Shownotes
Freedom Ordnance's Josh joins John and Kaylee to talk about the new product the company brought to SHOT Show: a trigger actuating grip that works on the same principle as a Gatling gun. Josh walks through why the launch stalled. They had 1,000 units on the shelf with parts to make 5,000 and planned to launch around Black Friday, then found their insurance policy excluded the product. Digging in, they learned binary triggers, bump stocks, and anything over a 30-round magazine were all excluded too. It took until a January 5 soft launch to secure an insurance company that would cover it so retailers like Classic Firearms could carry it. Josh argues the firearms industry gets treated differently from others, pointing to merchant account and payment processor problems, and the conversation connects to a similar story from Matador Arms whose processor held $15,000 of orders as 'dangerous goods.'
The middle of the episode is about the regulatory whiplash gun makers live with. Josh describes building a category around the pistol brace after the ATF deemed it legal through an opinion letter, then watching that ruling reverse five years later. Kaylee lays out GOA's text, history, and tradition approach and points listeners to the GOF YouTube channel for proof that braced firearms existed before the country did. They dig into how the ATF tech branch is staffed by lawyers rather than people who have manufactured firearms, the SBR and pin-and-weld rules that trip up new owners, and Josh's realization mid-episode that Freedom Ordnance should put clearer legal education at the point of purchase on its website.
The back half turns to growth and activism. John cites a figure that the industry markets to roughly 10% of the market and frames the other 90%, the new gun owners from 2020 and 2021, as untapped potential. Kaylee and Josh argue education is the on-ramp: ignorance is a curable disease, and new owners are the ones bringing friends to the range. Josh extends the point to people outside the firearms world, noting the ATF also covers alcohol, tobacco, and explosives, and that a freedom taken from anyone is a freedom that can be taken from you. With an election year ahead, they push local elections, GOA's candidate grades at gunners.org, snail-mail postcards, phone calls, and staying polite while sticking to the facts. Josh closes with where to find Freedom Ordnance and notes they're working to get a YouTube channel back up.
Links
Questions this episode answers
What is Freedom Ordnance's new trigger actuating grip, and why does Josh say it's federally legal?
Josh describes a trigger actuating grip that Freedom Ordnance brought to SHOT Show, which works on the same principle as a Gatling gun. He presents it as a legal product, and the company secured insurance coverage so retailers like Classic Firearms could carry it.
Why did the product launch get delayed from Black Friday to a January 5 soft launch?
Freedom Ordnance planned to launch around Black Friday with 1,000 units on the shelf and parts to make 5,000, but found its insurance policy excluded the product. It took until a January 5 soft launch to secure an insurer that would cover it.
What kinds of products were excluded from Freedom Ordnance's insurance policy?
Beyond the new grip, the policy excluded binary triggers, bump stocks, and anything over a 30-round magazine. Josh frames this as part of how the firearms industry gets treated differently, citing merchant account and payment processor problems.
What happened with pistol braces, and how did the ATF's reversal affect manufacturers?
Josh built a product category around the pistol brace after the ATF deemed it legal through an opinion letter, then watched that ruling reverse five years later. He uses it as an example of the regulatory whiplash gun makers live with.
What is Gun Owners of America's text, history, and tradition argument for braced firearms?
Kaylee lays out Gun Owners of America's text, history, and tradition approach and points listeners to the GOF YouTube channel as proof that braced firearms existed before the country did.
Why does Josh say the ATF tech branch struggles to evaluate firearms products?
Josh argues the ATF tech branch is staffed by lawyers rather than people who have actually manufactured firearms. He connects this to confusing SBR and pin-and-weld rules that trip up new owners.
How should the industry reach the new gun owners who make up most of the market?
John cites a figure that the industry markets to roughly 10% of the market, leaving the new owners from 2020 and 2021 as untapped potential. Josh and Kaylee argue education is the on-ramp, since new owners are the ones bringing friends to the range.
What concrete ways can people take action in an election year, according to John and Kaylee?
With an election year ahead, they push local elections, Gun Owners of America's candidate grades at gunners.org, snail-mail postcards, and phone calls, all while staying polite and sticking to the facts.
Chapters
- 00:11 — The new SHOT Show product and its legality
- 00:57 — 1,000 units ready, then the insurance problem
- 01:35 — The January 5 soft launch and Classic Firearms
- 02:46 — Matador Arms and processors holding orders
- 04:56 — Five years with GOA and the No Compromise alliance
- 07:18 — The war at the dinner table and the pistol brace
- 08:32 — Text, history, and tradition; braces before the country
- 09:43 — Why the ATF tech branch is staffed by lawyers
- 13:53 — Education, ignorance, and being comfortable with tyranny
- 15:19 — Ohio constitutional carry and dropping crime
- 21:48 — SBR rules, pin-and-weld, and educating buyers
- 26:08 — Marketing to the other 90% of gun owners
- 34:31 — Election-year activism and GOA's candidate grades
- 46:36 — Sending lawmakers how a firearm works; where to find them
About the guest
Josh is with Freedom Ordnance, a firearms manufacturer that has been a Gun Owners of America partner for about five years and has signed every No Compromise alliance letter GOA has sent. He grew up in California, where he says he knew nothing about firearms because the state is so restrictive, and he says he will be 44 in April. Before the firearms industry he worked in jewelry and web development. Freedom Ordnance is based in Indiana, about 10 minutes from the Kentucky border.
Key quotes
"And it is a trigger actuating grip. And it works out the same principle as a Gatling gun." — Josh
"as much as we feel about our rights, we also have to remember we have families to feed." — Josh
"It's the difference between stupidity and ignorance." — Kaylee
"people accept the tyranny that they are comfortable with." — Kaylee
"If we don't care about something over here because it's not our passion, that's how we lose the parts that are our passion." — Josh
"We are marketing to probably 10% of the market." — John
Transcripts
Welcome to Goa's State of the Second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kayleigh.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And here today, we are here with Josh from Freedom Ornaments.
Speaker B:How are you, brother?
Speaker C:I'm doing good.
Speaker C:How are you?
Speaker B:Doing well.
Speaker B:So let's get right into this.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:You guys dropped a new product for Shot show or a little bit before Shot Show.
Speaker B:It's got lots of questions on it.
Speaker B:We've seen the ATF attack it.
Speaker B:So you've got it in front of you.
Speaker B:Go ahead and talk about it.
Speaker C:Well, I'll say the ATF hasn't attacked it.
Speaker C:Customers and, you know, distributors and retailers are curious of its legality.
Speaker C:And it is a trigger actuating grip.
Speaker C:And it works out the same principle as a Gatling gun.
Speaker C:And it falls under the same legalities.
Speaker C:The ATF has long ruled that it is legal.
Speaker C:Even when they looked to ban other products recently, they still affirmed that Gatling guns and any sort of crank device is legal.
Speaker B:So on top of that, you guys went to go sell this.
Speaker B:You were ready to launch it at Black Friday.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:We had 1,000 on the shelf with parts to make, 5,000.
Speaker C:We were getting ready to launch.
Speaker C:And then we started digging into our insurance policies and exclusions and all that fun stuff.
Speaker C:And this wasn't mentioned because nobody knew existed yet.
Speaker C:But there were other things, you know, binary triggers, bump stocks, all that stuff were excluded from insurance.
Speaker C:Even something that was new when we renewed our insurance policy that we weren't aware of is that anything over a 30 round magazine was excluded.
Speaker C:So we started digging into all of those exclusions and weren't very happy.
Speaker C:It took us until we did a soft launch on January 5, because that week we finally secured an insurance company that would include this in our policy so that we could work with our retailers like Classic Firearms, because again, they had apprehensions, you know, and it just, it put a really big kink in everything.
Speaker B:Yeah, to develop a product just to find out your insurance company is going to say no and exclude it.
Speaker B:That is a big kink that you don't think about or plan for until the moment comes.
Speaker C:Well, even just the exclusion at all, all the exclusions they have, it's an insurance policy and I'm a manufacturer.
Speaker C:Are they doing this to other industries?
Speaker C:Does a grocery store have a bunch of exclusions for expired fruit or, you know, that.
Speaker C:So it raises those questions of why are we being treated this way, especially since our products are protected by the Constitution where others might not be, you know, and we run into that with merchant accounts as well, and, you know, it's not a lot of fun being in this industry sometimes when dealing with politics in the bureaucracy of the rest of the country and how they see us.
Speaker B:Yeah, we saw this most recently when we talked to Matador Arms.
Speaker B:They had the same issue where their banking processing company held $15,000 of orders without telling them they were showing up and coming through as orders that they had the cash, but they were holding it separate because they were deeming it dangerous goods.
Speaker B:So at that point, same thing that would have affected you if the processor, where does it stop?
Speaker B:Why are they deeming something a dangerous good without contacting you, without telling you they shouldn't have the right to stop you from selling something that's legally sold through your ffl, through your sot, to tell you that all of a sudden now you can't do that.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:I mean, you're preaching to the choir here.
Speaker C:It's interesting to navigate.
Speaker C:You're learning everything.
Speaker C:You're learning new things every day working in other industries.
Speaker C:You know, I've made jewelry and web development and stuff to see the way that we're affected in the firearms industry, especially with things that are still legal.
Speaker C:Even this product, it's federally legal, but There's, I think, 12 to 15 states that have various legislation that's either definitive and says no, or it's so gray that.
Speaker C:That you don't want to take the risk.
Speaker C:Because even though we might not agree with the way the ATF works, they still have the power to come in and destroy our business.
Speaker C:And that's proven over the history of other companies where they fight the ATF and they go bankrupt fighting them.
Speaker C:And then when they get to the point where they're going to win, the ATF backs off and drops the case because they don't want to set a precedence against themselves.
Speaker C:You know, it's the police doing the investigation.
Speaker C:That kind of situation where you're just.
Speaker C:You're stuck of choosing when to fight and how hard to fight.
Speaker C:Because at the end of the day, as much as we feel about our rights, we also have to remember we have families to feed.
Speaker C:And you can't do that from jail, you know, so we have to pick and choose and do it in a way that's appropriate when we fight the government.
Speaker A:So one of the things that I love about you guys, and you guys have been GOA partners now for, gosh, five years, I think you were one of the very first companies that I worked with when I first started, you guys are all about taking those fights and and fighting alongside us and our membership.
Speaker A:I think most loudly when it came to Plaka, when you guys signed our no Compromise alliance, where for those who might not remember this fight, basically they wanted to be able to sue the gun manufacturers the same way that you would sue a car manufacturer if you got in a car wreck.
Speaker A:Like, it was just the definition of insanity and just an overreach to allow that sort of thing to happen.
Speaker A:And so you were very vocal in signing that letter and saying no, like this is a industry that is protected by the Constitution, like this doesn't happen anywhere else.
Speaker A:And I applaud not only you guys working on that fight, but you've actually, I believe, signed every no Compromise alliance letter we've done.
Speaker C:That's not even a question when you send those over.
Speaker A:So so much of that plays into your company's, I think, core values as freedom fighters.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:It kind of goes back to what I was talking about, where all of us in the industry, every day we're trying to figure out what we can do to fight and how to do it properly so that, like I said, we can still take care of the families that depend on us in our industry.
Speaker C:Because the guy at the top signing that letter still has to think about all the people who he has to pay a paycheck to and how he's going to do that if we deal with a governing body coming in and choosing to put us in jail for a while there.
Speaker C:I know there are people that may be hesitant to sign that letter because of that reason, not because they don't believe, but they're trying to figure out how to do it properly.
Speaker C:And anything we can do to help that, too.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:We're all together in this.
Speaker C:No matter how much we have competing products, we still are in the same industry.
Speaker C:And all of us depend on fighting the legislation.
Speaker B:Well, you brought up the dinner table and the attack at it, and we saw that most recently with the pistol brace.
Speaker B:And that affected you guys tremendously.
Speaker B:So Kaylee coins the term the war on plastic.
Speaker B:I like to say this the war at the dinner table because they're not only regulating products out that were perfectly legal a week earlier just a year ago, from this week at Shot show last year, you know, they're regulating that out.
Speaker B:You guys had.
Speaker B:That was a ton of your business, 100%.
Speaker C:And we, as with, I'm sure, other manufacturers, we built a category around another product, the brace that was deemed legal through that process of sending it into the atf, getting their Opinion getting a letter, something they don't even do anymore.
Speaker C:I wonder why.
Speaker C:Because, you know, they don't want to have it used against them later.
Speaker C:It's hard to figure that out when you're trying to make a product around things that are then told, hey, this is legal.
Speaker C:Now five years later it's not.
Speaker C:And you have to figure it out.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And one of the things is everyone is suing on the basis of text, history and tradition.
Speaker A:That's what we sue on.
Speaker A:Those others have been successful on that.
Speaker A:Goa and GoF, our sister organization, was kind of founded on that principle, and we're one of the first in that category.
Speaker A:And when we looked at the history of pistol braces or braced firearms in general, we actually found.
Speaker A:And I highly encourage anyone to go to the GoF YouTube channel and check this video out.
Speaker A:Because there were braced firearms before there was a country.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So when we go into this idea of text, history and tradition, how much more traditional can you get when, like, the Second Amendment wasn't even penned yet.
Speaker A:The Constitution didn't even exist yet, and yet you had those braced firearms.
Speaker A:For a governmental agency to come in without the authority of Congress and redefine your rights away, that's a huge infringement on the Second Amendment.
Speaker C:Yes, yes, it is.
Speaker C:And we constantly have to try and figure it out.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker C:One of the things with dealing with that and the atf, you know, we've sent in products before and we've had to try and explain to the people we're sending it into how it even works, because the tech branch is a bunch of lawyers.
Speaker C:They're not.
Speaker C:It'd be different if the people working there previously manufactured firearms, you know, I mean, law enforcement is a valid career choice or career change choice.
Speaker C:But when the people deciding what's legal and illegal is just their lawyers, they don't even understand how it works.
Speaker C:They just say, I don't understand it.
Speaker C:So that's a no.
Speaker C:That doesn't make sense to me as a governing body of any sort.
Speaker C:And then the fact that it's just an opinion, and you always call that an opinion letter, you know, I honestly don't know who started that process.
Speaker C:I wish I could go back in time to say, hey, okay, don't send that.
Speaker C:Let's.
Speaker C:Let's just roll with it.
Speaker B:A lot of people may not know.
Speaker B:So as a manufacturer, you have to send stuff in to the tech branch to get looked at.
Speaker B:Not all the time, but they want to look at everything that you see to get an opinion and make sure that it is within the legal parameters of the law.
Speaker B:What does that process look like?
Speaker B:Because a lot of people don't know that that is a process that you guys.
Speaker B:That's another step that you guys have to go through before you can even do anything with a product.
Speaker C:So from my understanding in the history of it, that has been explained to me since well, before I was in the firearms industry, it wasn't a requirement.
Speaker C:It isn't a requirement.
Speaker C:And now that they don't even respond, it's, you know, it is what it is.
Speaker C:But from my understanding, which if there's anybody out there and wants to comment and correct me, there was someone that wanted to get feedback on what makes an ar.
Speaker C:Like, at what point in time, from a block of metal, is this a firearm?
Speaker C:And I have to serialize it.
Speaker C:And so he started just kind of sending that into the ATF to get a response.
Speaker C:And then he did.
Speaker C:And then it slowly, people just started doing that on things that they thought were questionable.
Speaker C:So that's what I was saying.
Speaker C:If someone would have never done it the first time, we wouldn't be doing it now.
Speaker C:But it just became an industry standard because you're investing a lot of money.
Speaker C:So before you invest a lot of money in a product, if it's even remotely questionable that the ATF is going to come knock on your door, you send it in and it is.
Speaker C:You take that product, you make it, especially if it's anything that has to do with Full Auto, you hopefully have the proper licensing as a manufacturer with your sot, and you send it in.
Speaker C:And if they deem it a machine gun and you have that correct sot, they'll send it back.
Speaker C:But even then, I've heard of stories where things have been deemed legal and they still didn't send it back.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:It gets lost in the paperwork.
Speaker B:Well, we saw that with the.
Speaker B:You brought up asking questions on products and stuff.
Speaker B:We saw that with the pistol brace.
Speaker B:I want to know who was the first person to go, hey, can we shoulder this?
Speaker B:Like, shh.
Speaker B:No, don't ask the question we don't need.
Speaker B:We had an answer, then we got the answer taken away.
Speaker B:Then we got a new answer, and now we had it taken away.
Speaker B:Then we got the injunction.
Speaker B:Like, come on.
Speaker C:And again, it comes from that fact that people are just afraid of being upstanding citizens and still landing in jail.
Speaker C:From anyone that I've met that is an upstanding citizen, they don't want to be in jail.
Speaker C:I mean, it's not somewhere you want to be.
Speaker C:So to know that you can have someone arbitrarily come to your door and send you there for something that you didn't know wasn't legal, Which, I mean, that happens all over the place because we don't have enough education out there for new gun owners.
Speaker C:We had a lot of people that didn't even know braces exist, didn't know they went to be an illegal item, then back to a legal item with the injunction.
Speaker C:They just have no idea.
Speaker C:And I was part of that growing up in California, I knew nothing about firearms.
Speaker C:It wasn't a normal conversation because it's so restricted out there.
Speaker C:And I didn't know what the rest of the country got to enjoy because that's where I grew up.
Speaker C:And that's just how it was.
Speaker C:And there was no education process.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, that's a really important thing to note, because I think that when we talk about gun culture and we talk about the culture war that we're fighting to keep our rights, people accept the tyranny that they are comfortable with.
Speaker A:And so if you grow up without firearms and it's a highly restrictive thing, moving to some place that has constitutional carry is sometimes jarring because you think that people are just unsafe and not trained and don't take personal responsibility, and you have all of these, you know, preconceived notions.
Speaker A:And so when, if you're in someplace like New York City or.
Speaker A:Or, you know, California or New Jersey, some of these really restrictive places, I almost.
Speaker A:It makes sense why people go.
Speaker A:These.
Speaker A:These gun owners, they're crazy.
Speaker A:Like, look at all of these people.
Speaker A:It's the wild west out there because they don't have the education.
Speaker A:And they don't know when their blinders are on because they.
Speaker A:They just accept these laws as factual.
Speaker A:And so we have to increase education.
Speaker A:We have to increase the entertainment value of the videos providing that education, because that's how we're going to get those walls to start coming down.
Speaker B:Well, we just saw a report, and at this time, it's been a few weeks old from Ohio.
Speaker B:Ohio went to constitutional carry about two years ago.
Speaker B:I want to probably I'm wrong.
Speaker B:It's within the last couple years, they went to constitutional carry.
Speaker B:They did a study, and they saw more people getting trained, more people wanting to get that education.
Speaker B:And crime has dropped significantly across all the major cities in Ohio.
Speaker B:And that goes against their preconceived notion of going, well, more guns on the street.
Speaker B:There's going to be violence, There's Going to be guns, you know, people shooting at each other for no reason.
Speaker B:That's not true and that's not what happened.
Speaker B:And I applaud the people in Ohio.
Speaker B:Good job.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:To my home state.
Speaker B:Great job, guys.
Speaker A:No, I think that's, I think that's accurate for a few reasons.
Speaker A:But I also think that it all goes back to that personal responsibility element.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, criminals are not stupid.
Speaker A:And so there's no surprise and there should be no shock value when we look at gun free zones and see that most mass murders happen in those gun free zones because people are sitting targets.
Speaker A:And so the opposite is true.
Speaker A:When you have more freedom, people are able to exercise their rights because your second amendment right to is yours whether you choose to exercise it or not.
Speaker A:And that is a natural right.
Speaker A:It is a God given right.
Speaker A:And that right is constitutionally protected.
Speaker A:It's not government.
Speaker A:Granted.
Speaker B:Well, you brought up a great point.
Speaker B:You know the pistol brace thing, all of us in this room live in this microcosm of knowing the industry.
Speaker B:We are following the industry news.
Speaker B:We're always up to date because we're gun nerds and we want to know everything.
Speaker B:There are a lot of people out there that don't know that they're breaking the law.
Speaker B:They don't understand it.
Speaker B:My favorite thing that I've ever done and was hilarious to me at the time and this person was new to guns, 18 years old, didn't know anything and we had a brace gun.
Speaker B:We're getting ready to do some stuff with it.
Speaker B:And she goes, why is it braced and why can't you do this and that with it?
Speaker B:And I go, okay, I'm going to explain.
Speaker B:SBRC.
Speaker B:So you have a stick, right?
Speaker B:And if it's 16 inches, it's a legal stick.
Speaker B:But once you cut off 2 inches, now it's an illegal stick and it's considered a short barreled stick.
Speaker B:And now you gotta pay a tax stamp.
Speaker B:And she's like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker B:The amount of people who don't know that you can't put a stock on a pistol or you can't do this because you're breaking the law.
Speaker B:They don't, it's not that they're not, they're trying to get educated but they don't understand it.
Speaker A:It's the difference between stupidity and ignorance.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:And, and ignorance is a curable disease.
Speaker A:Unfortunately there, the, there is no curable disease for stupidity.
Speaker A:But no, ignorance is a curable disease.
Speaker A:And I Think that's why you're seeing that happen with all of these new gun owners that are coming up and that are getting educated and are taking personal responsibility is they're like, you know, I've had the blinders on, and now, you know, I've gone to my first training, I've purchased a firearm.
Speaker A:I'm consuming YouTube content, or I'm listening to podcasts, and I'm understanding more than I ever have before.
Speaker C:Well, kind of like what you were talking about with the being comfortable with tyranny.
Speaker C:I grew up in the 90s where, you know, we didn't have YouTube.
Speaker C:So it's not even that I was comfortable with tyranny.
Speaker C:I didn't know I was being oppressed.
Speaker C:And, you know, I'll be.
Speaker C:I'll be 44 in April, so even, you know, I'm a tech geek, but there's a lot of people in my age group that.
Speaker C:That don't want to touch social media, don't want to even be on a cell phone, and they're.
Speaker C:They need to get educated.
Speaker C:And sometimes it's happening from their kids who are watching, you know, YouTube videos about this stuff.
Speaker C:But that's the thing, is that growing up in a state like California, you don't even know the oppression exists.
Speaker C:But I have also seen it, even with the new gun owners and law enforcement.
Speaker C:We've had law enforcement come down and they're like, well, we'd love to get some SBRs for, you know, our officers, but we don't want to do all the paperwork and stuff.
Speaker C:And we're like, well, do you know about braces?
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:What's a brace?
Speaker C:So you have law enforcement that doesn't even know that braces were legal, then illegal, then legal again.
Speaker C:They don't understand the process because it doesn't seem like the ATF is even disseminating that information to them.
Speaker C:They just show up in a location and say, hey, we need your help to go bust down the store.
Speaker C:And they're like, you know, okay, it's another law enforcement agency, but really it's not.
Speaker C:It's a tax collecting agency, from what I see.
Speaker C:And that's what we have to educate, too, is just all those other people that they're not that into guns.
Speaker C:Like, it might be part of their job, it still might be part of their family culture to a low degree, but they don't know if they're breaking the law because they just.
Speaker C:They don't keep up with it because it's not as much of a passion as the people who are here at.
Speaker A:This show, you know, so one of the things that is important to note is not everyone has the time, capacity to be, you know, constantly in that state of consumption where you have to have the newest of everything and you're watching, you know, 10 hours a day of YouTube content for gun reviews.
Speaker A:There are plenty of fantastic gun owners who have taken personal responsibility for, for their firearms that are, you know, just rocking a day job and they're just, they're carrying their, their firearm and they, they have the capability and the training and, and they're confident and that's awesome.
Speaker A:And then there's hunters that you know, might not shoot as much as, as you and I, but you know that they're, they're still out there and they're enjoying the second amendment.
Speaker A:And that's what makes our community great, is it's not a one size fits all, all or nothing type deal.
Speaker A:It is understanding what your goals are, getting confident in that training and being willing to be a part of the second amendment community and embracing your rights to defend and protect yourself.
Speaker B:Well, I mean when I started off in gun, getting into guns, you know, there's the Internet was a thing, but you're searching and you're like, cool, I want to buy an ar.
Speaker B:And you know that you've got to buy, it's got to be 16 inches to be a rifle and so on and so forth.
Speaker B:Now over the last 5, 6 years we've seen popularity in like the 137 inch barrel and the 145 and people will buy those and go, cool, I just screw my muzzle device and that makes my 16 inches.
Speaker B:Well, what a lot of them don't know or understand, may not understand.
Speaker B:Is that cool.
Speaker B:It's 16 inches overall, but it has to be 16 inches overall attached.
Speaker B:So a lot of them don't know that they're either having the legal SVR or they've got to go pin and weld these things because the education is not always there.
Speaker B:They know enough to be dangerous.
Speaker B:So when you're consuming content, you make sure you're consuming the right content or consulting the right people.
Speaker B:Because you may be intent, your intention is good, but you may be accidentally breaking the law.
Speaker B:And you know, it takes one self righteous ATF agent who wants to crucify you for no reason other than that you didn't know that you had to put a little bit of tack weld in there with a pin or you had to do this or you had to do that.
Speaker B:It's just the laws need to Be very simple to understand.
Speaker B:And gun laws are one of the craziest, goofiest things with no reason whatsoever on why they exist.
Speaker B:Going back to the story about the stick, people don't understand because they're either not educated.
Speaker A:So there's no logic to it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like it's all, it's all arbitrary.
Speaker C:Well, you actually just brought up a good point because we launched a 14.5 pin and welded for classic firearms.
Speaker C:And you saying that just made me think like, you know what?
Speaker C:We launched that.
Speaker C:There's nothing that I know of on their website that probably says this is pointing out the pin and welded.
Speaker C:I'm sure it's in the description.
Speaker C:But to someone who doesn't understand that, they just read that and go, okay, cool, it's pin and welded.
Speaker C:But like you said, that person may now go and say, well, I can just buy a 14.5 barrel and a muzzle device and just screw it on.
Speaker C:And I'm good.
Speaker C:To me, I feel like as a manufacturer, maybe I need to look at putting that verbiage on our website that, you know, hey, by the way, this is how the law works with a pin and welded firearm.
Speaker C:And the reason why it has to be pinned and welded and even providing that education right at the point of contact and purchase so that someone doesn't go, oh, I see it here, but I really don't like that product.
Speaker C:And I don't see the product that I like.
Speaker C:I'm just going to build it myself.
Speaker C:And then there you go, they go to jail.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, think about, you know, just the understanding of that.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of people buy ARS because they're adult Legos.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:That's what they are.
Speaker B:You can change everything.
Speaker B:Uh, but you buy a 145 because you're like, okay, it's shorter, it's cooler, it's, it's legal, they can ship it.
Speaker B:Then you go change your muzzle device.
Speaker B:And now you're sitting there cranking on your barrel, which is putting tension on your barrel nut and putting things.
Speaker B:Because you don't know it's pin.
Speaker B:And well, you don't understand what that means.
Speaker C:And that too.
Speaker B:And to my point, previously, like, first off, you know, hashtag repeal the NFA because I had to get some point, 100%.
Speaker B:So counter number one, hashtag, repeal the NFA.
Speaker B:Now that's two.
Speaker B:So I'm preaching to the choir.
Speaker B:But that's what I mean, the understanding of this nonsense and trying to get back.
Speaker B:I mean, as a company, you're going, okay, just now you're like, okay, maybe I need to explain that more.
Speaker B:Or, hey, you know, I got to explain the brace thing to people who may have bought it and put a blog post up on our website to explain it for people who have bought.
Speaker B:It's just crazy that we have to go to this extent to teach when it shouldn't be a thing in the first place.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, we can all get in an echo chamber, and I think all of us gathering here, we can get an echo chamber with all the stuff that we know forgetting that every day there's new people to the industry buying their first firearm.
Speaker C:And we have to figure out all the ways that we can educate them through that process.
Speaker C:I mean, that's something.
Speaker C:Again, this podcast right here made me think about that and go, maybe we can do a little bit better in that process as the manufacturer and putting that information out there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So one of the things we always talk about, and I think it is one of the things that makes us unique in goa's approach, is we're constantly concerned about what is the on ramp, what is the on ramp for people to join the Second Amendment, what is the on ramp for them to get activated in.
Speaker A:In taking ownership for their Second amendment rights.
Speaker A:And new gun owners have broken any stereotypical mold that, that was ever kind of in place for the industry.
Speaker A:What are you guys seeing from.
Speaker A:From your side as far as that new gun owner perspective and how do you market to them?
Speaker C:Well, I mean, we do constantly get people asking the process of making something legal or where it falls under, in that category of why it's legal.
Speaker C:So, I mean, we interact with people that reach out, but we have to do better in being proactive, getting that information out there with our product, because these are people after the fact that have already purchased our product.
Speaker C:And especially in that process of going from brace to tube and stuff like that.
Speaker C:I mean, of course we have the people who are like, are you going to buy this back from me?
Speaker C:I mean, it's not how that works, unfortunately, but we will help you get it compliant.
Speaker C:And even on this second wave with the injunction, the dealers and distributors are on the fence because of that fact, because they don't want to be stuck with stock.
Speaker C:So we're saying, well, we'll figure out how to make it right with you and the customer.
Speaker C:But people reaching out to us, they've already bought the product.
Speaker C:So we don't get a lot of the new gun owners asking us as a manufacturer because we're not the first Point of Contact Act.
Speaker C:It's the retailer, even when they purchase it from us, it's going to a retailer to do their background check.
Speaker B:Well, Jamin on his episode put it pretty bluntly, and I think he's right on this.
Speaker B:We are marketing to probably 10% of the market.
Speaker B:When you market a product, those are the people who most of the time are consuming firearms content and things like that.
Speaker B:It's the other 90% of the market that we is just untapped potential.
Speaker B:It's new gun owners, people who may just go into a gun.
Speaker B: I mean, we saw this in: Speaker B:They might not have done a, watched a review or done anything.
Speaker B:So it's the same thing.
Speaker B:It's like, how do we bring that other 90% and get them educated and get them to consume that content and market to them and reach them?
Speaker B:And as a marketer, it can be hard because you, you know that there's a, a large part of our community that is in that echo chamber and there's a larger, a larger part that doesn't know any better.
Speaker B:And so how, how is a firearms community do we start bringing these 20, 30 million new gun owners and bring them in and go, hey, this is what's going on.
Speaker B:This is why we have to fight?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think they are also the group that, that if we want to talk about growing the community, these new gun owners are, you know, ready to go when it comes to bringing their friends to the range.
Speaker A:They are the, the prime targets because, let's face it, I love taking new people to the range that have never shot before.
Speaker A:I'm running out of people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, there's only so much that you can do at a certain point.
Speaker A:You're like, well, I covered my entire circle.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:But for these new gun owners, when they have a great range experience and they go and invite their friends, the vast majority of them were probably just like them and this is their first time at the range.
Speaker A:And so if we want to see an expansion of the Second amendment community, it's going to happen, and I think most rapidly with this newest wave of new gun owners.
Speaker B:No, I agree.
Speaker B:I mean, we just, as a community, as an industry, we just have to go and start tapping that untapped potential.
Speaker B:We have to reach out to them and get them to understand that by the signing of a pen or the ruling of an agency that is overstepping its bounds that their rights could be taken away like that.
Speaker B: And we saw that in: Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:The phone call could be five to 10 minutes out before they get there, and I'm in trouble.
Speaker B:So how do we get them to go, okay, cool.
Speaker B:I want to be part of this community and keep growing this and keep showing that, you know, we're not what the stereotypes say we are.
Speaker A:Yeah,.
Speaker C:I mean, I do have stuff to add to that.
Speaker A:Yeah, please.
Speaker C:It'll also help if we can extend that to even the people that don't have an interest in firearms in the sense of they may have things that they do have a passion for.
Speaker C:And one thing I remind a lot of people that I know who aren't into firearms is that it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Speaker C:I know people that, you know, vaped, and a couple years ago, they went through a whole bunch of stuff with that industry.
Speaker C:And, you know, their rights were attacked in their ability to enjoy whatever it is they want to enjoy.
Speaker C:Same thing with alcohol.
Speaker C:I mean, it's not that far away that if the guns go away, then there's more regulation on.
Speaker C:I mean, we've done prohibition before.
Speaker C:It doesn't seem like we've learned from that.
Speaker B:The last time that happened, we had the NFA come about, so let's not do that one again.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker C:And that's my point.
Speaker C:Point is that trying to spend more time making the connection to people's rights that they may not even realize they have or that they're losing and talking to them about those situations, like, okay, well, you might not be passionate about guns or even care for guns or think they shouldn't exist, but it's still a freedom that is being taken away.
Speaker C:Speech is a freedom that can be taken away.
Speaker C:The instance with.
Speaker C:I'm not a fan of Alex Jones.
Speaker C:I don't listen to him.
Speaker C:However, when I heard that he lost his lawsuit and then was not allowed to declare bankruptcy.
Speaker C:When we have corporations that are declaring bankruptcy left and right in multiple industries for hundreds of millions or billions of dollars from lawsuits, and we don't have a judge saying, no, you can't do that, why did that happen for him?
Speaker C:Is it because it was a gun lawsuit?
Speaker C:You know, and again, that's free speech that he was exercising right, wrong, or indifferent.
Speaker C:He has a right to espouse his opinion and his thoughts on everything going on around him, just like we do.
Speaker C:And to me, that was.
Speaker C:That was a big deal that I don't think a Lot of people paid attention to.
Speaker C:And it's similar to the amount of people that didn't care about the bump stock being banned because it was a piece of junk or doesn't work or I don't use it.
Speaker C:It's still our rights.
Speaker C:It's still our rights being encroached on.
Speaker C:And if we don't care about something over here because it's not our passion, that's how we lose the parts that are our passion.
Speaker B:Well, you brought up the vape thing.
Speaker B:I know like a few years ago.
Speaker B:I'm big into the cigar community.
Speaker B:It's a lot of people.
Speaker B:Normally when you own guns, you're into the other two letters of the API.
Speaker B:It just happens to just come along with it.
Speaker B:I mean the, that convenience store over there, you know.
Speaker B:But the same thing happened to the cigar community where we got up in arms a few years back because they were going after, you know, small batch handcrafted cigars and things on imports.
Speaker B:And we're like, why does that have anything to do different with these big cigar companies that are bringing, you know, cigars in daily and all this stuff?
Speaker B:These are just as good.
Speaker B:They're stuff.
Speaker B:But they're just started attacking them.
Speaker B:And we've seen it with other things because they're worried about marketing to certain demographics and things like that.
Speaker A: is the power that we have in: Speaker A:Whether your thoughts and feelings about previous elections is kind of important.
Speaker A:But I really want to encourage everyone to be active this year.
Speaker A:You guys are in a great gun state because you're Indiana.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I was about to say no.
Speaker C:Decent.
Speaker C:It's definitely not California.
Speaker A:Definitely not California.
Speaker A:Definitely trending the right direction.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You guys have had positive bills.
Speaker C:Yeah, well.
Speaker C:And we're on the border of Kentucky, so we get to pay attention to that legislation too.
Speaker C:We're 10 minutes from Kentucky.
Speaker C:We actually got rid of even the process of needing to get a permit, constitutional carry, but you can still get one, which I recommend that process for the time being just because it's recognized in the other states that don't have constitutional care.
Speaker C:But that was again, there was fighting from law enforcement because they make a lot of money from it and it helps fund things.
Speaker C:And it's like, I don't want to defund the police, but we can find other ways to fund them.
Speaker C:Especially as a gun community, it's hard to Contend with things that we know are political in nature and financial in nature.
Speaker C:And then people try to say, well, but it's for safety.
Speaker C:And it's like, it's not.
Speaker C:We know it's not.
Speaker C:Let's get together and figure out how to replace that funding, because I'd rather do that.
Speaker C:You know, this year is definitely an important year, and hopefully the ATF backs off on all these cases.
Speaker C:We can win them because they're worried about the election year.
Speaker C:But, yeah, we got to encourage people to get involved.
Speaker C:We got to encourage them to not just vote for the president, but, you know, their local elections that are just as important or even more important sometimes, depending on where they're at.
Speaker C:For sure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, we are so, you know, kind of in Gua.
Speaker A:We're invested in the political side.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, you know, we publish grades and we grade legislation and we're counting votes and we're doing lobbying and we're doing all of those things.
Speaker A:So sometimes, you know, we kind of get into it.
Speaker A:Well, isn't the whole world political?
Speaker A:And in a way, the whole world is political.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're no longer able to, as gun owners, sit on the sidelines.
Speaker A:We have to take an active role in the protection of our rights.
Speaker A:It's just the name of the game.
Speaker B:No, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker B:And make sure to go to gunners.org and check out the scoring on people because the letter may not be what they vote.
Speaker B:So keep an eye on that.
Speaker B:That will be going up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, listen, it's that time of the year, right, when everyone's like, I support the Second Amendment.
Speaker A:It's like, do you?
Speaker A:Do you really?
Speaker B:Because we've been watching, again, sorry, Fed guys.
Speaker A:Yeah, but no, I mean, they're the ones that are publishing this and they're not surprised at all.
Speaker A:No, it's one of those things, though.
Speaker A:You know, people might not realize that a bill about, you know, for example, I'm just pulling this out.
Speaker A:But like, a bill that has nothing to do with it, like, say, climate change could have a red flag law in it.
Speaker A:Like, so even though, like, it might sound crazy, like, oh, we graded on this bill, or we, you know, did this, there's a reason behind it.
Speaker A:And gun control is hidden, especially at the federal level.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So discreetly.
Speaker A:I mean, they really.
Speaker A:They really do a good job at pushing their agenda, and we refuse to give an inch.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That's been the no compromise mission.
Speaker A:And it's more than just a slogan for us.
Speaker A:It's been A, let's see, a 48 year history.
Speaker A:I had a math,.
Speaker B:Which is hard right now.
Speaker C:Where's Mr. Morgan?
Speaker C:He can help you.
Speaker C:Clint loves to math all the time.
Speaker A:I'm like, all right, we were founded in 76.
Speaker A: It's: Speaker B:Listen, we have shot.
Speaker B:Show's a long week, guys.
Speaker B:Math is hard, so forget this.
Speaker A:That was right for you.
Speaker A:Okay, all right.
Speaker A:You just made me feel like I got it wrong.
Speaker A:I was like, no, no, no.
Speaker C:When was the month?
Speaker C:Do we need to get into that?
Speaker A:Oh, no, we were founded.
Speaker A:Ooh, trivia question.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker C:So there you go.
Speaker C:Do the math.
Speaker A:Now,.
Speaker B:You know, we're gonna.
Speaker B:I'm gonna talk off air with him and we're gonna try to do a giveaway, and that's gonna be a secret code.
Speaker B:So keep in mind later on when that code, that secret code is.
Speaker B:There you go, right there.
Speaker A:The little trivia.
Speaker B:The little trivia thing.
Speaker B:There's your hint for your giveaway later.
Speaker A:But no, I mean, that's the core philosophy of goa.
Speaker A:And so I so appreciate Freedom Ordinance constantly standing with us.
Speaker A:And I get that those letters are hard to sign, and it probably does make the target on your back a little.
Speaker A:But we appreciate you doing that and our membership appreciates you doing that.
Speaker A:Because if we are not willing to stand up in the fight now, we're going to lose the Second Amendment for sure.
Speaker C:It's very important to us.
Speaker C:That's why we continue to do it.
Speaker C:Continuing to encourage people to just learn and be better.
Speaker C:I don't know how related this is, but there was a guy I had working for us at one point in time that, you know, he was good in the machine shop, but he didn't have a whole lot of desire to go to that next level.
Speaker C:And I was trying to encourage that.
Speaker C:And he's like, you know, why would you guys teach me all this stuff on the machines?
Speaker C:Because I'll just go find a better job.
Speaker C:And it's like, I mean, you can do that.
Speaker C:It's a free country.
Speaker C:But we're also not going to stop teaching you to be better because we need more machinists, you know, we need more educated gun owners.
Speaker C:We need more people that understand this process.
Speaker C:It's one of those things that some people just act like they can't be taught or don't want, you know, don't want to be taught because they're going to go do something else with that information.
Speaker C:It's like, no.
Speaker C:Being educated about the laws and how Laws are made is important, even if you don't like guns.
Speaker C:Opening those conversations with people that don't like guns, but trying to educate them, because that's.
Speaker C:That's probably my biggest pet peeve with the political space and these regulations and laws is people kind of going back to that.
Speaker C:ATF is lawyers rather than machinists.
Speaker C:And knowing how this is made, same thing.
Speaker C:The legislators like, if you just let me show you the.
Speaker C:So you understand the mechanics and then I know you understand the mechanics, then I'm okay that you hate me.
Speaker C:But when you hate me because you don't even understand the mechanics of it and you have two things side by side and you're saying ban one and not ban the other even though they're identical internally, and you don't know that, that's even more frustrating.
Speaker C:I've met more people that say, I want to get rid of all guns because I just don't believe in them.
Speaker C:I have more respect for that than someone that's saying, I want to ban this random gun that looks scary but functions exactly like this other one that I said you can have, because I like the look of that one.
Speaker C:And it kind of goes like, I watched the POF1, sorry, PSA, but him talking about talking to these politicians, I said, well, just because I can, you know, and it's like, it doesn't work that way.
Speaker C:And then they're not even educated on what we make and what we do.
Speaker C:And you're trying to regulate us and make laws against us and you've never been involved.
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, to that point even further is sometimes we don't even see the.
Speaker A:Or not we.
Speaker A:But like, as individuals, we don't even see the disconnect.
Speaker A:I was watching a man on the street interviews where they were going up to people and they were like, should you have guns?
Speaker A:And the people were like, no, you shouldn't have guns.
Speaker A:Well, should the government have all the guns?
Speaker A:Well, no.
Speaker A:So who should have the guns?
Speaker A:The government.
Speaker A:Wait, what?
Speaker A:They're like, no, because we want the police and the military because they're going to protect us.
Speaker A:Okay, so you do want the government to have guns.
Speaker A:Yes, but do you trust the government?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:But you shouldn't have guns?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So the government's the only person with the guns.
Speaker A:They're like, yes, but you still don't trust the government.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And it's like, what are you not understanding in this situation because your logic is flawed.
Speaker C:Do you guys know the comedian Lewis Black?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:I'm not familiar There's a.
Speaker C:There's a comedy clip that you can find on YouTube where he was like, in an IHOP.
Speaker C:And he's over here in the conversation behind him, and.
Speaker C:And the lady said, if it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.
Speaker C:And he talks about how it drove him crazy trying to figure out how that even makes sense.
Speaker C:It's the same thing.
Speaker C:You just go crazy trying to understand the logic of some people.
Speaker C:But whether it's civilians on the street or political people that are creating the laws, it makes your brain want to explode because they just don't comprehend what's going on and what they're doing.
Speaker C:And that's the unfortunate thing, because, again, education across the board, regardless of political party matters, and that also should help facilitate both sides working together, because it's part of our system.
Speaker C:We got those two sides.
Speaker C:They need to figure this out and they need to come together in whatever they're doing and comprehend it properly before they start writing things in the law.
Speaker C: gislation, and then it's like: Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:It's very deceitful and unfortunate.
Speaker A:No, I mean, I think that anyone that pays attention to politics knows the picture of Rand Paul with the omnibus bill with it all printed out, and it's like, okay, sure, we vote in six hours.
Speaker A:No one's read this.
Speaker A:And there's this thing that happens in the legislature where they want to do the pass it now and read it later, and that's not governance.
Speaker A:And if we as individuals don't call them on the carpet for it, it's going to continue to happen.
Speaker A:And so we have to be active in all of those situations.
Speaker A:And whether it's connecting the dots for people who are just, you know, random men on the street interviews, or whether it's connecting the dots for politicians, the same tactics apply.
Speaker A:We have to be active in having those conversations.
Speaker B:You know, I've looked at a couple of those bills, you know, and I'm going to quote the office on this one.
Speaker B:Why use many words when few words do trick?
Speaker B:Like, come on, you don't need that much.
Speaker B:Let's simplify this a little bit.
Speaker A:You know, the founders only needed 27 words to get everything that they needed to get across in that second amendment across.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:And it has been.
Speaker A:I would love to know what the word count is for all of the legislation that has been passed to weaken those 27 words.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:I Had another thought that might be fun and might be dangerous.
Speaker C:What if all of us just started sending how a firearm works to all the liberal politicians?
Speaker C:Not email, snail mail.
Speaker C:So it really piles up just to get them to maybe open one and look at it and see, here's how a firearm functions.
Speaker C:And the one you're trying to ban and the one that you're okay with.
Speaker A:Are identical, you know, going to the whole snowmel thing.
Speaker A:So like I said, GOA has been around for a while and we predate email.
Speaker A:And so, and we still do this and we still have people that, that send in postcards.
Speaker A:And so you'll, you'll get it if you are on our mailing, physical, snail mail, mailing list.
Speaker A:And you'll see and you can tear off your little postcards, you sign your name, you stick your stamp and it goes to your legislatures and it makes an impact.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:And so wherever you're at in your activism journey, if you're high tech and want to do, you know, I would love if you could text your legislature, like that would be so cool.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:But we can email our legislatures.
Speaker A:We can still give them a phone, phone call that still works.
Speaker A:And there's a number that you can call if you don't know your rep and say, hey, I live here, and they'll connect you.
Speaker A:It's great.
Speaker A:And there's a way to do activism wherever you're at and whatever your comfort level is and always be polite.
Speaker A:You don't get anywhere by being a nuisance.
Speaker A:But right now is the season of campaign events and town halls and all of those questions.
Speaker A:And be active, stay vigilant.
Speaker C:Yeah, like what you said, I think that's definitely important is having tact and being polite because you don't want to give them more to use against you in this process.
Speaker C:And by being belligerent or calling names or insulting intelligence doesn't help.
Speaker C:So if you just spit out the facts, do it in a polite way, they have to fight you on the facts.
Speaker C:But when you go into that other territory of just being rude, well, then they fight you on the rudeness and say, well, I don't have to listen to you because you're being rude and you just give them them out, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Well, where can everyone find you on social media, on, on the web, all.
Speaker C:Of the things shadow banned.
Speaker C:If you go to freedom ordinance.com that's the best place to go.
Speaker C:I believe the Instagram is freedomordinance and that you literally have to type in Facebook is official freedom ordinance.
Speaker C:And we're trying to get a YouTube channel back up and going and be back on social media more, because it does matter and we want to try and have more of a voice.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Well, thank you for joining us.
Speaker B:Yeah, thanks for joining, guys.
Speaker B:Make sure to, like, share and subscribe.
Speaker B:Leave a five star review on all podcasting apps and have a great rest of your day.
