From Basement to 8-Figures: Reekon Tools & the Future of Hardware with Christian Reed

Episode 7 • 3rd September 2025 • WHY DESIGN? • Chris Whyte | Kodu

Chris Whyte (: 00:00

LinkedIn is authentic in a sense. do post it, but I don't actually have a Boston or New York accent. But I like to exaggerate it to make it seem more like a tradesperson at that point. I'm going to use my Derek Rock persona. Absolutely.

Keep us on track. Cool. Set it to.

Chris Whyte (: 00:27

10 quid. Cool. Cool. And I can use it in the kitchen as well. Right.

Chris Whyte (: 00:38

So we're recording but obviously we'll edit this. So Christian, welcome to the podcast. Glad to be here. Yeah, really good to have you and yeah, thanks for making the trip out. So really looking forward to dive into this. I'm going to do the cringy bit now where I'll talk about kind of just set up the scene, give a little intro to yourself. And then we'll dive into what the episodes about. Sounds great. So yeah, Christian Reed, you are the founder and CEO of Recon Tools.

a Boston based startup building digital measuring tools and software for connected construction sites. Since launching during the pandemic, Recon has become one of the most talked about new tool brands, blending rugged usability with smart tech, community engagement and standout storytelling. And certainly how I became aware of you and your brand as well is through one aspect of the storytelling is the LinkedIn content. We'll dive into that as well.

uccessful hardware company in: 2025

we're going to try and cover as much off as we can in the time we've got. But we'll go into your origin story, the design journey there, and how you became more than just a tool company, how to build for tradespeople, not just for the store shelves, the role of storytelling, team building and staying clean, and then finding your reflections on leadership, lessons learned and what's next. yeah, great. Let's dive in, shall we? The first question I always ask my guests is why design? Where did it all start?

What first drew you into engineering and product design? Yeah, design, I guess my passion that I can trace furthest back to high school and before I was building things. I've always been hands on making things and like many people that takes evolution from working with stuff you can buy it. Home Depot or Lowe's, a circular saw, drill, a Dremel, and then you go to college, you have access to all these 3D printers, CNC machines, and then you...

Chris Whyte (: 03:01

go to real industry and kind of get crushed of how you can make a prototype of anything, but that doesn't translate very well to manufacture something. You learn how to manufacture something. then today we've, at least at Recon, have gone back to what is for me the purest way someone makes something, which is they go to a home improvement store, they get tools, and then whether they're using it professionally or personally, it's a great way to really exemplify that creativity in the physical world with it. So I guess that's where.

My passion always started and I guess specifically designed as something that was much more of a grown appreciation where on the outside, know, very early, both my family at the time, you know, early adopters of the original iMac, the OG with the CRT screens and stuff with it and always appreciated the uniqueness of it before it became a lot trendier with it and became back in the mainstream after the iPod, iPhone and everything came out with it. So I think it was something always

In the back of my mind, but to be frank, wasn't something that I fully exercise until going to recon where it just seemed like something that was more than, you know, a check mark of industrial design UX. You know, I also learned the complexities and depths of design, which was also kind of news to me of not thinking of something more notional and quantifying it like many things until you actually execute it. So that was much more.

of when I came to Recon and realizing that that was a core tenant of what we do versus we weren't just going to have good design. Design was going to be one of the core tenants of the many things we do from the technology to the practicality of the solutions that design played a key role of unlocking the puzzle of tools that you can beat the crap out of, but still are something that introduce an order of magnitude benefit to one's workflow on the job site. Yeah, wonderful.

And you started you started at MIT, didn't you say here in Boston? talk us through those kind of early days then and, you know, from kind of studying MIT, I think you did some time in the military as well as a reservist. Three to four months, it talks through kind of the career if you will. Yeah, so in high school, like I said, I think the most useful thing I did outside of you know,

Chris Whyte (: 05:06

maintaining all the check marks, we're getting into a good school was building things. I always liked building things in MIT, both on paper and practicality was always advertised as a place where engineers go. That's the pinnacle of engineering. You make all stuff there. And I guess the revelation I had at school that ends maybe not counterintuitive to most and now has become a lot trendier to say, but academics are probably the least important thing I did at MIT.

very quickly realized classes were not for me, going to get the perfect GPA was not for me. It was the time I spent in the machine shop working on products, learning how things were made and connecting with a very engaged and passionate group of people that any of those schools, MIT, Ivy League, Stanford are just magnets for attracting that talent. And again, not that you need to go to any of those schools. And if I had my way, college wouldn't be the best people we hired have no pedigree of going to great schools. They're just talented, passionate people. And it's unfortunate that there's a

correlation between the two. I would be lying if I said having MIT on my resume didn't help with people giving me instant credibility. And a lot of it, think, is unjustified of that. I was fortunate that the stars aligned and I had the credentials to get in there with it. But I think it was much more of just a magnet of attracting talented people and a flexible space of giving people the opportunity to explore their passions. And mine certainly was on academics. It was on building things.

spending time in the machine shop making cool inventions and prototypes. And I think, you know, the two phases I kind of split up to was school was very good at teaching me how to make things, you know, think critically and make quantity one of something. then post MIT, post military was at form labs. And that told me how to make quantity a hundred thousand of something and realizing, which wasn't clear at the time that notionally leaving school and saying, you know, injection molding and stuff is like radically different than actually having to make a product in like your

on the line with it and anyone who's made a product knows that final 5 to 10 % is where most of the pain and suffering lives versus, you know, getting it to 95 % of the way there with it. But you can't deal with that when you're clicking the go button and making 25,000 of something, especially when you're, you know, company revenue, money, any, you know, personal money, but if you don't take external capital is like on the line, like it either works or it doesn't. And you go with a spectacular bang with it. yeah, hard hardware is hard. Definitely appreciate that more at Formlabs and then

Chris Whyte (: 07:21

In between the two, did ROTC in school, so that paid for my full education, which is great. Went in the military as a reservist, but got deployed in 2015. So it was kind of nice, I guess, to have a consolidated experience where I went to training for five months and then deployed basically all of 2015. a good diversity of, right, you not that you work with a bunch of nerds, but, a lot of people go fresh out of school, right, into working at tech companies. And it's just not, not that some of them, you know, don't...

exists in various parts of the leadership spectrum, but it was certainly something that was unique to me not having missing out on the two years of technical and company learning I supplemented with having, you know, a more diversified leadership experience in a much more adverse environment. So when you kind of go back and you deal with fires or issues at a startup, knowing that you're going to go home, go to sleep, see your dog, your girlfriend, wife, whatever. It's like, know, whatever, like it keeps it a lot. Yeah, a lot more level.

with it as well. as you said, the introduction, everything kind of culminate and a lot of it is only clear in retrospect, right? Not at the time like, wow, this is going to help with this. It's in retrospect, like, that kind of sucks, but it helps with X, Y, and Z in the growth. I think that was really the culmination and the summary of the early years and what led to Recon of learning how to make things and think about product development, the leadership of how to grow and really execute an entrepreneurial vision. And then Formlabs was really

tying it together and how to execute that, make a company, which again, making a product and making a company are separate but related things that need to be successful. And I think all those were really necessary for Recon to be successful. Without any of those items, it would have been, I don't know if it would have been successful or not successful, but it would have been radically different than what it turned out to be. absolutely. It's a much harder way to learn those lessons, isn't it, when you just go straight into something. So I just want to dive back slightly in terms of

your experience at MIT and also your views now and the way that you hire. There may be parents of young designers or aspirational designers and engineers listening to this who might be worried that their child isn't going to get into an establishment like MIT, for instance.

Chris Whyte (: 09:35

What advice if any, I'm throwing this at you kind of, but would you give to those young people or those kind of parents in terms of how, can you get ahead without the, you know, the brand, the MIT kind of behind you? Yeah, it's a tough equation. And I say from a perspective of have gone to MIT, but saying, you know, if I had my way, it wouldn't be, know, if you need to go to school for some academic or research, like, great, that's the place to go for it where otherwise, and again, if the if I could have the MIT branding, but

do a startup or work at a company for four years, I would 10 times out of 10 say work at a company or startup for four years with it, but it's silly to ignore that the branding does have some impact with it. So I think the advice I have and again can be misconstrued as well as like really, you know, follow the path. My passion was always in making something and it just turned out that MIT was the best place to continue that process of making things, give me access to the facilities to do that, participate in, know, ROTC to expand.

you know, leadership potential that I had at the time with it. So I think it worked out well for me where in a lot of cases, it's not the end of the world if you don't go there. And I think, you know, I do feel stronger of like, you either go all in or bust like either you go to one of the best schools in the world that's going to do it or other ways, you know, consider a going a less expensive option to a state school or B just forget it completely and figure out a way to get

involved in it. And if you are passionate, just document it along the way, right, especially for design and stuff. There are a lot of people who make cool stuff, but are not good at designing or presenting it. And that gets more into the storytelling aspect that I think one of the keys that helped me outside of having the check marks, know, SATs, ACTs, standardized testing, GPA with it was, I had a very robust portfolio, especially at the time in high school before social media was as big, I had a, you know, blog post of, you know, the 30 or 40 things I had made in high school with it.

you know, document the photos, the process with it. On my essays, I talked about things I made with it. So again, the storytelling of me was not, know, Christian is a really smart nerd guy with that. It's like, yeah, I have all those like whatever. So does everyone else who applies to a good school. But I had a lot of stuff that I was passionate about documented it and showed how that running track and cross country all these extracurriculars helped inspire what you know, my ultimate goal wasn't expressed, which is, you know, something entrepreneurial when the time came right with it. So

Chris Whyte (: 11:51

I think, you know, just documenting it and keeping for, and especially for design where it is so just rich, visual friendly, the better you get at that, that will help with every aspect of your career from going to college, getting a job with it. And, you know, we can maybe talk more about later, but the resume is probably the least important thing of looking at designers, portfolio and what they did not, it doesn't matter what company they worked at. It's very easy to see from a portfolio of someone was in the room of an established company or was the one actually driving decisions and, know, making good design process.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's a thing that comes up time and time again, in terms of, you know, show your work and show the process that you've been through, not just the nice kind of outcome. It's like, kind of what pain did you go through? What problems did you solve? And but yeah, it's interesting that you should be thinking about that, kind of before you're prompted to do it. Let's just start kind of

you know, like say blogging, if someone gets laid off, the first thing is like always like, hey, I'll say like, if they say, hey, I'm looking for a job recently laid off, like, hey, I need a few days for my portfolio together. Right. And so and that's fine. It's not a big deal. But it's always it always doesn't matter if you have the most comfy job in the world, like maintaining the projects that you're allowed to share, NDAs or whatever you have in place with it. I think that's the key of maintaining getting ahead. If you can get in the habit of doing it when you're 17 or 18 years old, it's a skill that will benefit you for the rest of your

career and life and also just your reflections, right? So it's great to look back like, wow, that was five years ago now that I worked on that. Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, especially at that early stage in your career as well, where it's super competitive, you know, for for each job role, you know, being able to say, Yeah, here you go. I've got it. You stand out. That's what that's what it's all anything job college is all about standing out in a crowded field. Absolutely. Absolutely. So let's let's talk about recon tools and so

founded during: 2020

Chris Whyte (: 14:06

I don't care what the idea is, I just want to make a company that's going to disrupt the space with it. And for me, that could be something. And again, there's nothing wrong with either, but it's a lot different being like, well, I found a company like, you maybe it's crude to say and like a cliche, but like Uber, right? Like, is anyone passionate about travel or like the idea of like disrupting a space, right? And again, nothing wrong with that. But for me, I knew that for me to stay engaged and interested in the highs and lows of a company, had to be something that A, I saw, of course, a pathway for it to go to the races, but B,

something that I was passionate about, which for me was always making something with it. So I think Formlabs is a great way to work, work and learn in a very entrepreneurial environment, but really set the stage for when I found the idea of being able to go to the races with it. And I think that idea came up not necessarily by accident, but when I first started at Formlabs, I had launched a Kickstarter for a little multi-tool I made, which was a good first step process of just full ownership of designing something, marketing it, selling it and going out the door that I made.

rs later with it. But then in: 2019

came to our first product, the M1 caliber, which clamps onto a miter saw, measures what's rolled underneath it. Very simple, but tree of that is like, hey, know, this is a cool idea. We'll probably sell it. Let's launch it as a Kickstarter and treat it as a side project. So there's not the intention of like, we're going to make this a company. It's like, let's launch it as side project, see what it does with it. So did that, spent the six or so months making the product, designing it, coming out. And again, all these same principles and its infancy, like it has to look nice with it. It has to be functional. It has to look like a

re going to lunch in April of: 2020

Chris Whyte (: 16:27

million in the 45 or so day period with it. then when you see that, that's when it's like, hey, know, a I should, you know, it'd be foolish for me to treat the side project like this is, you know, allows me to have the flexibility. And that's when we really started to say, hey, you know, how do we change this from this, you know, cool and interesting, obviously successful idea, but to a company that has the potential to go to the races with it. So again, nothing at the time was deliberate of like, hey, we're going to remain bootstrapped. We're not going to accept any VC methods. And, know, didn't really have the same story to tell to make it a

VC backable company with it, I think on the outside at the time and both heard that directly and indirectly, was like, Christian and Recon's working kind of like a little gimmicky side project or whatever with it. So all that adds fuel and the fun with it because no one has the insight and we can play the long game and the passion and excitement about Recon is not only the products we make, but knowing that the...

long-term vision for this outside of money on the back end is that we have the chance to disrupt an elemental industry to the world. Walking down the street and seeing dudes with recon gear on their person is like, that's the real excitement and passion for here versus like, just another company and other ideas. That's really the fuel that keeps it going and allows you to go through the inevitable peaks and valleys of a startup and what led to the initial foundation of recon, which took side project and turned it into a company. And now today, after several hundred thousand product ships.

That's awesome. So how long was it then before you kind of, you're still working at Formlabs whilst you were on a side project. And I guess if they'd had known how serious it going to be, they may have over to you a bit more serious. And I don't know, there's a lot of people I speak to that whose contracts would prevent them doing kind of the side side project like that. Because it's taking you essentially taking you away from the work that you're employed to do. But how long

Anyway, that's the tangent. How long was it before kind of? Well, were you doing it before you then exited and then went full time? Yeah, probably, I would say seven or eight months of prep. And then we launched a Kickstarter. And then it's pretty clear pretty quickly. It's like, all right, you know, now you have to kind of make the serious decision. And it was, be honest, kind of a no brainer, right? Like, and I think people appreciate that form labs was a great magnet in a testament to

Chris Whyte (: 18:42

Max and everyone over there have just like they attracted really smart entrepreneurial people. And this is inevitably what, know, Formlabs has many spin-off companies with it and is really something that we should look at as a prideful event, right? I think that shows just the power of attracting those people there, nurturing them to the next level, and then them going off and doing their own things with it. So I think that's how they view it there with it. And something that I was very delighted, you know, just, think, caution for young designers of like, don't, you shouldn't work for a company that views that as competing, right? Like,

A lot of stuff I did on my own helped me be a better, you know, engineer, program manager, program director for form labs with it and vice versa with it. They helped me, I helped them with it in any environment where you try to limit a designer, engineer, or anyone from doing their outside passions is not a job you should work at. Right. So that's something you have to be careful with. And I actually, turned down several job offers where there were more stringent controls in place in the whatever confidential intellectual property agreement of

what you're allowed to do, what the company owns. Like some companies would say anything you invent inside or outside of work using your own stuff is property. that's like, obviously not a fair, reasonable way. And I think people sometimes just blindly sign them where a lot of times you have levered. Like I've told people like, no, I'm not signing this. And I'm like, okay, you know, after being like, okay, that's a problem a day later, like, okay, no problem. You don't have to sign it. So I think people should always feel empowered to push back on that. And while of course we want to protect

you know, rights related to our core products, intellectual property resources, we have the same flexibility and many of our engineers as well have, you know, worked on their own projects and two of them actually left and, know, good, the good attrition to have to work on their own endeavors elsewhere with it. So that, you know, as a founder from a founder perspective, as well as an employee perspective, should always be looked as a prideful events versus something that's like an offense or like, Hey, that's a conflict with, you know, working for a company with it. And if they do make a stink about it, it's probably red flag of not to work for the company.

Yeah, it's really interesting because it's, you know, on the one hand, companies want the kind of, they want the longevity, they want to kind of do invest in their people, they want to see them succeed. But then also, as a story kind of bringing people in, it's like, well, look at our alumni. Look at what they went and did. Which is great. That's what you want. It's, a very short term and ignorant opinion to say that that's in conflict with like hiring the best and brightest people and therefore, you know, outputting the best products a company can. That's awesome. Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 21:01

And in terms of, you know, the Kickstarter campaign, did you did all that yourself in terms of kind of setting it all up? Or did you have some support there? In terms of kind of marketing experts? Yeah, we always did everything ourselves with Kickstarter outside of on occasion with help with that pay per click ads, specifically with it. But another one just like design and you know, extrapolate design to both content creation, like those are muscles in this day and age, you just need to have on your team, right? It's like any

It's, it's always easy. And I have a lot of these conversations and try to be very generous and flexible at time, just cause I know how valuable it was for me. If someone reaches out and LinkedIn, I'm generally always open to helping them when they're personal endeavors with it. think that's important to give back to the community. But a lot of the conversations are from people. like, yeah, I don't know if I want to be on camera. I want to do it. Like, can I outsource it to someone? And that's, you know, the idea here is not that it's always comfortable. And there are a lot of things I post and, know, between LinkedIn and social media that

when you first start doing it, like, this cringy? Do I want to do it? But it's just the gift that keeps giving. One of the most valuable things we've done, and not everything we've done is deliberate. I could speak now after five years of experience, but at the time was like deliberate. It's like, this is exactly what's going to happen. You don't know sometimes, right? That's part of entrepreneurship. You take risks. yeah, all super beneficial and really a muscle that any team.

really needs to have right if you can't make content and you don't appreciate design like you're just shooting yourself in the foot with it and again it's okay if you like one of the founding engineers or like other founders like does it but if it's not a core part of your leadership team early on as startup like you're throwing away money or throwing away potential for a company it doesn't matter what industry what space and my go-to example always is that there's an account on TikTok with five million followers of a company in Minnesota that fills up pools with chlorinated water that's all they do with it right so just kind of

Highlights that a lot of people are easy to be like, well, it work for our space or about like any company B2B B2C D2C can make engaging and interesting content. But people like to use it as an excuse of like, yeah, I don't know if it would work for my space with it. I prompt every space benefits from once we have content creation. So but a lot of people just think they can justify themselves like, yeah, that only works for recon because I have a tape, you know, but again, could have said the same thing five years ago of like you only have a boring tape measure and you're going to make videos again.

Chris Whyte (: 23:17

300 million views with them like good luck with that, right? But now I've done it several times and have the credibility to back it up only after five years. So again, easy to say like, always believes in it. at the time people and just seems to be many conversations I have of like around board and ask like, hey Chris, most requests I get are like how to do a crowdfunding or how to make content creation. like always results like, yeah, I don't know if it'll work for us with it when a lot of times it would if they just have that consistency to stick with it for a period of time.

I think that's the thing a lot of people kind of they hear kind of social media, LinkedIn, YouTube podcast, and they kind of they kind of give it a go. And when they don't see those instant kind of results or gratification, then clearly that's not right for our market or our business. But I've seen it personally from from my business, you know, I've been posting consistently kind of three to five times a week on LinkedIn for the last 18 months, and I get

people today kind of reach out to me because of stuff I posted last year. you get people that don't ever engage with your stuff. But then they'll come up to a conference. It's always linked in with that. Yeah, people exist in this shed. It's very specific and realizing that normal tik tok Instagram is much different than LinkedIn, where very much it's much more concentrated, obviously relevant to your audience. And a lot the vast majority of people live in the shadows and they only reveal themselves when they

want something when they want to connect or you meet them at a conference, which is fine. And that's the point of I guess that consistency with that that sticks out. And as you know, only like, whatever 2 % of people actually consistently post on LinkedIn. So it's a lot easier to make your voice loudest in the space. So easy. And I think a lot of people get hung up on impressions and likes and stuff. the is, you know, even if you get 100 likes, you know, on a post on LinkedIn, 100 impressions, you know, that's 100 people have seen your stuff. How often do you stand up in front of 100 people?

and tell them about a of conversations at a trade show or speaking for to get that level of engagement. Very husky voice, isn't it after kind of those conversations? But yeah, I think it's consistency is key and credibility and authenticity. And I think what I love about your story is that you've been doing that from kind of from high school, which sounds like you know, kind of building up those stories so that, you know, even putting yourself out your comfort zone, you're already at a place of kind of

Chris Whyte (: 25:35

relative comfort compared to other people going in from scratch. And then so going into a kickstart where it's all about storytelling, you know, to get people to part with their cash for a promise that they might get something, which is still a wild concept, know, having done it four or five times, it's still a wild kickstart is a wild concept that people will give you money for give you as a company, basically an interest free risk free loan for an indeterminate period of time for maybe getting a product slightly before

others do with it. So remarkable concept, but one that I think kickstart is now raised $8.2 billion for startup companies. just remarkable process. It's fantastic. Yeah. And so yeah, yeah, I anyone anyone listening that's that's young and ambitious and thinking about launching a product, they need to get into the content that storytelling and maybe leverage platforms like Kickstarter.

That was not that I have a regret from doing it, but I think that's something that I think would have benefited me to do in either probably wouldn't have been feasible in high school. Yeah, I don't think it even existed in high school at the time. But for college, like launching a Kickstarter, I think would have gone even if something simple like I'm to make 50 of a product by hand artisanally, but it's going to get me in the mindset of making a product, getting it to customers, making feedback, telling the story. think that's something I went and don't know if it would have been practical. But again, advice for others like Kickstarter is a really way to put

put your hands and chips on the table and actually get something, ship it out, and just go through the full process with it. So that's a very easy way to validate, something that a lot of people like to push off with it. But it's good. did a test run before going to the big show four years later with it on Kickstarter, and that was very valuable endeavor to undertake. That's awesome. Brilliant. So yeah, Recon's been going, what, five years now?

Yeah, we're in June, aren't we? yeah, it's your kind of five year anniversary. you've built your community, you've scaled production, you've launched a bunch of products with the Boulder Pro more recently, think. Is that what we've got here? This is a new tape measure. So the Boulder Pro is a software platform that connects all together. And this is our latest digital tape measure. Awesome. Cool. So what's been the hardest part about scaling?

Chris Whyte (: 27:56

scaling the business and scaling physical products. Yeah, everything about hardware, especially now doing both. And we've done both. have several pieces of software platform, but you kind of get spoiled of how easy it is to ship software. software has its challenges. It's not to say that it's easy in a grand sense, but in a relative sense of hardware, it pales in changing one color on the packaging is a 20 email, four week exchange. And the best case in several thousand dollars of either tooling samples, DHL shipping from

wherever you're making it with it. So hardware in general is hard. And now after 15 years of making products, it never gets easier. You just have a little bit more understanding of what could go wrong and how to deal with it. But that doesn't make it any less painful or any less suffering with it. Hardware development is a muscle activity. You just have to muscle through it. It never gets easier. There's not a magic software solution or thing you could do or process that's going to make it easy. It'll make it more predictable. But a lot of times, it's kind of...

weird to say like that will just bring you to the baseline, the parlor course. If you have all those processes, it will ensure you will ship a product with it. It doesn't guarantee it'll be on time. It'll be to the perfect quality on day one with it. But I think that's the kind of hard, hard revelation you have at some point with it that you think you could, oh, we're to make a process and eventually crank it out. But the thing, unless you're making blenders, like it's not going to happen, right? Unless you make something so commoditized and predictable that has a slightly different design on it, it's not going to be a straightforward process.

to deal with it. And so I think that on the engineering side and then on the our side, a lot of it, at least for us now, and I think in general is really just the continued go to market size with it, right? Like we've had a lot of success. have, you know, an eight figure revenue company, several hundred thousand of these in the field with it. But to get to that level and how we're treating is always like we're shooting for the stars. We're not going to be complacent. And there have been many phases and continue to be places where we could sustain this and be very profitable for the rest of our lives. So soup it up and then

get to be acquired by a tool company, private equity company, move on with it. Where for us, we're still, until it becomes not interesting or not engaging, we're going to go to the races with it. So I think we're at the phase now where our biggest challenge as a company, and I think many organizations reach this, we are in the marketing funnel that if someone's looking for a digital tape measure, they're 95 % of the time going to buy a recon product. There's no doubt on that. We own completely and totally own that market. anyone's welcome to do their own research, but all roads.

Chris Whyte (: 30:13

leads a recon, the more lucrative one is how do you get into the minds of the tens of millions of people each year who buy conventional tape measure and tell them that this is a better, more efficient, less error prone way to capture something they do every day on a continual basis with one of our products and software solutions with it. So I think that's the bigger challenge and really a multifaceted solution, right? How do we make products, price points, feature variations that appeal to these people?

first modern tape measure in: 1963

you know, passion and energy and a lot of times pride to overcome, can look through our social media and get a pretty good aggregate of what people think of the products. But a lot of times it's a prideful event. I don't need a digital tape measure to tell me what to read where that's not the real, the real feature. is salute solving is like I'm taking out three very error prone steps in a normal process. That's repeated tens of times a day, which is looking at a tape measure, writing down a measurement, and then typing it into a spreadsheet or order form or whatever else on the back end with it. So

overcoming that and creating a machine that's able to address that with everything case studies emails and just make that a very systematic process is how we go from being a, you know, moderately successful tool company to, you know, Herculean technology company that's, you know, disrupting a, you know, multi bajillion dollar space of construction with it. So what's still to figure out some leads, some things to continue on, but still not, you know, fully apparent what the solution is to solve that. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating. Really, I mean, it's not just

So it's not just a tool that's accurate in terms of the reading that it's given you. It's pushing that accuracy down the supply chain as well in terms of- And that was a unique insight to this space. think two junctions we had at Recon that I think led to success is one, realizing, I think, you said as well, for a tool to be useful in my trade show trick, I don't want to damage something here, is people say, hey, is this tough, though? I'll just throw it on the concrete. It can be broken, but it's very difficult to deal with it. But I think-

Chris Whyte (: 32:34

you know, very early on, we realized that it had to have the, you know, both functionally and appearance wise, the durability of a DeWalt Milwaukee Makita Festool product with, still slipping in the technology with it, where there's a big graveyard of products that had one or the other with it, a lot of durability, but no innovation whatsoever, which basically describes every major tool company. And then on the other side, gadgets, things that look like they belong next to an Apple computer in a kitchen, hanging up a picture frame, which is really

counter to what a good tool needs to do with it. So I think that was the first set of something that we executed on very well with the M1. And then to further that realizing that if you just have tools, that's a point solution versus if you want to replace a workflow, you need to offer a complete offering with it. So we have tons of software. There are five different ways you can pull data off of this. I think having a very robust, documented and just a...

s of: 1000

accessibility was a big design here. So our previous, our first digital tape measure was good. We've sold many, many of them. They're useful and set the stage and a lot of our internal learnings, but for $250 and being probably 2.5 times the size of this, was very unapproachable for someone who wasn't fully ready to commit to it. So I think this was our new series comes in a 16, five meter and a 7.6 meter, 25 foot versions as well with it. And I think all those are

much more oriented to get the casual person to try out digital and then over time view the benefits of it and have them grow into the process versus have to dump them all at once is usually recipe for disaster in the construction space, which is a little bit slower moving to where and rightfully so sometimes to adopt new workflows. Yeah, $100 it seems like a very reasonable kind of investment, especially for a professional where it pays for itself very quickly pays for itself. You know, that that's something we have to work on better of expressing as well as like where all these smaller again, it's a lot of the

Chris Whyte (: 34:49

you know, the minutes add up to hours. In this case, a lot of very small errors add up to hundreds of dollars wasted over a month. So this becomes a very small investment relatively to eliminate most of them. Absolutely. Yeah, especially in a construction site. Where does it measure from then? So it could either measure from the front or the back surface. So the front would be a more standard conventional just trying to measure between two surfaces or inside if I'm doing like a cabinet or doorway or something with it. So

Pretty flexible how it does there and then anytime measurement is saved it sent over Bluetooth and that's when you can start to put it into external software applications that either we make or that companies themselves have for organizing their jobs. did. That's really cool. it? Feels lighter than I expected as well. It's got a good weight to it, but it's you know, you you wouldn't mind that on you on your belt or go. No, it's pretty I mean, again, I think people don't realize that even a conventional tape measure for every

if you have a 25 foot tape measure blade and 25 foot spring inside of it. So literally, it's just like a block of steel in it. why tape measures are heavy. until carbon fiber maybe becomes more accessible, they're going to be continually a heavier asset that you carry. It's reassuring, though, if it's for a tool to be heavy. feel it's well made. It's solid. It's got character to it. Awesome. So how do you?

you know, obviously, you're a fan, now you still you're an engineer, you still got a passion about it. But then you've got the social media side of things, the marketing hat as well. And you're a leader as well of a team. So how do you divide kind of and you've got a co founder, how do you divide and kind of all those those kind of roles between yourself and your co founder and kind of? Yeah, all the different hats. I think at a high level, and we can zoom down a little bit doing myself and cost us my co founder and CTO.

of the company that costs us is a lot more focused on the engineering, manufacturing, and R &D of our products with it. We're all focused more on product operations, business, and design side of things, but with a lot of overlap between it. They're not independent functions. We both understand and appreciate each other's work, some where I have an actual degree and past experience in it, where on the other side, we're both learning all these other things for the first time at Recon with it.

Chris Whyte (: 37:00

I think that's in picking a good co-founder is great and something that we had been very friendly over the five or so years we worked together at Formlabs and has worked out I think remarkably well for a co-founder that there's never been any issues whatsoever of like responsibilities. It's just always clear and always the same goal and same passion about what we're solving with it. So that's been great and just one less thing to worry about if you have a co-founder that that doesn't work out on. So that's great. Subsequent to that, I think.

Again, and I've thought about this before as well, that a lot of people think and spend too much time brainstorming these grand initiatives where everything, doesn't matter how big and what the culmination of it is, it's just a process of everyday chipping away at it. And I think that's something I've been able to do very effectively that growing a TikTok account to a million followers was a result of spending 20 minutes every day for five years making a fun video with it. people have this idea of like, we're going to do a month sprint and that's going to go and it never works out. Right. And you get distracted where

because I have to do everything from marketing, business, you just have to each week decide what are the biggest things you're trying to accomplish and what are the more granular goals that help you get there with it. And very often I'm surprised that they're not sprints, they're not grand and maybe in a localized period, but they're all milestones that culminate in these grander initiatives with it of making a new product to a marketing campaign or a Kickstarter. It's just a process of like, we're going to take 20 photos each week. I'm going to...

Right, one LinkedIn post a day, make one video a day, make one blog post every week with it. And again, in the time you're like, wow, this is just a very small piece of the bigger puzzle. But then you look back after a year and you have a fully populated website, social media account, LinkedIn page, sale, know, B2B sales opportunities with it. So it's a lot of distilling larger goals into things that quantifiable and really just sticking to it. Too many people just try for a little bit, say this isn't working, goes away. then...

you look back after a year and nothing was accomplished just because every week you're scrambling in a completely new direction versus making smaller steps to progress towards dual as you know, absolutely non conflict with a lot of what I do is like, what are our 100x goals, but those can be distilled to things that can be accomplished in a week, even if it takes a year to realize with it. So it's not at odds with border goals, but it's just more practical way to achieve them then have to be lost in the space of, you know, hitting home runs every day. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's, there's little kind of

Chris Whyte (: 39:16

activities like 2030 minutes a day kind of creating content. You know, you build up a library of stuff as well. Very quickly. So and you know, there's no harm in repurposing kind of old content that we do and just repurpose it useful for ads and blog posts we do. So we have a lightroom with 10s of 1000s of photos that we accumulate broken down by product we have

digital asset management system that has all of our videos in it, which was a more recent one, just because it became more than me just working on the projects with it. But having a content library is a gift that keeps giving with it. Then when you make a new project, it's just a matter of putting it together versus have to be like, all right, we have to go film this. have, especially for us where we want to, all of our scenes are very deliberate about their on job sites. And we have some ways to simulate this in the office, but it's not like as simple as just like taking a screenshot on a computer. want like sawdust to be in the air, sparks flying, and that's not something you can just.

wave your wand and do it's something that we have opportunities to do and definitely, you know, a site visit is an action packed session of taking content, getting user feedback, trying out new products with it and trying to do that all in a two hour period while being safe and respectful of the, you know, customers times who are letting us on their sites. Sounds awesome. Sounds like a lot of fun as well, which you know, lot of people forget to have when they're trying to something serious, but you can still gonna have fun along the way. fantastic. So

Talking about job sites. So you mentioned, obviously, products are for real world use, not just for kind of creating these artificial videos. So what do you think is different about designing for trades versus traditional consumer retail? Yeah, I think it's hard because, like I said, it's really a balance of like, we're not technology adverse. Like, obviously, our products are based on technology, but you have to be able to, frankly, beat the shit out of them, right? You have to be able to throw it around.

drop tested, beat it up and how to both communicate that and create the design language to do that. But being respectful of like our items have buttons on them. They have screens with them, lasers, rechargeable batteries. So things that are not as accustomed to the space. I think, like any good designer, there's the check mark of like, is someone a good designer? It's silly to say, but there are a lot of people just not. They may have degrees, worked at companies, but they're not good. They don't understand good versus bad design. So that check mark is hit. The next one is can they

Chris Whyte (: 41:34

capture the essence of a brand. And that doesn't mean just like the brand language, but do they understand what we're trying to do as a brand and what are these collective goals that we're trying to achieve with it? And then the third one after that is in how do you combine this all together and take the aspects of toughness to survive a job site and durability with it where toughness is both an aesthetic appearance as well as functional appearance and combine those all together with the manufacturability, the cost implications with it. So it is a very involved and complicated process and why it's so remarkable. We have the designers we do and they're great. We have a team of three.

full-time designers across graphic, UX, and industrial design, but they're extremely hard to find with it. And it's really, when you find them, it's the best, and we want to keep them forever with it and let them grow and expand their careers. But it's very, very difficult to find people who have that ability to merge all those items together to make good output with it. Sometimes they have one, and it has no correlation if, where someone went to school, what companies they work. And a lot of times, bigger companies are kind of worse, right? And I think this was the...

humane AI example of the pin of Apple pedigree. But when you're in a room and subsidized by all that fire powered infinite resources, you make bad startup decisions where you need to be scrappy and sometimes more concerned with an MVP progression to a product versus like Apple's the only company in the world where designers say something and manufacturing figures out a way to do it. That doesn't work at any other company in the universe. No, it's same. Yeah, obviously not. There's anything wrong with the crew at Apple, but it's a very different career. Yeah. So, you know,

And it's the same within the UK with places like Dyson, know, great reputation, great brands, but in terms of the actual working practices, very, very different to a lot of other consumer brands. different coming into an award winning room and like, yes, you're probably a good designer to be there with it. But that's a much different muscle than establishing a brand from scratch with it. And this is another revelation that I had post college, and I did the same thing, interview at Apple, be like, wow, cool to work there and know how

diff radically different my career and understanding would be working on a company like Apple and good diversifying maybe good to have on a cycle but a startup is where the real you really earn your stones as a designer and like you know badges because you're the one who's on the hot seat versus like subsidize in a room and like just propped up by the environment around you. absolutely. I think yeah, a lot of people can get kind of pulled in by the kind of the flashy lights and the brand and then end up kind of stuck.

Chris Whyte (: 43:55

the siloed into a color, this is this is a role and now you're the expert in this particular technology, which then, you know, when there's a an economic event or there's layoffs, you know, it can then become really tricky for them to find something else because a lot of companies, especially small companies, want people to have broader experience and able to just throw themselves at without needing a full team to do core functions with it. Absolutely. But they're really interesting. So

We've talked about storytelling community. But yeah, has storytelling helped you kind of earn trust faster or open up kind of partnerships? absolutely. I mean, it's a gift that keeps giving, right? From the, I guess the two types of con or two main types of what we social content we make is between LinkedIn, which is more...

B2B focused and you know social content, is just top of funnel like get awareness with it. But even you know lot of B2B connections like hey I saw you talking about your tape measure on Instagram and just getting what is effectively a free 20 to 40 million views a month of our content and really establish it as what we're trying to do which is the inception of like digital is a standard you know a diamond ring is forever like we want to make digital tape measures are the standard if you're using something else you're old you're a dinosaur with it so you do that through repetition and get into the background with it and when we

First start from everything going on job sites, getting people to test it. You have a random dude during COVID would be like, Hey, is it cool if I come on your job site? Where now we have blue badge recon million followers. Like, Hey, is it cool if we send you some products and get your feedback on them? So it just helps add a lot of people looking at our pride. Like, Oh, this is a random Chinese brands. Like, Oh no, they're based in Boston. They have a million. Oh wow. That's great. have, there's outside in total social media. have the most followers of any tool company. And then on Instagram only Dewalt and Milwaukee have more followers than us. Again.

somewhat vanity metrics, but just shows the credibility we've been able to establish of like who we're rolling with and just the idea that they get that because they're $14 billion companies and they sell everywhere. We did it because we put the muscle into making great social content for five years consistently with it. So yeah, it's absolutely the gift that keeps giving and adds an immense amount of street credit to our products and you know, various points in the funnel. Sometimes it's top level awareness. Sometimes it's like, this seems interesting. Let me check them out on TikTok social and you just see.

Chris Whyte (: 46:14

you know, all roads lead to recon, whether you're on Google chat, GPT, you know, we've been very deliberate about making that funnel work to theirs with it. So when we figure out the top part and like, wow, digital tape measures are key. All roads will lead back to recon versus that have to be a new activity and compete with others trying to do it and something that we grew up doing. So we completely live it and something that we're solely focused on with it versus a larger company may have to diversify it and realizing that it's not just a

hardware, it's an entire ecosystem that's built around it from the content side as well as the functional and product side of things. I love it. Well, what do you think has been, what's been the most surprising thing that's come of kind of the content strategy, whether it be a win or just something completely unexpected? Yeah, I mean, it's just the gift that keeps giving. mean, know, ESPN has reposted our, you know, a tape measure video that's gone viral with it. We've had

all sorts of influencers well outside of the construction space reach out and be like, Hey, can you send me, one of these tape measures? I'd love to feature it on my, you know, story from the celebrity side of things. We've had, you know, professional hockey and football players come to the office and just want to see the products with it. So I think there's a lot of, you know, reach and just, especially in the U S of just how applicable DIY is with that, that people appreciate it and see that it's very stagnant space and something like this sticks out in a very cool way. That's like, wow, it still looks durable, but

cool, there's a screen on it, it has a laser with it. Like, wow, that's pretty sweet. So just like holding it and seeing it in person has been a great way to close the loop. then very similar on LinkedIn as well, which is something to, I didn't really start until like mid January of this year posting consistently is just the gift that keeps giving, right? Like every conference I go to, every says like, Hey, Christian, I saw you did this on LinkedIn or any conversation starts with like something that I did that is only visible because I posted it on LinkedIn with it. And also

Help to you again, being a self-funding company, it does help promote a little bit of accountability for myself. Like we don't have a, you know, board of directors or external investors. So it does help keep you a little more accountable and you know, the perceived or reality that other people are looking at what you're doing. So it does keep you a bit more, you know, disciplined about, you know, posting wins, losses, and just trying to, you know, I think it is a skill in itself of sharing wins and losses in a public environment with it. Not to say that's for everyone, but I think that's been a helpful.

Chris Whyte (: 48:29

way to keep us accountable to our goals and when things aren't going well, knowing that others may be watching and like, how do we get out of the hole or issue we're dealing with? I think it just makes you more of a person and more approachable, doesn't it? To be kind of, if you're authentic on LinkedIn and, know, I think there's a bit of cynicism that goes around when it's all success stories and it's a bit show.

show is successful thought leadership, right? Like we're, I think we're really disciplined about talking about things we're actually doing, not like notionally like, you know, I think this is gonna cause LinkedIn is full of AI trash content as well as just like generated, not thought provoking. really sticking and being disciplined about things we're doing and thinking about it. Yeah. Being vulnerable in a place and putting a face to a brand that, you we're passionate about this. This is, if you make a product, this is who you're competing with people who live and breathe this every single day with it. maybe it's a warning to others who would.

get involved in a space that will put our own efforts into making it work. yeah, it's interesting because you see the business, you're still very much involved in the day to day but had is the business was much bigger, you know, and, you know, loses identity, doesn't it if you're too too far removed from the product and the marketing and you're outsourced, it doesn't have the same impact.

I think it's all culture based, right? I mean, know plenty of large companies who have hundreds of employees and the founder is still the de facto head of marketing or not that I'm the head of marketing, but you know, it's where you want to choose your energy and what the culture is made with it. There's always a way to sustain that. know, I think that's the, there are always challenges as a startup, having one to 50 people is different than 50 to 200, which is different than 200 to a thousand. So they're just different challenges. And that's when you have to start.

instilling your culture, not only individual contributors, but managers, directors, vice presidents and everything. So that's a challenge we'll have to cross when we go on, but certainly not something that will, you know, limit us at that point, just a new opportunity for us to figure out a process that works. you got your kind of

Chris Whyte (: 50:26

have got individuals in your team that are also producing content on their own kind of personal feeds? A lot of our designers started to do that. And I've encouraged people to do it as well, just because I think it's it's immensely helpful for personal, even if you have no aspirations being an entrepreneur, it just helps like establish oneself and you know, what used to be back like back in the day, like hack a day or instructables. And I several of those well back in the day as well. And those were ways for me to grow myself as an inventor at the time of making these fun gadgets. I posted tutorials about how to make them with it and got some

recognition, one of them got in like popular mechanics or something. So early ways to do it. And you know, why is content back to the first thing, you know, the blog, right, the blog I made got me into school. So it was credibility. And I just kept that philosophy and, know, different forms just kept expanding. And now it's something we leverage to grow the business regularly. That's cool. And you Yeah, you're encouraging a little kind of army of content generators as well. So it's absolutely. That's fantastic.

kind of loop back a little bit on the team side of things. How do you spot kind of talent that will, you know, thrive in the kind of the startup chaos or the kind of the scaling kind of chaos that you're in now? Yeah, it's everyone likes to say they want to work at a startup until it actually comes time with us. That's something we go pretty deep on. But that's pretty universal by people, I think. But for designer, the first thing we look at is outside projects. If they have outside projects, it shows that whether maintaining a full time job or a

Alright.

college education that they're working on more diverse projects than just what's specified to them. So that's the first part and that's usually represent a portfolio. So that's the first step and then we'll grill them on decisions they made. Why did they understand what they were doing? Do they think about alternatives? Why did they choose this color? And good designers can explain that where others kind of, know, orange is bright or something with it. that's the first step. And then second, we do have a design challenge. So this is something that not controversial, but something again, we have.

Chris Whyte (: 52:20

done many things that others frown upon of like, have never been worked from home and we're always, every single role has some kind of take-home challenge. And my argument for this is like, A, if you're not willing to spend eight hours or so working on this, something about a startup is not going to be right for you with it. So that's a great, the people who say no almost certainly would not have been great to work at a startup because they would have been so protective of their time, which is totally fine. It's just not a place the startup is about the company and like the learnings and growing and.

you know, the equity that can be worth something in the future. So if that's not a vibe for you, then you're just not a vibe here with it. So that's been super helpful. And honestly, it works out in my mind in candidates favors, there were interns and full-time hires that we would have passed on their portfolio is okay. And we're like, let's throw them a take home and they knocked they did an incredible take home. that that's what got two out of the three designers, I think got the job because of their take home with it. So it's a filter as way for people who are lacking experience to come in and go out as well as

with more senior people, you sometimes wonder like, were you just in the room for this? Or were you the one actually who drove it forward and came up? Because you just say I came up with this? Well, did you? Or was it someone else who did it? And you just subsidize it or finished it or started it. So that's sometimes hard to decipher until you really grill into it in more detail. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, that attitude and the kind of the commitment to just kind of go all in. It's very difficult to test. But you've got a good test there.

Fantastic. We're gonna wrap up in a few moments. But perhaps you could talk about kind of what you're excited about coming up what's next on the kind of the roadmap that you're able to talk about over the next 12 months. And that you kind of really excited about. Yeah, I think both externally is that now very short. So these are about to ship or just manufacturing them now. So should ship in about two months. I think this is the

First opportunity, we have a general purpose tool at the right price point that can get into people's hands and honestly has a much better shot of getting a foothold in retail where $100, that can be an impulse buy purchase versus 250, I don't know, for a tape measure. So I think getting that into the mainstream is really the first goal. The second is how much, you know, we had a more consumer app that we had before and we just Boulder Pro as our professional software platform and that's led to a lot of...

Chris Whyte (: 54:36

really interesting conversations and B2B use cases of people who are passionate of like, if we can make this work on this team of five, we'll scale it to our team of 500 with it. And that's, you I think a lot of this was happening, but it was a lot more disconnected from us, the people who buy the tape measures and figure it out for themselves with now inserting this and open API into the process. People are coming to us and working with us to collaborate and discuss workflows, which is great. So we're getting customer discovery, we're getting feedback with it. And I think that's a...

Great ones. Those are really the biggest ones of we have the dry powder, but we need to figure out a way to light it off with it. then going forward, long roadmap. think on the hardware side, we have a lot of similar accessible products and how to get those manufactured out to the environment. And then on the side of software side, I think it's adding content. How do we leverage?

you know, new sensors, computer vision, you know, if the, Meta Ray band equipped, which, you know, I think took everyone by surprise of like not the Apple vision pro, but the Meta Ray bands. you can make that mainstream, what implications does that have here for adding context to measurements? If I just took 20 measurements on this wall with computer vision, could we decide that like, that one's from the outlet, that one's from the ceiling. So this is where you start to use the.

the buzzwords machine learning AI computer vision, but really able to do something that just is orders the magnitude better than now with it. So not only are you sending measurements, but I'm also automatically generating context just by looking at something and taking a measurement with it. So I think that's the, you know, two to four year plan, but dependent on a lot of, you know, figuring out what is the next iPhone or standard way to do it. And then for us to develop the software to integrate that into the process. That's awesome. That's really exciting. And it's

Yeah, it's one of the few conversations I've had where people have mentioned AI in a positive way as well. It's because it's quite scary, isn't it? the minute. It's great. It's like any I think too many people think it's going to replace it just augments and makes things better with it. We know that the foundation we're building now is needed no matter what an AI is a tool we use internally, even as design designers love. It's been a great way to make UX mockups of prototypes, generate, you know, even like make, try all these textures out on here or something with it. So it's something that

Chris Whyte (: 56:46

It makes exceptional designers even faster and better. It doesn't make a bad designer, a good designer, or a good designer above average. takes exceptional designers and makes them even more effective with their time with it. It's what we found on our side with it. if you're scared of it, it probably, to be frank, just means you're not a good designer. It's not something that, it's never going to replace an exceptional design, never. It just doesn't have that creativity and is beyond our computational abilities for now with it. So I think the fear is for people who are in that middle ground where they're like, oh, if my full-time job is just,

making renders or animations. Yes, it's a real possibility that AI could totally replace that a couple of years with it. And you should be concerned, guess. You're going to do something about it now. Awesome. Final question. this is a question that I used to ask at the end of every podcast. And I got told off by Jordan last night for not asking it. But any book recommendations? What are you into at the moment, or podcasts? Yeah. I don't listen to books or podcasts for the most part. I do.

For me, again, social media is a great way to connect. I think just, you know, for better or worse, like brain rotting with TikTok, but it does provide a very quick way to see a large diversity of things. We find new products, new content ideas, new, you know, people reiterating maybe what they read in a book and talking about it there. But that's just a very quick and fast way for me to get content on it that I've never had the attention span to read a book or sit down and listen to a podcast with I just don't don't have the attention span to do that with it. That's more of a

personal one with it, but I do quite a bit of, like a lot of my day is spent reading the news, Wikipedia articles, but it's like, how do I distill information to two to four minutes? And again, back to AI has been great for distill. Even, we have insights on our own. I'll dump 10,000 customer conversations, chats, and UBT and say, summarize and spend time reading that with it. Or if I find a good video pod, I'll say, summarize the key points for it. And then if there are ones that are interesting, I'll listen to that segment with it. So I think that's been a great filter for helping me.

and not blindly trust what it's doing, but aggregate information, point out the areas to look at more in and explore those has been great for whatever chat, GPT, Claude, Gemini, you use with it. Something I've really enjoyed doing of getting more distilled information and having more conversations because you can talk to it too. And you say, Hey, what about this? if they, any, all the hypothetical things talk about like, know, World War II battles, like what if this had happened instead? It's like based on this.

Chris Whyte (: 59:05

really enjoyed those conversations. But yeah, never never had the discipline to sit down and read a book outside of high school and college. that's cool. No, I enjoyed where that went though, in terms of the you know, AI to basically give you a too long didn't read kind of summary. summary and just look at interest area, pull out the interesting insights. And then you now they all link them to try to try more sources and just go there and you follow that kind of like the same Wikipedia, click the blue links until you find their whole of what you're looking for. Amazing.

Christian, it's been fantastic having you on the show. Thank you for making the trip down here and sharing your story with us. Yeah, if people like reach out, obviously, you're the social media guy. So LinkedIn is probably a good place. LinkedIn, anywhere you search for recon tools, all roads lead back to me or someone involved at the company with it. So certainly intimate enough to see that but anywhere, Google, social media, whatever search for recon tools, and you're bound to find something from us. Awesome. Brilliant.

Thank you very much. Cool. Thank you, Chris. Appreciate it. How was that for you, Good. Yeah. I'll stop recording now. That was good.

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