Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

This episode of the Music Room podcast is dedicated to Mental Health Awareness Week, focusing on the mental health challenges faced by individuals working in the music industry. Gareth chats with composer Alex Attwood and head of charity Music Minds Matter Grace Meadows.

Host: Gareth Davies

Produced by Gareth Davies at The Sound Boutique.

Links

Alex’s website

Music Minds Matter

Connect with Gareth

Find out more about the Music Room community

Welcome to the music room.

2

At this time in the music room.

3

Alex Attwood: I used to go to

London all the time, go out for

4

coffees, everyone was very nice, you

know, loads of stuff fell through.

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Maybe some of it was personal, maybe some

of it was circumstantial, I don't know.

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But in the end I kind of went, 20

production companies can't all be wrong.

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At which point I kind of went, well look,

actually this library is really lovely and

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I am still writing music, so just do that.

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Grace Meadows: you know, the sense

of control, autonomy, agency, and

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all of these things are critical

to positive mental health.

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The idea that you've got some, some

ability to control what's happening

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around you with the knowledge

that you can't control everything.

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That's, that's really important.

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Gareth: Hello, and welcome to the music

green, the show where I usually chat with

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music industry professionals, about what

they're up to before going back in time

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to find out how it all began for them.

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I say usually because

this episode is different.

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Y because this is mental

health awareness week.

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Let me ask you a question.

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How has working in the music industry,

whether you're a composer, a songwriter.

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Uh, musician a mix or mastering

engineer at a label, whatever it

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is, how has working in the music

industry affected your mental health?

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It's a question that we perhaps

don't ask ourselves often enough.

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I've wanted to make a special episode

around mental health for a long time.

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And recently I felt like there were a lot

of people in the music industry who are

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perhaps more aware of their own struggles.

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So if you're listening to

this, having experienced mental

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health issues of your own.

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Then this is for you.

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If you've listened to this episode

and recognize that perhaps you might

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need to explore your own mental health

further, then this is also for you.

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I'm going to look at the terminology

surrounding mental health and some

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of the diagnosed mental health

conditions or disorders as they're

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sometimes known, uh, and in return,

I'd like you to consider the question.

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Does that sound like me?

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And if it does start thinking about

what you can do to either seek, help or

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improve your mental health in some way.

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And believe me when I say

you're certainly not alone.

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Being a composer songwriter

or musician, for instance.

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Often involves long

stretches and isolation.

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And one of today's guests is going

to talk about their experiences of

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that in more depth, that guest is

Alex Atwood, a composer specializing

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in production library, music.

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My other guest today is Grace

Meadows, head of music minds matter.

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Uh, for those of you who don't

know what music minds matter is,

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their tagline is always have mental

health support in your pocket.

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And grace is going to explain

what they do way better than

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I can in a few minutes time.

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But if you work in music and are

struggling to cope or know someone

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who is, you can talk to music

minds matter, it doesn't have

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to be a crisis or about music.

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They're here to listen,

support and help at any time.

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Right.

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Let's have a look at what it all means.

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I sometimes hear people describe having

mental health issues as suffering from

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mental health, which when you think about

it, it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

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You wouldn't say suffering

from physical health.

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So I want to get that out straight away,

because if we're having a conversation,

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it's important to get these things right.

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And to look past the catch-all

term of mental health.

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Oh, okay.

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From the world health organization,

they have key facts on their website.

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One in every eight people in the

world live with a mental disorder.

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I'm not sure I like the word

disorder, but that's what they use.

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Uh, mental disorders involve

significant disturbances in thinking

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emotional regulation or behavior.

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There are many different

types of mental disorders.

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Effective prevention and

treatment options exist.

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And most people don't have

access to effective care.

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And so that last point, I think in the

UK, there are certainly organizations

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you can reach out to one being music

minds matter as I've already mentioned.

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Uh, they list disorders as anxiety

disorders, depression, bipolar disorder.

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Post-traumatic stress disorder,

schizophrenia, eating disorders.

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disruptive behavior and

the social disorders.

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And neurodevelopmental disorders.

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So they go on.

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Who's at risk from

developing a mental disorder.

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At any one time, a diverse set

of individual family, community,

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and structural factors.

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May combine to protect or

undermine mental health.

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Although most people are resilient.

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People who are exposed

to adverse circumstances,

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including poverty, violence.

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Disability and inequality.

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Are at higher risk.

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Protective and risk factors

include individual psychological

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and biological factors.

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Uh, such as emotional

skills as well as genetics.

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And I find that really interesting

because although it mentions genetics

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there at the end, Some things

can be passed down, obviously.

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It leads with a variety of factors

combining to create a scenario where

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your mental health can be affected.

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And anyone who sat in a studio for

months at a time writing and recording

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their best work, often emailing a

networking to a wall of silence.

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That to me, sounds like you

could be vulnerable to mental

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health issues popping up.

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Okay.

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So that's a bit of background to

what I'm looking at in this episode.

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But before we get into the music

room, let's have some music stories.

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I asked the music green Facebook group.

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How has being a composer, songwriter,

or musician affected your mental health?

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Uh, there were replies and some agreed

to have their replies read out now.

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I'm not going to mention names

outside of the Facebook group, just

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to maintain that trust and support

within the music green community.

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First one reads I'm currently

living with chronic illness that

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is at times hugely limiting.

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Over the last couple of months for

the first time, it's affecting my

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ability to write music and work

for any significant length of time.

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And this is heartbreaking for me.

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In the past, I've had anxiety and

depression and realized at the time

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that it was in part due to taking a

long career break from writing music.

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Once I started up again,

everything changed.

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It turns out I need to compose

to keep me level and happy.

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Now I'm anxious about what will happen

to both my career and mental health.

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If I don't get physically better soon.

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Next I'm write music and

books to aid my mental health.

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Unfortunately only have to do it as a

hobby rather than rely on for income.

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I've been three dark moments in my life

and I've survived to tell the story.

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That's great.

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Please reach out as everyone here in

the group is here to help each other.

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And that's really nice of you to say.

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Uh, lastly, I was diagnosed

with bipolar when I was 30.

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I have a rare kind in which

I only suffer with highs.

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I say suffer, but the truth is one or two

highs have helped me produce my best work.

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That's interesting.

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As long as one is mindful of what

triggers them and takes the medication

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consistently and follows doctor's orders.

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There is absolutely no reason

why they can't live a full and

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wonderful life medication for

life, and also happy to talk.

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Should anyone wish to.

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That goes to show doesn't it that

you don't have to be at a critical

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point to address these things.

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And in that case, recognizing

what the issue was.

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Has helped them.

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It's also one of the things I love

about the music room community.

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Everyone is so thoughtful, even when

they're talking about themselves.

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So music reamers, thanks for

turning up and taking part.

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I really appreciate it.

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And those are today's music stories.

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Composer and multi-instrumentalist

Alex Atwood is known for his

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versatile and atmospheric use

of live and electronic music.

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Creating scores that enhance

and compliment in any production

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commissions include the longest reign,

top gear Caribbean with Simon Reeve.

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Oh, that's great.

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Rivers, dispatches and master chef.

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Great Meadows is the new head of charity

music minds matter and is called upon

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people across the music industry to

widen the mental health profession

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across the full spectrum of roles.

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Evolving out of the

charity help musicians.

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Music minds matter began in 2017

as a 24 hour helpline for music

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industry workers to call for support

and help while this helpline is

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still a key part of the offering.

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It's now charity in its own.

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Right.

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With big plans for expansion.

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I was blown away by the

Canada of Alex and grace.

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It's made me think about

my own working day.

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So let's get into the music cream

and hear what they have to say.

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Composer Alex Atwood and head

of Music Minds Matter, Grace

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Meadows, welcome to the music room.

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Alex Attwood: Thank you very

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much.

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Grace Meadows: thank you.

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Gareth: Grace, let's start with you.

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As I mentioned there, you're

the head of Music Minds Matter,

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which is part of Help Musicians.

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Tell us a little bit about the

organisation and your role within that.

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Grace Meadows: Great, yes.

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So Music Minds Matter is the sister

charity of Help Musicians, which has been

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running for over a hundred years, and

it does what it says on the tin, really.

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It helps musicians, and it helps

them, um, at challenging moments,

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throughout their musical lives,

but it also helps them to flourish.

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And to help them be the

musicians that they aspire to be.

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And of course, success looks

different for everybody.

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So we think very much about what that

musician or creator wants to achieve

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in their career and we, and we support

them as, as best as we possibly can.

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So that comes with all kinds of

different advice that we provide,

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whether it's business advice, whether

it's health or welfare advice.

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But what we noticed around 2017

was that we were receiving more and

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more, Inquiries about the support

for mental health needs of musicians.

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And that was a trend that

was coming to us as well from

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across the industry as a whole.

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And so we set up a program within Help

Musicians called Music Minds Matter.

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And what we realized was actually it

needed to be its own thing because

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of the scale and the challenge that

was being presented to us around

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mental health and the music industry.

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So a couple of years ago, um,

it broke away and became its

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own charity, but it's very much.

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Connected into into help musicians.

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So if you're a musician and you're

coming to us with a mix of issues

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mental health might be one of those,

then you'll be channeled into Music

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Minds Matter and and vice versa.

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If you come to Music Minds Matter and

actually the support you can access

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from help musicians, then You're very

much signposted that, but Music Minds

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Matter, the big point of difference

between that and Help Musicians is that

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Music Minds Matter is here for everybody

working in the music ecosystem, because

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we can't just single out one group of

people or one strand of the industry.

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Because, mental health belongs to us all.

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And so actually, in just supporting

one group or one segment, we're not

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really tackling the challenge that

we're facing around mental health.

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And so whilst we provide services,

we're also working to change

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culture around mental health.

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And for us to be able to have

conversations around mental health,

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where people feel safe to do so.

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But also for the industry as a whole

to be putting mental health much more

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stage when it comes to working practices

the way that we want this industry to

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be understood, uh, in terms of how it's

supporting the people that help it thrive.

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Gareth: And, of course, one of

the great things about Music

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Minds Matter is the accessibility.

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You know, if you are a PRS for Music

member, you can access free counselling.

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So it's as simple as that.

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You know, you can get

in touch straight away.

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So that accessibility, I

think, is really important.

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is fantastic and really important as well.

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Alex, you're a composer.

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Uh, I try not to pigeonhole you,

but you have become quite the

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expert in production library music.

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Yeah.

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Alex Attwood: I've done in the

last sort of five, 10 years now.

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Gareth: So give us a little background

about how you became a composer in

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the first place and how did you end up

concentrating on production music in

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Alex Attwood: Um, so I

started at university.

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I saw it very much as a platform for, for.

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Writing and playing funk music, basically,

um, albeit with a massive student debt.

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I didn't really think it

through and it was wonderful.

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I ran a 10 piece funk band for four

years and it was like a giant family.

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Uh, then uni finished and I

just moved into DJing, playing

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lots of jazz function bands.

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And, uh, it was a nice way of life

and I got engaged when I was about 24.

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And as I was coming in from work, my

fiance was getting up to go to college.

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Uh, about four nights a

week, mornings a week.

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And I didn't think that that was conducive

to a happy marriage moving forward.

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So I was sort of rattling my brain as

to how to make music work for me, but

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in a way that might actually dovetail

into family life and, um, yeah, sort

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of composing popped up as an option

and I spent about two years, just

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Presumably what everyone else did just

writing demos desperately trying to

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get work from anywhere Landed a couple

of lucky corporates and uh, and then

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spent a whole year I must have sent off

about 300 dvds that were tailor made

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for different companies I'd researched

and they all used to get individual

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postcards I had three rejection emails

out of the 300 and no other responses.

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It was, it wasn't quite soul destroying.

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Interestingly, the soul destroying

part of the career came later because

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I was young and enthusiastic at that

point, and I evidently had enough there.

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Hutzpah, just to keep going, and out

of nowhere I landed a Disney cartoon

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from a company I'd not even approached.

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You know, you make your own luck, I guess.

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You know, the universe answered me in

some peculiar way, and that was lovely.

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So I did a couple of cartoon

series with Disney and a couple of

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subsidiaries, and just as that was

250

All sorts of things got cancelled,

including everything I was working on.

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Coincided with us moving from

Edinburgh to Herefordshire,

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which is obviously very rural.

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Um, wasn't a whole lot of sort of music

stuff going on, and I certainly hadn't

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got the wherewithal to go looking for it.

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Because I've never had to, it

had always been on my doorstep.

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And I think that's something

that I've really taken home

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after, you know, a long time now.

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Is You've got to realize what

it is that you need early on

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and know how to look for it.

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But it's easy to say now.

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So yeah, I did a bit of library work,

managed to get a BBC job and then

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spent about five, six years doing

BBC documentaries and travel docs.

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Uh, and it was great.

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Um, for one reason or another,

that petered out, people moved

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departments, different budgets

went, it's the way of the world.

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And.

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I ended up back with the library that

I'd done work for and have a very

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good relationship with the UK MD.

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And that's all I've done

for about five, six years.

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And it's lovely.

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He's a super guy.

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I like everyone in the team.

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The music is diverse.

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I get to write everything from sort of big

band Latin to string quartets to country.

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It's yeah, it's, it's a good way of life.

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I do enjoy it.

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Um, it has its drawbacks,

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which is why we're here.

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Gareth: indeed.

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We'll get on to that.

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Absolutely.

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But yeah, to have one main client,

that's, that's quite something, isn't it?

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Alex Attwood: Well, interestingly,

they have always encouraged

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me to diversify there.

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It's not like they, uh, say

don't work for no one else.

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And I've, I've looked for work with other

libraries and it's either not appealed to

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me or not appealed to the other library.

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Wow.

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Gareth: you found your library, you know,

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Alex Attwood: it's a well fitting suit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's it.

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Gareth: brilliant.

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Grace, you heard the music stories in

today's episode about, uh, there was

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one about living with chronic illness.

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There was writing music and books to aid

mental health and being bipolar and only

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suffering the highs, which is unusual.

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What do you see in your role as the

main mental health challenges in

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the music sector and the impacts

actually of those challenges on

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professional and personal life?

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Yeah,

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Grace Meadows: Well, I thought all of

those comments that we received were

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fascinating and I think what they touch

upon is, uh, all of them is, and, and

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also we've also mentioned them here

already is, the pressure to always be on.

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So it's an industry where if you're

not there at the gig, either in person

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or online, someone else will be.

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And I certainly found

that when I was studying.

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Um, and there were lots of pressures

about how you turn up, being

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perfect, um, getting it right.

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Being invited back.

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That is, that is hard.

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That performance element.

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And, and I don't think that's

unique to just to musicians.

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I think that is in any role, especially

when so much of the industry is

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structured around a freelance basis.

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So,

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Gareth: the word freelance.

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Yeah.

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Grace Meadows: yeah.

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You're only as good as

your last gig, right?

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It's a different setup when you're in a

PAYE environment and there's structures

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and there's processes in place.

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But actually, if you're freelance

and, you think you've turned in some

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great work, but actually they don't

like it for whatever reason, then

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that's kind of, out of your control.

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And so there are lots of things that

then span out of that, whether it's, you

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know, the sense of control, autonomy,

agency, and all of these things are

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critical to positive mental health.

330

The idea that you've got some, some

ability to control what's happening

331

around you with the knowledge

that you can't control everything.

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That's, that's really important.

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But I think what accompanies, you

All of that is the stress and the

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burnout that comes with that perpetual

need to be on, to be visible,

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to be ready, to be responsive.

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But also the anxiety that that

can bring and then the depression

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that comes with that, you know.

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But we've all got a little bit of elastic

in us and we know when we can give a

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little bit more and then pull back and

go, actually I can take the foot off the

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gas a little bit at the moment because

I know this is coming along the way.

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line and I probably need to save

myself a bit for that, but actually

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when that elastic is constantly being

stretched, it's going to lose that,

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that ability to be tense and you're

going to find yourself collapsing.

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So I think that those are some really,

really key, key things that we're

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being presented with at the moment.

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And then of course, you know, what

that does over time, you know, as

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humans, we expect to experience stress.

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It's an innate Feeling within us is

what's kept us alive as a species, you

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know, to be able to ward off threats,

but It's when those stressors become

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chronic and they're having detrimental

impacts on our well being that we're

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moving into different territory around

our mental health and our well being.

352

And it's when they escalate and there's,

behaviors that are, uh, really unhealthy

353

that accompany that or find that actually

it becomes a really acute condition.

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So, I think overall, having come back

from the pandemic and now in this

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cost of living crisis, we thought

things might be slightly different.

356

But actually, I think there's this panic

to do things really well, constantly on.

357

And then, as I say, the anxiety and

depression that comes with that,

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and the stress and the burnout.

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And of course, then, you know,

the isolation and loneliness

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that that can give rise to.

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You might not want to talk

about any of these things.

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And so you can feel very alone,

which again, just perpetuates things.

363

So it's really easy to find yourself and,

and other people actually in spirals.

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Gareth: Yeah, yeah, I'm certainly right.

365

talking of isolation, Alex, you

have experienced this, haven't you?

366

Can you describe for us what mental

health issues you've experienced?

367

Can you actually pinpoint when you

started to experience these issues as

368

well as maybe identify why they started?

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Alex Attwood: Yeah.

370

So Grace speaks so eloquently

about it, actually.

371

I think I probably learned more in

the last five minutes than the last

372

20 years about my own predicament.

373

Um, I think the bit that, just to get

back to what Grace was saying about

374

the people accessing the services that

she's offering with Music Minds Matter

375

and Help Musicians is, I think even if

you're accessing them, That in itself

376

shows a sort of self awareness, which I

think a lot of people could really use

377

more of, including myself, certainly.

378

I think a big issue I suffered from

was that I simply didn't have the

379

emotional wherewithal to realize

that I had become incredibly

380

isolated, that I was stressed out.

381

I was looking at everything in

a very black and white manner.

382

I'm married, I'm healthy, I have friends.

383

What's the problem?

384

Come on, pull yourself together, man.

385

It's just a bit of work.

386

And so to answer your question, I first

noticed it was after we moved rurally

387

in Herefordshire and the work had dried

388

away, making demos and doing this and

that, but I was basically creating smoke

389

and mirrors, not to pretend I was working

because I genuinely felt like I ought to

390

do something, but actually it was just So

that I felt that I was doing something.

391

And, um, increasingly I used to find

myself sort of sitting on the stairs.

392

Three hours at a time, just

with my head in my hands.

393

And rather than going alarm bells, I'd

sort of get up and go, Right, that's

394

sitting on the stairs taken care of.

395

Let's go and sit outside for a bit.

396

And feel miserable there.

397

Again, without really thinking,

Oh, this is a problem.

398

And it came to a head.

399

I think my wife came back and went

like, you could just get a job and

400

maybe earn some money and go and meet

some people, get some self esteem.

401

And this was an absolute anathema

because I'd already decided that

402

I was a full time composer and I

hadn't realized how much of my self

403

worth I'd poured into that construct.

404

And to have the, this fragile

construct shaken about like

405

that turned into what we.

406

Described as mug gate.

407

I was so angry with her, I threw

my mug of coffee into a tree.

408

Gareth: Oh no!

409

Alex Attwood: it was, that was a

point at which we sort of looked

410

at each other and went, I think

there's a bit of an issue here.

411

That's, that's not okay, is it?

412

I was like, no, I'm sorry about that.

413

That's, right, that's a thing.

414

So, I think I sought

counselling after that.

415

And, but again, rather than looking at

the um, sort of professional aspect of

416

it, we just sort of looked at everything.

417

Because I mean, you know, we're

all victims of our own circumstance

418

if you choose to look for it.

419

Thanks.

420

And it's only really been in the

last sort of year or two that I've

421

gone, Uh, I've worked on my own for

20 years and we live really rurally.

422

And I quite often go

for full days at a time.

423

In fact, frankly, full weeks at a time.

424

Where between, you know, nine and

four, I won't speak to anyone.

425

I won't see anyone.

426

There's no one to nudge and say, Oh,

have you just seen spectrosonics?

427

I've just done the latest update

or, Oh, I've just written a

428

really, really bad four bars.

429

That's taken me three hours.

430

What a klutz.

431

There's no feedback.

432

So it's not even an echo

chamber because there's no echo.

433

It's just nothing.

434

And, So without wishing to be unhelpful,

I feel, I feel lucky because I've

435

had regular work and that's lovely.

436

So I haven't had the anxieties

that, that Grace was talking of,

437

and there's certainly been points

at which I have worried very much

438

for what I'm going to do for money.

439

But actually, you know, I've

been so, so lucky with my

440

publishing company and library.

441

They've been brilliant.

442

But what I have only just realized is that

Actually, you, you do need to be around

443

other people for a portion of the day.

444

You need, you need feedback.

445

I, I would find myself going

into social situations, you

446

know, maybe once or twice a week.

447

And I've almost lost

the art of conversation.

448

You forget.

449

You'll say something in a jokey

manner, and then wildly overthink

450

it afterwards because you've

not really had any practice.

451

So you start to lose your sense

of, well, confidence, I guess.

452

I even got social anxiety, which is

not something I've ever had before.

453

And I know it's reasonably common,

but it's not something I'd had.

454

And, say, it's just Solitude.

455

And the big hurdle for

me was admitting it.

456

People have hangups

about different things.

457

I've never been ashamed

to say I'm out of work.

458

I haven't got any money, or I'm not

feeling very well, or I've failed at

459

something, or I've upset somebody.

460

A big hangup for me took me about

15 years to say, I'm lonely.

461

That was about the hardest

thing I'd ever had to admit.

462

And it sounded all the

stranger to me because.

463

I do have friends and I

do have a loving family.

464

So I couldn't really work out any

of the very sort of British thing

465

of, well, well better not make a

fuss then, because actually the

466

architecture of my life is fairly robust.

467

So, um, maybe there isn't a problem,

but it's got to the point where.

468

I can't, I can't deny there's a problem

and it's not fair to those around me

469

to deny that there's a problem, you

know, we have to accept it in order

470

that I can do something about it.

471

And it's lovely because I do talk about

it a lot more and, uh, interestingly

472

that has encouraged quite a few other

friends of mine who I thought were in

473

a perfectly normal situation to go, Oh,

actually I work on my own and it's fine.

474

Really, really, really hard.

475

And it's making me a not

nice person to my family.

476

And it's, um, it's a

bit of a taboo, I think.

477

Um,

478

Gareth: enough, it was only in preparing

for this episode that I realized, um,

479

because I started podcasting in, uh, 2019.

480

And that was its own

project, but I continued.

481

And obviously the pandemic happened

and I started a podcast in order to

482

just, you know, have a little window

to the world and keep conversations

483

going with creative people.

484

But it's only preparing for this episode

that I realize it's because I'm isolated.

485

That's why I have podcasts.

486

That's, that's why we, you know,

we're having a nice conversation

487

now we can see each other.

488

And I love that, you know, it, keeps.

489

the wolf from the door, or you

know, whatever you want to call it.

490

In the Music Room community, we have

a regular weekly cuppa, cuppa and

491

chat it's called, and um, it's usually

nine o'clock on a Thursday morning,

492

and we just talk absolute nonsense.

493

But it is that kind of office

feeling, Grace, you're in your

494

office now, but We're not.

495

We're in a

496

room by ourselves.

497

And, uh, it's just a nice thing

to do to even if it's online, you

498

know, it's, um, it's nice to have a

499

Grace Meadows: I think, I think what

you're both tapping into is what it

500

means to be human and we are inherently

social creatures So we need that contact.

501

We need that feedback.

502

We need to be able to sense check how

we're viewing the world through other

503

people's eyes We need that stimulation

That challenge and if we don't get it you

504

suddenly it gives rise to stuff that It's

almost like it has a breeding ground.

505

Gareth: Yeah,

506

Grace Meadows: Because you've

got nobody challenging that.

507

So,

508

Alex Attwood: well then you do echo

the, you develop the echo chamber of

509

your own sort of self doubt because

there's no one to challenge you on it.

510

Grace Meadows: No, and one of the ways

that really sort of resonates with

511

me on the loneliness is I remember

sitting for hours and hours in basement

512

practice rooms at music college.

513

And thinking, what is

the meaning of my life?

514

I've now practiced this movement between

E and D flat on the bassoon so many

515

times that I can't feel my fingers.

516

What is the meaning of life?

517

You know, why am I doing this?

518

What difference, what impact

am I having on the world?

519

And what contribution am I, am I having?

520

And I think that they're the kind of

existential big life questions that

521

can sort of get in on you, which

I think are good to talk about.

522

think about, but actually if you're

not able to voice them and share

523

them with other people, they can

give rise to serious anxiety.

524

You know, you're sitting there

practicing fingerings and thinking,

525

what difference am I going to make to

the world by learning how to do this?

526

You know, that really can shake you to

the core and make you feel really anxious.

527

And then it's only years later when I'm

sitting in a music therapy clinic room

528

and I'm like, well, I can play that

529

transition really easily.

530

I mean, no one else knows that, but

there's this tiny kind of, it's worth

531

all those hours of isolation, but you

know, was it, you know, so there's

532

just the, the isolation can really

be quite a fertile breeding ground.

533

And, and that's why I think the contact

with other people is so important so

534

that you can sort of reign that in and,

and keep it safe, you know, because

535

it is important to think about those

big things, but not all the time.

536

That's, you know, you've

got to stay present.

537

Alex Attwood: I think you've got to be

smart because, the nature of what we do.

538

I mean, look behind me.

539

I'm, I'm a noise making explosion.

540

Nothing in this room.

541

Is conducive to having other people in the

room with me trying to, trying to work.

542

It's a nightmare, you know, I'm

either going to be bashing, hitting,

543

strumming or doing something.

544

Therefore, in order to keep up that social

interaction that we need so much, you've

545

got to think ahead of the curve and go,

right, well, look, I probably can't have

546

someone in this room with me right now.

547

I can't, you know, if you're in a

solicitor's office, you could talk to

548

other solicitors about soliciting things.

549

I can't talk to her about the latest, API

550

what I'd love to do, just for a little bit

of time, not all day, but just for a bit.

551

So you've got to set up that little

meeting, or, and that's what your

552

coffee mornings are so brilliant

553

Gareth: Oh, I've been bored so

senseless by compressor talk.

554

Honestly.

555

You'd be

556

Alex Attwood: I could be that guy!

557

I would love to bore you!

558

Gareth: I was going to ask you,

Alex, is, you mentioned about after

559

Muggate, uh, the tree incident,

um, that you did seek counselling.

560

Did that unlock anything for you?

561

Were there massive revelations?

562

Was it stuff you already knew?

563

How did that all go?

564

Alex Attwood: Um, I think because

I just hadn't associated where I

565

was at mentally, um, with work.

566

I just tied it all up with, you know, my

rather fortunate middle class background

567

and dived in there for about a week.

568

Well, for however many sessions of

counselling I had, and it really

569

wasn't until, well I'm 43 now, I

said it, it probably took me until I

570

was 41 to go, Ah, maybe being on my

own's not good for me, because I like

571

people, I like being around people.

572

And that's what I mean about the scales

falling, and for me the biggest hurdle was

573

realising that that was, I mean I'm not

saying it's the issue, but it's certainly,

574

you know, you control the variables.

575

And we all need things to live, thrive

and survive, and one of those important

576

things is, you know, you sleep well.

577

Try not to drink too much alcohol,

and you try and be around people

578

who, if, if not at least make you

feel good about being yourself,

579

remind you what it is to be human.

580

And, as Grace was saying, it's

an inherently, lonely and vulnera

581

vulnerabilizing, vulnerabilizing,

uh, career, because there's,

582

there's no structure to it.

583

You don't enter at level one

musician, level one gigging, level

584

two composing, level three mild fame.

585

It's complete free fall.

586

So you're making your own rules.

587

Therefore you have to bounce off

other people who are in the same

588

experience just to be able to compare

notes and to say, Oh God, your middle

589

finger drop off after you practice

going from F to D for three hours.

590

Yes.

591

All right.

592

But then I did a gig.

593

And I nailed it.

594

So it was worth it.

595

And so it gives, it

contextualizes everything.

596

I remember my brother who's

a medic saying to me 10 years

597

ago, I don't know how you do it.

598

He's like, not only do not know how

much you're going to get paid at the

599

end of every quarter, but there's

also no metric with which to assess

600

how you're doing in your career.

601

You can't say I've got, I've got

band H I'm on 25, 000 pounds a year.

602

I'm aspiring to get here.

603

You could be writing the best music in

the world and no one's listening, or

604

it's brilliant to you and no one cares.

605

Or you could be writing music

with boxing gloves and on BBC

606

every day making millions.

607

It's, I mean,

608

Gareth: to that.

609

Grace Meadows: There's, there's

two really, really big themes

610

that you've just, uh, touched on.

611

One is the precarious nature of this

thing that we call love music and having

612

a life with it and working with it.

613

And, the other is how we measure

success and what success looks like.

614

And, I think as an industry, we have

a duty of care for those coming into

615

it to have conversations with them

about what success looks like for them.

616

So I think in the way Alex,

you were talking about, working

617

out what you need as a person.

618

I think that's one of the, one

of the first things that you can

619

do a preventative step you can

do is try and we think we know

620

ourselves and then, you know, mug

gate happens and you go, Oh, hello.

621

Hi.

622

Oh, where have you come from?

623

You know,

624

Alex Attwood: guy?

625

Grace Meadows: but you know, I

think there's something about

626

doing that reflective And I don't

think that that's airy fairy.

627

I think that is about having a level

of emotional and psychological maturity

628

that helps you navigate the world.

629

So there's that piece of work, but there's

also alongside that of what would success

630

look like in my eyes for me and would

help me feel like I'm winning at things.

631

Not necessarily winning at life,

but winning at things because

632

there's lots of ways to win at life.

633

So I think there is a duty of care to

be had around how do we help people

634

think about what success looks like.

635

As you say, Alex, when there's no

structures there and you know, one day

636

you can be gigging and it can be the

best thing and you're on the road for

637

ages and you're having a great time, but

then whoa, All of those gigs dry up and

638

you've got to go back into the studio,

but actually you can't afford the studio.

639

So, you know, that kind of

precarious nature of it sort of

640

goes hand in hand with what success

looks like because success for

641

most people isn't a steady thing.

642

So it's being able to find a way to

hold on to your core, I guess, so that

643

you can navigate that precariousness

and the ups and downs of what your

644

success looks like because Nothing is

645

ever constant.

646

That's the thing, isn't it?

647

Alex Attwood: way of looking at it.

648

And if I'm honest, I don't think other

than putting food on the table and the

649

kind of the natural aspirations of having

a young family, I'd never really got

650

much further than going what I'd like

to provide and I'd like to write music.

651

I would love to have done more telly

stuff and as, and when that became

652

apparent that it wasn't happening,

you kind of shift the goalposts.

653

But I don't think as an actual framed

question, what does that look like?

654

Uh, I'd certainly never thought about it.

655

It was funny you saying hello, who's this

guy who suddenly walked in, something

656

did change at that point, I wasn't

just sort of sitting on the stairs

657

feeling miserable, I also got angry,

I'd get angry in the car, on my own,

658

in ways that I'd never done before.

659

And it became like a

third person in the room.

660

never to that extent again.

661

But certainly, I'd never been

angry about anything before.

662

And now, sort of 15, 18 years

on, that guy's still there.

663

He's a lot quieter, but he's still there.

664

And I'd, I'd, I'd love to shush him

up a little bit more at some point.

665

Gareth: You have, I mean, to an extent

you've actually both answered my next

666

question, which was going to be what

strategies would you give for coping

667

with the challenges that can happen?

668

Alex Attwood: I've got two.

669

I, I, I

670

Gareth: Well, I was going to say, if you

have additional things to say, of course.

671

Oh, I'm sorry.

672

Alex Attwood: talked about your

coffees and you're chatting with peers.

673

So, you know, it's lovely to have

people who love you, but they,

674

they don't really want to know the

intricacies of your job all the time.

675

And that is very reasonable.

676

It's pretty boring.

677

So the two bits I've got are firstly,

get other day jobs or volunteering.

678

So I've done quite a lot of different

volunteering, over the last 10, 15 years.

679

And it was a bit like going to church

when you're a kid, you kind of slightly

680

drag your feet on the way there going,

then you do it and it's not that bad.

681

And then you walk out going, either

because that's it over for another

682

week or because you actually really

enjoyed it and got something out of it.

683

And it's lovely.

684

You just need the diversity of experience.

685

And just to remember, you're not

the only person in the world.

686

It's good just to get a different breath

of air and to remember, you know, you're

687

not the only person who bad things

or good things have happened to you.

688

It's really nice.

689

And actually even.

690

Side hustles.

691

So I have done quite a lot of carpentry

and furniture making And different jobs

692

and the more you do the more you get

out and it's lovely and I find the more

693

It's not the more time I spend out of

the studio It just makes coming back to

694

the studio more of a pleasure because

you miss it It feels like a drudge.

695

But the other thing I was gonna say is so

it's really essential Own your decisions.

696

So it's really, really hard to make it

in any kind of artistic career because

697

of all the sort of, you know, the

lack of direct, um, well, directions

698

and, as we were talking about.

699

I often wondered, well, at what

point do you just say, maybe

700

I'm just not very good at this.

701

I, I I'd like to think the world's

not ready for me, but maybe I

702

literally, I'm just not that guy

to do this thing at this time.

703

And if you do just, just

own it and go, cool.

704

Well, that's all right.

705

So I'm going to take what I've got and

what I want to give, put it elsewhere.

706

I'm still the same person.

707

Or you can say, no, I am going to keep

knocking on the door and it might take

708

another five years and it's still going

to hurt, but I'm going to own that.

709

I'm going to own that it's, ah,

it's painful, but it's on me.

710

It's not on them.

711

I'm not going to blame anyone

else for not hiring me.

712

And that's what happened to me when I ran

out of road with writing documentaries and

713

writing for the BBC, which was, you know,

it was a really nice stage of my career.

714

And after they dried up, I used to

go to London all the time, go out for

715

coffees, everyone was very nice, you

know, loads of stuff fell through.

716

Maybe some of it was personal, maybe some

of it was circumstantial, I don't know.

717

But in the end I kind of went, 20

production companies can't all be wrong.

718

So, come on, let's do something else.

719

At which point I kind of went, well look,

actually this library is really lovely and

720

I am still writing music, so just do that.

721

And I'm not saying no to the

other stuff, but just own it.

722

That's fine, I'll do that now.

723

Because otherwise you just end up blaming.

724

And that's the worst thing, you

mustn't put that on anybody else.

725

You've got to be master

of your own situations.

726

Frustrating when other people change the

course of it in ways that you don't want,

727

but you've got to own it yourself if you

want to move forward to the next bit.

728

Gareth: Brilliant.

729

Grace Meadows: and that really

nicely sets up what I was going to

730

say about taking responsibility, but

then also being really aware of what

731

it is you can and can't control.

732

So to your point about being frustrated,

you know, there are only so many things we

733

have the capacity control as individuals.

734

There are always other forces at work.

735

And, you know, if you don't say, look,

I've done my best at this, but, you know,

736

for whatever reason, it's not worked out.

737

Then you aren't then going to give that

critical voice or your top dog, whatever

738

people, I know everyone's got a different

name for their critical voice inside.

739

Mine's top dog.

740

Um, but you know, but you know, you

can turn around and say, actually,

741

can you just get off my case?

742

I did a really good thing today, or

I've worked on this project and I've

743

done as well as I possibly can on it.

744

So, you know, I can't give any more

of it and I have to just let it go.

745

And then it means that you're not.

746

You're not blaming other people.

747

If you haven't done a good enough job,

well then you can give yourself a hard

748

time about that and you can give yourself

permission to be cross with yourself.

749

But, I think there's something about

being able to take the emotion out of

750

it, ironically, and say, hang on, let's

look at this in a really practical way.

751

Did you give it the time it needed?

752

Did you give it everything

you possibly could?

753

Yes, great, well then, great piece of

work that you can own, move on, next

754

Alex Attwood: That's a

lovely way of looking at it.

755

And it's particularly pertinent

in our field because as jobbing

756

composers, we have almost no agency.

757

We're the last in, first

out to most productions.

758

We're at the whim of probably

five chains of command above us.

759

So, to look at it and go, well,

by my standards, have I performed

760

in a way that makes me proud and

happy with what I've set forward?

761

Because, gosh, if you're only ever

responding to what other people do,

762

you are at the mercy of absolutely

763

Gareth: Yeah.

764

Grace Meadows: Kind of bank of

resources to have to hand is, is

765

again, follows a point of yours,

Alex, about finding your tribe.

766

Find people that, you can have

conversations with where you feel safe

767

professionally, but also who might be

happy to have a conversation with you

768

where it sort of blurs around the edges.

769

Because we are not separate people,

things blend and mix and we are, you know.

770

But I think there is something about

finding people who, who feel like you're

771

a part of their tribe and they don't

have to be doing exactly the same job

772

as you in the industry, but they might

be people who have a similar outlook

773

or, um, people that you aspire to,

you know, achieve as much as they've

774

achieved or whatever it might be, but

find them and then connected to that.

775

You might find yourself in a situation

where you feel you can ask for support

776

or mentoring or coaching in some

way, because actually that can be

777

a really good, sounding board and a

way of holding yourself accountable

778

to your progress or your success.

779

As you're saying, there is no framework

necessarily for success, but if you,

780

if you have a mentoring relationship

with somebody, for example, then you

781

can set out your aspirations and,

and put a timeframe around that.

782

And then you can.

783

You know, sort of be checking in with

them on a regular basis and saying,

784

well, actually I've been really lax.

785

I haven't done anything about this.

786

Well, that's why you're feeling stuck, you

know, or it's not quite as simple as that.

787

I know, but you know, there's, there's

a conversation that you can have

788

there, which keeps you again, going

back to the point that Alex and I both

789

have been making around, you know,

owning stuff and knowing what belongs

790

to you and what belongs out there.

791

If you're desperately seeking

to develop, then actually.

792

That a lot of that sits with you.

793

So you have to put things in

place to help you do that.

794

And having a, a confidant, a mentor,

uh, a trusted somebody can be a

795

good way of, of, doing that really.

796

Alex Attwood: sounds lovely.

797

Where do I

798

sign?

799

Gareth: I think you'll have a queue

800

Grace Meadows: I'll send you my number.

801

Alex Attwood: I love, I love the idea

of, Having some sort of structure and

802

points of reference to work towards.

803

To have someone notice if

you don't do something.

804

Grace Meadows: It's actually a

really powerful thing, right, rather

805

than going, yeah, that's great.

806

You've not done that, but why?

807

And then you get into the,

but the why conversation.

808

What else has been going on then?

809

Why haven't you focused on that?

810

Gareth: Very often it's the

wall of indifference, isn't it?

811

That is the worst thing.

812

Yeah.

813

Oh.

814

Grace Meadows: that's a whole

815

Gareth: That's a whole

816

Grace Meadows: Ha, ha,

817

Alex Attwood: I just

hit you with a wall of

818

indifference just then.

819

Gareth: Yeah.

820

Alex Attwood: back at you.

821

No, it is, it's exactly that.

822

Because we work just so

terribly independently.

823

You say we've got to form

these strategies, find a tribe.

824

Um, and it's actually about, so, as I

said, personally, Sorry to kank on about

825

me again, but I've, I've got these sets

of pals that I play sport with and do

826

loads of things and they are the best

of guys, but again, I can't nibble

827

on to them about what I've been doing

work wise and it's not like they don't

828

ask, they do, but it's that tribe.

829

That you need to find and it's,

yeah, easier now with zoomification.

830

But still a step away.

831

Gareth: So, uh, you've both given some

absolutely fantastic advice over this

832

episode, but I do ask every guest, who

comes onto the show to leave an item

833

and a piece of advice in the music

room for others to find the advice.

834

You might want to just choose the

best bit of advice that you've already

835

given, or you might have another bit.

836

Um, Alex, let's start with you.

837

What item would you like

to leave to begin with?

838

Alex Attwood: Uh, my item, um,

predictably is a musical instrument,

839

but it's a hang drum, uh, handpan.

840

I got all excited about a project

three years ago and bought one.

841

And they are aggressively expensive

and I regret it enormously.

842

I had to sell it more recently to get

myself out of some financial strife.

843

But for the few years that I had it,

it just reminded you why we got into

844

what we're doing in the first place.

845

You'd pass it and it's good.

846

It's quite fun.

847

Because what we do is we play

and it just reminded you just

848

to enjoy playing like a kid.

849

And if you want to spend ages

and work out some sort of crazy

850

diatonic polyrhythm, do that.

851

If you just want to hit it and make

a nice sound with your daughter or

852

your mate, that's also really fun.

853

So have a handpan just to play on and

remember that it's just a handpan.

854

Playing and

855

fun.

856

Gareth: love that.

857

Yes, it's very easy to be distracted

by the business aspects of what we do.

858

So

859

that's, yeah,

860

that's a great item.

861

Grace, your item, what

would you like to leave?

862

Ah,

863

Grace Meadows: playing is

how we learn about the world.

864

It's like everything, isn't it?

865

You know, when we stop playing,

you know, everything stops.

866

I mean, I go to my musical instruments

when I need some release, but I think for

867

me, there's something about permission

that I would leave for somebody to find.

868

Um, cause we're not perfect and, um,

it's okay for it not to always be going

869

in the right direction and to ask for

support, um, and I don't think that

870

we give each other or ourselves enough

permission, so here's a massive envelope

871

with permission in capital letters for

somebody to cash at any point, anywhere.

872

Yeah, absolutely.

873

Permission and play.

874

There you go.

875

Gareth: Yeah.

876

Alex, your advice.

877

would you like to leave?

878

I

879

Alex Attwood: to anyone, I mean, actually

anyone young, whoever comes and sits in,

880

I always say get a different career first,

but that's not going to be my advice here.

881

Like do music for fun.

882

And if it takes off good on you, but

make sure that you've got a teaching

883

qualification or anything else

first, but that's not my main one.

884

And my main one too.

885

People who are struggling,

uh, musicians, composers,

886

particularly who are struggling is.

887

Get out of the box, get out of the

studio as regularly as possible.

888

Do as many different

diverse things as you can.

889

Play squash, help someone do dry stone

walling, um, take an art class, whatever.

890

Just change the landscape in

as diverse a way as possible.

891

Firstly, just to get some fresh wind on

your face and then to make you appreciate

892

when you come back to the studio.

893

Cause it's ultimately our choice that

we do that and we mustn't be its slave.

894

Do it because you want to do it.

895

And the only way that you can

remember that you want to do it

896

is by doing other stuff as well.

897

And we need it because writing music

is a lonely, job And it can make you

898

very vulnerable and you're putting

yourself out there for other people to

899

judge you, whether that's by saying,

I think that's crap or I'm not going

900

to give you any money for it, or

I'm not going to give you the job.

901

So in order to develop the

robustness to deal with that, get

902

out and about, do stuff and then

come back a little bit stronger.

903

Gareth: love that.

904

Fantastic advice.

905

Thank you, Alex.

906

Grace, how do

907

Grace Meadows: Couldn't agree more.

908

Yeah, love that.

909

I think, I think that's absolutely true.

910

And I would add to that,

obviously, use Music Minds Matter.

911

It's there 24 seven.

912

It's there for the whole industry.

913

Pick up the phone.

914

There's always somebody ready to listen.

915

And yeah, explore the

services that are available.

916

And I would also say, whether you're

well into your career, whether you're

917

coming into the industry on your way

out, just, you know, think about what

918

success looks like for you and, hold

onto that because You are not being

919

measured by other people's success.

920

What will make you truly content?

921

And that's what we're looking for

really in life is contentment is to

922

know that you've done as well as you

possibly could when it came to the

923

things that you wanted to achieve.

924

So I think there's something

about setting out that expectation

925

for yourself when we manage our

expectations, we're much happier people.

926

So yeah, work out what

success looks like for you.

927

Everything that Alex said, which was

absolutely spot on, couldn't agree more.

928

And reach out to Music Minds Matter.

929

Gareth: Speaking of which, would

people reach out to Music Minds Matter?

930

Grace Meadows: So you can go

on to our website, Music Minds

931

Matter, or you can give us a ring.

932

0 8 0 8 8 0 2 8 double 0 8.

933

Okay.

934

Gareth: Thank you very much.

935

I'll include the website

in the show notes as well

936

so people can

937

Grace Meadows: lovely.

938

Thank you.

939

Gareth: Alex Atwood, Grace

Meadows, thank you so much for

940

joining me in the music room.

941

Grace Meadows: Pleasure.

942

Thank you.

943

Thank you.

944

Gareth: Thanks for listening to

the Music Room podcast today.

945

If you'd like to know more about the

show or the community that surrounds

946

it, head to music room.community.

947

The link is in the show notes.