In the show’s 100th episode, Beau Weaver and Elizabeth Jurgensen, two long-time friends, lead the conversation and interview me. We celebrate the strength, resilience, and wisdom that people build together in relationships.

We start with our strange meeting, almost 20 years ago, and significant moments in a friendship that has shaped our lives in ways still emerging.

Reflecting on the importance of communicating with care, we unpack the value of listening and supporting without a compulsion to change or fix. By letting go of predetermined outcomes, we can explore without an attachment to resolution, and be satisfied if it never comes.

Embracing the “yes and,” we improvise, duck and roll, pivot, and thrive in the unpredictable.

A non-linear life trajectory can seem like a collection of random choices. But, when we pinpoint what drives us, seemingly unrelated events make sense, and feed the next chapter of the story. You don't have to know the way. The way knows the way.

Beau closes with a thought from Maria Popova: Believe in the part of you that cannot be destroyed by the agonies of hope. And adds: Trust in what is flowing through you.

TESS’S TAKEAWAYS:

Embrace the “Yes and.” Stay open to possibilities.

Acknowledge that identity is co-created, and choose your people wisely.

You’ll always be too much for the wrong people; never too much for the right ones.

Trust in your offers and share them.

Sometimes the right teacher for a third grader is a fourth grader.

Your vulnerabilities and mistakes are medicine for others.

Act with boldness and humility by trusting yourself and doubting yourself.

Enjoy being in the middle of the story.

ABOUT BEAU WEAVER

A voice actor for over 50 years, Beau got his first on-air radio job at 15. He quickly worked his way onto popular music radio stations in Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas and Houston in the ‘60s and ‘70s. Then, became the signature voice for dozens of major-market network affiliates.

From there, he spent decades as one of America’s perennial "A list" announcers, voicing movie trailers, network TV promos and shows, documentaries, commercials, and was the live announcer for Hollywood awards shows. With lead roles in animated TV series, Beau portrayed Superman in the ‘80s, Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four in the ‘90s, and was one of the original Transformers.

A technical innovator, Beau is widely credited with pioneering the practice of home recording for voice actors, sharing his studio tools and techniques with the entertainment community. The numerous awards he’s won include “Best Voiceover” from PromaxBDA and the “Body of Work” award from the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences.

Beau retired recently, and he and Elizabeth relocated from California to Oregon to begin a new chapter.

ABOUT ELIZABETH JURGENSEN

With a thirst for learning and achieving, Elizabeth has had multiple careers applying herself to education, research, and disciplined practice.

Her post-college years were focused on the performing arts, as an actress and dancer. Moving to the corporate world, she got a business degree and worked in finance. Her next pivot was to work as a fitness instructor and wellness coach.

Discovering her love for academics, she went back to school, getting a Master’s degree in a new field and teaching college students.

Debilitating injuries from a car accident and ten years’ rehabilitation, made her work impossible, and brought Elizabeth to the next major phase of her life. She embraced somatics, exploring trauma healing, relational dynamics, and embodied awareness.

A certified somatic educator, Elizabeth integrates insights from ancient archetypes, women’s wisdom traditions, and the interplay of masculine and feminine energies. She shares what she knows in adaptive and informal ways to guide others.

MEET TESS MASTERS:

Tess Masters is an actor, presenter, health coach, cook, and author of The Blender Girl, The Blender Girl Smoothies, and The Perfect Blend, published by Penguin Random House. She is also the creator of the Skinny60® health programs.

Health tips and recipes by Tess have been featured in the LA Times, Washington Post, InStyle, Prevention, Shape, Glamour, Real Simple, Yoga Journal, Yahoo Health, Hallmark Channel, The Today Show, and many others.

Tess’s magnetic personality, infectious enthusiasm, and down-to-earth approach have made her a go-to personality for people of all dietary stripes who share her conviction that healthy living can be easy and fun. Get delicious recipes at TheBlenderGirl.com.

CONNECT WITH TESS:

Website: https://tessmasters.com/

Podcast: https://ithastobeme.com/

Health Programs: https://www.skinny60.com/

Delicious Recipes: https://www.theblendergirl.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theblendergirl/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theblendergirl/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/theblendergirl

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tessmasters/

Thanks for listening!

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Hey everybody, this is it has to be me. But in this case, it had to be test masters. It had to be and this is the 100th episode of this podcast. And so Tess, I think this might actually be a thing, you know, and so, so the people watching might be when, who are these people and what is happening

here? And the truth is, we have no idea. Elizabeth has been on this podcast and and she shared with you that she was a little uncomfortable because she doesn't have a website or a seminar or a book or, you know, anything to sell, and neither do I. So why are we here, you know, and why, why are we on this on

the 100th anniversary of this podcast? Well, I I think it's because somehow the three of us have this extraordinary relationship that we can't explain. And so what we're going to do is do What? What? I think Tess, one of your therapists, has called, we're going to explore it using longhand rather

than shorthand. You know, all over the the web, especially in the wellness world, it's all shorthand, you know, it's, it's the, the one word that made this person a leader, or the three things, you know, it's like condense it into a short little thing that the algorithm can parse, you know. But what you've

been doing on this podcast is real is long form, with people really exploring the nooks and crannies of whatever you happen to be focusing on. And I think that's, I think that's what we're doing here.

So what nooks and crannies are we going to explore Tess's nooks and crannies

we're we're going to explore a lot of Tess's nooks and crannies and and and we're going to explore some of the nooks and crannies of our relationship and and why, why we're here. Does that make sense to you? Tessie, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm I'm just, I'm going with it, and we always have such beautiful conversations, and I feel so safe and seen with you, and that's what makes great relationships, yeah,

well, I might ask you to recall and remember when you and I first met, because there was something about that meeting where we saw each other,

you know? Yeah, it was, um, was unlike anything I've ever experienced before. You and I have spoken about this, I can't, I don't really understand it. I can't put it into words. And it was magical and beautiful. And I, when I was living in America, I had never recorded myself. I'd always been

a really coddled voice actor who'd gone into the studio, and, you know, over the years, we know that's changed, and most people are recording at home now. And so I was very nervous about that, so I got into my first chat room online, asked a question about a microphone, and you answered me, and I didn't

know who you were, and you're very kind, and I bought this microphone that you told me to buy, and then I looked you up and went, Oh, he's one of the biggest voice actors in the world. And so I many months later, I went to a voiceover conference, and you were sitting on one of the panels, and you

were really demystifying and sort of, you know, taking the veneer off of, you know, being some successful voice actor, be like guys, you know, just do what you love. You were just really approachable and wonderful. I sort of had this feeling in my heart like I knew you and, you know, of course, at

the end of the panel, everybody swarmed you, and there were, you know, 100 people waiting to talk to you and wanting to, you know, make connections. And, you know, all the things we do with those things, but I feel so uncomfortable doing that I'd never do it. So I just stood at the back of the room, and I was

just watching you and sort of listening to what was coming up in my heart. I thought, oh, gosh, I really feel a connection to you, but I didn't feel comfortable going up to you. I thought maybe you would think it was weird. I mean, you know all the things we think you know, we second guess ourselves, we don't

trust our instincts. And you just looked over at me, and I was like, I'd been hit by a stun gun or something. And you just turned to everyone and said, Excuse me, but there is a lady over there that I must speak with. And you just walked straight towards me. And you walked up and said, Hello again,

and and I went, and I went, hello. And you said, we know each other, yes. And I said, Yes, yes, you I asked you about the microphone.

I went straight into that, and you went,

you just kept really calm, and you just said, Yes, but we know each other. Hello again. And I just spontaneously, my hand found my way up to my heart and

and that was it. I just knew that I knew you before and, and

we've been dear friends ever since, and we just went straight into emotional intimacy. It was just like we picked up from another life or something. Is that how you

would explain it? Absolutely and see, I don't know anything about other lives. I mean, I'm having trouble enough with this one, you know, but, but there was a familiarity that we couldn't understand, like, Oh, we're, you know, we're, we're not starting at the beginning. We're starting in the

middle of a conversation. And that's the way it's been, as as we've discussed life and relationships, and somehow we have and as you drew Elizabeth into our relationship, we've always had, had the the ability to instantly go deep, you know, you know, like, like, when We haven't seen tests for a long

time, and she's getting out of her car before the hugs have even happened. So in therapy, I've discovered that, you know, I mean, it's already starting, you know, and that might be really tedious for a lot of people, but that's just somehow the way we roll,

yeah, and I like to jump in here for just a moment, because I I remember Beau coming home from that conference, because I think you were gone for like, maybe an entire weekend or something, and you came home and you were talking about this woman test that you met. But you, the way

you described that sort of energy between the two of you was exactly what both of you just said that. He said, I saw her, and it's like I knew her, I knew her, and I knew we were going to be friends, and I knew we had a connection that went way back. And I said, Well, who is she, you know, and I didn't

feel threatened or anything, but it was just interesting to me. But I remember even in the way he described it, just how taken he was by that instant connection, not attraction, connection. And I think one of the things I just want to put out there right at the beginning of this episode is this is a

little weird to have three people you know, in a very close friendship. Usually it's two couples, or it's the women or friends and the men's or men are friends, or something like that. But we've developed this really beautiful sort of way of dancing with the three of us that feels it feels like home. To me, in a

lot of ways, it feels like family. I've never felt threatened or or weird, and since I'm the one talking, do you want me to tell the story of how Tess and I got close?

Yes, and, and, but first, let me just say how much I appreciate the fact that you didn't have a jealousy response, because most women would, because of the intensity of of our connection, and that that gave me the freedom to to be close friends with Tess, and then at a certain point, she

drew you in, and that's what you were going to

tell Yeah, yeah. I actually, after you guys had actually known each other, I don't know, couple years, two or three years, yeah, I had stopped teaching, and I was kind of looking like, what could I do from home? You know, as I've spoken about in the other episodes I've done with you,

I've been in a car accident. I had a severe back injury. I couldn't really work full time anymore, but I thought, Oh, I'm an actress. I can read, I could do audio books. So I, I took an audio book class, you know, on on doing that particular style and recording it. And your partner at the time was teaching

it. And so the four of us met afterward, and that was where I actually met you. And we went to your house, and you were in the kitchen developing recipes right for your first book. I think you had the publishing contract, but you didn't have the book wasn't out yet, but I remember, you know, watching you and Bo the

way you interacted, and I was like, Oh, yeah. So. It in person. I was like, Oh yeah, I really get it. And also the way you were so, like, Elizabeth, come be with us. Come be part of this. You know, you really didn't just make it the Bo and test show you really included me. And then I want to say,

maybe a few months after that, Bo went to some other conference, and you called me and said, I would like to get to know just you between the two of us together. Would it be okay if I came and spent the weekend with you in Ojai, where we were living? And I said, Absolutely, and we did the same thing as you

and Bo. We just dove deep. We ate a lot of ice cream.

It was all your favorite flavors, and introduced this one to you and this one to you. And I think we had three of them open

at once, at one time. Yes, yes. I introduced you to all the non dairy delicacies of ice cream, and we just did. We really opened our hearts to each other, and since then, it's really been one of the real treasures of my life to have you as a close friend and to have this three way

relationship, but also to have what you and I have between the two of us, woman, woman to woman, which has been just like I say, just a real treasure in my life. So for our audience, that's how we all came to know each other and develop this little interesting, triangular relationship. Yeah, I've

said to a few people that I don't think anyone, besides a couple of therapists that we've worked with, knows us as a couple knows all of us, including the really the parts that we really don't want anybody else to see. You know you've you've been with us and held us and loved us through

working through some really difficult shit, you know, and and we've had some some really difficult things to work through, but you've been in it with us. And that's not a privilege.

It is. It has been in years, because you let me you let me in. I don't take that for granted,

and you did the same with us. You also shared with us very deeply your journey through a couple of partnerships and oh god, yeah, changes in. You know, where you were going with your career and all of your doubts and fears and shames, and so that's why I say it's just, it's just a treasure

to me. I hold it very, very carefully, because I know how unique and beautiful this is. And so just, I'm just thrilled to share more of you through our lens with the people listening and watching.

Well, I gotta tell you special

relationship. Yeah, if I

could ask anybody to help people see me, I would want it to be through your eyes. And I think one of the many things that makes our relationship special is that there has never at any point been

a carelessness between us. We always hold each other with such care and love. And you know, as we've spoken about many times, there is a carelessness that is pervasive in the world. Yes, and you saying that, you know when we connect, the connection feels like home. It does. It feels

like it is of me, even though it is other to me. But there is a place that we meet that is safe, it's familiar, it's loving, it's wise, it's forgiving, it's allowing. I feel like that day where we all danced as monsters. I said I felt like I felt like I wanted too much and I was too greedy and too ambitious, and I

wasn't content, and I was always looking for the next thing. And and you just went, I'm a monster. And you went, Oh, we

love your monster. You

want to dance with our monsters.

Let's all be monsters. It was? It was a real turning

point for me in terms of the way that I hold my insatiable desire, my desire for life, desire for love, desire for more, desire.

Well, I. I still think that there was a time that maybe one of my comments was a little careless and, and you know what that comment was?

Oh, the fire hydrant. One

holding on to that, being with Tess is like getting a drink of water out of a fire hydrant and, and that fed into that, I'm too much

thing, but it was always there, Bobo, it was always there. It I knew exactly what you meant when you said that, when you said low I imagine that loving you and we were talking about intimate partnership. I imagine that loving you is like getting a drink from a fire hydrant,

right? Yeah, and I, I really did not take it that way, because I have lived with, you know, the I'm not enough story. I always thought they were opposites when I was much, much younger, and now we realize that they're right there, and it's just a different manifestation of that concept of I have to be

different in order to be loved, right? And because I know that you love me, and even though we are not blood relatives, I do feel in my heart unconditional love from both of you, that I can completely be myself because we are not careless with each other, that if there at any point, there was a time when one

of us said something that really wounded the other, I feel like when you were ready, you would, you would come to me, and we would talk it through with love. And I don't know many other non familial relationships that I could say that about. I don't know about the two of you how you feel about that.

I think, I think that's true. I'm remembering a time sitting in our living room where Bo and I had been having a hard time in our in our relationship, and we'd also been doing some work with a therapist and and gained a certain dynamic understanding about who we were, that we were

kind of opposites In the way that we approached conflict and and sometimes even just life in general. And I remember, I remember it very clearly. You paused for a moment and you said, you, you asked for permission. You said, can I be really honest with the two of you? And we said, yes, because

we we respect your and trust your reflections and insight. But like you said, you weren't careless. You very carefully chose your words about what you were seeing with us, and I could, I could feel literally, the love just coming out of your body as you said it. And you even had tears in your eyes

because you wanted us to win. You wanted us to be okay. And I think that's something that we bring in this relationship the three of us is we so want all three of us to thrive and fully be who we are and be seen and held by at least one other person in that that way of being. And I will never forget

that moment, because I remember Bo and I even just looked at each other, and we both kind of breathed out for a moment, and we were like, Okay, we see it now. You know your reflection, but we see it a yes, you're right, but you took such care in the way you expressed it, and it just meant the world to me. And

I also felt very safe having you see that really messy, ugly moment between us and where we were struggling. And again, I think, like Beau said, That's very unusual. It's unusual even in families, yeah, to really let each other be seen at that debt depth and trust that any reflection we get back will be

from the heart, not to fix or to be the expert, but to just be this is what I see. So I just share that story as, again, something that I treasure you know about, yeah,

but to your point, we all participate in that and create that dynamic and that well of trust in that I could have chosen my words very carefully and given my offer, and I still could not control how it was received. Well, that's true, and that is the dance of intimacy that is is

about receiving and you were you chose in that moment to receive it that way. And so I. I'm grateful for the way that you receive my offers, the way that you receive me, and all the parts of me, and, you know, we use, I use that term ugly. I'm a monster, you know, all those parts that are messy, but in

that moment, because I remember that conversation very vividly. And I was sitting in that beautiful chair that I love so much. In the living room, we always assume the positions. And Bo has over there, you're always on the big couch. You're with Rudy always, you know, we were always, kind of found our little

little corners of the room, so to speak. And that was mine, and I always felt safe in that space, but it wasn't ugly. It was too beautiful, flawed people like we all are figuring it out.

That's all we need, more than just us as a couple. You know, all couples do and individuals do we? You know, we talk about how we're living in in this culture of late stage capitalism, some writer I read recently said that we're also living in late stage individualism, and we're all

suffering from that. Yes, but couples need other people in, you know, and at one point we had extended families and and, and, you know, people that were in our lives forever, you know that we could trust, and sometimes what you need is a trusted friend who is just going to listen, not tell you things

or advise you, or just the depth of their presence makes you feel like it's going to be okay, like it will pass. And most people don't have that, and if they do, you know they're paying, paying $225 an hour for a 50 minute hour. You know, it's professionalized. It's not, not, as Elizabeth said, and as you

said, Tess like family, right?

And I think too, as a couple other people often view couples, and I've experienced this as a as a couple, as number one, as a unit. They don't you see us as the unit that we are, but you also see us as the individuals that we are, and you love us in the way that I need you to love

me, and Beau needs you to love him. It's not like I love Bo and Elizabeth run together. It's like I love Bo and I love Elizabeth and I love who they who they are as a couple, as well as who they are individually and often, often. And I know this is just fear and often not knowing what to do.

But friends of a couple, when the couple is having a hard time, they kind of back away. They're kind of like, ooh, that's not my business. Yeah, it's not my business. This is between the two of you. Maybe you need to see somebody. And as a couple, I'm usually very reluctant to share deep,

intimate things about what might be going on in my relationship, because that is going to be the response, or it's going to be a bunch of advice, instead of just presence and listening, where you have been able, like, even in your visits, like, like, I know there's been a couple of times you visited that we've

there's been Tension, you know, with us, or we are just coming out of a period of conflict. So we're, we're very tender. And you've just been like, it's okay, I'm just here. We're just all in this together. You know, nobody had, we didn't have to put on a performance. You weren't trying to be like the

perfect guest so not to upset us or anything. Again, there's, there's an ease because of the trust between us that I don't think couples get a lot from their friends, and it's very supportive than not needing anything. Because we also experience this. A lot of people think, Oh, these guys are, like,

the perfect couple. So then we need to, then we feel like, well, I guess we better pretend like we're the perfect couple,

you know. And now let's pretend. Now we're into pretending and keeping, you know, up, you know, up front of some sort, right? Because we think it's expected, right?

And so the relationship has a shallowness to it, and and we are, you have allowed us to just be where we're at as a couple, when you visit, or when you when you come and stay with us, or when we talk on the phone and do FaceTime altogether that I just It helps me relax. I don't have

to be like Beau's wife or, you know, I can say we just. You know, had a fight, and so we're kind of tender right now. And you're like, that's okay. I'm here. Tell me about it. Yeah, tell me about it. And we don't get that from other people.

Thank you. I You do the same thing for me. I am thinking about this beautiful line in one of my favorite movies, same time next year, Alan Alder and Ellen Bernstein, which is a very unconventional love story of this couple that meet every the same weekend, every year for decades when

they're married to other people. And in the final little chapter of it, he says to her, you've always been able to see right through me. And she just smiles and says, Well, I've always loved what I've seen, and I feel that way about you. Always loved what I've seen, the the the courage and the vulnerability

and the acknowledgement that I don't know everything, and I am struggling right now, and at the same time, I also have the capacity to meet you with what's going on for you exactly. And I think that that's another big piece of this is that we choose all three of us to have enough capacity for each other in

whatever dynamic we find each other in. You know, whether it's the two of you and I'm a little bit over here, or whether it's the three of us playing together, you know, it's as we've been constellating around, this acknowledgement that a threesome, you know, in any capacity, it's not even you know

that you know what I mean, just by virtue of the fact that it's not two and two, It's not three and three or you know, so there's something about that, that dance of being able to be fully present in the change that occurs with the energy. And because you're both so intuitive, and you read the

room, you read my room, just my solo room, and these very subtle shifts in what's going on for me actually helps me to hold you. So we are holding and sharing and leading and knowing and following all at the same time, and I think that that's that's one of the many things that allows us to put on our scuba

gear and dive to depths that we may not have been been to with that particular piece of the experience, that's right, and and I think that's something, if I recall so many of our conversations there is that acknowledgement that it's not fully formed, like What we're exploring, is not static. It's

not cemented. It's, you know, and both of you do that really beautifully. Of, oh, this is, this is coming in pieces, or it's not fully formed. Or just, hang on, I don't really have the words yet. Or wait, let me breathe into that, you know, just taking that time to find our way in with things and not

having the pressure to have this fully presented, finished, fabulous,

glossy thing, right? And also, each of us are able to sit back and watch the other two, which I think is really beautiful. I have a lot of memories of like you and Bo are both much more forceful personalities than I am, and you too can you know, and you share voiceover

experience and other experiences that I don't. And there's a beauty to just watching the two of you go, and I am so happy to just sit back and go, Wow, there's the Boeing test show, and I don't feel any need to insert myself, which I think is also a little unusual. I don't feel left out by any means. And

I don't feel any need to insert myself. I just take great joy in watching the two of you interact the way that you interact. And I believe Beau can, can, can say his piece on this, but my sense is that he loves watching you. And I

Oh, he loves it because you. You guys just go in here and here and here and here and here and here, and off it goes. You know, I mean, sometimes when you guys run into I want to make popcorn,

and sometimes you have Elizabeth, and you just slowly walk into the kitchen, you make some food, and we've been and you come back with this platter of food?

Well, there's, there's something about the three of us that I'm seeing as as kind of a commonality. And you know, here we are spending all this time talking about our odd little friendship. But what I'm what I'm thinking about is, you know, when you started blender girl, as I recall, you

had some serious health challenges that you had to find a way to solve for yourself and and blender girl didn't just mean you're making a bunch of smoothies. It meant you had to pull from a lot of different sources to find the aspects that would work for you to create health and wellness for

yourself. And it was not a linear, you know, do this one thing, you know, or I'm a this, you know, with a bumper sticker on it, like an identity or a label. It was a blend. It was a it was a mixture that is appropriate, just for you, you know, is does, is that correct? Am I getting that blender girl

means that as well as, you know, Vitamix and then later, Kitchenaid, yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, I had Epstein Barr Virus as a teenager, and I was just, I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't function in life. I mean, I was just so it was debilitating, and I have a lot of energy naturally, so it was just really heartbreaking. And I just thank my mom for being so

progressive and so forward thinking and researching and recognizing that it wasn't just, well, just sleep, just sleep, and you'll just have to wait. You're like, no, no, we're going to do some things with food and lifestyle and be more proactive. So she took me to a naturopath, and it really changed my life. I

mean, that was the beginning of a revolution in the way that I approached food and my relationship with food. But then I went to an extreme, you know, because I was going to perfect, you know, that the perfect, the being tests if it killed me, basically. And, you know, I then went, you know, I really fell

into dogma and this approach and that approach and perfecting this and perfecting that. And was on my 18th birthday that we're in a restaurant, and my dad just went, the waiter came over and, you know, would you want to hear the specials? And I went, No, no, sorry. Let me just tell you I can't eat this, and I

can't eat this, and did it, and can you do this? And my just, my dad said, can you just give us a minute? And he literally just said, You know what? You're 18. Now I think you can handle this. So I'm just going to tell you what we've been dying, to tell you for years, that we are exhausted, watching you eat,

watching you starve yourself, watching you tell everybody what you can't do. And food should be fun, right? Eat a frickin cheeseburger. Thank you. Know, thank you. And, and, oh, it was, you know, you know, my daddy just loves me more than anyone on planet Earth, you know. And I really listened to that, and it

was a wake up call for me. And then I really realized that flexibility, rather than rigidity, were the keys to health and happiness and flexibility. So many years later, when I came to, you know, decide I was going to start a food website, I looked over at my blender and thought about all

the different things I used a blender for, beyond smoothies, you know, an element of a dish, like a sauce or a burger, or making compost or cleaning products, or, you know, all kinds of things that I was using it for. I really thought, yeah, it is a metaphor for how I live my life. Now. I blend different

notes and flavors and philosophies and cultures and approaches to find my perfect blend at any given time. And that isn't static, it's fluid. And that idea of not chasing perfection, that everything is in process, to your point before, about finding ourselves in the middle of the story all

the time, and also you can't mess it up, because we're going to blend it anyway. So that was a message, you know, that resonated with a lot of other people, and it really has formed the foundation for everything that I've done in the food and wellness space since.

Well, what's amazing to me is, is, once you you built the the blender girl persona and and the website, and then, you know, major publisher books, you know, a. How deeply you dove into that world and and into the publishing world. You know you're, I don't know if you're a poly math, but you're

damn close. But because, because you became such an expert in in marketing and and, and then later as as the spokesman for KitchenAid, first for Vitamix. You know, I heard you on the phone talking to these marketing executives, sounding like you were a world class marketing teacher or expert. It's just

amazing to me how deeply you were able to immerse into those worlds and talk to those guys like you were, you know, a C suite, C suite negotiator, you know, forces deal,

man, like when I think about that, where did that come from? If you had said to me, you're gonna turn out to be one of the top blender experts in the world, I would have just laughed at you when I was 15 years old. You know, that was not on my bingo card. It just wasn't like I loved my blender.

I thought it was amazing, but I think it is a drive that I have from my parents that if you're going to do anything, you do it to the best of your ability. So whether you are volunteering, whether you are at university, whether you are sitting with someone and just having a conversation, you are going to

be present and show up with the full you. And so that was really ingrained in me, that integrity, piece of it, and striving for excellence, and all of that from my parents, no doubt. And then I do have a real drive that if I am going to put myself out there, I want to get to the most elite level, or I feel like I

failed. I mean, that's definitely something that drives me. So you know, when I when I started developing recipes and the website started to get bigger, and I started to get all these offers from different companies and things. It was really important to me that I tested all my recipes on every

blender. So I started buying all these different blenders, and before I knew it, I had an entire room of hundreds of blenders. At one point, I owned almost every blender on the market. And so I really started to look at how blenders worked and what made a good blender, and what didn't. And my opinion

of that, I mean, I was very much self taught, and it wasn't until some companies started recognizing, you know, I would just make a little comment, and then I would get an email saying, Do you know what? We mentioned this to our engineers, and they went, do you would you mind if we spoke to her? Do you

think we would she would be open to us speaking to her and then, and there

you were tutoring the engineers,

just Balls of Steel again. I mean, maybe it's

arrogance, I don't know, but, you know, I just said, Look, I'm not an expert. I'm just going to share with you what I see when I'm using all these different machines, and the blade construction and the power of the motor and how it works with the vortex, for even blending, and for this, and for

this, and whatever. And then it just developed from there, you know. Because the thing about, about the appliance world is, when you know, when you enter a hemisphere, it's actually very small, and everybody knows each other, you know. So people move around to different companies. And then I would make a little

comment here and there on one call about this, about how to talk about this or this or this, and then the marketing piece of it developed from there. I am certainly not a marketing expert or, you know, don't have a lot of skill in that area.

Well, you play one on TV pretty effectively,

and that's a perfect segue into a question that I would like to pose to you, Tess, because prior to all this, you actually, if I remember correctly, you moved to the United States to go to school because you wanted to major in theater at one of the big universities here, and you

were an actress and then a voiceover talent for a long time. And so I wonder, because this is something you and I share, is that we went to school, studied theater, and we're actresses, you know, for quite a long time. And there's something about an actor is you can, you can put on the persona

of the marketing genius or or the you know, or the the the engineer, even if you don't know all the details and and I say that because, after I was an actress, I went back to school and got a business degree, and I got this really pretty high powered corporate job. And I remember the man who hired me,

who became. My boss, he said, I can teach you the details of the spreadsheet or the product that we're selling or whatever. What I can't teach is the ability to get up in front of a client and make a presentation and be super comfortable and confident doing that. And I'm wondering, do you kind of feel that maybe that

acting background plays a part in that balls of steel you can just comfortably inhabit.

Definitely, definitely, I employ the yes and golden rule of improvisation in everything that I do and that, that sense of play and possibility that exists nowhere else but the rehearsal room. Yes, you know where you can do and say anything, and there are no real consequences in real

life, because you're not going to hurt anybody, because everybody accepts the convention that it's play and make believe,

right, right? And it gives you an intuitive ability to receive what the other person is is giving you. And then, know, oh, okay, I can take it this direction. I can take it this direction, but it's based on what they're giving you, not your own agenda. And yes, so

that, yes, you have that, what you call balls of steel, a confidence. But the way you can go in and talk to these engineers very comfortably, I tend to think, is based on your comfort in inhabiting a character in a way. You know, this is the character of Tess being the engineer person,

nothing, not to take anything away from those brilliant, brilliant engineers that know more than I will ever know. But really I was, I was giving offers. To your point, you know, with acting, with play, you give offers, and really, that's what we're doing in life. It is a microcosm for

the dynamic that happens in relationships in life, because we are putting a mirror up to life with storytelling. And so I just decided, you know, because, because it kept evolving, and more and more people kept reaching out, going, I heard that you helped so and so, or you suggested this for so and

so, and then that's how the concerns how the consultancy part of my company really, really grew, because people just kept telling people and the things that I suggested ended up working. You know what I mean? It is wonderful, the KitchenAid trademark, some of the things that I suggested, which is

wonderful, but but, you know, not to take anything away from the rest of the team. I just threw my offers into the mix, and I did it boldly. And I gave myself permission to do that, because if you are not bold in the rehearsal room, you are dead

Exactly, exactly. You have to be willing to take those risks. Of, I'm going to try this, or they're giving me this. Ooh, wow. That kind of brings up this. So I'm going to, let's go. Let's follow that thread. And yes, there is something about the acting training and the improv

improvisation team training, and also the character studies that we do like being able to read people or kind of tease out kind of what's going on with them, or what do they need, or because that's what you need to know in order to inhabit a character. So I just wanted to throw that out there. And no, it's, it's very

true.

I'll tell you the flip side of it too. I remember, right before I sold my book and books, it turned out to be, turned out to be one, two, not one, and then three, not two, you know. And it grew and grew and grew into an app and all the other things, but, but I remember right about six months

before I sold those books, I was getting up to my 40th birthday, and I felt like a failure, and, you know, I hadn't made it as an actor the way that I wanted to, even though I was working a lot as a voice actor and all these other things. And I, you know, and I got this really, really, really big video game, and I did

all these sessions on it, and then they recast a whole bunch, you know, things. And I was devastated. It happens all the time, not happened, yeah, happens all the time, but it not happened to me. I was stated. I mean, I was so humiliated. It was he this, this game ended up being so huge. Anyway, I was

like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. But they, you know, changed developers and all this other stuff happened that probably had not as much to do with me as I was, you know, thinking it had, you know, but I was really devastated. And I remember once I sold my book and it came out, and all the things

there were all these people sitting in the lobby of the voiceover agency talking about, oh, did you see that Tess's book is huge on Amazon today and did it. Oh, my God, she's so lucky. And our friend Stacy just sat there and went, Luck has nothing to do with it. She worked really hard on that blah, blah, blah.

And she called me and was telling me the story, and she said, there's no recasting on this one, baby, yeah. And I remember, I remember that moment so vividly with her, because I was driving over cold water Canyon in LA and I just went, Yeah, this persona is mine. It's me. It's not make believe. I own

this. It is a culmination of my whole life's work, all of my life experience. Experiences, and I'm bringing it to this part of me, and I think that's what allowed me to be even bolder and even stronger and think bigger and continue to grow it grow and grow, which then fed into skinny 60 and, you know, the decadent

detox and all the health programs and giving myself permission that I could do that and create this thing that came from me, that was owned by me. And of course, you know, I had imposter syndrome every day of every month, the whole journey, and continue to do so. But I think to your point, it is that,

that boldness and dwelling in possibility that comes from being a theater animal that continues to feed everything that I do, you know? I mean, gosh, when I started public speaking, you know, I was getting in front of 1000s and 1000s of people, and I just felt completely at home, like this is

where I was always meant to be. I feel more comfortable in many ways, doing that than I do speaking to a room of 10 people.

Yeah, well, trusting what is coming through you, you know, I think is, is, is something that we're all working with, and the three of us have in common some big pivots in our life, projection, you know, yeah, and it's not a, it's not a straight line, but, but when you know you, every one

of the pivot, excuse me, one of the pivots that you've made makes perfect sense, you know well.

And that kind of brings me to another question for you, Tess, because you like just on paper, looking at you on paper. It's like, oh, she was an actress, and then she segued into voiceover, and then she said, when segwayed into the wellness space and became a spokesperson for kitchen

appliances and wrote books, and now she has this business, it can look disjointed, you know, like, how do they all how do they all relate? What do you think of as kind of the the through the through line, like you and I have talked about, in my case, when I went back to school for an advanced degree, I

was kind of like, but what am I doing this for? And I sort of did a little life review, and I tried to look for not the act, not necessarily the activity, but what was the value that seemed to shine through all the multiple careers and pivots that I had made? What value was I pursuing? And I did find one. I

found one like in every instance, even though the career itself didn't seem to relate to the prior one, the value that I was expressing was the same. I wonder, have you been able to tease that out for yourself? Like, what is the the the Keystone that gets expressed about you? Like, for me, it was

being a teacher, like even when I was an actress, I loved directing, and I also loved doing workshops for young people and teaching them acting techniques and helping them get comfortable in front of people. And that contribute that continued through my corporate career, definitely when I had my

own business as a coach, as a fitness coach, and then, of course, I became an actual academic teacher, you know, on a con. So I'm wondering, what would you think is sort of a through line for you? Well, I

was gonna ask you what yours was, and then you offered it. So thank you, because I was gonna go Wait, we have to hear about yours first. I would say it's dwelling in possibility. Dwelling in possibility is the through line, and that is why the podcast is it has to be me, that moment

where you go, I am going after that no matter what, that's mine. I have to do it. I want to be doing it. I can do it. And there's, there's no turning back. Then you own it, you claim it, you own it, you run with it. And whether it's, you know, and obviously now I'm finding my way back to acting in this really

beautiful, amazing way. And all they're all parts of me. So it's all love of storytelling is a through line, self care and self love and self exploration, whether it's through food, whether it's through art, whether it's through story, whether it's through relationships. You know, in

skinny 60 as a coach, now, I use the relationship with food as the portal of discoverability to understand what drives our choices and how there is synergy there, our relationship with food is a mirror to the way that we relate to everything else in our life, and the level of self care and trust that we have in

ourselves, and our ability to be the best version of ourselves, to put ourselves out there, that that offer has value. To your point is, how do we value. You ourselves and make offers. And so that's something that's the through line in every single thing that I do is, where's the truth of the story? Where do I

want to be in it, and what's my contribution? I'm a very impact driven person. So that's a that's another piece of it for me, that that drives me is, is, how is that going to help me understand myself, and, by extension, help others to do the same? Yeah, so that's very much definitely in, you know, in

skinny 60, in our health program, that's something that comes up every minute of every day with every interaction I have with with our participants. But you know, through through my cookbooks, through working with companies, through consulting, through being a partner in the restaurants, all the things that

I all the different things that I do, it's just, oh, I want to meet people, and I want to be clear about who I am, and I want to meet them with where they're at, and if it's in a work capacity, I want to help them show up in a way that makes them feel really great.

Yeah, you want to help them dwell in their possibilities.

Yeah, that really gives me a lot of pleasure and joy. Is to help people expand their potential and live in it and trust it and value it. You know that people want to hear what you have to say. And you know, I've quoted you many times on this podcast. You know, the Don gave to you, which is

sometimes the best teacher for a third grader, is a fourth grader. You know, it's one of it just clicked when you shared that with me all those years ago, many, many years ago, it just went click. It was like a lightning bolt for me, because I, you know, along the way, even though I still did it boldly. I

mean, listen, when you put yourself out there and someone takes up your offer and then pays you a shit ton of money and makes you sign your name to it, and you're working at the highest level, with the biggest publishing house in the world, and, you know, huge international brands, and, you

know, working with Four Seasons and Western all these things, you know, there's, there's no half assing it at that point, right? They've taken up your offer. You've signed on the dotted line. Serious cash has exchanged hands, and you are, I mean, you're committed, and you better show up, you know. So

that was training for me as well. Oh, actually, this is play, but this is also real life at the same time. And and, you know, you better do the work to be able to show up test now, because you've made a promise and you have to deliver now.

So when other people are on stage, you had to do all the work in rehearsal, yeah, and then have the guts to step out on the stage in front of a live audience and deliver a performance that would give them an emotional experience.

And what I see is, whether it's in your stage work or in in the work you're doing, you know in in the nutrition programs, you can trust what has come through you because you have done the work. You can trust it's there, it's there, and all you have to do is allow, is allow it to flow through you.

Now, it's, it's almost like there's, there's no need for trying anymore. I think I've probably shared with you that, that that great story that I share with voice actors about Marlon Brando in in his first film. Do you remember this story? Tell it, yeah. Well, it's a story about, you know,

trusting that, that you're enough, you know. And the story was, it was his, his first film, and the director was very technical. And with film there are a lot of technical things. You have to know. The camera has to be in focus. So you have, there's a mark on the floor and and when you come over to do

this little speech, you have to hit that mark, and you've got to be in a particular light, in a particular way, where the key light hits your eyes. So there's a lot of things you got to be remembering on the technical level. And you know, Brando did his, this is his first film, and they did the first take, and he

had a little monolog, and the director said, Cut, okay, Marlon, okay, great. That was really great. Except we need you to to stay still, because you're moving in and out of focus. And we also, we're, you're, you're kind of mumbling, you know, we need you to project a little bit, you know, because we're not

picking you up a little bit. And Brando kind of sat there real quietly for a second, just kind of nodded. He said, Let me ask you a question. Don't you have a guy whose job it is to. Move the camera? Well, yeah, Marlon, the DP, the director of photography, does that. And isn't there a guy whose job it is to move the

microphone on a boom? Well, yeah, this, yeah, the sound grip is, is doing that? Okay, why don't you go tell those guys to do their job, and I'm just gonna be the guy. I'm just gonna be the guy you know and and not try to be the guy. Just you know, you guys picked me to be the guy. So I'm just going to be the

guy, you know. And if the guy feels like talking softly in this part of the speeches, that's what he's going to do, you know. So just, you know, be the guy and trust what's coming through you. And at this point you can, yeah, yeah, oh,

gosh, but to your point, before we need help to do that, and the relationships, intimate relationships, friendships like this, and allowing yourself to be seen at your messiest when you don't have it fully formed, and you're figuring it out and you're doubting yourself. I mean that

healthy balance between self trust and self doubt is necessary, and we're always teetering, you know, and finding that balance, and I I can't do it on my own, and I recognize that. So both of you play a huge role in me being able to show up the way that I do, and you know my therapists and my family, and

you know anyone else that I allow in my sacred circle, and even the random person I touch at the grocery store today who might just smile at me in a way that you know helps me feel, yeah, okay, you know, I mean, it's we're all helping and holding, Yeah. And you know that that co creation aspect of

identity that we don't do it in a vacuum. And do we have to be really discerning about the mirrors that we look into and trust about who we are absolutely? Yeah, oh my god, though the mirrors that you hold up to me about who I am and what I'm capable of, my God, I look into those mirrors on a daily

basis, even though we are not physically in relationship with each other, and we're doing it on FaceTime and zoom at the moment, you know, and we will see each other again. And I can't wait till you come down when you call me to say you were coming to Australia for a couple of months. It was like,

seriously,

like, really happening. It must truly be happening because it's on the internet. Now. Are you

gonna hold you to that, because I want to be in my physical love sandwich.

I was crying. I'll share with with you, dear listener, I was really processing my husband's my divorce and my breakup and his death and all these things. And I was just in a fetal position in the guest house at Beau and Elizabeth's house, and I was just crying and crying, and Bo

came behind me and kind of spooned me. And then Elizabeth walked in with a cup of tea and said, Can I join the love sandwich? And then she came in front of me, and it was like they sandwiched me with physical and emotional and spiritual and Soul love. And I I think about that, I can still feel it, what

it felt like in my body to feel that held and that loved in my darkest hour. I mean, that chapter really was my darkest hour. So thank you, thank you for the way that you love me. It makes me stronger, makes me better,

and thank you for receiving it. Because I often think of that moment too. We had made a little kind of nest on the floor of blankets and a little like a futon, so that you can stretch out and be comfortable and and I remember that, and I remember how good it felt for you to receive that

from both of us, because there was like an energy flowing through. You to Bo and back to me, and it was just kind of this circle that we had through you as well as around you, and it was soup, and that was actually where Beau and I began to get a glimpse of how just our relationship and our opening our

relationship to other people. Could be so supportive and healing for them that we didn't even have to put on a performance of we're great, we're a couple, but everything's great, everything's fine. We could share together, folding someone into our into all four of our arms. And that was so

beautiful to experience that with my partner. Because prior to that, like if I had been giving and comforting to someone, it was just me, but to do that with my partner, and that's one of the beautiful dynamics, I think, of our relationship, is that you receive love from both of us

together, as well as the individual love that we give you. And again, it's, it sounds weird.

Well, this is the part where a whole lot of the listeners are going, Okay, this is where they had sex, the love sandwich on the floor with the pillows and the blankets. What?

Okay. It's so, not that it's

so, but it's, it's more intimate than that, yeah,

yeah, it's, there's a, there is a vulnerability in allowing you to see us in all aspects, not only is, is who we are as individual people, but to see all the aspects of our relationship, and there's a vulnerability in you allowing us. You know, despite all of your accomplishments, and

like you say, your balls of steel, you bring us your fear and your vulnerability, and you're feeling like a failure, and let us hold you.

And not only that, but you let us hold you in your vulnerability, knowing all of the difficulties that we have had to work through together. I mean, you've seen us at our absolute worst, you know, and and and, and seen us work it through to getting to a beautiful place, but, but you

know, your trust, you know, means everything to us.

Yeah, thank you. That trust is the thing, isn't it, that we're, we're really constellating around, is, is the trust, trust in yourself and trust in others and trust in the intangible things you can't even describe or explain or even fully hold, that there is something magical about the

things that we can't control and we're afraid of the Things that we can't control,

and that's definitely something you bring to our our little family, like you were saying, your value is dwell in possibility, and you bring that to us as a couple. Through your eyes, you see not just the difficulty, but we might be having but you see the beauty and the love and the

power that we bring to the world as a couple, so you show us our own possibilities,

which is pull us forward into the vision.

Thing for me, you did the same thing for me. I mean, you know, it is that thing of you can't read, you know, the outside label from the inside. That's right, no. And we need that. We need that, that third eye, that perspective. And you certainly do that for me all the time, all the time. I was

thinking about something you said before, about just needing someone to listen, just knowing that someone's presence is there. I remember when Rob died, and I was so devastated, and I hadn't given myself permission to really fully grieve, because I hadn't seen him in many, many years. We had been divorced for

many years, and I come down to see you, and I had this real opening about it. And anyway, I left, and I remember I was with Hannah, and I was in air one, and I just hadn't. I had a breakdown. I had a breakdown at the grocery store and and I couldn't. I just slumped down, and I was in the bathroom, and I

literally couldn't breathe. I think I had what I imagined to be a panic attack. I've never had one, well, maybe I have one, and I don't know what it is, but I literally couldn't form words. It was really difficult. And I was having just it was all coming into me, and I couldn't I felt like I couldn't hold it in

my body, and because Hannah. Me so well, and knows you that how much I love you guys and how close you are to me and how I just been with you. She because she was my assistant for five years, she knew the code to my phone. She knew all my past, everything, right? So she just opened my phone, called Bo. Just

knew to call Bo, and literally asked Bo, this is what's going on. And both said, just put the phone up to her ear. Just hand her the phone. And you just said, Hey, Tessie. And that was it. That was it. I just came back into my body. He goes, Just breathe, what's going on, kiddo. And just you talked me through

it, and I I just remember, I'm, like, recording, I said, Rob died, like it was, like it was sort of like, after six months, it just sort of this other way of grief just kind of came over me, and it just found its way into another cavern of me. And it was really unexpected. I couldn't breathe it, and he just

kept going, Yes, and it's tragic and it's awful, and you get to have feelings about it. I remember, that's exactly what you said to me. And it was I just started wailing. I mean, I I don't know if I've ever wailed like that in my life, like I was wailing into cavities and parts of my body that I didn't have

never experienced or felt or accessed before ever. I mean, it was, I can't even imagine what it was like for Hannah and the people in that. I mean, it was just like she said, it was like it was an alien or something. It was just crazy. And I needed, I needed to do that and and you helped open that for me, Bo and

because I felt so safe with you, and I I wouldn't have got there, I wouldn't have got there on my own. And so, you know. And then you talked Hannah through what to do, take her home, now, get into the bed with her, make some food, you know, all the things, right? And it was really, a really huge part of my grief

journey with that and being able to hold that grief in my body to this day and find balance and equilibrium and give myself permission to continue to feel it however it shows up for me many years later now, and grief is meticulous in its work, and it's a labyrinth the human experience. And we don't ever

know in which part we're going to find ourselves exploring in any given moment because of the unexpected nature of stimuli. But both of you continue to do to be my navigators in a way like, help me explore the sharp edges of myself and the bits that are hard to look at, which is, you know what, what you're

saying to me as well. You know, we help each other do hard things.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and we're willing to, you know, I often, I so often, think about you and and little fragments of conversations we've had will float through my mind and I'll go, oh, we need to go back to that. We didn't really finish that thread, and I love that about the way we can talk

like, not like what you said earlier, we will often just pause and just sit with it for a minute and then say, well, this is what's coming up, or this is kind of where I'm going, but it's not fully formed, and we're willing to let It sort of hang there and trust that will come back to it another time, and it

will have another nuance and another facet, like grief. It is a journey, and it has many levels and nuances and paths that it has to follow. And we give each other that in this friendship, whatever we bring that we might be struggling with, or an idea that we had, we're a lot we're willing to

just sort of let unfinished business hang there until the next time. Yes, which I think is really beautiful, and that's part of the trust and

the the thing that is really present for me right now, because we just got back from being in a Hawaii and getting into relationship with the ocean, a woman, the feminine, also the feminine in a male body. It is, it is an ocean. You know, sometimes the waves are really big. And why

are the waves really big? Right now? Well, I don't know it doesn't matter. You know gravity, the moon, you know weather. I you know it doesn't hold all you know. And what I'm trying to learn to do with you is just be there for the rocks, be the rocks for that wave to crash on. And that's what I'm

learning to do with with my dear wife. Life, you know, and, and, and she's learning to trust that she can crash on my on my rocks, and it and, and it may or may not mean anything. It's just the waves were big, yes. And to let that flow through you, whether it's in in an acting performance you know, or you know in in your

skinny 60 programming, needing to say to someone in a one on one interaction, honey, you're hiding. You're you're lying to yourself, telling a truth with with loving intent, you know, but allowing it, believing that it's the truth, is coming through you and allowing it, you know, that's, that's what we're

trying to teach each other to

do, yeah, and that's, that's exactly what I'm getting at when I say we're willing to dive deep in a conversation, but not really come up with an answer or a conclusion, we're willing to just let it kind of hang there, like let the waves just continue to go back and forth for a

while, and trust that when it needs to be brought up again, when, when there's another spark around this particular subject. You know, I remember times you've called me and said, Yeah, this is where I'm at, and this is what's going on and blah, blah, blah, blah, but I don't know what it all means. And then

we don't talk for a while, and then you're like, Oh, this is what's going on now. And now, it makes sense, you know? But we didn't try to fix it in the moment. We didn't try to figure it out. There's a presence we're able to give each other of just letting it be whatever it is for this particular moment, and

that's a real gift, because most people want to, like, finish the conversation done.

That's an aspect of the Alpha or masculine energy. Wants to check the box, get it finished and make the problem go away, you know,

and, and, or finish the thought or come to the conclusion, and sometimes that's useful

in in getting shit done, but, but our interpersonal growth doesn't work that way, you

know, and that's what I love about so much, about watching you and Bo, when the two of you get going on talking about something, it just, it's like, it goes, you know, small and then big and bigger and bigger and bigger, and then you guys are, like, out in the stratosphere. And I'm

like, Wow, this encompasses so many things that you guys are just sort of weaving in and out of. But I have complete trust that it doesn't really have to resolve in any way.

We're just in a process, a conversation, and, and it's like the ocean. It's like the, you know, the ocean and, and, you know, the thing about the ocean is it doesn't end and, and, and that's but that's also true about desire. You know, the desire, whether it's to you know in

interpersonal whether it's sexual desire or desire to create something you know, in business, in the world, that desire is endless, and when you when you get the thing, you're not satisfied. I got the thing, you know, because it's, it's never ending, and it's, you know, as our friend Justin,

Justin in London, you Yeah, who I've had on the podcast, who just says, It's hilarious, right?

It just, it's never set it's never gonna never be satisfied, and it's always going to be an irritant. It's always going to feel like an irritant in your psyche, in your body, and so then,

unless you can learn to just be in the flow and enjoy the right

and that's partly why I remember that time we were all dancing together as monsters. We do. We love what you call your monster, because it's that endless flow, that endless desire, that it's never going to be resolved, you know, we're never going to have a conversation that's going to put

it to bed, that Tess is now figured out. She's done, done, adjusted, right and finished. Tess is done. Yeah, right. Tess's monster is now healed. Elizabeth's, whatever her monster is, is now healed. You know, it's never going to happen. And so to have relationships where we can just

continue that exploration of the

words out of my mouth, I was going to use the word exploration as well. Like, I think that one of the, you know, one of the many things we have in common is the the love and the interest and the fascination and the desire to be in the exploration, yeah, and to just continue. To have a look

and to not necessarily be focused on what is this for? You know, what can I do with this? You know? Again, that's that internalized capitalism thing. Where can I use this productively? Well, no, no. It's just, this is the way the ocean is flowing. And, yeah, you know, yeah, I always want to

know the the meta picture of the moral of the story is, you know, what those experiences trying to teach him, you know? And it's, it's, it's just so much nicer to just allow the flow of life to go on. There was, there's a little song they sing in kind of the woo, woo world and and, you know, you can kind of make fun

of it if you're feeling cynical, but it just the chorus of it says, You don't have to know the way, the way knows, the way you know, and to just be in that and say, Isn't this extraordinary that we get to be on this journey With our friend who has now done 100 podcasts.

Well, thank you for doing this. I I really love this podcast. It's actually the most joyful thing that I do, besides being with the people that I love i i love talking to people. Just love talking about shit with people. I mean, it's just so much fun and getting to immerse yourself in a life

that's not yours, and the extraordinary things that humans can do when they just go, Yeah, I can do that. When you give yourself permission to do it and explore it, it's just unbelievable what we're capable of. And, you know, I, you know, Elizabeth, we've, we've spoken on the podcast a couple of times

now, and we will speak again, and Bo, you and I will speak as well again, but I'm, I'm really interested in what's going to happen in this next chapter for you guys, now that you've just retired, Bo and you've got a little taste of what it's like to be in Kauai, which is where I got married. Incidentally, it's

very special place for me as well, so I'm so happy that it's now in your heart, particularly Hanalei Bay, which is a magical place in the

world. We know we're still, I'm still hearing the ocean

Oh gosh, and let it be there forever, because there's something about the way that the waves come in and out, that it's always going to come in and it's always going to come out, like tapping into that rhythm really allows you to hold the allowing you know, doesn't it? Because you know that it's

not permanent, that it's ever changing, and that it's going to come in and it's going to go out and it's going to come back in again, you know, that it's not going to come out and the water is going to disappear, that you are the water if you allow yourself to be in that flow. So I love that you're still hearing

that, and you can still feel it, you know. But I'm really excited about the exploration of this, the possibilities of this new place that you're both in together.

Well, it is. It is a place of discovery for both of us and and I don't have the answer to the question that everybody asks. So you're retired now. So what's next? So what's next? What are you going to what are you going to do? Well, right now, I'm not going to do anything. The Buddhists

have a term. I'm not familiar enough with that tradition to speak authoritatively, but they call it a Bardo, a period of of waiting, a liminal space before after a stage and before the next thing. And so I'm just allowing the wrinkles to hang out. And I know that there are things that are arising and

changing form, and I trust them, you know? So, so, you know, we'll, we'll talk as that vision emerges and and it's, we're in a different phase of of our relationship where it's really clear, oh, it's not just both. That's retiring. It is a shift in our way of being as a couple, you know, and so, so we can talk

about that sometime. That might be a podcast, yeah, it might be, yeah. And I know that. I know, you know, like, like it always is, with with us. We could go on for another two hours, easy but, but the old radio guy in me, with the eye on the clock, says we probably should wrap this up. And if you don't mind, I'd like

to read something that meant a lot to me. Do you know who Maria Popova is? You know she she writes this incredible weekly newsletter. It's called the marginalian. And she weaves together literature, poetry, art, philosophy, spirituality, all together,

and even some academia,

yeah, and sometimes astrophysics. And in this beautiful newsletter, and she has written a thing. It's called an almanac of birds, and it's it's like divination cards, each of which has a photograph or a drawing which she has done of a beautiful bird, and one of her poems. And I pull one every day,

you know. And this actually came from yesterday, but it's just thinking about our time together, you know. So I can I read that too. Please to this is from yesterday's card. It says, Give up the terror of being left or wounded, for it is a species of selfishness that plunders attachment of sweetness and

feeds on the carry on of the possible. Give yourself abundantly with an open heart and believe in the part of you that cannot be destroyed by the agonies of hope, the part courageous enough to carry the weight of the most beautiful feelings and humble enough to be surprised.

That's kind of the I feel like the journey that we're on together, all three of

us, and as I I think about you, Tess and our relationship, both you and I are our relationship together, our relationship the three of us, we believe in the part of you that cannot be destroyed by the agonies of hope, yes, and we know that you believe in that for us as well. Yeah, yeah. But

I think, I think at its core, maybe that's what we all recognize in each other, is we believe in each other. We see the core of each other, and we believe in it and we trust it, and that gives us this beautiful ability to have these never ending conversations and to support each other through

really vulnerable, difficult things that other people would turn away from and also to support and celebrate each other, you know, in such beautiful Ways, because we believe in that part of ourselves.

Yes, thank you for how you show up in the world and how you show up for me, I'm so grateful, and I couldn't be me without you. So thank you for making me better, seeing me yes

and the same for us. The same for us too. We love you so much. And I just hope that people watching or listening get just a glimpse, you know, of how we how we see you. Thank you. I love you. Love you. Love.