Uncover the hard-hitting spiritual dilemma of "Combining Faith and Works" as we delve into the toughest question of Christianity: where is God in suffering? 

Today's special guest, Ed Walker shares valuable insights from his time working in war zones to helping homeless people find loving and caring homes in this inspiring episode of What's The Story.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

• How Ed's experience overseas in disaster response and meeting a homeless man in a park led him to start Hope into Action, a movement that partners with churches to provide homes for the homeless, with the aim of reducing re-offending rates. Over 100 churches now run more than 100 houses, making a positive impact in the lives of homeless individuals.
• Ed discusses his experience working in war zones and the challenge of reconciling the suffering he witnessed with his understanding of God's love. He found that the Bible and books by Philip Yancey gave him the resilience he needed, strengthening his faith.
• Writing his book, "Reflections from the Scorched Earth," helped Ed process and make sense of his experiences working in war zones and dealing with suffering. He found that accepting the irreconcilable nature of certain situations and holding onto blind faith and submission to God was a source of strength and comfort for him.
• Sacrifice and denying oneself are important ingredients in the walk of Christians, although sacrifice is not talked about as much in the church these days, possibly because of the commodification of church. Nevertheless, sacrificing for God is healthy and important in the context of deep spiritual understanding and gratitude.
• Ed's one message would be to have a deep understanding of the gospel where different aspects such as poverty, justice, peace, proclamation, salvation and redemption are all interwoven in our understanding, and to preach good news to all of creation, not just the human race.

ABOUT ED:

Ed Walker is a seasoned humanitarian with over 10 years of experience in relief and development. He's worked in war zones and disaster-stricken areas across Africa, reaching over 100,000 people affected by conflict and chairing the NGO Steering Committee. Ed is also an accomplished author, having written 'Reflections from the Scorched Earth', a book that sold over 5000 copies.

Back in the UK, Ed served as Director of YMCA Client Services before founding the charity Hope into Action. Their mission is to house vulnerable individuals with the help of local churches. Today, Hope into Action has over 100 homes in 20 towns across England and has won several awards, including the Best Christian Social Action Award in 2015 and The Guardian's 'Best Housing Project in the Country' in 2017. Ed's latest book 'A House Built on Love' was published in October 2020, and in June 2022, he was awarded an MBE for his services to homelessness. Ed is a proud husband and father to two daughters and a son.

biggest issue, was a deep challenge to your understanding of God is love,

which is something that everyone has to face, really in their Christian

faith, that our hardest question is where is the God in suffering?

Welcome to what's the story?

My name is Matt Edmundson, and this is a podcast full of stories about

faith and courage from everyday people.

And today I'm chatting with Ed Walker about his Christian journey, challenges

he's faced in life, and some of the lessons he's learned on the way.

But before I get into that, let me give a shout out to a couple of episodes

that you should also check out.

Check out the podcast I did with Jenny Oliver called When

Life Spirals Out of Control.

Jenny was a great guest on the What's the Story podcast as was Dave Conn.

Uh, you can see, uh, and hear his episode actually, it's called God Get Me Out of

This and I'll Do Anything, a prayer we have all prayed at various points in time.

Now you can find these and our entire archive of episodes on our website

for free at www.crowd.church or you can go to whatsthestorypodcast.com.

They take you to the same place and whilst you're there, sign up for our newsletter.

And each week we will email you these links along with the notes, uh, and

links from today's conversation with Ed.

They get directly sent to your inbox, which is amazing.

Now this episode is brought to you by Crowd Online Church.

You know as well as I do that not everybody wants to go to church

and not everybody can get into a church building, and this is where

online Church works super well.

It is a safe space to explore the Christian faith.

And the thing that I love about Crowd Church is that you get to

join in and shape the conversation.

As they don't just talk at you.

No, no, no.

You get to join in.

So if you've never been to church before or if you are looking for a

new church, check out Crowd Church.

The website is www.crowd.church.

Now before we get into the conversation, I do want to give a shout out to Simon

Guillebaud, who introduced me to Ed.

Uh, Simon, if you may or may not remember, if you, if you're a regular to the podcast

from Great Lake Outreach, did an episode called How Gratitude Changes Everything.

So Ed not being funny.

But these are big shoulders upon which you stand.

Uh, so let's talk about Ed.

Ed Walker is a seasoned humanitarian with over 10 years experience

in relief and development.

He's worked in war zones and disaster stricken areas across Africa, reaching

over a hundred thousand people affected by conflict, uh, and he

chairs the NGO steering committees.

Ed also is an accomplished author having written the incredible book,

Reflections from the Scorched Earth that have sold over 5,000 copies.

Back in the UK, Ed has served as the director of YMCA client services before

founding the charity hope into action.

Their mission is to house vulnerable individuals with

the help of local churches.

Today Hope Into Action has over 80 homes in 20 towns across England and

has won several awards, including the Best Christian Social Action Award in

2015, and the Guardian's Best Housing Project in the country, no doubt in 2017.

Ed's latest book, A House Built on Love, was published in October, 2020,

and in June, 2022, he was awarded an MBE for his services to the homeless.

Ed is a proud husband and father of two daughters and a son.

Oh, yes.

Uh, that's a heck of an intro.

Welcome to the show, man.

Great to have you.

Uh, thank you very much.

It's a real honor to be here.

Really appreciate it.

Oh no, it's great.

And if you are watching on YouTube, uh, Ed, one of the things I noticed straight

away, and we may as well tell people straight away, uh, if they can see it,

what is that behind you on the wall?

That Well, that's, uh, yeah, that's an Ethiopian throw that a friend gave

us as we left Khartoum after three and a half years of serving the program.

Um, yeah, where I went out there married and came back with, uh,

one baby and one in the oven.

So, uh, it was great three and a half years of our life.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

And have you got these sort of knickknacks, I dunno, there's probably

a better phrase than knickknacks, but Do you know what I mean?

These sort of, these trinkets all over the house from Africa?

Uh, this room is our kind of Africa honoring house and there's one other

corridor where I've got random sort of crosses and sticks that have

been given to me, by hope you know and trowels and things like that.

Just like, uh, yeah.

So, um, yeah, two, two main spaces.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

So, Ed, for those people that don't know, tell us about hope

into action and what it does.

Yeah, well hope into action.

I mean, the way I sometimes explain it is, you know, I'd, I'd spent that 10 years, as

you said, overseas in disaster response.

My favorite verse, my, my powerful verse that spoke to be

time and again was Isaiah 58.

Isn't this the kind of fasting I've chosen?

To loose the change of injustice, to set the oppressed free.

And then I landed, I kind of, we left that world.

I, I landed in a place called Peterborough in East England

and I found myself completely feeling like a fish out of water.

How do those verses apply to Christians in Peterborough?

And I kept saying to God, look, I know you need Christians in this city, but

exactly to do what I don't understand.

And then one day, just actually Rachel just given birth to, I was

on paternity leave, playing with my first daughter in the park and

met a guy on the bench as you do.

Uh, his story was a really familiar story.

It happened hundreds of times every month in this country, actually.

Uh, but I'd read about it but never met it.

And I asked him his story.

He said, well, I was in prison this morning.

I left at the point and I was leaving.

I was full of determination and hope and wanted a get fresh start.

But as I was going out of the gate, a prison officer said, We'll see

you back here in three months time.

At that point, any sense of self-esteem crumbled.

And by the time I met him, 11:00 AM he'd got, he spent his discharge money, 47 quid

on the bottom of something very strong and was halfway through it and, uh, I

said to him, well, don't let you know.

Don't worry, I can help.

I know the house lords in this town.

Uh, none were taking too old or don't take Ex-offenders.

So I said, what about Norwich?

Same deal.

What about Cambridge?

Same deal.

I said, where were you before you went into prison?

He said, I was in Cambridge.

So I said, uh, well, why don't you go back to Cambridge?

He said, if I do, I'll be surrounded by the same old people doing the same old

things, and I will end up back inside.

So he'd actually made a rational choice.

He'd spent his money or his only friend, and as I left him there and

to now answer your question really.

Um, I found myself feeling two things, one, very disempowered.

Two, um, a real passion or an anger, I suppose that there are what, 20, 30

churches in this city and not one of them was giving a homeless a home and it.

obviously if you give that guy home, his chance of re-offending would drop.

Uh, I'd read the statistics.

I'd now read it in a story.

And from that moment on, really, I came back and, uh, Rachel was concerned

with our second newborn, but I was, I was talking to her about this and

we began talking and thinking and praying and eventually we said, well,

look, uh, the church can't run a hostel for 20 people, but they can

run a home for one or two people.

we bought our first home.

We partnered it with our church, Breton Baptist Church.

They agreed to try and love and support the tenants.

I went into the prison, met someone who I'd known had got released, met

him at the gate, took him to the house and hope into action was begun.

And uh, yeah, that's where it started really.

And it's grown from there.

A really broad range of, uh, homelessness.

Actually.

It's, it's more than you said.

It's now over a hundred churches, uh, running more

than a hundred, um, houses, so.

Wow.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really really good.

Wow.

So meeting this guy in the park then sort of changed your trajectory a little bit?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, at that time I was, uh, praying, well, I have a nice

career at the YMCA or may I get promotion there a bit more money.

And of course had to sort of jump off that thing.

I had fair bit responsibilities, a hundred odd staff, 200 odd

tenants, clients underneath me.

Really wanted to form a kind of outreach that would release the

oppressed in a really intelligent way, but also never lose a spiritual edge.

So we can always mirror Jesus's, you know, his own job description from

John four, uh, sorry, Luke four.

Um, the spirit of anointed Lord is upon me to release the oppressed, to set the

captives free and proclaim the good news.

And so many organizations in this country started off doing both and

slowly lost the proclamation inside.

Well, we want to always keep that.

And if you always open a house in partnership with a church, then

you'll always have spiritual inputs and then you'll have the churches.

We're actually discipling churches cuz churches are engaging in the lives of

the most vulnerable in their community.

They know about it, they know they should be doing that, and we are

giving them a really good way in.

A way that they grow because they meet Christ in the vulnerable cuz,

which shouldn't surprise us because Jesus said he was gonna meet us there.

So he identified with those who have nowhere to rest their heads

and he wants us to meet him there.

Our church has become richer when they meet with the poor and that's,

that's part of our mission as well as helping those who are homeless on

their journey out of homelessness.

Mm-hmm..

So have you found then that this partnership with.

with churches work super well.

Uh, is is it or is it, I I, I'm sort of answering the own question

in my, in my head as I ask it, Ed, is, I'm assuming it's a little bit

more complicated than that, but, but on the whole, does it work well?

Yeah, I think what it's a realsay is, In the landscape.

If you're, if you're someone who is experiencing homelessness, what in your

landscape, what provision have you got?

You might have, uh, someone might give you some food.

Someone else might give you a sleeping bag.

Someone may give you a tent even.

Someone may give you their a night shelter.

Someone may give you a hostel.

What the church can do.

What now a hundred churches can do is give you a home.

And that's really significant because actually we give someone real

dignity when we give them a home.

What is a home?

It's the same home you want for your children as I want for my children.

A solid building that's similar to my neighbors, so I've got

dignity when I walk out of it.

I'm not sort of stigmatized cause I live in on third floor or a hostel.

I've got a bedroom, I've got a bathroom, I've got a kitchen, I've

got a lounge, I've got a garden.

And we are saying, we really trust you.

We think you're good enough for this house, Jesus thinks you're Worth here,

we're gonna show it to you by offering you a key and trusting you, not with sort

of 24 hour staff or anything like that.

Um, so that's one part of the model.

And the other part, the, what else is a home?

It's relationships, it's nurture, it's love, it's boundaries.

And lots of organizations sort of will do the floating support or offer

you a bed or something like that.

What we do is give you a home, and part of that home is local connections, people,

positive role models that are there to support you and journey with you.

Because if, when you come outta prison, uh, the people that meet you are gonna

be people pushing drugs towards you.

And if we can replace those relationships with positive ones from the local

church, then you stand a much better chance of recovering from homelessness.

Mm-hmm.

It's a long journey out of homelessness for the vast majority of people

and relationships are key to that.

It's a relational, if you think about that guy on the bench, he had nowhere

to go because he had no one to go to.

So at the heart of his physical poverty, his homelessness was a relational poverty.

And the church is rich in relationships so, It's a very

effective model when it works well.

Of course all churches are different and not everyone's perfect and we're

not perfect and all that stuff.

But essentially at the core of a model, when it works really

well, it's a great project.

Oh, fun.

And so do you, going back to the statement then you made earlier about, you know, you

were asking God about the, the Isaiah 58.

Uh, is this not the fast I've chosen, do you now see the outworking

of that in, in hope into action?

Is that being actioned in Peterborough as it was um, back in Africa?

Yeah, I really feel it because it's not this kind of person chosen dot, dot, dot

to provide the poor wanderer with shelter.

Mm-hmm.

and I met the Poor Wanderer, um, and it's released every yoke.

That's what Isaiah 58 says.

So if you are homeless, someone may come to you and say, well, you need some food.

I can give you some food.

Someone may come to you and say, you need some drug help.

I'll give you that.

Someone you need some debt help or you need some probation

help, I'll give you those.

What we say is actually come into our home and we can release every yoke that

oppresses you as according to Isaiah 58.

Um, and also so an evangelist may come along to in the

street and say, you need Jesus.

Well, we can do that as well, but it's.

It's holistic, it's all those things collectively oppress you.

You may be able to deal with your bad debt if you didn't have an addiction.

You may be able to deal with your addiction.

If you didn't have joblessness, you maybe.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Actually, all these things oppress you.

And Isaiah 58 says every yoke.

So that's what oppresses the poor wanderer.

And if we can break all of those things, which takes time and is slow,

um, then we can enable people to flourish into what God wants 'em to be.

Wow.

Fantastic.

So yeah, I've really connected now with Isaiah 58.

Hmm.

No, that's fascinating.

So have you, have you always had this sort of heart for, uh,

the poor and the outcast then?

Um, or is this something that evolved in you, in, in, in your Christian journey?

No, I'd say I've always had it.

I think, um, you know, I, I was born into a Christian family.

It's always a part of the faith that resonated with me Most.

I can remember at age 13, I said, don't give me any presents for my party.

Give some money to Tier Fund.

I then ended up working for Tier Fund and I think Tier Fund really gave it

shaped that in me and it gave it a voice and it gave it sort of, Depth

and sort of biblical depth, you know?

I've got to understand prophets a lot more.

but I think it was always in me and I would see justice,

poverty, spiritual oppression, all wrapped it interlinked, really.

And so the gospel for me is more than just saying a Prayer, it's,

releasing those systems which oppress people, as well as spiritual growth.

And yeah, if you can alleviate the poverty, the spiritual poverty,

the physical poverty, the systemic poverty, then that, that would

be a fuller understanding of the gospel, which I wouldn't have been

able to articulate 25 years ago, but it was sort of already in me.

I suppose.

Yeah, no, fair enough.

So you spent 10 years working in war zones and disaster areas in Africa.

Um, I guess one of my questions is that where you met Simon, who we gave

a shout out to at the start of the show, um, and what were some of the

most sort of challenges, challenging experiences you faced during that time?

Uh, yeah, I, my first assignment when I was 22 was I was sent out

to this country called Burundi.

Uh, at that point there was about one other, uh, expat, no, there, there are a

few more than that, but Simon was there.

He'd been there a few months.

He just had a push bike at that stage and very knobbly knees.

And we just got along very, very well.

And he, he was a very inspiring character three or four years older than me, and a

great role model for me to look up to and see someone really living out their faith.

And in that world, I met other men and women who lived out of faith

that I really could look up to and admire and hadn't yet really seen

perhaps in my Christian journey.

Um, so that, that was really helpful for me.

And across the 10 years I worked at five or six different war zones,

experienced most, manifestations of war that are out there.

Not chemical or biological warfare, but, certainly either directly

or through the staff I work with.

the biggest issue, and I can tell lots of stories, of individual

instances or suffering or death.

was a deep challenge to your understanding of God is love, which is something

that everyone has to face, really in their Christian faith, that our hardest

question is where is the God in suffering?

Um, um, you obviously relieve suffering, um, and you're doing

it in a very violent context.

What I found is two things.

The glib answers I'd learned as a Christian growing up in a kind of

evangelical church really didn't sort of cut much mustard with me.

Um, mm-hmm.

What, what I found really gave me the resilience I needed.

Was the Bible and you know, a few, few books by Philip Yancey really.

Um, and what I found in the Bible, in my, in my Christian

upbringing, the word violence has never really been talked about.

But I found violence, you know, writ large in every page of the Bible.

From Cain and Abel to, uh, the Psalms, to prophets to Jesus being killed

to the persecuted church in Acts.

It was, it was there, um, when I'd never seen it before.

And the question is written every, uh, verse of the Psalms virtually, isn't it?

Certainly virtually every Psalm.

And so that strengthened my faith, um, where I needed to, and I found

the word was really sure where perhaps my, uh, upbringing hadn't been..

Um, yeah, that, that's probably, there's probably, yeah.

But I could give you lots of examples of how that, that worked

itself, but in individual instances.

So, um, I'm interested, Ed, when you talked about, um, the standard glib

answers from your evangelical upbringing didn't really work, what do you, what in

your mind are those standard glib answers that I guess a lot of people still in.

If you've not been into war in Africa, it may be hard to sort of empathize with.

So I'm kind of curious, what were some of the glib answers that you were given that

weren't really working for you and why?

Yeah.

Well if we can contextualize it, if most of our listeners are in

the UK, if, if someone could have said to me, oh, I really struggled

cuz my mom's dying of cancer.

Why is God doing this?

What I probably wouldn't talk about is free will.

Um, and I probably would talk about, um, What I found in the Bible.

Well, first I want to listen.

I want to empathize.

I want to be, be alongside them.

And I don't think what I found in the Bible is God gives

very few answers to that.

So he never answered Job.

When Jesus would ask, why did these people die when the, the, the tower fell?

He didn't answer that either.

When, um, Uh, Gideon asked God, why have you made me suffer like that?

He didn't answer that.

Uh, they just, God either pointed to his might or he reassured

them that he was with them.

Uh, Jesus before the crucifixion, when he was dropping sweats of blood.

Again, God didn't explain to him why.

He just strengthened him with an angel.

And I think, um, that would be much more, well, first of

all, I wouldn't, I wouldn't.

Necessarily, I want to listen and empathize and show my support

through, through my friendship.

And if the questions were asked, I, I, I'd be honest about my doubts because again,

I find loads of doubts in the Bible.

Mm-hmm.

and.

I, I, it's a realencourage someone to be, take their doubts and their anger

and their pain to God, uh, rather than trying to give them some answer that's,

is cogent and concise and, you know, but perhaps lacking a bit in, in empathy.

Mm-hmm.

it's a fair point, isn't it?

Because one of the things that, um, I guess I've noticed about.

um, certainly Christians who are deconstructing their faith, which

is a very trendy term right now.

I'm going through a period of deconstruction.

Oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes the reason for the

deconstruction, I think is, is probably an, an, an unhelpful theology

around the concept of suffering.

So most people would mentally sort of, uh, you know, attune to the fact

that there is suffering in the world as, but as long as that suffering's

out there and it's not affecting me, cause as soon as it affects me and I,

I question it, I don't understand it.

Therefore, I dunno how to process this.

So the only thing that I now know how to do is to deconstruct my faith.

I see that.

I dunno if you see that, but this is one of the things I see a lot.

Um, and it, it's interesting listening to you talk about this because.

Um, you, you wrote the book sort of reflections from the scorched earth, which

were obviously based on your experiences working in war zones and dealing with

this sort of violence and suffering.

So how did writing this book help you process, um, and make sense of

these experiences, these sufferings and I guess, in other words, why did

you not deconstruct your faith when it was all kicking off around you?

What, how did it strengthen your faith?

Yeah.

I think it, what, what I've described as a process of deconstruction

and, uh, restructure I suppose, which is sort of, you know, all,

all intermingled with each other.

Um, yeah.

So I think.

, perhaps what I was the two things.

Why'd you write the book?

One, I think writing for some, and, and it's a realagree with this, it's, it's a

way of getting what is inside out and it's way of finding what's going on inside you.

Mm-hmm.

um, I had loads of time because I was stuck in a hut or a tent.

So A read, uh, B, read my Bible or C write, and the three

were sort of intermingled.

Mm-hmm.

. And when your only form of communication is a floppy disk and an HF radio, How

else you gonna communicate, you know?

So I think all those things sort of played into one another and I

think, you know, terrible suffering tends to, tends to force writing.

You know, a lot of the best poetry comes from World War I.

Yeah.

And similar sort of, Emotional reaction for some, and I was the same.

I had an instinct to write, to try and work it out, to explore my faith

and to share what I was discovering.

You know, Habbakuk says, you know, even though there's no fruit on the

trees, yet I will praise the Lord.

That is a much more helpful thing for me than someone about free will.

And so when you go into that verse and you meditate on it, somehow

you do find God strengthens you.

And there, you know, God is my refuge and my strength that is

written virtually every Psalm.

And isn't it, it comes up and again and again.

And if that's what you, if that's your source of strength, if you are, if you

find God's strengthening in his word, then I find that's what keeps you going.

Um, and it's a real honest faith.

It's a real honest relationship with God.

It's, it's not, and yeah, so I dunno if that's answered your

question, but that was very much how it all came about, I suppose.

Um, yeah.

And I tell stories in there, you know, when you nurse a child to death or when

you watch them and then mother dies a bit later and, you know, all that sort

of stuff, uh, how, you know, taking the communion and just had a call that

someone's been shot in the backside and, you know, how do you, how do you

reconcile those two things, you know?

It's, it's, it's just hard to do.

So that's really how I sort of brought it out and brought it live through the book.

That's fascinating.

So how, I guess then the question, how, if I can jump to the end of the

book, how did you reconcile this idea of God is good faced with the nurse

and the infant child, the mother dying, someone getting shot in the backside?

Well, yeah, in, in some ways, It's about accepting that some of these

things are irreconcilable on this earth.

Yeah.

You know, and get faith is is that, isn't it?

It's, not having all the answers, but it's somehow sure of what you can't see or have

enough of a clinging onto what you can't see in the uncertainty, in the doubts and

in the, challenge and the pain of it all.

And, uh, yeah.

I take Jesus and Gethsemane.

He was just holding onto blind faith, wasn't he?

He didn't, and God strengthened him somehow mysteriously, through that angel.

And the, if you asked him at that point, you know, what's

your theology of suffering?

I dunno what he would've said.

It was, it was a Prayer of submission.

Yeah.

And faith is a submission, isn't it?

I trust that you're God, therefore, I submit.

I don't have the answers.

I'd much rather not walk through this path right now.

Um, so I dunno if that's answered your question, but in a sense,

I didn't really come to a cogent answer and that's the point.

Yeah.

I just became full load of explorations.

Uh, and verses where I found God people, people did ask God

and God didn't really answer.

And verses from the Bible, some of which I've quoted, that for me

personally helped me in a genuine way.

Mm.

. No.

Fair enough.

Fair.

And so you obviously saw immense suffering, uh, and I, I guess still doing

a lot of ways with hope into action.

You know, you, you, what are some of the, the stories of, of

life of transformation though?

Or, or, uh, was it all, was it all suffering or was there some

something that came out of it?

Oh, well, human spirit is indomitable, isn't it?

You know?

Mm-hmm.

, uh, I mean, so the people both overseas and here, your inspiration comes as much

from, you know, that, that guard that's working on nothing and you wake up at

six in the morning, there he is hovering over a light reading his Bible or the,

the colleagues who you make friends with cross-culturally, and their faith

is so true in a way mine never will be.

And same with our tenants now that our men and women who've experienced homelessness

now, , uh, you know, their stories carry such power and it's such vulnerability

and there's such honesty in them as well.

You know, I, I can always remember meeting a lady who, who worked as a prostitute.

She was in a prison cell, and, you know, there is so much, uh, tragedy

in her life, just overwhelming when you come outta that thing.

And I, I didn't have to, you know, that gave me the energy to

work for three months afterwards.

You know, I just worked so hard and if you like, what's happened there

is Jesus said, you know, when, when you visited me in prison, there am I.

Mm.

It was Jesus's spirit spoke to me through that lady and gives you the

strength and the power to punch it out and motivation to go hard at

whatever the task is ahead of you and whatever the challenge is ahead of you.

Um, so.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that, that's always the most encouraging thing.

Um, yeah, the indomitable spirit of people in suffering

is really inspiring, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

And I, I mean, I, there are a couple of people that I, you know, that I've

mentioned in the past who for me, are the most inspiring people that I know.

And it's not because of necessarily what they've achieved, it's because of

what they've gone through and they still remain, just the sweetest, loveliest

Christian people you could ever hope to meet, you know, just full of grace

and you just go, well, that, that's properly inspiring cuz I've not lived

through what they've lived through.

Um, and you kind of go, geez, uh, it is, I don't, did, I guess what is it?

I, I find myself, uh, Ed quite often comparing my life

with somebody else's life.

It's just one of those things that just happens in my head.

Um, and it's not so much I compare my life with people who are perceived,

who I perceive more successful than me.

I often compare my life with people who I think haven't got a whole great deal.

And, and in my head I'm like, so therefore, Mr.

Matthew, you need to you know, perhaps change how you think or

change how you pray in this situation.

Because actually when you, when you look at that, really, what

have I got to complain about?

Now, obviously there are some genuine complaints, but, um, but

I find myself doing that a lot.

And I'm curious, did you, how did you respond to that when you are out there

or when you are with hope into action and you are working with people who

clearly don't have, you know, a, a room in the house with an Ethiopian sort of

flag or, or, uh, bedspread on the wall?

Yeah.

Do you, do you often compare yourself and, and there's, or do you, have

you sort of, is that something you deliberately don't do I guess?

No, absolutely.

I compare both up and down and feeling inadequate both ways, you know, like,

but I absolutely get your point.

I think so often it's a reallook at, if you go back to overseas in

Africa, or I can remember just seeing the people I'm working with, and

we all know intellectually that, you know, we're all created equal.

When you feel it in the core of your being across a culture divide, even

across linguistic divides and you see.

Yeah.

If you were, you could be my mother, my brother, my sister.

It's such a powerful emotion.

I mean, if I, if I'd mentioned Hewitt, who was an Eritrean refugee with no

recourse any, uh, support in Khartoum.

She was our cleaner and maid and looked after our daughter and we

would go round to her hut, which was, um, no bigger than this room here.

You can't see it.

Just one room, which was a corridor and a kitchen and dining room.

The other room was a room for them and their children.

and she was one of the most mature, intelligent people you would ever meet.

And you're like, she just oozed this wisdom and intelligence and maturity.

And, uh, Rachel and I were delighted to leave our daughter with her as a carer.

And you just know that the there is.

So you just know that if they were given my upbringing, she'd be

doing so much more than I would.

And that, in a funny way is your drive.

That is where your drive, and that's compassion, that's empathy.

And that's, that is your connectedness that drives you forward.

Uh, you know, none of us are having to solve the world's problems.

Barack Obama couldn't manage it with all his power what would I or you?

Yeah.

But we can, you know, without being cheesy, we can, we can do our bits

and, um, it's great privilege.

I think when you can see, meet people across a cultural divide and

connect as your fellow human being.

And that's the same in this country as well.

And you were like, by God, if you had my birth rights, you would be doing

something so much more than I am now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting isn't it?

And I, um, because I've heard people in the past say things like that, well, you

know, if you think about there's people in the world that have it worse off than you.

And that's almost not giving people a license to sort of go through

necessarily the emotions that they're going through at the time, you know?

Um, and so people have, have sort of shied away from using that

as a, as a statement these days.

Um, but actually I, I think there's a balance to it, isn't there?

And, and I'm not telling people not to sort of think about the emotions

that they're going through, but there is actually if this statement, which

says, actually, if I compared myself to

probably about 98% of the world's populations, life's okay.

You know, and it's, it's, um, it's not a bad thing to sort of

put it into some kind of context.

So, Ed, over the years that you've been doing this, I'm kind of curious, right?

You've, you've been given an MBE, which is awesome, and my initials, by the way, MBE.

Uh, and let's not go there, um, so people have recognized, you know, the work that

you've done and, and no doubt there's a team behind the success and all that sort

of, you know, all that sort of stuff.

. But if you could go back 15, 20 years, you know, to that, that young

man just about to set off to Africa before he meets Simon, what advice

would you have given yourself?

Yeah, I mean, uh, well, when I first went out I thought I was going

out for three months, maybe six months, and then that would be it.

So, I was glad that no one ever said to me, you might to stay out longer.

, um, I, I just think I'd say lean in.

Just lean into it.

Um, embrace it and go for it.

Uh, I think it's true as a, you know, I, I think there's a lot to be said.

You don't hear this word so much in Christian circles, but I think

sacrifice is important and, you know, When you give, then you receive.

Uh, trust in that because, uh, at times we can also, we've chosen

different parts and have more money and better this and better that.

But I, I do believe that an element of sacrifice, an element of denying

yourself is important ingredient in our walk as Christians and not what I

hear spoken about so much these days.

Um, but you know, that's when you receive, that's the blessing comes from that.

And so, yeah, I think there's still a really important case

for, for, for that argument.

Um, uh, yeah.

So the, it's interesting the word sacrifice, cuz you're right, I

don't think we talk about it a lot.

The sacrifice of praise, the sacrifice of giving, you know, the sacrifice

of denying yourself, taking up your cross and all that sort of thing.

Why do you think we don't talk about it so much in church these days?

Yeah, I just, I don't know.

May, maybe it is, we're just, we are trying to.

We're trying to sell faith.

This will help you through your mental problems, faith.

Whereas I think people actually respond to authentic faith.

I think sacrifice is, I don't know why fully, but when you commoditize church,

when church is something you consume on a Sunday and you're trying to make

the message something that people will like and consume, ironically, yeah.

I think it probably doesn't work.

I think.

people are inspired, but by authentic faith and I think in the

right context, in the right way.

Uh, not every week.

So it's a sort of, um, Oppression.

You must sacrifice more.

That, that, that's unhealthy, isn't it?

But, uh, willingness, you know, for in the light of God's mercies, Romans

12, when you just consider your thumb in the light of God's mercies, give up

your whole body as a living sacrifice.

Do you know what I mean?

So it starts from a point, as you say, from a point of gratitude, of deep

spiritual understanding, all God's done for us, then what is it if I give up my,

my myself as a, as a living sacrifice?

Um, I think that's healthy and I think that's healthy spirituality, uh, uh, not

in, in, you know, in, in a broader context of spiritual, uh, disciplines and truths.

Yeah, yeah.

No, very, very true.

And I'm just out here thinking, actually you, you know, I, it felt

for a while that the church became the equivalent of a self-help sort

of message Do you know what I mean?

Every me I, you couldn't distinguish a church sermon

from a sort of self-help sermon.

Uh, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Um, and actually the stuff that you've just been talking about, about the

sacrifice, about, whilst you don't talk about it every Sunday, it is

should, it should be one of those things which distinguishes a Christian

faith because, you know, Tony Robbins doesn't necessarily talk about that

on stage at Lee, I don't think.

I've never been, to be fair, I'm, but Do you know what I mean?

It's that kind of, um, that kind of thing, isn't it?

So, yeah.

Very good.

Super powerful.

So I guess if you look back over the time, are there any, any, any regrets in

anything or anything that you'd like to change perhaps, uh, over what's been done?

Well, I think, you know, regret, contrition, uh, confession,

uh, you know, I don't quite know what the line is there..

That's your next book maybe.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I think that has to be part of our, again, part of our

spiritual journeys every week, every month, every day, doesn't it?

So, um, Yeah, my major life decisions, um, I don't regret.

Mm-hmm.

In terms of, you know, that first decision to, to, to serve with tier

fund, then come back when we did, and then, and then start hope into action.

Uh, but within that there's no end of doubts.

And, and within that, there's no end of mistakes you've made.

And the hardest things is where, you know, that's also in a

leadership position where you've.

Um, hurt people.

And then when you, you know, um, I think it's really hard when

you're in leadership, isn't it?

Because Jesus rebuked people and that presumably hurt them.

Mm-hmm.

and sometimes as a scenario, I, I, I've perhaps caused

hurt uh, in an unhelpful way.

Mm-hmm, and I think with the responsibility of leadership does come

that sometimes, and sometimes you've had to grasp a situation and done it badly.

Um, sometimes you've felt you've had to grasp a situation.

You've got that wrong.

Sometimes even you've got it right, but you've hurt people and that's horrible.

Um, so I think those are perhaps some of the more.

Well, yeah, I dunno if regrets the right word, but some of the

harder elements of the role.

Mm-hmm.

Um, for sure you've made decisions.

I mean, every security, when you're in responsible for staff, every security

instance where something bad happened, you could have stopped it cuz they

were always in, but you wouldn't be in that context if you, you know,

you halted operations every time.

So you've had to really self-recrimination in those situations and in

situations open to action where times of things have gone wrong.

You have to work through self-recrimination and go, yeah, I

may have done, yeah, I could have done better, but I'm still held by God.

And that doesn't make me a bad, it doesn't mean I shouldn't continue.

It doesn't mean I got it wrong and so on.

Uh, so you've got to, you've gotta face into that, those mistakes and

the cost of those mistakes, I think.

Mm-hmm.

what's the answer?

Don't feel I've really answered your question, but in, in

short, lots of regrets..

Yeah, no, fair enough.

That's a very good answer.

Um, so what does the future hold?

What's the next sort of three, five years look like, do you think?

Where's, where's God taking all of this?

Yeah, it's a really good question.

I think there, there are lots of examples of founders that stay on too long.

Uh mm-hmm.

I think every founder and every organization they found is, is unique.

So I'm not casting judgment in any individual person here, but I

think certainly have a lockdown.

There are lots of examples from Bill Hybels to um, uh, uh, Hillsong,

perhaps even where the founder hasn't ended as well as they might.

And for me, in reflecting on that, I, I felt, well, if you genuinely trust

God, um, then he's got the organization and doesn't, I can be conned into

my own sense of indispensability.

Um, . Well, no.

Do you trust God actually with this organization that's he's,

he's founded and you've just been a partner with him on for mm-hmm.

a period of time and really wanting to model something different.

So 18 months ago I did resign to my trustees after a year of thinking about

it and discussing it with a few of them.

And, um, we've appointed John Kurt to take over for me now.

He's doing a fantastic job.

I'm so proud of him.

And handover we've done, if I'm honest with you, and I'm now an ambassador

one to two days a week for that.

And we we're just in that sort of transition phase at the moment.

Therefore, I get, I've sort of run off at the end of a cliff and don't have

any secure, uh, income or, or work.

Um, but you, you're very, very much trusting that that will come through..

Um, so I think it's, I think there are some good examples of

founders leaving really well.

I think, um, Les Isaacs is one from Essential Trust and I, I

guess I really, John and I want to be another example of that.

um, where I hand over really well.

We have a really solid relationship with me in this role.

I currently have no managerial or governance uh, responsibility.

Um, that's important that John is captain of the ship and I know I'm a

blessing to him and not a burden for him.

Um, I don't undermine him.

I support him and hopefully can add value to this movement that is hope into

action of getting churches to house a homeless, seeing that as part of their

worship, hopefully I can be released from the day-to-day worries and go

hard at, at promoting the organization.

Fantastic, fantastic.

And so, uh, adding closing, uh, question.

I'd like to ask everybody if I can, if you had just one message, right?

You got one chance.

Uh, I, every time I say this, I get this song.

You know that you only get one shot.

Do not miss a chance, uh, song in my head for some very odd reason.

Um, but you, you, you, you know, this is your last sermon, uh, in effect

your one message for whatever reason.

What would you, what would be the topic?

What's the, the overarching thing that you've learned from God over

the years that you would talk about?

Well, there's a, there's a Si Guillebaud quote that says, I'll say two things.

If God is worth anything he's worth everything.

And that's such sound logic.

If he is out there and he did create every mountain, then

he's probably worth everything.

Mm-hmm.

, um, if, you know, so I, I do like that.

And the other thing, it's a realjust really love to see a deep understanding

of the gospel where climates, poverty, justice, peace, proclamation,

salvation, redemption are all so interwoven in our understanding.

Mm-hmm.

, um, that it's, yeah.

The, the, the house that's falling down in Norfolk now is, you know, the, the,

the child that is starving because of my carbon footprint needs to know about Jesus

spiritually, needs to have food, needs the soil around his village to be redeemed.

That's all the gospel.

Um, and that to be just so well ingrained in our understanding.

You know, Jesus said, preach good news to all creation, not just the human race.

And sort of that I'm drawn to that, that that's an attractive gospel to me.

I'm drawn to coming to faith.

I set up hope into action so people would come to faith.

Um, and I'm trying to proclaim, but, but it's, it's in a

context of something wider.

Mm-hmm.

Um, no, that's great.

Do you think that, cuz as I'm listening to you talk, it, it sort of resonates with me

that that's, that is, that is tier fund.

Do you know what I mean, this is sort of almost like the mission of

Tier Fund that you are talking about.

Um, is, is, is that, have I understood that right and is that something

maybe that Tier Fund helped form in you, or is that something that

you had before you hit Tier Fund?

. Yeah, I think it was kind of in me

and shaped it and gave words to it and articulated it and developed it in me,

and yeah, I think I was drawn to Tier fund because it, it was in me and I say that is

very much that, that would be very similar to what Tier Fund would articulate.

And it, yeah, I'm still 15 years after leaving Tier Fund.

That's my answer to that question.

It still makes sense to me, you know.

It's an interconnected world in my mind, and the gospel is

interwoven into all of that.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

Listen, Ed, uh, it's been an absolute treat talking to you.

Um, I'm aware of time, I'm aware the kids are coming back from school.

Um, if people wanna find out more about you, about hope into action, uh, what's

the best way to, to go about doing that?

Yeah.

Listen, we'd love to connect with you, uh, hopeintoaction.org.uk.

Or if you wanna send me an email, ed.walker@hopeintoaction.org.uk uh,

any conversation I'd love to pick up with you, especially if you've got a

real, you've seen the homelessness.

It's going up again.

We predicted it'd go up 18 months ago.

Homelessness has gone up by third in this country in the last year, uh,

the church needs to stand to rise up.

So if that floats your boat in particular, Do get in touch

ed.walker@hopeintoaction.org.uk.

And what can people do, Ed, if, if, if maybe they have a heart, but it's

not necessarily something on their church's agenda, is it still something

that they can connect with you about?

Is that, what sort of things could they do?

There's so many ways you can connect with us.

You know, if, just, just, we'll come back to your question, but if your church

wants to engage, how can it engage?

Everyone in your church has got something, they may not have money,

but they can help decorate a house.

They, they may be able tojourney with someone and someone may not have time,

but they could invest their wealth to buy a house for the homeless and then you

own the house, but you lease it to us.

So you are sharing your wealth with the poor.

You can give to us, you can pray for us, you can connect with us, you can

inspire people, you can work for us, you can be a trustee for us, there's so

many ways, and if anyone gets in touch.

I generally say, great, let's have a coffee and over a coffee.

Let's find out.

What we're trying to do is God will reveal where your passions and talents

overlap with what we are doing.

And I'm sure something can come from it.

And we, we, I love having coffees with people.

I'd love to connect with you.

Just love

having coffee.

Uh, , . Yeah.

Fair enough.

Um, listen, Ed, thank you so much for coming on the, on the

What's the Story podcast, man.

It's been an absolute treat to, uh, to hear your story,

uh, love what you're doing.

Um, super, super awesome.

So my final question, I'm a bit like the Apostle Paul.

I say finally then ask another question.

Uh, I want you to imagine.

You're at the Christian Oscars for want of a better.

I can't think of a better example.

Uh, and you've just got your sort of lifetime achievement award and you

have a minute to thank all of those folks that have had a big impact

on your life, like family, mentors, authors, software, podcasters, whoever.

You know.

I'm curious, who do you thank and why?

Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean, my wife, my mother have had very,

uh, powerful spiritual impacts on me.

I think my dad and my older brother probably the most powerful.

Mm-hmm.

Um, then after that, will be Nelson Mandela and, um, Martin Luther King Jr.

They're probably, they'll be the ones I go for.

Fantastic.

And second persons today that's mentioned Martin Luther King,

uh, and Nelson Mandela actually.

Really interesting.

Um, when I read, when I read Martin Luther King's book, age 26, I thought,

what Bible has he read because it's a realnever have been taught that.

How did he get this message in the Bible?

And that's what's inspired me about him.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

The people can look like this.

All right.

Why did no one, why am I 26 and no one's told me that yet?

Yeah.

You know, that's what blew my mind about him.

Really interesting, isn't it?

When, uh, uh, if, uh, if what I read is correct, that actually his very famous

one, uh, you know, I have a dream speech.

Most of that was, um, quite, it was like a spontaneous thing, wasn't it?

It it was sort of, it wasn't planned.

It was just like, um, it just, that's the, the way I guess the Holy Spirit

took him at that point in time.

Of course, I mean, we can have questions about the rest of his

life, but at that point in time, you listen to that speech and you can.

And you just think, oh my goodness, my, I do that thing again where I compare

myself and I go, I, I think I'm okay at preaching, but then I listen to that and

go, I, I've not learned a single thing,

It was just incredible.

Absolutely incredible.

Fantastic.

We will of course, link to, uh, Ed's info in the show notes, which you can get

along for free, along with the transcript.

You can get 'em on the podcast app you are listening to, uh,

this podcast on, on YouTube.

If you're watching it in the description, or of course you can

get it on our website as well, which is, uh, whatsthestorypodcast.com.

And of course, if you're signed up to the newsletter, they will be winging

their way to your inbox, uh, Ed.

Fantastic.

Thanks man.

Really appreciate it.

Really appreciate you coming on the show.

Yeah, real pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

Uh, it's been a real honor, real privilege.

Oh, it's been brilliant, honestly.

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And in case no one has told you yet today, you are awesome.

Yes, you are.

Created awesome.

Uh, it's just the way God made you.

Uh, it's a burden you have to bear.

Ed has to bear it.

I have to bear it.

You've gotta bear it as well.

Now what's the story is produced by Crowd Online Church.

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Now that's it from me.

Thank you so much for joining me.

Uh, have a fantastic week wherever you are.

It's bye from me.

It's bye from Ed.