In this episode, meet podcast creator, producer, and consultant Lisa Orkin.

She is a great storyteller that uses audio and sound to paint a picture for her audience.

Lisa started her own podcast, then working with indie podcasts, and now bigger businesses are into it and advertising has also come into it.

Her secret for storytelling

Lisa says that her secret to better storytelling is to paint pictures instead of words. Rather than narrating how something feels or seems, she describes how it looks -- and that’s how to successfully paint a picture in listeners’ minds. Lisa also loves to expand people’s limits by giving her audiences a nice push out of their comfort zones. 

Her projects

She is currently working on Michael Cohen’s podcast for Audio Up. She also has Project Woowoo, which is her own fun podcast. Lisa likes helping people with the creative aspects of their podcasts, especially intros and outros. Since she works with people who have been in that industry, she finds that it is super important to help them decipher what they want to say and find a way to say it in a way that is going to be attention-grabbing.

Authenticity

Lisa believes that it is important to have authenticity in media; people want to see who you are in all ways and that will keep people interested in you and what you have to say. People want real. And even for hosts who prefer to keep to themselves and just present information, they can still present information in a way that represents them. Find the line where comfortable, authentic, and private lay side to side -- it does take practice but you just got to do it and get out there. 

Audio vs. Writing 

For Lisa, the difference when writing for listening is that everything has to be shorter and more precise. Use the dialog to paint a picture but in a way that also is engaging. One of the mistakes people make when they’re writing for audio is that they write something that is meant to be read. Audio sentences must be short, but also be filled with information and move the story enough without much narration or feeling tedious. 

Her creative journey

Lisa had all kinds of jobs before choosing the artistic path of writing. She started writing with her dad, Dick Orkin. She felt like the Radio Ranch was a family business that allowed her to grow, While she wanted to be an actor, she found that her true passion was in writing.

What’s Ahead

Lisa hopes to soon make more shows and use the medium to its fullest to tell as many stories as possible. She is ready to set off on her ideas with many great collaborators. 

Connect

website: www.lisaorkincreative.com

Instagram @lisaorkingram

I welcome back everyone. This is Mark Stenson, and you've come to our podcast, unlocking your world of creativity. And this is the podcast where we go around the world talking to creative talent and creative experts about how they get inspired about their work, how they keep their ideas organized, and most of all, how they gain the confidence and the connections to get their work up and out into the world. And today I'm just so glad to have as our guest, Lisa Orkin, Lisa, welcome to the program.

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

Well, this is what I've been looking forward to for quite some time. Lisa is a podcast creator, producer, editor, and consultant, and that sounds great on a business card or on a LinkedIn profile, but she's so much more than that as I think about, uh, you know, creative, really audio storyteller, uh, Lisa, I've always thought of you as a storyteller that really paints a picture in sound and audio and dialogue. Uh, and now you've been bringing that to podcasting.

Yeah, it's really fun. I like the long form part of podcasting and, and yeah, I can tell bigger, longer stories there there's no, um, FCC, is that who it is, uh, to tell him what I can say and what I can say. So, yeah, I really, I really do.

Yeah. And how have you seen, I guess the format, the medium, the channel, uh, you know, evolve, you know, people started, uh, Hey, I want to turn on the microphone and talk, uh, but it's really become a lot more than that. Hasn't it?

It has. I mean, I started off very much in an Indy podcaster working with indie podcasters, creating my own podcasts, and I think it's gotten very, um, suddenly the big businesses are into it. Now, the interesting thing though, is that now that sort of like the studios are getting into it and podcasts are sort of changing and advertising with it is changing. The quality has gone down a little bit. I think, I think there was more cream at the top before and now it's just that everybody, especially with COVID everybody who's, everybody can have a podcast. And that, that worries me a little bit. So people are doing like videos and ripping the audio off, which makes me nauseous and yeah. So stuff like that.

Yeah. And I guess, do you think it's COVID I mean, or is it, Hey, I want to be out there. I want to tell a message. Uh, because they think, I, I heard that literally, uh, it went from a million podcasts to 2 million, like overnight or something crazy,

But I heard that only 750,000 of those 2 million podcasts are ongoing, so it's a big number, but I think people peed her up. Pretty good.

Yeah. And so thinking about those formats and structures, like I said, a lot of them like mine, uh, in more interview, like, but what are some of the other formats that you've been singing?

Well, I really enjoy fiction podcasting. I like musicals. I've seen some really wonderful musicals. Um, I also love improvise podcasts. There's one called mega mega something mega star. I'm not sure, but they actually it's improvised in every week. They interview some buddy who left a mega church. And I think that's kind of really fun and funny. And it's always some actor with a story who left a megachurch. So I liked when people use, I mean, because audio, you can paint any picture you want. I really love when people do that. So like girl on space where she's out in space and that's a full on indie podcast, she did everything on our own and I just super appreciate that stuff.

And, and that painting the picture. I mean, that's, again, as I've known you and your work, it's really been painting that story. Uh, what, what is the secret, I guess, behind that storytelling?

I think, I think it's to create pictures instead of words, not to think in words, but to think in pictures and visuals. So when I'm writing or creating, I'm seeing the visual and I think that's the secret to me that you want to create relationships. You know, it's such an intimate, like radio was, is it's such an intimate medium, and you can paint such beautiful pictures. And I think people get all caught up in words, on podcasts because it's language, but really the languages, what you, what you paint for the person, how you create a soundscape, how you, even if it's an interview podcast, uh, where's the connection, what are the pictures we're seeing? Do we imagine the people, do we imagine where they're sitting? Um, all of that I think is super important

And you kind of connected it back to radio. And, uh, I think about the old radio dramas and soap operas and things like that that really did have, you know, the full plot, you know, some, some conflict, some drama to it.

They did. And I think that's, you know, there's a really good lesson to be learned with those. They're really, they're really amazing if you go back and listen, like even like war of the worlds, just classic, but they really created, I just really listened to it again. They really created such a amazing story. Here's the guy out in the field, who's all by himself. There's the, the, the landing it's like, it just gives me goosebumps because you could just see it all, you know, they don't say, Oh, there's a man and there's an aircraft, but they describe what they're seeing. And they don't, they don't tell us, they show us.

Yeah. I was listening to one of your podcasts recently thinking about how uncomfortable I was that the, a woman was stalking her ex-husband's apartment. Like in the bushes looking into windows. I'm like, I'm feeling this, my heart is beating. I like the discomfort that I'm getting from listening to that program

Go for it. I, even when I was a comedian on stage, I kind of love to create discomfort. And I don't know what that is because I don't particularly like to be in an uncomfortable situation, but in my work and my art, I like pushing that uncomfortable boundary.

And I guess another program that you said was loosely based on your life. So I was even more uncomfortable with the scene that you were helping your mom try to fit into a bathing suit or something. And I just, again, my, my pulse went up. I'm like, how loosely is this scene based on a real story on target,

Bathing suit, shopping with my mother. That would probably be almost verbatim.

There you go. And how much of this is like, based on true, true life?

I think a lot of it comes from like, uh, some of it's like very true and some of it is a spark of truth, or I thought, Ooh, what if this would have happened? And then I just go in that direction. Totally. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about some of the podcasts and programs that you're working on now. Uh, both for yourself and for others. What are you producing these days?

Uh, I am actually, I'm working on Michael Cohen's podcast for audio up. That seems to be the main thing in my right now because I've been doing it for about two weeks. And I am just inundated trying to figure that out because it's a lot of editing and my sister said, Oh, I guess you have a skill because I've editing it, which is not, I think my best skill in the world. I think I have many more skills that they would like, I would rather be, you know, the commercials. I'd rather I could write the commercials, but it's okay. Um, I'm actually working on Lisa upside down, which is a scripted podcast. I have two more episodes that I've written. Hopefully we're all gonna get back in studio very soon, cause we've all been vaccinated. And um, and then project Google will probably come out back out this summer and project we will is, you know, that's sort of my most fun podcast cause we just get to be silly and, you know, pretend to be whoever I want them to be. And it's just a silly fun podcast. Yeah.

Yes. Well, I think in about audio, up as a set, you were talking about, you know, really corporate, uh, almost media companies now forming around this, this kind of podcasting as a channel, uh, they've got quite a right wide range, all those types that we were talking about, don't they?

Yeah. They have a huge range. And um, that's what I think is so interesting about them is that they have, and they're also, they came from the music business and the jingle business, like some of them and some came from like, you know, Hollywood. So it's such an interesting mix of people. I mean, I'm only, it's only been two weeks, so I don't know a lot yet, but yeah, they have a huge, they're very innovative and they have this thing called the audio chalet, which is out in, on the other side of the Hill, from where I live in Pacific Palisades ish, Mandeville Canyon. And it's a big, giant, beautiful mansion where all the business takes place and the recording takes place. And I mean, I haven't worked there yet cause we're all working from home still, but yeah, it's kind of really cool. It's not in a, it's not, you know, it's not Warner brothers or it's not HBO or Spotify. It's really innovative. So yeah. And they don't actually know really what I do. They really don't. They don't, I don't think they know my history at all. I just came in because they need somebody in a pinch and they remembered, they had talked to me, they knew I had comedy ties and I think that's what interested them in the first place. So yeah.

And maybe that ability to weave a story together, you know, even if you have to do it in the editing, you know, the bits. Yeah. Well, you know, you were talking about, uh, about this company's experience in music and jingles and so forth, but you know what, one of your big, uh, focuses is helping people who are podcasting, you know, get more creative in their intros and outros and ads and so forth. What are some of the insights from your experience that you're bringing these people?

I think what's really interesting is people here like an intro or an outro and they want to copy it. And I think what I've been really trying to show people is that no, you can have your own original, your original intro or outro you don't your own original take on your podcast, that it, that you need to use your life experience and what it is you want to say and make a pot, make, make an intro and outro that other people want to copy. So I think that's super important. Um, and I, I think that's one thing I've been really working with, uh, with people on, uh, for podcasts, um, helping them really, uh, decipher what it is they want to say. And then finding a way, a creative way, a story, a human story that actually grabs people and makes them want to listen because it's, it's a human story that they're, they're about to hear whether it's an intro and outro or a trailer. Um, all of those things I think are really important. Like what is your, what is your podcast really about what are they going to learn and why, why do they need to know that?

And you know, it's so focused on as you say the voice, but I, it, there's all, most of that double meaning of voice, right? You want to find your voice, but you want to find your voice, meaning your human side. Is that, is that right?

Not the sound of your voice, right? Your, your, your authenticity, which is like the most overused word, but yeah. What is it that you want to say? Well, you know, that's the voice I think I'm talking about and what is it about?

And I guess we keep saying authenticity and things like vulnerability, which by the way that Bernay Brown, uh, takeoff on your project is spot on and hilarious. Uh, but uh, in that vulnerability part, I mean, it seems like you, haven't been afraid sometimes to let that side of you show. Um, but what do people have to think about when they say, look, I really need to be real.

No, I think it's really important that if you're going to be in a medium where you're sharing and you're talking and it's, it's not interesting if people can't see who you are, you know? So I think it's really important to let, who you are good or bad in all ways, your humanness show. Um, I think that's like super, super important. I mean, I think a really good example of it is the woman who created the blog S the it's a blog and she's amazing. And not until she got vulnerable and started speaking to who she was, did her blog take off. And I think it's because people want real, you know, we all live in this artifice half the time, I think, because we kind of have to that when we experiencing entertainment or an interview, we want something that's real and human so that we can go, Oh, there I am in it. And I think that's what we, that's ultimately what you want people to do that either go there. I am in it, or thank God I'm not

Yeah. One or the other. I want to be like them. I absolutely do not want to be like that. And I just want to watch them fall apart. Yeah. I love that. And what do you think keeps people from doing that? I mean, is it, is it just, I mean, here we are behind a microphone, so neither one of us may be scared behind it, but are there people who say, I don't want my stuff, you know, out there, I just want to hide behind this podcast thing and be informational exchange.

Yeah. I think just go write that then I think, but even in writing, you have to have something different. It's your own personal take on what ever it is that you are, are discussing or your, I mean, you could be a news journalist, I guess. And a lot of times they don't, they're very careful about vulnerability because they're just presenting the news. But I think in a podcast, you know, 2 million podcasts, but really 750,000 podcasts a be you, cause it's all you, that's all you have. That's the only thing you have. That's different than everyone else is yourself. So you might as well be your quirky, weirdest, most vulnerable self, just go for it. Yeah. And it takes time. I mean, I've been acting since I was a little girl. And so, um, I don't think I know how to do it differently and I'm actually learning more how to sort of know when to check it in as opposed to let it out. Um, but I, I think it takes practice. I think if you're new to podcasting, podcasting, still performing, um, you need practice, you just gotta do it and get out there and you'll get more real as time goes on. It's definitely, you get better as you gather more people listening.

And I did want to add, I'm glad you brought this up, uh, since your childhood, but I was curious as your own creative journey, uh, when, when you sort of decided that I want to do this professionally, you know, there's always this creative fun side, then you say, I'd like to do this for work. Okay.

I don't think I knew how to do anything else. I mean, I definitely worked in restaurants and I delivered food and I, uh, worked in stores and I sold clothes and, uh, all kinds of jobs like that. But I think from the time I was a kid, I was kind of just in training to, to do too. Right. I never really wanted to write. Um, and I think my dad just sorta thought I could write. And so he sort of kept putting the pressure on me to write with him. And I think that's how that came about and I needed to make money. And it seemed like that was a way I could make money as writing. And, um, and I always wanted to be an actor and I wanted to be a classical actor. And then I really quickly realized that I'm not, I'm funny, even when I'm doing classical stuff. So if I'm like lost my child in a scene and I'm crying on the floor, the audience is kind of snickering because I must look sort of silly doing it.

So it's, it's a parody of the classical actor.

No, no. Why are they laughing at me? So, yeah.

I love that. Well, you know, and your dad, uh, Dick Orkin, the partner in the radio ranch, did you ever feel like the radio ranch was that family business? I mean, working together like that?

Yeah, definitely. It was definitely a family business. It's I still have the radio ranch. I can't quite let it go. I could let it go, but I don't let it go. And I think it's just out of nostalgia. I mean, we do a few, you know, uh, you know, maybe eight, eight commercials a year. We have like served maybe four to six clients a year. And I love my team there. I love the people I work with and I like creating in the studio and it's an, and my team I've been working with for 30 years on and off. So like Robbie Rist, who's in most of my stuff. Um, him and I worked together on commercials as teenagers and we have been married. We've been divorced. We've been, we've had kids, we've gotten engaged. We have done everything possible. You could do in a radio commercial. So I like working with my

Yeah. All for banks and, uh, Lord knows what else. Right? Yeah. I

Love it. Lots of cars.

Yeah. Well, and thinking of those stories, especially, yeah. We talked about the sort of roots in radio, but now in podcasting, but, uh, and then fiction writing for listening. Yeah. What, what what's different?

Um, I think, I think everything needs to be shorter. I think you gotta get to the point quicker. I think you have to tell them exactly what's going on without telling them you have to show them. I think, uh, you don't have a picture behind you to rely on, so you have to use your dialogue to paint the picture. And, but, but the dialogue has to have movement to it. So hold on, I'm going to get a drink. I know

It's allergy season here.

Okay. Yeah. The allergies are bad everywhere

They are. So I think it's just really important when you're writing for the ear that you remember, people don't have a picture to rely on and you don't want to just go there. They're in a field. Like you want to use that inside of it. It's like, Oh my gosh, I'm so itchy from sitting in the field there, you got it. Instead of saying, we're sitting in a field. Yeah. We're itchy, you know, Oh, it's so hot and itchy and the corn stocks are hitting me in the back and whatever,

And you can really get all those senses working.

Yeah, I think so. Right. Smell. I love using smell on audio too. So, you know, you can paint a picture with, with smell new car smell, always in radio commercials. What does that smell or food even. So I think it's really important to use, make sure that the listener is using all their senses. Great. Anyways,

And I guess if you think of those mistakes or potholes in people's writing and storytelling, what, what do you see the most in terms of, you know, or hear the most in other people's podcasts? What, what mistakes do you think are frequently being made right now?

I think people write, they, they write like they're writing something to be read or to, to read it as opposed to be said. So I think a lot of times, like, you know, we don't use correct grammar when we speak normally and, and we cut each other off and we don't always answer directly. We answer indirectly. It's more of the feeling behind our words, the actual words most of the time. So I think keeping those things in consideration, I think like thing really for audio that works really well is short sentences. So if you're having a conversation back and forth, short sentences are great. If it's, you know, if it's fictional or you're, you're writing a script, even for an intro and outro, just keep those, keep it all short, keep the sentences short and be really in like, how much can you get out of that short sentence? It's really important to think about too. So like I said, like, Oh, I'm so itchy, sitting on the grass. Well, there you go. That's the whole line. Instead of saying, I'm sitting here on the grass and it's green and it's making my body itch. It's like, no, you just, it's really just Sam. So if she's sitting on the grass

Yeah. Let's just get to the point, paint that picture. I love that. Yeah. Well, before we close Lisa, I just want to be sure that people know how to connect with you and, uh, find out, uh, all your consulting and production work.

Yeah. I think the best way to connect with me would probably be Lisa Orkin, creative.com and, um, am I, and I love to Instagram, I'm a huge Instagrammer. So if you follow me at Lisa Orkin Graham on Instagram, you'll be able to link to everything I do. I'm really not taking on very many clients right now, kind of full, but, um, but I, you know, I'd love to see what other people are doing. So, you know, share your podcasts with me on Instagram, share, share what it is you're doing. Say hi DME. I think that's the best way.

Perfect. Well, and then thinking about what's next, uh, as you think about how the medium and how your own creative process is going forward, what do you see over the horizon for yourself?

You know, I see just making more shows. I have so many ideas for shows. I'm also working on a storytelling show for Jonathan Fields, who does the good life project called the hug. And so that's kind of a really fascinating show. It's all feel good stories that we need in this day and age. And, um, I think it's using the medium to its fullest, you know, just use every part of it. Like, like, you know, tell stories, tell, tell every story. I think that's what I see.

That's great that you got lots of new ideas to percolate on and it sounds like a lot of collaborators.

Yeah. A lot of collaborators. I do amazing collaborators.

Uh, it always helps the process. Well, at least I can't thank you enough for your time. It's been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. And inspiration.

I, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. I love talking about creativity.

Yeah. And listeners definitely go by, uh, Lisa's Instagram account, uh, just as a bright spot in your day. And maybe some of that discomfort that we were talking about earlier, some of that raw personal stuff, Instagram, I've

Been making little videos lately.

Yeah. Right. Very fun. Well, my guest has been Lisa Orkin podcast, creator and producer and editor and all around great audio storyteller. So be sure to follow her work at Lisa Orkin, creative.com and listen, and just come back again. Next time. We'll continue our virtual around the world trip. I mean, geez, just in the last few episodes, we've been from San Francisco to Johannesburg, from uh, Amsterdam to Bangkok. And now in LA the creativity, the pulse is, is around the world and we're, we're glad to be tapping into it on this podcast. So come back for more creative inspiration, learn more tools and methods to organize your creativity and then gain the confidence and the connections to get your work up and out into the world until next time I'm Mark Stinson. We're unlocking your world of creativity. See you next time.