A welcomed, wide open conversation with PRCA Director of Rodeo Administration Steve Knowles. To his credit, no questions were off limits and his answers were candid.

Howdy, everybody.

Bob Tallman for No Spin Rodeo.

No politics, no BS.

Just hard hitting news, and

rodeo commentary from two of the most trusted sources in our sport.

Kendra Santos, Tommy Joe Lucia.

Listen up.

Here we go.

Hello, no spinners.

Welcome to episode 110.

110 of No Span Rodeo.

Thank you all, if you're setting in your car, if you're watching us on YouTube.

However, you're listening to us.

Welcome also, um, I'm

I'm Robin to this Batman.

Um, Batwoman, the 1st lady of pro

rodeo journalism.

Good September morning, Kendra Santos.

How are you today?

Can you believe Labor Day is coming at us this week?

Amazing.

It's a, it's a, it's a, um, It's

a symptom of getting older and that is time goes faster.

And when you get older, that's all you talk about.

As you get older, if you notice, you talk about how much you go to the bathroom,

how fast time is flying and who all has died.

Um, I, that's so funny because I,

I just had this conversation with Od a couple nights ago.

Me?

Most evenings, if I'm around home,

I'm watching the sun go down in my hammock and I set down some

new ground rolls a couple nights ago and I said, here's

what we're not going to do as we get older.

The golden years are not going to amount to us talking about while we

ate today and anything to do with the bathroom.

Did you have your prunes?

Four prunes, Kendra, before noon.

Not having it.

Well, you better keep it in mind because

if you don't go to the bathroom, it's not a good thing.

So that's all I'm saying.

That's important to a man, by the way, in case you didn't know that as a woman.

Like going the restroom is an important

feature of life for the typical male, just so you know.

Here's though, what I've noticed in a lifetime of having, you know.

A dad, grandpa, uncles,

brothers, sons.

Whatever all men.

It's like this big event.

Women are like, I talked to Od about this.

He's like, yes, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm doing laundry today.

I'm going to the post office.

I'm like, that never makes a woman's to do list.

You do these things, you know, like.

The oven getting cleaned is not on the to-do list,

but it will happen today, but it's just a side note.

Because we're, I think we're more of multitaskers

and you guys want to crown if you go to the bathroom.

It's like, okay.

Anyway, moving on.

Moving on.

How's how's the world?

In Utah, it's fantastic.

And I hope this happens in Texas soon.

It feels like fall, praise God.

Like, you can tell that

the heat has broken in Utah, and

I pray for that in Texas soon.

Yes, um, well,

I'm in California, right at the moment, and it's,

uh, def- it's gone from above 100 to about 80.

Very recently.

We do, though, we, this is kind of the time

of year, this in springtime when we get some foggy mornings, which are really cool.

And when it gets really hot, the fog,

right over the mountains where I can see, you know, rolls in

off the ocean and cools everything off, so it's kind of a blessing

to our weather pattern, which is why we've attracted Joe Beaver

to the central coast of California, by the way, it's our weather.

But, um, Or maybe it helps the joints.

Well, there, and there's, but there's also

been a lot of uh, fire smoke, wildfire smoke

haze in a lot of different places, including here.

Yeah, there's the, of course,

there's lots of smoke in North Central Texas with that big

Ross fire, praying for all the families and the structures and the cattle.

But it does look in the last few days like, again, I'm not a fireman.

And all I get is to try to find the credible reports.

Um, but it has small spread lines, but they're

able to do, they're, they're starting to be able to kind

of make it live within itself.

Um, and maybe it won't grow so

much anymore.

I mean, it was jumping, you know, 20,000 acres or something a

night, and it doesn't look like it's doing that.

And so maybe, and then there's rain.

there's rain, there's like a hurricane thing coming in and Houston

and up there's getting it.

think it's going to push far enough up there for the Ross fire, but man,

it's deadly dangerous.

It's deadly dangerous.

You know?

And it was interesting because one of the guy that takes care of

my place sent me a note.

He said, hey, I think you probably should brush hog your place and I said,

do you realize that that's how most of the fires start in Texas when it's this dry?

Is brush hogging?

People hit rocks, start a spark.

You don't brush hog when it's this dry, people,

and oh, guess what?

You don't weld on the fence.

Oh, and guess what?

You don't park a hot truck in the middle of the field.

I mean, these people just keep doing stupid things.

Yeah, I got a scary call a few years ago,

a guy, a sweet old rancher driving down our

little 2 lane road had, like his tailpipe

was dragging or something and started everything on fire.

Um, it happens pretty easily.

Also, I can't believe in this day and age people throw cigarette

butts out the window, but some people still do.

But um, anyway, as we roll into Labor Day weekend.

For me, that means Ellensburg, right?

And so I think, uh, really cool, uh,

congratulations to Sage Kimsy, uh,

Stephen Peebles, who, came back from a

terrible healthcare a couple years ago and the Orchid

family, congratulations on being inducted into the Ellensburg Hall of Fame.

And I, Couldn't

make it till the very end for the best of the best roping that they

had last night there at the rodeo grounds, but I got

up before the chickens this morning and watched the

tail end of the open of the best of the best roping right there and

um, Cody Snow and Nikki Northcott won a pile.

At the roping, um, preliminary.

I know they're having slack today.

It's it's Wednesday the 2nd and Slack is

um, lighting up the Ellensburg

rodeo grounds, but really cool when you can

put 10s of 1000s of dollars in your pocket on the eve of Slack.

So, thank you, Ellensburg.

Well, and you're going to join me in Pendleton, which is very exciting.

I'm working and getting ready for the rank

45 Pendleton Expols finale at the Happy Canyon Arena.

That's what I get to contribute to the Pendleton roundup.

And interesting like, Side note.

Um, There,

there's a bar down by the ground up grounds that

was traditionally always open late, that's not

going to be open late this year.

So the Pendleton Committee is going to keep their fan zone

during the bull riding and stuff open later because

everybody used to walk across the street and now they can't.

So, interesting side note, I don't know why a bar

would close early in Pendleton, but that's what I hear.

Guess what?

We have a special guest that I think is fixing to come on.

So we're going to, we think it's a proper time to welcome

to our studio, the director of rodeo

administration for the professional rodeo cowboys association, Steve Knowles.

Hello, Steve.

Good morning to y'all.

I assume you're sitting in Colorado and you haven't started riding

your bike to Wyoming yet.

I haven't been sitting in Colorado Springs.

It's still summertime here.

I just mentioned it's becoming fall in Utah.

You're not seeing any signs of fall there in the springs.

It's 90 degrees today for the high.

So we've had record heat

here for so far.

Well, that's fantastic.

Well, good morning.

Thank you for joining us

We're just going to do a little round table with you.

I will say this, because our fans, I think,

um, you know, Kendra's fans on ours, I've

been in this business a really long time, and I've,

I think that you've done the

very best job in that position that I've ever

seen for a couple of reasons.

For one, I think you're straightforward.

Um, and and part of what I want to get

into today is that all of the

armchair quarterbacks, you know, it's very interesting, and I I've

mentioned this before, I learned this when I got on a school board.

Before I got on the school board, I thought everybody was doing everything wrong.

And when I got on the board, I realized that there's so

much information that people don't have when a decision is made.

And 90% of the time people are making decisions that

they think are best based on the information they have.

And so my point is, and then I'll turn it over to Kendra to visit with you a little bit.

This is a thankless job and I think, and

I'm not saying this because you're on.

I'm telling my, the people that trust me, Steve

Knowles is is a good one and does the PRC an

excellent job in a very demanding position.

So, Kendra,

I'll let you fire away at Steve with some questions and then I'll I'll

throw some in and we'll get this thing started.

Okay, well.

As the girl who 1st started at the PRCA

on January 12th, 1987 fresh out of college.

There's, this is a random question,

but just curious, like.

I would so often hear when

I was, you know, brand new, fresh face, you know.

It was so often said,

the part of the culture in the office was those

stupid cowboys, like they were a pain in the ass, you know?

Please tell me that in 2026,

the culture of the office.

Has evolved beyond that.

It has evolved, and I remind people,

we still have people probably here that were started close to the time you are.

The culture, you know, we work for this association.

those are our customers.

Um, you know, even when I got here, it was so much

we were in charge.

We told them.

They worked for us, but it's not, we work for them.

And we can't always give in to everything they want to do.

But we do try to help people.

You know, we, I always try to find a way to say yes.

Uh, and it's hard to always say that,

but that's always my goal is to say yes to whatever the question is.

Sometimes I can't.

As long as it's compliant to the rule book.

As long as compliant to the rule book, if we can help somebody

out, we we want to.

That's our goal.

You know, is to make it easy.

We we hate fines.

We hate conflicts.

We want to try to please as many people as we can.

Within the rules.

And yet in a way, I mean,

I always know that you have a thankless job.

I've known a lot of directors of radio administration and it is very,

it's very tough because you get, what, mostly

complaint calls, right?

People questioning something and then you have to.

It's not always fun to answer the questions, right?

But my question is, I feel like it's impossible.

Here, it's, it's, if you work for the PRCA,

it's a member organization.

So the way I always would say when those, when

people would say, oh, those, those stupid cowboys, I'd be like, that's our boss.

That's who we work for.

But it's, it is.

It feels like it's fundamentally impossible.

to make everyone happy

when you're talking about members being contestants,

stock contractors, contract personnel, right?

Correct.

And I find 90% of my calls are

not even questions I can answer.

They just want to be heard.

You know, if you'll listen, take the time to listen to somebody.

It'll satisfy it a lot of times.

You know, there is hard questions that I do have to answer, but just

listen, you know.

Be a good listener.

That's what I think that's what I'm good at.

So did I hear you say earlier?

That all of your decisions are based

on the rule book.

Well, I would like to think so.

I've made decisions with my heart.

Also, that usually bites me in the butt

at the end of the day.

Fair enough.

You know, if you're a compassionate person, it's hard not to, to

let your emotions get involved on decision making.

I've been wrong a lot of times.

So, but I try to stick by my decision right or wrong.

How do you serve the

top 15, which is the minority of the membership?

And also serve.

Those who are not top 15 types

who make up the majority.

How do you do that?

You know, I don't, I guess my most of my time has dealt

with non-top 15 issues.

Um, You know, the top 15, they're they're the winners.

They the Korean.

They're going to they're going to win the most.

Uh, you know, most of my, you know, I do a lot of

circuit level decisions and conversations.

You know, that's the guys.

I really strive to help the circuit guys.

You know, that is the back boat of what we have.

The top 15 is always going to be successful.

But you're killing the circuit guys by letting by

letting all of these sharks in every circuit.

I know.

I know.

Whose decision?

Whose decision is that?

Well, it's always the board makes the decisions.

I just have to go by the board's decision.

Doesn't it feel like that's cutting the throat of the circuit guys on our own?

It is, it is, but also the top 15,

they support the circuit.

So I have the, I have their back.

They're willing to go to the 15 rodeos that

support their circuit.

They're a circuit cowboy defeat, even though they, they're

also NFR cowboy.

I think you can be both.

It's hard, but you can be both.

Is the circuit system there too?

Serve circuit contestants or the top 15?

Well, circuit.

Circuit people, which can be a top 15 guy.

And in Tommy Joe's circuit, the wilderness, it's a monster.

They have the biggest, best rodeos as circuit rodeos.

You know, so if they go to the 15 minimum

requirement, 15 rodeos, the right family.

They're circuit cowboys.

Even though they're able to make the, you know, R.

You know, you can be both, in my opinion, as well.

And it's, it's not.

It's not the, it's not the top 15's

fault that they're able to go to 15 circuit

rodeos and win more than the circuit guys that

can go to 40.

It's not their fault.

And I don't know that it's fair to cut them out in it.

And, and, you know, I, I've been, I've been

talking with people about this, and they're like, whoa, you just, you

just go off of their driver's license.

Well, let me tell you something.

There's kids that get into the Brock school that use the

grandparents' addresses.

There's always ways around that.

So don't don't give me that.

But, you know, kindred, it is kind of fair.

If a guy can go there to 15 rodeos, is that the, is that the minimum,

you have to compete in a circuit to be able to, be a circuit guy?

It is, it is now, as a circuit

resident, 15 is the minimum.

And I think it's dependent on how many rodeos are in your circuit.

I think they can go as high as 18.

That's up to the circuit board.

Well, if you're if you're a non-fundamentally,

if you're a non-resident, you have to go to more rodeos to count that circuit, right?

Correct.

Yeah, 15's the, uh, you know, 15 would be the circuit rather.

You know, but as Tommy Joe said,

You know, they have, where do they live?

Who knows where they live?

You know, they consider.

You know, we just got to go by where they get their mail.

Um, you know, where they pay their power bill.

Who knows?

I have a Florida tiger's license, Tommy Joe.

You know, I've been living in Colorado Springs, so there you go.

I, I, On the circuit

thing, I mean, this is a, this is a conversation that's gone on for,

for decades and and, and I, I went to the 1st

ever DNCFR, you know, precursor

to the RNCFR and now the NFR open in Pocatello,

Idaho in 1987.

And, and a few years in, maybe around

1994.

So when Jake and Clay were winning their 7th world titles or whatever.

I remember being at the national circuit finals,

and Jake Barnes was like a brother to me, and him saying, Kendra,

we shouldn't be here, and they won it like a record number of times.

And he said, this is this is supposed to be the

day in the sun for the circuit guys.

But it counts, and so we have to be here.

And I don't know what you guys say to that, but it's

like, should the NFR Open count toward the world standings?

What do you guys think?

Personally, I think, yes, I think

if you're able to qualify there, you should count.

I'm a big guy that everything should count.

You know, all your money once you tell.

Um,

I do see the circuit, you know, I know Jack Hanna very well.

He's the designer, the father of the circuit system.

So, You know, I know what he had in mind and

it wasn't for the top 15 guys.

It's just change with the money.

you know the money's so big.

Uh, The circuit rodeos are bigger.

It's a double edged sword, and our board flips every other year,

whether it counts, whether it doesn't count.

Um, you know,

Whatever way we go, we always make half the people angry.

Well, that's a problem in itself because when you go to

changing rules every other year, and somebody's worked really

hard this year, to comply with the rules as

they are, and then they flip next year, it's very frustrating, as you well

know, pretty good.

you know, it was on our,

It was on our board agenda this year to discuss with

new rules, whether it counted or not.

They didn't act on it.

Um, But they could have, you know, they could have switched right now.

And you're exactly right.

I put the finish line out there, then somebody makes it,

then we flip, and it's always hard.

I'm I want to stay consistent.

However we do it.

Stay consistent and currently we've been counting it.

And personally, that's, I feel like that's the way it should be.

I feel like it would be helpful to people who

who aren't really clear how it works, for you

to, for us to step all the way back, for you, you know, you're the

PRCA director of rodeo administration and, and hey,

you know, Tom Glouse is the commissioner.

How you guys work with

the PRCA board of directors and what powers you

guys have and don't have and how much are you guys carrying

out with the board decides and how much do you guys decide?

You know, as far as rules board

has 100% of the decision making, on what

rules get, ask, what rules don't.

Tom is, he is, uh, He

has the power to run all the day to day operations.

He can make decisions, he can sign contracts.

And I get, I can do any business thing

as long as Tom's approved without the board.

But rules are not touchable for me.

I can't, you know, I can have rules proposed as a staff member.

But the board still has to act on them and say

yay or nay on them.

It takes years to get a new rule pass, doesn't it?

About 3 years, you know, time you get it posted.

It has to sit, you know, for a couple years.

They act on it, then it, you know, about year 3 is when it kicks in.

It does, they can expedite rules.

They do.

Sometimes and it usually is.

Does it turn out well when we do because they, it ain't

that time to vet these, you know, you really got to think through some of these rule changes before.

They're acted on, and that 3 year, 2

year, 2 to 3 year process seems like a vetting time for everybody to think about.

Would you guys want to talk about some of the biggest

role changes for 2027?

Is this good a time as any?

Sure, absolutely.

You know, and I think members, contestant wise,

our biggest one's probably the turnout deadlines, uh, Currently

for, since I can remember, was 3 hours and it's moved back to 5 hours.

So, it is a benefit for,

um, I think it's a bigger benefit for kind of incondestants,

because as you know, Kendra, if they had a morning slack,

8 AM slack somewhere, the turnout deadline was 5

PM the night before.

So, you know, a lot of things happen

in middle of night, whether you, was that a rodeo competing?

Now it's a real time 5 hour, so at 8 AM slack,

you know, turns into a 3 AM turnout deadlight.

And the biggest changes, now it's implemented

on real time, you do it on your phone or on your app.

And it's real time.

You can do it from your couch.

You can do it from your car.

You don't have to call anybody.

You can just push a button.

So what's the benefit of that to contestants?

They can, you know, a lot of time debate contestants

are up at a rodeo on that night.

You know, say Friday night and they're

up at a slack Saturday morning.

Well, they had to turn out the slack.

At 5 PM.

What if they get hurt that night at the rodeo or injured?

They had no way to turn out.

They already passed the deadline.

Now that turnout deadline for them is 3 AM for a 8 AM slack.

Does it also allow for more walk up replacements?

Um, I think it's the same opportunity for walk up replacements.

We don't replace people in the slack.

You can't walk up in the slack. unless it's

a perform, you know, you have to be in a performance to be on the walkout.

It could.

You know, it gives them more time to figure out who's going to walk up.

There's a couple more hours there.

Give stock contractors more time to, uh,

uh, you know, put their day sheets together, they run

a show, their stock list with it, you know, gives them a couple extra hours on that.

I think there's benefit for all.

What other big rules are changing in 2027?

Big, the big rules, uh, stock contractor memberships

have really, you know, we've been on a 2 year, uh,

Not selling any new memberships in the stock contract in the world.

They open that back up.

October 1st and it, uh,

financially it's a big, a larger investment than

what economy was.

Um, I think in the past, about 67,000

could get you started, and now I think it's 175,000, so it's quite a jump.

Who's that money going to?

Well, that's that's membership fees.

That's bond.

Um, inspection fees.

Uh, the, you get a bond.

You know, you have to put a bond up for 3 years.

You get it back, which is a 100 thousand.

Of that.

Did it used to be that you could only get in if

you bought out somebody else's old existing card?

There was a, yeah, for there was a few years of that way too,

and you can still get in that way.

But now you, and you have to have a lot of the,

the rodeo, you have to find 5 new rodeos.

Uh, $5,000.

Anybody with $165,000

in 5 new rodeos can now pretend to be a stock contractor.

If they have the stock, if they beat the stock requirement.

And that's the inspection.

Inspection, and you have to have 50 horses,

25 bulls, uh, and all that, yes.

There's some evaluation processors you go through.

And who does the evaluations?

Uh, you know, the valuation, we go actually

sit and watch some of their rodeos.

Whether they're amateur or whatever.

Do they have to own all those bulls and bucking

horses or can they be subcontracted?

Nope, they have to own a minimum of 50 horses and 25 bulls.

How good do they have to be?

Uh, you know, we

don't have that process yet, you know, if you have 25.

You don't really know how to judge them correctly, so you'd have a hard time with that.

That's exactly right

We'd have to.

find a real judge.

But that's some of the big changes

we have here this year.

Um, they're, okay, what about,

there's one that has spoken to a lot of my cowboy

friends that now, you have to add 2500

per event, minimum to become a PRC rodeo, is that right?

That's common.

Um, This, if you're a brand new rodeo

coming, yes, you have to have 2500 or more per van.

Um, but if you're an existing rodeo,

you have 3 years to get to that.

What was the previous minimum?

Uh, $500.

Yikes.

So that's fantastic.

2030

I believe it is, everybody will be at minimum of 25.

That's progress.

It is.

I mean, it's 1500 this year.

It jumps to 2000 and then it goes to, to uh, 25.

What about the one in a short thing?

They passed a rule where you have to have in the time defense?

You have to have 2 full go rounds.

to have a finals in the time?

Why is that?

What's what's the benefit for people who don't understand that?

Our time event, guys?

They don't like one go round in a short go for whatever reason.

They just feel like their odds of getting through are not as good.

So the time to get guys like the 2 go rounds, you

know, costs more to get there.

So they like to be guaranteed to go route.

It also cost the rodeo committee a lot more money.

We had about 3 or 4 rodeos that

didn't meet that requirement currently.

Um, and that was Casper Caldwell, maybe Tucson.

And there may be one more that didn't meet.

So my question, and I did ask out about that.

I'm like, talk to me about one in the shorts, you know, they're not going to have that anymore.

He goes, thank goodness.

He goes, we hated it.

It's fundamentally like a, like a one header.

You know, you have to draw something just to get a 2nd chance and

if you've gone somewhere else.

Then you have to go back, you know, so like

he's like, I take a 2 straight 2 or

a 2 and a short all day long.

Everybody would, you know, because you don't have to draw the best one and all that kind of stuff,

but, but do you feel, do you have a, a

gut at, at how rodeos will respond?

The ones that had one in a short?

Do you think that they'll go to 2 in a short?

Oh, I'm not sure, because it's a, as Tommy Jokin could

verify, the cost of an additional go round is quite high.

You know, there's some costs there.

I don't know.

I think each committee's going to have to look and decide what if they want to.

Yeah, well, it it doesn't essentially

double your cost, but you can take,

you can take your original cost for any particular timed event.

And multiply that time 60%.

And that's what it's going to cost you.

To do that.

And that's, you know, I know, I know it doesn't matter.

It needs to be great for the cowboys, but that is.

That's a tough pill for some of these events.

And we, that's why we all need to talk

and also compromise happens.

We, we, we talk about it all the time, Tommy Joe.

If we don't ultimately look out for the greatest good of the sport.

Then we all lose.

But the sport is ran by the Cowboys.

The PRCA is a Cowboy Association, and

the control, the ultimate control is by the Cowboys, fair enough.

That's what we all agree.

So that means that ultimately things fall.

On the cowboy side, more than it does.

The other people.

And that's fine because that's the governing body of

the sport and probably should be.

But the reality is, that there's

way more influence on what the cowboys want than what's

good for the committees or the fans or that, there's

more influence for what is good for the cowboys.

And that's what makes it even more difficult, is you've got 9 disciplines,

technically, all of them with different needs and wants that

makes their particular part of rodeo great.

And that's the balancing act that Knowles has to deal with and

properties and everything on a daily basis.

I'm not saying that it's easy.

Right.

But even in every event, you have such diversity

in what people are seeking, whether they're a circuit

contestant or a top 15 person or whatever it is.

Um, on the hardcore contestant type stuff.

Okay, here we are, we just stepped

into September, and if all goes

according to plan, um, there will be, uh,

some of the New Mexico, uh, ports are going to open to

M branded cattle, which, which I have just

kind of written about, you know, the

subject, and looking at it from, from all, all

viewpoints, I think, you know, a lot of the cowboys

historically prefer the embryans, but, but in fairness, the native

Have saved the day and also, in fairness,

the cattle they're about to come across, the horned cattle, from

Mexico will, in a lot of people's words, be a

drop in the bucket, you know, to the to the supply and demand,

to the need, um, to the demand for for cattle.

So the PRCA while the border's been closed.

Knowles, tell us a little bit about that as far as, um,

there was, how the rules have at

least temporarily changed to, to allow for the use of,

of native cattle.

And in the words of Tyler Wagisbach saying to me the other day, you

know, thank you to the producers of native cattle, especially

people who manage them well and know how to break them incorrectly because

they have kept us in a job, you know, while the embrands were not here.

And I agree, you know, in our rule, the

steer wrestling is the only rule that says you have to use Mexican bred cattle.

The team are open just as Mexican descent, which,

I mean, long orange or Mexican descent.

So, the, and Riley Duval has been wonderful with these

communities and stock contractors and had to, had to approve

natives.

Um, and I don't know a lot about it, but they say natives are, are

hard to keep, honest or even or whatever the word is.

You know, they're smart.

And so Riley has had a lot of patience

and circled around and done a lot of sorting.

To make these natives good.

I think you're going to see.

I don't know, but I think we might see a pen of natives at the NFR this year.

Very fine.

Bobby Joe Hill said that he, if

everything goes according to plan and they are crossed in time, that

that will be the case.

Well, he was talking about the team roughing cattle.

Um, but, but the thing, uh,

you know, one of the basics that came out of all my conversations

with the various people in the, you know, um,

Bulldog and team rapping cattle industry

is that, for one thing, you know, the natives are younger.

And they haven't lived as hard of a life.

And, and, you know, it, it, but people, there

are a lot of people raising native cattle that are

doing one hell of a job.

We will all say that and say thank you to them.

And I think the native cattle will just develop so fast.

You know, the Mexican calorie just on tough, tough

times down there, and they don't develop, you know,

our, our calorie just grow faster.

The, The conditions are better.

So I think it makes them grow faster than we'd like.

We'd rather a slower growth.

You know, a later maturing animal, but we've got to use what we can use.

I tell you at the NFR this year, if we do use native

cattle, we'll bring its 4th pin of cattle.

to where you don't have to run anything uh, more than 3 times.

Currently, we have to run one of those pins a 4th time.

And they say that 4th run on the natives would really be rough.

Well, the ones that learn tricks, it's going to get worse, right?

Yeah, but they all learn tricks.

Oh my.

I can't believe that you guys can have a 30 minute conversation about cows.

Holy moly.

Well, but it but the so the

only thing I have to add, because you know, this stuff is beyond my

expertise, but it sounds like

if I'm buying something to rent, the

M branded cattle, you can rent them, they're much more competitive

for much longer time because they basically don't,

they've been eating on 6 blades of grass their whole life.

They can live on rocks and they don't grow.

So it's like buying a DeWalt drill compared to

some cheap one.

Um, they just last longer.

So it seems like they're a better investment.

You got to, don't you have to alternate native cattle more just

because they get too big too quick?

I think so.

I think so.

And you, you gotta, you can't just take them week after week.

I think they got to have some rest.

I see.

Just don't know if they're tough enough internally.

Well, while we're talking about the NFR.

It was probably a year ago whenever you jumped on with us last time.

We had a conversation.

Well, it's probably you've been on with us several times, once a

year usually, and we love when you come on.

But the one of the years, a couple years ago was

when you were implementing instant replay at the NFL.

But you were implementing it only.

For like 3 calls.

I'm making that up.

But it wasn't very much, which I think was a brilliant decision to make sure you got it right.

Then you expanded it last year.

With a complete catastrophe during it.

Again, I'm not

I'm just saying from a perception standpoint, right?

Um, the Stetson Wright deal seemed like a blown deal.

We don't I don't even want to get into that.

I'm over that.

You know, and I think Stetson, everybody's over it.

But so my question to you is instant replay NFR

2026, what can you tell us about the

judging and instant replay?

We didn't change anything from last year on the rules.

Um, you know, we're, we're, we're, Replaying

time, slaps, um, you know, disqualifications

of any kind, markouts.

So we're consistent this year with what we did last

year, barrier calls.

Um, And we'll have 2 people in the replay

booth together to confirm, you know, to

work together to, to do it.

And, and maybe even, we're considering just to

tick more time to make your decision, you know, not, not

5 minutes by no means, but a few more seconds if we need, you know, we can slow down.

Yeah, come on.

I heard that they only had X amount of seconds and

that's complete baloney.

If you're gonna, this is, this is it.

This is the Super Bowl.

I know there's people out there

dont like me calling it that.

But this is the Super Bowl.

Yeah, if you're gonna do it, get it right.

And I'm 100% in your favor on that.

Give them time because here's the other thing.

Remember initially, you and I talked.

We all talked about the fact that you had to convince the field judges.

So bear with me, listeners, to go ahead and throw the flag.

So let's talk about a markout.

In theory, you want to convince

those field judges, because this is what the NFL had to convince their

field officials to go ahead and throw

a flag because they have to be able to rely rely

on the replay officials and their angles to

get it right if they saw it wrong.

And that's a confidence thing, right?

Who wants to be a judge out there and throw a flag and then the

next day, 17000000 people are telling you you're

blind, and you can't run, and you're too fat,

and all of this stuff when, isn't it

true, Steve, you want them to, in theory, if they think they saw it,

they throw the flag and they've got to rely on those replay

officials to verify that, and

they need to have enough time to do it.

They do fair?

Agreed.

And that was a that was a learning curve for us on the timing last year.

You know, I think we, we pressed him a little too, too fast.

Um, But you're, you're right.

It's a confidence thing.

You got to have confidence in it and it's a blown, you know.

I know you don't want to talk about the Stetson Wright deal

as a confidence guy as a judge, that could just bust you

wide open, you know.

Yeah.

But we don't want that to happen.

We wanna get it right.

Well, and there's no doubt that he, he threw,

he thought he saw what he saw, whether he was in the position on again.

This is this is a very old conversation.

But my point is, what everybody else

saw in the replay booth or what everybody else noticed after the fact.

Should have been noticed in the replay booth, enough said.

100%.

But we are, we're, we're staying consistent with our calls.

You know, just maybe a little more time to review

is what we're looking at.

Other than that, we'll have 2 guys in there together.

Now, when we're talking about judges, so we're on judges.

I think a birdie told me.

You guys are finally giving those guys a raise.

Is that true?

We did started yesterday, actually September 1st.

Um, Tom budgeted a little, uh, not

a large, not a large raise, you know, not life changing,

but it's a start.

It is a start to all the reserves.

And it actually goes on their expense site.

On their per diem side and their food stipe inside.

Well, that's because coffee costs 10 bucks now.

So you guys finally caught up to what they're spending on site.

Well I don't know.

They're going to have to live within their means.

We didn't give them enough.

So you're able to eat one sandwich and

ramen noodles and 3 powdered donuts and

you'll be in the PRCA per diem if they sleep in their car.

No, we're...

That's what I love about Knowles right there.

That's what I love them all.

You know, it's a several $100,000 investment on the PRC.

When you compound that.

So let's take that into consideration.

When you give it to one, you give it to all, it's a big impact.

But that's what we need.

We have to treat these.

I always liken rodeo judges to teachers.

I'm like, well, I don't believe that there should be any tenure because it's

such an important position and people shouldn't be grandfathered in, right?

You're either, you either really care you don't, but to attract and

and hold on to the people who are, you

know, passionate about it and very qualified.

They need to be paid.

They got to, you know, you're, you're wanting some young guys

fresh out of their rodeo career to, to consider this and you

got to pay them enough to raise a family to have a home.

You know, they've lived on their in their car for the 1st 10 years of their career.

You need to pay them enough to buy a house and enjoy life.

I mean, you got to pay that bareback rider good

so he can flag the caff open.

Exactly.

That's right.

Okay.

All right, deeper question, and then I'll

kick it back over to Kendra.

And I'm going to, you might have to think about this, but I think this would be really interesting to ask you.

What's the hardest decision you can remember making?

For the PRCA that people

outside of it would never realize that had to be made.

The hardest decision.

It's a personal decision when I came here.

I guess ours decision was for me to decide to come.

I'm glad you did

And some days my horror decisions, whether I want to go to work or not.

Well, y'all have to.

I've had some mornings where I'm thinking, oh, man, I don't know about this,

but, you know, we've had some decision.

I've had some some lifetime life

changing decisions I've had to make with some contestants on

rodeo account, on rules, on rulings

that cost them from going to the NFL.

You know, and you don't know at the time it may be

their only chance in a lifetime.

To go.

I, there's 2 or 3 guys that, you know, it, it really

was close to home to rule against him on some grievances

that cost him from going to the NFL.

I can understand.

And that's where the, that's where people forget that you have.

You have feel, you know, no, I don't want to say

that because that makes you sound gay, but it's personal too.

Like you understand the lifestyle part of it.

I wanted to say you have feelings too, but I don't know if that's true.

Well, and I do sometimes I try not to let

my emotions get involved, but sometimes I'm human, you know.

I do.

I'm a fan too at the end of the day.

I a rodeo fan.

What misconceptions frustrate you?

On, and so what misconceptions

in the animal welfare game frustrate you?

And then what, what are, what's the industry doing?

The leaders, you guys over there in the springs doing currently

to combat that.

You know, you know all the misconceptions

from the animal world, animal rights world is, you

know, we tore in and we teach them to do this.

We put flight straps on their genitals.

Um, what do we, we spend?

We spend a lot of time, money, and effort.

You know, we pay, we have 2 lobbyists that we pay.

Um, and sometimes I have a

different feeling about lobbyists, you know, they're, they're politicians,

but, but we've.

Necessary evil.

necessary evil.

But they're necessary, yes.

And so we have 2 lobbyists we pay.

Um, you know, Scott Norncamp, he monitors all,

all kinds of, uh, news and just

tries to stay ahead of it.

Dr. Corey, our veterinarian, you know, he

stays on top of that thing, but we spend a lot of money trying

to stay on top of that and it's, it's an uphill battle.

I don't know sometimes if we're doing any good, but we stay on all of that.

You're paying the lobbyist to tell the truth.

Get the truth out there, right?

And you know, we we send people to some of these hearings.

We spent a lot of time in Orange County, California or

no LA, the LA City band, what they were trying to ban rodeo.

You know, we spend a lot of hours over there and time and money.

And, you know, fortunately right now it's kind of at a standstill.

They dropped it, but it'll, it'll flare back up.

Well, you, you should have rein our roster on your payroll

because nobody's worked harder in the Western states.

On that front, then Reno and

his lineage.

So he should get a paycheck 2nd thing.

Um, this is a shout out.

You know, you talked about Mr. Dorn camp.

I want to tell you he's doing a good job and I'm going to share with everybody something that I thought was fantastic.

So, They had some trouble

in Salinas with a Hispanic rodeo.

This is not, has nothing to do with the PRCA,

but it does indirectly because it, it reflects

on the overall culture of the sport.

Mr. Dornkamp sent me a note and said, um,

do me a favor.

There's a Mexican rodeo coming to Salt Lake City.

Will you help pay, you know, let's pay attention to this.

And that's fantastic.

That's technically that's out of the PRCA's

jurisdiction, but the fact that he reached out to me, had done his research.

I then immediately acted, right?

To put warnings out to say, make sure that these

guys are doing things the way we do it north

of the border, not south of the border.

And, um, much

respect for their culture.

We don't do it that way up here.

We don't do it.

We can't, we can't do it that way up here.

And so hats off to Mr. Dorncamp.

He's doing a good job, Steve.

Well, the general public doesn't always differentiate

between a PRCA rodeo and a non-sanctioned rodeo for one thing.

So, and to your point about Reno

Rosser, he is his father's son.

Cotton Rosser was, was on the forefront before there

was a forefront.

He, he went out of his road all the time to

take people behind the, Scenes behind the

chutes and show them how fat and sassy those fucking horses were

and and really talk to them.

And, and you know, cotton would be like, you know, what's scary

is so many kids in America today think eggs come from the grocery store.

you know, we have to show them.

What, what it, what's all about, you know, to be a

cowboy and and what it's really like.

And, and also on the point of people

not necessarily differentiating between

a professional rodeo and non, The

charros helped save the day in LA.

When we went to battle and we went to court, the

Charos showed up for professional rodeo, and they

helped save the day on cultural standing,

and and we owe them a lot.

So if we could work together, you know, it

would be to everyone's betterment, you know.

The sports, it'd be best for the sport.

You know, at Salinas, the bull riding accident they had there.

You know, it was right in front of the chutes.

The sign was in the background, the Salinas rodeo,

you know, so, so you could see where people could confuse

it with being the Salinas rodeo.

Yeah, um, so this one's,

yeah, I like, I wrote this question, but I don't know if I

want to ask it, but I'm going to go ahead and ask it.

So if you were commissioner for a day.

Without politics or any limitations,

you're a dictator.

What would be your 1st change?

Uh, you know, I'll give you a pass on that one.

But I did want to ask it.

Just so you crinkled up your drawers a little bit on that one.

Yeah, I don't know.

I can't.

That's it.

Uh, dangerous cave to get into.

Well, this one I think is a cool, a cool question.

Um, and and Kendra, I would ask

it to you too, because I think this will be interesting.

Maybe all 3 of us respond to this question because I think it's a cool one.

What moment in rodeo in your rodeo history,

all 3 of us, and we'll, and we'll start with.

With probably Kendra, because she's probably the quickest respondative.

What moment in rodeo history gives you chill that you remember?

Do you remember?

Even, you know what I'm saying?

Um, something that happened that,

You think you

were there and it changed the trajectory of the sport.

Well, I don't know about changing

the trajectory of the sport, but when you said a moment,

For me, like the 2 that

instantly came to my mind were Lane Frost

dying in front of my eyes and Jake Barnes

losing his right thumb right in front of me.

And helping spot Alan

Bach running in there to find it on the NFR arena floor and

me pointing.

I mean, that was insane.

Those, those moments

both give me chills and I pretty sure always will.

Yeah, what about you, Knowles?

Can you think about it?

No, and sorry to be on the same.

Pages, Kinder.

The 1st time I went to the NFR in Las Vegas is

when Brent Thurman got stepped on and died.

And I still remember that, you know, vivid.

So, you know, I don't,

it was, you know, it's very sad today.

I knew Brent, in on another part,

you know, the Stetson Wright, they, you know, when I see him try.

You know, it just gets me excited in goosebumps

today too, you know, the guy never quits.

Yeah, you can I can remember.

You know, Stetson reminds me.

Of course, now this is on the rough stock end, of course,

because I'm not necessarily a time demand guy.

But when Ty Murray was about to

ride, Everybody watched.

Right?

including me, who's seen 17000000000 rodeos.

When Ty wrote book, well, everything Ty did,

you watched because it was never, never

not, never not 100%, which is probably

not the right English, but it was always 100%,

and, um, same thing with Stetson.

Right?

It's just, it's, it gives me chills.

Now the flip side of that, I'll say my dark

side of chills, and I was there with Jerome Davis, right?

Um, and right on the dirt floor.

And my job was always to

go back to Tandy, right?

So that we could see what kind of report we could give to everybody.

And I looked at Tandy and he just did this.

He just, no comment, right?

And I remember my heart.

Right?

Because, you know, we all see these people hit the ground and not move

and all of us immediately, right?

Or like, 0 no.

And when they move, like if you,

you as a spectator, you think it's great when you hear

that someone's moving, all of us in these screens do the same thing,

we're like, praise God.

Praise God, you know.

So, I thought that was.

And when that happened, I too was working for the PVR and, and

talking to Jerome right then and there and,

He was.

I mean, he was scared to death, but he was,

you know, I, I, like he believed

he was, he was, you know, his, his positive

mind was not saying die, you know, and,

and he's like, I'm, I'm going

to keep, you know, getting up out of bed every day.

But I don't know, Kendra, if I'll be still be

this joyful and, you know, if, if you talk to me in 10 years

and I, and I'm still on this chair.

I don't know if I'll be this good of a sport about it.

By golly, to his credit, he's

done amazing things and keeps doing amazing things.

That's his sidekick his wife, right?

Those 2 are superheroes.

They are inspirations for everybody.

They're awesome.

I'll tell you on one more thing on Jerome.

I was judging some PBR bull ridings at the time and not

long after that, we went to Charlotte.

Cody said you weren't a very good judge, by the way.

Tough heat him and push Drome out there in his wheelchair.

And it was the most emotional thing I've

probably ever witnessed, you know.

Because for those who don't know, Jerome got hurt at Tufts bull riding.

And and that, I will never

forget being at, at the finals that year,

there was a, there was an event, you know,

to raise money for Jerome, and tough auctioned

off his, his gold buckle.

And, um,

And I remember him saying, all

you sons of bitches with pocket paw, like, something about pocket

palsy, like, get your hands out of your pockets, get your hands in the air, you know?

But, um, tough took that.

That deal hard and um, never

let up on being Jerome's friend.

He was a great friend in Rome.

He was a great friend.

Yes.

All right, well, we went pretty good.

Let's, um, I'll do one more and then if, if, if

Kendra has one more.

I think this one's kind of more of a, I'm interested

in your input on this.

In our last podcast.

Um, when we were talking to Billy Ward.

You know, today's rodeo athlete

is much more of a sports athlete, it seems like, right?

Um, where 50 years ago,

these were more kids off of ranches, right?

That were developed in a lot of different ways.

Do you think that the evolution

of rodeo, like where do you balance tradition?

And evolution.

Do you guys in the office, I'm sure this comes up all the time, right?

Well, this rodeo's done it this way for 50 years, well, we're changing the rule.

Where do you?

how can how do you make that decision?

How do all of us make that decision?

Right, of protecting what got us here.

But accepting evolution

so we can grow.

I agree.

We fight that all the time.

You know, we we want to honor art history.

We always want to honor our history, but I don't think we can let it hold us back either.

There's always going to be evolution.

There's always going to be bigger and better contestants, bigger

and better bulls and horses and whatever.

Um, I think we got to honor our history and

keep looking forward and keep evolving, or if we

keep doing the same thing we've always done, you know what the results are, Tommy, though.

And, you know, we'll be out of business.

So, I think we really have to forge ahead and just keep honoring our history.

Miss Santos, since you're the expert.

You run, you were on this.

When you talk about, um, the

athletes that, that, you know, they used to call them cowboys

and now they call them, Athletes, um,

the one cautionary tale, uh,

The 1st person I thought of when you were talking

about that, how today's athletes, and I thought, I, whatever

reason, I thought of J.B. Mooney, and I, and, and

I'm like, he's got a cigarette and one hand a beer in the other,

and he's a gangster, but I don't know that you should follow his

lead if you want to be the king of bull riding today.

But, um, he pulled it off, but that's because there's only

one JB Mooney ever.

So there, there is that.

But, but I think, you know, when you're talking about the,

the athletes today, it's just because it's so tough.

Like, Steve, you're talking about this sport evolving.

I mean, you know, it's like, oh, just, just

go to the caff roping, look at the evolution of the, you

know, Dean Oliver hands the torch to Roy

Cooper, and, you know, along the way, there's Joe Beaver

and Fred Whitfield and Cody Ole, and, you know, um,

on down the line, and everything

keeps evolving.

And that's healthy.

But that doesn't mean we have to turn our back on our history either, so it is.

I mean, it is, it is a.

It is a line we walk because some

of our traditions are what make us different than every other sport in the world and

and what make us cool.

Um, I feel like Knowles,

I can't let you go without asking a tough question.

Sorry, um, leave it to me.

But, um,

The question would be why some rodeos

are allowed.

Ground rules that go against the

PRCA rule book.

That, And, and,

I know it, it aggravates people, you

know, they want, you know, they want every football field to be the

same size, every arena, but unfortunately for us,

there's, there's rodeos and different areas

of the world where we have to be a little different tie

down roping rules or a little, in,

in my humble opinion, and this is going to make some people laugh.

Um, You know, you got rodeos that

are adding $2000000 or whatever, the

Houston, the Calgary.

I mean, I think maybe you are should be considered

for a few different little rules.

We can't treat everybody.

We'd like to, but we just can't.

you know in today's world.

Well, let me let me refine that because I think the

way you put it, probably, let

me help refine this a little bit.

I think Kendra and I talked about this before.

It's not fair, nor

is it practical.

To think that a rodeo in Houston.

And a rodeo in Shimbug,

Logan, Louisiana.

Have the same set of problems,

circumstances, environment, they

can't, they if you force them to all to live

in a box, then they'll all just grow together.

The big ones will get smaller.

The smaller ones will get a little bit bigger if you force

everybody into the box, which is why you guys took a

small step in creating another category for rodeos.

But the truth is, there is now, and Kendra and I talked about this.

There, there should be a huge

rodeo category, like whatever you want to call it.

Like, these are above way above everything

else, and you can't, those rodeos

and include some of the rodeos on the west coast, they can't live in the same

rules, Kendra.

It's just not feasible.

Now, we're trying to force it.

But it is damning.

It's not good for our sport.

I think one thing that gets interesting for me.

I'm, you know, into wide open conversations and

and, if your idea is better than mine.

Awesome.

Like we all need to keep talking.

And I think part of the trick about all

of us having this wide open conversation is that

it's not always best for the sport for

us to have these wide open conversations publicly.

Do you see my point?

I agree.

Um, So, you know, that's where

it gets a little bit tricky.

Because part of me, fundamental, you know, on basic principle

is like, well, the rules apply to everybody.

There may, you may explain to me, hey, this,

this will not fly here and here's why.

But then it gets tricky for me like,

man, we're, you know.

Are we keeping a secret and that's dangerous?

You're right.

You know, different states have different speed limits.

You know, so we're not all the same driving, but

when we do do this, let's say a Houston, Calgary.

Who reached the benefits as a membership?

You know, we do this for the membership.

We want this money in our members' pockets.

We want it to count.

Um, you know, some of them rodeos are big

enough to do their own thing as you know.

We want to be their partner.

We don't want to lose one rodeo.

I'm I'm greedy.

I want every rodeo under the PRCA umbrella if we can get.

For for those who are who then I

can hear the peanut gallery saying, oh, well, they're

just giving in because is it still 6% that

goes to the PRCA off the top?

Uh, no, on those $1000000 rodeo there's a flat fee.

It's cat.

There's a flat fee.

Okay, but for people who want to come at you and say, you're just

letting them slide because they give the PRC so much money, what do you say to them?

Yes, their money, you know, we and we have made

a lot of money here in the last 5 years here.

Um, you know, it's give us a lot.

We give it back.

Like, it's, we don't get to take it home.

You know, it's it's the members money.

You know, we recycle it and it goes back out in their pockets some.

Every bit, every bit of that money does, but what it does it cost to run the office.

Um, we've had a very good run here lately.

And we are, you know, we remember COVID.

So we do want to have a little money stockpile.

For the COVID.

area, whatever the next COVID is, you know, we want

to be able to put on the NFR without bar all at

a dime as to PRC.

That's our goal to have that kind of money, you know, in reserve.

But Kendra, if you were the commissioner, if you took,

if you look at this, I have a question for you.

The PR the Houston, Houston.

Doesn't have to have the PRCA.

To still have great cowboys.

And you're sitting as the boss of the PRC in

Houston comes to you and says, We want to be a PRC rodeo.

But you have to do this or this, or

we just won't be a PRCA rodeo and all of your guys are going

to come compete.

I mean.

What you just explained to people is very helpful though, because

the questions I ask usually come from the

cowboy parking lot, okay?

And to answer those questions publicly

and openly and honestly is very helpful to a lot of people.

Just say.

I made it, you know, I made it clear.

I'm probably not going to make everybody happy with my answers, but let

me just clarify on Houston, Tommy Joe.

They actually go by every PR team.

And I'm not.

I'm actually not.

I'm not, my point was,

any rodeo of that size, when

you have 1000000s of dollars of prize money,

If the from the contestant standpoint, they need to go.

They need to go.

And I want it to be under our umbrella.

You know, and if we make money off of, that's great, Kendra.

going to end up back in the member's pocket.

Well, and also, and there used to be a statistic that,

that, Back on a former CFO.

He used to throw out the statistic.

I don't know what it is today that 88 of

every dollar that came in the door went back out to the members.

I, I, I think that you're pretty close and I don't know that number

for a fact, but that's, you're close.

You're close.

People know what we're like.

And and and also for people who who don't really think through

all of this, like we do all the time, is there's

also a huge incentive for these huge rodeos to

to want to be Pierce 8 and to have a

big impact on the NFR conversation and who makes it, right?

That's a big incentive for them.

That I think that's the whole bait is the

NFR for all these committees.

And and we're we're fortunate enough.

Uh, to have that on our side, that NFR,

you know, what a wonderful thing to have.

Well, that's what that's what the PRCA's

had, that has been the demise of every other competing entity.

historically.

They lose because they don't have the NFR.

They have good ideas and sometimes they have money.

But they don't have the NFR, and they lose

because you always, the best are always

carrying a PRCA card.

Like that's the truth.

They might be doing other things, but if you're if you're

a PRCA rodeo, the very best in the world have

the opportunity to compete at your rodeo.

And that's a big deal.

That's a big deal.

Knowles, are you going to pack up and move to Cheyenne?

Um, I don't know.

I'm committed to get the office there.

I am committed to get get us moved.

You know, it's only too little over 2 years away.

And I always wanted to go south.

I never dreamed of heading north from here.

But it's only 3 hours.

It's not very far, so.

I'm committed to getting the office there.

I think it's a good move for all the Naysayers out.

It's a fantastic, smart.

Well calculated, well done

move, everybody who says otherwise just

doesn't.

Why do you say that?

Me?

Explain yourself.

Yeah, just curious.

Financial, I don't know.

Financially, the the agreement, the way it was, right?

You're able to take the property that they have in Colorado Springs,

reinvest that in the Hall of Fame and other things that need

that money to survive, go to a brand new place

with facilities and ground on the corner

of 2 major interstates in a rodeo

welcoming state, right?

And build this out the way you dream to build it.

And oh, by the way, well, what about the people, the Hall of

Fame at Colorado Springs?

Let me tell you something.

More people will walk in front of the Hall of Fame during the Cheyenne frontier

days than they ever do at Colorado Springs.

So all of these people that I see that are seeing,

uh, uh, well, now this is not good for some of the employees

that want to live in Colorado Springs, but Colorado Springs

is crunchy.

It's crunchy.

It's Karen.

Wyoming's not.

I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't do the deal unless

it was financially backwards, Kendra, and it's financially

a windfall for the membership of the PRCA.

It's just, it's, it's, to me, nobody's

convinced me that this is not a no-brainer.

And they hand us a deed.

To the point be in the building when we move in.

It's just, we're committed to creating jobs there.

I think it's great.

You know, and I think five, 10 years from now, it'll be old news.

And you know, nobody, nobody put Bernard on the,

the guillotine block when he went from.

I remember when we were in the springs at the tiny little office in

Tihan, up at the top, and Pueblo offered

to build them out a really nice cool thing, and Pueblo's

not near as cool as Colorado Springs, frankly,

in my opinion, and everybody went down there and

I didn't see Bernard getting strung up.

Well, maybe he did.

And they moved again, I think.

Now they're in Fort Worth, aren't they?

Fort Worth, Texas.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, this has been Steve, thank you for joining us.

It's refreshing.

For you, you know, I wish that

the PRCA would have you and you guys, here's to Kinder's point.

The open communication would

be of such value to the PRCA, the

transparency and an effort to make sure that happens,

because I know you guys have your head down and you're

working into Kendra's point.

If there was a little more communication,

because I don't know that there's a lack of transparency, I think there's a lack of effort.

To communicate.

to the world that wants to know why you

guys are doing the darn things you're doing up there.

I agree.

We, we, we need to get better at communication, even

in internally.

We are not really good communicators.

We live in our silos.

Sometimes somebody, somebody tells me their side of the story and I'm like,

Wow, great idea.

I never would have thought of that, you know?

Well, we want to thank all of you listeners.

Thank you so much for coming.

I'm going to throw it up.

If you want feedback.

If you have questions, concerns, you want us to find out from Knowles.

He will occasionally answer our texts.

You can text us at 817-668-2395

or you can email us at nospin feedback

at gmail.com.

If you didn't get that.

Just do me a favor and rewind because I don't want to say it again.

Hey, episode 110, no spin rodeo.

Thank you, Mr. Knowles.

Thank you to the wonderful Kendra Santos, one

of my good friends and a friend to the rodeo industry.

Until we meet again.

Y'all be safe.

Don't take anything for granted.

Um,

Life is a gift.

It's not, it's not as bad as you think it is.

Things are better than you think they are.

God bless all of you.

will see you next time.

This has been no spin road.