatever the thing is,

but like a shared responsibility.

357

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But yeah.

358

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Tell me how you you think about

navigating in that, 'cause ultimately

359

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it is still collaborative, right?

360

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Dorian Rhodes: It is.

361

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Yeah, absolutely.

362

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So there's two here I'll mention two.

363

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One is around recruiting, especially

like the career fair recruiting, right?

364

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So for such a long time we've had

our, business unit leaders at career

365

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fairs, being boots on the ground.

366

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and then I come in and I say, Hey,

in order to improve, I think we

367

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need to start looking at this.

368

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Or we need to start, really finding a way

to make, collecting resumes, more of a

369

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digital, kinda moving us forward, right?

370

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Instead of paper and then faxing or

scanning, we can do better than that.

371

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And,

372

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it's oh no, we can't do that.

373

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And then we write on the resume.

374

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So how do we do the notes?

375

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Hey, let's bring an iPad, let's

have an iPad and then scan the

376

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resume and then take notes that way.

377

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So we have some, just

that technology piece.

378

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And it also, helps, from the outside

looking in at us that, hey, they're

379

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technology, they're big on technology

there, and that's what, a lot of

380

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the students that are looking for

internships or full-time opportunities,

381

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they're like, okay, they're on board.

382

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that's one, and I know it was very light,

but secondly, this is what's still.

383

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very top of mind for me is, I just,

finished rewriting the framework

384

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for, performance management.

385

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So over the years we've had a

couple of different programs and

386

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we really wanna roll it out so that

there's value in it and that there's

387

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care and that people take time.

388

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And, since we are a hundred person firm

and we have leaders who wear many hats,

389

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the span of control is quite vast.

390

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Time is always gonna be a concern,

391

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I don't have time to do that.

392

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So that's where, I step in and say,

look, you have to make the time.

393

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Because if we want this to be important

for the organization and for our people

394

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and our people to know that we are

taking the time to understand how they

395

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want to grow and how they did last

year, and what are their new goals for

396

00:20:17,877 --> 00:20:23,937

2026, we need to set that time aside,

not answering emails, looking off, but.

397

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Focusing on these people.

398

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So creating those, those simple

white, white pages, FAQs to, to prompt

399

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conversation, and if the conversation goes

sideways, having, almost a rebuttal sheet

400

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where you could bring the conversation

back to, it's almost oh, it's almost

401

00:20:38,637 --> 00:20:39,837

like crucial conversations, right?

402

00:20:39,837 --> 00:20:43,167

But, I didn't use those, those,

analogies and things that you learn

403

00:20:43,167 --> 00:20:44,817

there, but, it's been difficult.

404

00:20:44,817 --> 00:20:46,807

But, I think the team gets it.

405

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And, I'm also trying to make sure

that we have executive sponsorship for

406

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all new initiatives because without

that executive sponsorship look

407

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Thomas Kunjappu: besides you?

408

00:20:58,898 --> 00:20:59,258

You mean

409

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Dorian Rhodes: correct.

410

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Yeah.

411

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if that

412

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

413

00:21:02,722 --> 00:21:06,642

Dorian Rhodes: like if our president

sends, sends a note first, that's

414

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what I told him this morning.

415

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I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna

send out this note about

416

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performance management next week.

417

00:21:11,562 --> 00:21:15,882

But I would love for this week, you

send out a precursor so that the group

418

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understands that, look, this is coming

from the top and this is important to us.

419

00:21:20,823 --> 00:21:22,053

and I'll help 'em draft it, right?

420

00:21:22,053 --> 00:21:23,583

To make sure we hit the key points.

421

00:21:23,793 --> 00:21:27,443

those things are extremely critical

for us, and they've been, helpful.

422

00:21:27,443 --> 00:21:30,683

So we'll see how the, how this

performance management round goes.

423

00:21:30,733 --> 00:21:33,463

it's the first one with, my

name stamped on it, right?

424

00:21:33,463 --> 00:21:34,123

lots of pressure, but.

425

00:21:34,783 --> 00:21:39,293

Hey, the, Paylocity, everybody got

paid, so hopefully I'll be two for two.

426

00:21:40,441 --> 00:21:42,571

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

427

00:21:42,811 --> 00:21:45,601

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

428

00:21:45,841 --> 00:21:48,511

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

429

00:21:48,511 --> 00:21:51,691

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

430

00:21:52,171 --> 00:21:54,781

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

431

00:21:54,781 --> 00:21:56,791

can all tHRive in the age of AI.

432

00:21:57,151 --> 00:22:00,136

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

433

00:22:00,566 --> 00:22:01,176

community.

434

00:22:01,801 --> 00:22:02,641

Now back to the show.

435

00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:04,010

Nice.

436

00:22:04,060 --> 00:22:07,540

so yeah, you're taking on these

like key initiatives one by one.

437

00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,415

another one, which is, I would

surmise, based on the, company

438

00:22:11,415 --> 00:22:15,835

context that's related to the,

performance is also succession planning

439

00:22:16,019 --> 00:22:16,349

Dorian Rhodes: Yes.

440

00:22:16,925 --> 00:22:18,695

Thomas Kunjappu: for an organization

like this, It's been around for a

441

00:22:18,695 --> 00:22:20,375

while and you have a lot of senior.

442

00:22:20,985 --> 00:22:26,275

leaders and there, there whole industries,

I think, throughout America where there's

443

00:22:26,275 --> 00:22:31,465

like this turnover, generation, not

turnover, but like a generational handoffs

444

00:22:31,514 --> 00:22:32,144

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

445

00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:34,795

Thomas Kunjappu: and especially

in certain industries.

446

00:22:34,835 --> 00:22:38,495

software engineering has like bled

talent, I would say from so many other

447

00:22:38,495 --> 00:22:40,265

parts of the engineering pipeline in.

448

00:22:40,265 --> 00:22:41,795

terms of college grads going in.

449

00:22:42,165 --> 00:22:47,585

and in a lot of industries you've seen

like the, Tenure, go grow older and

450

00:22:47,585 --> 00:22:52,829

older with every passing And then, with,

broadly speaking, baby boomers retiring.

451

00:22:52,829 --> 00:22:55,199

And in the midst of that, there

needs to be like a handoff.

452

00:22:55,499 --> 00:22:58,289

And you're in of your challenge, right?

453

00:22:58,339 --> 00:22:59,119

is that right?

454

00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,259

That handoff in this very

455

00:23:00,538 --> 00:23:00,938

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

456

00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:03,479

Thomas Kunjappu: industry, keeps

us like, keeps the, buildings from

457

00:23:03,479 --> 00:23:04,889

falling down over under us and keeps us

458

00:23:04,968 --> 00:23:05,218

Dorian Rhodes: That's it.

459

00:23:05,489 --> 00:23:06,179

Thomas Kunjappu: while

we're in there, right?

460

00:23:06,229 --> 00:23:07,789

so it's not going away.

461

00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:08,349

we need that.

462

00:23:08,449 --> 00:23:09,679

how do you think about that?

463

00:23:09,709 --> 00:23:13,059

Because there's so many folks in, HR

and I feel like that's like a unique,

464

00:23:13,109 --> 00:23:16,769

sub challenge that's probably available

for folks who are like, interested,

465

00:23:16,819 --> 00:23:17,089

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

466

00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:19,665

Thomas Kunjappu: was that a

big part of the draw for you?

467

00:23:19,665 --> 00:23:22,135

And also like how do you,

how do you navigate that, and

468

00:23:22,135 --> 00:23:23,125

what have you learned so far?

469

00:23:23,424 --> 00:23:23,874

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

470

00:23:23,874 --> 00:23:26,754

yes, it's a absolutely been a big

draw for me because it's, there's a

471

00:23:26,754 --> 00:23:31,564

lot of opportunity to, one, identify

those HiPos, within the organization,

472

00:23:31,564 --> 00:23:35,889

which, I feel like all of our leaders

spread across all of our office

473

00:23:35,889 --> 00:23:38,259

locations, probably has a file.

474

00:23:38,664 --> 00:23:42,564

In their drawer that says, this is my

HiPo, this is my HiPo, this is my HiPo.

475

00:23:42,864 --> 00:23:46,794

This is my 24 month, 36,

et cetera for this person.

476

00:23:46,974 --> 00:23:49,404

But also there's been a lot of,

hush conversations where it's

477

00:23:49,404 --> 00:23:52,744

I know we can't talk about when

you're gonna retire, but, it's, and

478

00:23:52,744 --> 00:23:53,824

they're like, Hey, can I ask 'em?

479

00:23:53,834 --> 00:23:54,554

absolutely not.

480

00:23:54,834 --> 00:23:57,504

during your review time, let's

talk about where where they wanna

481

00:23:57,504 --> 00:24:01,174

be, and it's have those open-ended

conversations, to be able to.

482

00:24:01,469 --> 00:24:02,189

understand it.

483

00:24:02,189 --> 00:24:06,304

And then also, we recently lost

a 40 year electrical engineer,

484

00:24:06,464 --> 00:24:07,904

critical for our business.

485

00:24:08,174 --> 00:24:09,644

And, he's been here since college.

486

00:24:09,644 --> 00:24:10,184

It's unbelievable.

487

00:24:10,844 --> 00:24:14,304

and we didn't have the opportunity,

it was just when I started as well.

488

00:24:14,634 --> 00:24:18,864

So I didn't have the opportunity

to say, Hey, we need to start,

489

00:24:19,174 --> 00:24:22,834

I need to request that headcount

now so that I will have time.

490

00:24:23,074 --> 00:24:26,404

The business will have time to do

a proper handoff or that business,

491

00:24:26,504 --> 00:24:27,704

so we don't have a business break.

492

00:24:27,754 --> 00:24:29,224

And just for business continuity.

493

00:24:29,474 --> 00:24:32,374

and the knowledge transfer, there,

there was a lot of, knowledge

494

00:24:32,414 --> 00:24:33,944

that was missed unfortunately.

495

00:24:34,214 --> 00:24:36,944

But, we were bouncing back

and, coming back from it.

496

00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:39,314

But we still have a little

bit of a gap, right?

497

00:24:39,314 --> 00:24:43,444

Where that, that's 40 years of just tribal

knowledge that, it's pretty impactful.

498

00:24:43,834 --> 00:24:46,894

So we're looking to, backfill that role,

especially in electrical engineering,

499

00:24:46,894 --> 00:24:51,854

which is a, a, a discipline that there's

not a lot of talent in, and anyway,

500

00:24:51,914 --> 00:24:54,014

there's a lot of reasons why Yeah.

501

00:24:54,210 --> 00:24:56,685

Thomas Kunjappu: sometimes in some

ways that's a gift horse and it's

502

00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,595

like organizations learn when, there's

a real, a moment of trauma or pain.

503

00:25:01,715 --> 00:25:02,075

Dorian Rhodes: Great.

504

00:25:02,285 --> 00:25:02,915

Absolutely.

505

00:25:02,971 --> 00:25:05,011

Thomas Kunjappu: always point to

that, like culturally, remember

506

00:25:05,011 --> 00:25:06,091

what happened, over there.

507

00:25:06,091 --> 00:25:10,321

So we, that's, you can always just,

that's shorthand for why we're like,

508

00:25:10,481 --> 00:25:12,101

Dorian Rhodes: we're

focused on it now, right?

509

00:25:12,251 --> 00:25:12,611

Yeah.

510

00:25:12,941 --> 00:25:14,561

Because we don't want

that to happen again.

511

00:25:14,561 --> 00:25:18,201

And now we have a list, of folks that

we look at our three to five year.

512

00:25:18,496 --> 00:25:23,306

and then we create a plan, for the

next 360 to say, okay, the next 365

513

00:25:23,306 --> 00:25:26,386

we're gonna, look at recruiting,

especially if it's a harder role.

514

00:25:26,606 --> 00:25:27,116

and I'll share it.

515

00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:28,886

I'll be like, look, there's

not a lot of people in this.

516

00:25:28,886 --> 00:25:33,096

And I'll, kinda share some market data

and some data around, who, who wants to

517

00:25:33,096 --> 00:25:37,296

move to some of our locations and how do

we really draw folks to these locations?

518

00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:40,956

we have an office in a, pretty

large college town that, the town,

519

00:25:41,416 --> 00:25:43,276

really quadruples in size during.

520

00:25:43,606 --> 00:25:45,946

During, the semester and

then outside of the semester.

521

00:25:45,946 --> 00:25:47,086

it's a ghost town almost.

522

00:25:47,386 --> 00:25:52,066

And so how do I draw people to

want to live in that area, because

523

00:25:52,066 --> 00:25:53,126

that's where we need talent.

524

00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:57,246

So that's been a huge hurdle in a, but

a fun, a fun thing as well, because it's

525

00:25:57,246 --> 00:26:01,556

okay, this is a needle in a haystack,

from a, from the talent perspective,

526

00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,726

but also to selling, this area, as well.

527

00:26:05,216 --> 00:26:06,416

so it's a fun challenge.

528

00:26:06,416 --> 00:26:08,756

I'll say maybe I'm a little

bit off for thinking it's a fun

529

00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:09,536

challenge, but I'll take it.

530

00:26:11,527 --> 00:26:11,707

Thomas Kunjappu: it.

531

00:26:11,707 --> 00:26:12,067

is.

532

00:26:12,117 --> 00:26:13,137

I don't think you're off there.

533

00:26:14,847 --> 00:26:17,997

and also the other side of the challenge

is also, I think equally interesting

534

00:26:18,027 --> 00:26:19,302

is the talent pipeline, right?

535

00:26:19,347 --> 00:26:22,017

You talked about a little bit with

college recruiting fairs, and actually

536

00:26:22,017 --> 00:26:25,317

maybe you have a built in advantage

being in a college town to, get folks in,

537

00:26:25,486 --> 00:26:25,786

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

538

00:26:26,337 --> 00:26:27,977

Thomas Kunjappu: got to

a set, set of colleges.

539

00:26:27,977 --> 00:26:30,507

But, is there, like, how, early in

540

00:26:30,507 --> 00:26:31,887

the pipeline do you feel

like you need to go?

541

00:26:31,887 --> 00:26:36,237

in terms of, there's some folks in

certain industries where they're like

542

00:26:36,237 --> 00:26:38,307

partnering much more deeply, right?

543

00:26:38,307 --> 00:26:39,537

With universities and,

544

00:26:39,601 --> 00:26:39,931

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

545

00:26:39,957 --> 00:26:41,757

Thomas Kunjappu: down to high

schools to like really draw

546

00:26:41,757 --> 00:26:45,777

talent, into the particular sector.

547

00:26:46,197 --> 00:26:48,492

what do you guys see it for you

and educate me a little bit on, I

548

00:26:48,492 --> 00:26:50,267

think is the phrase is MEP, right?

549

00:26:50,556 --> 00:26:50,856

Dorian Rhodes: Yes.

550

00:26:50,856 --> 00:26:51,456

MEP.

551

00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:52,206

Yep.

552

00:26:52,206 --> 00:26:53,406

Mechanical, electrical, plumbing.

553

00:26:54,537 --> 00:26:56,707

Thomas Kunjappu: What does that

look like to draw talent in

554

00:26:56,707 --> 00:26:57,847

this particular kind of field?

555

00:26:57,847 --> 00:27:01,167

And I wonder if that's like almost like

a subspecialty for HR professionals

556

00:27:01,167 --> 00:27:05,067

in the future where you're actually

getting, good at college and maybe

557

00:27:05,067 --> 00:27:06,597

even like high school partnerships to

558

00:27:06,706 --> 00:27:06,996

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

559

00:27:07,217 --> 00:27:09,847

Thomas Kunjappu: a flow, of the

right talent pipeline going.

560

00:27:10,071 --> 00:27:11,031

Dorian Rhodes: that,

that's a great question.

561

00:27:11,031 --> 00:27:15,346

and we focused on just that the

high school is our first step in.

562

00:27:16,006 --> 00:27:19,631

We utilize a lot of shadowing

opportunities where we bring

563

00:27:19,631 --> 00:27:23,236

college students in to let 'em

shadow for 48 hours to see if they

564

00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:24,526

like architectural engineering.

565

00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:28,596

'cause usually the career counselors

are saying, oh, are you interested

566

00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:29,646

in architectural engineering?

567

00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:30,756

Students are like, what?

568

00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:32,886

or they're like, oh, I hear architect.

569

00:27:33,006 --> 00:27:34,176

Yeah, I wanna be an architect.

570

00:27:34,176 --> 00:27:36,966

Or they just hear engineering and

they're like, no, I can't be an engineer.

571

00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:37,816

Or one or the other.

572

00:27:38,206 --> 00:27:40,966

bringing people in, letting

'em see what we're doing.

573

00:27:41,056 --> 00:27:44,816

And we have some really cool, BIM,

which is like building modeling and

574

00:27:44,816 --> 00:27:49,876

3D where you can see our efforts

and how we, work and what we do.

575

00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:52,856

And we can show examples and

then, they can shadow, a designer

576

00:27:52,856 --> 00:27:53,936

and engineer or project manager.

577

00:27:54,641 --> 00:27:57,491

And see what a day in

the life of looks like.

578

00:27:57,761 --> 00:28:01,741

And working with drawings and seeing,

going on site, doing punch lists, doing

579

00:28:01,741 --> 00:28:06,581

survey work, and, building that pipeline

from the grassroots, I'll say, in high

580

00:28:06,581 --> 00:28:08,561

schools, has helped us tremendously.

581

00:28:09,011 --> 00:28:12,351

also we have a, we have a tech school as

well, which, it's an extension of high

582

00:28:12,351 --> 00:28:14,901

school where there's architectural design.

583

00:28:15,481 --> 00:28:19,411

as a major, and we had a great

intern last year who was a senior

584

00:28:19,411 --> 00:28:20,461

in high school that would work.

585

00:28:20,461 --> 00:28:23,761

about 20 to 30 hours a week, during

the year and, during the year

586

00:28:23,761 --> 00:28:27,091

and during the summer, who is now

in college to be an electrical

587

00:28:27,091 --> 00:28:29,681

engineer from, technical vo-tech.

588

00:28:29,901 --> 00:28:32,631

and that's for my, maybe from

my generation that's different.

589

00:28:32,751 --> 00:28:34,521

'cause I'm used to, if you're

a vo-tech, you're gonna go

590

00:28:34,521 --> 00:28:36,021

to work right after school.

591

00:28:36,381 --> 00:28:37,241

But she was.

592

00:28:37,886 --> 00:28:38,906

Exemplary.

593

00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,116

And now she's, doing so well in college

and we're like, Hey, come back and intern

594

00:28:43,116 --> 00:28:46,486

whenever you'd and she's, she has that

open, that open invitation and she's

595

00:28:46,486 --> 00:28:48,166

gotta take us up on it and it's great.

596

00:28:48,226 --> 00:28:54,696

And, so from there we go to, the, two year

schools that, also focus on that, cad.

597

00:28:55,041 --> 00:28:59,121

Work or that BIM work and

architectural design as well.

598

00:28:59,121 --> 00:29:00,981

And we have conversations there.

599

00:29:01,011 --> 00:29:04,381

'cause we've hired directly from,

those schools as well where we've

600

00:29:04,381 --> 00:29:09,811

had folks start in that BIM CAD

technician role and grow to a designer.

601

00:29:09,811 --> 00:29:14,081

So like we bring, I bring those people

in and say, Hey look, talk to, employee

602

00:29:14,081 --> 00:29:17,781

X and he'll tell you his story because

he started, exactly where you are.

603

00:29:17,791 --> 00:29:20,316

and then from the university

side, Those relationships are so

604

00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:24,226

important, because, you have 400

plus employers at a career fair.

605

00:29:24,826 --> 00:29:26,656

It's so easy to get lost in the shuffle.

606

00:29:27,016 --> 00:29:30,456

I'm, and again, I don't wanna sound like

a broken record, but I'm used to being,

607

00:29:30,736 --> 00:29:34,047

the large organization who has the biggest

608

00:29:34,148 --> 00:29:34,718

Thomas Kunjappu: A big booth.

609

00:29:34,718 --> 00:29:35,048

Yeah.

610

00:29:35,097 --> 00:29:35,897

Dorian Rhodes: and now I'm in the middle.

611

00:29:36,572 --> 00:29:40,742

And looking down and seeing meta

seeing Ford, and I'm like, but we're

612

00:29:40,742 --> 00:29:44,132

still there representing and showing

what we're doing and we still get a

613

00:29:44,132 --> 00:29:47,882

lot of foot traffic because, people

are generally interested and we're

614

00:29:47,882 --> 00:29:50,982

always, trying to improve our presence.

615

00:29:51,482 --> 00:29:55,212

we bring, it's very simple, but we bring

a TV and we show, just these fly-throughs.

616

00:29:55,212 --> 00:29:58,492

We show what we do, and right away

people are like, oh, you're architecture.

617

00:29:58,492 --> 00:30:01,612

no, actually, without, we make

buildings work, that's our mantra.

618

00:30:01,702 --> 00:30:03,592

See it on our website,

and that's what we do.

619

00:30:03,982 --> 00:30:05,492

and it's super cool.

620

00:30:05,492 --> 00:30:10,202

And once you see the aha on, on

students' faces and they realize

621

00:30:10,202 --> 00:30:12,542

that, no, there's no such thing

as being recession proof, but.

622

00:30:13,312 --> 00:30:16,432

As long as we're continuing to

build more buildings, build more,

623

00:30:16,482 --> 00:30:23,322

commercial or residential or just like

revitalizing, areas or old factories.

624

00:30:23,422 --> 00:30:26,062

my building here, for

example, 1829 builds.

625

00:30:26,602 --> 00:30:28,912

It's the old gas factory

for this entire town.

626

00:30:29,332 --> 00:30:29,572

Now.

627

00:30:29,572 --> 00:30:30,232

It's our office.

628

00:30:30,232 --> 00:30:31,012

it's beautiful.

629

00:30:31,462 --> 00:30:31,612

Yeah.

630

00:30:31,612 --> 00:30:32,302

it's super cool.

631

00:30:32,988 --> 00:30:33,498

Thomas Kunjappu: Wow.

632

00:30:33,532 --> 00:30:34,012

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

633

00:30:34,072 --> 00:30:37,792

it, like right behind me used to be

these huge silos where they kept coal.

634

00:30:38,197 --> 00:30:39,232

And yeah, it's amazing.

635

00:30:39,232 --> 00:30:43,632

And now, it's 200 years plus later now

I'm in, in this office, in here talking

636

00:30:43,632 --> 00:30:46,532

about or talking about engineering

right in, in, architectural engineers.

637

00:30:46,532 --> 00:30:51,312

So it's cool too to bring folks here and

say, Hey, we designed this, from a shell

638

00:30:51,372 --> 00:30:53,082

and we have the photos of it as well.

639

00:30:53,082 --> 00:30:53,742

It's so cool.

640

00:30:53,952 --> 00:30:56,817

So yeah, it's, it's about

building that funnel.

641

00:30:56,867 --> 00:30:59,817

and I'll tell you, this is the

last piece on the talent attraction

642

00:30:59,817 --> 00:31:01,347

part that's near and dear to me.

643

00:31:01,677 --> 00:31:04,977

Look, I started my career in HR as a

recruiter, I'll always consider myself

644

00:31:04,977 --> 00:31:07,167

a recruiter slash HR generalist, right?

645

00:31:07,167 --> 00:31:09,397

Because that's, I love recruiting,

but granted, I don't wanna

646

00:31:09,397 --> 00:31:10,477

recruit day in and day out.

647

00:31:10,627 --> 00:31:12,007

That's, it's a little, that's a lot.

648

00:31:12,607 --> 00:31:19,777

But respect to those who do, But I love,

having the opportunity to talk about.

649

00:31:19,997 --> 00:31:23,717

our company, the fact that we're an ESOP

and we care about our people and all

650

00:31:23,717 --> 00:31:25,337

of our employees are company owners.

651

00:31:25,557 --> 00:31:28,952

and that might not be important to

those high school or, second year

652

00:31:28,952 --> 00:31:32,102

college students, but once you start

drilling it in and they're like,

653

00:31:32,162 --> 00:31:36,302

oh, so 401k, yes, we have that,

but we also have this ESOP piece.

654

00:31:36,302 --> 00:31:37,532

it's free money, right?

655

00:31:37,532 --> 00:31:39,812

As long as you're doing your job

and you're part of, you're part

656

00:31:39,812 --> 00:31:42,282

of the cause and you believe in

what we're doing, that's even more

657

00:31:42,282 --> 00:31:43,572

dollars for you in the long term.

658

00:31:43,572 --> 00:31:44,712

Nobody wants to work forever.

659

00:31:44,982 --> 00:31:46,092

So yeah, it's a little bit more.

660

00:31:47,283 --> 00:31:47,973

Thomas Kunjappu: that's great.

661

00:31:47,973 --> 00:31:51,663

I think we're really getting a picture

of how broad the remit ends up being.

662

00:31:51,833 --> 00:31:55,013

Of when with what you've

taken on here at the scale.

663

00:31:55,433 --> 00:32:00,173

So while I have you, then I

wanna talk about, maybe it's like

664

00:32:00,203 --> 00:32:02,423

the future of HR small company

665

00:32:02,573 --> 00:32:02,783

edition.

666

00:32:03,097 --> 00:32:03,387

Dorian Rhodes: Okay.

667

00:32:04,133 --> 00:32:07,223

Thomas Kunjappu: So what

do you think it looks like?

668

00:32:07,223 --> 00:32:11,293

So if we're reflecting five years,

down the line, for a company in this

669

00:32:11,293 --> 00:32:13,063

kind of employee size and range, right?

670

00:32:13,213 --> 00:32:17,833

there's differences based on industry

and location and all these different

671

00:32:17,833 --> 00:32:21,853

things, but, there are some things that

make, there's a reason an HR function

672

00:32:21,853 --> 00:32:23,293

isn't, is a whole, it's a function, right?

673

00:32:23,293 --> 00:32:26,053

And there's a set of things that

are common across organizations.

674

00:32:26,053 --> 00:32:28,003

So if you're thinking about

it from that perspective.

675

00:32:28,608 --> 00:32:29,898

what does that look like for you?

676

00:32:30,078 --> 00:32:37,658

What do you imagine that future proof

HR team, for small company edition,

677

00:32:38,077 --> 00:32:38,467

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

678

00:32:38,838 --> 00:32:40,788

Thomas Kunjappu: like what

skill sets are expressed?

679

00:32:40,788 --> 00:32:43,878

What's done more or less than

today, or how do you see it all

680

00:32:43,878 --> 00:32:45,768

coming together as we, move forward?

681

00:32:46,117 --> 00:32:46,717

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

682

00:32:46,717 --> 00:32:48,997

So I think a lot of it has to

do with first understanding

683

00:32:49,387 --> 00:32:51,337

the new generations, right?

684

00:32:51,337 --> 00:32:55,147

Because that's gonna really help

shape what HR looks like and

685

00:32:55,187 --> 00:32:57,887

what I've uncovered is that the.

686

00:32:58,707 --> 00:33:02,847

the new students that are graduating

and maybe even, between five years

687

00:33:02,847 --> 00:33:05,307

in graduation need a higher touch.

688

00:33:05,497 --> 00:33:09,567

and it might not necessarily be from HR,

but when they see HR, it's oh, we can

689

00:33:09,567 --> 00:33:11,277

have a regular conversation with you.

690

00:33:11,527 --> 00:33:15,307

I've had so many like of those experiences

as I'm visiting offices and checking

691

00:33:15,307 --> 00:33:17,137

in and just stopping and say hello.

692

00:33:17,402 --> 00:33:19,472

And of course we all know

HR as a stigma anyway.

693

00:33:19,522 --> 00:33:22,162

if we're coming over, they're looking

for the banker's box in my hand.

694

00:33:22,162 --> 00:33:25,262

And I'm like, no, come in here to

just say, hey, and find out about you.

695

00:33:25,262 --> 00:33:30,557

So I think in the future, I think

continuing the relationship side of HR

696

00:33:30,557 --> 00:33:34,827

is critical, for small organizations

because you're, yeah, you're a member

697

00:33:34,827 --> 00:33:36,367

of the leadership team, in a way.

698

00:33:36,367 --> 00:33:39,277

But at the same time, you need

to be an extension and almost

699

00:33:39,277 --> 00:33:40,867

like a liaison sometimes.

700

00:33:41,347 --> 00:33:44,407

So that folks feel comfortable

talking to you if they don't feel

701

00:33:44,407 --> 00:33:46,507

comfortable going to the ivory tower.

702

00:33:46,617 --> 00:33:49,117

And, I think that's been,

very helpful for me.

703

00:33:49,367 --> 00:33:52,587

in order to create that

psychological safety, with my folks.

704

00:33:52,777 --> 00:33:57,067

I think also we're obviously

gonna get more and more into, data

705

00:33:57,457 --> 00:33:59,927

and it, and everybody's talking

about, HR data analytics and

706

00:34:00,127 --> 00:34:02,717

being able to, decipher data from.

707

00:34:03,372 --> 00:34:07,492

whatever system and help the

organization understand, where we're

708

00:34:07,492 --> 00:34:11,802

gonna be, in Q1 next year versus

Q4 and then, look at the trends.

709

00:34:11,802 --> 00:34:13,992

Yes, of course that is

very important as well.

710

00:34:14,502 --> 00:34:17,112

But, I also think that a lot of these,

711

00:34:17,212 --> 00:34:22,652

I'll call 'em COE type roles

within HR can be, I don't wanna say

712

00:34:22,652 --> 00:34:24,612

pushed offsite, almost having that.

713

00:34:25,612 --> 00:34:29,252

that offsite help, or whether

it's like a third party, assisting

714

00:34:29,252 --> 00:34:30,882

in, projects here and there.

715

00:34:31,212 --> 00:34:34,402

Because while we're still focused on

people, that's my thought and vision

716

00:34:34,402 --> 00:34:39,282

on, how I feel HR is gonna look in five,

plus years because I think there will be.

717

00:34:40,306 --> 00:34:44,887

this, center of excellence of analysts

that just focus on that and they'll

718

00:34:44,887 --> 00:34:49,286

provide value, from the outside,

especially for smaller organizations,

719

00:34:49,437 --> 00:34:50,637

and that'll be a true partnership.

720

00:34:52,568 --> 00:34:53,558

Thomas Kunjappu: That's interesting.

721

00:34:53,558 --> 00:34:55,928

So with center of Excellence, I,

it sounds like you're putting all

722

00:34:55,928 --> 00:34:57,098

the different buckets in my mind.

723

00:34:57,098 --> 00:34:57,618

There's you Sure.

724

00:34:57,618 --> 00:35:00,458

People analytics, there's, compensation

725

00:35:00,717 --> 00:35:01,077

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

726

00:35:01,358 --> 00:35:02,618

Thomas Kunjappu: there's,

potentially performance L&D,

727

00:35:03,827 --> 00:35:04,037

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

728

00:35:04,087 --> 00:35:06,187

Thomas Kunjappu: and even just

like the service delivery of

729

00:35:06,187 --> 00:35:09,827

just, just the, support, all these

different centers of excellence.

730

00:35:09,827 --> 00:35:13,787

But I guess with a smaller

organization or smaller HR team.

731

00:35:14,957 --> 00:35:17,807

if I'm translating what you're saying,

maybe it's actually the fact that

732

00:35:17,807 --> 00:35:19,367

there's seasonality to the demand,

733

00:35:19,521 --> 00:35:20,151

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

734

00:35:20,391 --> 00:35:20,751

Very much

735

00:35:20,801 --> 00:35:24,031

Thomas Kunjappu: we have an end of year

project to get this, to analyze a ton

736

00:35:24,031 --> 00:35:25,981

of this data and we wanna present it.

737

00:35:25,981 --> 00:35:27,381

But that it's a two month project

738

00:35:27,655 --> 00:35:27,925

Dorian Rhodes: Right.

739

00:35:28,101 --> 00:35:29,421

Thomas Kunjappu: you

want a deeper skillset.

740

00:35:29,661 --> 00:35:30,411

It's not a full-time

741

00:35:30,411 --> 00:35:30,801

role.

742

00:35:31,641 --> 00:35:32,805

And where, you might go.

743

00:35:32,805 --> 00:35:33,010

And so then.

744

00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:35,970

Tell me more about, okay, so

what is the, that core then?

745

00:35:35,970 --> 00:35:38,500

So of, what is the full-time

kind of team, right?

746

00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:42,490

So you're, and especially if you

have someone alongside an HR leader,

747

00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:43,470

you're able to get that right?

748

00:35:43,470 --> 00:35:46,440

So what does that first person,

or if you have a team of two

749

00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:47,730

that's like full-time, it's a

750

00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:49,380

little bit flexible across these things.

751

00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:50,340

what do you think that looks like?

752

00:35:50,484 --> 00:35:50,804

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

753

00:35:50,804 --> 00:35:51,044

Yeah.

754

00:35:51,044 --> 00:35:54,684

I think there, there naturally needs

to be that HR leader in whatever

755

00:35:54,684 --> 00:35:57,424

title that that is I don't think

that really matters so much, but

756

00:35:57,664 --> 00:35:58,759

there needs to be that leader who is.

757

00:35:59,389 --> 00:36:03,769

in the room with the executive

group so they understand the vision,

758

00:36:03,769 --> 00:36:06,649

the movement of the organization

long term and intermediate.

759

00:36:06,649 --> 00:36:07,699

and short term obviously.

760

00:36:07,949 --> 00:36:08,849

I think that's critical.

761

00:36:08,849 --> 00:36:13,089

And then that has to be shared, with

your HR generalist slash business

762

00:36:13,089 --> 00:36:17,349

partner, because I think that is a

level that is boots on the ground

763

00:36:17,799 --> 00:36:19,779

hearing exactly what's happening.

764

00:36:20,059 --> 00:36:22,099

while, the leader could

be in a meeting for, a.

765

00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:24,229

Or executive retreat or what have you.

766

00:36:24,229 --> 00:36:27,309

the business is still humming, so

we need to always have a finger on

767

00:36:27,309 --> 00:36:28,719

the pulse and know what's going on.

768

00:36:29,229 --> 00:36:30,129

And so I think,

769

00:36:30,209 --> 00:36:31,379

those two pieces are important.

770

00:36:31,379 --> 00:36:34,059

And then there needs to be a

specialty, with both roles.

771

00:36:34,059 --> 00:36:36,039

the leader has to have a

specialty in something.

772

00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:39,549

whether that's, whether it's comp,

whether it's, talent management, and

773

00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,130

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

774

00:36:40,419 --> 00:36:40,899

Dorian Rhodes: say again.

775

00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:41,990

Thomas Kunjappu: Or recruiting

776

00:36:42,309 --> 00:36:42,879

Dorian Rhodes: Or recruiting.

777

00:36:42,879 --> 00:36:43,599

Exactly.

778

00:36:43,799 --> 00:36:44,369

so that.

779

00:36:44,999 --> 00:36:48,999

Look, you can do those things well,

maybe one or one to three things.

780

00:36:48,999 --> 00:36:52,809

and then you have your, your

generalist slash BP that can

781

00:36:52,809 --> 00:36:55,539

do one to two things well also.

782

00:36:55,659 --> 00:37:00,184

So then when we do, or if you do have

to go outside for a project or a, a

783

00:37:00,184 --> 00:37:05,504

contractual type, of a project, then

it's not a so big of a lift, and I

784

00:37:05,504 --> 00:37:07,374

mentioned before that, I'm a generalist.

785

00:37:07,854 --> 00:37:11,344

I would love my BP or my generalist

to be also that generalist that

786

00:37:11,344 --> 00:37:15,514

understands HR to the point of if

we have a contractual group that's

787

00:37:15,514 --> 00:37:19,624

helping us with a specific project,

we can also jump in to help shorten

788

00:37:19,624 --> 00:37:21,964

enlighten the load for that third party.

789

00:37:22,294 --> 00:37:24,154

Because then look,

that's more cost savings.

790

00:37:24,304 --> 00:37:27,294

And then, we actually have impact

and we help that third party

791

00:37:27,294 --> 00:37:31,254

understand what our culture is and

how to actually deliver the message.

792

00:37:33,110 --> 00:37:33,670

Thomas Kunjappu: I love that.

793

00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,570

one last follow up on this then,

794

00:37:35,779 --> 00:37:36,069

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

795

00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:38,700

Thomas Kunjappu: that's, if that's the

case and you're talking directly to.

796

00:37:39,325 --> 00:37:43,225

now not engineering graduates, but maybe

just college graduates who are interested.

797

00:37:43,975 --> 00:37:47,275

I'm not sure why, but crazy enough

to be interested in HR and getting

798

00:37:47,275 --> 00:37:51,575

into, in, into that function more

broadly, given that vision for what you

799

00:37:51,575 --> 00:37:53,135

imagine for at least in this context,

800

00:37:53,185 --> 00:37:53,515

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

801

00:37:54,316 --> 00:37:56,446

Thomas Kunjappu: like a right hand

person, what do you think are the,

802

00:37:56,666 --> 00:38:00,371

the skill sets or the, capabilities

that, such a person should stress?

803

00:38:01,136 --> 00:38:04,406

to get experiences around or

to, really start to get good at.

804

00:38:04,725 --> 00:38:05,445

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

805

00:38:05,635 --> 00:38:09,405

so I'm a believer of, spreading

your wings and not becoming so

806

00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:13,305

focused on one area, especially

in the beginning of your career.

807

00:38:13,615 --> 00:38:15,845

Because if you do that, then

you're almost, typecast.

808

00:38:16,495 --> 00:38:18,975

as that role, you may

love it, which is great,

809

00:38:19,515 --> 00:38:23,835

but still have that variety because

that will only help you in the future.

810

00:38:24,105 --> 00:38:26,165

Because if you have enough to, to

811

00:38:26,705 --> 00:38:31,495

form a foundation in talent management,

in compensation, in benefits, that

812

00:38:31,495 --> 00:38:33,835

makes you a real well-rounded HR person.

813

00:38:33,835 --> 00:38:35,395

And then find your path.

814

00:38:35,825 --> 00:38:39,810

a great example, just really quickly,

a, former, rotational program.

815

00:38:40,135 --> 00:38:42,345

person that I went tHRough,

a similar program with,

816

00:38:43,005 --> 00:38:44,895

just was in a compensation role.

817

00:38:45,165 --> 00:38:47,895

He moved up to manager and he's

been a manager for about five

818

00:38:47,895 --> 00:38:49,395

years at a larger organization.

819

00:38:49,875 --> 00:38:53,255

Just, let me know that he's

now the manager of HR business

820

00:38:53,255 --> 00:38:54,395

partners for an entire BU,

821

00:38:55,235 --> 00:38:56,195

completely different.

822

00:38:56,195 --> 00:38:56,495

Yeah.

823

00:38:56,765 --> 00:39:00,535

And he's like an analytical person,

but I think over the years of leading

824

00:39:00,535 --> 00:39:01,915

people, he's what, I can do this.

825

00:39:01,915 --> 00:39:02,555

And I always knew he could.

826

00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:03,970

he's very good with people.

827

00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:05,070

And, it was cool to see.

828

00:39:05,070 --> 00:39:06,960

So I think that's a great example.

829

00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:10,610

he, I'll never forget it when we were

going through that program, he would

830

00:39:10,610 --> 00:39:14,520

always say, I don't think being,

the face of HR is what I wanna do.

831

00:39:14,910 --> 00:39:16,170

I wanna be in the background.

832

00:39:16,170 --> 00:39:17,580

I love, the data.

833

00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:21,780

I love working with comp, I love working

with talent management, on the design

834

00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:24,150

side and let it let somebody else execute.

835

00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:24,415

And now.

836

00:39:25,415 --> 00:39:28,495

He is, he's leading the charge

for, I think 14 business

837

00:39:28,495 --> 00:39:30,065

partners, across the globe.

838

00:39:30,065 --> 00:39:31,760

And I'm like, wow, look how things change.

839

00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,135

he's a great example of just, he did a lot

of things that he did not enjoy at first.

840

00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:39,540

But now that he sees the full

picture, it's similar to myself.

841

00:39:39,540 --> 00:39:41,670

I saw the full picture from recruiting

842

00:39:41,940 --> 00:39:45,910

to, student being an orientation

specialist, to, to being a,

843

00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:49,280

a benefit specialist and,

working with brokers nonstop.

844

00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,260

and now, being that business partner and

being the right hand to, the operations

845

00:39:53,260 --> 00:39:55,040

groups and now, leading the group.

846

00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,820

I'm like, this is a culmination of.

847

00:39:57,085 --> 00:40:00,955

all of my experiences over the years

and not to mention, some of my Army

848

00:40:00,955 --> 00:40:04,045

leadership gets in there as well,

but that's the selfless service side.

849

00:40:05,051 --> 00:40:05,431

Thomas Kunjappu: I'm sure.

850

00:40:05,611 --> 00:40:06,181

you for.

851

00:40:07,281 --> 00:40:09,641

going through that, like that,

I guess philosophy, right?

852

00:40:09,641 --> 00:40:13,161

You have around, keeping and maintaining

that flexibility and like holding onto it

853

00:40:13,161 --> 00:40:13,671

like early

854

00:40:13,965 --> 00:40:14,125

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

855

00:40:14,751 --> 00:40:15,141

Thomas Kunjappu: explicitly.

856

00:40:15,521 --> 00:40:20,191

a as you go along to be relevant both

on the future proof junior rungs as

857

00:40:20,191 --> 00:40:24,181

like a new, new, being relatively new

in your career, as well as how that

858

00:40:24,301 --> 00:40:28,331

naturally gets you along the way towards

leadership roles in, in the future.

859

00:40:28,430 --> 00:40:28,720

Dorian Rhodes: Sure.

860

00:40:28,821 --> 00:40:31,191

Thomas Kunjappu: it's been a

fascinating conversation about just

861

00:40:31,191 --> 00:40:35,331

this, massive jump that you've made

and, in terms of employee size and,

862

00:40:35,331 --> 00:40:35,601

but

863

00:40:35,705 --> 00:40:35,995

Dorian Rhodes: Yeah.

864

00:40:36,141 --> 00:40:38,121

Thomas Kunjappu: just the

proxy for the actually what it

865

00:40:38,121 --> 00:40:39,171

is that you're doing, right?

866

00:40:39,441 --> 00:40:43,161

And in some ways all the exposure and

all the different types of things that

867

00:40:43,161 --> 00:40:46,581

you're doing across all these different,

organizations and sub-functions within

868

00:40:46,581 --> 00:40:51,201

HR helps prepare you, for this kind of

broader generalist point of view right?

869

00:40:51,201 --> 00:40:52,551

Towards, the function that you.

870

00:40:53,261 --> 00:40:54,421

Have to, take on,

871

00:40:54,530 --> 00:40:55,190

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

872

00:40:55,531 --> 00:40:57,251

Thomas Kunjappu: given,

the size and scale.

873

00:40:57,291 --> 00:41:00,531

but I think that is, something

that, it's could be very interesting

874

00:41:00,531 --> 00:41:01,581

for a lot of HR leaders, right?

875

00:41:01,581 --> 00:41:06,421

Is to go in, go smaller, and then think

about how you can, build appropriately

876

00:41:06,421 --> 00:41:11,851

to your point about having general

skill sets internally, and then the COEs

877

00:41:11,851 --> 00:41:13,711

might be a luxury almost that you do

878

00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:14,270

Dorian Rhodes: Exactly.

879

00:41:14,671 --> 00:41:15,991

Thomas Kunjappu: until a later scale

880

00:41:15,991 --> 00:41:18,091

and then, but you're able

to supplement in key pieces.

881

00:41:18,836 --> 00:41:22,710

with, third parties and with

a generalist team, being able

882

00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:23,670

to supplement them, right?

883

00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:25,730

So to make things efficient, I

884

00:41:25,814 --> 00:41:26,134

Dorian Rhodes: Absolutely.

885

00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,820

Thomas Kunjappu: process and I

think it's a very fascinating

886

00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:29,900

industry that you're in.

887

00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:34,690

It's it is a kind that, I feel like the

broader economy and the labor market

888

00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:38,500

needs to flow more people towards future.

889

00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:40,290

Proof, like the, the work rate.

890

00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:44,170

It's, There, there's some kind of like

hard work around, what it takes to build

891

00:41:44,170 --> 00:41:48,670

a building that is gonna take, a lot

more time for AI to directly get in front

892

00:41:48,670 --> 00:41:50,580

of, and we need good people, in there.

893

00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:52,220

I feel like it's an easy sell, right?

894

00:41:52,220 --> 00:41:55,490

Probably what you're doing on

the recruiting front, but I think

895

00:41:55,490 --> 00:41:56,750

it's a, it's an interesting field.

896

00:41:56,930 --> 00:41:58,580

So thank you for the conversation, Dorian.

897

00:41:58,610 --> 00:41:58,760

It's

898

00:41:58,944 --> 00:41:59,484

Dorian Rhodes: Thank you.

899

00:41:59,870 --> 00:42:04,850

Thomas Kunjappu: pretty interesting for

HR leader more broadly, but certainly

900

00:42:04,850 --> 00:42:09,450

for anyone who is looking to, considering

leading one up right for the, or building

901

00:42:09,450 --> 00:42:13,550

one from scratch, almost, a lot of

practical, tools and, takeaways here.

902

00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:17,000

So with all that said, for everyone

who's listening along, thank you for

903

00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,050

that and your attention, and good luck

as you're future proofing your own

904

00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:23,780

organizations and your own HR functions.

905

00:42:24,110 --> 00:42:25,040

See you on the next one.

906

00:42:27,859 --> 00:42:30,919

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

907

00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:33,769

If you like the discussion, make

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