Cindy Moehring is joined by Jerry Jones, EVP and Chief Ethics and Legal Officer of LiveRamp, a data enablement platform. As a former Head of State, Jones is also a Special Advisor to Club de Madrid, a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting democracy and change in the international community.

They discuss the ways that LiveRamp handles their data stewardship through data security and data ethics. Likewise, Jones discusses the benefits of a comprehensive data law on the federal level, and how private companies are taking the initiative.

Learn more about the Business Integrity Leadership Initiative by visiting our website at https://walton.uark.edu/business-integrity/

Links from episode:

• Apple's New Privacy Policy: https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/
• The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/shoshana-zuboff/the-age-of-surveillance-capitalism/9781610395694/
• AI Superpowers: https://www.aisuperpowers.com
• The Age of AI: And Our Human Future: https://www.littlebrown.com/titles/henry-a-kissinger/the-age-of-ai/9780316273800/
• The Wires of War: Technology and the Global Struggle for Power: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Wires-of-War/Jacob-Helberg/9781982144432
• The Silken Thread: Five Insects and Their Impacts on Human History: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-silken-thread-9780197555583?cc=us&lang=en&

Hi, everyone. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and Executive Chair of the Business Integrity Leadership Initiative at the Sam M. Walton College of Business, and this is theBIS, the Business Integrity School podcast. Here we talk about applying ethics, integrity and courageous leadership in business, education and most importantly, your life today. I've had nearly 30 years of real world experience as a senior executive. So if you're looking for practical tips from a business pro who's been there, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome. Let's get started.

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of theBIS, the Business Integrity School. I'm Cindy Moehring, the founder and Executive Chair of the Business Integrity Leadership Initiatives. And I'm very fortunate to tell you that today for our discussion on all things tech ethics, we have with us a very special guest Jerry Jones from LiveRamp. Hi, Jerry, how are you?

I'm fine. Good morning, pleased to be here.

Good morning. It is. It's great to see you. And it was really great to be able to see you in person last month.

Thank you.

Jerry has had a very long history with Walton College. He's been on the Dean's external advisory board. He currently serves on my external advisory board for the Initiative. We have just been really fortunate to have a relationship with Jerry over the years. We work together way back in the day when I was at Walmart on some things and Jerry's just fantastic. He is the EVP and also the Chief Ethics and Legal Officer for LiveRamp. And in addition to that, he has a several other positions, but one of which is interest as Special Adviser to an organization known as Club de Madrid, which I know sounds like a soccer team or a soccer club, but it's actually not. It's a very special organization that you actually have to be a former head of state to be a member of and Jerry is fortunate enough to be a special advisor to them. So Jerry, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. It's wonderful that we get the chance to talk to you.

You're welcome. And thank you.

Can you just start by telling everybody the audience a little bit about you and your background and your history? How did you get interested in this field of of tech? And how did you find yourself in the position you are today at LiveRamp?

Great way to start. So I suppose my career decisions really started on a cold, wet Friday night on a football field in 1972. I was a Bentonville Tiger playing football against our arch rival, Rogers. And as luck would have it, I kind of had a bad break that night. I broke my ankle very severely. And I ended up in the hospital for a couple days. And I realized that you know, whatever athletic career I thought I might be able to achieve wasn't going to happen and I wanted to be a football coach, right. I was, I was a Razorback fan. I want to be a football coach. So that collegiate athletic experience that was going to be pretty much out of the question. So as I was laying in the hospital bed, I thought, Okay, now what? I thought about my skills and what I like to do and what I didn't like. And I realized that I really liked learning. I like talking with people and learning from people. And I thought about, well, where could that be put to use? I thought about preaching. I mean, our family was at the Methodist church every Sunday morning. But I didn't think I was going to work out so well for me. So I thought about being a lawyer. And that's why I decided I'd be a lawyer. So the next year, a couple of other things happen, I had the opportunity to be a state president, national officer, Future Business Leaders of America, which really broaden my perspectives that gave me the opportunity to travel across our country and meet people all over the United States. And it really was a wonderful experience and also met a very young, curly headed law professor who's thinking about running for Congress. And first time I met him I thought, you know, this fella just might end up being president of the United States. And he was. I was very blessed to have his friendship for 48 years. So all that convinced me that I ought to be a lawyer. So I went to the University of Arkansas, got my graduate, undergraduate degree in about three years. And while I was trying to rush through Well, I fall in love with a wonderful girl who was two years ahead of me in school, so I needed to catch up about as fast as I could before she got away. So I went straight to law school, graduated in 1980. And joined my dream law firm, Rose Law Firm in Little Rock.

Great law firm.

What a place. What a place. The intellectual and professional level of experience there was just well, it was dawning and thrilling at the same time. It was really the perfect place for me to grow up and practice law, which I did for 19 years, tried all kinds of products lawsuits, products liability, lender liability, security class actions, five antitrust cases that actually went to trial.

Wow.

We had some great mentors, people like Vince Foster, Phil Carroll, Hillary Clinton, Tim Belkin, Shimon and a bunch of others. And I learned so much, but where I really learned the most was having the opportunity to be around some of my amazing clients. They were great decision makers and great business people. Folks like Walter Smiley of Systematics, who's really the godfather of the technology industry in the state of Arkansas. Mr. Stevens, Jack Stephens at Stephens, Jennifer Ward of Alltel, his son Scott, first at Stevens and later Alltel. Mr. Tyson, Don Tyson of Tyson Foods, Ronnie Cameron of Mountaire, and Don Allen of the Poultry Federation, and Charles Morgan of Acxiom, and being around these people gave me the opportunity to see how they made decisions that created immense opportunities for the people that were working with them. And, you know, sometimes I just had to pinch myself to believe that I was really getting paid to provide counsel to these folks and their companies. I felt like, you know, they're probably sitting down at the end of the road, you know, having a Coke just waiting for me to show up, you know, waiting for me to catch up with them, because they were all brilliant. And then in the late 1990s, had the opportunity to represent Amazon, just as it was getting started. And it was being sued in a very, very serious case, that if we lost, it really would have put a cramp on their business. I mean, it was a literal bet the company lawsuit. And I spent time with their senior leadership, including Jeff Bezos, and all the things about him using a, you know, a door and a sawhorse for his desk, those are true. And I came to realize that this internet thing was really real. It was going to change the world. Literally, was going to change it. And it held the promise of kind of mitigating the tyranny of geography. And it opened up so many ways to share information at no cost around the globe, and change was on the horizon. And about that time, Charles Morgan of Acxiom started talking with me about joining the leadership team took about a year to get there, but we finally worked it out. And why would I leave my dream job at Rose and join Acxiom? Well, is hard decision but first, the people were great. They were just wonderful people to work with, you know, as a trial lawyer, and I represent them and most the time when a trial lawyer is around their client, there's a problem and people are not in a good mood. I always found these people to be very reasonable in operating good faith and second, they were the market leader. They were leaders of the world of direct marketing. And I thought it sure would be a lot of fun to be along for the ride and help transition that company from being a world leader in direct marketing into a digitally oriented business. Over the right time and cadence. And then finally, you know, to be honest, it was going to be a really good financial opportunity. And Charles said something that really impressed me. He said, Okay, what's it going to take? We didn't really want to negotiate. We were friends at that point he said what's it going to take for you to leave the Rose Firm after 19-20 years. And I told him. And he added 10%.

Oh, my gosh. He really wanted you.

And I was like wow, wow. And he got me. I mean, he got all of me. I was all in. You know, that was a tremendous vote of confidence. When I joined the company, I didn't want to be pigeonholed as the lawyer. So we put my title is Head of Business Development and General Counsel. And over the years, that worked out pretty well. I had the opportunity to take the company into Australia and Brazil, China, the Middle East. We bought several companies in Europe, one was a very interesting transaction. It was a French public company owned by an Italian public company that was dominated by a private equity firm. Oh, wow. It was a fascinating negotiation. I told, you know, my French colleagues that were buying the business, I said, Look, the only thing that I'm sure a few you want to check from us, we're all going to have to speak English because I don't understand Italian, I don't understand French. And we got the deal done. And being able to travel around the world and do those deals, again, really broadened my perspectives. It helped me understand how interconnected we are. So you know, over the years, have certainly had privacy report to me, which later renamed data ethics. I have public policy and do a lot of our M&A work in a lot of the security. And then I've also kind of been a utility infielder for the company from time to time. And I had security. And I also ran HR for about a year and a half, which again, was a really interesting experience. So one of the companies that we acquired along the way was LiveRamp. And that's the company that we are now. In 2018, while we were still Acxiom, we reorganized the company where LiveRamp became the parent company, and we sold off Acxiom to IPG. And that's worked pretty well, we're growing considerably when we bought the company, it had about $35-40 million in revenue. We are well over 500 million this year. So, it's a good company.

Wow. That's a lot of growth, really fast.

Well, thank you. We're very pleased that our customers have entrusted with that, with us with that much business. As you mentioned, I have been involved in a lot of public policy issues over the years. I was the chair of the only statewide School District for a number of years, it was completely virtual school. We got it started to show that you could deliver high quality educational content into parts of our state where you might not be able to get higher mathematics or advanced science teachers. I've been on the board of the University of Arkansas, Little Rock in Hereford, Arkansas and Governor Beebe called me one day and said, We got a problem that I'd like for you to fix. And I said, Well, Governor, we probably got a lot of those, but most definitely. He said, well, we need to get high speed broadband into all of our schools in Arkansas and I said, Well, I thought we did that back in '92. He said, Yeah, but that was with a copper wire. And, you know, those are 2400 baud capabilities. If anybody remembers what you know, 2400 baud was it's kind of like a turtle walking uphill. And we worked to get that. And, you know, I've also been blessed to work closely with the Clinton Foundation, Clinton School Public Service. As you mentioned, I have had the the honor of working with the Club de Madrid, it's the organization of former Heads of State, you have to have run a democracy to be a full member. We brought them to Little Rock about a decade ago to have their annual meeting here in Arkansas. They loved coming here. They loved coming here.

I bet.

And some of the members of that organization are literally the George Washington's of their countries. They are the people that actually fought in the streets and put their lives on the line to move their country to a representative form of government, of democracy. And it's just so inspiring to, to have the opportunity to work with them, to try to help democracies deliver better for their people, and also help other countries prepare, if they want to start moving down a path towards a more democratic form of government. If I may, there's one other thing that I want to mention.

Yeah.

That, for the last six years, have spent a lot of time in and is very close to my heart. And that is to try to bring awareness and progress to and combat the problems that we face from opioids and addiction. Our family lost a child to this disease. And I think it's critically important that we destigmatize the disease of addiction. It is an, it's a disease. So I've been speaking publicly about this disease hoping that in some small way, I can help destigmatize it. Also worked with a lot of other good people where we got a state law adopted in Arkansas that requires a medical professional to check a statewide prescription database before they can prescribe opiods. This cut down on a lot of doctor shopping, and prescription opioids are a, can very well be a pathway to addiction. And we just need to help the medical community better know their patients. We were glad to work on that. We saved some lives. And I've also worked with some very large retail companies to do some things in this area. And I'm very proud of what Walmart in particular has done in this effort. But so much remains to be done. You know, the news is recently told us that we lost 100,000 people in our country last year to opiods and, and opiate overdoses. So this is something that, as I said, it's close to my heart. It's close to my family's hearts. And it's something that we're we're trying to make better. So that's probably way too much.

No, you have such an interesting and varied background and have given given of yourself so much back to the state and into this cause that obviously is very close to your heart for obvious reasons. And, you know, I'm so sorry for your loss. And I'm glad that you're able to, to take that that passion and channel it in into another way. But I mean, you you give back in so many ways that hearing about that and the different things that you're involved in, I think is very useful for the audience to understand how full and purposeful life can be well beyond just what you do on the business side. So thanks for sharing all that. I thought that was wonderful. So let's come back and talk about LiveRamp for just a minute. That company itself as is not going to be a household name to a lot of people. So I want to set the stage for that and have you tell us a little bit about it. And then we're going to dive into what you talked about, data, data privacy, data ethics, a little bit. But tell us briefly, who is LiveRamp and what do they do?

Sure.Well, LiveRamp's vision is that we will help make the world's data safe and effective. As we've talked about, we're a relatively fast growing technology oriented company that does several things. First, we're really really good at being able to link offline data with online data. Secondly, we provide ways for our customers who are businesses that want to reach certain groups of people to do so. To market to groups of people at scale, either digitally or physically. In third, we provide the capabilities for companies such as retailers to be able to safely and secure data about their customers with those who they want to share data with. And fourth, we've created a marketplace where companies can monetize the data that they have, in a secure and privacy respectful manner. You'd kind of think of that part of our business as the New York stock exchange of data. We don't know the data that goes through our marketplace, we just provide the paths and facilities. Most of our revenue comes from the United States, but about 20% round numbers comes from outside of the US primarily in European countries. But we have the capability of providing services pretty much globally. We have offices across the US, we're headquartered in San Francisco. We have offices in Central Arkansas here in Little Rock, in New York, in Phoenix, in Chicago and a number of other places and offices and in Europe and in China, Japan, and Australia as well. So that's who we are, we have roughly 1500 people round numbers, who are our colleagues working with.

Mm hmm. Wow. So, so LiveRamp is really a B2B company, which is why, you know, there's not an app, they can't go out there and, you know, find an app. It's a company that is a, is a B2B company, but a really critical one, in terms of this information and data flow that you just talked about. So let's talk about the data. Obviously, a company like LiveRamp has to have a lot of data or be working with a lot of data, like you said, sometimes you're just the pipes for which it goes through. I've actually heard, not sure if I've got this right, I'll let you tell me, that it's one of the largest datasets in the world out there that you guys work with and manage outside of, you know, maybe a few of the very, very large tech companies. But that really brings to mind for me data ethics, data privacy, which is just a bedrock principle for you know, the business model that you have. So can you share with us a little bit about how LiveRamp thinks about ensuring protection and privacy for all the data that it uses, manages, touches, owns?

Yes, we do touch a lot of data about people, and obviously, we take our responsibilities around that very seriously, we view ourselves as stewards of data and, you know, with that data in an appropriate, respectful manner, eventually, we're not going to be able to deal with the data, the laws will change, or something will happen.

Yeah.

do the right thing. You know, if you do the right thing, in the first instance, things get a lot simpler. That's, that's kind of our foundational mindset, do the right thing. So data privacy can really be looked at from two primary perspectives. First, the data has to be as secure as it can be, once it is within our system and we're transferring data. And we have a dedicated security team that's charged with setting the security standards, policies and practice. And they're constantly working to assure the integrity of our systems. We know there we're targets. We know. The news has been replete over the years with a number of hacking instances. Through companies, both electronic and, and social engineering. And so we have to be very, very vigilant in our efforts to prevent improper access, and exfiltration of our data. So we take it seriously.

Yeah, so so just on that just, on that point for a minute. I mean, let's think about that. It's in terms of being a target. For a company like LiveRamp, it would be getting able, I mean, they would be able to get access to so many different individual and company's data, right, as opposed to just targeting a company. So I, I can understand now with your business model, why, why you would be such a target. And I would imagine, a hacking incident is one that your security team spent a lot of time thinking about, to try to avoid, wow.

Well, it does. Almost 15 years ago, we were at Acxiom, we did have two incidences that happened at the same time, where we were hacked, and it was discovered, and we called up the US Attorney, called up the FBI, and we were actually able to assist the US government in bringing prosecutions. And it's one of the few times when there has been a successful prosecution of hackers. And they went to jail. There was somebody in Ohio that went to jail for about five years. And then the CEO of a company that had hacked us for, hacked Acxiom for commercial reasons, went to jail, the CEO went to jail. And I would say that, you know, that's one of the few instances where we've been able to utilize the laws that are already on the books to pursue hackers, because many times hackers are beyond the jurisdiction.

Right.

Not in states.

Right.

It was a, it was a good experience working with the Department of Justice on this. It was really the first time that they had pursued this type of case. And we learned from each other. So we do take it serious, and we want to hold people accountable. Secondly, the other aspect of our data stewardship is data ethics. And we don't call it data privacy, we call it data ethics. And the reason we change to data ethics is one, when we were talking with regulators and you know, they knew that we had as much data as just about anybody on the planet. It seemed a little bit of a stretch to say that we really believe in privacy. Right? If we were holding all of this data, but what we do believe in and did believe in is the ethical and the proper and the appropriate use of data. And the law, you know, is the outer boundary of ethical conduct if you think about it. And so by having an ethical framework around this, it allows us to legitimately ask the questions, can we use this data? That's an important question. But more importantly, should we use this data in this way? We use the mom and grandparent question a lot. Would your mom, or your grandparents be okay, with the use of data about them? If they are, we're using it. And those are, those are good ditches to stay between, they really are. So we have a dedicated team. I brought on someone who I'd worked with for 35 years, to head up our data ethics team, and they're professionals. They're fully certified. And we don't look at them from a, you know, an internal policing function. We look at them as part of the business team where they're fully embedded, and we embed the ethical concepts of data use into the culture of the business. We believe this will serve as well over time. And so far, so good.

That's great. Yeah, a seat at the table at the front end with people who are thinking about a particular business issue, especially when you're talking about data, right. So that you get it right at the front end, actually, I think can help, in many respects, save you money down the line, right, because you're going to get it right the first time, as opposed to trying to fix it on the back end, which can sometimes be, you know, two or three times as much as it costs on the front end, if you would have just got it right. You know, plus you invite scrutiny and, and potential regulatory action and everything else. But I love how you frame that up. I mean, ethics truly is and tech ethics in particular, it's not what can you do with with the data, it's what should you do? And oftentimes, it feels like that question isn't thought of, so kudos to LiveRamp for asking that at the beginning. So So let's, let's pull together this data ethics and data, responsible use of data topic with the public policy side of it, which which I know you're very, very involved in. And, you know, we've got this interesting moment in time, which we've had for a while now, where the US has not had any federal data ethics, responsible use of data, data privacy, kind of regulation, European Union, you know, Blue Bias, now they have GDPR, you know, California put in there's, you know, the CPP or CCPA, I should say, but we don't have anything at the federal level. So I guess my question is, do you think that would be beneficial if we had that and some type of uniform regulation around data and data protection?

Yes, absolutely. And allow me to expand upon that a little bit. We do have a lot of federal laws that deal with how data about people can be used, but we don't have a comprehensive law, we have laws that are more sectoral in nature. For instance, the Fair Credit Reporting Act that provides certain types of data can only be used for permissible purposes, think employment, access to credit, things like that. And that's an example of how data that's very sensitive has been able to be utilized for good purposes to help people get loans, to be able to get credit at distance from people that don't know you personally.

Yeah.

You know, when I was growing up in Bentonville, if if my parents wanted to build a house, they really had one place to go to get a home loan, and that was the Benton County Savings and Loan. And now if you want to get a home loan, you can go on the internet, and there are 1000s of opportunities to get a better interest rate precedents. And that's an example of how data can work for the public good. You've got HIPAA regulating data about health, you got COPPA, which is the use and collection of online data about children. And it goes on. But you're very, very right that we do not have a comprehensive national law, data law. And yes, we need one. And we have been, and I personally had been of this view for a long time. Why? Well, first, the US created the data industry around the globe. Our businesses, our inventors, our entrepreneurs have created the data industry and have built phenomenal companies with data as the foundation. So in my view, the United States government should be the data regulatory superpower in the world. But that's France and the EU. It is my view that we need a comprehensive and pre emptive national data law that properly balances the interest of people, society at large, business, fostering a level playing field for business and people, and allows American, American businesses to be able to continue to think and make business decisions with data. There are currently dozens of bills that have been filed in the Congress and this happens, every term, so many that I've lost count, there really is a pathway to passage in most of the central players and these issues, know, the two things, the two big roadblocks right now the impediments that need to be turned into the building blocks of the bridge to an actual law. And those are preemption. And under what circumstances can a person who has suffered from a violation, of whatever the federal law is, have access to the American judicial system? And I think that there are good and valid reasons why people should be able to access the judicial system.

Yes.

If they have suffered actual harm from a substantial violation of privacy law, no doubt about that.

Right.

But there are things that the various interest groups on both sides want to say and don't want to say, it's a very big political issue. Preemption, meaning whether or not the federal law is going to set the floor or set the ceiling for data privacy laws and preempt or replace various state laws, right, can't really be solved until the Congress can come to grips and the access to the judicial system issue, because if you're a member of Congress, how can you decide whether or not this is a good deal for people or not? Until you know, what are the accountability provisions that will show that the system is going to operate fairly. But a path can be found on this. The United States Senate, I think is where the real action is going to have to play out. That's not to say that the United States House of Representatives, it's not going to have a massive and critical role in formulating a law. But the 60 vote mountain in the United States Senate is what has to be scaled. And that means that we have to find a way currently at present, probably for a long time to find bipartisan support to get the 60 votes, because you're, you know, it's just hard. It's hard to get together 60 votes of anything in the United States Senate. But we're starting to see some movement. But you know, a couple of years ago, I gave a speech at the United States Chamber of Commerce, where I started out by reading a quote from a newspaper article that I had in my hand that said, 'There was no doubt, it was eminent that a Privacy Bill was going to go to the President for signature during that term.' That was, that article, though, was from 20 years ago.

Goodness. Well, and you know, in that, in that That's crazy to think about, but you know, sometimes we move a little slowly on that side, which when you're talking about technology, and the pace of you know, laws and regulations. That's why there's this huge gap in between the two and, and the explosion of the internet. Over the last 20 years, I think it's really now brought this into sharper focus, and put a finer point on perhaps the need for some type of comprehensive federal regulation that goes well beyond just kind of the sector things that you mentioned, it's really the the wild west of the internet and the way that data is being used in that way. That That seems to be screaming for some type of attention these days. So keep at it. It sounds like there's still some work to do there. So so let's talk about that particular aspect of it in the internet, the data that's on the internet, the way, to your point that, you know, we've got the entrepreneurs here that sort of figure that whole model out. And a lot of that has to do with advertising, right and advertising through the internet in a very targeted way, which of course is going to be beneficial to the companies that are doing the advertising, it's more efficient, ad spend probably has a much better rate of return when you can target who you're Advertising. And obviously there are those who like that, and there are those who don't. But my question is, it has to this point, sort of kept the Internet free, support it for those of us who use it, just pretty much everybody these days. But do you think that sort of targeting is is makes sense? Is it a form of almost, you know, discrimination among customers that could be defined as good discrimination? And if so why?

Oh, great question. And this is a, this is a very important question. And it's, if we think about the value proposition here, you know, it's literally mind blowing to think that a device that I have in my pocket, I can punch in a couple of words, and I can find out the answer to almost anything. Or I can find, you know, toys that we want to give to our grandchildren this year, at Christmas from around the globe, instantly. There's just an amazing thing. And the value that we get from being able to share information with people around the world and the collective wisdom of the world can increase because the method of communication is there, and as you point out, is basically free to the consumer. But it's not entirely free, because it is supported by advertising, which is supported by information about people. And, you know, again, you know, I hate to keep talking about when I was growing up. But when I was growing up there in Bentonville, you know, there were a lot of truths about advertising then that are true now. One was that the businesses wanted to know who their customers were, they wanted where to spend their time and their money. And there was a clothing store, it was Putnams, men's store, right off the square in Bentonville, where, you know, my dad and I would go in our Sunday clothes, and the people that worked there knew us. They knew what we bought, they knew what we might be interested in, you know, gee, Jerry, I remember you bought that blazer last month, Why don't you get these gray slacks and red tie to go with it? It sure would look good. Well, now we're trying to do that at scale and distance using computers. And it's not the same. But that's the goal, is to be able to know your customer and know your prospect. So they're going to be some rough edges on that. But overall, is it a good value exchange? Yeah, I think it is. From the business side, it means that you're gonna be able to better allocate, and provide information to people that has a better chance of being relevant to that person. Just flooding them with things that are not relevant. You know, in the early days of internet marketing, there are all these popup ads, that would literally be like bubbles coming up on your screen, you know, offering you this or that, that had no relevance to your life, whatsoever.

Yeah.

It would be like General Motors trying to sell me, you know, a 50 ton dump truck.

Right, right

I have no use for that. General Motors, if they knew who I was, might say, you know, Jerry might be a good candidate for a Denali, or even more refined, you know, his his son and his wife, probably not going to be able to sell him a two seater Red Corvette anytime soon, because they got kids. But you know, what, we could sell them a Denali or some kind of an SUV, if we know that they're in a certain income range and there's a presence of children, then they can tailor that information. And, you know, the terminology around these concepts, those kind of got the industry knocked back a little bit. Words like, you know, behavioral capitalism or surveillance capitalism, even the word targeting is kind of an emotionally laden word. But, you know, targeting is really, you could call it, you know, providing relevant information.

I was just gonna say relevancy could be another term that you use, right?

Relevancy. But, you know, having said all this, of course, there are companies and business models that go too far. And a lot of times the market will take care of that a lot of times regulation will, you know, bring them back in. But overall, I think that the people of the globe have immensely benefited from the relative availability of data that supports entrepreneurs and in lots of business models. And advertising in and of itself, I think it has been historically the most Effective cross subsidization of speech that can be imagined. And it's been that way almost since the Gutenberg Press. Right? It works. Very few publications can survive on subscriptions alone. To have that advertising revenue. It was a public good. Look at it from that way.

If you do it, yeah. Yeah. So So you have I have to bring into the conversation. At this point, Apple's new privacy feature that at this point, the point of our recording has been out in the out there for about six months. And it's the privacy feature for, you know, the the new operating system, when you download it that, that lets the end user consumer, essentially say, I don't want to be targeted, you know, for ads. So don't I don't want my data shared by different apps, anymore than is absolutely necessary for that app to use it for its intended purpose, which would seem to me that it, you know, takes away the relevancy of the ads. And, and those the individuals who choose to do that may, in fact, be flooded with, you know, ads that aren't relevant anymore. But I just saw a recent report that said, of the folks that have downloaded the new, you know, update, which is, I don't know, somewhere north of 80% of those who had it available, but the majority of them have decided to, to, to opt out, if you will, when given that option. So how do you what how do you think about that, in light of the discussion we just had with respect to the good that advertising can do? And how do you balance those two?

Yeah, well, you know, first, I would say that Apple had every right in the world to make the decision to do it that way. Apple is a private company, it's not a government entity. So as long as it operates within the laws, it can make decisions that it believes are in the best interest of its business. And Apple has done a very good job of planting its flag on the side of privacy writ large, their CEO has been talking about this for quite a long period of time. And they, they're a very sophisticated company, they had I don't think they would have made that decision unless they thought it would benefit their company.

Right.

Alright, so fine, that's their decision. Now, the outcome of it is that it is causing shifts in the way the industry works, and where advertising dollars get allocated. It's taken about $10 billion away from publishers of content. And, you know, different platforms are benefiting more from the shift of advertising, to those platforms that are not, you know, dependent upon Apple traffic. But there is an interesting aspect of of how it works. It is a great example of how giving people just-in-time information, the good thing, but it's also a limited just-in-time display of information. Because, again, it says basically, do you want to be tracked or not? Yes or no? Does it make the argument or present the information that you know what, if everybody says I don't want to be tracked, we're gonna have to figure out a different way to support the business of the internet. And you may end up having to swipe your credit card every time that you want to go on the internet, and try to find something. So how do you feel about it now? Right? But that's a full paragraph, do you want to be tracked, you know, three, four words. And the concept of behavioral economics comes into play here. And that's all about where you said, the fault. And studies show that inertia is an extremely powerful thing. If you set a default one way or the other, in, in a lot of different aspects of life, 80% are going to say I'm going with a default, 20% are going to make a change. Some years ago, Stanford did a study on organ donation. And they looked at Europe, various countries in Europe, where the default is your organs can be donated for research or to save someone's life after your death. And about 80% go along with that default. 20% say no, don't wanna do that. And yes, if you have affirmative consent to do that, guess what? Only about 20% of us say yes, and 80% of us just leave it the way it is.

That's right.

And so the numbers that we're seeing coming out of Apple, you know, kind of fit within that. And they kind of fit within that. So it's not surprising to see how that's, you know, working out. And of course, it was interesting to see, when Apple came out with this that, you know, one of the largest platforms, Facebook, now known as Meta took out full page ads and national publicize. Applications criticizing Apple for the, for doing something that might reduce the amount of data that's available for marketing decisions. It's just interesting to see these giants fight over these issues. You know, finally we have an internet is primarily supported by advertising and marketing. I think that's a pretty good deal for people. I actually do.

Yeah, with the amount of information that's at our fingertips that just never was, you know, before huge medical advances has been allowed because of it too. So I mean, you really, really do have to step back and think critically about where to land and the kind of language to your point that's being used and whether or not the words you know, tracking. And in other words, if there are other words that could be used, it would make it feel a little less inflammatory. And if that might be stoking the fires a bit.

You know, it reminds me of how enriching it is for life to have all that information available. When dad turn around 90 My sisters and I got mom and dad a computer. And you know, they're a little bit hesitant to use it. They took a course at Northwest Arkansas Community College, I believe, to learn how to use it. Call me one day after you had figured out how to use it said, 'Son, This is like living next door to the Library of Congress. I can research anything that I want to. And are you aware of what's happening with fertility of frogs?' And I said, 'No, Dad, where are you going with this?' And he said, 'Well, They're kind of at the bottom of the food chain eating insects, and they're not as fertile as they used to be. So something's going on,' and that's, he was right, you know, and here he is, a 90 year old gentleman, able to research anything that came to his mind as a result of the internet. That's an amazing thing. It's not just my dad. That's anybody almost almost around the planet.

Right? That's right. And that's a great story to kind of illustrate the power of the internet and what it brings to people. Jerry, this has been a fascinating conversation. Very wide ranging, we covered a lot of ground, I appreciate you sharing your time, your wisdom, your stories, your history, everything with us. It was fabulous. I always like to leave us with one last question, though, for the audience, students, others who want to know a little bit more about this topic of tech ethics, data ethics, you know, where the world is headed with AI. Do you have any good recommendations where people can find it, I'm sure on the internet and go further, either documentaries, maybe or podcasts or books or anything like that.

Oh, sure. I love books. I got that for my mom, you know, school teacher for her whole life. You know, to get a comprehensive view of kind of the counter argument to a lot of what I've said there's a book called Surveillance Capitalism came out a couple of years ago. It's about 850 pages, kind of hard to get through but it's got a lot of information. I'm looking over to my bookcase, AI superpowers. Really good book. The Age of AI, which just came out, it's authored by Secretary Kissinger and Eric Schmidt. The Wires of War is an interesting book. And it goes into, will warfare change?, as a result of advances in computing and artificial intelligence. And then, this is a really odd recommendation, but there is a direct connection to computing. In a book by two entomologists called The Silken Thread. And they actually traced the relationship between Silkworms and silk, and computers. And around the end of, in the late 1800s, they started to figure out how to automate the weaving of silk. And they were using a rudimentary type of thing called cards to do that, from which punch cards came. And there's a guy named Hollerith that figured out how to do this and he ended up starting a company that later changed its name to International Business Machines and the book is fascinating to think that, Wait a minute. Silkworms has something to do with computing? But it's a good example of how entrepreneurs and inventors really do invent the future for all of us and make life better.

Oh, wow. That's, that is, that's fascinating as as has everything else you've shared with us today, I love the way you're able to weave in stories that you wouldn't expect along the way. So, Jerry, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you very, very much for your time and for sharing so, so openly with all of us. I really appreciate it and I know students and others are going to learn a lot by listening to this episode. Appreciate it.

One final comment.

Yeah,

Go hogs.

Absolutely. Go hogs. Thanks, Jerry. Bye.