Céline Williams, founder of reVisionary and an award-winning executive coach, reminds us that critical thinking is one of the rarest yet most vital skills a leader can bring to the table. With over 20 years of experience in leadership development and organizational transformation, she shows how being intentional in our decisions means recognizing biases, questioning assumptions, and digging deeper to uncover root causes. We explore how to pause, reflect, and step back from automatic responses so that we can choose stronger, more sustainable solutions. Critical thinking is not about overcomplicating things. It’s about courageously examining perspectives, challenging comfort zones, and modeling a better way of leading. 

Highlights 

1. See Beyond the Obvious - We learn how to move past surface symptoms and uncover the real problems that need solving. 

2. Recognize Hidden Biases - Every leader has biases. The skill lies in acknowledging them and not letting them drive decisions. 

3. Question Assumptions - By naming and testing assumptions, we open doors to new insights and stronger strategies. 

4. Practice Reflection Before Action - Individual reflection before group discussion creates space for fresh, unbiased ideas. 

5. Courage in Leadership - It takes courage to step into uncomfortable conversations and model true critical thinking for our teams.  

Resources Mentioned 

The Inspire Your Team to Greatness assessment (the Courage Assessment) 

How can you inspire our team to be more proactive, take ownership and get more done?  

You demonstrate and empower The Courage of a Leader. In my nearly 3 decades of work with leaders, I’ve discovered the 11 things that leaders do – even very well-intentioned leaders do – that kill productivity. 

In less than 10 minutes, find out where you’re empowering and inadvertently kills productivity, and get a custom report that will tell you step by step what you need to have your team get more done. 

https://courageofaleader.com/inspireyourteam/  

About the Guest:  

Céline Williams is the founder of reVisionary, a boutique consulting firm that partners with growth-minded leaders and executive teams around the world. With over 20 years of experience in leadership development, culture design, and organizational transformation, she brings a rare blend of strategic insight and human-centered expertise.  

Céline is an award-winning executive coach, international speaker, and trusted advisor known for her mix of empathy, edge, and practical wisdom. She also hosts two acclaimed podcasts, lectures at top business schools, and helps leaders unlock clarity, connection, and momentum in the moments that matter most. 

She can be reached at: 

http://revisionary.ca/  

https://www.facebook.com/revisionary.ca  

About the Host:  

Amy L. Riley is an internationally renowned speaker, author and consultant. She has over 2 decades of experience developing leaders at all levels. Her clients include Cisco Systems, Deloitte and Barclays. 

As a trusted leadership coach and consultant, Amy has worked with hundreds of leaders one-on-one, and thousands more as part of a group, to fully step into their leadership, create amazing teams and achieve extraordinary results.   

Amy’s most popular keynote speeches are:  

• The Courage of a Leader: The Power of a Leadership Legacy  
• The Courage of a Leader: Create a Competitive Advantage with Sustainable, Results-Producing Cross-System Collaboration 
• The Courage of a Leader: Accelerate Trust with Your Team, Customers and Community 
• The Courage of a Leader: How to Build a Happy and Successful Hybrid Team 

Her new book is a #1 international best-seller and is entitled, The Courage of a Leader: How to Inspire, Engage and Get Extraordinary Results. 

http://www.courageofaleader.com  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyshoopriley  

Thanks for listening! 

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Mentioned in this episode:

The Inspire Your Team to Greatness assessment (The Courage Assessment)

https://courageofaleader.com/inspireyourteam/

What if one of the most powerful leadership skills

is also one of the rarest in this episode of the courage of a

leader podcast, I'm joined by the brilliant Céline Williams,

award winning executive coach, international speaker and

trusted advisor, who brings a blend of empathy, edge and

practical wisdom together, we dive into the often overlooked

but absolutely game changing skill of critical thinking. Get

ready for insights that will challenge assumptions, sharpen

your decision making and spark new possibilities for you and

your team.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where

you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving

extraordinary results, and you get practical advice and

techniques you can immediately apply for your own success. This

is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous

action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host. Amy Reilly,

now are you ready to step into the full power of your

leadership and achieve the results you care about most?

Let's ignite the courage of a leader.

Céline, thank you for being on the courage of a leader podcast today.

Céline Williams: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to

talk to you.

Yes, me too. We always have a good time, and I'm

excited about the skill we are going to talk about today. I

think it is a skill that is not talked about enough in

workplaces about how critical it is, and that is the skill of

critical thinking. Celine, will you start off by telling us how

do you define or think about critical thinking, and why is it

important?

Céline Williams: That's a very large question to start with,

which I appreciate. I'm so I think the easiest way. And I'm

going to caveat that this is not the like book definition of

critical thinking. I'm sure going to make this really simple

on purpose. Okay, so if you were to look up a textbook on

critical thinking, I'm sure it would have a much more precise

definition. But what I would say, especially with what I see

showing up in organizations and with leaders, that that critical

thinking is the ability to see something, to think about things

from a variety of perspectives, nice to look at it without the

inherent biases or assumptions that we have built in driving

the outlook that we are hoping to see. Then to be able to use

that information to make better decisions.

Actually, I'd love to interject, right? Clear. I like

that you're talking about the variety of perspectives, right?

Not just the filter that our upbringing, our functional skill

building and knowledge building and exposure that we've had to

date tells us without bias, right? Like without infused with

our hope that the answer is going to be x, but willing to be

somewhat detached there and really take an objective look

from different angles. Yes, love

Céline Williams: it. Yes. I think it is one of the most

important skills a leader can have, and it's also one of the

rarest skills that any human has these days.

Uh huh, uh huh. Why is it important ceiling?

Céline Williams: Well, because otherwise, we all tend to fall

into the pattern of doing things the way that we're comfortable

doing things, yes, and this is the way. It's all white. If it

ain't broke, don't fix it.

Everything's a nail. I'm going to keep using this

approach. This worked here. It can work here again. And I mean,

and sometimes we can find solutions from what's worked in

the past. Yet, are we pausing and considering this from

different angles.

Céline Williams: Yes, it's and this is not to say that the way

we have done things is sometimes the best way for right now, even

if it's not forever, that maybe that is the ideal solution.

That's absolutely that can be the truth. There's it's not to

say, let's just destroy everything and start fresh over

and over again. It is critical thinking is really about being

intentional about those choices and about ensuring that we're

operating from best information and with the best information

available to us in the moment, considering all of the avenues

not. Us the things we're comfortable considering and

starting from that

yes, intentional, conscious, oh yes, and willing

to think about the answers we might not be hoping for. Yes, I

like it, yeah. Um. Celine, my how. Brain wants to get more

into the how, but first, let me tell listeners a little bit more

about you. Céline Williams is the founder of reVisionary, a

boutique consulting firm that partners with growth minded

leaders and executive teams around the world. With over 20

years of experience in leadership development, culture,

design and organizational transformation, Céline brings a

rare blend of strategic insight and human centered expertise.

She's an award winning executive coach, international speaker and

trusted advisor, known for her mix of empathy, edge and

practical wisdom. She also hosts two acclaimed podcasts, lectures

at top business schools, and helps leaders unlock clarity

connection and momentum in the moments that matter most. We'll

have some links in the show notes so that you can get

connected with Céline, but thanks again for sharing your

expertise and your time with us today.

Céline Williams: I love doing this. I loved these

conversations, I always enjoy talking to you, and truly there

are the more we can talk about, whether it's critical thinking

or other like real, practical leadership skills and

opportunities, the more we're going to have leaders that are

actually thinking and doing and improving in these areas. And

that's what it's all about.

Yes, couldn't agree more. How do we do it? How do we

critical think in these leadership moments?

Céline Williams: Yeah, I would love to say, listen, here's the

three things that we just do over and over again, and it's

solved, right? Unfortunately, that's not the case. But I joke.

I you know, I joke. And also, there are real things that we

can do to improve our critical thinking, for ourselves, for

those around us to really even be here's the thing, if we are

being really mindful and intentional about critical

thinking and about how we make decisions, we can take some

steps to improve it, just from that starting point. And what I

mean by that is, if we first and foremost, we all have to be

willing to say we all have biases. We all have biases. They

come with, where we were born, who we are in the world, who our

parents were, how we were raised, how we were educated,

where we've been in the world,

what like you name and exposed to? Yeah, exactly.

We all

Céline Williams: have biases that are inside of us as a

result of all these things. And biases are great because our

it's our brain trying to keep us safe. So let's not say all

biases are we have them because our brain is like, Hey, I care

about you. I want to keep you safe. I'm connecting dots. I'm

doing the right dots because I'm still fallible, but I am

connecting dots to try and keep you safe. So I'm creating these

biases based on things that may or may not be true in the hopes

to keep you as safe as possible, as a human being on this

planet. Yes, the brain saying, hey, you've never

done that before. You've never considered that before. What are

you doing? Come back to this thing you know over here,

exactly.

Céline Williams: So they're great. We are supposed to have

biases. They're not inherently bad, nice and yeah, inside of

that, we also have to say they're also not all good.

They're also not all there to actually serve us, because they

are not the truth. They are patterns and assumptions that

our brain is making. So one of the key things is being willing

to say, Yes, I have biases, and recognize our own biases, good,

bad or ugly, yeah, and then also being able to identify what they

are, especially the ones that may not be true or are driving

certain behaviors or patterns in the work that we're doing, the

decisions we're making, The teams were leading whatever

those case, whatever that case may be,

yes. So Céline, I'm hearing, first of all, having on

our radar, having an intention to be aware about how we are

thinking, how we are critically thinking, being willing to say

to ourselves, yeah, I'm a human being with the brain. So I have

biases, yes, and I love how you name that. It's the brain doing

its survival mechanism, thing that it has been doing for us

humans for centuries, right? So we can detach from it a little

bit like my brain is telling me this my brain. That's finding

this unfamiliar, right? So I'm having some judgments or some

ideas about it. So how do we identify those biases? How do we

check those and make sure we're a bit more conscious of how they

are impacting our thinking in the moment?

Céline Williams: So I would offer that doing it in the

moment on our own is really hard. Okay, yeah, let's not do

that. Okay, we can all get to the point where it's a practice

and we can do that, and we're really good at it, but if that's

our starting point in the moment, high stakes. I'm trying

to do this on my own. That's really tough. Yeah, when it's a

situation like that, having someone around you who you

trust, who understands and is familiar with some of the most

common biases, to be able to call them out or point them out,

even if they don't know the language I don't, I'm not as

fussed about naming this. Is it this type of bias? And there are

lists for that online, and they're wonderful. They're less

concerned about it's a, x, y, z, no bias, or, yeah, right, I'm

less concerned about the name of it, versus, like, pointing out

that there is a bias. And let's talk about that. If you have a

trusted person, great, if not, when you're not in as high

stakes environment. If you think through some of the decisions

that you've made, some of the situations that you faced and

how you've thought about them or worked through them, we can

often then start to break apart patterns and biases inside of

those and so doing it when it's not in a high stakes so for

example, it can be something like a really easy one. I'm

going to use a hiring example. So, you know, we're doing

interviews to hire someone, and we tend to, like, when there's

someone who went to the same university or college that we

did, we're like, oh my gosh, this didn't you go here? And

then that interview, we're like, Man, I really liked Amy. She was

awesome.

Yeah, we're talking about Saturdays at the football

games.

Céline Williams: Yeah, right. It's a silly example, but that's

a there's a bias there. Like, we're like, Oh, someone has a

similar background to me. I am feeling a certain way. If we

then have 10 of the 15 shortlisted people who went to

the same college that we went to, we can start to say, Okay,

so where are these again? Don't care if you name the bias, but

where am I seeing these patterns in how I've approached things

and thought about things, to start to identify the biases,

which then helps me in those moments of when I'm under

pressure, think about what's driving this, where is this

coming from? Am I thinking of other possibilities? Am I

looking at other potential perspectives? Am I shutting down

or opening up too soon, or whatever the case may be?

Yes, yes. Okay, I love this Céline I mean, I'm

hearing the invitation that we could look back at the

decisions, or the reactions that we had over the past week, over

the past month, we could look at it in retro. And what was that

play, right? What were the variables I was most leaning on?

What was the rationale I was most leaning on. Yes, I also

love this question. If we witness a behavior from

somebody, let's just say we walk into a physical room and someone

is staring off out the window silently, or let's say they're

doing that during a meeting, right? If it was our highest

performer, we might think, Oh, right. They're thinking about

how this can work, right? They're strategizing about how

this is going to go. If they're our lowest performer, we might

think, Oh, they're distracted. They're looking out of the

window right now, right? If we ask ourselves, what would I

think if it was this person that I have really high regard for?

What if it was this person, right? And what is changing my

reaction and my behavior in that moment, right? Or even if you're

making decision about a product line, what would we what would I

think if it was the a product line versus the E product line

like? And why am I thinking about that differently to kind

of tease out, what are my positive assumptions? What are

my negative assumptions? What are my seemingly neutral

assumptions? Yes, cuz all of those are going to have filters

and bias that have some impact,

Céline Williams: uh, 100% and I would say there is a tool that

you can use in critical thinking. We're in the moment of

making a decision. And I going to put a pin in something to

come back to, because the decision itself, like defining

that let I want to come back to that. Oh, okay, yep, once we

have this is what we're facing. This is the decision. This. Is

the moment. If we take the time to pause and actually write out

and especially if there's other people involved, collect it out

first. Do not say it out loud. Okay, so start by write my own.

Write write your own. Write your own. I write my own. We're going

to write out all the assumptions we have, nice, good, bad or

ugly. What are the assumptions that are here, some of them are

not going to matter, and that's okay. But if we do this all

individually and then we share it after, we'll get a real sense

of what those assumptions are with again, there will be bias

inherent in them. If we are familiar with our own biases, we

can start to see that and then pull apart those assumptions,

like, oh, this assumption I'm making is based on this bias I

have that's not a real thing. I'm okay to pull let's move that

off, because it's not now that I've seen it, I don't have to

spend the time on it. But there's a whole practice of

writing out, or there. Can be there? Should I wish there was

more often, a whole practice of writing out assumptions that we

have about a project, a decision, a problem that we're

faced, whatever the case may be, if we can do that for ourselves,

we will make better decisions. We will end up with stronger,

more sustainable, more whatever you want to call it, strategies,

yeah, we just we solve problems more effectively if we

understand the assumptions first, yes,

yes. And I'm thinking Céline. If this feels like a

jump for a team, ooh, this feels too vulnerable. I'm not sure if

I want to put that out there. Find an anonymous way to do it.

Have a shared document where people can add those assumptions

in there in random order, I don't know, right, but just so

that you get them all out on the table and begin to build that

muscle of defining, recognizing and deciding which assumption

assumptions to leave behind 100%

Céline Williams: because there some of the assumptions we have

are going to be based on biases. If we know that, and we can

identify that, we can often push we can push that to the side in

the sense that it's main, it's probably not as relevant, or I

don't want that running the show. Yeah, it's based on past

experience and less of a bias, but, like I had this experience,

so I have this assumption. Now we can then ask the question, Is

that relevant? Does that matter in this situation, right? Is

that, if it's if it is something that we like, is this something

that could be true? Is it something that may not be what

ha who is involved, what has to happen? What are the realities

of this? We can then start to ask better questions of the

situation based on how we're categorizing some of the

assumptions that we make or that we are making, because, by the

way, we're all always making assumptions, as well as having

biases, we are human beings, and our brains love to do this, so

let's acknowledge it and do something about it and bring it

to light, yeah, so that we can address it, as opposed to

shuffling it under the rug, for lack of better term. And then it

becomes what I always call ghost assumptions, which they are the

assumptions that are driving us, yeah, but we're not actually

recognizing or acknowledging, and then it's like, what that

what? How did that happen? A couple of

examples are popping into my mind, Céline, like one,

if there's just this assumption, like, marketing always slows us

down. Yeah, right. And it could seem like a pretty okay. It

seems like a not great, like, mildly negative, right, or

somewhat, like, neutral, like, I might feel like I have some

evidence, yeah, to how that can be true. But if we don't call

that out and say, You know what, like that perspective is not

serving us, let's start to influence that relationship,

right? Let's look for evidence of how that's not true. Yes. And

I think sometimes there can be seemingly neutral assumptions,

like it takes six months to launch a product like this, does

it? Does it have to in the future?

Céline Williams: Yes, yeah, Yep, absolutely. And interesting if,

if we write that, if we state that, it takes six months to

launch a product like this, if we state that, then, to your

point, we can ask the question, does it have to is that always

what has to happen for that not to be the case? What needs to

change so that it doesn't take six months? Yeah, maybe six

months isn't enough time, and that's why our products aren't

working as well as we hope. Yeah. So what needs to change

for them to launch more effectively? Maybe it needs

eight months, and we're missing a step right like so if we state

the assumption, we can ask a better question.

I get excited about these. Conversations that can

happen. Yes, once one is out on the table. 100% Okay, now let's

examine the sucker right now we can now, we can have some fun,

absolutely get creative, but we've got to have that courage

to put that out there.

Céline Williams: And let's acknowledge that Sammy, it takes

a lot of courage to put it out there. It takes a lot of

courage. I mean, I would say when it comes to critical

thinking, most of the exercises, steps, strategies in critical

thinking, take courage, because they are not the norm. They are

not what's expected. Leaders are expected to think critically

without doing any of this, and which is why they often don't

know. Offense to leaders. It's not a single person. It is a

it's a systemic issue. Yeah, because they're not given the

space or taught how to it's just like you, we assume you're

thinking critically. So just think critically. And it takes

courage to to institute these changes and be willing to have

these conversations, because they're going to be

uncomfortable. Yes, and healthy tension is exceptionally

valuable when it comes to critical thinking.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking like leaders, if

you can begin to build this muscle, have yourself model it

for your team, and bring your team courageously into these

conversations. What a game changer. Absolutely. Okay. Now,

Celine, you had us put a pin in something, yeah, and that was

defining the decision, yes.

Céline Williams: So the reason I said, let's put a pin in this is

because the one of the challenges, let's call it, that

I see across the board, whether it's large organizations, small

organizations, teams, groups, departments, whatever the case

may be, is misconstruing a symptom for a problem? Okay,

yes, and what I mean by that is there is an issue and that is a

symptom of something, and there's not enough digging into

what's really going on or what's really behind it to identify the

correct problem and the root cause, yeah, the root cause, and

then we are making decisions that are not based on the best

information, because we're not doing the critical thinking to

get to the root cause, or at least as close to the root

cause. Sometimes we don't know enough to get truly to what

right, like that does happen, but we can dig deep enough to

get close enough to it, but

and then, and then stay in the inquiry correct over

time. Do you have an example you can share with us? Céline, of of

a symptom? Be of confusing a symptom for cause?

Céline Williams: Yes. So there are, I'm, I'm gonna try to

anonymize this as much as possible. Okay, the An example

would be a company has is struggling with sales. There's

what's worked in the past isn't working as well as it has the

you know, sales leaders are looking at, how do we solve

this? Yeah, and not enough. Sales people aren't selling

enough. And so it's like, okay, well, if we hire people to do a

certain amount of follow up, this is, I'm, there's a specific

title there that I'm blanking on to even get, but like to do the

connecting and follow up. If they're following up,

operationalizing, doing this piece behind then we'll have

more closing of the sales. I'll have better information.

Whatever the case may be, it's a it's

so we're assuming that we need to fix this

problem. The problem needs to be more follow up. We need more

people doing that.

Céline Williams: And this is, I mean, I'm anonymizing it as much

as possible. This is a an example I have seen in two

different large organizations, very similar to this, where it's

like, okay, well, we just need these people to do this thing

that will then fix the problem, and we'll close more sales. We

need more activity. Yeah, right. And new people doing this will

solve that, as opposed to the real problem, like, when we've

done some of the work to step further back from that, yeah,

the problem is not that the activity isn't there, or that

there's not enough people going out and talking to potential

clients. It's that there are there's a disconnect with the

product, or that the product isn't solving the problem that

they really have, or that, or that there is, there are better

offers out there that are more compelling. So the problem was

not the activity. The problem was you had to ask another five

questions to get behind it.

Yeah. Which could be scary to advance, very scary.

Our solution might not be the best in the market, or our

competitor is, is demonstrating something better than we are

right now. Like, ah, that's a scarier conclusion,

Céline Williams: way scarier than we just need more we need

more activity so we have more sales. That is, that's a

symptom, like, I understand that is a symptom, and we feel we can

solve that. We can hire more people, we can do more activity,

yep, but we're not solving the problem, and we're not doing

something that actually addresses or we are not even

making decisions to help address the problem in the future, when

we're only looking at this piece of it. And that is the other

scary thing is, so if the problem is, our product is not

as competitive on the market as it once was, if we admit that,

then it changes the decisions we're making fundamentally about

the future? Yeah. And the only way to create something that is

sustainable or has potential in the future is to identify that

problem, to be able to do something about it. Yes, but if

we do that, then we're admitting we have, like, it's, it is a

cycle. I understand how scary that is, and how big that can

feel, how overwhelming it can feel, yeah, but it is the only

way to potentially change the future. Yeah, as opposed to

just, let's do some busy stuff that doesn't actually have an

impact.

Yes, and and we have been programmed. We've been

socialized to get busy and do something to solve the situation

at hand, to capitalize on an opportunity. Whatever it might

be, leaders are immediately going to Okay. What are we going

to do next, instead of slowing down, stepping back doesn't have

to be for months. But what? What is the what is the problem, what

is the decision, what is the opportunity? How are we defining

that? Are we sure we fully understand that? And yes, there

might be some immediate actions to take, but we can stay engaged

in that definition and that inquiry over time.

Céline Williams: So I love what you just said, and I want to

emphasize it because it is not either or are likely activities

that can be done right now. Yeah, to move stuff forward, to

be productive, to whatever, and we are thinking about the bigger

problem and hopefully making some progress and choices there.

The difference is that the activities that we are going to

choose to do right now to hopefully drive some changes are

probably going to be different than if when we understand what

the real problem is. So it's not to say we're not doing anything

now. It's that make better choices about even the immediate

activities when we understand what the core problem is,

yes, and see what kind of impact those immediate activities have

or don't have, exactly, absolutely. Okay, Celine, you've

given us a lot of good stuff here. Let me end with this

question. So if I'm a leader listening and I'm thinking, oh,

right, like we are just always running and assembling the plane

as we're flying, and I haven't talked to my team about bias or

assumptions or clarifying decisions in a disciplined way.

Where do they get started? I'm

going to give the answer that nobody likes first, and then I

can give a better, a more acceptable answer, but the

answer is that it really does depend on each leader's

situation and their team situation. So sure there is a

real depends, right, right? And so I'm going to say it depends,

because there is no one size fits all for any of this.

Whatever you got most excited about as you were

listening to this conversation, right? It's probably fitting for

your situation. But okay,

Céline Williams: right? So I saying that I truly if leaders

start with having people pause and write their thoughts down,

so if we can just get rid of brainstorming in the way that we

do, where it's just like everyone popcorns up ideas, and

we all build on ideas that would be the best and easiest way to

start some critical thinking, because we know when that

happens. People build on what other people have said. They

don't come up with their own ideas in the same way they're

often stifled from sharing their ideas if it's different than if

my boss says something that's totally opposite to what I was

going to say. I am far less likely to share my idea, even if

it's a better idea, because I have more like current

information, hands, far less likely to so, yeah. The easiest

thing I would say across the board, broad generalization,

yeah. But the. No, I like this. Stop that. Let's when, if we

want to brainstorm, if we want to come up with ideas as a

group, we're not individual reflection, first individual

reflection, first grand individual reflection, that

involves writing down our ideas so that and then everyone is

encouraged. And how you encourage it. This is where the

how becomes nuanced, but then we're encouraging people to

share the things they've written down in different ways and not

about Amy says it's x, y, z, and I go, yes, it's what I agree.

We're not doing that. We're not agreeing with Amy, no offense.

Amy, we love you, but Amy shares it that gets written down, and

then I share the thing that's on my list, and if it is the same

as yours, but it's written slightly differently, I'll share

it the way it's shared, the way I've written it down, yeah, but

some version of that is probably the easiest thing to implement,

to start to change or start to recognize different

perspectives, start to open up the conversation so there is

less bias and there are fewer assumptions that are not

spoken about. Yeah, I love it. I think that is a great

practical piece of guidance for leaders to start that individual

reflection written down. Everybody shares it, and then

stop the stuff of where, oh, it's Amy's ideas and it's

Sandy's idea and it's name the idea by the idea. Yes, right.

We're not creating camps here. Yes, yeah, exactly. Celine,

thank you so much for talking about this critical skill of

critical thinking with me on the podcast today. Really appreciate

your time and your thoughts on this.

Céline Williams: It is my pleasure. Thank you for having

me. I love talking about it, so it's greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast. If

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