Have you ever wondered what an intensive audit with a business strategist might look like? Is it like coaching? Or does it feel like therapy? Today, I'm giving you an exclusive peek behind the curtain in a live business audit. Emma Parker, a wedding and lifestyle photographer based in St. Louis has been vulnerable enough to sit down with me and open up about her business. 

It’s not often that entrepreneurs are willing to be transparent with numbers and go deep on their “why” beyond on Instagram post. So I want you all to head over to Emma’s Instagram after you listen to this show and give her some love! Because Emma was full of astute observations and deep knowledge about her business and the particular blocks she has encountered along the way. 

Pull up a chair, because today, you’re getting a front row seat to a conversation that will serve as a catalyst for huge growth. Sometimes, what we desperately need is a mirror. And my framework as a business strategy is really rooted in allowing yourself to hear and connect to your own values. Once you know what you stand for, we work together to inspire action that will propel you to move accordingly. 

In this episode, we discuss: 

• A core issue:  inquiries ghosting Emma time and time again
• A collaborative process to get Emma to root into her “why”
• Bringing more of Emma into her messaging to stand out from the crowd 
• Demystifying the copywriting element of content creation 

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Check out the shownotes for more resources here

Mentioned in this episode:

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The Business Conservatory Program

Check out The Foundations Program!

JOIN THE MEMBERSHIP THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO ENJOY MARKETING YOUR BUSINESS WITHOUT SELLING YOUR SOUL.

The Business Conservatory Program

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Today's episode is going to be so much fun. We spent like a half an hour before this episode even started just shooting the breeze, so I can only imagine how fun it's gonna be for all of you to listen. I have the incredible, the talented.

Emma Parker here. Emma, thank you for being here.

Emma: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Ellie: Of course. This is gonna be so much fun. Really quick, I wanted to just before I dive into the purpose of this, I wanted to just give you the floor to introduce yourself, if that's okay? Yes, of course.

I'm based out of St. Louis, Missouri. I am a wedding and lifestyle photographer, really inspired by like connection and love. I also do Ouo with a good friend of mine, so empowering people and celebrating their seasons of life is really what lights me up. Yeah, so I've been doing this for seven years now, one year full time.

Ellie: It's hard to sum up a. Two short sentences. It's,

Emma: it's, that's what I do. I live in St. Louis with my husband and our five pets. We have the same middle and last name, and everything I do is inspired by that. So, yeah.

Ellie: Well, the purpose that we're doing this call today, just for all of you listening, is this is an intensive audit, so.

Is this like coaching? Is this like therapy? Part of the reason why I wanted to do these, and part of why I felt that it was so important was I wanted you guys to get a firsthand look about what this could be like for you. And so Emma was kind enough to let me literally look. Into the inner workings of her business.

Like, like she said, she's been doing this for seven years, so there's a lot to learn and a lot to kind of like understand about how she owns and operates her business. But more importantly, what I really want her to be able to walk away with is a complete roadmap and a complete clear idea of exactly what she needs to do with her business moving forward.

I would love

Emma: to just have a direction to go forward. I'm not afraid of or hesitant to spend time working on things I care about. It's just sometimes hard when you're your own boss to know what that looks like and what meaningful steps you could be taking to move along. Mm-hmm. Um, so just having a, a vision, like knowing what I need to do.

In a concrete way would be so much more helpful than just floating about as I

feel

Ellie: like I'm doing now. That makes total sense. So when you, when you say, you know, like needing a direction, you know what, what ha, what has been your reality the last few months in your business? Like what has that looked like that caused you to say, wow, I could really use a direction right now?

Ellie: Okay. And so you spent a lot of time working on these blogs. Tell me a little bit about social media. I think from what I remember, you said that Instagram was your number one referral source. Mm-hmm. And so it sounds like you kind of did like a, a temporary shift into really diving into blogging. How, how has that Instagram game gone for

Emma: you?

So Instagram and referrals from other clients are my two biggest that get people to me. I have that love hate relationship with social media that I think so many creatives have, where I just almost feel like it's less energizing the more I show up. So I struggle with that and I would love to have a consistent way for other people to find me that isn't reliant on me showing up every single day.

it

Ellie: takes time. 100%. And it's my understanding that in addition to all the blogging, you completely redid your website. Is that correct?

Emma: Yes. And that was a feat in and of itself, but that's a lot up she's up. And that's why web designers are expensive, because they're gifted and they know what to

Ellie: do. So you, you went waist deep into web design, you hired a web designer, you got that process kind of completed. What has that done, if anything, for your lead generation?

Emma: So I do think I've noticed a little bit of uptick because the website itself looks so much more professional than my previous one, just because my work has grown so much and my old website felt like it was more attached to the less, the less professional, serious side of me. If I were a client, I wouldn't wanna hire somebody who didn't put that effort in.

Ellie: good.

It does look good. I will say, I looked at it before this call. I, I really appreciated it and so thank you. So with, with that, how recently did you make that shift with the website? Like is it like hot off the press?

Emma: So, I bought a template, I built a template from a designer and I bought it in November and it took me through, I would say, Maybe was when it was live, it had the blogs or it's starting to accumulate that.

So it's pretty fresh in the last few months that it's been live.

Ellie: Okay. And then with, with inquiries, overall, how many inquiries do you get per month and how many of those inquiries do you book?

Some months I booked none, and then other months I'll book two in a week or something like that. So this past month I've booked two. Mm-hmm. Two months before that I hadn't booked any. In March I booked three, and so February, January booked none. So it's, it's that lack of stability I think that makes the business feel so chaotic because I don't know how to make that more consistent though.

I try to give like I. Breadth to the fact that it is a bit seasonal. Of course, like, you know, inquiries have their big waves in their smaller seasons, but it is less consistent than I feel like maybe other people are getting.

Ellie: Right. And so of the number of inquiries that you get per month, how many would you say like officially are like done?

Let's do it. We're hiring you versus how many like ghosts or how many are kind of like lost in the shuffle?

And then I would say probably 60% I never hear back from. And of those 20% who do have discovery calls with me, even some of like, um, a lot of those lately haven't been booking, and that's more rare than not. I'm used to speaking with people and kind of working out, but even in this past summer and spring, I've had a lot of people swap to go to other people that are cheaper or more budget

Ellie: friendly.

For me, I

Emma: had so many recently too, which is just like, I mean, and any kind of ghosting or when it doesn't work out, of course it hurts a little bit. I've even have recently several clients who will talk to me and ask me every available date I have within a three month time span. They'll have my investment guide, they'll send me emails for weeks, and at the last minute they'll swap to someone else.

Ooh, why didn't you talk to me? Like, if there was some kind of barrier. I just wish, like, I don't know how to, I don't, I don't know what the missing link is because I've, I've had people in hardships say like, we love you. We connect with your work. That's my dream client. And they'll say, but we just can't afford this, this amount, or whatever it is.

Like, I've worked with so many of those people that just really wanna have me, why are you running?

Ellie: You.

Emma: I, in every initial email will ask them to get on the phone with me. Every one, one, and a lot of a handful of people will fight it. They'll just be like, no, no, no, no. Like not. No. And I'll just say, you know, if you have questions, like, I'm happy to talk with you.

I try not to resist giving them the information, but I would say like, it's not my lack of trying. I'm like, let's talk, like, let's get coffee, let's hop on the phone. And, and it's very, I, I feel like sometimes so many people are shopping for a vendor that they don't want to, they don't wanna go too far with me if they're not gonna go with me.

And so I can tell when people are keeping me at a bit of a distance, if that makes

Ellie: sense. Yeah. And if you had to guess, like, if, if your life depended on you making the absolute best guess possible as to why that is, why do you feel like people are so nervous about making that connection with you?

And so I think people would rather, I think that less involved, there's so much, there's so much decision fatigue in picking a vendor for everything you need. I think the more, a lot of people on one hand really want to just have a easy-peasy and done, but I think other people, they don't wanna get their hopes up for something that wouldn't end up working out if they're inquiring with me knowing that there's a possibility they wouldn't be able to afford the package they want with me.

Mm-hmm. So I would say it's one or the other. Either they just don't want the issue of having a phone call or don't wanna dedicate the time more than they're already dedicating to weddings and the planning of it. Or they just don't wanna get their hopes up or mine by talking further.

Ellie: Yeah. So it's almost like, by the way, that was a very astute observation.

But like, I really appreciate that you really thoughtfully considered it from their point of view. And when you approach it that way, I feel like it's like infinity times easier to navigate that. And I, I really just love the way that you approached that. So, so with that in mind, do you have pricing on your website?

Do you have everything a hundred percent on a pricing guide? What's that look like? I have,

Emma: you know, the four major categories that I would consider myself good at. So, weddings, couples, family, and maternity. Each of those. On like once you kind of dig into that information, it'll show you the starting point for all of those packages.

Right? So it's there. There's also a bunch of frequently asked questions that I have available. My investment guide I purchased from a designer, a template. It is so beautiful and informative, like it looks good. I spent time on it. So there's like a plethora of information and I just sometimes wonder if they're just not taking it in because there is much.

They can look and at least see this is what we're starting at and going from there.

Yeah. Connect the dots in terms of that, is that indicating to you? That there either needs to be more trans price transparency or does that indicate to you that there could be another factor at play here? I think the other

Emma: factor she's in the room with us now is my feel that I'm not worth the money I'm charging, even though I know it's a reasonable price.

Mm-hmm. And so my, I think maybe I project that my, my fear is you're not gonna think I'm worth this and therefore I have to make sure that I'm worth this to you. And when they leave for some other person that's cheaper, I'm immediately like, yeah, they didn't think I was worth this. I think that is a big factor in how I feel about it, is like, I'm.

Like it's not like that at all. But it's like, I could understand why somebody might wanna pick somebody else. So it's like, how do I differentiate myself without straying from myself and not showing up, honestly? And how do I still hold true to my value when people are choosing apart from me?

Ellie: Like, ugh.

It's a lot. This is the title of the episode, basically. Honest to goodness. Honest to goodness, if you didn't even say that, I was gonna bring that up today because that is something that not necessarily, you know, the girl that's in the room with you that's making you feel that way. But the idea of differentiation was something that I was wanting to talk about anyway too.

And you said that like in some way because she's in the room, that has like impacted you, but like in what other ways has that problem impacted you? Ooh,

Emma: I'm working on it, so I'll say that first. But there are definitely times where like, I will have strangers ask me for a discount and I'll be like, Sure what, like, I don't even know you, but I'm like,

Ellie: you're so

Emma: that, you know what I mean?

They did not book, they did not bite. They both messaged me yesterday asking if I had any available many sessions for the fall. First

Ellie: of all, how dare you

Emma: invest in this business? Okay. But it's just like I feel I'm such a tenderhearted person and I, I think what drives me the most in my business and in life is just like, Making space for people to have their own experiences and to feel the full array of their feelings.

It doesn't have to be you getting married or you like having a kid. Like this week I donated my photography to a local artist who created a book and has like done these little events to just promote that book. I've provided my services to them just because you worked really hard on something, you created something meaningful, and you deserve photos to remember that.

So like, they're so important to me and I want people to have them. Especially if they connect to my work. But I've always been the person that's like, I will provide for you before I ask for you to provide back for me. And then I run into times in my business where I'm like, okay, I can't afford to live, so we have to figure something out.

So it's just like, it's a cycle of just the person that I I'm and working with that and making her a business bitch. You know what I mean? Yes.

Emma: And what's so funny is I couldn't tell you them

Ellie: now. I couldn't be like that. That's why I wrote them down. I got you. I got you. I, and, and I knew, I knew because it's so hard for us when we're in this space where we're just like, I'm just trying to do this. I'm just trying to do this. I, I just wanted to be this, all those things are it.

So yes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help you make this tangible and we're going to completely differentiate you by allowing you to lean into all these things which are inherently you.

Emma: Cracks open, notebooks, cracks open the notebooks.

Ellie: So, so with this, I'll ask you one additional question before I give you those, and that is, what is it like working with you?

Emma: before I start any kind of session, like if we're in person and it's like our first session together, I always, always, always start with like the same spiel, which is my number one priority is your comfortability.

Because if you are comfortable with me, we're gonna create something that's authentic to you. So prior to that, I'll ask them, you know, what represents your relationship? I'll send them a questionnaire to learn a little bit more about them. So ideally the session is already unique to them, what we're doing, where we're at, et cetera.

Um, and then from there, like I typically try to start off very gently. I'll give them actions more than just like, you know, stand and stop. And then pretty soon from the jump, I love to show them an image of themselves because so many people are very nervous. And I always say the first five minutes are gonna be the worst part.

The rest of it, like, we're just gonna have fun. Like, we're just here to enjoy ourselves. And so I'll show them what I'm, you know, taking photos of what I'm seeing so that they can see, you know, whatever perception I have of myself isn't the same as this person who's witnessing me. So I just try to be very collaborative.

And so I'm pretty laid back in that way. We'll go through the session, um, however long it takes. I always overshoot, so I always tell them like, you tell me because I'll keep you forever. Um, and then you'll be stuck here and then, you know, we're dating yourself. Can't do that. And then, um, afterwards I'll come home, I'll send 'em a handful of previews just so they can kind of see what they're looking at.

I try to do multiple modalities, so like film digitals, um, disposables. Just like for more fun, I love to give variety. So I'll send them a handful of what we've done and then let them see it, chat back and forth through that. And then I'll do the complete gallery and present it to them in a few weeks time.

But me too. Yeah. But I really just want it to be a space for them to be seen and like let that be something that's exciting and not scary. So many people are so afraid to be seen. Like

Ellie: what? Yeah. Walk me through that. Why are they afraid to be seen? I think

Emma: like specifically in French press, like I'll speak to working with like vulnerable people in vulnerable, like clothing and environments.

And when we're working with people and being photographed is vulnerable, I get that it's an aesthetic. I get that Instagram and TikTok are huge and social media and photos are big, but letting someone see you and capturing them is so incredibly vulnerable. And

Ellie: so

Emma: when you're like saying, Hey, let me do this.

Let me see you and let me have it forever. When people aren't used to being seen or seeing themselves or caring for themselves or giving them space, one thing we always say to these people is, I'm introducing you to yourself. Like, let's remind you. There's so much more to you than maybe the part of you that doesn't feel attractive.

It's even as photographers, it's a lot to be seen. Yeah, it's a high death baby. They see it all, you know? And so to trust somebody with those photos, like that's, it's a big deal. So I try to honor it as a big deal.

Ellie: Oh, you're such a tender human. I can't even, so would you say that those people are like the people, like your sole people, like the people that genuinely need that guidance?

Emma: Yes. I always think the people who. Need that most find me because I, like, I lived so much of my twenties and teens as like a demon to myself. Like I've done the whole not being my own friend and just hoping that that would make me a better person. And it's just really not the way. And I think when you've walked that path so long, sharing it with others is freeing for you too.

So it's that battle, like that little

Ellie: war. A hundred percent. And so let me ask you this, so you. Everyone in the audience is totally like, just enthralled with you. Like I can tell because like it, the passion that you have for like helping these people is just like so tangible and so real and so evident.

So to challenge you in, in a loving way, you know, I'd love for you to pull up your homepage. Okay. Um, and I'd love for you to take a gander at your homepage and then in another tab I'd like you to also pull up your Instagram feed. Okay, here we go.

Ellie: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you about, well, however long you need really. And I'm gonna have you look mainly at your homepage, and I want you to see of all the things that you just described, how many times do you mention what you just shared with me anywhere on your homepage? And there's no right or wrong, it's just identifying.

Emma: Little teeny, tiny versions of it. You know what I mean? Like something I struggle with is the copy, like getting that, which let me tell you,

Ellie: let me humble myself.

Emma: I have an English degree with an emphasis in creative writing and I can't do my own copy. I'd be looking at it like, but honestly, it's, they're very, it's very small set, but it's not, it doesn't have the way that you received it.

But again, that's not really, yeah. Doing it. And then on Instagram, my bio just says, you're deeply feeling art friend, which I am. But that's, again, it's not like, it doesn't have the same impact.

Ellie: Right? Yeah. One thing that I'll also have you do is I'll have you pull up your Instagram feed and I'd like you to look at the, and take as much time as you need.

Honestly, the last, I wanna say like six posts. Okay. And see if you talked about any of those things anywhere on there as well. Okay.

Emma: Not that one. You're so funny. Onto the next one. Dun, dun, dun. Kind of, but not really. This one I was just complimenting like it was fun to witness these people and just create for fun.

Do you

Ellie: think that's a problem? No. If anything, I think you could probably afford to be more conversational. I love the look on your face. We're like really in the best way possible. I, um, basically, and feel free to just, we've completed both of those exercises. It sounds like this is something you've already thought about but have maybe been unsure about like how to implement what to do.

Yeah, like I,

Emma: the one thing I've done intentionally with Instagram recently, within the last few months, I would say this one is sweet. So maybe in the last six, there's one where I like really talked a little bit about my

Emma: Thank you. Thank you. This one is a one six up from that. And I just talked about how like, no matter the kind of work that I'm doing, it's really like meaningful, every kind of session has its own deep meaning. Yeah. Um, so that one I would say is kind of in line with what I shared, what I have been doing. I used to just like upload a picture or two and not really worry about the way that they were presented.

Mm-hmm. So I've worked hard to make sure that the, when you see them, they're prettier. Like you'll see a grouping of photos instead. And like, I've been building blogs to go with those posts, so they go together and they're cute. Yay. We're doing something. We're doing it. Yes. But when it comes to captions, sometimes I'm just like, what do I say besides like that it really was joyous to be with these people.

Ellie: That is also very astute. Crazy. Yeah. You're, you're very aware and you're very like, it, it seems like none of this stuff is new to you, but yet the idea of the how has been crippling because you have that like English background and it's just like, so, so would you say that your writing style, when you, when you're trying to write for yourself, you said it's conversational.

Mm-hmm. Do you feel like it's a true reflection of how we talk or do you try and have a veneer of like, you know, poeticness that you want it to follow? I think,

Emma: I think because I am somebody who loves reading and art and writing and I always have, I think that my. The way that I do write is a little more romanticized, and the way that I do think of things is a little more romanticized.

Ellie: Okay. So you're really try and like keep it in, into the both category. Okay. Solid. It's

Emma: just what naturally comes out. I, I, I try not to be stringent around my art. Like, I try not to adhere to rules or put myself in boxes. It's just like naturally that's what. I would be willing to go outside, you know, I'd step outside.

You're so,

Yes. Okay. So now we kind of get into the nitty gritty of everything. And I, I wanna say that all the feedback that I'm giving is taking in mind everything, right? Like I, I never want you to feel like based on one thing you tell me, well, this is the answer. Because I feel like that leaves a lot of room for.

Like if I didn't hear everything, I would probably be misinformed on certain key aspects. And I always try and be very aware that any feedback I give really has to factor into the big picture of everything. Yeah. So based on everything that you're saying, you are very aware, you're very clued in for everyone that's listening that might not understand or might not be on our level.

I challenge that notion slightly because you put your starting price on there, it seems like they don't know you very well. Yeah. And so it's like they, they committed to a certain point because they agreed upon the base rate, and if they weren't able to afford the base rate, they wouldn't have reached out to you in the first place unless they're just silly and didn't read anything at all.

Right. Um, and, and so, you know, at this point with every, you know, if you're a photographer listening to this, if you're a photographer and everyone is saying, you know, I love, love, like these are my core interests. And, you know, I can't wait to tell your story kind of thing. Mm-hmm. It, it will run into that.

And if you, I, I would highly recommend even you when the episode comes up, re-listening to that part and listen to yourself just rant about it. Because even if you literally. Did nothing else but just type, type or, or transcribe it or something. I can always send you the transcription, but if you did nothing else but copy and paste that into your homepage, I would be like less.

And I, and put that into your captions. Okay. So I'm gonna reread to you some of the things that you said, and this is kind of why it's just so nice to have someone that's a strategist where it's just like you said all those things, but you didn't recognize that those were the things that you needed to say.

Oh. Um, having your photo taken is a gift. I love the, I love the little responses that you're giving to yourself. 'cause you should know that you're like, like, oh, this is genius stuff. It's not, it's not anything. You're almost like giving me credit for like your words. I'm like, said beautiful,

Emma: you're girl.

Um,

Ellie: wow. Great idea, Ellie. It's, it's yours. It's a perfect idea. Let's see. Giving you permission to feel seen.

Emma: Yes. See,

Yeah. So really honing down on that aspect of if you are comfortable, authentic, everything is authentic. Yep. So that's a huge one because there's a lot of photographers out there that'll be like, you know, don't worry. I'm gonna help you feel comfortable, but like, yeah, and, and like, yes, people wanna feel comfortable, but why is their comfort important?

Why, why don't you just say, listen, I'll like literally pose you and you'll look amazing. Yeah. And you really calm down on it. It's the authenticity factor, and everyone wants the photos to feel authentic to them. Yes. My number one priority is their comfort. Again, if I saw that and it was literally written out as that, I was like, fuck yeah, let's ride.

Emma: being, I'm scribbling right now. We're twinning, so

Ellie: all good. Mine's just like perfect.

What you've kind of essentially done here. Is you've, you've articulated an entire experience who, what, where, when, why, and how. Mm-hmm. In like five sentences when you're explaining it to me, which is a level of transparency that gives people that I have literally no questions. I love your work. I know exactly what to expect.

It's fucking go. Yes, yes. Um, and, and the thing that I applaud you for is that you were able to articulate it in such a way where you were really able to frame out the entirety of the problem. And I think that when, when you're an artist and when you, and this is not necessarily for you, this is just for everyone.

That looks really, really, really good. But like, I don't believe that I will look that good. Got it. Unless I know how to perform. Yes.

Emma: I think a lot too. This is total sidebar, so, oh, let's do it. I think a lot of times about like photographers that I admire that have gorgeous, gorgeous work, but their entire feed or their entire Instagram is content shoots.

You're working with models. Mm-hmm. Like it's so different work. Like with French Press, with our boudoir business. My friend Jessa, who's also a photographer, has been modeling since she was young. Photographing her. I've done it my whole life, and she's always, we just work very well together. I could photograph her all day.

Yes, it's beautiful. Yes, it still are. I still love those images, but I, I find that there's a big difference between, you know, people want candid work, but you just want me to pose you in ways to get candid photos versus you want somebody to work with you that's gonna get to a point where you can be whatever you are together.

A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm not trying to like, make you look like a Pinterest board. Like I wanna know what you, what you two are like when you're in love and what feels best and truest to you. And then that do that. Like I don't, I, I don't know. So I think it's important to have real people so you can say, no, these are people just like you with no experience, just like you,

Ellie: you know?

Right. And not every photographer that is in your area feels that way. Right. Like some of them will be like, I shouldn't touch anything and there shouldn't be any direction. Mm-hmm. And so, like within your area, have you noticed that there are people that operate very differently in terms of like how they approach with their clients?

I, I think

Emma: so. Yeah. Definitely. I think in, in St. Louis there's a lot of, you know, the archetype.

Ellie: Yeah, so we

Then we have like a bunch of photographers who are. Incredibly hands off. Like they're not, they're not doing anything really. And they're shooting a lot of film and a lot of like hybrid weddings. So they're using a lot of different mediums. So we have a lot of like one or the other. I think there maybe are a couple people that I would say like I could compare myself to in our styles.

Like people see my work and find it different. Yeah. But then I'll compare myself to local artists and be like, wow, I'm sucking. So it's just like, Pointless. I guess

Ellie: it, it's so interesting and to kind of like, and I, I love everything that you brought to the table. Like obviously it's very clear that you're very like aware of like your area and what people are, you know, experiencing like as photographers where it's just like their approaches and stuff and it's, it's wildly fascinating to me how, for us it's clear as day.

Yeah. We, we kind of project our, like, our dessi, not you necessarily, but like I'd say as an industry, many of us project our, like, desire to be seen and be understood purely on an artistic level that we don't understand that we already are accepted purely, uh, by them, purely on the basis of them considering us in the first place.

It's just a matter of putting it there and getting it there in a way that feels like you. And so you, you know your why and you, you illustrated it and now it's just a matter of getting it on there. So, so for you, you said, you know, from a creative writing standpoint, you know, you, you speak somewhat conversationally, but like writing it is hard.

What is, what, what goes through your head when you're writing and why is it a difficult process

Emma: for you? When I'm going through it, I feel like I. It's hard to concisely say all that I wanna say when it feels so fast, like when we were speaking just now, it came out pretty organically. But when I just try to convey it, I'm like, I don't know how to make you understand how much I care about all of it.

Which I guess that person's not right for me. But you know, you just wanna present it in a way that people are receiving it as truly as you intended it to be received. Right. Struggle with that. And I think, I think part of it is because I do care and feel so, so deeply. If you see that and you see that I'm like offering, literally, this is the most intimate thing in the world for me to give you my own art.

Like if you don't want that, that's a hard rejection. So it's just like that same vulnerability. I'm asking for people. I'm refusing to give them, but I'm going to, now I'm gonna write

Ellie: on, I don't think, I don't think you're refusing. I think it's just like maybe a little bit of like paralysis. Yeah. In getting it out

Like why would they care? They're here for themselves, you know? Mm-hmm. They're here for themselves. Yeah. I, but it is a relationship, so I'm gonna have to do it. I'm gonna have to share.

Ellie: Well, well, let's, let's talk about something that you said that was super interesting, and I don't disagree with you, but I wanna understand it from your point of view.

You said they're in it for themselves. Tell me about your understanding around that.

Emma: So, I feel like I've heard other, like people in the industry that do education, say like, When people are coming to your page, they don't give a crap about what you care about, who you are. What they're worried about is like, how are you gonna give them exactly what they're looking for?

How are you gonna show? Like, I don't wanna drop names. I will tell you after this,

Ellie: I'll, I'm tease,

I can absolutely do that. I'm perfect for that. Even if I've never done that, even if I've never tried it before. Like it was, oh my gosh, no transparency. A hundred percent selling and to, yeah. And. They're a very successful educator, so whatever. But I just, to me, authenticity is so important. Not just in my art, but in me.

Like, I'm not gonna tell somebody that I've done something I haven't done, or I'm not going, I don't wanna, I don't wanna waste somebody's time. It's, it all ties back to that worthiness. Like, I don't wanna waste your

Ellie: time and you

Emma: not think, like, I don't wanna present myself and say like, this is who I am, this is what I create, and you reject that.

And like, of course it's worthy of being said, but when it comes to my own self, I'm like, yeah, but would they think that's stupid or would they think that caption's cheesy or Oh my gosh, you know, like all of those where it's like, it's a waste of my energy and my time, but it lives there. You know, like it's part of it, like it's part of the being your own, you are the brand.

When you're the photographer, in a lot of ways I'm selling like right, the thing I cherish most, which is my art, and it comes from the most vulnerable part, vulnerable part of me. So there's no part of it that doesn't feel tender.

Ellie: You know, I love talking to you. You are just the most open-hearted human, by the way.

Emma: never just like show up and show up. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it Like it, it felt like, it felt like kind of what you were saying that is not effective.

An overhaul for your business, that is not for your business. Yeah. It's a one size thing all it's watching what your competitors do. It's watching what other people do and then thinking that's gonna work. But I don't want my business to look like everybody else's, and most people don't. So it's like, but yeah, I would love to see you in a cage fight.

I would throw

Ellie: money. Is this.

Emma: Literally when you spit the blood out from a punch, I would be the one who like puts water in your mouth and wipes off, rubs your

I understand the thinking behind it, but the way that it was brought and the, the, the reasoning behind it, I think is not only problematic, but incredibly unfair. Because is there something to be said for people being, you know, innately selfish? What it, what's in it for me? Yes. But if everyone's saying that exact same thing, then they are no clearer.

As to what they're getting themselves into. I mean, they could be the type of person that wants all of the coaching and all of the like, insight and all of the confidence and all the stuff. But if you're saying, yeah, I can totally do that, to like literally everything and you're like, quiet as a mouse, well that they're not gonna be happy with, and everyone benefits when you just say what you are and no one's asking.

Yeah. So I appreciate you sharing that, and I apologize for how that has impacted you because that, I think that that's forced you to kind of shelve a lot of these things. Yeah. And

Emma: make me afraid of that. It just felt like, I mean, they, of course, there's lots of good information. There's good and bad and it's gonna work for some people.

You could find the right person for you. You can. And like, I, I want the clients who I was speaking to some, I, I told you I was doing photography for that author that is presenting in their book. So we were speaking and they do something they call brain orgies, which is where they talk to people business and they try to like, It's so funny and they're so freaking talented.

I'll send you their profile too. Yeah, please do. But they'll just like chat with people and say like, well, have you considered these offerings? Or whatever the case may be. When I was speaking to them about like those projects, I personally think that everybody has something to offer and Caitlyn was asking like, who's your perfect client?

It's people who see my work and see value in it And respect me. Yeah. And want me to like want me in there. Moments to capture that. Like, that's it, it's that simple. Yes. But then it makes it hard to like find them, you know? So I feel like what you're sharing and what I'm understanding is like the more you show up as yourself, the more those people can find you because they'll know more about you even without you

Ellie: having to seek them out.

Exactly. And I, I love the way that you, you phrased that like infinity times better than I would've. Like, I'm just like, it's clear your English background is showing. 'cause I'm like, damn, I'm gonna steal the way you phrased that. But, you know, to a certain degree. And I got feedback from another audit that I had the other day where she, where there was an individual that came to me and said, you know, there, there's a lot of pain associated around being in existing in this space as myself.

I think it really just comes down to boiling down. You know, you've been in this business for seven years, you've been taking all of the time to really like absorb and think about why you wanna approach things. I mean, you could have had the option to be a door mouse and not say anything. And not that there's anything wrong with that approach, but you made a conscious decision to operate your business differently.

Is it an accident? Is do I have to be beautiful? Like, do I have to get my makeup? Like how, like how does that happen? And so what I love so much about you is you, you have a clear point of view and it's a matter of just putting it out there. And I understand that like from your perspective, it might be something where you're like, well, you know, do I honor the poetic side of myself and present this in a way that comes across eloquently and comes across, um, very much honoring that perspective and that background for me.

And I would almost just say that, you know, if you're trying to figure out the best way to frame your messaging, the best place to start both on your captions and on your homepage is to do what I like to call the who, what, where, and why, and how framework, which is on your homepage. And I'm specifically talking about the homepage because I have a really core fundamental value that.

So what I'd liked for you to do in a way that gets more of those Hell yes clients, and less of those like, well, I'm a little nervous, like maybe I'm thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want, I want them. By the time they get to the very bottom of the homepage, they're just like, yes. And every page that I go to after this is just icing.

Cake. And I think you're gonna find that you will love what that does for

Emma: you. I know. I'm like, let's go. You know, you gets like excited sweats. I'm like about to run somewhere. I'm going,

And then go on your homepage and say, basically jot down the answers to that given all of these points that you've shared with me today. Perfect. So ideally, you know, when you're thinking about the who, you know, the who are the people that I'm trying to attract? Well, they're the people who are afraid of being seen.

Mm-hmm. They're the people that need permission to be seen, and they're the people that you know, really want to feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. And authentic in their photos. Boom. Done. Done. What? What are we doing? You know, we're, we're not just doing photo sessions here. We're cultivating space for you to feel like your most authentic self.

And I do that by, you know, giving you cues, giving you actions, giving you verbal affirmations. I'm very hands-on. Um, you'll never have to wonder what to do with your hands. And what, where

Ellie: so, so where may you could approach the, where from a few different angles.

You could do it from that angle. You know, you could also approach it from the, and that's kind of the beauty about the who at where wine, how. There's not necessarily one question that comes from it. You could address multiple different things and still have it be impactful. You know, where is the best place that I've found to apply direction versus being hands off.

You've also mentioned that you like you. You don't, you didn't use this word specifically, but what I gathered from you was that you understand during like the rapid pace of wedding days mm-hmm. You understand where it's important to be hands-on and where it's important to be hands off. Yeah. So that people get candid photos.

And, uh, where when, um, gosh, there's so many different ways we can approach the, when, I mean, I guess the, when could also go with that, what that I just said. You know, when. When am I gonna be the most hands-on with you? When am I not? What I can do is I can list out like a bunch of questions for you that you can make sure to kind of crosscheck with it.

Okay. And I think, I think what that will do is on a very fundamental core level, is at the very least, even if it's not perfectly written, you'll have the core values all completely lined out. Mm-hmm. So that way people aren't just viewing you as a commodity based on your work, they're understanding what you're about.

And so we're just making it easier for the Yes. We're putting the value on the front page. Yeah. Didn't even

Emma: see the price before. You know that I'm the best. Okay. Exactly.

Ellie: That's really nice. Okay. That's really nice. Exactly. And I'll take your photo. Do you have any questions so far based on what we talked about?

Emma: No. This has been so like informative and digestible, like you are making it feel easy. Oh, you're so nice.

Ellie: Well, you're my job easy. You wrote it all. You basically gave me everything to write out and said to

Emma: you, so it's perfect. As far as I'm concerned, I would've never known if it weren't for you.

Ellie: So it's yours now.

But I think for right now, the thing that's super funny to me is everyone in the industry is like, no one reads captions. No one reads captions. But guess who's reading the captions? The people that are undecided on you. And right now, I will say that I'm not gonna knock what you've currently done because I do feel like there's strategy and what you've currently done, which is you've tried to make it about the couple.

Mm-hmm. And make it about them and what you, what you valued in the session. And I think that there's merit in that. So I would like to see that done, but in a different way. Okay. Where you are, instead of just talking about you appreciate the quiet moments. And, you know, the value of having like, sunset versus like not sunset.

But like, everyone instantly falls in love with that story. So. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of your subjects are mm-hmm. Have very interesting stories and very interesting sexes. But if they don't, then you can dive into who, what, where, and why, and how framework and apply that to your, the

Emma: same page tactic, just that same information.

Ellie: Okay. Yep. You can make it more digestible. You can make it a sentence, you can make it too, you can make it long. You can make it short. A little bit of everything. I will say I also really loved the recent post that you did. The one that I said was like the black and white, and it was like, it was longer, and I was like, that is the most of her I've ever seen.

And I literally love

Emma: that. Okay. I'm gonna, it was the one where the couple was like about to smooch.

Emma: is like more about me than most of the things.

Ellie: Okay. Do you feel any nerves or any hesitations with sharing that part of yourself?

Or do you feel like what we've talked about is enough of yourself without being heavy handed? Yeah, I,

Emma: I, I don't necessarily feel hesitant to share about myself. It's just that, that thought in my mind of like, who wants to read this? But to combat that, it's like, this is my business page. They're here to read it.

And even planting the seed I think is good. 'cause when you do get married, you'll

Ellie: think of me. If I wasn't already married, I'd be thinking.

Emma: Got it. Whenever you renew your vows, all I'm saying is I'll fight whoever you hire if it's not me. I'm just kidding. We've

Ellie: been planning it out forever. But you know, I think it's really interesting what you brought up because what you were navigating before was this black and white idea of like, well, I just simply can't share my, I can't afford to share about myself without missing opportunity.

Yeah. And I find that in a space where there's a sea of a million people like you, you do have to stand for something. And even if it's not like this, like harsh moral stance, you're, you are in a way making a, a light stance on saying, you know, I'm choosing not to just show up and do nothing. I'm choosing to approach it this way.

Mm-hmm. And when you are clear about what that looks like, then they're like, I know exactly what I'm getting. And that money suddenly seems more worth it. And there are people that want something different, right? Like some customers, some customers, the idea of having a cheerleader just is repulsing to them, and they can find their perfect photographers.

Yes. And love that. So love the hell out of your, the way you think and how you approach everything. And I, I'm so grateful that you let me talk to you today. And is there any other things about caption writing, about messaging, about anything that you're like, Hey, I'd love to know a little bit more about this.

I

Emma: don't think so. I feel like, I feel like I've just taken in so much goodness that I have to like, play with it first. Like, okay, you've just given me a wave of genius. Yeah.

Ellie: You're genius. You, you gave me the info. Well,

Emma: genuinely, you're so good at what you do. I mean, I knew, I knew that you were gonna be outstanding.

Just 'cause I've been following you for ages. I've been following you since India. Earl's first month of close friends.

Emma: Earl for connecting us. It's making us like, this is so cool.

Yeah, A new friendship.

Ellie: Well, I, I wanna make sure that everyone who has come to love and adore you the way I have, has the opportunity to see you and like follow you and everything like that. So where can people find you if they wanna know more? Thank you.

Emma: That'd be so cute if they did. Um, so my Instagram is m e b photog, E M M Y B E e.

Um, I'm also on French press boudoir on Instagram. And yeah, I have a TikTok. I'm hardly on there, but if somebody wants to send me like a really funny video, I'd love that. I'll send you, and that's just photo as well. So please like, that would be prime for me.

Ellie: Um, but yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here.

Yeah,

Emma: thank you.